The 5th Circuit Reinstates Texas’ Obviously Unconstitutional Social Media Law Effective Immediately

from the what-a-clusterfuck dept

Florida and Texas both passed blatantly unconstitutional laws limiting the ability of social media websites to moderate. Lawsuits were filed challenging both laws. In both cases, the district courts correctly blocked the laws from going into effect, noting that it was obviously a 1st Amendment violation to tell websites how they could and could not moderate. Both states appealed. A few weeks back there was a hearing in the 11th Circuit over the Florida law, where it became quite clear that the judges seemed to grasp the issues, and had lots of really tough questions for Florida’s lawyers. However, they have not issued an actual ruling yet.

On Monday of this week, the notoriously bad about everything 5th Circuit heard Texas’s appeal on its law, and the hearing went sideways from the very beginning, with one of the judges even trying to argue that Twitter wasn’t a website. That was only the tip of the iceberg of misunderstanding the three judge panel presented, confusing a number of issues around free speech, common carriers, private property and more. Based on the hearing, it seemed likely that the court was going to make a huge mess of things, but even then, it would be normal to take a few months to think about it, and maybe (hopefully?) reread the briefings. Also, standard practice would be to release a ruling where there would be a nominal period in which to file some sort of appeal. Instead, late Wednesday, the court just reinstated the law with no explanation at all.

An opinion is likely to follow at some point, but the whole setup of everything is bizarre and not very clear at all. The only bit of info provided is that the panel was not unanimous, suggesting that Judge Southwick, who seemed to have a better grasp of the matter than his two colleagues, probably went the other way.

So… what does this mean? Well, Texas is now a mess for any social media company. Operating in Texas and daring to do something as basic as stopping harassment and abuse on your platform now opens you up to significant litigation and potential fines. It strips editorial discretion, the right to cultivate your own community, and much much more that is fundamentally necessary to running a website with 3rd party content. I’ll have a second post later today exploring the many, many ways in which this law is effectively impossible to comply with.

I am positive that every decently sized social media company had to talk to its lawyers Wednesday evening and assess whether or not it makes sense to block access to everyone in Texas (even though some of the language in the bill suggests that it requires companies to operate in Texas). Others may decide to open the floodgates of hate, harassment, and abuse and say “well, this is what you required.” And it still won’t result in them not getting sued.

For what it’s worth, Trump’s own website, Truth Social, has moderation practices that clearly run afoul of this law, and he’s only protected from it to the extent that it still has less than 50 million monthly users.

It would be nice if the 11th Circuit came out with their ruling going the opposite way, and did so in a clear and reasoned fashion, setting up a circuit split that the Supreme Court could review. But that seems unlikely. I’ve been told that the judges on the 11th Circuit panel are famous for their excessively slow writing of opinions. The tech companies could seek an en banc review from the entire 5th Circuit, though much of the 5th Circuit is ridiculous and I’m not convinced it would help at all. There could be an attempt to appeal immediately to the Supreme Court’s shadow docket, but that’s also fundamentally an unknown arena right now.

So, in summary, Texas is fucked. Social media in Texas is now a risky proposition. And whether or not the companies continue to operate in Texas, the floodgates have been opened for ridiculous lawsuits. If you thought that Texas lawsuits over patent trolls created an entire industry unto itself, you haven’t seen anything yet.

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Comments on “The 5th Circuit Reinstates Texas’ Obviously Unconstitutional Social Media Law Effective Immediately”

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That One Guy (profile) says:

'Cesspits for all' or 'no social media for texas'

Well it looks like any social media platform above a certain size and operating in texas that’s not smart enough to just cut off service to the state will be prohibited from moderating conservative values such as checks notes pro-terrorism content, holocaust denial and anti-vaxx messages because several circuit court judges either don’t understand the first amendment or just hate it.

I’m sure that’ll work out great.

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PaulT (profile) says:

“with one of the judges even trying to argue that Twitter wasn’t a website”

Wow. I knew that you wouldn’t be exaggerating, and clicked on the story hoping to see that you were using some colourful euphemism, yet…

“Your clients are internet providers,” Judge Edith Jones told the lawyer for the plaintiffs, NetChoice and the Computer and Communications Industry Association. “They are not websites.”

How the fuck can someone argue that accessing a service that you can use by going to http://www.twitter.com is not a website, yet the service that’s completely inaccessible without paying someone else for internet access is an internet service provider?

Of course Texas is screwed here, the judges presiding on tech can’t tell the analogous difference between a freeway, a car and parking space yet are trying to dictate how engines are built.

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Koby (profile) says:

Nice Move Elon

Permitting all legal political speech sure seems like good policy today! Remember, there’s no first amendment defense against discrimination.

Instead, late Wednesday, the court just reinstated the law with no explanation at all.

To get a preliminary injunction, a litigant usually needs to demonstrate that some kind of adversity will occur unless the law is put on hold. In this situation, it’s the social media platforms causing the damage unless the law can proceed.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re:

“Remember, there’s no first amendment defense against discrimination.”

So, hopefully the scum of the Earth that you support will be facing consequences when they do so on the platform that no longer protects them from going too far? Silver linings, I suppose, though I suspect there will be far less people voluntarily using a site where you people are allowed to abuse people freely

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Remember, there’s no first amendment defense against discrimination.

Because technically, it’s part of the First Amendment. Under the right to associate whoever the fuck we want. And most of us, foreigners included, would rather prefer we not associate with Nazis, COVID Deniers, and terrorists.

But you seem to have a problem with the First Amendment.

So, Koby, are the ones being “discriminated” against Nazis, COVID Deniers, and terrorists? As well as Rusian-backed insurrectionists?

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re:

Remember, there’s no first amendment defense against discrimination.

Yes, there is. The only exception is with regards to business transactions involving certain protected classes, and neither political affiliation nor viewpoint qualify as protected classes. There is absolutely a First Amendment right to discriminate based upon viewpoint or political affiliation.

In this situation, it’s the social media platforms causing the damage unless the law can proceed.

That’s not how it works. The adversity in this situation is that the law requires certain affirmative steps on the part of the plaintiffs and infringes on the plaintiffs’ 1A rights.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Step 1 Down

Step 1 down.

Now onto step 2. Get section 230 declared unconstitutional, government cant use state power to incentivize private actors to violate the rights of others.

Step 3, incorporate political affiliation into our red states’ civil rights codes.

Step 4. Extradite Mike and his buddies to our red states to face trial in our state courts and a nickel to a dime in our state prisons for conspiracy to violate of our civil rights codes.

We are coming for you mike!

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

I have a life you pathetic fuck!

No excuses, shitbird. You replied to other comments on that article yesterday (you forget that you have a comment history and we can all view comments in chronology), but you somehow couldn’t bring yourself to answer One Simple Question.

If you’re going to troll this site, don’t say you have a life. We both know that isn’t true.

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Naughty Autie says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Given how often you tell others to suck dicks in one way or another regardless of whether or not that’s something they’re into, I can only presume you’re obsessed with the idea because it’s something that you would clearly love to do if you could only get up the courage. TL;DR: you’re projecting.

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Naughty Autie says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Trust me he is into it.

Nice of you to back up my theory with yet another badly punctuated comment. I was talking to you, and you answered by talking about yourself in the third person (from what I can make out). Backs up others’ impression of you as a spoilt, petulant child.

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Naughty Autie says:

Re:

Extradition only applies in criminal cases, shit for brains. You might have some chance if you find out Mike’s address, break in one night, and he shoots you, but the odds are better that he’ll be let go on the basis of self-defence and you’ll be charged with breaking and entering and criminal trespass. How do you like them apples?

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Oh You Don't Get It

Oh you don’t get the long term plan you little shit.

We in the red states will incorporate political affiliation into our state’s civil rights codes. When that happens Mike’s entire livelihood will be illegal in every red state. Conspiracy to violate civil rights is a crime.

We will extradite mike and anyone like Mike who makes a living conspiring on how to violate our rights.

The only reason we cant yet do this is section 230. Federal immunity trumps state civil rights code. This civil action law further chips away at section 230. As we chip away at it form the civil side eventually we can move to the criminal side.

This isn’t a threat its a warning. Mike needs to find a new line of work because West Texas prisons suck.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

The only reason we cant yet do this is section 230.

Dude, Section 230 doesn’t govern anti-discrimination laws. Your whole forced association diatribe and fantasies about jailing and raping me (possibly not even in that order) doesn’t make nearly the impact you think it does when the logical basis for that diatribe is flimsier than a wet sheet of notebook paper.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 You Are and Idiot

“47/230/e/(3)

(3)State law

Nothing in this section shall be construed to prevent any State from enforcing any State law that is consistent with this section. No cause of action may be brought and no liability may be imposed under any State or local law that is inconsistent with this section.”

This covers all state civil rights code.

This was the issue in Candice Owens suit with AirBNB when they denied service. AirBNB claimed they had section 230 immunity and the court said no AirBNB is not an interactive computer service so civil rights code applies and the case moves forward.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

It means you are wrong again you dipshit.

Explain how I’m wrong when (1) your own post seems to indicate that Section 230 doesn’t override anti-discrimination laws, (2) I never said 230 overrides anti-discrimination laws, and (3) you’ve offered nothing that says California state law can explicitly override Twitter’s First Amendment–protected moderation choices to force an association between a given user and Twitter.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Yes it does

Okay but it actually doesn’t though. Section 230 is about granting liability protections to interactive web services over third-party speech (and the moderation thereof). But Section 230 doesn’t protect those services if they decide not to let Black people use said services because of their race.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Again: Section 230 isn’t about anti-discrimination practices, but about moderation and legal liability for third-party speech. 230 can’t and won’t protect a website⁠—even one based in California⁠—from a charge of racial discrimination if the charge can be proven.

how are you so fucking bad at this

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

“Again: Section 230 isn’t about anti-discrimination practices, but about moderation and legal liability for third-party speech. 230 can’t and won’t protect a website⁠—even one based in California⁠—from a charge of racial discrimination if the charge can be proven.”

You can bring a federal case you cannot bring a state case. State laws are trumped by section 230 says so right in the text you fucking moron.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

State laws are trumped by section 230

Again: Section 230 doesn’t preëmpt anti-discrimination laws. If someone can prove Twitter or Facebook discriminated against Black users in some way, 230 not only won’t protect that service, 230 can’t protect that service because Section 230 is not about whether a company can legally discriminate against protected classes of people, but about immunity from legal liability for third-party speech.

how are you this fucking stupid, holy shit

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Actually, it only exempts federal criminal law and IP law (and a few other narrow categories). It doesn’t exempt preexisting federal civil law except where otherwise specified.

More importantly, the conduct you’re accusing Mike of (conspiracy to discriminate) is not that of Mike acting as either a provider or user of an interactive computer service, so §230 doesn’t immunize that conduct.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

We in the red states will incorporate political affiliation into our state’s civil rights codes.

Political affiliation is not an immutable characteristic, so that would unlawfully violate the freedom of association.

When that happens Mike’s entire livelihood will be illegal in every red state. Conspiracy to violate civil rights is a crime.

  1. No, it’s a civil law.
  2. You can’t conspire to violate a law before it exists.
  3. Mike’s livelihood doesn’t involve conspiring to discriminate against people based on political affiliation.

We will extradite mike and anyone like Mike who makes a living conspiring on how to violate our rights.

You cannot extradite someone to face charges of discrimination because discrimination (and, thus, conspiracy, as conspiracy to commit an illegal or unlawful act is never harsher than the underlying wrongdoing) is a violation of civil law, not criminal law. Additionally, extradition is typically only sought in extreme cases. Can you name even a single case where someone was extradited to another state for violating that state’s anti-discrimination laws or conspiring to do so?

Also, again, Mike doesn’t do that.

The only reason we cant yet do this is section 230.

§230 doesn’t protect the platform’s conduct outside of moderation of its own platform; conspiracy to discriminate doesn’t really fit that.

Federal immunity trumps state civil rights code.

It also trumps every other state law.

This civil action law further chips away at section 230.

No, it violates it. The only way to “chip away at section 230” is through federal legislation.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Step 3, incorporate political affiliation into our red states’ civil rights codes.

Does that mean Social media being free to not associate with people because of their politics, or does that mean there is only one party that people can associate with?

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re:

It means if you are a business open to the public you cannot discriminate based on political affiliation. Cant refuse service in California because someone is a communist.

Some states have these laws. They come right out of the red scare. Mike’s business model is fundamentally illegal. He relies on a federal immunity to break the law in his own home state.

Just because you have federal immunity doesn’t make it any less illegal. Don’t confuse immunity with legality. The diplomate who rapes children still committed an illegal act.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

It means if you are a business open to the public you cannot discriminate based on political affiliation.

Twitter would likely ding a user for posting a sentence such as “queer people should be purged from society”. Would that be “discriminat[ion] based on political affiliation” if a conservative user is more likely to post that sentence than a liberal user?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

It means if you are a business open to the public you cannot discriminate based on political affiliation.

I have yet, in 52 years, to go to a business where I discuss my political affiliation, much less there being a question of whether or not I get served.

Where exactly is all of this happening, and why are you people hell-bent on making political affiliation front and center in discussions? Don’t you have anything else to talk about?

There’s certainly a pattern of your posts that is condescending, petty, and frankly batshit crazy. Perhaps you should consider those things if you’re being ignored instead of thinking it’s a politics thing.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Where exactly is all of this happening, and why are you people hell-bent on making political affiliation front and center in discussions? Don’t you have anything else to talk about?

It’s because they can’t defend being an asshole on it’s own merits and they’re certainly not going to stop acting like that so they’ve decided to pretend that being one is a ‘political’ position and then whine about the ‘political persecution’ any time someone calls them out for being an abusive jackass.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

It means if you are a business open to the public you cannot discriminate based on political affiliation.

Please point to where Mike has been discriminating against people based on their political affiliation?

I mean if he is, it should be easy for you to prove.

Does that mean every time Fox News removes my anti-republican comments from their news website that the Fox execs will go to jail?

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Freedom of Association and Freedom of Speech

Freedom of association and freedom of speech when it comes to public businesses and places one go so far as to when one would reasonably consider such speech or such association as an endorsement.

The courts have ruled on this time and time again. Someone speech or presence in a public business would not be seen by a reasonable person as an endorsement and is therefore not the speech of the owner of the business.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Freedom of association and freedom of speech when it comes to public businesses and places on[ly] go so far as to when one would reasonably consider such speech or such association as an endorsement.

If anything, you’re making the case for Twitter moderation by saying Twitter has the right to moderate speech someone might reasonably consider Twitter to be endorsing were that speech allowed to stay up.

how are you so fucking bad at this, kid

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 No Reasonble Person

No reasonable person would. This is already asked and answered by the courts. Stephan you little sissy slut. You post demands of others early on a Saturday morning and expect them to respond.

YOU ARE NOT A REASONBLE PERSON!

You are fucking insane!

You need to ask yourself why you think its “reasonable” but the courts have time and time again said its not.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

I’m not like you. People in the center or two the right get their news from a wide verity of sources. I like seeing your pathetic arguments. It lets me hone mine.

There has been an oft repeated study on this. The right gets their news 60/40 right left. The center gets theirs 40/60 right left. The left gets theirs 5/95 right left.

Not only is this an echo-chamber it also causes this project where those on the left think that those on the right or center consume news as biased as they do.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

I like seeing your pathetic arguments. It lets me hone mine.

I guess I still don’t understand how honing your skills against pathetic arguments is useful, unless you feel you need practice.

Which begs the question as to what you’re practicing your argument skills for? That seems like a waste of time, unless that’s your primary job role.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

I like seeing your pathetic arguments. It lets me hone mine.

I guess I still don’t understand how honing your skills against pathetic arguments is useful, unless you feel you need practice.

You misunderstand. He’s honing his pathetic arguments. I’m not sure why. They seem adequately pathetic as-is.

ECA (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 Show your article

Show where you got those numbers.
And I will show you the Far right gets there Opinions from only a certain group. That group TELLS them what to to do, and WHOM to BLAME, but Never a solution.

The Middle seems to be Shutting off the TV, and Avoiding most of the news sections, for Choices of their OWN.

The LEft? Dont ask. They seem to have lost their way.

PS. Just for Giggle, why dont you go back in History, nad see WHO has been in office the longest, repub or demo, for the last 50 years. Then Understand another think. HOW many of them have been in Gov. Offices for 20-40 years, and still IN THE SYSTEM.
Do you know WHy the system Limits the amount of TIME Any of these folks can be in OFFICE? But TO MANY have been there for so long, They should ALL retire.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

This is already asked and answered by the courts.

And the answer is that moderation that favors or disfavors certain viewpoints on a privately-owned website open to the public is protected by the 1A right to freedom of association and free speech in addition to §230(c)(1), and §230(c)(2)(A).

You post demands of others early on a Saturday morning and expect them to respond.

Eventually, yes. Not necessarily right away. No one cares if you respond on a Saturday or a Monday or whenever. If you choose not to post anything on weekends, that’s your prerogative. Similarly, it’s Stephen’s prerogative to decide to post his “demands” on a Saturday.

That said, lots of people have more time—not less—to write posts on the weekends. There is no reason to expect that it would be most likely unreasonable for some arbitrary person to post on weekends. You have given no explanation for why it’s unreasonable in general.

You need to ask yourself why you think its “reasonable” but the courts have time and time again said its not.

[citation needed]

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re:

[…] government cant use state power to incentivize private actors to violate the rights of others.

Which §230 doesn’t do, so this will fail.

Step 3, incorporate political affiliation into our red states’ civil rights codes.

Civil rights regarding discrimination by private parties are for immutable characteristics and religion only. Anything else violates the 1A freedom of association.

Step 4. Extradite Mike and his buddies to our red states to face trial in our state courts and a nickel to a dime in our state prisons for conspiracy to violate of our civil rights codes.

Since you can’t conspire to violate civil rights codes that either don’t actually exist yet or didn’t cover the alleged act being allegedly conspired to do at the time of the conspiracy, this fails right out the gate.

Ehud Gavron (profile) says:

Re: Boiling Frogs

That frog thing is a myth, but as a metaphor it’s perfectly apt. I’ll try to keep it apolitical.
TL;DR – it’s too late and this trainwreck is heading down the cliff.

ONE GROUP wants to eliminate the rights of women and force them to be breeding animals. The argument of “every life counts” seems to start with a sex act and END upon childbirth. After that anything from imprisonment, expulsion, death penalties and war ARE ALL JUST FINE because, well, it’s already been born.

SO this is A-OK but if those other people in the other places want women to wear a body-covering, “we” decry that, call it names, and urge THEIR women to buck THEIR laws in THEIR countries.

ONE GROUP wants to eliminate rights of anyone other than themselves. They would like to be the moat-dragon of Big Content, earn obscene amounts of money for things they did NOT create, provided NO creator incentive, and virtually (“literally”) screwed the real creators out of the profit.

SO this is A-OK if you like the group, but otherwise is anathematic to core values we supposedly espouse (e.g 1AM.)

The end result is a gradual erosion of the rights of the “rest of us”, which I would say is group three:
ONE GROUP just wants to be left alone. We don’t harm children. We don’t tell others what to do with their bodies or clothing. We respect that if someone wants to setup a website (sorry, 5th Cir. http[s]://[www.]twitter.com IS a website. I guess it will take a jury (“trier of fact”) to figure that one out because our circuit court and supreme court judges are woefully out of touch and pretty darn stupid.

That’s A-OK by me, because I do think that my rights should extend just until they conflict with your rights, and vice-versa.

The frog-boiling thing is a myth, but it is an excellent metaphor for what happens when we let the long-game scammers play that long game for a long time. In the end, they “win.” By the time we see the “win” and recognize it… it is too late.

To use a cruder analogy, this is like being part of a traffic stop, a few words exchange, and being handcuffed in the back of a police vehicle enroute to jail, then a hearing, then a trial (maybe) then prison. One can’t get out of the handcuffs OR the patrol car… without making the punishment worse. The time to have fought was when “they” passed laws allowing “them” to ignore your rights.

Civil rights? Human rights? Free speech? Sure sounds good on paper. “Your ideas are intriguing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlMwc1c0HRQ&ab_channel=NickKing

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

“ONE GROUP wants to eliminate the rights of women and force them to be breeding animals.”

Says the person who cares nothing for any human being who is still in the womb. Unique DNA sequence means the baby is NOT “part of the woman’s body” but is simply living and growing there until he or she can survive outside it. So it’s not just about her. You also show absolutely no concern for the many, many women who are forced into getting abortions by their families or SO’s.

And many of us DO care about our kids well after birth. Quit generalizing, because doing so shows your ignorance, that you only see people as large monolithic groups instead of individuals, and that you’re fine with people generalizing against you and your beliefs.

Only the enforcement of your point of view matters to you. Doing the very thing you accuse those you disagree with of doing. Want to prove otherwise? Then start qualifying your statements and take back every generalization you have ever made. Because generalizations are always wrong, and people are not faceless collections of blobs. You want your view taken seriously, then drop the sweeping statements and treat those who think differently than you do the way you want you and your beliefs to be treated. Hate will turn on you eventually and destroy you, so don’t give in to it.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Bloody hell do you people ever get new arguments?

‘It’s got different DNA!’ So what. The person passing by me on the sidewalk has different DNA than me, that wouldn’t mean if I needed a blood transfusion and they were the only match I’d get to conscript their body to provide the needed blood, even if it cost me my life were they to refuse.

‘Women are forced into getting abortions!’ Alright, if that happens at a rate that’s more than a statistical anomaly that’s a problem I’d like to see addressed, but just out of curiosity how concerned are you about the women who are forced into not getting an abortion by say laws making it illegal and bounties put on those that get/provide one? Is that something you are concerned about or does it only work one way with you?

Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:

And many of us DO care about our kids well after birth. Quit generalizing, because doing so shows your ignorance, that you only see people as large monolithic groups instead of individuals, and that you’re fine with people generalizing against you and your beliefs.

The problem is that you don’t care about every kid born of a woman who couldn’t have an abortion, but you damn well care that she must carry it to term.

You know the best way to avoid unwanted pregnancies, all men should get a vasectomy. If women can’t have full bodily autonomy, then men shouldn’t either.

Oh, just a little reminder – every sperm and every egg has their own unique DNA, they are just living in a body until they can survive outside but I don’t hear you complain about them being literally flushed down the toilet.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Says the person who cares nothing for any human being who is still in the womb.

Not nothing; just less than the woman with the womb carrying the fetus or zygote or whatever.

Unique DNA sequence means the baby is NOT “part of the woman’s body” […]

So that means that someone with chimerism is two or more different people? That a donated kidney is not part of the recipient’s body? That a sperm cell or egg cell (even one that is unfertilized) is not part of the person’s body? That identical twins are part of the same body?

[…] but is simply living and growing there until he or she can survive outside it.

If he or she will ever be able to survive outside of it, which is often not the case. Furthermore, until the fetus does become capable of surviving outside the woman’s body, it can still be considered part of it.

So it’s not just about her.

Primarily, it is about her.

You also show absolutely no concern for the many, many women who are forced into getting abortions by their families or SO’s.

That’s a separate issue. Banning abortion is not the solution to that; ensuring proper safeguards and procedures so that all elective abortions are fully consensual will help deal with that. And banning abortion doesn’t suddenly make that pressure go away.

And many of us DO care about our kids well after birth.

Your kids, anyways. But that’s not even the point. This is about the many who don’t. If you are not among them, great! That particular criticism isn’t about you, then.

Only the enforcement of your point of view matters to you.

[citation needed]

Cattress (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

It is literally impossible to “care” for the unborn in any manner that isn’t directly to the pregnant person. The fetus doesn’t matter until she declares it does, and even then her life will still be prioritized in an medical emergency.
For every step towards giving a fetus rights to person-hood, you effectively strip the rights pregnant women, actual persons. There is already a pervasive problem of society collectively trying to own pregnant bodies. From people who touch pregnant bellies without invitation or permission, to the tsks and lectures over drinking coffee, smoking, heavy lifting, or having a glass of wine. When the fetus has rights, legislation that “protects” the fetus will follow. There is already a disturbing amount of pregnancy surveillance, like surreptitiously testing lab samples for drug use, in particular for Medicaid patients. And in cases of miscarriage, or fetal demise, there are already legislators chomping at the bit to make forensic investigation into whether the loss was caused intentionally or not the law. Do you understand the sweeping implications for every female in America, because I don’t think you have the faintest clue.
I also don’t think any of the so-called pro-lifers have a clue how granting rights to the unborn will devastate anyone seeking infertility treatment, or family building plan. Of course we hear cavalier and ignorant suggestions that adoption solves all these problems, like babies are some kind of commodity that can be bought, sold, or traded based on market forced of supply & demand.
The entire anti-abortion movement stems from white males fearing the inevitable slip of their iron grip on social order and power. If you think this is about saving babies, you have been duped and used. Your emotions and sensitivity activated by misleading statistics, inaccurate information, grossly edited images from scientific study. Your argument that freedom of choice results some how in loss of freedom of choice because there is risk of coercion, doesn’t even make logical sense. And my god, if you think coerced abortion so horrible (and any coerced decision is absolutely wrong and equally awful) then you need to know how forced birth works out for mother and child. The turn away study is a good start, but pretty mild. Look at the legacy of orphanages, homes for unwed mothers. There is a lot of brutal abuse, death, suffering. Babies left in the sun to die, children left with so little human interaction and without all the necessary stimulation that they rock themselves and beat their heads on the sides of their cribs, children sexuality and violently physically abused, buried in unmarked graves to be forgotten. Women forced to place babies for adoption traumatized for decades. I don’t know how anyone sees the reality of real children actually suffering physically, emotionally, spiritually in reality, pain that is not fabricated or imagined, children with sentience and actual capability of the human experience, is some how a preferable way to be (because that’s what life is like when abortion is not legal, no need to imagine, we know).

James Burkhardt (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Your asumption that this will not impact social media outside Texas readily shows an ignorance of the willingness of bad faith actors to sue over behavior Texas has no jurisdiction over. It also shows an ignorance of the various laws this ruling would impact in the 5th circut – conflating an ISP and a website will impact just about every regulation for the internet.

The idea the entire internet is over is hyperbolic, but over the next decade this ruling will overturn most assumptions in the legal arena for internet based businesses.

Tanner Andrews (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 What Happens in Texas

What happens in Texas may not stay there. The US 5th Circuit seems to follow the rule of Zippo [Mfg Co v. Zippo Dot Com], 952 F.Supp.
1119 (W.D. Pa. 1997). See Mink v. AAAA Dev, 190 F.3d 333.

Actually, I think most everyone follows that now. The Zippo sliding scale generally means that if a site is interactive and has subscribers in a particular state, that is enough to meet the minimum contacts of International Shoe.

Twitter and other web sites most likely should use some sort of IP-based blocking and perhaps also amend their terms of service to expressly bar use from Texas.

(preview still broken, in that it does nothing, on linux using firefox 78.4.0 esr, 64-bit, no javascript. used to work on old site with same web browser.)

Naughty Autie says:

Social media in Texas is now a risky proposition.

The result of which is likely to be certain ‘non-websites’ being blocked to people whose IP addresses show them as being in Texas. When judges are well paid (through lobbying) to not know that a social media platform on the Web is absolutely a website, it’s the people on their state who suffer. I wonder if Judge Southwick has a social media account and that’s why his vote was so sensible.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Already is in California

Already is in California. Mike gets away with breaking California law because he has federal immunity. Now I doubt Cali will ever enforce its civil rights code fairly but I don’t really want them too. I don’t trust California’s ability to make the modern colonialists like Mike suffer the way they need to. I’d much rather see Mike spend 10 years getting fucking in the ass in a Texas prison.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Thanks for the word salad, but that doesn’t give any insight as to whether or not you’re going to make ‘asshole’ a protected class in red states or not.

I also think this could be a teachable moment for you…suggesting that there’s a plot where MIke’s got federal immunity while suggesting that he should be sent to prison and raped because of something you perceived he did/does is the kind of thing they used to send you to a psychiatric ward for.

I would suggest that you stop normalizing this ridiculous nonsense. Because absolutely no one will take you seriously when this is what comes out of your head.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

I don’t perceive anything.

I don’t perceive anything Mikes admitted business is to figure our the best way to deny others their freedom of speech specifically based on political affiliation which is illegal in California. Mike gets away with this, as does all social media because section 230 immunizes him from any state law inconsistent to section 230. Because section 230 is overly broad with “otherwise objectionable” state civil rights code is effectively unenforceable.

But once section 230 is gone the flood gates open and we in the red states get to come after Mike and his ilk and we will.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

I don’t perceive anything Mikes admitted business is to figure our the best way to deny others their freedom of speech specifically based on political affiliation which is illegal in California.

Mike has never claimed that Gab etc cannot exists, or that Alex Jones cannot have his own website and show, but rather that people are not entitled to force their way onto a platform, or into a conversation where they are not welcome.

Texas has just said that people like you can abrogate other peoples freedom of speech by making social media so toxic that people will not want to use it.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

You are sealioning

I’m not. Sealioning is the notion that I’ll never be satisfied with any argument you present. But if you can present a cogent, coherent, on-point argument with actual citations of fact that I can’t refute, I’ll gladly concede the argument. I’ve done so before on this site, I’ll do so again.

That you keep whining about people asking for proof of the things you claim as fact instead of offering the proof being asked for doesn’t reflect well on you.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9 Back To Saturday

Back to Saturday now that I’ve read it you perthitic fuck. I said that BigTech doesn’t enforce its rules on using bots to game algorithms if they politically agree with who is doing it.

You came back and demanded evidence that the algorithms are written with bias which is not what I said.

You sealion all the fucking time!

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

You came back and demanded evidence that the algorithms are written with bias which is not what I said.

Your entire argument up to that point was, essentially, what I demanded evidence for: Gmail algorithms were/are rigged by “Big Tech” to specifically target conservatives.

You’re the one who wanted to whine about rigged algorithms. I wanted proof they were rigged. Ain’t my fault if you can’t prove your argument, shitbird.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
wshuff (profile) says:

So let me see if I have this right.

Companies have a First Amendment right to donate money to Republicans and right wing organizations.

Companies do not have a First Amendment right to criticize Republican policies or support non-right wing organizations, which is derided as being “woke” and can result in sanctions from the state.

Companies have no First Amendment right to moderate their own online platforms.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re:

It’s the same position on every subject – they get to do whatever they want without consequence, those other people don’t have the right to do a damn thing if they don’t like it.

Most people grow out of that mindset before they finish puberty, but somehow permanent adolescence is an attractive quality to some voters.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Chozen’s effectively answered that by suggesting that he would make ‘asshole’ a protected class. When they say ‘political affiliation’ it’s as a scapegoat for assholishly hostile behavior and a penchant to argue about everything, especially with people who have no interest in arguing.

Frankly, I see why they do it – everything is someone else’s fault, so they blame assholism on politics, drape themselves in their flags, and pretend it’s about freedum.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Cali Code

(b) All persons within the jurisdiction of this state are free and equal, and no matter what their sex, race, color, religion, ancestry, national origin, POLITICAL BELIF OR AFFILIATION, disability, medical condition, genetic information, marital status, sexual orientation, citizenship, primary language, or immigration status are entitled to the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges, or services in all business establishments of every kind WHATSOEVER.

That whatsoever kind of destroys your favorite fallacy of specificity arguments.

Naughty Autie says:

Re: Re: Re:3

A business establishment is a physical location in which business-related activities take place. How does the law thus regulate Twitter and other web-based services in what they do online? That specific definition destroys your favourite fallacy of general arguments. Do me a favour and go in for a Darwin Award, why don’t you? Only one step to go to qualify for one.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Hunters laptop

Wasn’t banned; only links to a specific story about that laptop were temporarily banned under a policy that no longer exists in a form that would’ve applied to that story. The topic itself was fully allowed.

Wuhan Lab

Assertions that it was definitely from a lab were banned because such claims have not been demonstrated.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Chip Chip Chip

“Lol, you actually fucking think that the Supreme Court is going to reverse this decision? After the leaked draft on Roe v. Wade and everything?”

Now you are getting it!!! Chip chip chip goes section 230. As we weaken it on the civil side we also weaken it on the criminal side. Once its gone we send the Mike’s of the world to red state prisons. I hear the Huntsville Unit is such a nice place.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re:

I’m honestly glad you confirmed that you and your conservative brethren plan to send your ideological enemies to prison for no reason other than their political leanings as soon as you turn the United States into an authoritarian Christian theocracy. That level of candor is…refreshing.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: You Can Disagree All You want

You can disagree all you want. When you attempt to use your power to infringe on my rights I will fight back.

As I’ve said before silicone valley amounts to a modern technological colonialism. As small percentage of the worlds population is attempting to use market power and a technological monopoly to force their world view on everyone else. Not at all much different than what the Europeans did the the world during colonization.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

When you attempt to use your power to infringe on my rights I will fight back.

When has anyone, including the administrators of a social media service, ever blocked (or tried to block) your right to speak under any and all circumstances? Getting booted from Twitter isn’t a violation of your civil rights regardless of how much you want the world to think otherwise.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Its Always a Violatoin of Rightes

Its fundamentally a violation of rights. You say its a legal violation because there is no law against it, or if their is section 230 immunizes the platform.

I’m saying we will get rid of section 230, make it illegal, and throw Mikes ass in jail for it if he continues to do it.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Its fundamentally a violation of rights.

It isn’t.

You have no legal right to use Twitter unless you own Twitter. The same goes for literally every other interactive web service. Facebook, 4chan, Discord, any given Mastodon instance⁠—none of them have any legal, moral, or ethical obligation to let you use them. You are no more entitled to a spot on their platforms than I am.

Twitter booting someone from the Twitter platform doesn’t violate any of your civil rights unless that someone can prove the ban was handed down in a way that violates non-discrimination laws. If you want to say I’m wrong, you’ll have to prove me wrong⁠—and throwing a hissy fit about me asking for proof isn’t going to prove me wrong.

The First Amendment protects the right of Twitter to moderate speech on its platform⁠—and Twitter’s right to choose, within the limits of non-discrimination laws, with whom it will associate. Unless you can cite a case where California state law has ever prevented Twitter from moderating speech or banning users on the basis of “political affiliation”, any such argument is bullshit. Unless you can cite a law or court ruling that overrides the First Amendment’s protections for speech and association, such that said law or ruling can force (and has forced) Twitter to host speech and users it would otherwise refuse to host, any argument that the law can do those things is bullshit.

Asking for citations of fact to back up your empty arguments isn’t sealioning. Getting the citations and acting as if they don’t exist would be. If you have the citations, present them and I’ll determine for myself whether they’re bullshit or not⁠—and if they’re not, I’ll concede the argument to you. But if they’re bullshit, and you continue to press your claims despite being told they’re bullshit…well, don’t get pissy when people keep asking you to prove your claims. Your being unable to do so is your problem, not theirs.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

When you attempt to use your power to infringe on my rights I will fight back.

What about you infringing on other peoples rights by insisting that you can turn every place that they gather into a cesspit? You re not defending wights, but rather demanding that a one party state is established, and no-one can disagree with the party.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Remember: Chozen, like any other authoritarian, believes the law must protect but not bind the in-group (i.e., conservatives and anyone who agrees with them) and bind but not protect the out-group (i.e., literally everyone else).

“The law cannot protect anyone unless it binds everyone; and it cannot bind anyone unless it protects everyone.” — Frank Wilhoit

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

SOME conservatives. Like Ehud, you seem to think that people are nothing but monolithic groups that have no individual thoughts or beliefs. Your hate for the group as a whole is so strong that you refuse to acknowledge that people are, in fact, individuals and that not all subscribe to the belief set you attribute to the group.

I’m one of them. While I have certain things I believe in, I also believe no one should be discriminated against and that everyone deserves to be treated with human dignity and respect whether you agree with them or not. And yes, it IS possible to disagree with someone’s behavior and/or lifestyle and yet still treat him or her decently and respectfully.

But in your rush to judge and condemn the entire group, you fail to acknowledge and accept this. Which only says you’re fine with the same thing being done to you and those who believe as you do. So quit generalizing. Qualify your statements, adding words like “some” or “many” to indicate that you acknowledge that not all believe or act in the way you describe. Dismissing ANY group of people automatically destroys your credibility because it shows your refusal to acknowledge people are individuals and don’t always conform to what others in the group think or do.

Because no group that large ever acts uniformly. People are individuals and need to be seen and treated as such. If you want you and those you agree with to be seen and treated that way instead of being generalized against (as doing so against them invites), then do the same for others.

sumgai (profile) says:

Re: Trouble in Hooterville

*Lol, you actually fucking think that the Supreme Court is going to reverse this decision? *

Here’s as good a place as any to make my statement.

A few of us TD’ers, a very few of us, see what’s coming down the pike. And that would be, the circuits are setting up the Supreme Court to fail. Not only fail themselves, but fail the country. The UUSC going to be put in the position of backing either the Constitution and specifically 1A, or backing the Asshole Party, and doing so by cloaking it with 1A, as if that were the intention of our founders.

It was bad enough with the abortion thing, but this is the line in the sand. I’m now strongly considering writing to my Representatives and Senators, inveigling them to please impeach these three judges on the Fifth Circuit. My hope is that taking out the three rotten apples will be sufficient to teach the rest of them to straighten up and fly right. Absent proof that they have indeed “seen the light”, then the rest of them are ripe for the same treatment.

It’s the only hope we have of straightening out our judiciary. I’m certainly not in favor of going full bore, all guns out and blazing, but experience tells me that sometimes you just can’t successfully suppress a house fire with a mere garden hose, you need to bring in an honest-to-Gawd water cannon.

I urge the rest of you (those who aren’t looking at the world through a glass belly button) to consider doing the same.

armozel (profile) says:

These clowns really wanna force us to all go back to private web forums then? Good luck trying to get a court order to force yourself into such sites. We’ll just shut them down and put them on TOR or some Web3 protocol which will be hosted across many tiny countries that don’t give a single hoot what some Qanon nerd believes. Seriously, they just can’t accept that if they can’t attract an audience then they don’t have a right to one.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

social media companies are going to be treated like common carriers

Explain how can a social media company become a common carrier?

You do realize that the internet and society will still function if all social media companies were to shut down tomorrow.

And how does social media become a common carrier but not an ISP?

Without the ISP, you wouldn’t have access to anything on the internet.

With an ISP, you have access to the internet, and guess what, nobody is forcing you to use social media. You know you don’t have to have a Twitter account.

So again, please give us a single valid reason why social media should become a common carrier when social media serves no purpose in order for life to survive.

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