5th Circuit Rewrites A Century Of 1st Amendment Law To Argue Internet Companies Have No Right To Moderate

from the batshit-crazy dept

As far as I can tell, in the area the 5th Circuit appeals court has jurisdiction, websites no longer have any 1st Amendment editorial rights. That’s the result of what appears to me to be the single dumbest court ruling I’ve seen in a long, long time, and I know we’ve seen some crazy rulings of late. However, thanks to judge Andy Oldham, internet companies no longer have 1st Amendment rights regarding their editorial decision making.

Let’s take a step back. As you’ll recall, last summer, in a fit of censorial rage, the Texas legislature passed HB 20, a dangerously unconstitutional bill that would bar social media websites from moderating as they see fit. As we noted, the bill opens up large websites to a lawsuit over basically every content moderation decision they make (and that’s just one of the problems). Pretty quickly, a district court judge tossed out the entire law as unconstitutional in a careful, thorough ruling that explained why every bit of the law violated websites’ own 1st Amendment rights to put in place their own editorial policies.

On appeal to the 5th Circuit, the court did something bizarre: without giving any reason or explanation at all, it reinstated the law and promised a ruling at some future date. This was procedurally problematic, leading the social media companies (represented by two of their trade groups, NetChoice and CCIA) to ask the Supreme Court to slow things down a bit, which is exactly what the Supreme Court did.

Parallel to all of this, Florida had passed a similar law, and again a district court had found it obviously unconstitutional. That, too, was appealed, yet in the 11th Circuit the court rightly agreed with the lower court that the law was (mostly) unconstitutional. That teed things up for Florida to ask the Supreme Court to review the issue.

However, remember, back in May when Texas initially reinstated the law, it said it would come out with its full ruling later. Over the last few months I’ve occasionally pondered (sometimes on Twitter) whether the 5th Circuit would ever get around to actually releasing an opinion. And that’s what it just did. And, as 1st Amendment lawyer Ken White notes, it’s “the most angrily incoherent First Amendment decision I think I’ve ever read.”

It is difficult to state how completely disconnected from reality this ruling is, and how dangerously incoherent it is. It effectively says that companies no longer have a 1st Amendment right to their own editorial policies. Under this ruling, any state in the 5th Circuit could, in theory, mandate that news organizations must cover certain politicians or certain other content. It could, in theory, allow a state to mandate that any news organization must publish opinion pieces by politicians. It completely flies in the face of the 1st Amendment’s association rights and the right to editorial discretion.

There’s going to be plenty to say about this ruling, which will go down in the annals of history as a complete embarrassment to the judiciary, but let’s hit the lowest points. The crux of the ruling, written by Judge Andy Oldham, is as follows:

Today we reject the idea that corporations have a freewheeling First Amendment right to censor what people say. Because the district court held otherwise, we reverse its injunction and remand for further proceedings.

Considering just how long Republicans (and Oldham was a Republican political operative before being appointed to the bench) have spent insisting that corporations have 1st Amendment rights, this is a major turnaround, and (as noted) an incomprehensible one. Frankly, Oldham’s arguments sound much more like the arguments made by ignorant trolls in our comments than anyone with any knowledge or experience with 1st Amendment law.

I mean, it’s as if Judge Oldham has never heard of the 1st Amendment’s prohibition on compelled speech.

First, the primary concern of overbreadth doctrine is to avoid chilling speech. But Section 7 does not chill speech; instead, it chills censorship. So there can be no concern that declining to facially invalidate HB 20 will inhibit the marketplace of ideas or discourage commentary on matters of public concern. Perhaps as-applied challenges to speculative, now-hypothetical enforcement actions will delineate boundaries to the law. But in the meantime, HB 20’s prohibitions on censorship will cultivate rather than stifle the marketplace of ideas that justifies the overbreadth doctrine in the first place.

Judge Oldham insists that concerns about forcing websites to post speech from Nazis, terrorist propaganda, and Holocaust denial are purely hypothetical. Really.

The Platforms do not directly engage with any of these concerns. Instead, their primary contention—beginning on page 1 of their brief and repeated throughout and at oral argument—is that we should declare HB 20 facially invalid because it prohibits the Platforms from censoring “pro-Nazi speech, terrorist propaganda, [and] Holocaust denial[s].” Red Br. at 1.

Far from justifying pre-enforcement facial invalidation, the Platforms’ obsession with terrorists and Nazis proves the opposite. The Supreme Court has instructed that “[i]n determining whether a law is facially invalid,” we should avoid “speculat[ing] about ‘hypothetical’ or ‘imaginary’ cases.” Wash. State Grange, 552 U.S. at 449–50. Overbreadth doctrine has a “tendency . . . to summon forth an endless stream of fanciful hypotheticals,” and this case is no exception. United States v. Williams, 553 U.S. 285, 301 (2008). But it’s improper to exercise the Article III judicial power based on “hypothetical cases thus imagined.” Raines, 362 U.S. at 22; cf. SinenengSmith, 140 S. Ct. at 1585–86 (Thomas, J., concurring) (explaining the tension between overbreadth adjudication and the constitutional limits on judicial power).

These are not hypotheticals. This is literally what these websites have to deal with on a daily basis. And which, under Texas’ law, they no longer could do.

Oldham continually focuses (incorrectly and incoherently) on the idea that editorial discretion is censorship. There’s a reason that we’ve spent the last few years explaining how the two are wholly different and part of it was to avoid people like Oldham getting confused. Apparently it didn’t work.

We reject the Platforms’ efforts to reframe their censorship as speech. It is undisputed that the Platforms want to eliminate speech—not promote or protect it. And no amount of doctrinal gymnastics can turn the First Amendment’s protections for free speech into protections for free censoring.

That paragraph alone is scary. It basically argues that the state can now compel any speech it wants on private property, as it reinterprets the 1st Amendment to mean that the only thing it limits is the power of the state to remove speech, while leaving open the power of the state to foist speech upon private entities. That’s ridiculous.

Oldham then tries to square this by… pulling in wholly unrelated issues around the few rare, limited, fact-specific cases where the courts have allowed compelled speech.

Supreme Court precedent instructs that the freedom of speech includes “the right to refrain from speaking at all.” Wooley v. Maynard, 430 U.S. 705, 714 (1977); see also W. Va. State Bd. of Educ. v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624, 642 (1943). So the State may not force a private speaker to speak someone’s else message. See Wooley, 430 U.S. at 714.

But the State can regulate conduct in a way that requires private entities to host, transmit, or otherwise facilitate speech. Were it otherwise, no government could impose nondiscrimination requirements on, say, telephone companies or shipping services. But see 47 U.S.C. § 202(a) (prohibiting telecommunications common carriers from “mak[ing] any unjust or unreasonable discrimination in charges, practices, classifications, regulations, facilities, or services”). Nor could a State create a right to distribute leaflets at local shopping malls. But see PruneYard Shopping Ctr. v. Robins, 447 U.S. 74, 88 (1980) (upholding a California law protecting the right to pamphleteer in privately owned shopping centers). So First Amendment doctrine permits regulating the conduct of an entity that hosts speech, but it generally forbids forcing the host itself to speak or interfering with the host’s own message.

From there, he argues that forcing websites to host speech they disagree with is not compelled speech.

The Platforms are nothing like the newspaper in Miami Herald. Unlike newspapers, the Platforms exercise virtually no editorial control or judgment. The Platforms use algorithms to screen out certain obscene and spam-related content. And then virtually everything else is just posted to the Platform with zero editorial control or judgment.

Except that’s the whole point. The websites do engage in editorial control. The difference from newspapers is that it’s ex post control. If there are complaints, they will review the content afterwards to see if it matches with their editorial policies (i.e., terms of use). So, basically, Oldham is simply wrong here. They do exercise editorial control. That they use it sparingly does not mean they give up the right. Yet Oldham thinks otherwise.

From there, Oldham literally argues there is no editorial discretion under the 1st Amendment. Really.

Premise one is faulty because the Supreme Court’s cases do not carve out “editorial discretion” as a special category of First-Amendment-protected expression. Instead, the Court considers editorial discretion as one relevant consideration when deciding whether a challenged regulation impermissibly compels or restricts protected speech.

To back this up, the court cites Turner v. FCC, which has recently become a misleading favorite among those who are attacking Section 230. But the Turner case really turned on some pretty specific facts about cable TV versus broadcast TV which are not at all in play here.

Oldham also states that content moderation isn’t editorial discretion, even though it literally is.

Even assuming “editorial discretion” is a freestanding category of First-Amendment-protected expression, the Platforms’ censorship doesn’t qualify. Curiously, the Platforms never define what they mean by “editorial discretion.” (Perhaps this casts further doubt on the wisdom of recognizing editorial discretion as a separate category of First-Amendment-protected expression.) Instead, they simply assert that they exercise protected editorial discretion because they censor some of the content posted to their Platforms and use sophisticated algorithms to arrange and present the rest of it. But whatever the outer bounds of any protected editorial discretion might be, the Platforms’ censorship falls outside it. That’s for two independent reasons.

And here it gets really stupid. The ruling argues that because of Section 230, internet websites can’t claim editorial discretion. This is a ridiculously confused misreading of 230.

First, an entity that exercises “editorial discretion” accepts reputational and legal responsibility for the content it edits. In the newspaper context, for instance, the Court has explained that the role of “editors and editorial employees” generally includes “determin[ing] the news value of items received” and taking responsibility for the accuracy of the items transmitted. Associated Press v. NLRB, 301 U.S. 103, 127 (1937). And editorial discretion generally comes with concomitant legal responsibility. For example, because of “a newspaper’s editorial judgments in connection with an advertisement,” it may be held liable “when with actual malice it publishes a falsely defamatory” statement in an ad. Pittsburgh Press Co. v. Pittsburgh Comm’n on Human Rels., 413 U.S. 376, 386 (1973). But the Platforms strenuously disclaim any reputational or legal responsibility for the content they host. See supra Part III.C.2.a (quoting the Platforms’ adamant protestations that they have no responsibility for the speech they host); infra Part III.D (discussing the Platforms’ representations pertaining to 47 U.S.C. § 230)

Then, he argues that there’s some sort of fundamental difference between exercising editorial discretion before or after the content is posted:

Second, editorial discretion involves “selection and presentation” of content before that content is hosted, published, or disseminated. See Ark. Educ. Television Comm’n v. Forbes, 523 U.S. 666, 674 (1998); see also Miami Herald, 418 U.S. at 258 (a newspaper exercises editorial discretion when selecting the “choice of material” to print). The Platforms do not choose or select material before transmitting it: They engage in viewpoint-based censorship with respect to a tiny fraction of the expression they have already disseminated. The Platforms offer no Supreme Court case even remotely suggesting that ex post censorship constitutes editorial discretion akin to ex ante selection.17 They instead baldly assert that “it is constitutionally irrelevant at what point in time platforms exercise editorial discretion.” Red Br. at 25. Not only is this assertion unsupported by any authority, but it also illogically equates the Platforms’ ex post censorship with the substantive, discretionary, ex ante review that typifies “editorial discretion” in every other context

So, if I read that correctly, websites can now continue to moderate only if they pre-vet all content they post. Which is also nonsense.

From there, Oldham goes back to Section 230, where he again gets the analysis exactly backwards. He argues that Section 230 alone makes HB 20’s provisions constitutional, because it says that you can’t treat user speech as the platform’s speech:

We have no doubts that Section 7 is constitutional. But even if some were to remain, 47 U.S.C. § 230 would extinguish them. Section 230 provides that the Platforms “shall [not] be treated as the publisher or speaker” of content developed by other users. Id. § 230(c)(1). Section 230 reflects Congress’s judgment that the Platforms do not operate like traditional publishers and are not “speak[ing]” when they host usersubmitted content. Congress’s judgment reinforces our conclusion that the Platforms’ censorship is not speech under the First Amendment.

[….]

Section 230 undercuts both of the Platforms’ arguments for holding that their censorship of users is protected speech. Recall that they rely on two key arguments: first, they suggest the user-submitted content they host is their speech; and second, they argue they are publishers akin to a newspaper. Section 230, however, instructs courts not to treat the Platforms as “the publisher or speaker” of the user-submitted content they host. Id. § 230(c)(1). And those are the exact two categories the Platforms invoke to support their First Amendment argument. So if § 230(c)(1) is constitutional, how can a court recognize the Platforms as First-Amendment-protected speakers or publishers of the content they host?

Oldham misrepresents the arguments of websites that support Section 230, claiming that by using 230 to defend their moderation choices they have claimed in court they are “neutral tools” and “simple conduits of speech.” But that completely misrepresents what has been said and how this plays out.

It’s an upside down and backwards misrepresentation of how Section 230 actually works.

Oldham also rewrites part of Section 230 to make it work the way he wants it to. Again, this reads like some of our trolls, rather than how a jurist is supposed to act:

The Platforms’ only response is that in passing § 230, Congress sought to give them an unqualified right to control the content they host— including through viewpoint-based censorship. They base this argument on § 230(c)(2), which clarifies that the Platforms are immune from defamation liability even if they remove certain categories of “objectionable” content. But the Platforms’ argument finds no support in § 230(c)(2)’s text or context. First, § 230(c)(2) only considers the removal of limited categories of content, like obscene, excessively violent, and similarly objectionable expression. It says nothing about viewpoint-based or geography-based censorship. Second, read in context, § 230(c)(2) neither confers nor contemplates a freestanding right to censor. Instead, it clarifies that censoring limited categories of content does not remove the immunity conferred by § 230(c)(1). So rather than helping the Platforms’ case, § 230(c)(2) further undermines the Platforms’ claim that they are akin to newspapers for First Amendment purposes. That’s because it articulates Congress’s judgment that the Platforms are not like publishers even when they engage in censorship.

Except that Section 230 does not say “similarly objectionable.” It says “otherwise objectionable.” By switching “otherwise objectionable” to “similarly objectionable,” Oldham is insisting that courts like his own get to determine what counts as “similarly objectionable,” and that alone is a clear 1st Amendment problem. The courts cannot decide what content a website finds objectionable. That is, yet again, the state intruding on the editorial discretion of a website.

Also, completely ridiculously, Oldham leaves out that (c)(2) does not just include that list of objectionable categories, but it states: “any action voluntarily taken in good faith to restrict access to or availability of material that the provider or user considers to be obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, excessively violent, harassing, or otherwise objectionable.” In other words, the law explicitly states that whether or not something falls into that list is up to the provider or user and not the state. To leave that out of his description of (c)(2) is beyond misleading.

Also notable: Oldham completely ignores the fact that Section 230 pre-empts state laws like Texas’s, saying that “no liability may be imposed under any State or local law that is inconsistent with this section.” I guess Oldham is arguing that Texas’s law somehow is not inconsistent with 230, but it certainly is inconsistent with two and a half decades of 230 jurisprudence.

There’s then a long and, again, nonsensical discussion of common carriers, basically saying that the state can magically declare social media websites common carriers. I’m not even going to give that argument the satisfaction of covering it, it is so disconnected from reality. Social media literally meets none of the classifications of traditional common carriers. The fact that Oldham claims, that “the Platforms are no different than Verizon or AT&T” makes me question how anyone could take anything in this ruling seriously.

I’m also going to skip over the arguments for why the “transparency” bits are constitutional according to the 5th Circuit, other than to note that California must be happy, because under this ruling its new social media transparency laws would also be deemed constitutional even if they now conflict with Texas’s (that’ll be fun).

There are a few notable omissions from the ruling. It never mentions ACLU v. Reno, which seems incredibly relevant given its discussion of how the internet and the 1st Amendment work together, and is glaring in its absence. Second, it completely breezes past Justice Kavanaugh’s ruling in the Halleck case, which clearly established that under the First Amendment a “private entity may thus exercise editorial discretion over the speech and speakers in the forum.” The only mention of the ruling is in a single footnote, claiming that ruling only applies to “public forums” and saying it’s distinct from the issue raised here. But, uh, the quote (and much of the ruling) literally says the opposite. It’s talking about private forums. This is ridiculous. Third, as noted, the ruling ignores the pre-emption aspects of Section 230. Fourth, while it discusses the 11th Circuit’s ruling regarding Florida’s law, it tries to distinguish the two (while also highlighting where the two Circuits disagree to set up the inevitable Supreme Court battle). Finally, it never addresses the fact that the Supreme Court put its original “turn the law back on” ruling on hold. Apparently Oldham doesn’t much care.

The other two judges on the panel also provided their own, much shorter opinions, with Judge Edith Jones concurring and just doubling down on Oldham’s nonsense. There is an opinion from Judge Leslie Southwick that is a partial concurrence and partial dissent. It concurs on the transparency stuff, but dissents regarding the 1st Amendment.

The majority frames the case as one dealing with conduct and unfair censorship. The majority’s rejection of First Amendment protections for conduct follows unremarkably. I conclude, though, that the majority is forcing the picture of what the Platforms do into a frame that is too small. The frame must be large enough to fit the wide-ranging, free-wheeling, unlimited variety of expression — ranging from the perfectly fair and reasonable to the impossibly biased and outrageous — that is the picture of the First Amendment as envisioned by those who designed the initial amendments to the Constitution. I do not celebrate the excesses, but the Constitution wisely allows for them.

The majority no doubt could create an image for the First Amendment better than what I just verbalized, but the description would have to be similar. We simply disagree about whether speech is involved in this case. Yes, almost none of what others place on the Platforms is subject to any action by the companies that own them. The First Amendment, though, is what protects the curating, moderating, or whatever else we call the Platforms’ interaction with what others are trying to say. We are in a new arena, a very extensive one, for speakers and for those who would moderate their speech. None of the precedents fit seamlessly. The majority appears assured of their approach; I am hesitant. The closest match I see is caselaw establishing the right of newspapers to control what they do and do not print, and that is the law that guides me until the Supreme Court gives us more.

Judge Southwick then dismantles, bit by bit, each of Oldham’s arguments regarding the 1st Amendment and basically highlights how his much younger colleague is clearly misreading a few outlier Supreme Court rulings.

It’s a good read, but this post is long enough already. I’ll just note this point from Southwick’s dissent:

In no manner am I denying the reasonableness of the governmental interest. When these Platforms, that for the moment have gained such dominance, impose their policy choices, the effects are far more powerful and widespread than most other speakers’ choices. The First Amendment, though, is not withdrawn from speech just because speakers are using their available platforms unfairly or when the speech is offensive. The asserted governmental interest supporting this statute is undeniably related to the suppression of free expression. The First Amendment bars the restraints.

This resonated with me quite a bit, and drove home the problem with Oldham’s argument. It is the equivalent of one of Ken White’s famed free speech tropes. Oldham pointed to the outlier cases where some compelled speech was found constitutional, and turned that automatically into “if some compelled speech is constitutional, then it’s okay for this compelled speech to be constitutional.”

But that’s not how any of this works.

Southwick also undermines Oldham’s common carrier arguments and his Section 230 arguments, noting:

Section 230 also does not affect the First Amendment right of the Platforms to exercise their own editorial discretion through content moderation. My colleague suggests that “Congress’s judgment” as expressed in 47 U.S.C. § 230 “reinforces our conclusion that the Platforms’ censorship is not speech under the First Amendment.” Maj. Op. at 39. That opinion refers to this language: “No provider or user of an interactive computer service” — interactive computer service being a defined term encompassing a wide variety of information services, systems, and access software providers — “shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another content provider.” 47 U.S.C. § 230(c)(1). Though I agree that Congressional fact-findings underlying enactments may be considered by courts, the question here is whether the Platforms’ barred activity is an exercise of their First Amendment rights. If it is, Section 230’s characterizations do not transform it into unprotected speech.

The Platforms also are criticized for what my colleague sees as an inconsistent argument: the Platforms analogize their conduct to the exercise of editorial discretion by traditional media outlets, though Section 230 by its terms exempts them from traditional publisher liability. This may be exactly how Section 230 is supposed to work, though. Contrary to the contention about inconsistency, Congress in adopting Section 230 never factually determined that “the Platforms are not ‘publishers.’” Maj. Op. at 41. As one of Section 230’s co-sponsors — former California Congressman Christopher Cox, one of the amici here — stated, Section 230 merely established that the platforms are not to be treated as the publishers of pieces of content when they take up the mantle of content moderation, which was precisely the problem that Section 230 set out to solve: “content moderation . . . is not only consistent with Section 230; its protection is the very raison d’etre of Section 230.” In short, we should not force a false dichotomy on the Platforms. There is no reason “that a platform must be classified for all purposes as either a publisher or a mere conduit.” In any case, as Congressman Cox put it, “because content moderation is a form of editorial speech, the First Amendment more fully protects it beyond the specific safeguards enumerated in § 230(c)(2).” I agree.

Anyway, that’s the quick analysis of this mess. There will be more to come, and I imagine this will be an issue for the Supreme Court to sort out. I wish I had confidence that they would not contradict themselves, but I’m not sure I do.

The future of how the internet works is very much at stake with this one.

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Comments on “5th Circuit Rewrites A Century Of 1st Amendment Law To Argue Internet Companies Have No Right To Moderate”

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That Anonymous Coward (profile) says:

What in the, and I cannot stress this enough, fuck is this?

Again have we tested the water lines in these courthouses for lead?
Perhaps he was hypnotized by paxtons eye…
But ummm the words unfit for the bench leap to the front of my mind…
This is the sort of ruling one would expect in a moot court where the professor was seeing if any students would stand up to an obviously mentally distressed Judge.

We really really need to do something with this whole people rejecting reality and inserting their own like its real… especially when they have power.

Rocky says:

Re:

We really really need to do something with this whole people rejecting reality and inserting their own like its real… especially when they have power.

I’m not so sure that this is about people rejecting reality per se. Consider how long it took for the ruling to be released, I think that time was spent to come up with any kind of rationale (aka taking things out of context, conflation, misinterpretation, misquoting and just plain batshit angry ranting) for the ruling – all fueled by the indignation that some aren’t allowed to metaphorically taking shits on other peoples porches.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Here’s a pretty big difference between the two: Mike has since said that having a license to spectrum is not the same as owning that spectrum; by contrast, you have never once admitted that there is a difference between “public house” and “public housing” and have actually doubled down on your original claim multiple times.

Anonymous Coward says:

Isn’t there some kind of minimum intelligence required to be a Federal judge, perhaps the ability to read at, say, the 9th grade level?

This is an opinion like Dobbs, where the judge first decides on his desired outcome and then hunts around for something, anything, to support his conclusion while disregarding precedent, common sense, and reality. Definitely need term limits for judges; maybe an age limit, too.

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PaulT (profile) says:

Re:

“Isn’t there some kind of minimum intelligence required to be a Federal judge”

Apparently not.

“Definitely need term limits for judges; maybe an age limit, too.”

I’m not sure if you notice this, but Judge Cannon, who is currently obstructing procedures against a certain orange con artist who has been caught hoarding government documents, is young enough for most of her peers to agree that she has no business being there with so little experience. Term limits won’t do anything if the people installing them don’t care about competence. In fact, I presume they prefer younger judges, since their lack of experience makes them more easily controlled.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Today we reject the idea that corporations have a freewheeling First Amendment right to censor what people say. Because the district court held otherwise, we reverse its injunction and remand for further proceedings.

I am old enough to remember that during the Net Neutrality debate, many on the right were making statements that it’s an Internet Access Provider’s 1st amendment right to determine how to manager their network and which sites they allowed their customers to view.

Funny how times have changed… or at least the businesses being targeted.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Re:

‘Companies have a right to run their business without government interference in the form of regulations!’

‘The companies are telling you to bugger off, something about not wanting to be associated with such toxic individuals and groups.’

‘Like I said, companies deserve heavy government interference in the form of regulations!’

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Benjamin Barber says:

Re: Re: Mike Buries the Lede again

Some how the Supreme Court in Pruneyard Shopping allowed the states to deny the right of malls from censoring speech, because the first amendment doesn’t protect speech that doesn’t belong to the mall, and nobody is going to associate the mall itself with the speakers in it, yet he somehow thinks that this appellate court judge is wrong for the same reasons.

Somehow he thinks that it is twitter’s own free speech rights to censor people, yet what section 230 does is to immunize platforms because it clearly isn’t twitters speech.

Well, either its twitters speech and they are responsible for the speech on their platform, or it isn’t their speech and they are not responsible for the speech on their platform, you don’t get the best of both worlds.

Mike is a corporate shill.

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Strawb (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Well, either its twitters speech and they are responsible for the speech on their platform, or it isn’t their speech and they are not responsible for the speech on their platform, you don’t get the best of both worlds.

Tell me you don’t understand the 1st Amendment and Section 230 without telling me you don’t understand the 1st Amendment and Section 230

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

All 230 really does is protect the first amendment rights of the platform owners/staff by preventing them from being sued for exercising those rights so the only ‘financial models’ that might be undercut are ones based upon first amendment rights like allowing/disallowing speech of their choosing and preventing people from suing them for what users post.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Which might as well be the same thing in practice as a company only having to pay a small amount of legal fees due to a lawsuit versus a massive amount will have a big impact on their choice to engage in the action that triggered/might trigger the lawsuit.

If you know you might have to pay a thousand bucks for doing something you’re much more likely to be willing to do it than if you know you risk paying hundreds of thousands for doing that same thing, so the ability to get a case dismissed early is not an insignificant thing.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 Martillo v. Twitter Continues in Court Since July 2, 2021

It is highly likely that in this round of litigation, ridiculous Zeran-based caselaw will at least be identified to be based on the logical fallacy of denial of the antecedent.

In the next round in trial court, I will demonstrate that Section 230 only applies to 1996 (dialup) Internet On-Ramp or 1996 Access Provider technology and has no relevance to a 2022 social medium platform.

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Benjamin Barber says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Public accomidations

The first amendment right to “free association” didn’t protect the rights of restaurants to kick out national socialists, when they were sued under the Unruh Civil Rights act, nor did it protect the rights of other public accommodations to discriminate either on the basis of race or in the instance of Pruneyard Shopping on the basis of viewpoint.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 Making the First Amendment a Pretextual Legitimization for Discrimination

Neither a blog host nor a provider of a mass announcement system (e.g, AT&T MANS) has ever considered written or audio narrative,

  1. which was available in a hosted blog or
  2. which was hosted by a mass announcement system,

to be the speech either of the blog host or of the provider of the mass announcement system until now.

This First Amendment claim is purely a pretextual excuse for discrimination against some classes of people because white racists or white elitists

  1. want to deny non-whites, non-Europeans, or conservatives full use of an open forum, which has been established in a government-supported government-designated public forum, or
  2. want to deny non-whites, non-Europeans, or conservatives access to a place of public accommodation for exhibition or for entertainment.

For 40 years I have been writing documents to be filed in the Court of Appeals for the DC Circuit or in the Supreme Court of the United States. I have learned that a lot of Judges and Justices on these two courts really seem to enjoy identifying pretextual efforts to legitimize inequitable or unlawful behavior.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 How Often the Ignorance of a Dumb White Racist Betrays the Dumb White Racist

While a higher Court may under certain circumstances review an individual order of a lower Court while the case remains before lower Court, a full review of the case is not allowed until the lower Court dismisses the case finally from its adjudication.

My attorney, who died before Martillo v. Twitter was filed, identified a procedural rule which made it possible for a case to be reviewed before the Defendants were even summoned before the lower Court. Thus, I did not have the delay and expense of a trial before putting my case before a higher Court for review.

In most situations, after trial court proceedings that could require a year before final dismissal by the lower Court, six months to a year or slightly more passes before appellate review of a case completes. Because Martillo v. Twitter involves extremely complex issues, the time period of review of Martillo v. Twitter may be on the longer side, but it would be entertaining if a favorable opinion and order issued before the Twitter v. Musk trial because such an opinion and order would render Twitter’s presumptive value less than nothing.

On the whole, McMahon’s strategy has halved the time frame for Martillo v. Twitter to reach SCOTUS by right of appeal and not by petition to SCOTUS for writ of certiorari to the Court of Appeals for the First Circuit. Unlike discretionary grant of certiorari, appellate review by SCOTUS is not discretionary.

So the dumb white racist can giggle all he wants until every depraved racist social platform is bankrupted by the judgment against it.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 The Ignorance of a Dumb White Racist Continues to Betray the Dumb White Racist

US law distinguishes among speech, publication, distribution, and conduct in numerous ways that often pertain to level of scrutiny and to level of protection under the First Amendment.

Title II of the 1964 CRA pertains to conduct and is Constitutional because the power of the federal government to regulate commerce trumps First Amendment protection that is associated with conduct.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 1986 Village Inn

Yes. In 1986 the Village Inn in Torrance California refused service to 4 neo-Nazis wearing swastika armbands. The ACLU filed suit under California’s Unruh act for unlawful discrimination. People have claimed that even here on this blog that the “political identification” section of the Unruh act only applies to employment but the courts extended this to all services long long ago. Once the judge let the Unruh complain go forward the Village Inn was forced to settle.

As I have said many many times. You just cant read the law. You have to read the case law as well.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Irrelevant. Private businesses and individuals have the right to not want to associate with speech they disagree with.

It is also worth noting that many activists do criticize businesses for the speech transmitted using their services or that is associated with them even if it wasn’t their own speech.

Finally, you have explicitly stated that you want to hold Twitter responsible for speech it hosts. How that is not treating that speech as its own speech I have no idea.

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Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:

Every time someone drags Pruneyard into the light they are just signaling that they are fucking idiots and I’ll explain why:

Pruneyard doesn’t allow anyone waltzing into a shopping mall to say what they and how they want. When it’s political speech they need to come to an accommodation with the mall owner or follow the mall’s rules so they don’t disturb other patrons. If they are found to be disruptive they will be escorted from the premises.

Do this sound familiar? I can’t imagine why…

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Not a 1st Amendment Issue

“If they are found to be disruptive they will be escorted from the premises.”

Which has nothing to do with the 1st Amendment. What Prunyard attempted to argue to the court was that allowing speech would be considered an endorsement of that speech and therefor violate their frist Amendment rights by compelling speech.

The court resoundingly did not agree. No reasonable person would consider speech at a venue that hosts speech as the venues speech.

When people make this argument that hosting is forcing speech they are proving that they are not reasonable persons. They are … you know … morons.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

the Supreme Court in Pruneyard Shopping allowed the states to deny the right of malls from censoring speech

Except it didn’t. Current jurisprudence regarding Pruneyard says that shopping malls in California can’t prevent the expression or dissemination of speech in places in malls that are analogous to public spaces elsewhere (e.g., food courts). Spaces for foot traffic and inside stores don’t qualify for that.

the first amendment doesn’t protect speech that doesn’t belong to the mall

…fucking what

he somehow thinks that this appellate court judge is wrong for the same reasons

Tell us you don’t understand freedom of association without telling us you don’t understand freedom of association.

he thinks that it is twitter’s own free speech rights to censor people

Twitter has never censored anyone. To wit: Donald Trump lost his Twitter account and that orange shithead can still dig his hole deeper speak his mind on any platform that will have him⁠—including his own.

what section 230 does is to immunize platforms because it clearly isn’t twitters speech

Yes, that’s right: Section 230 grants immunity from legal liability to platforms for third-party speech so long as no one who works on/for said platform helped create or publish that speech. (That’s how Backpage got in trouble.)

either its twitters speech and they are responsible for the speech on their platform, or it isn’t their speech and they are not responsible for the speech on their platform

There’s a third option, too: Twitter isn’t responsible for third-party speech, but it can still boot that speech (and the speakers thereof) off the platform because Twitter is a privately owned service that can set and enforce the terms of using that service. Nobody has a right to use Twitter. Trump getting booted should’ve taught you that lesson.

Mike is a corporate shill.

[citation needed]

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

freedom of association has always been white racist code for racist exclusion

Yeah, no. Freedom of association is about the freedom to associate with a person or group of people without the government telling you “no, you can’t do that”. That applies to religious and political groups as well.

The flipside of freedom of association, much like the flipside of freedom of religion, is the freedom to not associate (or not be associated with) a person or group of people. You can’t be free to associate if you’re not free to say “no thank you”.

Twitter has every right to refuse association with any user that violates its rules. No one has the right to force their speech onto Twitter, which is a privately owned interactive web service. You can spam a bunch of comments all over this website with all kinds of legalese gobbledygook, but you can’t change the fact that you don’t have⁠—and will never have⁠—the right to free reach.

After all, if you were to have that right, so would I⁠—and I don’t think you’d want me compelling you to host my speech on your website.

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Tanner Andrews (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Some how the Supreme Court in Pruneyard Shopping allowed the states to deny the right of malls from censoring speech, because the first amendment doesn’t protect speech that doesn’t belong to the mal

Actually, no. In Prune Yard v. Robins, 447 U.S. 74 (1980), the First Amendment was not at issue. The question was whether state requirements of public access for speech constituted a ``taking” for Fifth Amendment purposes. The Supremes held that it did not. Prune Yard at 83.

The state requirement of public access was limited, and there was no impariment of value. Prune Yard at 83. There was no Federal right to conduct expressive activity in shopping centers. Prune Yard at 80. This is strictly a California state right. Prune Yard at 82.

You may want to read the cases before asserting rubbish about what they say. This is obviously not mandatory, and in fact failure to read the cases may qualify you for a position on the US 5th Circuit.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

“Actually, no. In Prune Yard v. Robins, 447 U.S. 74 (1980), the First Amendment was not at issue.”

Shut up!!! Just shut up!!! If you get your legal analysis from mike you are a idiot.

“(c) Nor have appellants’ First Amendment rights been infringed by the California Supreme Court’s decision. The shopping center, by choice of its owner, is not limited to the personal use of appellants, and the views expressed by members of the public in passing out pamphlets or seeking signatures for a petition thus will not likely be identified with those of the owner.” Pruneyard Shopping Center v. Robins, 447 U.S. 74 (1980)

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Anonymous Coward says:

It’s become more apparent in the past few years that people’s trust in American institutions was rather naive. But lately it feels more like even the alarmists didn’t see the extent to which it was true.

What do you do even enough people in such positions of power cease to care about precedence? Shaming them is useless as they’re already very open and shameless about what they’re doing.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

'I reject your reality and substitute my own!'

Well that explains why it took so long for the full ruling to come out, it must take some real effort to be that delusional and disconnected from reality and manage to cram all of your insanity and boneheaded stupitity into legal speech.

This isn’t just making up new laws it’s making up new realities for those laws to operate in, one with only the most tenuous connection to the world around them, and while I’d like to think that it will be appealed and the idiots who wrote this get a hearty benchslap at this point I have less than zero trust that the Supreme Court will get it right if it means passing up a chance to stick to to their enemies, so at this point it’s certainly looking like a number of companies need to look into blocking any user unfortunate enough to live in the part of the country overseen by these lunatics.

ML2 (user link) says:

Re: Re: Re: (I really should just set up an account here at this point)

True, but from what I understand Kagan was probably only in the dissent on the injunction for reasons unrelated to the actual merits of the case. It’s extremely unlikely that she will rule differently from the other liberal justices if this actually goes to court.

Assuming Kagan rules sanely, all that is needed is Roberts to rule sanely (very likely) and for either Kavanaugh or Barrett to be consistent with their previous opinions. I suspect the latter to be vastly more likely than not to occur.

So on the one hand I am quite optimistic this will end up sane in the end. On the other hand, the fact that we are even at the point where the probability of a bad SCOTUS ruling on this is even non-negligible is concerning.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Many liberals are misunderstanding and over reacting to RvW because they don’t understand legal separations.
RvW granted a right in practice that did not and does not exist in law.

It’s up to the federal congress to set federal law. In the absence of a federal law, the state law is pinnacle. This has nothing to do with current party politics.

As it stands the court has a majority of the court is both strong constitutionalists and pro-separation of power.

That’s a good thing. It is highly unlikely this court will carve out free speech restrictions.
I half-hope a real obscenity case winds up before them before (if) the Democrats expand the court. As an end all be all to speech restrictions in law.

A combined pair of cases that strike down compelled speech AND removes “obscenity” restrictions would clearly and completely open up the ability of artists.

ML2 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Regarding RvW.

I disagree with your take on Dobbs, which was a bad ruling even if one thinks RvW was shaky simply on account of how disruptive and damaging it was. That being said, I also don’t think that ruling says much about how this current case will go.

I really hope I’m not wrong here, though. A bad ruling here would be a disaster.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Facts you don’t like is not trolling.

After Brown v. Board of Education we had armed US soldiers and federal marshals facing off against armed state troopers.

Are you saying the SCOTUS shouldn’t have ended segregation because it was “disruptive and damaging”?

Forcing you to defend your presuppositions in all circumstances is not trolling. It sucks. It makes you feel awful. But being exposed as a hypocrite makes anyone feel awful.

The shoe on the other foot test isn’t trolling. Its basic logic that exposes your own hypocrisy.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Well you are an established idiot so I don’t really care you think I’m saying.

I’m not the one who said the supreme court shouldn’t make a ruling because its ” “disruptive and damaging.” I think I specifically said

“That should never be a concern of the court.”

I’m asking ML2 if he thinks the SCOTUS shouldn’t have ruled as it did in Brown v. Board of Education because that was far more disruptive and damaging by any objective measure.

Hypocrites like you and ML2 don’t like being held to first principles. After all this whole debate in this thread is about a specials set of constitutional interpretations Mike and Mike’s Misfists want specifically for BigTech that do not apply anywhere else.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

this whole debate in this thread is about a specials set of constitutional interpretations Mike and Mike’s Misfists want specifically for BigTech that do not apply anywhere else

Again: Everything I’ve argued for in re: protections against compelled speech would apply to all interactive web services regardless of any factors such as size or political affiliation (real or perceived). Just as I believe Twitter shouldn’t be forced to host all legally protected speech, I also believe Truth Social shouldn’t be forced to host all legally protected speech. To say I support one but not the other is bullshit: The law should apply equally to all interactive web services from Twitter to Truth Social to a small-ass Mastodon instance to Techdirt’s comments sections. If one service can be forced to carry speech, all services should be forced to carry speech; to single out Twitter because of its size or Truth Social because of its political leanings would both be bullshit.

Can you say that your desire to make websites host legal speech applies to all interactive web services, or does it only apply to the ones you hate?

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

” The law should apply equally to all interactive web services from Twitter to Truth Social to a small-ass Mastodon instance to Techdirt’s comments sections”

That’s not how regulatory law works at all. Regulatory law has always ramped up with relative size. Small cable providers don’t have to provide any leased access channels. At a certain level they have to provide 1 and it ramps up from their based on their size.

Small employers don’t have to provide health care. Large employers do.

As size ramps up regulatory burden ramps up as well.

Saying ‘If it applies to twitter it should apply to the smallest image board.’ Regulatory law does not and has never worked that way.

Again why are you arguing for some special rules that don’t apply to anyone else?

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 No Dipshit

No dipshit this is regulatory law. The Texas law is a regulation over a public interest. Mike is trying to argue that the law is “Unconstitutional” with a constitutional interpretation the he wants to only apply to tech because if applied to all it would void almost all civil rights and regulatory law.

The issue of the law applying based on size is basic fundamental regulatory law.

Its two separate issues that Mike and Mike’s misfits are trying to conflate.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

It’s almost as if a well sourced argument that explains the subtle issues would be a good retort to what’s already been said.

I won’t expect such a thing from the guy who doesn’t understand the differences between a public house and public property and thought that you need to employ professional bouncers to legally tell someone to leave your private party, but if someone presented a well argued and sourced legal argument against what’s been said I’m sure some would pay attention.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

“I won’t expect such a thing from the guy who doesn’t understand the differences between a public house and public property and thought that you need to employ professional bouncers to legally tell someone to leave your private party”

FYI inventing a narrative in your head is a sign of a personality disorder.

I never didn’t fail to tell the difference between a public house and public property. I said public houses were early rent controlled public housing. Currently about 1/4 -1/3 of all US “public housing” per HUD’s own reports is privately owned rent controlled housing. But you are stuck on a literal definition that anything that says “public” has to mean government owned.

Much like you morons think monopoly can only be its entomological definition of mono poly.

That begs the question how Mike can call his site “TechDirt.” When he very rarely if every has any threads on what would be the etymological definition of technology.

techne logos -would be more along the lines of popular mechanics. Very little of TechDirt has to do with techne logos if any at all.

So you have no trouble using a word in the common vernacular when it suits you. You only go to literal etymological definitions when it suits your argument. This is called definitional fallacy.

The problem is people like you have a hard time understanding the concept of privately owned public spaces. And the public interest over private property put to the public interest.

You are a mentally ill absolutist. Nothing but black and white thinking which is a sign of extreme mental disorder.

I’m guessing you are a borderline. I doubt you would be violent. You are too much of a pussy to be anti-social.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

The problem is people like you have a hard time understanding the concept of privately owned public spaces.

I’m pretty sure that’s your problem, but projection has always been one of your trademarks.

A privately owned open-to-the-public business is under no obligation⁠—ethical, moral, and especially legal⁠—to platform any third-party speech. You have no more right to make a local supermarket put up Klan propaganda than I have to make a white supremacist forum host BLM propaganda. Halleck said as much. In fact, let’s run through the relevant parts:

When the government provides a forum for speech (known as a public forum), the government may be constrained by the First Amendment, meaning that the government ordinarily may not exclude speech or speakers from the forum on the basis of viewpoint, or sometimes even on the basis of content[.]

tl;dr — The state can’t stop people from speaking in a public forum because the state doesn’t like their speech.

By contrast, when a private entity provides a forum for speech, the private entity is not ordinarily constrained by the First Amendment because the private entity is not a state actor. The private entity may thus exercise editorial discretion over the speech and speakers in the forum. This Court so ruled in its 1976 decision in Hudgens v. NLRB. There, the Court held that a shopping center owner is not a state actor subject to First Amendment requirements such as the public forum doctrine[.]

tl;dr — A privately owned open-to-the-public forum can stop people from using that forum as a platform because the owners don’t like certain kinds of speech.

The Hudgens decision reflects a commonsense principle: Providing some kind of forum for speech is not an activity that only governmental entities have traditionally performed. Therefore, a private entity who provides a forum for speech is not transformed by that fact alone into a state actor. After all, private property owners and private lessees often open their property for speech. Grocery stores put up community bulletin boards. Comedy clubs host open mic nights. As Judge Jacobs persuasively explained, it “is not at all a near-exclusive function of the state to provide the forums for public expression, politics, information, or entertainment[”.]

The tl;dr for that comes with the next sentence in the ruling: “In short, merely hosting speech by others is not a traditional, exclusive public function and does not alone transform private entities into state actors subject to First Amendment constraints.”

If the rule were otherwise, all private property owners and private lessees who open their property for speech would be subject to First Amendment constraints and would lose the ability to exercise what they deem to be appropriate editorial discretion within that open forum. Private property owners and private lessees would face the unappetizing choice of allowing all comers or closing the platform altogether. “The Constitution by no means requires such an attenuated doctrine of dedication of private property to public use.” … Benjamin Franklin did not have to operate his newspaper as “a stagecoach, with seats for everyone.” … That principle still holds true. As the Court said in Hudgens, to hold that private property owners providing a forum for speech are constrained by the First Amendment would be “to create a court-made law wholly disregarding the constitutional basis on which private ownership of property rests in this country.” … The Constitution does not disable private property owners and private lessees from exercising editorial discretion over speech and speakers on their property. …

And the tl;dr for that is also from the ruling: “A private entity … who opens its property for speech by others is not transformed by that fact alone into a state actor.”

If you can explain why a privately owned social media service doesn’t fit into the logic of Halleck⁠—other than “but the Internet”, that is⁠—feel free to share that argument. But given how all your other arguments have thus far had the credibility of Alex Jones’s “reporting” on the Sandy Hook massacre, I doubt your next one will fare any better.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11 Yes, Internet Exceptionalism Voids Practically All Antidiscrimination LAW!

I made this point in my petition to SCOTUS for writ of certiorari before judgment of the Court of Appeals for the First Circuit.

Here’s the petition:

Petition for Writ of Certiorari

Here’s the complete document, which I filed in SCOTUS and in the Court of Appeals for the First Circuit.

Petition for Writ of Certiorari + Appendix

Look at the Questions Presented on pp 2-3.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11

with a constitutional interpretation the he wants to only apply to tech because if applied to all it would void almost all civil rights and regulatory law.

You have to address the constitutional questions first, though. The Constitutional question is, Can a privately owned forum for speech be compelled to host speech it doesn’t want to host?

You claim that it’s not a First Amendment question because there’s no confusion about who the hosted speech belongs to. That’s not at issue though. What is at issue is a private entity’s ability to exercise editorial discretion by choosing which of another’s speech is allowed or not allowed to be disseminated on that entity’s property. Editorial Discretion has been stated by Courts to be a form of speech, which means that the First Amendment applies to the government’s ability to restrict it.

All of this is applicable to any private entity, whether online or not.

If the answer is “no, the government cannot arbitrarily restrict editorial discretion,” I don’t see how that adversely impacts civil rights. Not allowing someone to speak because they’re Black doesn’t get 1A protection. Not allowing someone to speak because you find the content of the speech offensive, or even just because it’s beyond the scope of the forum presented, does get 1A protection.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 Putting Down a Social Medium Platform Hard and Permanently!

Prevailing over a social medium platform and bankrupting it for

  1. its violations,
  2. its unlawful actions,
  3. its regulatory transgressions,
  4. its unconstitutional acts, and
  5. its crimes

will provide a most interesting example of the interplay of

  1. state common, civil, and criminal law;
  2. federal statutory civil and criminal law (there is no federal common law);
  3. state and federal constitutional law; and
  4. state and federal regulatory law.

The dumb white racists/elitists,

  1. who support discrimination by a social medium platform against non-whites, non-Europeans, Muslims, Arabs, and Palestinians or against Conservatives and
  2. who are complete tech nitwits,

provide comic relief.

If I hire ClearChannel to put up billboards all over the country to tell the American public

  1. that every president from GHW Bush onward has aided, abetted, and perpetrated genocide according to 18 U.S. Code § 1091 – Genocide, and
  2. that every said president must be arrested, tried, almost certainly convicted, and sentenced to a lengthy prison term or to a quick jab in the arm,

I am publicizing my legally correct opinion.

[Although all the living ex-presidents with the possible exception of Carter are vile and disgusting, Biden is the worst, most depraved, and most evil of the bunch. He was the lead Senate sponsor of § 1091. He is a lawyer. He should understand this criminal statute, in whose enforcement the DOJ has no discretion. A president is not above the law. Harris can run the government while Biden is under arrest or on trial for a heinous capital crime (25th Amendment Section 3 or 4). Justice Thomas loathes Biden. If he were given the opportunity, Thomas would probably volunteer to give Biden the jab.]

In what speech is a social medium platform engaging (forced or otherwise) as it temporarily stores (hosts) content in a database on a backend server while the social medium platform prepares to deliver the content to an end user’s display by message common carriage?

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12 Everyone Overstates, and No One Really Cares About Admiralty Law

The US tends to go along with most of the Law of the Sea.

The Wiki article is correct when it states the following.

The U.S. Congress has given courts power to formulate common law rules in areas such as admiralty law, antitrust, bankruptcy law, interstate commerce, and civil rights. Congress often lays down broad mandates with vague standards, which are then left to the courts to interpret, and these interpretations eventually give rise to complex understandings of the original intent of Congress, informed by the courts’ understanding of what is just and reasonable.

[These complex understandings form a sort of common law, but there is a reluctance due to Constitutional reasons for legal professionals to call such understandings common law.]

Furthermore, in the 1943 case of Clearfield Trust Co. v. United States,[4] the Court recognized that federal courts could still create federal common law, albeit in limited circumstances where federal or Constitutional interests were at stake, Congress had inadequately addressed the situation sub judice, and the application of individual state laws in various jurisdictions would create unacceptable levels of diversity or uncertainty. When fashioning new federal common law, the Court may either adopt a reasonable state law, look to its own precedent, or create new law.

The absence of federal common law is more of a wish or a goal than a fact. Congress has neglected its legislative obligation in many ways.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13 Another white racist dummy and nitwit chimes in!

How am I planning to defraud a court with scienter?

Before Thors [Provoni], only Jhon Smith was stupid enough to openly admit his plans to knowingly defraud courts for money.

The nitwit should tell me my plan. He will provide comic relief.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

In what speech is a social medium platform engaging (forced or otherwise) as it temporarily stores (hosts) content in a database on a backend server while the social medium platform prepares to deliver the content to an end user’s display by message common carriage?

First off, that’s not how that shit works.

Second, Twitter engages in editorial discretion/moderation when it decides what third-party speech is acceptable on its platform⁠—either prior to publication (via the Terms of Service) or after publication (via moderation decisions). Editorial decisions such as those are protected by the First Amendment. Prove they’re not, fucker.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12 The Tech Nitwit Babbles Incoherently

I described exactly how the technology works. I have written several backends and often work as a full-stack developer or as a tech lead in a full-stack development group.

A social medium platform temporarily stores (hosts) content in a database on a backend server while the social medium platform prepares to deliver the content to an end user’s display by message common carriage.

Denial of common carriage is a self-evidencing violation, and Twitter’s ToS is a legal admission of intent to deny common carriage.

Twitter probably owes hundreds of billions of dollars of fines in most US states for denial of common carriage.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

…also don’t think that ruling says much about how this current case will go.

One big aspect we see with this court, currently, is a strong support for the constitution.
To be clear I strongly and deeply believe in states’s rights because that level of separation continues down to my own property.

Anything (including rights) not set forth in the constitution and not set by law is open to lower regulation and/or interpretation.

Right to free speech is codified. Clearly. Forced speech is a violation of free expression because it places a requirement to self-express contrary to intent of will.

Not only do I want these state laws before this very court; as I said I’m begging for another Zicari (Black)/XMedia type case to end up there.
I have nearly no concern these cases would would be judged under the constitution and put an end to both compelled speech AND compelled censorship.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Constitutional Law Includes Common Law Long Established and Not Overruled by the Constitution

State law is as important a component of the US legal system as federal law is. Yet states’ rights ideology is an intrinsic component of US white racism.

One big aspect we see with this court, currently, is a strong support for the constitution.
To be clear I strongly and deeply believe in states’s rights because that level of separation continues down to my own property.

Anything (including rights) not set forth in the constitution and not set by law is open to lower regulation and/or interpretation.

Right to free speech is codified. Clearly. Forced speech is a violation of free expression because it places a requirement to self-express contrary to intent of will.

Hosting is not forced speech but is merely temporary storage of product or of merchandise on the way to its final destination by message common carriage of personal digital literary (or multimedia) property.

Only a depraved white racist/elitist dummy calls such temporary storage hosting in order to create a pretextual legitimization for violation

  1. of common law,
  2. of statutory civil and criminal law, and
  3. of Constitutional law.

Not only do I want these state laws before this very court; as I said I’m begging for another Zicari (Black)/XMedia type case to end up there.

Please provide a correct legal citation of a case. My memory is better than most legal data search systems, but citation of a case by the relatively common last name of a person in “privity” with a defendant is not sufficienty meaningful to me. I believe U.S. v. Extreme Associates, Inc., 431 F.3d 150 (3d Cir. 2005).

I have nearly no concern these cases would would be judged under the constitution and put an end to both compelled speech AND compelled censorship.

[U.S. v. Stevens, 559 U.S. 460, 130 S. Ct. 1577, 176 L. Ed. 2d 435 (2010)](U.S. v. Stevens, 559 U.S. 460, 130 S. Ct. 1577, 176 L. Ed. 2d 435 (2010)) describes exceptions to First Amendment protection and rights that Section 230 cannot override. If one believes that a 2022 social medium platform qualifies to be a 1996 ICS, Section 230 asserts that a 2022 social medium platform cannot be charged with publisher libel for 3rd party content. Yet every major social medium platform can and should be charged with massive group distributor libel due to racist moderation of content and unlawful or illegal removal of a user.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Limiting an Internet Discussion Group is Easy

Here is a typical straw man argument.

Well Judge Andy Oldham, I guess it will be okay when people to go to a church website and discuss the right to abortion? You will not allow that speech to be moderated, correct?

Don’t hold out the website discussion group to the public! Make it a private club or some other type of private organization.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

I do: Not everyone in Florida and Texas share the same beliefs as the kinds of shitheads who would absolutely exploit being able to force their speech onto online platforms. Punishing everyone else for the actions of those shitheads isn’t going to do anyone any good.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

People who fuck around deserve to find out. But innocent people who didn’t fuck around don’t deserve that. Cutting entire states off from the Internet over the actions of the shitheads in charge is so short-sighted and psychopathic that…well, basically, it sounds like a Republican policy.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Hence my last sentence.

The only options left are indeed horrific. It would be preferable to not use them if possible.

But these people cannot be talked to or convinced, at least in any appreciable timeframe. I would not be surprised of they also approved of what happened on Jan 6.

You may be right in that they probably do not deserve those things. But then again, Jan 6 happened.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

I’m not talking about people who back fascism, racism, etc. I’m talking about people who don’t⁠—they don’t deserve to be punished only because they live in the same state as TRASH people. If I feel like I have to clarify my position again even though it was clear enough the first time I expressed it, I’ll know you’re trying to intentionally misunderstand me.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

I heard you loud and clear.

But 73 million voted for Trump. Misled or not, herd mentality is not something to be trifled with. It is highly likely that they also are aching to trigger a second Civil War.

I’m not talking about those people in those states that didn’t vote Trump or don’t back fascism. I’m talking about the 73 million that DID.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

None of that excuses the idea of using preëmptive violence against those people. If anything, attacking them first would help them by making them martyrs for their cause(s). But please, feel free to keep suggesting that someone should assault/kill even a small fraction of those 73 million people. I’m sure that won’t get you on a federal watchlist of some kind~.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

There are sick psychos on both sides to the primary political divide.

And yet, you refuse to denounce the one “psycho” who openly encouraged people to attack American democracy⁠—and refused to say or do anything that might’ve stopped their attack until at least two hours later. Curious. 🤨

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

I denounce every person who violated the law on Jan 6.

I equally denounce the reported violent rhetoric of some of trump’s speakers.

I have yet to see anything that would constitute incitement from trump that day.

I do not know what the timeline was between the speech, reaching the capital, and those that forced entry illegally.
Nor do I know the timeline of the president’s location that day.

So I can’t competently comment on the timeframe between him closing with a request and call for peace and his address later regarding the violence that broke out.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

I don’t know how many other ways I can say trump is a self-centred piece of crap.
As long as the Dems don’t run clinton or another mentally challenged geriatric… or some brains dead moron!
Even then, highly unlikely.

The republican power has shifted into near-militant intolerance. Trump was a better choice for me vs Clinton at the time. Today a Christian rubber stamp… I could fathom
after 22 I’d even, and clearly under duress, vote for the bytch. Immediately vomit, And hope she dies in office.
Because the Republican Party power has become a threat to my family, friends, and self.
Clinton may make the majority of the country (and other countries) die slowly, poor, hungry, … but at least we wouldn’t be tortured.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

Because the Republican Party power has become a threat to my family, friends, and self.

Oh, so now you care about what the GOP does? You should’ve cared in 2016 and 2020, but you didn’t, and look what your votes got you: a former president who thinks he’s above the law, a party of fascists waiting to take over the country because that former president emboldened them thanks to a victory that you helped facilitate, and no Wall to show for it.

I held my nose and voted for Clinton and Biden because they were the only viable candidates running against Trump in their respective elections. You let your grievances against Killary Klinton and Her Demonic Acolytes from Super-Hell cloud your judgment, and you twice voted for a man who had no fucking business being in any political office, but especially the Oval Office. And after four years of Republicans doing their best to tear down the country and an insurrection failing to give them another four years to finish the job, now you want to say you’re concerned about the GOP?

No, son, you don’t get to play the concern card here. Trump was your guy⁠—you gotta own that shit first. You gotta own your role in helping the GOP’s fascism get to the point where you’re finally fuckin’ concerned about them. Only when you express sincere regret for what you helped set in motion⁠—no matter the size of your role⁠—will you get an ounce of pity from me. Until then: Congratulations, you fucked around, and now you’re finding out⁠—so don’t expect anyone else to save you from the grave you dug for yourself.

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PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

“Oh, so now you care about what the GOP does? ”

My observation is that right-wingers only care when they are affected personally. They lack the empathy required to help others until something happens to make it clear that it’s not a personal failing if something happens.

I don’t wish to know what happened to him personally to sway his vote, but I am interested that he’s apparently going against Republicans and not just the ex con artist in chief, and thus might help turn back the voter suppression currently being engaged with.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

I didn’t ask for pity.

it. I held my nose and voted for Clinton and Biden because they were the only viable candidates

That’s generally what I did in 2020.

now you want to say you’re concerned about the GOP

Yes. Today, 2022/9/18. I am concerned about the new wave of GOP power.

I don’t own an anything in the gop extremes. I voted for one single republican one.

you fucked around

I always do. I don’t believe in monogamy, marriage, etc. not sure what that has to do with republicans, other than people like me Lisa them off.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:14

You should’ve cared in 2016

Okay, that’s going a bit too far.

Hindsight is 20/20, and very few would have known that Trump was a Neonazi dumpster fire in 2016. Or that the “Southern Strategy” would lead to a NeoNazi Republican Party.

And Hilary did manage to bump Bernie off the Dem ticket, despite being so unlikeable that FREAKIN’ OBAMA beat her… in 2008.

I speak for myself, and I don’t speak for anyone else.

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PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

“Because the Republican Party power has become a threat to my family, friends, and self.”

Well, congrats on catching up with everyone else I suppose. A shame you couldn’t have realised this before voting them into power, but at least you’ve realised the stakes.

“Clinton may make the majority of the country (and other countries) die slowly, poor, hungry, … but at least we wouldn’t be tortured.”*

*offer of “we” not valid for certain demographics currently being tortured.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

The militant christian power movement in the Republican party is a threat to every person not 100% part of their cult of cloud.

I don’t know of any demographic being tortured today.
I can expect with a far right power train that will change come 24 if the dems can’t get their heads out of the collective arse of a joke.
Because many of these people coming up will bring out racks and balls and kill us all very, very, very slowly.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

I see trump prep a rally. (Be wild)

Kylie Jane Kremer (maybe, maybe not)

Louie Gohmert (clearly violent)

Ted Cruz (maybe, maybe not)

Eric Trump (political promise)

Don Jr (maybe, maybe not)

Rudy Giuliani (clearly violent)

President Donald Trump (peacefully, patriotically)

Josh Hawley (a sign of solidarity)

Once again, no violence from Trump regarding jan 6th. No incitement to violence. Zero
Two others clearly did incite. They should both be in jail

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

No incitement to violence

You really don’t think subtext is a thing, do you. Wow.

Here, have a few video primers on the matter:

And after you’re done watching those (especially the last one), I urge you to take another look at how Donald Trump incited a riot-turned-insurrection.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

No, I do not. There may be rare cases where it happens, but that’s not the general way it works. Most humans are very bad at coming up with an idea and hiding it in a completely different one.

a bunch of conspiracy theorists describing their fantasy’s is not going to change my mind. The idea is in line with the likes of infowars.

And ultimately, anyone who perceives fantastic messages that weren’t stated, or religious idols on their toast, are 100% personally responsible for their own actions.

Hearing secret messages is not a normal thing. It’s a mental deficiency. Usuals acting on secret messages in criminal ways gets you declared legally insane.
Do you really want to go that route?

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LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

Given how fractured both principle parties are at the moment we may finally get an independent chance again.
Trump isn’t where my vote is going regardless of your opinion.
There are some very strong social libertarians in our party now. That could take the votes from both parties.

Strong gun rights. Strong gun ownership reviews.
Property rights. National defence
Redirect funding from international‘commitments’ to social projects here. A quality social base for all legal residents.

The party offers a lot of good to both sides

If the dems run a has-been, still a strong possibility, and the youngins runs a counter social Dem…

The Reps will probably run a new far right “alt” type. I don’t really think it will be trump.
Despite your hatred of him he’s not far right. General rubber stamp not withstanding
If trump runs there may be THREE red options.

Honestly though, the way things stand I don’t see 24 being a common election. There’s no agreement in either party.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

After Jan 6 and the FBI “helping” these fucks “to get them arrested”, let’s just say that even though I am not an American citizen, I am legit scared of my life.

In the US, I’d be considered a “colored” minority and be pressured to join the white-worshipping NeoNazis or get shot on sight.

The stuff I’m suggesting isn’t too far removed from what the US Government has done in the past. And they’re ALREADY horrific enough.

Again, Jan 6 happened. They are already screaming about wanting to murder the rest of us online and it’s likely they WANT to start Civil War 2 as well. I am against political violence when the legal options are still keeping them back, but it’s getting more and more apparent that one should at least prepare for war, metaphorically speaking.

And I’m TECHNICALLY on an Interpol watchlist for geting my identity stolen through means that even I don’t fucking know, I should be joking about what’s another watchlist…

williamperry (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 TRASH

While i totally agree with you, i think the adoption of the acronym “TRASH” is unhelpful and only promotes victimhood or polarization into opposition that non-sloganeering terms would not. For example: ” he’s talking about other people who are racists, sexists, transphobes etc, which I am not. What else is he saying?” As opposed to: “that fucking guy thinks anyone that shops at Walmart should be culled to preserve society!”
Don’t give Hannity et al something easily distorted to their own ends, even for the tiny feeling of satisfaction when type it.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

…okay that was a bit too harsh, and I recognize that, and I apologize for that. But the thing is, I don’t like the idea of having to change what I say for the comfort of conservatives, the people that the TRASH acronym accurately calls out, or (when those two groups overlap) both. That reeks of the kind of overzealous tone policing people often accuse liberals/progressives in general of doing, accurately or not.

If the TRASH acronym doesn’t describe you, it ain’t about you. If it does describe you…well, sucks to be you. But you’re not going to make me stop using the acronym by name-dropping Sean Hannity⁠—that, I can promise you.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

It’s not comforting conservatives, it’s avoiding enabling them. If you are nasty enough about ALL republicans, you’ll make some of their insane victim rhetoric sound plausible to at least some “independent” types. Which will drive at least a few more votes their way.

So you have a choice. Do you want to defeat the nasty, racist and possibly functionally insane subset of the republican party that is currently driving them and their policies, or do you want to say and write whatever comes into your head on the moment. You can do either, and that is your right, but please stop deluding yourself that you can do both, because in Today’s political climate, you can’t.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Do you want to defeat the nasty, racist and possibly functionally insane subset of the republican party that is currently driving them and their policies, or do you want to say and write whatever comes into your head on the moment.

You can’t and won’t make me choose one at the expense of the other⁠—not even at gunpoint.

Tanner Andrews (profile) says:

Re:

Texas and Florida sized holes in the internet

Florida gave the US 11th Circuit a chance to get essentially the same question right, and the US 11th Circuit mostly did. So hurray for the learning experience provided by Florida.

That does not mean that I would not be willing to let your state have DeSantis, or that I would not even be willing to help pay for the cost of a shipping crate. His campaign is using Salesforce (Exact Target) to send spam promoting his campaign and seeking free legal work

If I could fully block them from my systems, I think I would so so. The problem is they seem to have new netblocks in order to avoid such treatment.

radarmonkey (profile) says:

Possible humous outcome

This whole ruling is a dystopian hell-scape, but something humorous struck me:

IF Elon Musk does eventually own Twitter, he would not be able to remove tweets critical of him or his company. Union organization could happen in the open, posts of his cars driving over people cutouts, etc.

Mind you, It will be much better for SCOTUS to smack down the 5th Circuit for this utter stupidity.

Anonymous Coward says:

The problem is the supreme Court is totally unpredictable it goes from making correct good logical decisions to favoring any groups that are religious or Conservative and its a majority republican court
So there’s no guarantee it will go against the 5th circuit ruling

This is about the worse legal decision I have seen since it ignores the basic law about section. 230 by employing twisted tortuous logic to saw its okay for the government to decide exactly what firms of moderation or good bad or illegal for private company’s can carry out and force them to carry content they do not want to publish

Cat_Daddy (profile) says:

Re:

I don’t know about that. I hate the Roberts court with every fiber in my being, but even I don’t think even the SC would defend one of the most delusional legal decisions ever made. At least I hope.

Damn, with AB 2273 passing, Biden’s renewed witch hunt on section 230, and… whatever the fuck this nonsense is. This has got to be the worst week for the Internet.

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Dave Bradley says:

Texas got it right

Just because Techdirt says something is unconstitutional does not make it so. Techdirt says it’s unconstitutional because they do not like it. I am going to Florida in 2023. Now that this law is the law of the land and Florida is going to be my new home sweet home, you remove any of my post, I have a lawyer you remember that. Anyway the Supreme Court will vote on politics not rule of law techjerks. You do not have to post my comment, but you better start publishing them in the future, because my lawyer will be filing papers for court against Techdirt for $100.000. Sounds good and constitutional.

That Anonymous Coward (profile) says:

Re:

You only have the rights republicans say you can have…
Thats why the party of smaller government is now in every womans uterus on guard that she might make a decision for herself without their approval.
(I mean that have no problem with their mistresses getting abortions but no one else…)

Perhaps instead of giggling when the FB AI couldn’t tell the difference between white supremacists & politicians we should have been way more concerned.

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Greg Roy says:

My boss is happy

Hi Techdirt I work for Rep Gaetz of Florida. First of all do not worry, under section 230 you can ban things like porn and harmful contents, that is already in the 1998 Cox/Wyden section 230 bill so no worries there. However if let’s say you run a fix it blog on Reddit for fixing household appliances. Now Congressman Gaetz can run post by me and others and that site to vote for Rep Gaetz..

The site will not be able to remove that post or Reddit will get a lawsuit from the Matt Gaetz for Congress campaign. We can get are message out and you cannot remove those posts. Remember I work for Rep Gaetz and read Techdirt post so know your information is getting to Rep Gaetz. However Rep Gaetz will want to hire more staff in order to boost his campaign online by writing post on comment lines like Techdirt and Techdirt BETTER NOT remove that post. Just waiting till the Supreme Court clarifies this law and trust me Republicans voted for Supreme Court justices that are fair on this issue.

Bruce C., says:

God is an iron...

So I fully expect the Citizen’s United decision to reflect on this. The context is different, but the underpinning of that decision was that citizens have the right to assemble peacefully and organize into groups, which includes online. And just as people get removed from the premises for heckling speeches, people who disturb the peace of the assembly can be removed from online forums.

Tanner Andrews (profile) says:

Re: Re: not in my living room

Expressing an unpopular political view isn’t disturbing the peace

If you express that view on my property, annoying my other guests, then I may deem you a disturbance and show you the road. Our peace is enhanced by your removal.

So, for instance, if a Jew shows up at a meeting of the Illinois Nazis, and they are meeting on private property, they may take exception. Once he expresses his view that Jews should not be killed, they are likely to run him off for disturbing their peace. He may even be guilty of trespass because his license to be on the premises is revoked by the Nazis in charge.

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LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Censoring censors

Just out of curiosity, is there a reason OP doesn’t link to case text? The full file and decisions are available at multiple sites.

I still think the the approach of using discretion over censorship is the wrong approach.
The first amendment veto clearly makes it a private right for private censorship.
Ultimately those supporting private censorship will run into those of us who recognise the act for what it is in traditional terms.
The goal should be to show why private censorship is such an important right.

From there the logical progression of discussion would be who, and how, such censorship should be carried out. Be it corporate, as with deletion, or community, as with flagging and tagging, hiding.

Because policy rules that are flexible will create conflict.
Policy rules that are fixed can never work. Criticker is going through this issue right now: https://www.criticker.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=693

YouTube and Steam generally has the right idea with poster applied tagging. And user applied ability. Despite the fact that they still outright censor some content.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

those supporting private censorship will run into those of us who recognise the act for what it is in traditional terms

You mean “moderation” or “editorial discretion”? Because you keep saying “censorship”, but Twitter has never censored anybody with one of its moderation decisions. Your personal godking of a former president is proof enough of that assertion.

The goal should be to show why [moderation] is such an important right.

Someone who can’t grasp the idea of “compelled speech” (or the compelled hosting of speech) has a bigger problem to deal with.

From there the logical progression of discussion would be who, and how, such [moderation] should be carried out.

Every platform’s moderation is going to be different. One size does not fit all in this context⁠—and the government shouldn’t be trying to make one size fit all.

policy rules that are flexible will create conflict

Yes, they will. That’s why flexible rules are good: Being able to adapt to changing situations is a positive thing.

Life is complicated. Get used to it.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re:

but Twitter has never censored anybody

Was something available that is no longer available? You won’t change my use of the very long standing definition.

Someone who can’t grasp the idea of “compelled speech” (or the compelled hosting of speech) has a bigger problem to deal with.

Does not my statement show I fully understand that private censorship is and should be protected by the first amendment.
Or all my comments about it over the year?

and the government shouldn’t be trying to make one size fit all.

And I said they should? Your doing that invent nonsense thing again.

Yes, they will. That’s why flexible rules are good: Being able to adapt to changing situations is a positive thing.

You totally ignore me point out exactly that.

What are you line item arguing with me for.
Seriously, we’re on the same side here.

Shove your “morality” concerns on things you actually want done.
Sometimes getting it done is more important than why.
Private censorship is protected by the constitution.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Was something available that is no longer available?

Irrelevant. If someone’s speech was deleted from Twitter, that someone can repost their speech elsewhere. Twitter can’t stop them from doing that⁠—ergo, Twitter can’t censor anybody. Again, look at Donald Trump as proof.

I fully understand

If it ain’t about you, don’t make it about you.

Private censorship is protected by the constitution.

The more you call it “censorship”, the more you weaken the idea of moderation being a legal (and often necessary) act for platforms like Twitter. When an act of moderation becomes conflated with an act of censorship, moderation will be banned to prevent censorship.

Congratulations, Lodos⁠—whether you realize it or not, you’re on the side of people who want compelled association between their speech and a platform that otherwise wouldn’t host that speech.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

f someone’s speech was deleted from Twitter, that someone can repost their speech elsewhere.

Exactly. If one company censored you go somewhere else.

ergo, Twitter can’t censor anybody

censorship ‘sensarSHip|
noun
1 the suppression or prohibition of any parts of books, films, news, etc. that are considered obscene, politically unacceptable, or a threat to security

about you

“ Someone”. I didn’t realise you were referring to someone else

The more you call it “censorship”, the more you weaken the idea of moderation being a legal

No, I don’t. The government Prohibiting private censorship is compelled speech. As such unconstitutional.

you’re on the side of people who want compelled association between their speech and a platform

What part ‘must be protected’ is going over you head.?!!?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

suppression or prohibition

When has Twitter suppressed or prohibited anyone from speaking their mind on any platform besides Twitter? If and when that happens, you can say Twitter has censored someone; until that day comes, referring to moderation as “censorship” plays into the hands of the people who absolutely want to have moderation classified as censorship so they can ban moderation altogether.

No, I don’t.

You’re conflating the suppression of one’s First Amendment right to speak freely with someone getting kicked off Twitter for breaking Twitter’s TOS. You’re conflating the act of preventing the publication of speech any- and everywhere with the act of deleting someone’s already-published post from one platform for breaking that platform’s rules. You’re conflating “you can’t say that anywhere” with “we don’t do that here”.

Every time you do that, you push the idea that moderation is censorship no matter what form it takes⁠—even if you take the time to specify that you’re only referring to the deletion of posts. You’re espousing the kind of rhetoric that people who use the “I have been silenced” fallacy can point to as an example of someone agreeing with them.

In short: You implicitly advocate for the forced hosting of speech.

What part [of] ‘must be protected’ is going over you head

The part where you keep referring to moderation as censorship so you can convince other people to call it censorship and associate the term “moderation” with an act of silencing someone’s speech on any and every level possible, thus implying that moderation is a morally heinous act regardless of form or function? Yeah, let’s go with that part.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

when that happens, you can say Twitter has censored someone;

You intentionally ignore the definition. Nearly identical with minor variations in every dictionary.

people who absolutely want to have moderation classified as censorship

Well, it is. Any you can’t ban that because it’s supported by 1A

conflating

I’m not conflating anything; though you accidentally did. Banning a person is not censorship, it’s denial of service. That’s altogether another right.

Every time you do that, you push the idea that moderation is censorship no matter what form it takes⁠—even if you take the time to specify that you’re only referring to the deletion of posts.

That’s because, factually, by long standing definition, deletion of content is censorship.

You’re espousing the kind of rhetoric that people who use the “I have been silenced” fallacy can point to as an example of someone agreeing with them.

Well, they have been, …at that location. They have every right to go somewhere else, as long as else accepts them.

You implicitly advocate for the forced hosting of speech.

I imply nothing. I’m always direct in my statements. Forced speech is a constitutional violation.

thus implying that moderation is a morally heinous act regardless of form or function? Yeah, let’s go with that part.

At least you got something correct. Censorship is reprehensible.
A proper, upstanding member of public society would allow their private community to decide how visible something is. Or is not.
I applaud services/sites like techdirt that take the proper route to moderation.
Ideally we use the defined fact that a company is censoring to convince them to use non-censoring methods of moderation.
But that is completely different and separate from upholding their right to do so.

We have the right to do lots of things in life. Not all rights are good choices.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

You intentionally ignore the definition.

I don’t. What I ignore is the idea that Twitter deleting any post from its service is “prohibiting or suppressing” speech in any way. The only way it would be censorship is if Twitter were to somehow prevent that speech from showing up any- and everywhere else.

Well, it is.

Only in the minds of people like you.

Banning a person is not censorship

Neither is telling them to stop posting stuff that breaks the rules or deleting posts of theirs that break the rules, but you seem to think otherwise.

deletion of content is censorship

Except it isn’t, or else every website that has ever deleted any kind of third-party content⁠—even if said content pops up somewhere else literally a minute after its deletion on the origin site⁠—has engaged in censorship. And since any person or entity that censors someone else is a morally heinous piece of shit…well, you can see where The Implication is going.

Forced speech is a constitutional violation.

And yet, by arguing that moderation is censorship, you’re also arguing against moderation of any kind⁠—and that plays into the hands of people who want to stop platforms from moderating any kind of speech because they, too, think it’s “censorship” for a site to actually enforce its own rules and standards. You are, regardless of whether you like this fact, playing on the same team as people who want to force their speech onto sites that would otherwise refuse to host it.

Then again, you did vote for Trump twice, so that makes perfect sense.

Censorship is reprehensible.

By referring to moderation as censorship, you’re trying to associate the two terms and make an act of moderation seem as “reprehensible” as an act of censorship⁠—regardless of whether that’s your intent. Again, I have to point out that subtext is an actual concept even if you adamantly refuse to believe that.

A proper, upstanding member of public society would allow their private community to decide how visible something is. Or is not.

And yet, because they did that, you would imply that they’re a morally heinous piece of shit. After all, as you keep saying over and over: Moderation is censorship.

I applaud services/sites like techdirt that take the proper route to moderation.

Yes, yes, you think deletion of anything is evil and people should have to suffer through reading hate and bigotry and bullshit instead of having the service’s moderation staff preëmpt the need for users to do that as much as possible by enforcing content bans/deleting content. We get it.

a company is censoring

WHEN IN THE BLOOD-SOAKED SATANIC FUCK DID TWITTER PREVENT DONALD TRUMP FROM SPEAKING HIS MIND?

…anywho. My point: Twitter isn’t “censoring” anyone when they delete posts and ban users. Donald Trump could quite literally repost everything he ever said on Twitter outside of Twitter despite that service shutting down his account⁠—there are plenty of archives of his tweets, after all⁠—and Twitter couldn’t do any-fuckin’-thing to stop him.

We have the right to do lots of things in life.

I’m using my right of free speech to tell you that you’re no better than the people who want to force their speech onto Twitter…

Not all rights are good choices.

…and I’ll keep doing it even if it literally fucking kills me. Which I’m sure would make you happy, since that’d be one less advocate for modera⁠—sorry, censorship in the world.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 Too much non-stated searching

What I ignore is the idea that Twitter deleting any post from its service is “prohibiting or suppressing” speech in any way

the suppression or prohibition of any parts of books, films, news, etc. that are considered obscene, politically unacceptable, or a threat to security ~Oxford

Deletion of a post sounds like suppression to me. Maybe you have some personal modification of that word’s definition as well?

Only in the minds of people like you.

People who know what the definition of the word means?

or deleting posts

See above definition

Except it isn’t, or else every website that has ever deleted any kind of third-party content⁠—even if said content pops up somewhere else literally a minute after its deletion on the origin site⁠—has engaged in censorship.

Exactly. Congrats 🥳

well, you can see where The Implication is going.

I didn’t imply I stated my belief: it is my personal opinion that censorship is a reprehensible act and those individuals that do so are either misguided (hopefully twitter) or scum.

And yet, by arguing that moderation is censorship, you’re also arguing against moderation of any kind…

See, this is where you go off the rails. I argue that deletion is censorship. There are many forms of moderation that are possible with reaching that level.
I support lesser levels of moderation quite happily!

You are, regardless of whether you like this fact, playing on the same team …

Actually I’m a nude streaker in this contest flying a banner that corrects the errors of both sides.

…make an act of moderation seem as “reprehensible” as an act of censorship…

Deleting comments is censorship. Flagging, tagging, folding, moving and linking, age gating, collapsing, colour hiding, … etc, none of those options reach censorship. The material itself hasn’t been barred.

And yet, because they did that, you would imply that they’re a morally heinous piece of shit.

See above on misguided

have to suffer through reading hate and bigotry and bullshit
There are plenty of options for moderation that land short of censorship.

WHEN IN THE BLOOD-SOAKED SATANIC FUCK DID TWITTER PREVENT DONALD TRUMP FROM SPEAKING HIS MIND

When (if) they deleted his comments as a user.
Again after he was denied service to the private platform when they deleted his prior comments.

there are plenty of archives of his tweets, after all

Wow, I guess there has never been a banned book, album, game, or film then. If you could go someplace else and get it?

you’re no better than the people who want to force their speech onto Twitter…

You are entitled to believe that, despite the long list of evidence that I am opposed to forced speech and support non-censorial moderation.

and I’ll keep doing it

Ohkay.
some people still believe the world is flat. Or 6000 years old. Or that humans fought dinosaurs. That vaccines contain microchips.

even if it literally fucking kills me

I sure hope not. Nobody else here engages in detailed discussion and debate.
You have even changed my mind on some occasion. Such as 230. Seeing it as necessary in a country where competent legal representation is not a right in practice

And moving me to research wind farm-bird mortality. Seeing the problem not being windmills but the stupidity of their design.

And quite a few others. Hell, you even tempered my view on censorship, seeing being forced to host a preacher on my front lawn as problematic. (The need for an opaque sound proof chamber for him to use and all).

And, despite you’re beliefs, I find you quite educated.
If nothing else, I respect your opinion, even if I disagree completely.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Deletion of a post sounds like suppression to me.

Except it isn’t. As I’ve pointed out numerous times⁠—to no avail, apparently⁠—Donald Trump had posts deleted from Twitter and he could’ve damn well reposted them on any other social media platform or website (including ones he controls). Suppression, in the context of censorship, demands that the person who’s been censored be disallowed from speaking their mind anywhere. Being told “take your shit off our message board” isn’t the same as “you can’t post that shit anywhere” in either cyber- or meatspace.

censorship is a reprehensible act and those individuals that do so are either misguided (hopefully twitter) or scum

Congratulations, you finally confirmed that you believe everyone should think moderation is as morally reprehensible as censorship. Ta-fuckin’-da~.

I argue that deletion is censorship.

But you keep saying “moderation is censorship”. Even if you specify what kind of moderation, it doesn’t get rid of The Implication.

I support lesser levels of moderation quite happily!

Ibid.

The material itself hasn’t been barred.

And deleting the material from Twitter hasn’t barred it, either. An asshole who posts a racist meme that gets deleted from Twitter can go post it on 4chan, too. Barring material from one site does not, in and of itself, bar that material from all other sites. Moderation is not censorship, even if it’s deletion, because that would mean anyone who has ever deleted spam from a message board or a Discord server or a Fediverse instance is a censor⁠—and I don’t think you have the wheelbarrow-sized balls you’d need to go tell all those people “you’re a bunch of evil-ass censors”.

after he was denied service to the private platform when they deleted his prior comments

Y’know, I didn’t think you’d come out and imply (or say) that losing access to a platform was censorship. Then again, I didn’t think Trump would win in 2016, and we all know how that went.

I guess there has never been a banned book, album, game, or film then. If you could go someplace else and get it?

The point of banning materials is to make it as hard as humanly possible for those materials to be seen by interested parties⁠—and for speakers to make those materials available. Censorship is about the suppression of a voice, of speech, of expression.

A community banning a book from a public library⁠—which robs those who lack the means to buy books of the chance to read that book⁠—is censorship. Being booted from Twitter is not censorship. Any argument you can present to the contrary is bullshit and I absolutely will not treat it with any form of credibility or seriousness.

I sure hope not.

Just so you know: I don’t like liars.

Nobody else here engages in detailed discussion and debate.

You’re lucky I’m too fucked up to know better. My mental defects are the only reason this shit is still going.

You have even changed my mind on some occasion.

Lying will get you nowhere with me. Neither will flattery. If you’re going to kiss my ass, don’t.

you even tempered my view on censorship

And yet, here you are, continuing to conflate moderation with censorship so that the negative connotation of censorship⁠—of suppressing voices, of preventing speech from being expressed⁠—attaches to acts of moderation on private services/in private institutions.

I already told you how I feel about liars, Lodos. Don’t make me tap the sign again.

despite you’re beliefs, I find you quite educated

It’s sincerely nice to know that you’d think I was intellectually disabled for thinking moderation isn’t censorship without my comments convincing you otherwise~. Seriously, thank you for the compliment~. Such a lovely sentiment~.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Y’know, I didn’t think you’d come out and imply (or say) that losing access to a platform was censorship

I didn’t. Tossing him from the platform is denial of service.
Deleting post my is censorship

Being booted from Twitter is not censorship.

I agree. I didn’t say it was. As I explained there is a major difference between denying service and censoring.

If you’re going to kiss my ass, don’t.

It was more putting a gold star in your shirt

You’re still not going to change my mind on censorship. Deleting content is censorship. Even if it’s available elsewhere. See below list of real world cases of private censorship that Paul hasn’t responded to.
There are methods of moderation that stop short of actually censoring.

I don’t give a fuck about a person’s politics in it. I come at it as a fan of art and entertainment that has seen the results of private censorship.

As soon as you capitulate in one spot they come for more.
Cloudflare banned the storm trooper site the demands to censor multi-use platforms became a public deluge.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

It was more putting a gold star in your shirt

You might want to rethink using that phrasing, given your being fascist-adjacent like you are thanks to your votes for Trump.

Deleting content is censorship.

If I tear up, shred, and toss out a copy of a local newspaper inside of my own home, is that censorship? If I do the same thing to a flyer for Jehovah’s Witnesses or some other bullshit that was put in my mailbox, is that censorship?

When someone deletes content from a website/service they own and operate, they’re not censoring the people who made that content; they’re saying “I don’t want this on my property” and getting rid of it. Censorship⁠—as in the kind you should be railing against more than you rail against content moderation⁠—involves the suppression of a voice in a way where they are prevented from speaking their mind. Moderation and editorial discretion don’t do that.

I mean, think about it this way: Under your definition of censorship, literally anybody who has ever deleted a spam message from their email account is a filthy immoral censor what censored an innocent spammer. Is that really the lengths you’re prepared to go for the sake of being able to decry content moderation as an evil that is only surpassed by Killary Clinton?

I don’t give a fuck about a person’s politics in it.

And yet, you show up far more often on articles about content moderation that dings conservatives than you do on articles about censorship that dings everyone else. Curious. 🤨

Cloudflare banned the storm trooper site the demands to censor multi-use platforms became a public deluge.

Two things:

  1. It’s Stormfront, not Storm Trooper.
  2. Yes or no: Should Cloudflare have been forced by law to carry a site made by white supremacists for the sake of disseminating white supremacist propaganda?
LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

When did gold stars stop being awarded for good things?

they’re not censoring the people who made that content

No, they’re not. They’re censoring the content.
But there’s a line between private and public facing. Deleting email is an entirely private act.
It’s interesting nobody responded to my examples of actual real censorship in entertainment posted just below this. And telling.

You speak of my indirect vote for trump as enabling the far right. As much as
I don’t like it, there’s a tiny sliver of truth to it, in his rubber stamp to congressional policy.
But the same goes to deletion. As soon as you ok one thing, they come for all things.

Eg:

Two things:

1) nobody with a working brain cares what the duck turds call themselves
But
2) it proves my point. As soon as they bumped one site, the wolves came demanding more. And more. And then some more!

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

When did gold stars stop being awarded for good things?

Putting a gold⁠—or perhaps yellow⁠—star on someone’s shirt has an Implication. And given how you twice voted for a fascist…well, maybe that’s one Implication you should try harder to avoid.

They’re censoring the content.

Twitter deleted a link to a New York Post story once. Did doing that delete the actual story? If the answer is “no”, fuck off with that line of reasoning. If the answer is “yes”, you’re gonna need to show me the evidence of that happening⁠—and it had better be incredibly fucking convincing.

nobody responded to my examples of actual real censorship in entertainment

Okay, let’s look at those.

Sony is censoring games that are uncensored on other platforms.

Quoting myself: “Nintendo has the right to have its systems associated with specific speech. Any publisher that wants an association with Nintendo must play by Nintendo’s rules. Enforcing a ‘right to publication’ would be akin to the government compelling speech. We shouldn’t want the law to compel Nintendo into allowing (or refusing!) the publication of Doom Eternal on the Switch. That way lies madness.”

Book store choose not to carry titles. Such as Amazon.

That isn’t censorship unless those stores are forced by law to not carry those books. No one has the right to free reach⁠—and that includes having their book stocked in a store that would otherwise refuse to carry it.

Radio stations censor music every day.

Eh, that’s on a thin line between “editorial discretion” and “censorship”⁠—one on which I’m inclined to lean towards the former, even if the “discretion” is essentially a government mandate, if only because the playing of an edited song on the radio doesn’t prevent anyone from finding and listening to the uncut version.

Chain theatres rarely carry NC-17 films.

Again: Free reach isn’t a thing. Theaters have every right to decide what films they will and will not screen. Filmmakers have other avenues for distributing those films, not the least of which is a streaming service like Netflix (as evidenced by its choice to stream Blonde).

Cable companies cut content despite there being no legal reason to do so.

That’s another case of the aforementioned thin line between “editorial discretion” and “censorship”. Cable companies have advertisers (and sometimes investors) to worry about; no one wants to piss off the people paying the bills by running an uncut R-rated film in primetime. (Although, yes, Standards and Practices are generally bullshit.)

my indirect vote for trump

You can shut the absolute fuck up with this “I didn’t vote for Trump, I voted against Clinton” bullshit now. If you marked Donald Trump on your ballot, you directly and knowingly voted for him; no rationalization you can present is going to change that objective fact.

I cast my vote for Joe Biden; that my reasoning was “he’s not Donald Trump” is irrelevant to the fact that I knowingly and directly cast my vote for Biden. They don’t count votes “against [x]”, they count votes “for [x]”. Stop thinking otherwise and accept the responsibility of having voted for Donald Trump, for the love of Christ.

As soon as they bumped one site, the wolves came demanding more. And more. And then some more!

Two. Two more. One was 8kun; the other was Kiwifarms. If you’re seriously going to defend those sites or suggest that Cloudflare should’ve been legally barred from dropping those sites as clients, don’t. I’d rather listen to the most annoying sound in the world on a ten-hour loop.

Also: Cloudflare initially ignored all the requests to drop Kiwifarms until the PR nightmare (and the potential lost income/legal liability) became too much for CF to handle. They didn’t intend to drop Kiwifarms until that breaking point; hell, two or three days prior to that announcement, they put out a whole-ass blog entry that said “we’re not dropping Kiwifarms” without actually saying “we’re not dropping Kiwifarms”.

Whatever “wolves” you think are coming for any site even one inch right-of-center, I can promise you that unless it becomes a serious financial/legal risk, Cloudflare can and will ignore those “demands”. Demanding something is no guarantee that you’ll get it⁠—I mean, I keep demanding that you fuck off, and you still haven’t done it.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

well, maybe that’s one Implication you should try harder to avoid.

What a world you have that the first thing you think of is that. When nearly every school under high school in the country uses gold stars for awards.

twitter

let me know how that works out when you can’t get access to entertainment you want In uncensored form.

We shouldn’t want the law to compel

I didn’t call for one. I pointed to a well documented case of ongoing censorship, the term used by Sony themselves.

No one has the right to free reach⁠

No. And they shouldn’t. But I will continue to point to censorship. Quite a bit film on prime has been censored. And that censorship isn’t noted ip front before purchase.

Cloudflare

https://torrentfreak.com/?s=Cloudflare.
The MPA etc has extensively increased pressure campaigns since storm people was removed.

should’ve been legally barred from dropping those sites as clients

Again you somehow think opposing censorship and forced hosting are the same thing. They’re not.

even one inch right-of-center

I think the torrent industry is about as far left an idea there could be. And the MPA ideas as far right as it gets.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

What a world you have that the first thing you think of is that.

Blame it on the fact that you’re a Trump voter raising the idea of star-on-shirt iconography.

let me know how that works out when you can’t get access to entertainment you want In uncensored form

You let me know when Twitter is responsible for that.

I pointed to a well documented case of ongoing censorship, the term used by Sony themselves.

Can you cite an example of a high-ranking Sony (or a specifically PlayStation) executive calling it “censorship”?

Quite a bit film on prime has been censored.

Can you cite examples of films that have been “censored” on Amazon Prime and how only that “censorship” affects the availability of the uncut versions of those films?

The MPA etc has extensively increased pressure campaigns since storm people was removed.

Gee, it’s almost like asking for the removal of sites that facilitate copyright infringement is an entirely different situation. Imagine that~.

you somehow think opposing censorship and forced hosting are the same thing

I both oppose censorship and support the right of people and private entities to moderate speech on platforms they control however they want. You’re the one who believes they should be unable to delete speech they don’t want to host; you prove that every time you refer to that act as “censorship”.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

Gold star for you is so common parlance.

I don’t think twitter has games.

The video was deleted: but the story is still here
https://nichegamer.com/new-sony-censorship-policy-is-forcing-even-japanese-developers-to-censor-themselves-in-japan/

Jennifers-Body-Unrated-

Hills-Have-Eyes-UNRATED

https://www.amazon.com/Argentos-Dracula-Rutger-Hauer/dp/B00HAUA6F2

Gee, it’s almost like asking for the removal of sites that facilitate copyright infringement is an entirely different situation.

And yet their stance of we don’t censor, we don’t remove, that was a strong defence. Until they dropped sites. Now they lost that ‘anything’ aspect.

Yes, they are different. That’s exactly my point. When you choose censoring for one reason you open up censoring for all reasons.

Soon you wind up with clean-feed style situations.

You’re the one who believes they should be unable to delete speech they don’t want to host; you prove that every time you refer to that act as “censorship”.

That’s a flat out lie.
My position hasn’t changed as was never supporting of forced speech! The right to private censorship is a fundamental right that must be upheld. Not because the act of censoring is proper, but because the alternative is forced speech.

Platforms must have the right to private censorship. They should be encouraged to use less destructive means.

Your choice to change the definition so you don’t have to fight and argue with forced speech supporters is a short-term benefit. Ignoring the long term consequences of where sidestepping the whole for the immediate opens many future fights.

The Hays Code and Comic Book code are prime examples of feature creep.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

Gold star for you is so common parlance.

Then you should’ve said that instead of “gold star on your shirt”, which brings to mind a certain Implication, which isn’t helped by you having twice voted for a fascist.

The video was deleted: but the story is still here

Does that story say a Sony/PlayStation executive explicitly used the term “censorship” to descibe the company’s content policies?

Jennifers-Body-Unrated-

Hills-Have-Eyes-UNRATED

https://www.amazon.com/Argentos-Dracula-Rutger-Hauer/dp/B00HAUA6F2

Okay, and…how does any of that affect the availability of the films through other legal streaming outlets and on physical media?

their stance of we don’t censor, we don’t remove, that was a strong defence. Until they dropped sites.

In case you haven’t noticed, CF hasn’t capitulated on that stance as often as you’re implying it has. While it may drop sites based on Terms of Service violations without much fanfare, the terrible triuumviate of 8kun, Stormfront/Daily Stormer, and Kiwifarms were all dropped because of both TOS violations and massive PR shitstorms surrounding CF’s refusal to drop those sites despite the violations.

Why, it’s almost as if someone in charge at CF⁠—possibly even its CEO!⁠—has some sort of bias for, at a bare minimum, sites that could reasonably be considered right-wing shitpits. Imagine that~.

The right to private censorship is a fundamental right that must be upheld. Not because the act of censoring is proper, but because the alternative is forced speech.

And yet, you keep referring to moderation as censorship, which implies that moderation is as morally reprehensible as censorship. I mean, you want to keep saying “I’m against censorship”, but then you say “I’m in favor of this specific kind of censorship that I still think is morally heinous”. I don’t have that problem because I don’t see moderation as censorship; this problem is yours to fix, and you’ll be doing it alone.

They should be encouraged to use less destructive means.

And what fucking happens when those “less destructive means” don’t accomplish shit and you’ve helped make the “destructive means” either legally impossible to use or too morally repugnant to even consider using?

Your choice to change the definition so you don’t have to fight and argue with forced speech supporters is a short-term benefit.

I’ll fight with those motherfuckers all goddamn day if I have to. Discussions, slapfights, the fucking Cage of Death⁠—you name it, I’m down to clown. What I won’t do is refer to moderation as censorship.

You’re the one who refuses to see the idea that equating moderation (“destructive” or otherwise) with censorship by referring to moderation as censorship is the path to supporting forced speech. You’re the one who refuses to see how making moderation sound evil⁠—and yes, that’s what you’re doing, regardless of how much you say you’re not⁠—puts us on a path to having moderation powers legally curtailed in the name of “stopping censorship”. Your saying “oh but not that kind of censorship” doesn’t change that fact.

The Hays Code and Comic Book code are prime examples of feature creep.

And I don’t support either of those things, in spirit or in deed. If you’re trying to imply that I do, fuck off.

I mean, fuck off in general, but especially if that’s what you’re shooting for.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

which brings to mind a certain Implication

I’m not sure where your getting the idea from but it’s not normal to jump from a gold sticker put on your shirt by a teacher in regular daily life… to a yellow emblem on an armband.

Does that story say
The vide did. Use the wayback machine

Okay, and
It doesn’t. Which is why it’s private, and localised, censorship.

as often as you’re implying it has

I didn’t imply anything. They have not, as far as I’m aware, given in to any of the calls. But they sure opened the door for more regulation.

moderation as censorship

You refer to the censorious act of deletion as if it was a good thing in moderation.
I refer to content deletion, one form of moderation, by its dictionary definition… censorship.

And what fucking happens when those “less destructive means” don’t accomplish shit

Then either your on the lesser side of the localised population, or the site is doing something wrong.

path to supporting forced speech

The only way that can happen is with a new amendment to the constitution.

If you’re trying to imply

You have a thing for looking for issues that simply don’t exist. “Dog whistles” and implication and subtext and such. It’s make believe.

I gave two very good examples of exactly what happens when discretion and moderation are censorious. What starts with a few tiny bits of material escalates to major content censorship across the board.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

The vide[o] did. Use the wayback machine

Did the video show a Sony/PlayStation executive using the word “censorship” in regards to Sony’s PlayStation content practices?

It doesn’t.

Then it isn’t censorship.

they sure opened the door for more regulation.

So what? I don’t see anyone (directly) calling for CF to be forced into protecting sites like Kiwifarms. You’re the one who’s making a huge deal about three shitpits being dropped amid big PR disasters concerning how shitty those pits are/were. Shit, I’m no fan of those three sites, and I’m still not out here calling for CF to drop sites willy-nilly.

You refer to the censorious act of deletion as if it was a good thing in moderation.

It is. You’re the one who apparently thinks deleting offensive speech from a single platform⁠—speech that could easily be reposted somewhere that doesn’t mind hosting it⁠—is a moral crime worthy of some kind of punishment under the law. After all, you keep calling it “censorship”.

the site is doing something wrong

But the site can’t be doing something wrong⁠—it’s not deleting speech, which is apparently the absolute worst thing a website can do.

You have a thing for looking for issues that simply don’t exist.

You have a habit of ignoring the subtext of your own speech. Take a class in communications, goddamn.

What starts with a few tiny bits of material escalates to major content censorship across the board.

Yes, yes, deleting spam eventually leads to banning half of all speech from a globally popular social interaction network. We get it: You think that SIN should be forced into hosting that speech by somehow “hiding” the speech, even if that SIN would otherwise refuse to host that speech.

You claim you’re not on the side of forced hosting of speech. Your entire “moderation is censorship” mindset gives away your true position. Own the truth for once in your life⁠—even if doing so might make you that much less of a shitheaded Trumpist.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:19

supporting the choice to host

You literally keep declaring “deletion is censorship” as if services like Twitter should only ever hide speech without deleting it, no matter how heinous the speech.

I’ve been a moderator/admin on a few different imageboards over the years. I can promise you this: Without being able to delete⁠—sorry, censor⁠—some kinds of speech, no matter how legally protected that speech was, those imageboards would be overrun with that kind of speech. I didn’t have a way to “hide” the offending speech without deleting it; I didn’t have a way to make that functionality, either. And not deleting that speech meant it would still take up space that could otherwise have been used for the speech that people wanted to share on those imageboards.

You’ve clearly never run a website, and it shows every time you say “deletion is censorship”. I’ve had to deal with that shit and yes, deletion is sometimes the best option for content moderation. But you want to take that option away from people…or at least make it seem so morally reprehensible that they refuse to take that option out of the fear that they’ll be seen as censorious bastards on the same level as the conservative assholes who keep banning books in public libraries.

When you can come up with a solution that magically hides offensive speech and restores the space used by that speech so “unoffensive” speech can use said space, you let me know, mm’kay? Until then, you don’t have the right to tell me that “deletion is censorship” unless you’re ready, willing, and able to defend the idea that spam shouldn’t ever be deleted from any interactive web service.

Find the courage to do that or shut the fuck up forever with this “moderation is censorship” crap. Nobody here but the troll brigade is on your side⁠—and that only makes your argument worse.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:20

I’ve been a moderator/admin on a few different imageboards over the years

As I have on forums, and earlier on ISPs, including AOL and CompuServe.
There are cases where I can manually move garbage to the sandbox.
Sometimes the only option is censorship or keeping it up. If deletions are my only choice, I do what’s best for the community.

I also push hard to implement less permanent and destructive measures. With them in place, problems tend to solve themselves.

It is because of my time with CompuServe and SB that I know community moderation works better than censorship.

That’s the aspect you are missing. I support less censorship as an option by supporting more methods of moderation.
Sandboxing. Collapsing. These are viable methods. And these methods should be implemented.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:21

There are cases where I can manually move garbage to the sandbox.

Lots of other services don’t have that choice. Do you really want to shit all over them for deleting content that violates their rules?

If deletions are my only choice, I do what’s best for the community.

And yet, you want to shame other people for doing that⁠—as if they should be able to magically sandbox TOS-violating content even if they literally don’t have the option of doing that⁠—without having to face that shame yourself.

I know community moderation works better than censorship

Deletion is part of community moderation. Just because you call it “censorship”⁠—and demonize people who do it as “censors” who deserve nothing less than to be named and shamed forever over a decision on how to best curate their community that you disagree with⁠—doesn’t make it any less of a valid or useful tactic.

Sandboxing. Collapsing. These are viable methods. And these methods should be implemented.

And if they can’t be implemented…well, what then? After all, you’re against delet⁠—sorry, censorship, and you’re going to shame anyone who does it (except for yourself) as being morally reprehensible assholes, so what can you reasonably expect people to do if their choice is being demonized forever by people like you for “censoring” spammers and rulebreakers or letting their site be overrun by bullshit?

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:22

Lots of other services don’t have that choice. Do you really want to shit all over them for deleting content that violates their rules

As I said before, I always strive to convince the leadership to enable a lessor method. Be that a sandbox, collapsing, community moderation…!

And yet, you want to shame other people for doing that⁠

And have multiple times on this site’s commentary stated I do so with heavy heart. I feel deep shame in doing so. It’s the reason I rarely stay at sites without lessor methods. Today, only one site I moderate at is without any lesser option. That is actually likely to change with new software.

Deletion is part of community moderation

Excluding wiki-like services, no. Deletion is an executive action, not community.

And if they can’t be implemented…

Such a situation doesn’t exist for active sites today. Regardless of format.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:23

I always strive to convince the leadership to enable a lessor method.

Trust me when I say that imageboards don’t tend to have “lesser methods”. What do you expect them to do, let the spam stay up instead of censoring it?

I feel deep shame in doing so.

As someone who has deleted plenty of spam without thinking twice: Bull. Shit.

Deletion is an executive action, not community.

A service like Twitter or imageboards like the ones I modded aren’t democracies⁠—they’re dictatorships. You can ask the community for feedback from time to time, but if you going to leave moderation in the hands of the community, you’ll eventually end up face-to-face with the “Worst People” Problem.

Such a situation doesn’t exist for active sites today.

Tell that to 4chan. Other than /trash/⁠—which is basically a containment board for furry content and other similarly tasteless-for-even-4chan content⁠—its primary method of moderating content is deleting it. But yeah, go try to convince 4chan’s global community that it should be running the show instead of the janitors and mods and such; I imagine that’ll go over real well~.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:24

Tell that to 4chan.

Didn’t work.

Crossboard raids might be illegal under 4chan’s rules, but they happen with enough regularity that even the mods and janitors can’t do shit.

Sandboxing? Only works if the community agrees to fucking stay in their containment boards. There’s a very damn good reason why /mlp/ was hated (crossboard raids being one of them) and everyone hates /pol/. Even /b/.

How do you get rid of Stormfront when they’ve basically moved in, bolted their furniture and decided to not follow the rules? Even WITH the FBI watching the place?

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

“When (if) they deleted his comments as a user.”

If he’s been prevented from speaking his mind, why do I keep hearing his voice and read his raving ignorant lunacy, which is unfortunately still necessary with his remaining a potential candidate in the next presidential election?

Surely if he can’t speak his mind, I shouldn’t be able to hear the barely coherent ramblings from what passes as it?

“Wow, I guess there has never been a banned book, album, game, or film then”

Were those banned by Twitter or the government? The answer to that question is important.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

If he’s been prevented from speaking his mind, why do I keep hearing his voice and read his raving ignorant lunacy,

Because you choose to? There aren’t many platforms hosting him. It’s quite easy to not have to read his comments.

Were those banned by Twitter or the government?
In some cases by the government. In some cases by private companies.

Sony is censoring games that are uncensored on other platforms.
Book store choose not to carry titles. Such as Amazon.
Radio stations censor music every day.
Chain theatres rarely carry NC-17 films.
Cable companies cut content despite there being no legal reason to do so.
Explain how any of those are government bodies censoring.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Because you choose to? There aren’t many platforms hosting him. It’s quite easy to not have to read his comments.

“You can choose not to read Reuters or the news”

Hard not to read his commentswhen EVERYONE< including TECHDIRT, report and write about his bullshit because, I dunno, “it will affect the internet”, including you.

“You can choose not to read Techdirt then”

Take your own advice first. I have to due to copyright being an occupational hazard in my chosen line of work.

Naughty Autie says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Sony is censoring games that are uncensored on other platforms.

Their platform, their decision. The fact the games are available on other consoles means this isn’t censorship.

Book stores choose not to carry titles. Such as Amazon.

Some book stores, not all. See my reply above.

Radio stations censor music every day.

Silencing swears in a song makes it available for radio play, thus the opposite of censorship.

Chain theatres rarely carry NC-17 films.

The fact is that NC-17 movies aren’t made as much because they don’t make as much money in the box office. Talk to Hollywood about that instead of having a go at Cineworld or whatever for something they’re not even doing.

Cable companies cut content despite there being no legal reason to do so.

It’s called moderation, shithead. They cut content so they can show movies like Little Man Tate in the early afternoon instead of after nine o’clock (in the UK). But hey, way to prove you’re an anti-Section 230 troll.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Sony’s internal documents call it censorship

Yes, some booksellers refuse to carry titles

FCC: “ Since the FCC holds power to shut down any radio station, station managers and program directors act to censor their organizations from the inside. So, it might be said that the FCC doesn’t actually censor any station. Instead, they hold penalties, such as written warnings, fines, and the revocation of broadcast licenses, as a means of getting radio stations to police themselves.”
~ Mitch Levy

Theatre: since companies stopped using the MPAA and went unclassified, theatres regularly bar those as well.

In the UK: is not the US. There’s no legal reason for it in the US.

None of that actual censorship has anything to do with 230 which protects hosts from legal culpability for user generated content. Or: a company can host any thing they want that is legal. And could allow users to post anything they want that os legal. And they are not responsible if they host or don’t host or remove some content and not other content.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12 In Court Thanks to Open Moderation, an Anti-Racist Like Me Will Prevail Over a Discriminatory Social Medium Platform!

A discriminatory social medium platform will be ordered to pay tens of trillions of dollars in compensation for civil torts, which are associated with criminal group libel.

One hopes that if a state (like Massachusetts) has a statute that enables the arrest of a probable perpetrator of criminal (distributor) group libel, the state attorney general will swiftly indict and try top management of the discriminatory social medium platform.

There is no discretion in the enforcement of criminal law.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11

Sony’s internal documents call it censorship

While it’s their choice to cripple their quarterly earnings to appeal to kids and their parents, I would also like to add that Jim Ryan has not shown ANY sign of competence since taking over as head of Sony Interactive.

Him forcing Japanese devs to comply with American law despite said devs having NO intention of making the game available in America… is a red flag itself. Not a good one, I might add.

I can’t tell if it’s a form of virtual signalling, another example of “white man knows best” or something more sinister, but these moves do NOT make me feel confident of Jim Ryan’s leadership.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

“Because you choose to? There aren’t many platforms hosting him. It’s quite easy to not have to read his comments.!”

It’s also easy to read them if you chose to. What’s not happening is people who don’t wish to being exposed anyway.

“Sony is censoring games that are uncensored on other platforms.”

How? If the answer is “because they choose to censor on their own platform”, what’s stopping you from moving to the platforms that don’t censor?

“Book store choose not to carry titles. Such as Amazon.”

As has happened since book stores existed.

“Radio stations censor music every day.”

Radio stations have been set up explicitly to play the music others wouldn’t play in the past.

“Chain theatres rarely carry NC-17 films.”

Which they choose to do so, and doesn’t carry legal weight unlike in some countries.

“Cable companies cut content despite there being no legal reason to do so.”

Content on those channels is usually available uncut elsewhere, and even if not are you saying the people who created content should not have final cut?

“Explain how any of those are government bodies censoring.”

They’re not, but you’re yet to explain how a private platform self-censoring is equal to government censorship. When Blockbuster decided not to carry certain uncut VHS tapes, despite their best efforts you could still legally access the uncut version.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

What’s not happening is people who don’t wish to being exposed anyway.

Well, don’t doll or like or link or whatever.

what’s stopping you from moving to the platforms that don’t censor?

Well, I already had the platforms, but yes, I dumped Sony when I found out they were charging me money for games that were missing content.

explain how a private platform self-censoring is equal to government censorship.

It’s not. That’s the point I’ve been trying to get across to a few here for a long time. totally separate issues!

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 No Such Right

No reasonable person would consider speech hosted an any social media site as an endorsement of that speech. Therefore, there is no 1st Amendment right to censor that speech.

I’m sick and tired of stupid people arguing about what stupid people might think. You are stupid. We don’t write our laws or moderate or speech based on your stupidity.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

Did the religious organization open up their online website to public posts? If so, you’re arguing that Twitter shouldn’t have the same right to delete rule-breaking posts as the religious group because of religion⁠—which is a favoring of religious interests that the law of the United States cannot abide under the First Amendment.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

If Twitter deletes a tweet because they find it objectionable, in what way does that not qualify as censorship?

In the way that Twitter deleting a tweet doesn’t stop that tweet from being reposted⁠—by either the person who posted it or someone else⁠—on any and every other website willing to host the speech what got deleted.

nasch (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

In the way that Twitter deleting a tweet doesn’t stop that tweet from being reposted⁠—by either the person who posted it or someone else⁠—on any and every other website willing to host the speech what got deleted.

“Censor” means “to suppress or delete as objectionable.” It does not mean “to suppress or delete as objectionable and prevent from appearing elsewhere.” Unless you can find a dictionary with that definition. I haven’t seen one.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

As soon as we get past the common progressive idea that censorship must be complete and total, which no dictionary says, we can focus on the real issue.

That is the question of what makes a site like twitter et al any different than the foyer of a mall.
Because the real debate is about public spaces and pseudo-public spaces.

That’s the difficult question.
Nobody Denys that a mall is private property hosting the public. Nobody Denys that twitter is a private communications space hosting the public.

I have a serious problem with the idea that a mall must host speech. Because where is the difference between the foyer of the mall and the front foyer of a restaurant?
Laws that ban speech slide on just as much as laws that force speech.
I definitely don’t want some preacher standing on my front doorstep. Nor some end of the world greenie screaming cow farts cause ice cap melts.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

what makes a site like twitter et al any different than the foyer of a mall

A mall is in physical space; Twitter is in cyberspace. A mall has specific areas for people to gather in addition to areas meant for foot traffic and such; Twitter has no such functional equivalent of which I’m aware. A mall can conceivably be asked to let those spaces which function like public gathering spots be treated as such and allow for free and unfettered expression (to wit: Pruneyard); Twitter can’t be asked to do that without infringing on Twitter’s right of association.

How’s that, that good enough for you, Mr. Deletion Must Be Stopped?

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

“Twitter can’t be asked to do that without infringing on Twitter’s right of association”

There is no such right because no reasonable person will take something posted on Twitter as Twitters public speech. There is no compelled association or speech here.

Stephen you are both stupid and insane. The “No Reasonable Person” standard doesn’t apply to you. Your point of view is not a reasonable persons point of view. You are a nut case.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

no reasonable person will take something posted on Twitter as Twitters public speech

Irrelevant. Twitter has the right to choose what speech it will and won’t associate with/host. You show me a law or binding legal precedent that says otherwise and I’ll concede the point⁠. Good luck in finding one, though.

You are a nut case.

Do something about it. 🖕

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

Twitter can’t be asked to do that without infringing on Twitter’s right of association

There is no such right because no reasonable person will take something posted on Twitter as Twitters public speech. There is no compelled association or speech here.

Even taking your assertion that “no reasonable person would take something posted on Twitter as Twitter’s public speech” as true, that doesn’t say anything at all about whether or not forcing Twitter to host such speech infringes on Twitter’s right of association or prove that that isn’t compelled association. You’re conflating “speech” and “association”.

Additionally, that is not the full test regarding compelled speech; it’s no dispositive of the issue.

Finally, that doesn’t stand for the assertion that “there is no such right” for free association.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

“Even taking your assertion that “no reasonable person would take something posted on Twitter as Twitter’s public speech” as true, that doesn’t say anything at all about whether or not forcing Twitter to host such speech infringes on Twitter’s right of association or prove that that isn’t compelled association. You’re conflating “speech” and “association””

They are on in the same because there is no First Amendment right to association. Its an implied right from freedom of speech and freedom of association. No reasonable person would interpret a Tweet as twitters speech so there is no association. This was all asked and answered in Prunyard. The ruling Mike and Mike’s misfits hate.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

there is no First Amendment right to association

The First Amendment literally guarantees the right of free association⁠; to be free to associate, one must also be free to not associate.

No reasonable person would interpret a Tweet as twitters speech so there is no association.

Even if that’s true⁠—and I don’t grant that it is⁠—Twitter still has the same right as any other website owner to choose what speech will be allowed on the site/service. You haven’t offered any citation of law or legal precedent that says Twitter must host all legally protected speech.

This was all asked and answered in Prun[e]yard.

Pruneyard doesn’t apply to Twitter in any way.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:19

Better idea: How about you explain how Twitter is analogous not to a store within a mall, but to a food court in a California mall, which Pruneyard says is analogous to a public gathering spot. Please remember, Mr. Public House-ing, that Twitter isn’t owned or operated by the government or the general public.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:20

You are a fucking idiot!

What matters in Pruneyard is not mall or store. What matter’s in Pruneyard is speech and what a reasonable person would consider speech. Pruneyard established that hosting speech is not an endorsement of that speech. No reasonable person would consider the host to be endorsing the speaker. Therefor there is no compelled speech. So no first amendment right to refuse to host the speech.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:21

Pruneyard established that hosting speech is not an endorsement of that speech.

And that’s still irrelevant. Twitter still has the freedom to choose not to associate with certain kinds of speech; nothing in Pruneyard changes that (no matter what the Fifth Circuit’s ruling says). You can’t cite a law or binding legal precedent that says Twitter must host any and all legally protected speech.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17 Thank You Alan Dershowitz

“Pruneyard doesn’t apply to Twitter in any way.”

Thank you Alan Dershowitz. The same moron saying its not censorship if it isn’t a world wide ban think Pruneyard doesn’t apply to twitter.

5th Circuit Just cited Pruneyard some 30 times you idiot! Once again like Mike you prove you didn’t read the god damn decision.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17 I will make it easy for the white racist supporter of discrimination by a social medium platform!

The nitwit comments.

The First Amendment literally guarantees the right of free association⁠; to be free to associate, one must also be free to not associate.

Here’s the First Amendment.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

There is nary a word about the alleged Freedom of Association.

A white racist, who participates in TechDirt discussion, must murder his mind with the poison of his depraved perverted white racist belief.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18

I has been an implied right from freedom of speech and freedom of assembly, a right expressive association and a right to intimate association.

However, what matters here is Pruneyard. No reasonable person would consider it Twitter’s speech and no reasonable person would consider it Twitter’s association.

Because no reasonable person would consider it Twitter’s speech or Twitter’s association there is no forced speech and no forced association so Twitter and the rest of social media have no Constitutional argument.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:19

Because no reasonable person would consider it Twitter’s speech or Twitter’s association there is no forced speech and no forced association

I’m a generally reasonable person when it comes to speech. (After all, I think literal fucking Nazis should have the right to express themselves in any white supremacist shitpit that will have them.) If Twitter were to knowingly refuse to ban hate speech that violates its rules, I would assume that Twitter is fine with being associated with such speech⁠—that even if it isn’t Twitter’s speech, it is Twitter’s choice to let such speech stay on Twitter.

“But Twitter is so big!” you might say next. Okay, let’s go to a smaller Twitter-like: Mastodon instances. There’s a reason a not-zero number of those instances no longer federate with the flagship instance, mastodon.social, these days: It’s grown too big to be effectively moderated by Gargron alone, and the rest of the mods have apparently stopped doing their jobs. The kind of speech that other Fediverse instances don’t want to deal with keeps showing up on the flagship; if those instances defederate with the flagship, one can reasonably assume that the admins of those instances associate the flagship with that speech.

By the by: If you’re going to claim that all of those people are being “unreasonable”, you’ll need evidence to back that up. Evidence, in this context, is not name-calling, identity-attacking, and suggesting that anyone who uses the Fediverse instead of Twitter is automatically “unreasonable”.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:20 The SCOTUS Says So

I don’t need “evidence” as was argued in this case its prima fascia. The court ruled in Pruneyard that no reasonable person would see the hosting of the speech as the speech of the host.

The FACT that you see hosting the speech as an endorsement and therefor speech proves as rule by the SCOTUS that you are an unreasonable person.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:22 Why?

What matters is why. What the court found is that no reasonable person would consider it the hosts speech. Therefore, a law forcing the host to host the speech was not a violation of the hosts 1st Amendment rights because there is no compelled speech.

When a fucking idiot like Stephen tries to argue that it is the hosts speech he is proving himself under supreme court precedence that he is an unreasonable person.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18

There is nary a word about the alleged Freedom of Association.

The freedom of association is implied by the First Amendment: You can’t freely exercise your religion, express your speech, or assemble with others if you’re not free to refuse exercising a given religion, expressing any kind of speech, or assmble with people whom you would otherwise refuse to assemble. Jurisprudence related to the First Amendment has made this freedom clear whenever it has tackled issues related to associations with speech/religion. You can’t⁠—and shouldn’t have the right to⁠—force me, Twitter, or anyone else who runs an interactive web service into hosting your speech and more than I can⁠—and should have the right to⁠—force you into hosting my speech on a website you run.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:20

Because black folk don’t have a choice wether they are black or not.

You have a choice wether you are a fucking asshole or not.

But regardless of skin color, if somebody comes into my restaurant acting like a fucking asshole, ie you, you bet your ass I will kick them to the curb.

Also, do me a favor, go into Walmart and start yelling racial slurs at the workers and customers. Tell me how long it takes for them to kick you out of their establishment.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:21

“Because black folk don’t have a choice wether they are black or not.”

That has no bearing what so ever on the owners Constitutional rights. Again if your interpretation of the 1st and 4th Amendments is correct why are the Civil Rights Acts Constitutional?

Understand this constitutional interpretation the paid tech shills like Mike have pushed would invalidate most of the civil rights acts.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:22

if your interpretation of the 1st and 4th Amendments is correct why are the Civil Rights Acts Constitutional

When someone steps into the public sphere, you make an implicit compromise with everyone else: Their rights end where another person’s rights begin. When the right of association clashes with one’s right to enter and participate in the public sphere, the first one must generally give way. Only through such a compromise can we have a functioning society. The Civil Rights Act was necessary to create (and legally enforce) that compromise when the “we hope it’ll happen voluntarily” approach was clearly not working out.

The same principle applies to freedom of religion, by the by: You’re free to worship however you please in private, but you can’t go forcing everyone else to worship like you when you’re in public.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:21 Title II Protected Groups Include a Religious Group

A person can change religion, but religious discrimination is illegal.

Racist incitement against a Palestinian, an Arab, a Muslim, an Oriental, or a Black is the normal for a major social medium platform, and the white racist is hardly ever banned from the platform.

I described how white racist European colonial settlers treated my mother’s Jewish Berber family in stolen Palestine, and I was banned from the comments section of the Harvard Crimson.

I also factually pointed out that the treatment my Mom’s family was better than that of my wife’s Palestinian family, whose members were expelled, raped, or murdered by the genocidal white racial supremacist European colonial settlers.

I was honest. I mentioned that members of my father’s family were and are leaders of the white racial supremacist European colonial settlers and since the 2nd Aliya have taken part in the planning of the genocide to which my wife’s family has been subject since Dec 1947.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:22

A person can change religion, but religious discrimination is illegal.

Yes, those two things are true.

So what? It’s not a paradox⁠—it’s the acknowledgement that even if changing religions is possible, being forced to change religions (or specific religious beliefs within a given religion) by the majority is a form of discrimination. The right of free religion must include the freedom to not practice the majority religion; to deny or punish that freedom is to violate someone’s civil rights.

Twitter banning you for whatever reason it banned you doesn’t violate your civil rights unless you can prove it banned you only and specifically because of your religious beliefs. Good fucking luck, you sweet summer fetus.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

“Censor” means “to suppress or delete as objectionable.”

Let’s drill down on that, then.

“Supress” implies a complete inability to speak⁠—an inability to express one’s self as they so wish. Twitter doesn’t do that to anyone if it chooses to delete a post that violates Twitter’s TOS. Nobody has yet proven as much.

“Delete”…well, that one requires a bit more context. Sure, when Twitter gets rid of a post, it deletes that post…but it only does so on Twitter. A post that might not fly on Twitter can easily be reposted⁠—or posted near-simultaneously⁠—on other websites without its presence (or lack thereof) on Twitter affecting its status elsewhere.

To say that Twitter deleting a TOS-violating post is “censorship” is to accuse the company of silencing someone⁠—of violating someone’s right to express themselves freely. You can’t expect me to take that idea seriously when Donald daughterfucking Trump, possibly the most powerful person to have ever been banned from Twitter, can still post anything he wants on his own Twitter-like service.

Also: I don’t call deletion of posts “censorship” because that would mean I “censored” spammers back when I was an imageboard moderator, and I’m not about to let any say that about me without a fight.

nasch (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

Sure, when Twitter gets rid of a post, it deletes that post…but it only does so on Twitter.

And that tweet was only posted on Twitter.

A post that might not fly on Twitter can easily be reposted⁠—or posted near-simultaneously⁠—on other websites without its presence (or lack thereof) on Twitter affecting its status elsewhere.

And that’s a different post, that Twitter didn’t (and cannot) censor.

To say that Twitter deleting a TOS-violating post is “censorship” is to accuse the company of silencing someone⁠—of violating someone’s right to express themselves freely.

It’s just using the word the way it’s defined. I notice that you still have not provided a dictionary that defines censorship in any other way than the way Lodos and I are using it. Can you do so?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

And that tweet was only posted on Twitter.

So what? The tweet being deleted doesn’t prevent the exact same content from being reposted anywhere else outside of Twitter.

that’s a different post

Not if it’s the exact same post with the exact same content posted near-simultaneously on different websites. Or do you not know that automated crossposters are a thing?

It’s just using the word the way it’s defined

And you’re using it in a way that waters down its definition to mean “removing speech someone doesn’t want to host”. You’re literally trying to make “censorship” cover so much ground that it effectively becomes worthless. After all, if deletion is censorship, and spam is legally protected speech (which it is), wouldn’t that mean Twitter deleting spam is a form of censorship⁠—i.e., an act as morally reprehensible as a government tossing someone in jail to shut them up?

nasch (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

Not if it’s the exact same post with the exact same content posted near-simultaneously on different websites.

The same content being posted on a different service is a different post. Illustrated by the fact that it can be deleted from one service and left up on another. If it were the same post, that wouldn’t be possible.

And you’re using it in a way that waters down its definition

I’m just using it the way it’s defined. I understand you don’t like it, but it’s not up to me.

wouldn’t that mean Twitter deleting spam is a form of censorship

Sure.

an act as morally reprehensible as a government tossing someone in jail to shut them up?

Censorship isn’t necessarily reprehensible at all.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

Censorship isn’t necessarily reprehensible at all.

Dude, you’re talking to someone who thinks literal fucking Nazis have every right to express themselves on any website that will host their shitty speech. You don’t want to come at me with that shit, especially since you’re using it as part of an argument that says the act of deleting a post from one website on This Entire God Damn Internet is equally as horrible as the act of tossing someone in jail to silence them. I mean, look at this entire comments section⁠—for bad or for worse, I am not the kind of person who backs down and admits defeat when someone makes a shitty point. Do you really want to spend more time arguing with a stubborn son of a bitch who has far more time on his hands than he should about whether deleting a post from Twitter is the legal, moral, and ethical equivalent of a dictator having a journalist killed?

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

I believe what nasch is saying is that, although Twitter deleting spam is (at least by his judgment) a form of censorship, it is not a morally reprehensible form of censorship like “a government tossing someone in jail to shut them up” is.

Basically, neither of you appear to differ as to moral, ethics, or legal questions on these issues, and the only real disagreement here is almost entirely semantic: What is or is not “censorship” under the dictionary definition? Both of you agree that Twitter deleting or suspending a post or deleting, suspending, or banning a user/account is not morally, ethically, or legally problematic per se, that such is—in fact—a legally protected action, and that the government engaging in any sort of act of censorship is immoral and unlawful.

Neither of you thinks that these two things are the exact same thing by any metric, neither of you thinks that Twitter does not have the legal right to moderate its platform as it sees fit, and neither of you thinks that the government should engage in censorship. The only part where you disagree is whether Twitter deleting spam is a form of censorship, not whether or not Twitter deleting spam is or should be morally reprehensible at all, let alone whether or not that is as morally reprehensible as the government jailing dissenters for their speech.

Absolutely nowhere does nasch say anything like, “deleting a post from Twitter is the legal, moral, and ethical equivalent of a dictator having a journalist killed,” or, “the act of deleting a post from one website on This Entire God Damn Internet is equally as horrible as the act of tossing someone in jail to silence them.” Quite the opposite, actually; while he says that deleting a post from a website is (according to his interpretation of the definition) a form of censorship, he also said, “Censorship isn’t necessarily reprehensible at all,” when you asked if that was “as morally reprehensible as a government tossing someone in jail to shut them up,” which clearly means that he most certainly does not consider the two to be equally morally reprehensible. He’s saying that he doesn’t believe that whether or not Twitter censors someone by deleting a post from Twitter’s site has any implications regarding the morality or legality of such an act at all. You may disagree with that (understandably), but that doesn’t mean you can draw conclusions about nasch’s stance based entirely on your own beliefs about the moral implications of calling something “censorship” when it is clear that you don’t even agree on that, let alone the actual definition of the term.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

If I use a 3D printer to make two identical cubes and place one on my left and one on my right….
If someone comes along with a quick pellet plastic recycler and drops the left cube in, the left cube ceases to exist! The identical right cube remains.
Two posts on two services are independent of each other!

And you’re using it in a way that waters down its definition

Only if one chooses to argue that aspect.
I disagree with the idea supported by forced up… we disagree on aspects of legal standing.

But the definition is solid. Every reputable dictionary uses a slight variation of that definition.

If you want further proof, most advanced thesauri have censor: delete in the list. And the reverse.

There’s no win for you on that.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

Fine. Okay. Let’s say I can’t win. I can at least make one last hail mary play to try, though.

You’ve outright stated that you believe censorship is immoral. You’ve outright stated that you believe the word “censorship” covers the deletion of posts from social media services. You’ve at least implied that you believe the deletion of posts from social media services is immoral.

Yes or no: Do you believe that the act of Twitter deleting spam is legally, morally, ethically, and by dictionary definition the exact same thing as the act of a government official arresting and jailing a reporter for the sake of chilling that reporter’s speech⁠—i.e., that they’re both forms of censorship intended to suppress/violate someone’s inalienable right to express themselves freely?

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

Yes or no: Do you believe that the act of Twitter deleting spam is legally, morally, ethically, and by dictionary definition the exact same thing as the act of a government official…

NO
Nor have I ever said anything close to it. Only the government is prohibited from censorship. Private censorship is a right that must be protected as the inverse of compelled speech.
Private censorship is also a means that I will go to the absolute extreme of possible alternatives before implementing myself. To the strictest sense of site rules.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

Nor have I ever said anything close to it

You have literally referred to deletion as “censorship”. Don’t try to deny that you have; this entire comments section is littered with proof, and you can’t get rid of any of it.

Private censorship

It’s called “moderation”, you gaping asshole.

Private censorship is also a means that I will go to the absolute extreme of possible alternatives before implementing myself.

And it seems like you’re willing to force others into followong along with you, considering how hard you’ve been pushing to make that “moderation is censorship” equivalence⁠—a move that, whether you like it or not, only ever helps the kind of people who want to force Twitter into hosting their speech.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18

You have literally referred to deletion as “censorship”. Don’t try to deny that you have; this entire comments section is littered with proof, and you can’t get rid of any of it.

You asked:

Yes or no: Do you believe that the act of Twitter deleting spam is legally, morally, ethically, and by dictionary definition the exact same thing as the act of a government official […]

Nowhere has he said that those to things are remotely close to being the exact same thing legally, morally, or ethically, let alone all three. On the contrary, he’s explicitly said the exact opposite on multiple occasions, especially legally.

He has said that both are, by dictionary definition, forms of censorship, but a) that’s not the same as saying they are the exact same thing (as he has explicitly distinguished between government-led censorship and both private and local censorship, as he puts it, and that both humans and dogs are—by dictionary definition—animals doesn’t meant that they are the exact same thing, by dictionary definition or otherwise), and b) that certainly doesn’t mean he thinks that they are the same legally, morally, or ethically at all. He has also said that he is morally opposed to at least some cases of what he calls private and local censorship, but that doesn’t mean that he thinks that that is morally the exact same thing as government-led censorship, either. He’s actually said that so-called private censorship should be a right.

Also, you said “and”, meaning that if he disagrees with even one of those, he would necessarily have to say “no” to your question.

So yeah, based on the comment thread and other comments, I fail to see how Lodos is even remotely lying here.

Private censorship

It’s called “moderation”, you gaping asshole.

This is ultimately semantics. While I agree with you for the most part on this, here we’re discussing Lodos’s opinions and assertions, not semantics.

Private censorship is also a means that I will go to the absolute extreme of possible alternatives before implementing myself.

And it seems like you’re willing to force others into followong along with you, […]

No, based upon previous comments, he seems more interested in persuading others through speech and decisions of which platforms used to agree with him.

[…] considering how hard you’ve been pushing to make that “moderation is censorship” equivalence⁠—a move that, whether you like it or not, only ever helps the kind of people who want to force Twitter into hosting their speech.

While I agree that that is likely a consequence of his decision to call moderation a form of censorship, albeit one he believes is protected by the 1A, and that focusing on that definition doesn’t really help, I fail to see how the earlier assertion follows from that. As you imply here, such a consequence is not necessarily an intended or desirable one for him, so I don’t see how you could possibly impute a desire to force others to do the same based on outcomes that he may or may not want or expect.

Playing Devil’s advocate for a moment, he may be the sort who adheres fairly strongly to dictionary definitions and has no desire to change based upon others’ perceptions or misunderstandings. I don’t necessarily agree with that notion, but it is certainly a plausible one that doesn’t impute the sort of intent that you seem to suggest he has.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:19 You know what?

You know fucking what?

Fair points all the way through. 👍

Look, I get…upset about censorship, and doubly so when someone refers to moderation⁠—to acts I’ve carried out while being a moderator⁠—as “censorship”. To imply, even accidentally, that I’m a censor when I have never tried to be anything of the sort of isn’t a bitchslap that I’m going to take with a smile and a “thank you sir may I have another”.

What makes this worse is that, yes, expanding the idea of “censorship” to include moderation decisions like deleting content dilutes the colloquial and social meanings of the word. Yes, by dictionary definitions, deletion is “censorship”. But when people think “censorship”, they will most often think of book bans and journalists being tossed in jail and SLAPP actions more than “Twitter deleted a post”. Trying to conflate acts that tell people to go somewhere else with their speech and acts meant to chill people’s speech everywhere, even if the conflation is accidental, rustles my jimmies in a way that prevents me from unrustling them for a good long while. (To wit: this entire comments section! 😃)

I admit that I engage in hyperbole and exaggeration for the sake of making a point. Sometimes it’s complete bullshit, and I’m willing to own that. At the same time, Lodos is a guy who has flat-out admitted that he doesn’t believe in the concept of subtext⁠—that he literally refuses to read between his own lines when anyone else (but especially me) tells him what’s there is legitimately infuriating. When I get…upset, it tends to fuck with how I interact with people⁠—and not just in the “cursing more often than usual” sort of way.

I’m not proud of being the Cyber Piece of Shit that I am. I’m incredibly fucked up in a significant number of ways, and I’ve yet to fully accept and work through that in a healthy way. This is one of the few outlets for communication and discussion that I have these days, and when someone says something…upsetting, I tend to take that more seriously than I really fucking should.

I’ll apologize for taking things out of context, implying things that really aren’t there, and exaggerating/hyperbolizing to a far greater degree than I should have⁠—apologize to you, to Lodos, and to anyone else to whom I’ve done that bullshit. That behavior isn’t something I want to keep doing, I swear.

But I won’t apologize for being a stubborn son of a bitch about censorship, moderation, and attempts to conflate the two. I ain’t sorry about any of that. 😁

nasch (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:20

I don’t fault you for your stubbornness, but I think you might get further with an approach more like “this might be a more useful way to think about the subject of censorship” and less like “this is censorship, and that isn’t, and if you say otherwise you’re wrong.” One invites discussion, the other provokes defensiveness.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:21

Fair point to you, too. My approach likely stems from having things I’ve done in the past (i.e., deleting posts from imageboards I’ve moderated) being compared to censorship, which gets me defensive from the get-go. Few things make me angrier than someone implying that I’m a fucking censor because I have never knowingly tried to censor anyone…in the sense that I’ve tried to stop them from speaking their mind anywhere, that is. Again: I get that this is shitty behavior and it’s not something I can fix with a snap of my fingers, but I’ll try to keep what you’ve said in mind for future reference.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:22

https://www.techdirt.com/2022/09/16/5th-circuit-rewrites-a-century-of-1st-amendment-law-to-argue-internet-companies-have-no-right-to-moderate/#comment-2424539

Censorship, that is, the deletion of parts of media, the bleeping of songs, the cutting and editing of games —to such an extent some games become impassable— is something that has been a thorn in my consumption choices for as long as I’ve been alive.

It’s something that quickly makes my blood boil.
I admit my arguments may, push into the world of extreme for point of argument at times. So I’m sorry.
I can become an arse when it is a topic I feel passionate about.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:25

I will also try my best moving forward to reduce my default use of censorship regarding moderation, seeing as how many crapstacks are misusing it

For the record: This is essentially what those of us who opposed your usage of “censorship” in that way were asking of you. You can be against deletion as a form of moderation all you want; we’ll disagree (and I’ll think it’s weird as hell), but that’s not a huge deal. Referring to it as “censorship” is what opens the door for other people to use what you’re saying as a pretext to say “look, he thinks Twitter deleting speech is censorship, just like I do” and use that to build a consensus around the idea.

Yes, there is a dictionary definition of “censorship”, but there is also a colloquial or social definition. When people try to conflate the down-to-the-letter dictionary definition with acts like “destructive” content moderation, they expand the social definition and make “censorship” cover things it was never meant to cover. The end result of such conflation can be witnessed when right-wingers complain that Twitter suspending/banning them or a book publisher refusing to publish their books or literally anyone criticizing their odious views is “censorship”.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:21

You make a great point!

Clearly I have some very strong base opinions having grown up in the “censorship” era: the 70s film, 80s music, 90s games.
I’ve seen how aggressively many who want actual censorship fight to wiggle in and make more extensive lockdowns.

I apologise, especially to STS, to whom I may be becoming increasingly aggressive.
You make a great point!

Clearly I have some very strong base opinions having grown up in the “censorship” era: the 70s film, 80s music, 90s games.
I’ve seen how aggressively many who want actual censorship fight to wiggle in and make more extensive lockdowns.

I apologise, especially to STS, to whom I may be becoming increasingly aggressive.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:22

I’ve seen how aggressively many who want actual censorship fight to wiggle in and make more extensive lockdowns.

For the record, I want to say that my support for deletion as a form of content moderation/community curation is support not for full-blown censorship, but for protecting the right of association (wherein one must be free to not associate if they are to be free to associate). I don’t see Twitter upholding its rules as a backdoor to the kind of censorship I associate with conservatives/Trumpists getting books banned from public libraries.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:19

I’m my lifetime, I’ve had a hard stance. I grew up loving both Horror films, and video games.
Both from a very young age. Both with a semi-tolerant to content family.
I grew up living punk and metal, quickly growing into extreme metal.
In my life time they came for my
My movies. My music. My games. My internet.

I don’t care what political opinion attacks something. As soon as someone calls for a boycott or ban, I am on a mission to find and consume whatever it is.

I’ve always been against censorship for that history. BUT what sent me over the edge on a crusade of sorts, was Sony.
Their censorship (and yes, a Japanese representative used that exact word, in Japanese, publicly more than once), had taken what has become one of my all time favourite games, Bunny Must Die, and made it unplayable.

BMD is a Metroidvania throwback staring a young teen girl. With a difficult but necessary rolling summersault flip jump. And Sony destroyed it.
All because developers decided that a teen in a short dress should cover her crotch and not expose it.

Rather than, say, lengthen the skirt, match colour the panties, any logical method… or even not carry the game at all, they removed the jump.

Part of the blame falls on the developers for agreeing… sure.
But it showed me the head-in-arse levels Sony would mandate.

It’s not the only game literally ruined by Sony. But it was my trigger. YouTube is filled with pissed off gamers ranting about legitimate Sony censorship issues. Even more for less game-breaking reasons.

After living through the PMRC and ESRB issues, I see yet again government involvement in a place it has no business. Either side, more or less.
Because game ratings were all but a direct mandate from the government. And as such they have forced a tempering of games released. Then, Sony went a step further. Like Prime editing videos, neither inform the consumer up front.

And that is where my ‘content restrictions should be ‘explicit’ comes from.
When the MPA rates a movie they list a “for”
When the esrb rates a game they list a “contains”

I understand there are, major, issues in such a method on a living changing service… but it’s where I’m coming from.
I want to know exactly what has been removed and why.
That alone is why my default is always some sort of collapsing.
I believe that the viewer should have the choice to view the content. And not be forced

That’s exactly and completely the opposite of forcing speech.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:20

I believe that the viewer should have the choice to view the content. And not be forced

By the same token, shouldn’t the platform that will carry the speech have the right to choose whether it will carry that speech in its entirety instead of being forced into doing so?

In the second column I wrote for this site, I brought up the notion of Nintendo being forced to either carry or not carry DOOM Eternal⁠—specifically, that Nintendo should be allowed to choose if and how it would carry the game (uncut, edited, or not at all) without government intervention. I still believe in that idea, even after what Nintendo has done in the past in regards to having games edit out “controversial” content.

Both sides of the coin must remain free to choose what content will and won’t be on a console: consumers from an “I shouldn’t be able to stop other people from playing this on their consoles” standpoint, console creators from a “we shouldn’t be forced into letting this game be published on our console” standpoint. I can guess that this position might rub you the wrong way, in that it essentially endorses a form of censorship, but I can’t abide by the idea that Sony or Nintendo should be forced by law to carry an uncut game. If the law couldn’t stop Nintendo from setting ground rules for Mortal Kombat thirty years ago, it shouldn’t be able to do the same for DOOM Eternal now, regardless of how much Nintendo has changed how it handles M-rated content.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:21

By the same token, shouldn’t the platform that will carry the speech have the right to choose…being forced…

Absolutely?
I am completely against forced speech. Nearly as much as against censorship.

forced to either carry or not carry DOOM Eternal⁠—

Doom was a big issue when I was a Guide (moderator) on AOL. My primary location was the VGS category. In fact, it was an early situation of dealing with ugc. Some of the most downloaded files were compressed partial conversions for Doom.
Some of the best seen anywhere, and later part of paid collections, took the level of satanic imagery to the extreme. Blood, gore, and sacrilege.
Properly classing items was a nightmare. Sorting titles kept most with a disclaimer in the standard VGS area. Others got moved to short-lasting Adults Hangout area under \games

I can guess that this position might rub you the wrong way,

It doesn’t actually.
In supporting the right to refuse, I equally endorse the right to protest. And would hope enough fans, users, whatever can convince companies that they have made an error. A grave error

My real problem is in the user not knowing. Not knowing up front something is different, and exactly what that is. From a developer stand point why something was refused exactly why. So that it can be addressed. Can it be addressed? Can we discuss.

But there’s a serious problem when a product is drastically changed and the consumer is unaware.
Bunny resulted in a lawsuit. Of which I am party.

If the law couldn’t stop Nintendo from setting ground rules for Mortal Kombat

No… but keep in mind the various ratings systems came from threats of government censorship involvement.

Nintendo has changed how it handles M-rated content.

Yes, they have. Nintendo pulled a full 180 in rejecting almost all censorship. Becoming a beacon of freedom in handling their system.
On top of that, at least with the Japanese site, any modification is clearly detailed, if not always completely. Often with an “including” following ‘has been changed’ from the original, source, submission, etc.

Sony is exactly what I fear in all discussions of content restrictions. When a pair of, completely non sexualised, and rarely even noticeable, panties leads to selling a game for $39.99 when half the game is not even reachable…!

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:22

the various ratings systems came from threats of government censorship involvement

And I would assume that the industry would’ve sued for their First Amendment rights had that come to pass⁠—rights, amusingly enough, that eventually came as the result of a lawsuit targeting the industry over, in a roundabout way, the ESRB rating system. Irony: ain’t she a bitch. 😁

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:23

Cal, Fl and TX prove laws get passed despite the constitution.

With the likes of hilary Clinton, Jack Thompson, and former candidate Lieberman all blowing wind… companies we’re worried.
This was still off the back of the PMRC nonsense.

The industry may have “recovered” but they were far from fiscally secure. Nobody wanted to be the one to deal with a constitutional lawsuit.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:24

Cal, Fl and TX prove laws get passed despite the constitution.

And Joseph Burstyn, Inc. v. Wilson (a.k.a. The Miracle Decision) prove that unconstitutional laws can be defeated no matter how long it takes.

The industry may have “recovered” but they were far from fiscally secure.

Independent publishers may not have had the money to fight, but the major console makers of the time that doubled as publishers (i.e., Nintendo and Sega) sure as hell did. If anyone could’ve successfully challenged the idea that the government could tell anyone what games would and wouldn’t be allowed on home consoles, it would’ve been the companies making those consoles.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:25

prove that unconstitutional laws can be defeated no matter how long it takes

Absolutely. But ultimately they chose the ratings systems instead. It was simply wise financially.
Interesting you mention Sega, the first to capitulate, enacting their own rating system.

The point being… despite options, in the real world companies tend to take the least expensive route they can.
Right or wrong, a simple threat works more often than not.

Would the likes of twitter or Facebook fight back? Maybe.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

Suppress: to restrain from a usual course or action ~TFD

that would mean I “censored” spammers

Based on definition, both you and I have done that.
Though I prefer to null direct links and replace them with “dot” text links;. Which is transformative, not censorious.
Pure advertising of legitimate services that are verifiable go in the advertising topic.

Actual fraud, and potential fraud—then off to the sandbox. There the community can have fun trolling the spammer. And by fun I mean medieval level abuse.
Is that the right decision? I don’t know. But fraud is the one and only class group where I condone abuse.
On the rare occasion I make a mistake one way or the other? So be. 230 protects me, the service, and all other users.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

If twitter removing a post because they don’t like it/it violates their TOS counts as ‘censorship’ then so does a bar telling a customer ‘you can rant about the inferiority of non-whites all you want but you’re not doing it in our building’ and showing them the door, and at that point the word ceases to have all impact.

If ‘censorship’ covers everything from the government telling someone ‘you’re not allowed to say that anywhere‘ and a private property owner telling someone ‘you’re not allowed to say that on my property‘ then the term might as well be shorthand for ‘not being able to say anything at any time and place’, weakening it to the point that no-one will care when someone claims censorship.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

Then as I noted above the dictionary has made the word completely and utterly useless, covering any act that might impeded the ability to say anything at any time and place and as a result rendering it a definition/word that has no impact or value whatever.

As I’ve noted in the past people are welcome to apply the label that widely but all that that accomplishes is watering the term down to the point that no-one will care when it’s used, which unless that was their goal rather defeats the purpose of using it to begin with.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

so does a bar telling a customer

Exactly. Which is perfectly legal. Private censorship is a protected constitutional right.

If ‘censorship’ covers everything from the government telling someone ‘you’re not allowed to say that anywhere‘ and a private property owner telling someone ‘you’re not allowed to say that on my property‘

Government censorship is unconstitutional. Private censorship is protected as forced speech is unconstitutional.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13 The boy who cried 'censorship'

Then the word is useless and you might as well get rid of it. If ‘consequences for your actions’ and/or ‘not being able to say whatever you want wherever you want’ counts as ‘censorship’ then congrats, that’s everywhere and no-one cares other than the assholes that people keep showing the door.

All you’re doing/have done by using the word like that is ensuring that it’s been watered down to the point that it has no value and no-one cares when it’s used, even if at some point you encounter a situation where they actually should. If that’s your goal by all means, keep at it, at this point I expect nothing less.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Why am I not surprised?

I’m not surprised you’re freaking out over this decision. It basically tells Twitter, Facebook, etc., that they can’t censor to their heart’s content.

This whole thing would be avoided with ease. All tech platforms have to do is simply be platforms, not a mix of publishers and platforms and stop censoring people.

If they did that, none of this would be happening.

Rocky says:

Re:

I’m not surprised you’re freaking out over this decision. It basically tells Twitter, Facebook, etc., that they can’t censor to their heart’s content.

Please tell us who have been censored and for what speech.

Also, you are aware of the First Amendment, right? The right to free association? Perhaps you think it’s just fine to force yourself upon others against their wishes, aka forced association.

Or perhaps it’s even worse and you think that not everyone is equal under the law.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Happen's All The Time

Happens all the time. I posted a member that said ‘Yesterday California said all electric by 2035. Today California is urging people not to charge their electric cars.’

Got fact checked as false and hidden. Read the fact check. “Fact Checker” had taken the extreme claim of California is banning people from charging their car and “proved” that extreme claim false. They then applied that fact check to ever single post about California car charging including mine that said “urges” which was absolutely correct.

Now as an electrical engineer Facebook censoring a post I made about electrical power as false is a direct aback on my professional reputation and libel.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

You have two issues here.
The harder one to sort is libel. In the us you are required to show actual malice AND actual damage, past, current, or future.
So if your account is principally and primarily used to convey information as an electrical engineer you will probable survive the challenge to dismiss.
The thing with social media cases is most judges actually agree with my stance when it comes to social media. That is, such accounts are not important and/or should not be important to one’s livelihood. Rather, that you should use your own targeted service for company/career communications.

And that’s the problem with using someone else’s service. You are bound by their moderation choices including the right to private censorship.
Honestly, the best option is a private service for yourself/job/company.

Contrary to common beliefs, most of the companies that left MySpace, the origin mass social site, did not move on to newer social services as a primary service. They moved to less expensive easier to use personal site-in-a-box services. Where the TOS generally limit censorship to illegal activities.

In other words, you don’t need facetwit. A WordPress or dreamkit site will get you moving without censorship, for very little or no cost. You get better search rankings, and day one indexing on most index servers.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

All tech platforms have to do is simply be platforms

Any privately owned platform, in either cyber- or meatspace, has the guaranteed right to determine what speech it will or will not host. That right is granted by the First Amendment. You have a twisted definition of “censorship” if you think someone being told “we won’t host that here” qualifies as censorship.

Also: Don’t bother trotting out the “BuT tHeY’rE pUbLiC fOrUmS!!1!” argument. I’ve three citations of binding legal precedent⁠—one of which was authored by Brett Kavanaugh!⁠—that say otherwise, and you have none that back up the “public forums” argument.

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LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re:

Idiots think that allowing material equates to condoning it.

Some people care about those with thin skin and want to baby then.

Some people only want one opinion on their site.

Whatever the reason private censorship is protected under the first amendment.
You can not compel private speech. The same reason you can’t scream about god on my property disallows you doing so on my web page.

Staid Winnow says:

Yeah, well.

This is a lot of passionate ink to dissect the opinion into its elemental form and thexresult?

A heartburn.

The simpler analysis: this wasn’t based on the law, it was just another canary in the coal mine signaling that the MAGA judiciary is now flexing its muscle.

Right on the heels of MAGA Cannon declaring a specific FPOTUS above the law.

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Jeff says:

Disagree

You will sneer at me, probably, but in my view there is a difference between a) your speech, b) Someone elses speech that you grant space to editorially, and c) someone elses speech which you display for awhile until you exercise your editorial discretion and remove it (the proverbial nazi troll speech). In my view, if you let speech be displayed in the first place then you need to let it stay. A comment section that displays speech until someone complains is not ‘editorializing’ when they remove the comment. In my view they are censoring free speech. In my view you gave the appearance of being an open public space. If you want to be not an open public space then you need to collect comments and not display them until they are fully vetted…like an editor would do.

You don’t like that probably. But you have grown used to a lazy system wherein you let almost anything go until there is a complaint. Then you try to snatch speech out of the air, so to speak, that you freely allowed to be spoken in the first place in your space that was open to the public.

Toom1275 (profile) says:

Re:

In my view you gave the appearance of being an open public space. If you want to be not an open public space then you need to collect comments and not display them until they are fully vetted…like an editor would do.

In contrast from the view from inside your rectum, here’s how it works in the real world:

PragerU’s attempt to foist a “public forum” label on YouTube by claiming that YouTube declared itself a public forum also fails. YouTube’s representation that it is committed to freedom of expression, or a single statement made by its executive before a congressional committee that she considers YouTube to be a “neutral public fora,” cannot somehow convert private property into a public forum. Whether a property is a public forum is not a matter of election by a private entity. We decline to subscribe to PragerU’s novel opt-in theory of the First Amendment.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: [Gatekeeper-minded companies and individuals liked that]

Well that’s one way to kill open platforms and turn every site that chooses to allow user submitted content rather than just bar it entirely into the equivalent of letters to the editor pages…

Do you want platforms to pre-screen every bit of content and only allow the most tame and inoffensive bits through?

Because setting the rule to ‘if you allow it up you must keep it up’ is how you get platforms to pre-screen every bit of content and only let the most tame and inoffensive bits through.

(As a nice example of how that might work in practice your comment would have been held until it could be reviewed, right alongside every other comment and the avalanche of spam the site staff have to wade through, so you likely would have been waiting a long time for your own comment to show up rather than being able to type it up, hit submit and see it posted in a matter of seconds.)

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

In my view you gave the appearance of being an open public space. If you want to be not an open public space then you need to collect comments and not display them until they are fully vetted…like an editor would do.

So I googled around a bit. A tweet can be up to 280 characters, but it seems that they average at around 100, which works out to around 20 words per tweet on average. Average reading speed is about 200-250 words per minute, so let’s say 200, or 3.3 words per second. That means that, on average, it takes about 6 seconds to read a tweet. The google results I saw estimated that there are at least 6,000 tweets posted per second. Let’s assume that the time taken to evaluate and approve or decline a post is 2 additional seconds, so that’s 8 seconds to vet a tweet. That’s 48,000 seconds of reviewing needed for each second of posting. With 86,400 seconds in a day, you’d need 144,000 employees working 8 hour shifts to keep up.

Twitter currently has approximately 7,500 employees total.

There’s simply no realistic way any company could do this.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

You don’t like that probably. But you have grown used to a lazy system wherein you let almost anything go until there is a complaint. Then you try to snatch speech out of the air, so to speak, that you freely allowed to be spoken in the first place in your space that was open to the public.

What the actual shit. Even bars don’t work that way.

What you are implying would put bars, restaurants and other similar establishments outside of large chains and transnational corps out of business.

But hey, if you want to eat like the US Army… Who am I to stop you from wanting to eat moldy bread, water that could kill you and chicken so raw it BREATHES?

Mostly because you are implying that eating and drinking establishments need to screen their patrons for the most unreasonable of things.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Free speech simply means that the government will not stop you publishing your words. If the only way you have to do that is to print and distribute them at your own expense because nobody else wants to be associated with and help you publish your words, your free speech rights are still intact. If you can’t afford to publish your words by other means, you still have the street corner where you can try to attract tn audience.

What you and other with your viewpoint are demanding is that other provide you with an audience, and help you publish your words at their expense, even if the want nothing to do with what you are saying, or displaying your words will damage their relationships with many other users.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

You will sneer at me, probably

Way ahead of you, fam.

in my view there is a difference between a) your speech, b) Someone elses speech that you grant space to editorially, and c) someone elses speech which you display for awhile until you exercise your editorial discretion and remove it (the proverbial nazi troll speech)

And your view is…flawed, at best.

if you let speech be displayed in the first place then you need to let it stay

The law doesn’t say that. In fact, the law⁠—specifically, the First Amendment and related legal precedents⁠—says that someone who chooses to host speech can also choose to not host that same speech, preëmptively or otherwise. No person, entity, or privately owned institution/service can generally be compelled by law to host speech it otherwise wouldn’t host⁠—and they similarly don’t have a right to make others host that speech. Free speech is a thing; free reach isn’t.

A comment section that displays speech until someone complains is not ‘editorializing’ when they remove the comment.

You’d probably be surprised at how many people disagree with you.

they are censoring free speech

Ibid.

you gave the appearance of being an open public space

You’re all but asking for my “public forums” copypasta. Don’t make me use it.

If you want to be not an open public space then you need to collect comments and not display them until they are fully vetted…like an editor would do.

A privately owned service can be open to the public without being a public service. If you’re going to argue against that point, you need to present an compelling argument that says the owners of a local supermarket that has a bulletin board inside can’t take down anything that gets pinned to the board. (ProTip: You don’t have one and you can’t find one.)

you have grown used to a lazy system wherein you let almost anything go until there is a complaint

Yes, that is typically how the Internet works. Unfettered and near-instant communication between people who might disagree with you is hell for people like you, huh.

you try to snatch speech out of the air, so to speak, that you freely allowed to be spoken in the first place in your space that was open to the public

Yes or no: If you open a store in a mall, do you automatically lose the right to kick out of your store anyone who yells racial slurs, spreads homophobic propaganda, and tries to convince everyone that Pickle Rick is the funniest thing ever?

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Notice of Supplemental Authority in Martillo v. Twitter

I have filed a Notice of Supplemental 5th Circuit Authority.

The Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit has provided an extremely useful opinion, which will become an important authority in an amended version of the Original Complaint in Martillo v. Twitter.

In comparison with Oldham, Southwick has incredibly unimpressive legal credentials, should probably have retired 7 years ago, must be suspected of seriously declining mental facilities, and probably believes the Internet operates by magic.

A common carrier designation, which I doubt is appropriate, would not likely change any of my preceding analysis. Few of the cases cited in the discussion on common carrier law concern the intersection of common carrier obligations and First Amendment speech rights. The only precedents that do discuss this intersection reinforce the idea common carriers retain their First Amendment protections for their own speech.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

The Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit has provided an extremely useful opinion

Only so far as people with no knowledge of (or flawed ideas about) the issues surrounding free speech, privately owned online forums, and legal liability are concerned. Everyone else can see that ruling for what it is: bullshit.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Amended Class Action Complaint

The Amended Complaint will be a class action complaint. Not only will the Amended Complaint charge a defendant class including every discriminatory social medium platform with discrimination

  1. in public accommodation according to 42 U.S. Code § 2000a – Prohibition against discrimination or segregation in places of public accommodation;
  2. in civil rights according to 42 U.S. Code §§ 1981, 1982, 1983, 1985, & 1986; and
  3. in common carriage,

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Please Read Federal Rules of Civil Procedure: Rule 23. Class Actions

(a) Prerequisites. One or more members of a class may sue or be sued as representative parties on behalf of all members only if:

(1) the class is so numerous that joinder of all members is impracticable;

(2) there are questions of law or fact common to the class;

(3) the claims or defenses of the representative parties are typical of the claims or defenses of the class; and

(4) the representative parties will fairly and adequately protect the interests of the class.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: I mentioned in an Appeals Brief that I would crowdfund and hire a top legal gunslinger

It must be getting cold in Hell. Climate change — I suppose.

Some SCOTUS Justices seem to want this case to happen.

I receive unsolicited funding, which I return.

Lawyers are knocking on my door since I explained my theory of the award that the plaintiff class will receive from each member of the defendant class when the plaintiff class prevails.

I tell each lawyer that it’s premature formally to bring onboard a legal team although I do have lawyer contacts that I have cultivated over the last 40 years of legal work.

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CultivatingMan says:

The real issue

The basic problem still remains that these platforms are monopolies by their very nature and they censor only one side of the conversation they host. Have we not had enough of them hiding FACTS for ideological reasons to the huge detriment of us all? Lying about the Hunter Biden laptop, now acknowledged to be true, effectively swung the last presidential election. Whether you think it good or not that Biden was elected do we really want Mark Zuckerburg et al deciding who we should elect and then “guiding” what is published to ensure it?
We also now know that the whole masking ritual was just political theater as was “2 weeks to change the curve” but any dissenting opinion was kept from the public which led directly to the disastrous outcome our children now live with.
The fact is that these platforms are effectively monopolistic common carriers and
they can be regulated as such. The analogy to telephone companies or email providers and banks is a good one even if you don’t like it.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

In both cases, large numbers of people had one choice, bell and standard oil, and could not take their business to a competitor. With social media on the Internet, anybody can take their business to any, or all social media sites. That is for many people when Bell was broken up, most people has the choice of using Bell, or not having a phone.

For social media, there are alternatives available to everybody, and popularity resulting in the largest share does make them a monopoly. Indeed, any of to currently popular services could go the way of MySpace, that is lose most of their user base to a competitor.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Not True At All

Not true at all. That might has been the case at one time but not at the time of breakup. By the time Bell and Standard Oil were broken up there were competitors in almost every market. That wasn’t the issue. The issue was having such a large market share as to effect prices and service to a degree detrimental to the customer. All the efforts put forth to provide “competition” in those markets had not worked to the benefit of the consumers. While Bell and Standard Oil were not literal monopolies any longer their size still harmed consumers.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

they censor only one side of the conversation they host

Twitter and Facebook both bent over backwards to appease conservatives by refusing to moderate much of their speech, including that of Donald Trump. Hell, ask trans Twitter users about how Twitter dings them more often than the transphobes they report. Seems like the “one side” you claim is being censored…isn’t.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re:

Lying about the Hunter Biden laptop,

Actuality much of the issue of the laptop story falls on CNN for claiming with absolutely no factual backing that it was Russian disinformation and then nearly every other major broadcaster then parroting them. .

As I’ve said, the only aspect of any kind of “theft” or “fraud” had nothing to do with ballots.
The blame falls on self-described news companies either pretending the story didn’t even exist or flat out created Democrat propaganda by claiming it was, was likely, was almost certainly, undoubtedly, etc Russian falsehoods.

the story broke too late to change the party elections. And many Biden voters were simply voting against trump. So the laptop facts wouldn’t have changed any of them
Would it have changed non-locked voters? Maybe. But not likely enough to swing the EC count.

Despite his achievements, some of them fantastic like the Abraham Accords,… trump simply racked up enough actual malice in office that combined with the invented issues; that yet another run of the mill corruption issue for the opposition wouldn’t have changed anything.

You only need to peruse STS’s favourite list
https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/the-complete-listing-atrocities-1-1056
to find a good deal of really really bad things. Plus some really awful things that are 100% real. Combine the facts with the Dem propaganda issues (like banning travel from state sponsors of terror) (banning travel from the SOURCE state of the virus) and you turn off the majority of voters.

You can’t blame the laptop story being censored for him not winning.
He still wouldn’t have had the votes.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re:

some really awful things that are 100% real

You say that like everything on the list doesn’t have citations of fact from reputable sources. Do you think I’d share that list if it was almost entirely bullshit with no credible citations?

the laptop story being censored

Except it wasn’t. The story is still on the New York Post website⁠—having never been deleted from the site at any point, by Twitter or by the Post itself⁠—and people were (and still are) able to discuss the story on Twitter after the story first broke and after Twitter deleted the Post’s…er, post linking to the story.

The issue isn’t “censorship”; the issue is that even if the story was 100% legit and ended up exposing a bunch of corruption involving Hunter Biden (who hadn’t even played a major role in his father’s campaign), it never could’ve been as big a factor in the election as the story of four years of Donald Trump as president.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

What part is wrong? Months of CNN commentators stating the story was planted Russian disinformation?
That most other news broadcasts said the same thing!
Or that the laptop was 100% real and lead to current proceedings towards legal processes.

Then again, I stated I don’t believe full complete, accurate, factual coverage of the laptop should have made any change the election.

Despite what Republican think, a large portion of this population is immune to concerns about political misdealings

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re:

The basic problem still remains that these platforms are monopolies by their very nature […]

No, they most certainly are not. You can’t have multiple monopolies providing similar services to the same geographic area(s) because that would mean they aren’t monopolies anymore.

[…] and they censor only one side of the conversation they host.

[citation needed]

Have we not had enough of them hiding FACTS for ideological reasons to the huge detriment of us all?

Not at all. Namely because I’ve yet to see evidence that that happens.

Lying about the Hunter Biden laptop, now acknowledged to be true, […]

False on both fronts.

Links to one article about the laptop were removed from Twitter on the basis that they might include hacked material, which would violate Twitter’s ToS; they were not removed on the basis that the story was false, and other tweets discussing the matter without links to that specific article were never removed at all. Now, it turns out that it technically doesn’t include hacked material, but even before that came out, Twitter already reinstated the posts in question after changing their ToS. Again, the authenticity of the article, the supposed emails, and the laptop were never a factor in Twitter’s decisions.

Additionally, neither Twitter, Hunter, Biden, nor anyone who questioned the accuracy of the article have “acknowledged it to be true.” It is still unknown if the emails in question are genuine and undoctored, it is not 100% certain that the laptop is Hunter’s (though that much is at least somewhat likely), and it is far from certain that the person who dropped off the laptop was Hunter himself or someone working on his behalf. And even granting all that, it is certain that the alleged meeting referenced in the alleged emails never happened, and there is no evidence that Biden himself was even aware of this all happening, so at most, Hunter lied to someone in Ukraine about setting up a meeting with the then-Vice President but nothing actually happened. I fail to see why that matters.

[…] effectively swung the last presidential election.

[citation needed]

Whether you think it good or not that Biden was elected do we really want Mark Zuckerburg et al deciding who we should elect […]

I see no evidence that any of them actually have, so the point is moot.

[…] and then “guiding” what is published to ensure it?

Again, I see no real evidence of this.

We also now know that the whole masking ritual was just political theater […]

False.

[…] as was “2 weeks to change the curve” […]

I honestly don’t know what this is even referencing. No one who actually understood anything (including Biden) ever claimed that this would all be over in two weeks, if that’s what you’re implying.

[…] but any dissenting opinion was kept from the public […]

  1. They were not. While Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube tried to prevent spread of those (false) assertions on their platforms, they did not prevent those same claims from reaching the public by other means (which they absolutely did), and they were only partially successful in stopping it even within their platforms.
  2. They weren’t merely “dissenting opinions” but medical disinformation encouraging dangerous behavior and discouraging safe behavior.

[…] which led directly to the disastrous outcome our children now live with.

False. It was the “dissenting opinions” that led to the disastrous outcome you refer to. Had everyone who could do so socially distanced properly and got properly vaccinated like they were told, the pandemic would have been far less of a problem and would have not been a significant problem for anywhere near as long.

The fact is that these platforms are effectively monopolistic common carriers and they can be regulated as such.

[citation needed]

The analogy to telephone companies or email providers and banks is a good one even if you don’t like it.

Telephone companies don’t store the contents of your calls or allow literally anyone who wants to to view/listen to them, so that’s a bad analogy. Email providers are similar, plus I’m not sure if they are treated as common carriers, though I could see the argument that they ought to be. Banks aren’t even common carriers to begin with, so analogies to banks—good or not—are irrelevant, but even so, I fail to see how banks are remotely analogous to social media.

This has nothing to do with whether I like the analogies. They are simply inapt comparisons.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: The Definition of Similar Is Critical

No, they most certainly are not. You can’t have multiple monopolies providing similar services to the same geographic area(s) because that would mean they aren’t monopolies anymore.

A monopoly on the sale of gasoline, a monopoly on the sale of diesel, and a monopoly on the sale of jet fuel can coexist, but each monopoly would be selling refined crude oil.

These are old issues long ago worked out.

The white racist supporters of discrimination by a social medium platform should stop insulting our intelligence.

Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter are functionally quite different and serve different markets. Each one in its market niche has monopoly power.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter are functionally quite different and serve different markets. Each one in its market niche has monopoly power.

Try searching for ‘alternative to’ for each one of them, and you will find there are other sites in each of their markets. Claiming they are monopolies is like claiming Ford is a monopoly, while ignoring all other car manufacturers.

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LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

You have a valid point on this one, but thinking of the largest monopoly in automotive: Chrysler/Fiat, you can see how it falls flat.

They own and can produce

Chrysler, dodge, Plymouth, jeep, ram, Eagle, fiat, Alfa Romeo, American Motors, Graham-GB, DeSoto, Fargo, imperial, valiant, Rootes, Maxwell, Chalmers, Brush, Dayton, Alden, Sampson, Hacket, Lorraine, Gray, Objective, Holding, Singer, Hudson, Nash, AeroCar, AMG and AMC, Kaiser, Essex, Page, Rambler, Russel, Willys…
And that’s not including long term, still active, first option rights to former brands like Lamborghini, Mercedes, and Peugeot.

And yet, there is healthy competition. With other monopolies.

A monopoly is not necessarily bad in/of itself.

But the attempt to break a long time monopoly never works out.
Look at the misguided Bell breakup. You can’t force a company to compete with itself.
Many of the intentions, such as interchangeable devices, could have been done through solo regulation.
Instead the monopoly busting gave us 20 years of increasing prices, the mega scandal with MCI, poorer quality, and the now entrenched methodology of never upgrading the back end.

Then there’s the aspect of service. What would you break up Facebook or Twitter into?
Given both are entirely different services competing with each other and others.

Marketing bill aside: twitter is a text messenger. A rather archaic one of that, with length limits.
Facebook is yet another blog service.

Twitter has FAR less users than Apple and Google. …Or even Samsung!
Facebook isn’t even close to the wordpress user count.

Neither provide much in the way of “other” services. What would you actually force them to divest that would change anything?

Booker says:

To play devil’s advocate, years ago a restaurant in California lost a lawsuit from two men claiming their rights were violated when they were ejected for refusing to remove the Nazi insignias they were wearing. Their victory was based on what the court found were violations of both California civil rights law and the First Amendment.

To complicate my devilish advocacy, this was a lower court ruling the restaurant declined to appeal, preferring to settle; I cannot find the full ruling, but the 1A violation appears to be based on a controversial legal theory (pushed by Thurgood Marshall but never adopted by the Supreme Court) that when a private entity utilizes “state actors” (the police called by the restaurant) to assist in suppressing speech it becomes a constitutional matter. That obviously wouldn’t apply here anyway.

The more solid parallel is that California courts have construed state civil rights law to cover discrimination against political viewpoint, which, like all anti-discrimination laws, override the right of the private entity to act as it sees fit.

Does this mostly forgotten case offer any illuminating insight into the current case? I don’t know; advocating for Satan is an uncertain undertaking.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

Does this mostly forgotten case offer any illuminating insight into the current case?

The only possible insight it could offer is that one court believed the police being involved in removing people from a privately owned establishment based on their political viewpoint was a violation of California law. Whether that law can hold up to scrutiny in higher courts is a different matter, especially given the First Amendment’s protections of the freedom of association. Last I checked, being a Nazi didn’t put someone in a protected class under federal law.

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melonlord (profile) says:

I have no words. If free speech dies in America, it’s opinions like these that will have killed it. The 5th Circuit went further than just misconstruing the First Amendment — they outright discarded it and replaced it with stream-of-consciousness legal gibberish better suited to your weird uncle’s Facebook page than to the federal courts. I’m trying to think of another appellate decision from this century that matches this one in sheer stupidity, cynical partisanship, and legal illiteracy, but I just can’t.

Remember: unless institutions respect it, the constitution is just an old sheet of parchment. The 5th Circuit has declared war on the First Amendment, and forgive me if I’m skeptical about our current Supreme Court’s willingness to defend it.

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melonlord (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

No, I haven’t read any of Mike’s work regarding Pruneyard. I have actually read Pruneyard and understand that it does not support your bogus, intentional misreading of the law. But go off.

And since we’re attacking Mike for not having a JD, don’t worry — I do. Let me be the attorney who tells you you’re wrong.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 No You Havent

No you haven’t read Pruneyard. Your assertion is just that an assertion. Frankly you are full of shit.

“(c) Nor have appellants’ First Amendment rights been infringed by the California Supreme Court’s decision. The shopping center by choice of its owner is not limited to the personal use of appellants, and the views expressed by members of the public in passing out pamphlets or seeking signatures for a petition thus will not likely be identified with those of the owner. ”

That is the most important ingle sentence in Pruneyard. It established that no reasonable person would consider the host to be identified with the speech.

So there is no compelled speech. A privately owned forum has absolutely zero First Amendment rights to claim the state can’t force you by statute to carry speech because its not compelled speech.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 Okay, asshole. You asked for it.

Social media services are not public fora. Manhattan Community Access Corp. v. Halleck, a Supreme Court ruling from 2019 for which Trump-appointed Associate Justice Brett Kavanaugh wrote the majority opinion, doesn’t directly address social media but still provides the logic necessary to counter any “yes they are public fora” argument:

Under the Court’s cases, a private entity may qualify as a state actor when it exercises “powers traditionally exclusively reserved to the State.” … It is not enough that the federal, state, or local government exercised the function in the past, or still does. And it is not enough that the function serves the public good or the public interest in some way. Rather, to qualify as a traditional, exclusive public function within the meaning of our state-action precedents, the government must have traditionally and exclusively performed the function.

The Court has stressed that “very few” functions fall into that category. … Under the Court’s cases, those functions include, for example, running elections and operating a company town. … The Court has ruled that a variety of functions do not fall into that category, including, for example: running sports associations and leagues, administering insurance payments, operating nursing homes, providing special education, representing indigent criminal defendants, resolving private disputes, and supplying electricity. …

When the government provides a forum for speech (known as a public forum), the government may be constrained by the First Amendment, meaning that the government ordinarily may not exclude speech or speakers from the forum on the basis of viewpoint, or sometimes even on the basis of content[.]

By contrast, when a private entity provides a forum for speech, the private entity is not ordinarily constrained by the First Amendment because the private entity is not a state actor. The private entity may thus exercise editorial discretion over the speech and speakers in the forum. This Court so ruled in its 1976 decision in Hudgens v. NLRB. There, the Court held that a shopping center owner is not a state actor subject to First Amendment requirements such as the public forum doctrine[.]

The Hudgens decision reflects a commonsense principle: Providing some kind of forum for speech is not an activity that only governmental entities have traditionally performed. Therefore, a private entity who provides a forum for speech is not transformed by that fact alone into a state actor. After all, private property owners and private lessees often open their property for speech. Grocery stores put up community bulletin boards. Comedy clubs host open mic nights. As Judge Jacobs persuasively explained, it “is not at all a near-exclusive function of the state to provide the forums for public expression, politics, information, or entertainment[”.]

In short, merely hosting speech by others is not a traditional, exclusive public function and does not alone transform private entities into state actors subject to First Amendment constraints.

If the rule were otherwise, all private property owners and private lessees who open their property for speech would be subject to First Amendment constraints and would lose the ability to exercise what they deem to be appropriate editorial discretion within that open forum. Private property owners and private lessees would face the unappetizing choice of allowing all comers or closing the platform altogether. “The Constitution by no means requires such an attenuated doctrine of dedication of private property to public use.” … Benjamin Franklin did not have to operate his newspaper as “a stagecoach, with seats for everyone.” … That principle still holds true. As the Court said in Hudgens, to hold that private property owners providing a forum for speech are constrained by the First Amendment would be “to create a court-made law wholly disregarding the constitutional basis on which private ownership of property rests in this country.” … The Constitution does not disable private property owners and private lessees from exercising editorial discretion over speech and speakers on their property. …

A private entity … who opens its property for speech by others is not transformed by that fact alone into a state actor.

In 2020, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals directly cited Halleck as part of the ruling in Prager University v. Google LLC, a case in which PragerU claimed YouTube was a public forum due to the ubiquity and the public-facing nature of YouTube:

PragerU argues that the pervasiveness of YouTube binds it to the First Amendment because Marsh teaches that “[t]he more an owner, for his advantage, opens up his property for use by the public in general, the more do his rights become circumscribed by the … constitutional rights of those who use it.” … PragerU’s reliance on Marsh is not persuasive. In Marsh, the Court held that a private entity operating a company town is a state actor and must abide by the First Amendment. … But in Lloyd Corp. and Hudgens, the Court unequivocally confined Marsh’s holding to the unique and rare context of “company town[s]” and other situations where the private actor “perform[s] the full spectrum of municipal powers.” …

YouTube does not fit the bill. Unlike the company town in Marsh, YouTube merely operates a platform for user-generated video content; it does not “perform[] all the necessary municipal functions,” … nor does it operate a digital business district that has “all the characteristics of any other American town[.]” …

YouTube also does not conduct a quintessential public function through regulation of speech on a public forum. … To characterize YouTube as a public forum would be a paradigm shift.

And in 2022, the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals cited Halleck as part of a ruling in NetChoice v. Attorney General, State of Florida:

Not in their wildest dreams could anyone in the Founding generation have imagined Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, or TikTok. But “whatever the challenges of applying the Constitution to ever-advancing technology, the basic principles of freedom of speech and the press, like the First Amendment’s command, do not vary when a new and different medium for communication appears.” … One of those “basic principles”—indeed, the most basic of the basic—is that “[t]he Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment constrains governmental actors and protects private actors.” … Put simply, with minor exceptions, the government can’t tell a private person or entity what to say or how to say it.

(To keep this copypasta from getting way too long for its own good, I suggest going to the relevant link and reading that article.)

So yeah, legal precedent says social media services are not public fora in the sense that they must host all legally protected speech. I have three citations of legal precedent; at best, you have two: one that only applies to physical shopping malls in California and one that a likely significant number of legal experts think is bullshit.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 Not State Actor

Your CTRL+V is powerful lol

You are so fucking stupid. There is no state actor issue here in question. This is regulatory law. No one is saying that BigTech has to abide by the first Amendment under this law. This law doesn’t make them a state actor. It simply regulates what they can and cannot do as a common carrier under Texas law.

You are just too stupid to get it.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

No one is saying that BigTech has to abide by the [F]irst Amendment under this law.

Except they kind of are, by way of asking “Big Tech” to host speech that it otherwise wouldn’t host. That’s a limit of the First Amendment: Public fora can’t (generally) discriminate against people on the basis of their speech. Members of the Westboro Baptist Church have every right to stand on a street corner and pass out anti-queer propaganda; they don’t have a right to make Twitter host that propaganda unless the law says otherwise, and right now, the law doesn’t say otherwise.

It simply regulates what they can and cannot do as a common carrier under Texas law.

Ah, I see, you’re kissing ThorsProvoni’s ass now. Trolls gotta stick together, huh.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

“Except they kind of are, by way of asking “Big Tech” to host speech that it otherwise wouldn’t host.”

And cable companies have to provide channels they otherwise wouldn’t host. Phone companies have to offer service to areas they otherwise wouldn’t’ host. What is your point?

“they don’t have a right to make Twitter host that propaganda unless the law says otherwise”

We aren’t talking about “rights” here. We are talking about law. This is a law not a right. Legally Westboro can require Twitter to host their speech the same as they can require AT&T to provide them cell service.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Legally Westboro can require Twitter to host their speech the same as they can require AT&T to provide them cell service.

AT&T have a transient association with speech, while Twitter has a persistent relationship with speech. Spreading offensive or derogatory stories about someone via AT&T takes effort, as the spreader has to call each intended recipient one at a time. Doing the same on Twitter involves posting it once, and letting people find it on Twitter. Twitter does not wish to be used to spread offensive and derogatory stories, especially those that are an attack on a group of people, and so it will remove such speech when it finds it, or is notified about it.

Stopping the spread of such speech is something that Twitter can do, but AT&T cannot do, because Twitter keeps a copy of the speech to display to those ho want to see it, While AT&T only allows you to speak to an individual, and does not store your speech.

Your whole premise is based on a false equivalent between a transient connection for a private conversation, and a persistent posting that allows you to publish speech for many people to see.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11 Yeah, Right! Transient Relationship to Voice!

Anonymous Coward has finally completely murdered his mind with his depraved and perverted white racism.

In Yiddish we assert the following.

.זײַן מוח איז טאַקע אַ שטיקל פֿלײש מיט צװײ אױגן

His brain really is a piece of meat with two eyes.

What is this transient relationship to voice nonsense?

AT&T and the RBOCs offered voice messaging answering services since the 80s.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15 The White Racism of Community Standards

A claim of community standards was a standard excuse for not serving a Black in a restaurant or for not renting a room to a Black in a hotel. I know. I can pass, but my mom suffered that crap all the time in the 50s and 60s.

A white racist of the 50s, 60s, and 70s has morphed into a 2020s white racist supporter of discrimination by a social medium platform.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13 The Potential Recipient of an AT&T MANS Narrative was every telephone subscriber on the planet

MANS means Mass Announcement Network Service.

From our standpoint, at AT&T we delivered the equivalent of a cassette recording, which the destination telephone subscriber played at his own convenience.

A Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, or Medium blog differs in no way legally from the AT&T MANS service.

A white racist social medium platform has no First Amendment legal basis to censor the content of any user.

I have to thank Chozen and all the white racist supporters of discrimination by a social medium platform for helping me to formulate this argument.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

What is your point?

Twitter isn’t a public utility or a public forum. Until and unless a federal law or the Supreme Court says otherwise, the law shouldn’t force Twitter into hosting any speech its owners/operators would otherwise refuse to host.

Legally Westboro can require Twitter to host their speech

Donald Trump, who was the sitting President of the United States when he was banned, couldn’t force Twitter to host his speech. What makes you think the “God Hates F–gs” people have more of a legal right to use Twitter than a sitting POTUS?

melonlord (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Ooh, yes. Please keep ripping parts of the syllabus out of context and acting like it’s the entire holding. Talk to me dirty.

Did you gather in your analysis of the case that it was founded on a provision of the California state constitution, or did that slip past you? And have you considered that a website is, in fact, not a shopping mall?

See, e.g., NetChoice, LLC v. Moody: “The Florida statutes now at issue, unlike the state actions in FAIR and PruneYard, explicitly forbid social media platforms from appending their own statements to posts by some users. And the statutes compel the platforms to change their own speech in other respects, including, for example, by dictating how the platforms may arrange speech on their sites. This is a far greater burden on the platforms’ own speech than was involved in FAIR or PruneYard.”; NetChoice v. Paxton, the lower court decision overturned by the 5th Circuit’s cookery: “In PruneYard, the Supreme Court upheld a California law that required a shopping mall to host people collecting petition signatures, concluding there was no ‘intrusion into the function of editors’ since the shopping mall’s operation of its business lacked an editorial function. Critically, the shopping mall did not engage in expression and ‘the [mall] owner did not even allege that he objected to the content of the [speech]; nor was the access right content based.'”

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Which is the Issue

Mike doesn’t read the arguments because Mike is an idiot. The case that was made to the court by the pontiffs was that there is an implied right to censor because hosting speech can be considered endorsement of speech and therefor compelled speech which is a 1st Amendment violation. The corut was having none of it because as you said “No one ever confused the Dial-A-Porn messages, which AT&T hosted, with AT&T’s own speech.”

Which is exactly what the court said in Prunyarard

“(c) Nor have appellants’ First Amendment rights been infringed by the California Supreme Court’s decision. The shopping center, by choice of its owner, is not limited to the personal use of appellants, and the views expressed by members of the public in passing out pamphlets or seeking signatures for a petition thus will not likely be identified with those of the owner.”

No reasonable person would interpret the hosting of speech as the speech of the host.

If you do then under the law you are not a reasonable person.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

because Mike is an idiot

Wasn’t it you, and not Mike, that thought a public house meant public housing?

Because that kind of makes you sound like… an idiot.

Oh, and you also think that I cannot use force to remove you from my property after you’ve been told you are trespassing. Again, kind of makes you sound like… an idiot.

Oh, and that time you said that bar tenders need to be licensed in order to forcibly remove unwanted drunks, but have never provided a single link to laws that would back up your statement?

Well, you don’t just sound like an idiot, you are a big huge flaming idiot.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Civil rights violations are a real crime. Mike’s actually business aside from being a paid shill is to advice BigTech on how to violate the rights of people. Eventually political identification will be a protected class in many red states. At that time Mike will be risking real prison time if he continues to conspire against the rights of others. Ironically this kind of discrimination is already illegal in California as California uniquely protects political identification as a protected class. California just doesn’t enforce its own civil rights code.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Eventually political identification will be a protected class in many red states.

Yeah, and when that happens, you let us know. Until then, telling Trumpists to fuck off isn’t a crime.

By the way: Fuck off.

Mike will be risking real prison time if he continues to conspire against the rights of others

Yeah, and I’ve got a girlfriend in Canada~.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Well I Thouhgt It Was Clever

Well I thought it was clever. Tech lawyers and prognosticators like Mike “The Manchild” are more like religious leaders than attorneys. In their filing to the they were more spouting religious dogma than they were making a legal argument.

Apparently you have no sense of humor.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

I think BigTech scumbags getting raped in Texas state prison would be absolutely hilarious. I would laugh as loud as when it happens to homophobes. It’s only a matter of time until red states start coming after people like Mike for Civil Rights violations.

All it takes is a minor change to the a civil states rights code. After that much of what is done in BigTech boardrooms becomes a felony.

California has the right idea by protecting political identification under their civil rights code. It has just proven worthless because as far as California state AGs are concerned that was intended solely to protect communists not conservatives so they simply chose not to enforce their own law against BigTech. Red states will enforce it.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

I think BigTech scumbags getting raped in Texas state prison would be absolutely hilarious.

Because of course you think cruelty and inhumane behavior is funny. Now I have to wonder how much you laughed at George Floyd being killed.

It’s only a matter of time until red states start coming after people like Mike for Civil Rights violations.

What are they gonna do, sue him for thoughtcrimes? 1984 really is an instruction manual for you alt-reich assholes, huh.

California has the right idea by protecting political identification under their civil rights code.

That only applies to employment: Under California law, you can’t be fired or retaliated against at your job for your political beliefs or activities. A bill that intended to make political affiliation a protected class in all of California law failed to pass.

FYI: I happen to agree that employers shouldn’t have the right to fire you over your political affiliation or outside-of-work political activities⁠—especially if that employer has any government ties of any kind. But trying to turn “Republican” into a protected class of people (which was the intent of that failed bill, even if its author never said as much) is about as ridiculous as trying to turn “Star Wars fans” into a protected class of people.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

I would laugh as loud as when it happens to homophobes.

I was wondering who the troll posting shit like “straight people have to try anal sex before they can decide they’re not gay” was, figures it’d be you. Putting your eggs in the Trump basket really doesn’t seem to have worked out in your favor though, did it?

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ML2 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

(I accidentally posted this as a separate comment. I am reposting it here as a reply as I was intending to do.)

There’s a difference between finding a rape jokes/ funny and finding an actual rape funny. There’s a lot of controversy over the former kind of humor, but Chozen is claiming to find the latter kind funny, which is much more abnormal.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

If a pedophile gets raped in prison IRL that’s funny. Its all context.

A few years ago when a Kentucky pedophile ring were all murdered in prison the comments section in the news articles was hilarious. There was a gofundme to buy the inmates a thank you bar-b-que.

I’m a Latino bisexual. I don’t exactly have a standard “Christian Ethic” lol.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

If a pedophile gets raped in prison IRL that’s funny. Its all context.

What makes the act of rape in and of itself funny, though? Like, what’s funny about someone being forcefully violated against their will, regardless of the context of who, when, were, and how someone is forcefully violated against their will?

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

When bad evil people get raped in prison we laugh about it.

No, no we do not. I find the whole thing appalling, actually. Maybe you laugh about it, but to assume that that is common, let alone something that a majority of people do, is purely unsupported assertion.

They deserve it.

I don’t think anyone deserves rape. Even under the most justifiable case, where a rapist gets raped, I don’t think they actually deserve it. I certainly don’t think that any non-rapist criminals could even arguably deserve it.

You could call it part of our expected criminal justice system.

To the extent that it is, it shouldn’t be.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Research Yourself

Do a search on academic studies if you don’t believe me spelling inversely correlates to high intelligence.

Studies in this go all the way back to the early 20th century wiht

Spelling Deficiency in Children of Superior General Ability ~ McGovney 1930

“Test records of Elementary School of the state of Iowa seem to indicate that a number of children of superiors intelligence were poor spellers.”

There is even further fascinating research on the specifics of English as highly intelligent people who struggle with spelling English excel at spelling in other languages like German that have stronger phonetic rules and are not just pure memorization. In short the English language is an insult to the intelligence of intelligent people.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9 ROLF

“Are you seriously saying that some of the best English-speaking authors in the world are all idiots because their books aren’t riddled with misspellings and mistakes”

lol ROLF lol OMG I’m cracking up here.

Ernest Hemingway was on of the most notoriously bad spellers in history. His editor complied a list of all his errors to complain and all Hemingway said was “Well, that’s what you’re hired to correct!”

Your stupidity never ceases to amaze me. You are so ignorant, so sheltered. Your are such a pathetic human. You didn’t even realize that authors have editors. I’m reminded of when you didn’t know what plat maps were. Get a life for gods sake! Or at least a daddy.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

You didn’t even realize that authors have editors.

I do. And I realize that people, even the best authors in the world, are prone to making spelling and grammar mistakes. I’ve made plenty of them, too. (I had to have a text expander macro for fascist and rhythm for a while to make sure I stopped fucking those up.)

But you’re arguing that anyone who takes the time to spell things correctly the first time, or to proofread and fix their own work⁠ as much as possible, is dumber than a box of Fruity Pebbles. And you’re doing it to snap back at people who lightly mocked you for misspelling a couple of words.

Did one of your parents smack you as a kid because you fucked up on a spelling test⁠?

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

“But you’re arguing that anyone who takes the time to spell things correctly the first time, or to proofread and fix their own work⁠ as much as possible, is dumber than a box of Fruity Pebbles. And you’re doing it to snap back at people who lightly mocked you for misspelling a couple of words.”

Don’t blame me, its science!

As I said, midwit to dumber than a box of fruity pebbles. Back half of the bell curve. Of course there are some exceptions to the rule but on the average good spelling inversely correlates to high intelligence. At least in the bastard mutt of a language we call English.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

on the average good spelling inversely correlates to high intelligence

And you’re seriously going to hang your hat on the idea that literally everyone who can spell English words correctly the vast majority of the time are actually r⸻d idiots, while people who make the worst misspellings in the world are secret hyper-geniuses, and all to make yourself feel better about being lightly mocked over a few misspellings of your own? Jesus, dude, are you so insecure about misspelling a couple of words once or twice that you’ll insult millions of people to make yourself feel better?

That’s fucked up.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13 Thats Science

“And you’re seriously going to hang your hat on the idea that literally everyone who can spell English words correctly the vast majority of the time are actually r⸻d idiots, while people who make the worst misspellings in the world are secret hyper-geniuses, and all to make yourself feel better about being lightly mocked over a few misspellings of your own? Jesus, dude, are you so insecure about misspelling a couple of words once or twice that you’ll insult millions of people to make yourself feel better?

That’s fucked up.”

Thats science mother fucker. Sometimes what you think would be the case when you actually study it proves to be the opposite.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

Read this agian.

And millions of people are bad spellers. Why is it okay when you do it? When you bring up spelling and typos to attack someone’s intelligence, why is okay for you? Isn’t it more a sign of insecurity when you attack someone’s spelling rather than engage in dialogue? You knew what the fuck the person said you piece of shit! Why do you have to insult the intelligence of millions of bad spellers by attacking the spelling and not the argument? Why the in the fucking hell are you so insecure?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

Why is it okay when you do it? When you bring up spelling and typos to attack someone’s intelligence, why is okay for you?

Because you’re a disruptive little shit who comes to this site and argues for shit like “rape is funny” and “Twitter being legally forced to host speech would be a good thing, actually”. When someone with far more credibility and a far better reputation than you misspells something, I tend to chalk it up to a lack of pre-publish proofreading (which has happened to me a few times) or autocorrect or whatever and move on. But you? Like I said, you’re a disruptive little shit⁠—and since you’ve shown no respect for anyone here, including yourself, I’ve no reason to show you any respect in return.

Isn’t it more a sign of insecurity when you attack someone’s spelling rather than engage in dialogue?

If you were willing to engage in good faith dialogue and learn from what other people are trying to teach you? Yeah, probably. But since you’re a bad faith dipshit who refuses to learn anything from people with more actual knowledge of a given subject? I don’t give a fuck and you can’t make me.

You knew what the fuck the person said you piece of shit!

You could’ve ignored the insult, you quarter-assed provocateur.

Why do you have to insult the intelligence of millions of bad spellers by attacking the spelling and not the argument?

We’re not insulting the intelligence of millions of people. We’re insulting the intelligence of one person. Guess which one and win a No-Prize!

Why the in the fucking hell are you so insecure?

I’ve made plenty of spelling and grammar mistakes before. Sometimes I post a reply to correct them, sometimes I don’t. That largely depends on whether I’m understood despite the mistakes. If someone mocks my mistakes, I’m okay with that⁠—hell, there’s a good chance I might laugh with them.

You got needled for a couple of misspellings. You subsequently spent hours grousing about, insulting other people for, and showing your inability to deal with those penny-ante insults. If anyone is insecure in their ability to write, to communicate, and to be better understood, it’s you.

Your projections can’t hurt me. How much are they hurting you?

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Compleatly Revevent

Its absolutely relevant because its another example that for a communication company or forum to host speech is not an endorsement of that speech.

There is no 1st Amendment right to censor. There is a right against compelled speech but since no reasonable person would consider it the hosts speech there is no compelled speech.

The court does not care what unreasonable nutcases like Stephen think.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

There is a right against compelled speech but since no reasonable person would consider it the hosts speech there is no compelled speech.

What other people consider “association” isn’t the issue; being compelled to host speech that one doesn’t want to host is the issue. By pushing for the right to free reach, you and your compatriots have essentially argued that any website hosted in the United States should be forced by law to carry any legally protected speech. The First Amendment and associated legal precedent frowns upon that idea in meatspace; I see no reason why those rules shouldn’t apply to cyberspace. The U.S. government doesn’t have the right to make Walmart carry a given book for sale⁠—for what reason should the government have the right to make Twitter carry racial slurs, homophobic propaganda, and spirited defenses of The Rise of Skywalker?

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 A Message Common Carrier Must Carry a Message without Regard to the Message

This common carrier obligation was long established at the time of the framing of the US Constitution, and the First Amendment did not explicitly end this obligation.

Every social medium platform is a common carrier and must carry a message without regard to the content of that message no matter how much a depraved and perverted white racist like a TechDirt supporter of discrimination by a social medium platform objects to this obligation.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 The Depraved and Perverted White Racist Sets Up a Bogus Straw Man

Despite the assertion below from the depraved and perverted white racist nitwit, it is easy to escape violation

  1. of the 1st Amendment (by state action),
  2. of common carriage obligation,
  3. of public accommodation law, and
  4. of civil rights law.

A social medium platform need only organize itself as a private club and not hold its service out to the public.

What other people consider “association” isn’t the issue; being compelled to host speech that one doesn’t want to host is the issue. By pushing for the right to free reach, you and your compatriots have essentially argued that any website hosted in the United States should be forced by law to carry any legally protected speech. The First Amendment and associated legal precedent frowns upon that idea in meatspace; I see no reason why those rules shouldn’t apply to cyberspace. The U.S. government doesn’t have the right to make Walmart carry a given book for sale⁠—for what reason should the government have the right to make Twitter carry racial slurs, homophobic propaganda, and spirited defenses of The Rise of Skywalker?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

A social medium platform need only organize itself as a private club and not hold its service out to the public.

Hey, quick question: For what reason should the law be able to make Twitter host Straight Pride propaganda if the law can’t make an individual Hobby Lobby store put up a LGBT Pride flag? After all, both Twitter and the Hobby Lobby store are privately owned entities that have opened their doors to the public, and the binding legal principle established in Halleck⁠—a Supreme Court ruling!⁠—confirms that doing so doesn’t turn those entities into public forums.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

A social medium platform need only organize itself as a private club and not hold its service out to the public.

Become a member to use our facilities is what private clubs ask, and so does Twitter, is that you have to sign up and become a Twitter member to post. I do not know of any other mandatory requirement for a club to be a private club.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Twitter's Signup is a Public Admission Ticket

The US federal courts know all about the whites-only public admission tickets that white racists created for movie theaters and intrastate rail lines.

Twitter holds out to the public a forum for discussion within the state-supported and state-designated Internet public forum.

Twitter’s racist discrimination qualifies as Constitutionally forbidden state action because Twitter is inextricably intertwined with state and federal governments.

The racist Twitter management is going to be slapped down hard as it deserves.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Way to dodge there.

You: “Twitter can avoid this if it sets itself up as a private club.”

Different AC: “Twitter requires that you join. That makes it a private club.”

You: “Well that doesn’t count.”

Twitter holds out to the public a forum for discussion within the state-supported and state-designated Internet public forum.

So does every other website that allows user comment and discussion. Are they ALL state actors? If not, what makes them different? I keep asking you this and you keep dodging, going back to your same old talking points. Burton, Perry, “state-supported and state-designated Internet public forum,” “inextricably intertwined.”

None of those hold up. Maybe you even realize that deep down, which is why instead of debating the points raised, you just call people stupid and racist.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 Once Again Anonymous Clown Shows How His White Racism Has Murdered His Mind

As much as a depraved perverted racist nitwit tries to argue that Twitter is a private club, membership in Twitter is a public admissions ticket like a ticket to enter a movie theater, which provides a place of public accommodation for exhibition and for entertainment.

The dumb white racist continues to try to achieve greater ignorance and stupidity with each successive comment. Practically every comment this dumb white racist makes can be mapped to a dumb losing argument that a white racist made in court during the 60s or 70s.

What is the difference between a public country club and a private country club?

How you join.

Both forms of club require a membership fee and dues, in exchange for privledges.

A public club, a prospective member just shows up, requests an application, fills it out, pays the fees and then, voila (barring exceptional action by the clubs board to deny/expel them), they are a member, with privledges.

A private club chooses who they wish to invite to join. A prospective member must establish a relationship with a member, and hope that member has the ability to get them invited to join.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

What is the difference between a public country club and a private country club?

How you join.

Both forms of club require a membership fee and dues, in exchange for privledges.

A public club, a prospective member just shows up, requests an application, fills it out, pays the fees and then, voila (barring exceptional action by the clubs board to deny/expel them), they are a member, with privledges.

A private club chooses who they wish to invite to join. A prospective member must establish a relationship with a member, and hope that member has the ability to get them invited to join.

Really? Some rando on Quora? That’s all you got? Come back when you have a real argument.

Also, couldn’t help but notice you didn’t respond to the second half of my post (again) and just called me stupid and racist, just like I said you would.

No wonder your lolsuit got tossed. You aren’t very good at this.

The dumb white racist continues to try to achieve greater ignorance and stupidity with each successive comment.

More like, ThorsProvoni continues to achieve greater ignorance and stupidity with each successive comment.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 Sometimes an Issue is so simple we don't have to cite a case

Anonymous Clown is a dumb white racist hellbent on legitimizing and normalizing white racism.

A Court would dismiss within a microsecond an argument, which alleges that a social medium platform is a private club. Every social medium platform admits that its economic model requires the largest possible membership and as many eyes on a page as can be enticed thereto.

United States v. Slidell Youth Football Ass’n, 387 F. Supp. 474 (E.D. La. 1974) goes through the legal reasoning to determine whether a club is public or private. Unfortunately the analysis is not compact, and the dumb white racist has shown no ability to understand an opinion of a Court.

As I pointed out, a dumb white racist has been attempting to use the private club subterfuge since the 60s and 70s. It never works just like the dumb white racist’s brain does not work.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Your worthless accusations of racism aside:

Every social medium platform admits that its economic model requires the largest possible membership and as many eyes on a page as can be enticed thereto.

So what? That doesn’t turn Twitter into a public forum. If you’re going to argue that Twitter should be a public forum, you have to likewise argue that every other interactive web service on the Internet should be a public forum so long as they open their doors to the public. Halleck pretty much wrecked that argument, and that’s a legally binding Supreme Court decision.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

All Halleck said was that a local cable company wasn’t a state actor.

And Halleck was cited in two subsequent cases⁠—Prager University v. Google LLC and NetChoice v. Attorney General, State of Florida⁠—that applied the logic of Halleck to interactive web services such as YouTube. The leap in logic to apply Halleck that way was more like a short hop, given the original logic of Halleck.

Up to now, you have yet to present a coherent and well-constructed argument in favor of the U.S. government forcing any nominally queer-friendly social media service⁠—from Twitter to the tech.lgbt Masto instance⁠—host speech promoting anti-queer “conversion ‘therapy’ ”. Halleck is the binding legal precedent you and your ilk have to overcome if y’all want your argument taken seriously. Good luck.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Anonymous Clown is a dumb white racist hellbent on legitimizing and normalizing white racism.

You’re a very angry and hateful person. You should probably work on that.

A Court would dismiss within a microsecond an argument, which alleges that a social medium platform is a private club.

Slidell didn’t. They analyzed the situation before making a decision.

United States v. Slidell Youth Football Ass’n, 387 F. Supp. 474 (E.D. La. 1974) goes through the legal reasoning to determine whether a club is public or private. Unfortunately the analysis is not compact,

The analysis is not that hard to understand, although you didn’t link to the part of the decision that actually contained the analysis. Maybe that’s why it was “not compact” and so hard for you to understand. Next time, direct someone to Paragraphs 14 and 15, which start just before here. Based on the Court’s reasoning, I would agree that Twitter is a place of public accommodation as defined in 42 U.S.C. § 2000a. Congratulations, you’ve actually made a valid point for once.

However, being a place of public accommodation doesn’t automatically make it a public forum or a common carrier or a state actor.

Also, it makes me wonder why you bothered to go through the trouble of finding and quoting some random comment on Quora if you had Slidell to back you up. That leads me to conclude that you didn’t know about Slidell at the time and are now just trying to look smart. You don’t.

Now, back to the real meat of my previous post: You have posted all over this article’s comments. There’s no way you haven’t seen my question since you’ve actually responded to other parts of my posts, and I’ve asked you in other threads as well. You just keep dodging. So I’ll ask again:

In what way does a social media site differ from any other site that allows user content, like a message board, such that Twitter is a state actor and the message board site isn’t?

Consider, for example, forum.knittinghelp.com. It’s
“wholly contained within the Internet/inextricably intertwined” just like Twitter. Anyone can register to post there, just like Twitter. Both sites basically do the same thing. Therefore, every argument you’ve made that you say applies to Twitter (public forum, common carrier, state actor) must also apply to forum.knittinghelp.com.

This of course, in turn, means that any website accessible on the Internet that allows open user comment and discussion would qualify as a public forum/common carrier/state actor.

This is a ridiculous argument.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

membership in Twitter is a public admissions ticket like a ticket to enter a movie theater, which provides a place of public accommodation for exhibition and for entertainment

So what? That doesn’t turn a movie theater into a public forum any more than Twitter opening its doors to the general public turns Twitter into a public forum.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Twitter holds out to the public a forum for discussion within the state-supported and state-designated Internet public forum.

[ahem]

A private entity … who opens its property for speech by others is not transformed by that fact alone into a state actor.

— from the decision in Manhattan Community Access Corp. v. Halleck, a Supreme Court ruling from 2019 for which Trump-appointed Associate Justice Brett Kavanaugh wrote the majority opinion

That’s binding legal precedent from the highest court in the land, and it’s been cited twice in subsequent years in rulings related to interactive web services and claims that they’re de facto public forums that should have to host all legal speech. Both of those rulings went in favor of the web services, by the by.

You got any binding legal precedents that supercede a Supreme Court ruling⁠? Your lolsuit, which was already booted once by SCOTUS, doesn’t count.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 That Fact Alone

I think you are missing the “that fact alone” part. In the case of Twitter and all social media its far more than “that fact alone.” Fundamentally the state holds a hammer over the head of all social media because of their control of all wired and wireless communications. And our elected officials are not shy to threaten the use of that hammer to get social media to do what they want.

I have a feeling that Facebook illegally spying on and sending messenger texts directly to the FBI without a warrant will be the last straw. Too much evidence has been revealed in this past year about the buddy buddy relationship between BigTech and government. Even Mike is afraid to talk about it.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

In the case of Twitter and all social media its far more than “that fact alone.”

Social media services are not public fora. Manhattan Community Access Corp. v. Halleck, a Supreme Court ruling from 2019 for which Justice Brett Kavanaugh wrote the majority opinion, doesn’t directly address social media but still provides the logic necessary to counter any “yes they are public fora” argument:

Under the Court’s cases, a private entity may qualify as a state actor when it exercises “powers traditionally exclusively reserved to the State.” … It is not enough that the federal, state, or local government exercised the function in the past, or still does. And it is not enough that the function serves the public good or the public interest in some way. Rather, to qualify as a traditional, exclusive public function within the meaning of our state-action precedents, the government must have traditionally and exclusively performed the function.

The Court has stressed that “very few” functions fall into that category. … Under the Court’s cases, those functions include, for example, running elections and operating a company town. … The Court has ruled that a variety of functions do not fall into that category, including, for example: running sports associations and leagues, administering insurance payments, operating nursing homes, providing special education, representing indigent criminal defendants, resolving private disputes, and supplying electricity. …

When the government provides a forum for speech (known as a public forum), the government may be constrained by the First Amendment, meaning that the government ordinarily may not exclude speech or speakers from the forum on the basis of viewpoint, or sometimes even on the basis of content[.]

By contrast, when a private entity provides a forum for speech, the private entity is not ordinarily constrained by the First Amendment because the private entity is not a state actor. The private entity may thus exercise editorial discretion over the speech and speakers in the forum. This Court so ruled in its 1976 decision in Hudgens v. NLRB. There, the Court held that a shopping center owner is not a state actor subject to First Amendment requirements such as the public forum doctrine[.]

The Hudgens decision reflects a commonsense principle: Providing some kind of forum for speech is not an activity that only governmental entities have traditionally performed. Therefore, a private entity who provides a forum for speech is not transformed by that fact alone into a state actor. After all, private property owners and private lessees often open their property for speech. Grocery stores put up community bulletin boards. Comedy clubs host open mic nights. As Judge Jacobs persuasively explained, it “is not at all a near-exclusive function of the state to provide the forums for public expression, politics, information, or entertainment[”.]

In short, merely hosting speech by others is not a traditional, exclusive public function and does not alone transform private entities into state actors subject to First Amendment constraints.

If the rule were otherwise, all private property owners and private lessees who open their property for speech would be subject to First Amendment constraints and would lose the ability to exercise what they deem to be appropriate editorial discretion within that open forum. Private property owners and private lessees would face the unappetizing choice of allowing all comers or closing the platform altogether. “The Constitution by no means requires such an attenuated doctrine of dedication of private property to public use.” … Benjamin Franklin did not have to operate his newspaper as “a stagecoach, with seats for everyone.” … That principle still holds true. As the Court said in Hudgens, to hold that private property owners providing a forum for speech are constrained by the First Amendment would be “to create a court-made law wholly disregarding the constitutional basis on which private ownership of property rests in this country.” … The Constitution does not disable private property owners and private lessees from exercising editorial discretion over speech and speakers on their property. …

A private entity … who opens its property for speech by others is not transformed by that fact alone into a state actor.

The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals and the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals both disagree with you⁠—and FYI, they cited Halleck in their (far more coherent) rulings.

Fundamentally the state holds a hammer over the head of all social media because of their control of all wired and wireless communications.

Under that logic, Internet access providers would seem to qualify as state actors far more than Twitter and its ilk ever would.

our elected officials are not shy to threaten the use of that hammer to get social media to do what they want

By all means, show me where any elected official has directly, knowingly, and intentionally used the power of their office to threaten severe legal consequences against Twitter⁠—or any other social media service⁠—if it didn’t delete legally protected third-party speech that said official didn’t like. Then show me where Twitter relented to the demands.

(“Consequences”, in this instance, must be on or above the level of “shutting Twitter down”. And for bonus points, check on how many times Trump did it while in office. I can all but guarantee that number is not “zero”.)

I have a feeling that Facebook illegally spying on and sending messenger texts directly to the FBI without a warrant will be the last straw.

Yeah, uh…if people didn’t drag their silly asses away from Facebook after finding out how far backwards it bent over to appease conservative users, politicians, and pundits? I doubt that FBI bullshit is going to make that much more of a dent in Facebook’s user numbers.

Even Mike is afraid to talk about it.

Quick question, son: Is your source for that bullshit reliable? (FYI: Your ass is not a reliable source.)

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

“Social media services are not public fora. Manhattan Community Access Corp. v. Halleck, a Supreme Court ruling from 2019 for which Justice Brett Kavanaugh wrote the majority opinion, doesn’t directly address social media but still provides the logic necessary to counter any “yes they are public fora” argument:”

Nothing in Halleck says that. It says Manhattan Community Access Corp. was not a state actor. You are confusing state actor with public forum.

Funny you say that Pruneyard cant be applied to BigTech because Twitter is not a shopping mall and then run to a narrow decision about a small local access cable company and pretend that applies to BigTech. You are such a piece of shit!

“Under that logic, Internet access providers would seem to qualify as state actors far more than Twitter and its ilk ever would.”

Absolutely if Senators were threating ISPs if they didn’t do X and ISPs did X because of the threat that would be state action.

“Then show me where Twitter relented to the demands.”

REDACTED 2021-04-22 13:14:03

“How was WH:crossed_finers:: skin-tone-3:!?”

REDACTED 2021-04-22 13:16:28

“Overall, pretty good! they had one really tough question about why Alex Berenson hadn’t been kicked off the platform; otherwise their questions were pointed but fair – and mercifully we had answers.”

Now remember in hindsight Berenson was correct. The vaccine didn’t keep you from getting sick or transmitting the virus it just reduced severity of infection, for most people. So its a therapeutic and not a vaccine, well until they changed the vaccine definition too.

“Yeah, uh…if people didn’t drag their silly asses away from Facebook after finding out how far backwards it bent over to appease conservative users, politicians, and pundits? I doubt that FBI bullshit is going to make that much more of a dent in Facebook’s user numbers.”

Facebooks lack of popularity doesn’t change the fact that Facebook engaged in illegal wiretapping for the FBI. The communication provider can only peer into communications if its either intrinsic to the provision of the service or incidental to the provision of the service. If the communication provider is just snooping that is wiretapping. Google got nailed for this in 2013 when they were snooping g-mail for better targeted advertising. They had to pay a massive fine. Personally I think there should have been criminal penalties against those involved.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Nothing in Halleck says that.

And as I’ve pointed out multiple times, two subsequent decisions by two different Courts of Appeals applied the logic of Halleck to interactive web services. Even if Halleck isn’t directly dealing with cyberspace, applying its logic to services like YouTube makes clear sense.

Funny you say that Pruneyard cant be applied to BigTech because Twitter is not a shopping mall and then run to a narrow decision about a small local access cable company and pretend that applies to BigTech.

Not…really? I mean, Pruneyard was about a shopping mall, and Twitter is nothing like a mall. If anything, Twitter would be a store within a mall⁠—and Pruneyard doesn’t apply to those. That’s why Halleck works in this context and Pruneyard doesn’t: The logic of the former is far more applicable to interactive web services than the logic of the latter.

if Senators were threating ISPs if they didn’t do X and ISPs did X because of the threat that would be state action

Do you have evidence of such threats being made to Twitter or any service provider that Twitter uses?

they had one really tough question about why Alex Berenson hadn’t been kicked off the platform; otherwise their questions were pointed but fair – and mercifully we had answers

That reads like someone saying exactly what it says on the tin: The government asked a tough question about a problematic user and whoever wrote that text said they had an answer for it. Nothing in what you quoted so much as implies a demand from the government to ban that user “or else”.

its a therapeutic and not a vaccine

I’ve had the flu after having gotten a flu shot. Vaccines aren’t a guarantee of not catching the disease against which you’ve been vaccinated⁠—but they improve the odds enough that getting one is a smart idea.

Facebooks lack of popularity doesn’t change the fact that Facebook engaged in illegal wiretapping for the FBI.

And if the government wants to hold Facebook accountable for that, it can do so via regulations and lawsuits that address the “wiretapping”.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

State Actor – You must abide by all constitutional requirements as if you were the government.

Public Forum – You can be regulated by the public in the public interest to the extent of that interest. If you wish to remove your property from that public control you need only remove your property from the public interest.

To different things.

I can do what ever the hell I want with a mother in law apartment. But the moment I start renting it out I now have to comply with literally hundreds of pages of regulation. The summary of my lightly regulated state code for landlord tenant law is over 30 pages long, again that’s the summary.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11

Public Forum – You can be regulated by the public in the public interest to the extent of that interest. If you wish to remove your property from that public control you need only remove your property from the public interest.

That’s not what Public Forum means. A Public Forum is a government-provided location for speech.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

Public Forum – You can be regulated by the public in the public interest to the extent of that interest. If you wish to remove your property from that public control you need only remove your property from the public interest.

Nope. A public forum, in the strict legal context of property, is a forum owned by the public/the government that must allow everyone to express any legally protected speech they want.

Even if Twitter is a public forum in a colloquial/social context, no law has yet ruled it to be a public forum in a legal context. Twitter has the right⁠—as does any other privately owned open-to-the-public business in cyber- and meatspace⁠—to kick out people who disturb the peace, break the rules, and generally act like disruptive little shits.

I mean, by your logic, a church would be a public forum that can’t legally kick people out for questioning the religious dogma of that church, and I don’t think you have the brass balls to seriously argue that the government should force a church to let that person stay.

Seriously, how do you not understand the phrases “privately owned” and “open to the public”? It’s like you want the law to be able to make Walmart carry some right-wing dipshit’s book if they whine loud enough about “censorship” to the government.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

I could stand in the back of a local church during sunday service and read out loud the filthiest-yet-legal text I could find and even if no-one believed I was doing so as a member of the church they’d still have the right to show me the door from their privately owned yet publicly accessible property, and no amount of lawsuits would or should allow me to force my way back into the church to keep doing that after they kicked me out.

Funny how I don’t have the right to hijack private property in order to be an asshole like that offline yet so many people want that ‘right’ online for reasons which I’m sure are completely unrelated to their personal character and the fact that other than other people like them no-one wants them around.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

I’d go with Salo if we’re being honest. But the bible is definitely one of the most violent collections of short stories ever compiled.

Too bad the “editors” decided to “moderate” out all the good stuff!
I mean if you want porn you have Susana, Solomon, and Sofia.

The semi-official Gnostic legends, in order:
Lesbianism and beastiality
Gay relations
A fallen Angel, the first witch, who raped women and then stole their baby. Which could technically be the first “trans” story. Lol. I mean, well… never mind. Go look it up. Or watch some hentai. 😉

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

the example you are giving is an example of disorderly conduct which is illegal

Yes or no: Are you saying that violating the rules set forth by a privately owned institution in a way that disturbs other people who are part of that institution is disorderly conduct that could result in the disorderly person being removed from the premises of said institution?

If “yes”: How is Twitter giving someone the boot for violating its rules not the exact same thing?

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Time for some legally-mandatory pro-Biden signs...

(Because of course this only occurred to me after I hit submit on my previous comment…)

As an additional counter to the ‘it’s not forced speech because no-one would think it’s the site’s speech’ under that argument democrat majority states or cities could mandate that every lawn and/or storefront must include a sign or poster showing support for the local and national democrat political candidates and such a law would be perfectly legal and constitutional.

Since the law would require the signs be put up(whether the home/property-owner agreed with the sign or not) there would be no confusion as to whether it was the homeowner’s speech, and if it’s not compelled speech if there’s no confusion then there would be no grounds for any legal challenges or objections.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Its absolutely relevant because its another example that for a communication company or forum to host speech is not an endorsement of that speech.

No it isn’t, because whether or not the FCC fined Dial-a-Porn has no bearing at all on whether or not whoever hosted Dial-a-Porn endorsed that speech or whether or not they could have chosen not to host Dial-a-Porn’s speech; and that’s ignoring the fact that social media services are nothing like telephone services, so it’d be a bad analogy.

There is no 1st Amendment right to censor. There is a right against compelled speech but since no reasonable person would consider it the hosts speech there is no compelled speech.

The second sentence directly contradicts the first. Additionally, the argument of the last two-thirds of the second sentence is invalid as it ignores freedom of association and the fact that boycotting (which is comparable) is also speech. A business is allowed to boycott, too.

The court does not care what unreasonable nutcases like Stephen think.

Which is why it also doesn’t care what you think.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Hosting v. Temporary Storage of Merchandise or of Property (VI)

Because AT&T was (and is) a common carrier, no one ever considered fining AT&T because of the Dial-A-Porn messages, which were hosted in the AT&T network via the Network Services Complex (NSC), which was connected to a 4ESS (National Electronic Switching System).

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Please Do Some Research Before Babbling Ignorantly!

MANS (Mass Announcement Network System) did in fact involve long term storage and one-to-infinitely many mass distribution. In addition, AT&T and other corporations provided PSPDN service long before the Internet became a big thing.

As Oldham correctly pointed out, there is nothing new about the Internet. Incompetent and unforgivably ideological judges have been ignoring decades of long-established precedents that preceded garbage like Zeran-based caselaw.

Nitwit top management of a social medium platform would be far less legally exposed

  1. if it admitted that its social medium platform provides common carriage (instead of denying the obvious) and
  2. if its social medium platform stopped violating its common carriage obligations.

Current social medium platform action exposes the social medium platform to 10s of trillions of dollars of liability and exposes top management to indictment for probable perpetration of many crimes.

[Obviously Southwick is an incompetent judge whose docket should be cleared.]

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

MANS (Mass Announcement Network System) did in fact involve long term storage and one-to-infinitely many mass distribution.

You misunderstand. By “one-to-infinitely-many”, I mean that the person can post something that can be viewed by literally anyone by design, including people who literally did not exist at the time of the last upload of that content. Mass mails/emails don’t count because, even though they can be used to send to any number of people, they are always sent to specified addresses that exist at the time they are sent. The difference is between that of a message board and that of a postal service. A message board displays content others post to everyone; a postal services transmits content from on specific location to some number of specified addresses to be viewed by specified persons.

In addition, AT&T and other corporations provided PSPDN service long before the Internet became a big thing.

Ib id. Also, even if a company is a common carrier in one context doesn’t mean they are in every context.

As Oldham correctly pointed out, there is nothing new about the Internet.

I mean, there is, but the point is moot because I’m not relying on a distinction between physical and digital.

Incompetent and unforgivably ideological judges have been ignoring decades of long-established precedents that preceded garbage like Zeran-based caselaw.

[citation needed]

Nitwit top management of a social medium platform would be far less legally exposed

if it admitted that its social medium platform provides common carriage (instead of denying the obvious) and

if its social medium platform stopped violating its common carriage obligations.

You have not demonstrated 1, so the argument fails..

Current social medium platform action exposes the social medium platform to 10s of trillions of dollars of liability and exposes top management to indictment for probable perpetration of many crimes.

[citation needed]

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 What a Dummy!

I wrote the following.

As Oldham correctly pointed out, there is nothing new about the Internet.

Dumb white racist responded.

I mean, there is, but the point is moot because I’m not relying on a distinction between physical and digital.

Unless one believes the Internet operates by magic as a dumb white racist, who supports abridgment of speech of non-whites, non-Europeans, Muslims, Arabs, and Palestinians, seems to believe, everything is physical (i.e, obeys the laws of physics).

Telegraph transmission has been a well-understood form of digital transmission since the 1840s.

The mind of anyone, who has half a brain, is boggled by the stupidity and ignorance of this dumb white racist.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

I gotta ask – is it possible for someone to think you’re an arrogant, angry, hateful person who is wrong in just about every legal argument you present, and have you NOT immediately dismiss them as a “dumb white racist?”

Are you so utterly and completely convinced that you’re right that the idea of an intelligent, reasonable person disagreeing with you is incomprehensible?

That’s… kinda sad, actually.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Are you so utterly and completely convinced that you’re right that the idea of an intelligent, reasonable person disagreeing with you is incomprehensible?

I think he’s let himself believe he’s the victim of a vast conspiracy of racism against…whatever the hell ethnicity he identifies with because he can’t stand the idea that he, and he alone, should take responsibility for personally violating the TOS of the services he’s suing to force his way back onto. Dude has a hard time with being told “no”, methinks.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Unless one believes the Internet operates by magic as a dumb white racist, who supports abridgment of speech of non-whites, non-Europeans, Muslims, Arabs, and Palestinians, seems to believe, everything is physical (i.e, obeys the laws of physics).

As opposed to the asshole who believes in being able to force others into hosting and amplifying his speech on any platform he wants only because he exists⁠—i.e., in having the imagined right to free reaach.

What makes you so special that you⁠—and you alone⁠—should have the exclusive legal right to force your speech onto Twitter, Truth Social, and literally any other platform you can think of?

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Please Learn Something about Statutory Interpretation

The post states the following.

Except that Section 230 does not say “similarly objectionable.” It says “otherwise objectionable.” By switching “otherwise objectionable” to “similarly objectionable,” Oldham is insisting that courts like his own get to determine what counts as “similarly objectionable,” and that alone is a clear 1st Amendment problem. The courts cannot decide what content a website finds objectionable. That is, yet again, the state intruding on the editorial discretion of a website.

Also, completely ridiculously, Oldham leaves out that (c)(2) does not just include that list of objectionable categories, but it states: “any action voluntarily taken in good faith to restrict access to or availability of material that the provider or user considers to be obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, excessively violent, harassing, or otherwise objectionable.” In other words, the law explicitly states that whether or not something falls into that list is up to the provider or user and not the state. To leave that out of his description of (c)(2) is beyond misleading.

Oldham uses a centuries old principle of statutory interpretation, which is called ejusdem generis — of the same sort. When a judge reads a list, he interprets the list elements to be in some way of the same sort.

When a case or controversy arises, in the US legal system a jury determines a matter of fact, and a judge determines a matter of law.

  1. To assert that the standard operation of the US legal system creates a First Amendment problem and
  2. to assert that a dispute over otherwise objectionable cannot be subject to a jury trial

is a fundamentally lawless view of the First Amendment.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

First Common Carriage Then State Action Doctrine!

[My deceased attorney predicted this course of events.]

Every White Racist Defense of Social Medium Platform Discrimination Will Soon Crumble!

A white racist defender of discrimination by a social medium platform needs to start practicing his bawling for the demise of his favorite major discriminatory social medium platform.

The action of a non-government actor becomes inextricably linked with the government and thus state action

  1. if the action of the non-government actor can only be considered unequivocally an expression of government policy,
  2. if the non-government actor is supported by the government, or
  3. if the non-government actor supports the government within a government facility or establishment.

Items [2] and [3] become especially problematic when the action, which the non-government actor undertakes, could not constitutionally or legally be undertaken by the government.

Jawboning comes under item [1] and does not create a situation of state action

  • when the non-government actor has strong means to pushback or
  • when the non-government actor can show that it undertook the action in question before the government started jawboning.

Eagle Coffee Shop of Burton came under item [3] because it paid rent to the government and in effect made the state government complicit in violation of 14th Amendment.

Suppose Delaware had allowed the Eagle Coffee Shop to use government space for free. Then the issue would have come under list item [2].

The holding of SCOTUS (right at the beginning of Perry) is important with respect to state action doctrine while the affirmance or the rejection of the outcome of the trial court has little relevance to state action doctrine.

SCOTUS points out in Perry that the school email system is not, by tradition or government designation, a forum for public communication.

In contrast, the government created the Internet to be a forum for public communication, and partial privatization does not change that designation.

A social medium platform like Twitter undertakes discriminatory action in government supported networks and systems

  • like a state college, library, or public school network,
  • like a state ISP to wit NYSERNET,
  • like a community ISP to wit Chattanooga EBP, and
  • like a federally funded broadband link.

[The government also funds a tremendous number of Internet end host devices. In pre-breakup days AT&T always defended itself against the possibility of becoming a state actor by making sure to own it’s entire network including customer premises equipment.]

The government cannot

  • participate in an action,
  • benefit from an action,
  • support an action, or
  • compel an action

by a non-government actor if the action were unconstitutional or illegal if the government undertook the action. Every social medium platform is forbidden by state action doctrine from

  • abridging user 1st Amendment rights,
  • public accommodation discrimination,
  • civil rights discrimination, and
  • common carriage discrimination

even if a supporter of social medium platform discrimination is either too racist or too stupid to accept the obvious legal truth.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: The Public Forum/State Actor Nexus is Not Complex Except to a White Racist Supporter of Discrimination by a Social Medium Platform

The Internet was and is a government-designated public forum. Partial privatization does not change the status.

If a group gets a permit to hold a public barbecue in a public park, the public barbecue constitutes state action. Otherwise the government could hold a public barbecue just for whites in a public park just by arrangement with a group, which is a non-government actor.

Of course, a private club could get a permit to hold a private barbecue just for members, but if the whites of a town set up such a private club for all the whites of a town, there may be an issue of state action if a permit is issued and probably an issue of public accommodation discrimination. A court will scrutinize the situation to determine whether a membership is really a public whites-only admission ticket.

In the past a public notice board might run on a single private computer or on a private network. State action is not involved, but the organization, which runs the system, becomes a common carrier and will have to obey state as well as federal public accommodation law as well as federal civil rights law: 42 U.S. Code §§ 1981, 1982, 1983, 1985, & 1986.

If the notice board is set up for a genuine private club or uses the “pure letters to the editor” model, obligations under the law of common carriage, public accommodation, and civil rights can probably be avoided.

The white racists of the 60s and 70s tried all the subterfuges and arguments that white racist supporters of social medium platform discrimination try to use today.

TechDirt should admit its error, renounce its racism, and denounce discrimination by a social medium platform.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Anonymous Clown Continues to Babble Incoherently

The public forum/facility makes the business of a social medium platform possible. The social medium platform’s forum/facility is wholly within the Internet. My home does not exist within a public road.

It will take SCOTUS about a microsecond to dismiss Anonymous Clown’s mindlessly stupid argument.

Here is a song for Anonymous Clown.

If I Only Had a Brain.

A white racist like Anonymous Clown must murder his mind with the poison of his racist belief.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

The social medium platform’s forum/facility is wholly within the Internet.

Then that would turn the Internet into a mall and the social interaction network into a store within the mall. Guess what? Physical stores in physical malls can’t be compelled to host third-party speech, even under Pruneyard. When even I⁠—a known dumbass!⁠—can dismantle your analogies in short order, you need better analogies.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 White Racist Mind-Rot Must Be a Physical Disorder

The Internet is a government-designated public forum/public facility.

Partial privatization does not change this status.

In truth, unless it can be shown that the government received bona fide payment for complete value in exchange for the privatization of the Internet, even the full privatization would not change the status of the Internet.

The Twitter service provides a forum/facility open to the public wholly within the public forum/public facility of the Internet.

Twitter is a state actor and may not abridge the freedom of speech within the Twitter forum/facility.

No analogy is necessary.

The argument is simple, but a cartoon plaintiff does not have the competence to make it correctly while the nitwit, who suffers white racist mind-rot, no longer has sufficient cognitive abilities to understand this straightforward argument.

A white racist supporter of discrimination by a social medium platform deserves nothing but scorn and contempt.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

The Internet is a government-designated public forum/public facility.

Assume that’s true. If Twitter were to announce today that it would shut down tomorrow, what possible action could the government take to prevent the shutdown of a privately owned interactive web service?

The Twitter service provides a forum/facility open to the public wholly within the public forum/public facility of the Internet.

And as Halleck said better than I can, Twitter opening its doors to the public doesn’t make Twitter a public forum under the law. A privately owned service like Twitter still has the right to decide who will and will not have the privilege of using the service. And yes, using Twitter is a privilege, not a right.

Twitter is a state actor

A ruling in PragerU’s lawsuit against YouTube⁠—which cites Halleck⁠—would say otherwise. Again: A privately owned institution opening its doors to the public does not make that institution a public space or a state actor, whether in cyberspace or in meatspace. To argue otherwise would be to argue that an individual Hobby Lobby store is a state actor only because the store opened its doors to the public.

a cartoon plaintiff does not have the competence to make it correctly

Well, you’re certainly right about that…but not in the way you think. 👀

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

The Internet was and is a government-designated public forum.

You need to step back a few decades to understand how that’s irrelevant to censorship.
Before the internet there was dial up services.
The service, such as CIS, or AOL, was the data. Same with any BBS like TechPro or FSM
The carrier was the phone line.

There’s an extra member in the internet. It doesn’t change how it works, it ADDS another layer

The carrier is the coaxial or fibre line, whoever may own it. The provider is the company that directs the data from one carrier to another.
The service is the private company, eg face book or twitter.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 One Common Carrier Can Make Use of a Another Common Carrier

The 1869 Massachusetts common carriage statute recognizes this obvious fact.

MGL c. 159

Section 1. Every common carrier of merchandise or other property shall receive, transport and forward all property offered for such purposes by other such carriers as promptly, faithfully and impartially, at as low rates of charge, and in a manner and on terms and conditions as favorable to the carrier offering such property, as he on the same day and at the same place receives, forwards and transports, in the ordinary course of business, property of a like description offered by persons other than such carriers. Such carrier shall not discriminate against any particular person or subject him to any undue or unreasonable prejudice or disadvantage. The supreme judicial or superior court shall have jurisdiction in equity to enforce this section.

Dialup AOL was obviously a message common carrier built on top of telephone common carriage.

For this reason, the federal government disallowed the use of common carrier status in defense from a charge of violation of 47 U.S. Code § 223 – Obscene or harassing telephone calls in the District of Columbia or in interstate or foreign communications.

Every 1996 dial-up Internet On-Ramp (Interactive Computer Service or ICS) e.g., AOL, Prodigy, Compuserve, was an obvious message common carrier.

It indicates utter technological and legal misunderstanding when the Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit incompetently asserts that 47 U.S. Code § 223 shows that a 2022 social medium platform is not a common carrier.

The statute asserts the exact opposite.

In any case, a 2022 social medium platform does not meet the 1996 ICS definition, which is found in 47 U.S. Code § 230. Only a technological nitwit believes that a 2022 social medium platform is a 1996 ICS.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Read 47 U.S. Code § 230

The US government designated the Internet a public forum long before 1996, but § 230 codifies this status.

(a) Findings

The Congress finds the following:

(1) The rapidly developing array of Internet and other interactive computer services available to individual Americans represent an extraordinary advance in the availability of educational and informational resources to our citizens.
(2) These services offer users a great degree of control over the information that they receive, as well as the potential for even greater control in the future as technology develops.
(3) The Internet and other interactive computer services offer a forum for a true diversity of political discourse, unique opportunities for cultural development, and myriad avenues for intellectual activity.
(4) The Internet and other interactive computer services have flourished, to the benefit of all Americans, with a minimum of government regulation.
(5) Increasingly Americans are relying on interactive media for a variety of political, educational, cultural, and entertainment services.

White racists try to exclude non-whites, Muslims, Arabs, and Palestine — my wife belongs to all four categories — from full use of the government-supported government-designated public forum, which is the Internet.

When a private actor, which operates wholly within the Internet, abridges the 1st Amendment rights of the public in this forum, the private actor is so inextricably intertwined with the government, such action constitutes unlawful, illegal, and unconstitutional state action.

A social medium platform has no right to censor to exclude a member of the public from a facility of the social medium platform within the Internet — just like Eagle
Coffee Shoppe of Burton.

A white racist social medium platform is toast. A plaintiff (like me) need only make the correct argument, which will resonate with SCOTUS.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

When a private actor, which operates wholly within the Internet, abridges the 1st Amendment rights of the public in this forum, the private actor is so inextricably intertwined with the government, such action constitutes unlawful, illegal, and unconstitutional state action.

You have no First Amendment rights on private property. Just as private property owners in meatspace can kick you off their property for being a disruptive little shit, owners/operators of interactive web services have every right to give someone the boot for being a disruptive little shit. Show me the law or binding legal precedent that says otherwise⁠—for cyberspace, meatspace, or both.

A social medium platform has no right to censor to exclude a member of the public from a facility of the social medium platform within the Internet — just like Eagle Coffee Shoppe of Burton

Except they do.

You can’t come up with a binding legal precedent that says otherwise, and your lolsuit⁠—which was already booted by SCOTUS!⁠—isn’t a binding legal precedent. You can’t come up with any argument other than “white racism” to explain why anyone should have the imagined (and bullshit) right of free reach. You can’t do a damn thing to stop anyone from kicking disruptive little shits off of their property in both cyber- and meatspace.

Until you can come up with a better, simpler argument for compelled hosting of speech⁠—an argument that isn’t a bunch of legal gobbledygook that even I, a known dumbass, knows is bullshit? You’ll never be anything more than a disruptive little shit who has deluded himself into thinking (and all apologies to Bianca Belair here) he’s the EST of the legal profession.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

“Except they do.”

They never did. They had a legal privilaged until the law said differently just like it says with Eagle Coffee Shoppe of Burton. The Texas law now says differently.

As I have always said this was never a Constitutional argument. This was very well moneyed and powerful people attempting to carve out a Constitutional right only for them by bribing judges and anyone else they could.

There was never any “right” only a legal privilege. The Texas law limits that privilege.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

The Texas law now says differently.

And the Texas law is unconstitutional on at least First Amendment grounds⁠—after all, the Texas government (or the federal government) shouldn’t have the right to decide what speech an interactive web service will and won’t host. I mean, for what possible reason should the law force a queer-friendly Masto instance to host anti-queer propaganda?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

I asked you: “In what way does a social media site differ from any other site that allows user content, like a message board, such that Twitter is a state actor and the message board site isn’t?”

Your response is a lot of words that don’t answer the question.

A current message board site (for example, any site that uses Simple Machines Forum software), can be open for anyone to register and post, just like Twitter. It’s available on the Internet, just like Twitter. Therefore, by your argument, it should be considered a state actor, just like Twitter.

And if not, please explain in what way a message board is different from Twitter such that it wouldn’t be a state actor under your argument. Otherwise, your argument makes any website that is open for users to upload content that is visible to others (For example, YouTube, Twitter, Ebay, Craigslist, 4chan, Steam, rabbittalk.com, forum.knittinghelp.com, etc.) all state actors, which is a ridiculous argument.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Very True

“The white racists of the 60s and 70s tried all the subterfuges and arguments that white racist supporters of social medium platform discrimination try to use today.”

This is actually very true. The whole wink and a nudge public to private was a major part of Jim Crow. The government can legally do it so with a wink and a nudge they would get private actors to do it.

Using private actors to get around constitutional restrictions on state power is not exactly a new idea.

Thats why laws like “Conspiracy Against Rights” exist today.

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Chozen (profile) says:

No Such Right

“There’s then a long and, again, nonsensical discussion of common carriers, basically saying that the state can magically declare social media websites common carriers. I’m not even going to give that argument the satisfaction of covering it, it is so disconnected from reality. Social media literally meets none of the classifications of traditional common carriers. The fact that Oldham claims, that “the Platforms are no different than Verizon or AT&T” makes me question how anyone could take anything in this ruling seriously.”

“That paragraph alone is scary. It basically argues that the state can now compel any speech it wants on private property, as it reinterprets the 1st Amendment to mean that the only thing it limits is the power of the state to remove speech,”

Are you making a 1st Amendment argument or a 4th Amendment argument because here it appears you are blending the two.

On 4th Amendment we are right back to Munn. If you don’t want your private property regulated in the public interest, you need only remove it from the public interest. Until then you open yourself to state regulation.

“Except that’s the whole point. The websites do engage in editorial control. The difference from newspapers is that it’s ex post control.”

Yes that is the whole point. If the control is priori then it clearly is the speech of host. The host made the choice to publish that editorial or letter to the editor. Newspapers have been successfully sued for letters to the editor because they chose to publish that letter out of thousands. If its post hoc no reasonable person would consider it your speech.

“So, if I read that correctly, websites can now continue to moderate only if they pre-vet all content they post. Which is also nonsense.”

Or you can just moderate within the bounds of the Texas law.

Back to the point. You have zero First Amendment right to censor speech as the host because no reasonable person would consider it your speech. No reasonable person ever considered a Donald Trump tweets on Twitter to be Twitters speech.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

You have zero First Amendment right to censor speech as the host because no reasonable person would consider it your speech.

Irrelevant. The law allows people in both cyber- and meatspace to refuse hosting third-party speech. Please cite the law or binding legal precedent that says Twitter, Facebook, 4chan, Mastodon instances, or even Techdirt can’t remove any legally protected third-party speech under any and all circumstances.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

“force speech onto platforms that otherwise wouldn’t host it”

Again not their speech. No business open to the public has a right to refuse service. They have a legal privilege to refuse service based on the law federal, state, and local. But there is no “Constitutional Right!!!”

This is where we get to that whole stupid.

You: ‘I can throw you out if I want to my property!’

Me: ‘I’ve bounced all of the country, in most states you cant.’

You: ‘Well you can in Texas. So you are wrong!’

Me: ‘lol’

You are too stupid to realize that you proved the point. It has nothing to do with “rights” but statutory law. Yes Texas is one of the few states in the union that allows employees to physically remove customers. But that isn’t an issue of “Property Rights” or that would be legal in every state in the Union which its actually illegal in almost every state in the Union. Its solely about what the law says in that state.

Which comes back to Mike’s stupidity. BigTech has had this desire to have what they do be labeled a Constitutional Right rather than a legal privilege. Now this approach is coming back to bite them in the ass because the fundamental idea that its “their speech” was never a tenable position. Now the dam is breaking.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

No business open to the public has a right to refuse service.

Even if this is true, a business does have the right to set the conditions upon which service is offered, with certain limitations: “We will provide our services to you, but you have to follow these rules. If you do not, services will not be provided.”

You: ‘I can throw you out if I want to my property!’
Me: ‘I’ve bounced all of the country, in most states you cant.’

Again, even if this is true and I can’t physically remove you myself, if I tell you to leave and you don’t, you’re trespassing. Then I can call the police, who most certainly can physically remove you.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

No business open to the public has a right to refuse service.

Actually, they do. A privately owned business that opens its doors to the public can refuse serivce to any customer so long as that refusal doesn’t clash with non-discrimination laws. Or have you never seen or heard the phrase “no shirt, no shoes, no service” once in your life?

With the exception of those non-discrimination laws, the government can’t force a privately owned business to serve anyone. And those non-discrimination laws exist because while open-to-the-public businesses elect to serve the general public, they don’t get to decide who makes up “the general public”. Those laws supercede the right of association because society benefits when everyone can more fully participate in society.

Being banned from Twitter for saying racist bullshit doesn’t stop anyone from doing that. I don’t have a Twitter account and I’m no less a member of society than anyone who does have one.

Texas is one of the few states in the union that allows employees to physically remove customers

No, see, pretty much any employee could physically remove a customer. The vast majority of businesses⁠—especially mega-corp franchises like Walmart and McDonald’s⁠—discourage employees from physically interacting with unruly/lawbreaking customers (often with threats of “you’ll lose your job if you do it”) because their doing so could lead to lawsuits.

If you’re on someone else’s property and you break their rules, they’re allowed to toss you on your ass⁠—figuratively or literally. That goes just as much for a private residence as it does for a privately owned open-to-the-public business. Can you prove me wrong, fucker?

that isn’t an issue of “Property Rights”

Except it is an issue of property rights. The owner of a piece of property that isn’t public/government property has every right to determine who is and isn’t welcome on that property. Again, that applies to privately owned property of all kinds⁠—businesses just have a few less options in that regard (thanks to non-discrimination laws) than residences and churches and such. Can you prove me wrong, fucker?

Now this approach is coming back to bite them in the ass because the fundamental idea that its “their speech” was never a tenable position.

No, the fundamental idea is that Twitter shouldn’t be forced to host speech it otherwise wouldn’t host. Nothing in the law or in any binding legal precedent says Twitter⁠—or any private entity, for that matter⁠—should be forced to host all third-party speech so long as that speech is legal.

What you’re saying is that Twitter should be forced into doing that, even if Twitter doesn’t want to associate itself with speech that violates its TOS⁠—or anyone posting that speech. What you’re saying is there’s a right to free reach on the property of any business that opens its doors to the public. What you’re saying is the law should compel Twitter to host all legal speech under any and all circumstances⁠—and at any and all costs to Twitter’s financial and reputational bottom line.

In short, you’re spitting in the metaphorical face of the First Amendment so you can “own the libs”.

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Chozen (profile) says:

“What you’re saying is that Twitter should be forced into doing that, even if Twitter doesn’t want to associate itself with speech that violates its TOS⁠—or anyone posting that speech. What you’re saying is there’s a right to free reach on the property of any business that opens its doors to the public. What you’re saying is the law should compel Twitter to host all legal speech under any and all circumstances⁠—and at any and all costs to Twitter’s financial and reputational bottom line.”

You just made a 4th Amendment argument.

“In short, you’re spitting in the metaphorical face of the First Amendment so you can “own the libs”.”

And you call it a 1st Amendment issue.

Fuck sticks you are a moron.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

That is not disorderly conduct, that is 1st amendment protected speech.

Why is it any different when you do it inside a Walmart vs online on Twitter?

They are both private businesses open to the public. They both have “rules” that need to be adhered to in order to stay within the business.

Doesn’t your 1st amendment rights to be a racists on Twitter allow you to be a racist in Walmart?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

You just made a 4th Amendment argument. … And you call it a 1st Amendment issue.

I don’t see how “the government can’t and shouldn’t have the right to make people host speech they don’t want to host” has more to do with unreasonable searches and seizures than the rights of free speech and free association. But I’m willing to argue for both if you’re willing to argue against both.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re:

On 4ht Amendment we are right back to Munn which is the case law upon which all business regulation sits.

“When the owner of property devotes it to a use in which the public has an interest, he in effect grants to the public an interest in such use, and must, to the extent of that interest, submit to be controlled by the public, for the common good, as long as he maintains the use. He may withdraw his grant by discontinuing the use.”

Again givne your intrepretation of the Constitiution you invalidate OSHA, you invalidate the Clean Air Act, you invalidate labor law, you invalidate almost everything the regulates business in the United States.

You do not really believe in your interpretation of the Constitution. If you did you would advocate for it application in all cases. Instead you want it only to apply to BigTech.

You want a special interpretation of all rights that applies only to BigTech.

You have no first principles.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

When the owner of property devotes it to a use in which the public has an interest, he in effect grants to the public an interest in such use, and must, to the extent of that interest, submit to be controlled by the public, for the common good, as long as he maintains the use. He may withdraw his grant by discontinuing the use.

None of that means a privately owned open-to-the-public business becomes a public forum (again, see Halleck).

When a business opens its doors to the public, it becomes subject to numerous laws and regulations. Some of those include non-discrimination ordinances. But those laws and regulations do not⁠—and cannot⁠—force such a business to host all legally protected third-party speech. If that were true, a member of the Klan could legally post Klan propaganda in the window of a Black-owned business without the owner being able to do a goddamn thing about it.

Show me a binding legal precedent that says the government can legally force, say, Walmart to sell a certain book and I’ll concede the point. But I don’t think you have anything besides your First Amendment–insulting assertion that a privately owned open-to-the-public business must host all legal speech, Mr. Public House-ing.

You want a special interpretation of all rights that applies only to BigTech.

What I want (and what we currently have) is an interpretation of the law that allows any interactive web service⁠—from the almighty Twitter to the far, far, far smaller democracy.town Mastodon instance⁠—to refuse hosting any kind of speech that the people who run those services don’t want on their platforms. I’ve never said anything to the contrary and you can’t prove otherwise.

I mean, do you really believe the law should force oulipo.social into letting its members to use the letter E?

You have no first principles.

At least I have chicken.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

When the owner of property devotes it to a use in which the public has an interest, he in effect grants to the public an interest in such use, and must, to the extent of that interest, submit to be controlled by the public, for the common good, as long as he maintains the use. He may withdraw his grant by discontinuing the use.

Name one business that this applies to.

Does this mean I have control over my local McDonalds?

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

The Ignorance and Illogic of a Dumb White Racist Could Fill the Rose Bowl

The dumb white racist is unable to comprehend a simple legal opinion.

By contrast, when a private entity provides a forum for speech, the private entity is not ordinarily constrained by the First Amendment because the private entity is not a state actor. The private entity may thus exercise editorial discretion over the speech and speakers in the forum. This Court so ruled in its 1976 decision in Hudgens v. NLRB. There, the Court held that a shopping center owner is not a state actor subject to First Amendment requirements such as the public forum doctrine[.]

The dumb white racist is unable to comprehend that the Internet is a government-supported goverment-designated public forum,

  1. wherein freedom of speech may not be abridged and
  2. wherein a private entity, which tries to void the First Amendment in this public forum or in a part of this public forum, is so inextricably intertwined with the government that its inequitable action becomes unlawful and unconstitutional state action.

The dumb white racist is unable to comprehend that a precedent is only a precedent when the succeeding case has the same particulars as the preceding case.

The dumb white racist is also unable to comprehend that if Woodie Guthrie sings his song, the song is his speech, but if I keep a record of his songs in my record collection or if I stock a record of his songs in my record store, the vinyl records do not become speech. A vinyl record of Guthrie’s songs is either property in my record collection or merchandise in my store.

Not only does no one in his right mind confuse such a record with my speech, but such a record neither infringes nor abridges my First Amendment rights even if the words of the song offends me. In contrast, the words of the dumb white racist are metaphorically an emetic to anyone that has at least half a brain.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

the Internet is a government-supported goverment-designated public forum,

No it’s not, and no amount of repetition on your part will make it so. First, the Internet is not wholly contained within the US, so the US literally doesn’t have the power to designate the entire Internet as a public forum, even if it wanted to.

Second, most of the physical infrastructure of the Internet is owned by private companies. If the government withdrew from and/or shut down every part of the Internet that it did support, would the average user even notice? I doubt it.

a precedent is only a precedent when the succeeding case has the same particulars as the preceding case.

Then all the cases you love quoting, like Perry and Burton, are irrelevant because they don’t have the same particulars. If Twitter was a state actor, it would get qualified immunity.

The dumb white racist is also unable to comprehend that if Woodie Guthrie sings his song, the song is his speech, but if I keep a record of his songs in my record collection or if I stock a record of his songs in my record store, the vinyl records do not become speech. A vinyl record of Guthrie’s songs is either property in my record collection or merchandise in my store.

But the choice to stock, or not to stock, that record in your store is your speech. And it’s protected.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: The White Racist Dummy Continues to Show His Total Ignorance of Law and of Technolovgy

It’s important to show the world exactly how stupid and ignorant a white racist/elitist dummy is that supports discrimination by a social medium platform.

No it’s not, and no amount of repetition on your part will make it so. First, the Internet is not wholly contained within the US, so the US literally doesn’t have the power to designate the entire Internet as a public forum, even if it wanted to.

If opposing counsel made such a stupid argument, the judge would roll his eyes in disbelief — I’ve seen it happen.

A public park can span a plurality of countries, e.g., Peace Arch Historical State Park. The part of the park in the USA is a public forum.

I discuss the history of the Internet in my filings to the Court of Appeals for the First Circuit and for the Supreme Court of the United States.

In my petition to SCOTUS for writ of certiorari before judgment of the Court of Appeals for the First Circuit, I was discussing the history of the Internet from the standpoint of arguing that the Internet was a place of public accommodation for entertainment and for exhibition, but the government’s Advanced Research Projects Administration told us — I was an early developer — that the ARPANET (later Internet) was intended to be a public forum for public discussion. Section 230, which the white racist dummy has probably never read, confirms this designation.

See footnote 9 on page 22 in the Petition.

In 1969 the ARPANET connected four independent network nodes located in the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA), in the Stanford Research Institute (SRI), in the University of California-Santa Barbara (UCSB), and in the University of Utah. The ARPANET was a place of accommodation that one entered at each of these four locations. The Internet, into which the ARPANET expanded, hardly ceases to be a place [of accommodation] because it has become larger and open to the public.

When the ARPANET/Internet was opened to the public, ARPA announced that this national network was a new (government-designated) public forum. The ignorant white racist/elitist dummy continues with his analysis, which does not reach the level of moronic.

Second, most of the physical infrastructure of the Internet is owned by private companies. If the government withdrew from and/or shut down every part of the Internet that it did support, would the average user even notice? I doubt it.

A plurality (maybe a majority) of Internet technology within the US consists of government (or government-supported) networks, end hosts, links, servers, and other miscellaneous devices. A lot of the ISPs in the US are run by the government while the government runs or foots the bill for most of the IAPs and NSPs.

If the government withdrew all of its technology and support for the Internet from the Internet, the US Internet would consist of a bunch of disconnected networks.

In addition, it’s a serious issue that a social medium platform does not own the entire network infrastructure down to the Customer Premises Equipment (CPE).

What right does a social medium platform have to discriminate against groups of the public in a network infrastructure that the social medium does not own?

In the pre-breakup days, AT&T was always careful to own its whole network down to every piece of CPE precisely so that it did not run afoul of such an issue.

Anonymous Clown is a depraved evil hate-filled white racist/elitist dummy, who is desperate to bring back Jim Crow days. He deserves absolute scorn, hatred, and loathing from every decent human being.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

A public park can span a plurality of countries

And if Twitter were a public park, that might mean something.

the Internet was a place of public accommodation for entertainment and for exhibition

You wanna know how that argument comes back to bite you on the ass? Privately owned public accomodation businesses in meatspace can’t be forced to host all third-party speech only because they open their doors to the public (which is one of the primary points of Halleck).

the government’s Advanced Research Projects Administration told us … that the ARPANET (later Internet) was intended to be a public forum for public discussion

Then the government should’ve kept control of the Internet. But since a healthy chunk of it is now controlled by private entities…well, that sucks for you (and your argument).

Section 230 … confirms this designation.

No. No, it does not.

When the ARPANET/Internet was opened to the public, ARPA announced that this national network was a new (government-designated) public forum.

The government lays down, owns, and maintains many of the roads that connect private residences to private businesses. That doesn’t make any of those places public forums. Now apply that logic to cyberspace: The government may have laid down the initial “roads” of the Internet, but that fact alone doesn’t turn any interactive web service into a government-owned public forum that must host all legal speech. If it did, Twitter wouldn’t be a privately owned service⁠—it would be an extension of the government, and that isn’t true by any stretch of the imagination.

A lot of the ISPs in the US are run by the government

I’d bet that all the people who own and operate U.S.-based Mastodon servers will be surprised to know that they’re actually agents of the U.S. federal government.

(Did someone hit you on the head when you were a kid, or did you give yourself brain damage as part of a bet?)

If the government withdrew all of its technology and support for the Internet from the Internet, the US Internet would consist of a bunch of disconnected networks.

Too bad you’ll never get to prove your point. Even the U.S. government relies on the Internet to function as smoothly as possible.

What right does a social medium platform have to discriminate against groups of the public in a network infrastructure that the social medium does not own?

Under U.S. law? So far as I know, it can’t legally discriminate against certain classes of people because of non-discrimination laws. But “people who espouse hate speech” isn’t a protected class.

The vast majority of social media services moderate on the basis of the words and deeds of its users⁠—which is to say, if a given user posts hate speech or harasses another user, the service is likely to ban the disruptive little shit no matter their gender/sex, race/ethnicity, age, weight, sexual orientation, religious affiliation, political affiliation, or any other arbitrary factors or inherent traits. Back when I used Twitter, I once got temporarily suspended for using an anti-gay slur during an argument about anti-gay attitudes; do you really think Twitter’s moderation team gave a fuck about any part of my identity when they did that?

Anonymous Clown is a depraved evil hate-filled white racist/elitist dummy

The people disagreeing with you here don’t give a single fuck about your race/ethnic heritage. We give a fuck about you trying to make the law give you the right to free reach⁠—a right that would always come at the cost of curtailing someone else’s freedoms of speech and association. Accusing other people of racism only because they’ve disagreed with (and dismantled) your pulled-from-your-ass arguments is a shitty gimmick. Get a new one.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Can the White Racist Dummy Read?

Only a complete nitwit babbles incoherently about cyberspace. The Internet is a real physical government-created, government-supported public facility.

Has the white racist dummy read 47 U.S. Code § 230 – Protection for private blocking and screening of offensive material?

SCOTUS rarely pays attention to a declaratory prologue to a statute, but it will in this situation.

[In clauses (f)(2) and (f)(4), § 230 defines Interactive Computer Service to be an Internet On-Ramp, which is an obsolete 1996 technology.]

47 U.S. Code § 230

(a) FindingsThe Congress finds the following:
(1) The rapidly developing array of Internet and other interactive computer services available to individual Americans [members of the public] represent an extraordinary advance in the availability of educational and informational resources [creates a public forum] to our citizens [the public].
(2) These services offer users a great degree of control over the information that they receive, as well as the potential for even greater control in the future as technology develops.
(3) The Internet and other interactive computer services [Internet On-Ramps] offer a forum for a true diversity of political discourse, unique opportunities for cultural development, and myriad avenues for intellectual activity. [Statement of Public Forum]
(4) The Internet and other interactive computer services have flourished, to the benefit of all Americans [the Public], with a minimum of government regulation.
(5) Increasingly Americans are relying on interactive media for a variety of political, educational, cultural, and entertainment services.

(b) Policy
It is the policy of the United States—
(1) to promote the continued development of the Internet and other interactive computer services [Internet On-Ramps] and other interactive media;
(2) to preserve the vibrant and competitive free market that presently exists for the Internet and other interactive computer services [Internet On-Ramps], unfettered by Federal or State regulation;
(3) to encourage the development of technologies which maximize user control [not control by private hi-tech mega corporations] over what information is received by individuals, families, and schools who use the Internet and other interactive computer services [Internet On-Ramps];
(4) to remove disincentives for the development and utilization of blocking and filtering technologies that empower parents to restrict their children’s access to objectionable or inappropriate online material; and
(5) to ensure vigorous enforcement of Federal criminal laws to deter and punish trafficking in obscenity, stalking, and harassment by means of computer.

Partial privatization of a public forum does not change its public forum status. A US park can contain a private restaurant, a private hotel, or a private shop and remain a public forum.

The Internet has only been partially privatized, and even if it had been fully privatized, there would still be a question of purchase for value.

A plurality (maybe a majority) of Internet technology within the US consists of government (or government-supported) networks, end hosts, links, servers, and other miscellaneous devices. A lot of the ISPs in the US are run by the government while the government runs or foots the bill for most of the IAPs and NSPs.

If the government withdrew all of its technology and support for the Internet from the Internet, the US Internet would consist of a bunch of disconnected networks.

In addition, it’s a serious issue that a social medium platform does not own the entire network infrastructure down to the Customer Premises Equipment (CPE).

What right does a social medium platform have to discriminate against groups of the public in a network infrastructure that the social medium does not own?

In the pre-breakup days, AT&T was always careful to own its whole network down to every piece of CPE precisely so that it did not run afoul of such an issue.

Stephen T. Stone is a depraved evil hate-filled white racist/elitist dummy, who is desperate to bring back Jim Crow days. He deserves absolute scorn, hatred, and loathing from every decent human being.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

In clauses (f)(2) and (f)(4), § 230 defines Interactive Computer Service to be an Internet On-Ramp

Only in your markup. The actual text of the law makes no such declaration; it doesn’t even use the term “on-ramp”.

Partial privatization of a public forum does not change its public forum status. A US park can contain a private restaurant, a private hotel, or a private shop and remain a public forum.

Again: If Twitter were a public park, that might mean something. But the privately owned businesses within public spaces don’t become public spaces themselves only because of where they’re located⁠—they still have the right to kick out disruptive little shits for being exactly that. Hell, for all the citations of Pruneyard going around in this comments section, even that case doesn’t extend its few meager protections to the insides of actual privately owned businesses within a mall.

The rest of your post is copypasta’d from an earlier post and I’ve already run that shit down, including your limp-dicked “racism” argument.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 TechDirt's Commenting System is Not Flexible Enough to Explain How to Parse the Statutory Definition of an ICS

To understand ICS, we have to perform Markman Hearing-style analysis.

  1. First one must analyse the definition of an Access Software Provider: So What was a 1996 § 230 Access Software Provider?
  2. Then one analyzes the usage within the US Code: What is an Interactive Computer Service?.
  3. Then one applies careful transformational grammar analysis to put the definition in a more comprehensible form: What Is an Interactive Computer Service by Careful Grammatical and Syntactic Analysis?
    .

An ICS is a 1996 Internet On-Ramp. A 2022 social medium platform does not meet the definition of an ICS. 47 U.S. Code § 230 does not apply to a 2022 social medium platform, but arguendo I am will to pretend that § 230 does apply to a 2022 social medium platform.

I never lose in a Markman Hearing. Eric Goldman is a copyright lawyer. A Markman Hearing is an element of patent law. Goldman has no knowledge of technology law, which is associated with Title 35 (patents) or with Title 47 (telecommunications).

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

An ICS is a 1996 Internet On-Ramp. A 2022 social medium platform does not meet the definition of an ICS.

The people who wrote Section 230 disagree with you. Who should I believe: some jackass spouting inane legal theories as if they carry the weight of actual fact and actual law, or the lawmakers who wrote a law that has stood the test of time for nearly three decades?

I never lose in a Markman Hearing.

Pride goeth before a fall. Watch your step.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: I wonder whether Anonymous Clown Drools Uncontrollably As He Types

The clueless white racist/elitist dummy still does not get it. A social medium platform is not a store. A social medium platform provides message common carriage and violates the law when it refuses to provide message common carriage on the basis of message content.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

A social medium platform provides message common carriage and violates the law when it refuses to provide message common carriage on the basis of message content.

Yes or no: Can you offer any law or binding legal precedent that says Twitter has done something illegal/unlawful when it deletes, say, a tweet with the N-word in it?

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 A Common Carrier and Hazardous Material

A common carrier has a limited right to refuse carriage when a customer requests carriage of hazardous material.

A tweet may fit into this category, and § 230 (c)(2)(A) is consistent in some situations with putting such a tweet in the hazardous material category.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

A common carrier has a limited right to refuse carriage when a customer requests carriage of hazardous material.

The N-word, like all other slurs, is a form of legally protected speech. According to every argument you’ve ever made on this site since you started your trolling campaign here, you appear to believe Twitter should be forced to host all legally protected speech under any and all circumstances.

I ask you again: Can you offer any citation of law or binding legal precedent that says Twitter has done something illegal/unlawful when it deletes, say, a tweet with the N-word in it?

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

An entity offers common carriage if it holds out carriage (1) to the public (2) under uniform terms (3) for a fee.

Can you cite any law or binding legal precedent that says what Twitter does is common carriage? Please note that neither your lolsuit nor your opinions qualify as binding legal precedent.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 The White Racist Dummy Continues to Babble Incoherently

Nothing is truly binding until SCOTUS says it is, and even then it is only binding until a later SCOTUS says it’s not.

That said, here are two authorities:

  1. Netchoice, L.L.C. v. Paxton, No. 21-51178 (5th Cir. 2022), September 16, 2022
  2. Ohio ex rel Yost v. Google LLC, Case No. 21-CV-H-06-0274 (Ohio Ct. Common Pleas), Opinion and Order, May 24, 2022.

McMahon told me I was obviously correct, but he also observed that an appellate Court does not like to create a circuit split. He believed

  1. that first one or two Courts would state that Twitter and other social medium platforms obviously perform common carriage and
  2. that within 4 to 6 months there would be a flood of Courts of Appeals that would agree.
Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Nothing is truly binding until SCOTUS says it is

If that’s true, then the citations you gave aren’t legally binding precedent and therefore don’t answer my question.

Yes or no: Can you provide a citation of law or legally binding (SCOTUS-approved) precedent that says Twitter is a common carrier? Please note that the precedent must say Twitter, or all services like it, are common carriers. Please also note that your lolsuit and your opinions don’t count.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 No Purely Internet-Based Social Medium Platform Seems to Exist before 2003

AOL like Prodigy or Compuserve was an Internet On-Ramp (Interactive Computer Service or ICS) and represented a different sort of technology.

Social medium platform technology has only existed for 19 years, and a question, which specifically relates to this technology is only just now getting to SCOTUS. There are at least 3 lawsuits, which beside mine address the common carrier status of a social medium platform.

At present, there is no binding precedent that asserts a social medium platform isn’t a common carrier.

All the parties to these 4 lawsuits will have their day in Court. Because Martillo v. Twitter is a Title II Civil Rights Act case, it goes to SCOTUS by right of appeal and not by discretionary grant of cert, SCOTUS will answer the question of common carriage status within the next 2 to 3 years

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

At present, there is no binding precedent that asserts a social medium platform isn’t a common carrier.

Until such time as that precedent exists, stop acting like it does. Under the current state of U.S. law, Twitter⁠—and social media services like it⁠—are not common carriers. Your wanting them to be common carriers so you can force them to carry your speech doesn’t make it so, you fascist fuck.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 The Present State of the Law

In the present state of law, a social medium platform is not not-a-common-carrier. Justices Thomas believes a social medium platform is, and possibly three other Justices already agree with him.

There was a reason for Twitter and for Medium to barge into the Court of Appeals for the First Circuit even though neither had received a summons. I have a lot of experience with the Court of Appeals for the DC Circuit. I can help my Counsel persuade Kavanaugh.

At least two of the 6 named Defendants understood the implications of Martillo v. Twitter. Two did not have the money to participate while Facebook and LinkedIn believe themselves untouchable. They may have a rude surprise.

A white racist/elitist dummy like Stephen T. Stone will bawl his eyes out when every discriminatory social medium platform loses hundreds of billions to trillions of dollars in Court. The hope for a new Jim Crow will be utterly dashed.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

In the present state of law, a social medium platform is not not-a-common-carrier.

This is as inane a statement as “I didn’t vote for Trump, I voted against Clinton”⁠—you can phrase it however you want to justify your beliefs, but the underlying conceit of “Twitter isn’t a common carrier under the law” is still correct.

Justices Thomas believes a social medium platform is, and possibly three other Justices already agree with him.

Three things.

  1. [citation needed]
  2. Justice Thomas forgets that if the Founding Fathers’ views still actually ruled this country (like he thinks they should), he’d be considerd a piece of property to buy and sell under the laws of their time, so I don’t really give a fuck what he thinks.
  3. Until SCOTUS puts that shit in writing as part of a ruling that becomes binding legal precedent across the entire country, what those judges may believe isn’t binding legal precedent.

I can help my Counsel persuade Kavanaugh.

You must first reach the Supreme Court. They said “fuck off” in legalese when you last tried to get there.

They may have a rude surprise.

When you lose, you may have a ruder awakening.

Also: That DARVO shit with the “white racist” insults and the claims about “a new Jim Crow” isn’t working here. You’re coming here to defend the idea that you should have the right to stomp on people’s civil rights by forcing your speech onto their platforms. I’m here to defend the idea that no one should have that right.

Only one of the two of us is here to talk about how much they want to hurt other people by way of changing the law. Only one of the two of us is a self-aggrandizing fascist prick who thinks saying “common carrier” over and over like a prayer to God will somehow warp reality to fit his viewpoint. That sure as shit ain’t me, so…yeah…

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Where's the Beef (the Notice Board), Dummy?

The described public notice board is a material board to which a member affixes a material message. The material board provides neither message switching nor message common carriage.

Twitter provides store and forward message switching and message common carriage among users. Twitter temporarily stores a message in a backend database system while the message is on the way to an end user by message common carriage.

The white racist dummy is confused by the frontend model (a pure concept or abstract idea) that makes it easier for an end user to interact with Twitter’s system.

In other words,

  1. Twitter’s system has no similarity whatsoever to the material notice board and
  2. the white racist dummy has no comprehension of Internet technology whatsoever.

Duh!

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Your description of Twitter as a store and forward service in incorrect on one important point, Twitter does not forward messages, store them for retrieval by all interested parties. Under your logic, any online shop dispatching goods via common carrier to its customers would also be a common carrier, and especially if they are an online market connecting buyers and sellers.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 Anonymous Clown Continues to Show Himself to Be a Depraved Racist and Complete Idiot

Excuse me — some clarification, please!

I use Amazon Whole Foods for online shopping and delivery.

I just paid $224.16 of which $14.95 was a common carriage service fee for the goods.

Amazon software

  1. runs on my browser (or in an app on my mobile device) and
  2. forwards a message by message common carriage of a digital text message from its single-page browser application (or from its app on my mobile device) to an Amazon backend server.

Thus Amazon does message common carriage of a digital text message as well as common carriage of grocery goods.

Amazon is not stupid like Twitter. Amazon is always careful to dot every ‘i’ and to cross every ‘t’ with respect to Massachusetts common carriage law.

Amazon never removes an Amazon user from its service. As far as I know, Amazon never removes user content even if the user content is a bad review.

The Amazon legal department obviously knows how nasty Massachusetts law is in punishing a common carrier that denies common carriage — either message common carriage or common carriage of goods.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

$14.95 was a common carriage service fee for the goods

Shipping and handling charges are not a charge for “common carriage”. Besides, if a grocery store was a common carrier, it couldn’t refuse to sell any product that it didn’t want to sell. Are you seriously going to tell me that a grocery store with an online shopping component can’t refuse to carry certain brands of food⁠ only because of the online shopping component?

Amazon never removes an Amazon user from its service.

As with damn near everything else you assert as a fact, you’re wrong.

As far as I know, Amazon never removes user content even if the user content is a bad review.

Wrong again, dumbass.

Go inflict your ignorance somewhere else, asshole.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 I Should Have Been More Specific

I meant a user that purchases goods or avails himself of Amazon common carriage service. Such a user represents the vast majority of Amazon users.

My meaning would have been obvious to anyone with half a brain, but Stephen T. Stone long ago murdered his mind with the poison of his racism and his elitism.

Every user,

  1. who was suspended or
  2. whose content was removed,

was making use of a service other than the purchase of goods, common carriage of merchandise, or message common carriage.

The white racist/elitist is so desperate to score points in his quest to bring back Jim Crow that he blathers any ridiculous nonsense.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

a user that purchases goods or avails himself of Amazon common carriage service

Show me the law or binding legal precedent that definitively says anything Amazon does in regards to commercial sales through an online storefront is “common carriage”, such that Amazon cannot refuse to carry any product it wishes to not carry.

Every user, who was suspended or whose content was removed, was making use of a service other than the purchase of goods, common carriage of merchandise, or message common carriage.

Prove it.

The white racist/elitist is so desperate to score points in his quest to bring back Jim Crow that he blathers any ridiculous nonsense.

…says the fascist who wants the law to let him force his speech onto any private property he wants no matter what the owners say.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

When yo can hand a parcel to Amazon for delivery to somebody else, not including those traders using Amazon logistics, you can claim they are common carriers. They are private carriers when they use their own logistics for their own goods, and private contract carriers when they offer logistics to traders using their market place, and ordinary customers when they use peoples logistics, including the common carrier services of the postal system.

Also, if Twitter becomes a common carrier because using the Internet to connect itself with users, then you also become a common carrier for doing the same thing, because you computers become as much part of the Internet as Twitters servers are.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 More Ignorant Nonsense from Anonymous Clown

Unlike a social medium platform or Amazon, I don’t hold out common carriage to anyone.

The basic concepts of common carriage seem too complex for a depraved evil racist dummy like Anonymous Clown, who has murdered his mind with the poison of his racial supremacist belief.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

the Internet is a government-supported goverment-designated public forum

No, the Internet is a communications network. To use a meatspace analogy: The Internet is a series of roads, not the buildings (websites) to which they connect. Some buildings may be owned by the government, but a vast majority of them are not.

if Woodie Guthrie sings his song, the song is his speech, but if I keep a record of his songs in my record collection or if I stock a record of his songs in my record store, the vinyl records do not become speech

And that has fuck-all to do with the fact that, as the owner of that record store, you have the right to choose whether you’ll stock his records⁠—and no one, including the government, can make that decision for you.

If the government can’t make you sell (or not sell) a certain artist’s work in a privately owned open-to-the-public business that makes use of publicly owned roads and is regulated by the government, for what reason should the government make Twitter host (or not host) any third party speech it doesn’t want to host? Please note that “but nobody thinks it’s Twitter’s speech” is a non-starter argument in this context.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

A Question for a Dumb White Racist

Here are two questions for a dumb white racist that wants to abridge freedom of expression in the vast state-supported state-designated public forum that is the Internet.

Is all the content not removed by a social medium platform the speech of the social medium platform?

Or is all the content not removed by a social medium presumed to be the speech of the social medium platform?

An affirmative answer contradicts 47 U.S. Code § 230 – Protection for private blocking and screening of offensive material.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Is all the content not removed by a social medium platform the speech of the social medium platform?

Or is all the content not removed by a social medium presumed to be the speech of the social medium platform?

No, it’s not. And nobody here opposing your argument is claiming that it is. The choice to remove or not remove is the speech of the social media platform. And it’s protected.

Now here are a couple questions for you:

If the Internet is a public forum and private companies are not allowed to abridge speech, why does Section 230, a law that protects private companies that abridge speech, even exist? And why do the authors of Section 230 state (within the last two years, in fact) that it is being used exactly as they intended it to be used?

In what way does a social media site differ from any other site that allows user content, like a message board, such that Twitter is a state actor and the message board site isn’t?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

Is all the content not removed by a social medium platform the speech of the social medium platform?

You asked the same question twice, BTW.

And whether the law or the lay person considers that speech to have come from the social media platform is an irrelevant red herring of an argument for two (actually different) reasons:

  1. Even if people don’t think offensive third-party speech comes from the platform’s owners/operators, they may end up associating offensive speech with the platform in an “oh, they must be okay with this shit” way.
  2. The platform still has a right, regardless of whether people associate the platform with that offensive speech, to determine whether than speech is welcome on that platform.

The government can’t make Twitter host certain kinds of speech that Twitter doesn’t want to host. To argue otherwise is to argue that the government should make Twitter host racial slurs, anti-queer propaganda, and other hateful speech. And if you argue that point, you must also logically argue that any interactive web service that opens its doors to the public must do the same no matter what. Your logic cannot…er, logically apply only to Twitter; it must apply to the rest of the Internet as well⁠—even if it’s a service you own and operate.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re:

Here are two questions for a dumb white racist […]

Who are you referring to?

[…] that wants to abridge freedom of expression in the vast state-supported state-designated public forum that is the Internet.

No one wants to do that. Twitter, Facebook, Google, and YouTube are not the internet, and you do not need any of them to access the internet.

Is all the content not removed by a social medium platform the speech of the social medium platform?

Or is all the content not removed by a social medium presumed to be the speech of the social medium platform?

There is no real difference between the two questions, and that issue is a red herring. The answer is obviously “no”, but that has nothing to do with this. The issue is that the decision whether or not to publish or remove the content is the speech of the social media platform, not whether or not the content itself is the speech of the social media platform.

An affirmative answer contradicts 47 U.S. Code § 230 – Protection for private blocking and screening of offensive material.

It actually wouldn’t because §230 only states what interactive comported service providers and users cannot be held liable for as a speaker or publisher and that they cannot be held liable for good faith attempts to restrict good faith attempts to moderate content they or users find objectionable or to provide users the means to do so themselves. It doesn’t say whose speech it is per se.

Stanley L. Cohen says:

Marketplace of ideas

Sorry unbridled “editorial discretion” does not permit social media platforms to serve as a public forum fulfilling a quasi-public function [Pruneyard Shopping Ctr. v. Robins, 447 U.S. 74 (1980)] while reaping billions of dollars from those who hide behind Citizens United and yet claim they are beyond the reach of First Amendment protection for those who choose to partake in the marketplace of ideas by speech or listening, writing or reading . See https://www.counterpunch.org/2022/09/16/twitter-platform-of-exchange-vehicle-of-duplicity/

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

unbridled “editorial discretion” does not permit social media platforms to serve as a public forum fulfilling a quasi-public function

And if social media services were a public forum, you might have a point. But opening its doors to the public does not a public forum make (SCOTUS in Manhattan Community Access Corp. v. Halleck, the Ninth Circuit in Prager University v. Google LLC [which cited Halleck], and the Eleventh Circuit in NetChoice v. Attorney General, State of Florida [which also cited Halleck]).

You got any better arguments⁠—maybe ones that don’t rely on you imagining the law or the Supreme Court as having said something it hasn’t?

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re:

Sorry unbridled “editorial discretion” does not permit social media platforms to serve as a public forum fulfilling a quasi-public function […]

Social media platforms don’t do that, so this is irrelevant.

[…] while reaping billions of dollars from those who hide behind Citizens United […]

Irrelevant.

[…] and yet claim they are beyond the reach of First Amendment protection for those who choose to partake in the marketplace of ideas by speech or listening, writing or reading.

The 1A only restricts state actors, which privately owned social media sites are not.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Wow, the stupidity!

The entire thought of public private or private public comes from one stupid self righteous ruling! A bad ruling that is absolutely wrong.

Nothing comes fromCA in law that isn’t some how fucked up. Period. Sorry to the people that live there, and sorry for them

This is the rate that can find cancer causes In Anything and everything. I mean, this TREE is know to the state of Cancerphobia to cause cancer.
Any law Tor ruling that stems from there should be taken with a boatload of salt.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

I was going to quit for the evening --

Then the white racist/elitist dummy showed his true disgusting vile racial supremacist nature.

Three things.
1. [citation needed]
2. Justice Thomas forgets that if the Founding Fathers’ views still actually ruled this country (like he thinks they should), he’d be considerd a piece of property to buy and sell under the laws of their time, so I don’t really give a fuck what he thinks.
3. Until SCOTUS puts that shit in writing as part of a ruling that becomes binding legal precedent across the entire country, what those judges may believe isn’t binding legal precedent.

In other words, the uppity n*** should shut up and heed the sage words of a depraved white racist/elitist dummy like Stephen T. Stone.

I can help my Counsel persuade Kavanaugh.

You must first reach the Supreme Court. They said “fuck off” in legalese when you last tried to get there.

In the dreams of the depraved white racist/elitist dummy. SCOTUS appreciated the effort but considered the petition not yet ripe for review.

In the next round, the case will be adjudicated by a three-judge district court panel, and whatever the result, the litigation will go directly to SCOTUS by right of appeal and not by a discretionary grant of cert.

Of course, the white racist/elitist dummy does not have a clue about the procedures of the US federal judiciary.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

In other words, the uppity n*** should shut up

Yeah, I didn’t say that. My point was that Clarence Thomas is a so-called Originalist, who thinks the Constitution should be interpreted according to the mindset and the views of the Founding Fathers⁠—views that, were they truly upheld in the way Thomas apparently believes they should be, would transform Thomas, a (semi-)respected person sitting on the highest court in the land, into a piece of chattel property to be bought, sold, traded, and discarded by rich land-owning white men. I don’t give a shit what he thinks because his Originalist views would essentially have the law stand still, unable to evolve for modern times, because he thinks a bunch of centuries-dead slaveowners deserve the final word on American law for all time. Fuck that noise.

SCOTUS appreciated the effort but considered the petition not yet ripe for review.

Being denied cert says nothing about how SCOTUS feels about your case. But if you’ve had ex parte communications with the Justices about their feelings in re: your case, however, that might be of some interest to the parties you’re suing. I’m sure they’d love to know about biases from the Justices that could lead to an unbalanced and unfair decision against those parties.

the case will be adjudicated by a three-judge district court panel, and whatever the result, the litigation will go directly to SCOTUS by right of appeal

Sure it will~.

When you lose (or when a different ruling makes your lawsuit moot), will you stop posting here, or will you be even more obnoxious about the idea that people are racist against you because you’re a blithering idiot who doesn’t know where he isn’t welcome? (Something tells me you have trouble taking “no” for an answer in other aspects of your life…)

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: The Comment Jester Continues His Continuous Distribution of Nonsense by Message Common Carriage

It is amusing to a legal professional when a legal nitwit uses a legal phrase with no comprehension of the meaning.

Malicious intent refers to the intent, without just cause or reason, to commit a wrongful act that will result in harm to another. It is the intent to harm or do some evil purpose.

Suing a racist/elitist social medium platform for clear violation of federal and state law is hardly a wrongful act. Such a lawsuit is an effort to support the law.

I have more than just cause to hate, to despise, and to loathe such a depraved and evil social medium platform. Every one should, and only a despicable apologist for racism and for discrimination does not.

In the case of Anonymous Clown, complete technological ignorance and idiocy plays an important role in his support of obvious racism and of obvious discrimination.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Suing a racist/elitist social medium platform for clear violation of federal and state law is hardly a wrongful act.

Suing a social media platform to force your way back onto that platform even after it told you to fuck off, on the other hand…

I have more than just cause to hate, to despise, and to loathe such a depraved and evil social medium platform.

Everyone hates Twitter. Still doesn’t mean you can force your speech onto it.

(lmao, you can’t make Twitter host your speech, get fucked)

Yu-Gi-Doge says:

So with all of this bs I have 2 questions:

  1. What constitutes a social media website? Is it Facebook, Twitter, YouTube comments, some oped blog with a comment section? I get there is a size requirement but I don’t see how this couldn’t be expanded to any site any lawyer would want to sue.
  2. Doesn’t this basically get rid of channel and user recommendations on sites like YouTube and twitter?

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