Appeals Court Reminds Cops They Can’t Create Their Own Exigency To Justify A Warrantless Search

from the small-Constitutional-violations-are-still-violations dept

A case involving a DUI stop that somehow morphed into the search of a passenger has earned a couple of cops a rebuke from the Third Circuit Court of Appeals and a couple of handy reminders in a precedential decision that will make it that much tougher for law enforcement officers in this circuit to get away with stuff like this in the future.

Here’s how the stop unfolded, as recounted in the Third Circuit decision [PDF]:

Around 2:00 a.m. on February 23, 2019, Philadelphia Police Officers Lance Cannon and Daniel Gonzalez were patrolling North Philadelphia’s 35th District, an area both officers described as “very violent.” They saw a two-door pickup truck roll through a stop sign and fail to signal a turn. After they pulled the truck over, Officer Cannon approached the truck on the driver’s side and Gonzalez approached on the passenger’s side. Three people were in the truck: a driver, a front seat passenger, and, in the backseat, Jamel Hurtt.

The driver and front seat passenger both rolled down their windows. As Cannon collected the license, registration, and keys from the driver, the officers smelled alcohol. The front seat passenger was heavily intoxicated and voluble, and Hurtt, from behind, attempted to calm and quiet him. When Cannon asked the intoxicated passenger for identification, Hurtt volunteered his as well. The officers asked the driver to step out for a sobriety test. He complied and left the door open as he got out of the truck. Uninvited and without apparent justification, Cannon then “physically [went] into [the truck], partially put[ting his] body into the cabin of the truck” through the open door. He eventually climbed further into the truck, placing both knees on the driver’s seat. During the subsequent suppression hearing, he explained that he did so for the purpose of “engag[ing]” with the passengers.

It’s that last bit that turned this from a routine traffic stop into a couple of rights violations. Those rights violations led to the discovery of a gun the back seat passenger had tucked in his waistband. Those criminal charges led to a suppression hearing which led to this appeal… and a reminder that traffic stops are governed by the Supreme Court’s Rodriguez decision, which limits how much unrelated stuff cops can do while addressing the matter at hand.

In this case, the matter at hand was the supposedly drunken driver. But the field sobriety test showed the driver was under the legal limit. While one officer was performing the duties related to the stop, the other officer was ordering passengers out of the car and entering the vehicle without consent. The driver (despite having a suspended license) and the drunk passenger were allowed to drive away. Hurtt, who had been patted down by Officer Cannon (the officer who decided he needed to enter the vehicle while the other officer was actually doing traffic stop stuff), was arrested.

The court reminds Officer Cannon that the Supreme Court’s ruling says officers must remain “on-mission.” If other suspicion develops during the course of this, officers can extend the investigation. What they absolutely can’t do is put themselves in danger to create a situation where further law enforcement intrusion is necessary.

Rodriguez reasoned that “‘safety precautions taken in order to facilitate’ investigation of other crimes are not justified as part of a routine traffic stop.” Therefore, an officer cannot create a safety concern while off-mission and then rely upon that concern to justify a detour from the basic mission of the traffic stop. The limitations of the Fourth Amendment simply do not tolerate intrusions stemming from a detour from a lawful inquiry that is justified only by an exigency which police themselves have created.

The court notes that the stop occurring in an alleged “high crime area” doesn’t change the constitutional equation. What changed this from a good stop to a bad stop was the officer’s decision to enter the stopped vehicle, which resulted in an unconstitutional delay because it took the other officer “off mission.”

It is uncontested that the initial “mission” of the traffic stop was the DUI investigation of the driver of the truck. While Gonzalez conducted the on-mission field sobriety test, Cannon entered the truck and kneeled on the front seat, putting himself in a very vulnerable position. Consequently, Gonzalez had to interrupt—indeed he stopped—his attempt to determine the sobriety of the driver for the purpose of ensuring Cannon’s safety. At that point, neither officer had reasonable suspicion to search Hurtt. Without reasonable suspicion, an inquiry resulting in an extension of the traffic stop is unlawful if not related to the mission (i.e., offmission).

The government argued this was a minor interruption, but the Appeals Court reiterates the findings of the Supreme Court decision: it’s not the length of the violation that matters. It’s that the violation occurred.

Moreover, as should be obvious from our discussion, we are not persuaded by the government’s argument that the Fourth Amendment intrusion resulting from Gonzalez going off-mission was permissible because the off-mission conduct was de minimis. We need only address this argument briefly as Rodriguez clearly forecloses it. In Rodriguez, the Court held that even de minimis extensions of a traffic stop for “unrelated inquiries,” such as checking on Cannon’s off-mission activity, are unlawful.

In conclusion, Hurtt’s rights were violated:

Here, Officers Cannon and Gonzalez did what Rodriguez prohibits. Officer Cannon created a safety concern while off-mission from the purpose of the original traffic stop and thereby prolonged Hurtt’s detention. Since the disputed evidence was only uncovered after the officers went off-mission, the officers wrongly extended the traffic stop and violated Hurtt’s Fourth Amendment right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures.

That reverses the trial court’s refusal to suppress the evidence. And with that evidence now gone, the conviction is vacated. Rights are rights. Violating them quickly doesn’t make them any less violated.

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Comments on “Appeals Court Reminds Cops They Can’t Create Their Own Exigency To Justify A Warrantless Search”

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Naughty Autie says:

Re:

What warrant? This was an unjustified search without a warrant, hence the Fourth Amendment violation complained of in court. As for ‘focusing on the color of someone’s skin’, Officer Cannon is presumably white, Officer Gonalez is presumably Latino, and Jamel Hurtt is presumably black. I’m just guessing basedon their names, however, since nowhere in this article does Tim Cushing mention the skin tones of any of the participants in this unreasonable search and seizure. Go back to kindergarten and learn the basics of the American Constitution, why don’t you?

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Back to kindergarten

Go back to kindergarten and learn the basics of the American Constitution, why don’t you?

Speaking of kindergarten, you should be aware that the police don’t always need a warrant to arrest or investigate.

Do the Police Need a Warrant to Arrest Me? | Frank A. Rubino, Esq. | Miami, FL (frankrubino.com)
https://www.frankrubino.com/faq-about-criminal-defense/do-the-police-need-a-warrant-to-arrest-me/

Arrest without warrant – Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrest_without_warrant

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Obviously not cut and dry

It’s not the police’s job to interpret the law – it’s the judges job. If the police can’t be bothered to adhere to current jurisprudence, what good are they for then? If they don’t they are just vigilantes with a badge.

Doesn’t seem cut and dry to me, even the judges weren’t consistent. One judge (District judge) agreed with the cops and sentence Hurtt to 4 years for unlawful possession of a gun (probably a felon—“we got to get those guns off the streets”). That verdict was overturned by the Circuit judge. Has anyone appealed the Circuit court’s opinion?

After the cops found the gun in Hurtt’s possession and determined it was unlawful for him to have it, they can’t just release him! A felon with a gun is a very serious crime. They did exactly what they should do. They placed him under arrest and let the courts decide.

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Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:

Doesn’t seem cut and dry to me, even the judges weren’t consistent.

Which doesn’t fucking matter, because it is still not the police’s job to interpret the law. An officer can’t know every little detail of any changes in jurisprudence because no one can, but if they are ignorant of the constitution and the limits it places on how the police should interact with citizens only means they regularly trample the rights of citizens and if unchecked you will end up with a police-force who will do what they please. Some of that is already happening where they just ignore duly elected leaders policy-changes how the police should work.

After the cops found the gun in Hurtt’s possession and determined it was unlawful for him to have it, they can’t just release him!

They broke the law when they went off mission and got into the car. It’s very simple, the police officers obligations are to keep abreast of the law they work under because how else are they supposed to know how to uphold it?

For some reason you think the police should ignore this because it’s too onerous, which means they will then break the law because they are ignorant of it – and the only reason they get away with that is because of qualified immunity.

Either the police are supposed to uphold the law to the best of their ability, or, they are lazy bums who just make shit up as they go ignoring what the law says because it’s easier that way. So, which is it?

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Which doesn’t fucking matter, because it is still not the police’s job to interpret the law.

Just so you know what we are talking about here is the 4th amendment.

“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

The key word is unreasonable

It is the judge’s job to interpret the law and they frequently have trouble with it. In this case one judge decided the cop’s actions were reasonable and the other judge thought they were unreasonable.

Either the police are supposed to uphold the law to the best of their ability, or, they are lazy bums who just make shit up as they go ignoring what the law says because it’s easier that way. So, which is it?

I will go with best of their ability and then let the judges decide.

Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Just so you know what we are talking about here is the 4th amendment.

I’m fully aware of it – the police aren’t.

The key word is unreasonable

Yes, and SCOTUS has already said that it’s unreasonable for the police to use pre-textual stops – and police just keep doing it.

I will go with best of their ability and then let the judges decide.

And by all evidence, best of their ability is abysmal especially considering they are routinely ignoring that they are allowed to do or not.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

After the cops found the gun in Hurtt’s possession

But before they found it they carried out an unconstitutional search, as they did not have a warrant or exigent circumstance for the search. The end does not justify the means, and to use it to justify what the police did is to grant them the ability to search anybody and anything whenever they want. Do so, and you will turn the police into the most hated group in the country.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

But before they found it they carried out an unconstitutional search, as they did not have a warrant or exigent circumstance for the search.

Cops do make mistakes but regardless of how they found Hurtt illegally in possession of a gun, once they knew it, the cops were compelled to arrest him. It is up to the DA to decide to press charges, judges and juries to decide guilt and judges to discharge the verdicts.

The search wasn’t determined unconstitutional (unreasonable) until more than 2 years later. I have no argument with either of the judge’s decisions. The system worked as it should.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Similar mistakes make the news so often that it looks kike the cops ignore the constitution. Besides which if it cost the wronged person a two year fight, assuming that they can afforf to fight, it looks like the cops win anyway.

Whether or not Hurtt had been caught, when he chose to illegally possess a gun, he broke the law. When the search was declared unconstitutional two years later that charge was dropped. Sounds like he broke the law and got off on a technicality. But there was no question he broke the law.

A mistake that is increasing in frequency in the US are mass shootings. Previously stops like this one would have been used to help get guns off the streets (as this one did). Now cops aren’t proactively looking for guns and the death rate is climbing. If you are in a gang or dealing with shady people, you better keep your gun close by. Don’t leave it at home and make sure you have more firepower than your opponent.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

The irony is painful – let me paraphrase you:
Every time the police trample someone’s rights they break the law and they get off on QI. There is no question they break the law.

Over 10 million arrests per year in the US. With millions of arrests made by 100s of thousands of cops there will be variations in circumstances and procedures. The very first assumption by the legal system is an assumption of innocence (the cops were wrong) which is protected by the courts during the trial. The DA, the judge and the defense attorney evaluate whether the police were lawful and correct in their actions.

Politicians, including judges and District Attorneys have qualified immunity to protect them from lawsuits. Remove their qualified immunity and see who wants to stand in their shoes. Same for the police.

I would love to sue Biden since his actions have already cost me thousands of dollars just in inflation. But guess what, I can’t.

Scary Devil Monastery (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

“A felon with a gun is a very serious crime. They did exactly what they should do. They placed him under arrest and let the courts decide.”

…and when the courts found that the police officers had broken the law in apprehending the presumptive felon the man walks. See how that works?

So by now you’re actually arguing that it was a good thing that the police officers acted ineptly enough to render the arrest worthless.

At this point I can’t even be sure whether you’re the real davec trolling on behalf of unbelievable stupidity or a troll pretending you’re a delusional fanatic for team Blue. This is how far out there your arguments are getting.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

So by now you’re actually arguing that it was a good thing that the police officers acted ineptly enough to render the arrest worthless.

Of course I’m not happy Hurtt got off, but the system worked and they got a gun off the streets. Two years later, the one judge ruled the cop’s actions violated the 4th amendment so Hurrt’s conviction overturned.

At this point I can’t even be sure whether you’re the real davec trolling on behalf of unbelievable stupidity or a troll pretending you’re a delusional fanatic for team Blue. This is how far out there your arguments are getting.

What I was arguing against at that point was letting a felon with a gun to simply walk away with the gun. Once the cop’s saw him with a gun, they were compelled to arrest him. Come on Shirley you can see that?

davec (profile) says:

Re: That was not davec

If activist judges didn’t insist on keeping the laws in flux because fucks like you keep focusing on the color of someone’s skin, maybe you wouldn’t have articles bitching about warrants that cops are entitled to.

This seems like a cowardly cheap trick. I never swear at anyone that didn’t swear at me.

Scary Devil Monastery (profile) says:

Re: Re:

…and yet swear words aside the troll mimics your arguments perfectly.

If a random troll spouting arrant nonsense can so easily be mistaken for the general trend of your own arguments it might be worthwhile to consider how much of your stance is rooted in “my team” zealotry to the point where you left sanity and reason by the wayside.

The US has a massive problem concerning Law Enforcement and most of it has to do with the people tasked to enforce those laws. All it takes is one bad cop per precinct for the net effect of that precinct as a whole to become negative. And you people allow for far more than just one bad cop per precinct.

Every other OECD country knows this and has taken steps to fix it. You people, otoh, just can’t be arsed to do so and instead rather than fixing the problems you consistently lower the bar of standards.
It’s no wonder “cop” has predictably become synonymous with “gang member” in much of the US.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

The US has a massive problem concerning Law Enforcement and most of it has to do with the people tasked to enforce those laws. All it takes is one bad cop per precinct for the net effect of that precinct as a whole to become negative. And you people allow for far more than just one bad cop per precinct.

Every other OECD country knows this and has taken steps to fix it. You people, otoh, just can’t be arsed to do so and instead rather than fixing the problems you consistently lower the bar of standards.
It’s no wonder “cop” has predictably become synonymous with “gang member” in much of the US.

I previously gave you the statics showing what cops are faced with over here. There are twice as many guns in the US as there are people in Britain. Now we have people modifying those guns into machine guns. We are averaging about 3 mass shootings a week here, most involving gang members playing war. That’s just the murder rate, hell, we even have train robberies here. We have District Attorneys that would rather throw cops in jail than criminals, yet we demand cops do something about crime, so we throw them into the breach. We have a moment of silence for the ones that fall and we throw the ones who make a mistake in jail. “One bullet from death, one mistake from jail.” Not one of your OCD cops would work under those conditions. If they would, there are lots of signing and retention bonuses to be had here.

If a random troll spouting arrant nonsense can so easily be mistaken for the general trend of your own arguments it might be worthwhile to consider how much of your stance is rooted in “my team” zealotry to the point where you left sanity and reason by the wayside.

Then to top it off there is a small percentage of people in the US and a huge percentage of people in this forum (like Stephen Too Stoned) that believe ACAB (all cops are bad). I’m not going to apologize for disrupting the echo chamber. I’ve often wondered what makes those people madder, the other viewpoint or the fact there is another viewpoint.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Not as awkward as you bitching about your son every time someone even remotely criticizes any police officer anywhere in the world, but you do you.

Haven’t mentioned him in this blog yet, but I will speak up for other officers.

FBI director says violence directed at police officers unlike anything he’s seen before (msn.com)
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fbi-director-says-violence-directed-at-police-officers-unlike-anything-he-s-seen-before/ar-AAWzo65?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=7fe75166beb54b9fa24567513f64064e

I know people are against militarizing the police but conditions are so dire Chicago has had to go to the US Marine corps to get recruits.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Again: Maybe cities/states should start addressing the root causes of crime rather than throwing more cops at the problems (and more military equipment at the cops).

Give me an example of one city that is doing what you want.

Here are some of the cities that tried defunding and have reversed course.

Seattle
Portland
San Francisco
New York
Minneapolis
Oakland
Chicago
Atlanta

Defunding the police could have worked but it would have required proactive policing to get guns off the streets, input from the police, agencies to handle non-criminal complaints and quality of life issues. All this could have been paid for by the gradual attrition of police officers. Now we have a mass exodus of police officers leaving a crime wave behind. It is estimated to take 10 years to get crime back down to the levels of just a couple of years ago and that would require fully staffed police departments. Nobody wants to be a cop now, so the outlook is bleak.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Give me an example of one city that is doing what you want.

Better idea: Give me an example of any city doing it with any sense of effort beyond “well we tried once and it didn’t work so let’s throw more cops and MRAPs at the problem”.

Defunding the police could have worked but it would have required proactive policing to get guns off the streets, input from the police, agencies to handle non-criminal complaints and quality of life issues.

Yes, because when I think of people to ask about defunding the police and funding social programs that can address poverty and homelessness and the unending desperation of living in a capitalist hellscape, I think of the fucking cops, who routinely treat poor people (especially the homeless) like shit~.

we have a mass exodus of police officers leaving a crime wave behind

No, what you have are cops saying that there’s a huge crime wave happening because they’re not getting millions of dollars poured into their departments. I don’t doubt that an absence of cops would result in at least some higher crime rates⁠—but to call it “huge” is to believe the cops when they report their data about crime reports. They’re given a shitload of leeway to say what is and isn’t a crime, after all⁠—and what better way to boost funding than to say there’s a crime wave and offer stats padded by overzealous (and possibly racist) policing as proof?

It is estimated to take 10 years to get crime back down to the levels of just a couple of years ago

Who estimated this? How did they come up with that estimate? What connections do they have to any police departments or law enforcement agencies? Don’t pull that passive voice bullshit with me, shitbird⁠—I’m more than well-versed enough in it to know it when I see it.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Better idea: Give me an example of any city doing it with any sense of effort beyond “well we tried once and it didn’t work so let’s throw more cops and MRAPs at the problem”.

Seattle
I’ll let you read how quickly things fell apart there.
Capitol Hill Occupied Protest – Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Occupied_Protest

The City Council voted to defund the police by 50%. They were consulting with attorneys to see if they could get rid of cops that were the wrong demographic and how to prevent the Seattle Police Officers Guild from challenging layoffs out of order. They had the perfect person to lead the police in Carmen Best—a respected Black woman and they were shocked when she left in September 2020. Best wasn’t insubordinate, she didn’t threaten or issue ultimatums, she just decided she couldn’t do the job under those conditions and resigned.

Turns out, the City Council didn’t need to worry about laying cops off out of order or because they were the wrong color; cops began leaving on their own. Cops rely on the consent of the vast majority of the citizens to police them, yet cops were being demonized and even refused service at restaurants. Riots, vandalism, protests along with crime and a lack of support had cops deciding they too couldn’t do the job anymore. Cops that could, retired. Some transferred to other departments, some went on disability and some just quit. The City of Seattle was down 260 cops with no one to replace them and every month it got worse.

Again, a perfect situation for the City Council. They would just hire the demographic they wanted, but now no one wanted to be a cop. The cops were losing control of the city and the Mayor and City Council soon realized that if the cops didn’t control an area, then neither did they. So then they started offering retention and hiring bonuses but few were accepting and the exodus continued. It wasn’t about money.

No, what you have are cops saying that there’s a huge crime wave happening because they’re not getting millions of dollars poured into their departments.

Data from 2021 shows a spike in homicides and shootings in the Seattle area last year, with 88 fatal shootings and 372 people wounded by gunfire in the county where the Pacific Northwest city is located. Jan 31, 2022

Has crime in Seattle increased?
Thursday’s violence comes on the heels of the SPD’s 2022 strategic plan to address the rise in crime. Interim Police Chief Adrian Diaz told a city council panel this week Seattle has seen more than a 95% increase in shots fired and a 171% increase in people being shot, compared to last year.Mar 25, 2022

I can give you similar stories for every city that tried it.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Before I address anything else, I want to get to this first:

Interim Police Chief Adrian Diaz told a city council panel this week Seattle has seen more than a 95% increase in shots fired and a 171% increase in people being shot, compared to last year.

What are the actual numbers behind those percentages? How many of those shootings involved police? How do you know for a fact that the police are telling you factual information without any padding of the numbers to make things sound worse than they are?

Now, as for the bulk of your comment:

The CHOP/CHAZ situation was not an example of a city putting a shitload of money into social services, even if Seattle had slashed the police budget. I didn’t hear shit about Seattle improving its social services (or starting any new ones) in the wake of the CHOP/CHAZ situation. If you did, I’d love to see the evidence of it.

As for the decreased number of police officers and the supposed higher rates of crime: Social problems don’t get solved by throwing more cops at the problems, so I don’t give a fuck if the number of cops decreased. I give a fuck if the city of Seattle put more money into caring for the homeless, the sick, the poor, and the marginalized⁠—people who are often treated poorly by cops as it is. I give a less of a fuck about whether the city threw more cops at those “problems” more of a fuck about whether the city tried to take care of those issues with something other than a group of people who possess both guns and a legal license to kill.

Crime is, far more often than not, borne out of desperation. Address the root causes of that desperation and you’ll prevent far more crime than you will by giving cops the leeway to arrest and kill people without accountability.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

What are the actual numbers behind those percentages? How many of those shootings involved police? How do you know for a fact that the police are telling you factual information without any padding of the numbers to make things sound worse than they are?

You know how to use a computer—right? You can use Google to help get answers to all your questions. I’m sure you’ll find the answers both shocking and disillusioning.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

What are the actual numbers behind those percentages? How many of those shootings involved police? How do you know for a fact that the police are telling you factual information without any padding of the numbers to make things sound worse than they are?

‘Not seeing it slow down at all’: Seattle hits grim mark of 13 homicides in 1st quarter of 2022 | The Seattle Times
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/law-justice/not-seeing-it-slow-down-at-all-seattle-hits-grim-mark-of-13-homicides-in-1st-quarter-of-2022/

Seattle Homicide (@HomicideSeattle) / Twitter
https://twitter.com/homicideseattle?lang=en

U.S. Cities’ Surge in Shootings Rattles Once-Safe Seattle – WSJ
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-cities-surge-in-shootings-rattles-once-safe-seattle-11646589942

These shootings are not being committed by “desperate poor” people. They are being committed by people who either don’t fear or expect accountability.

CHOP/CHAZ was an example of what happens when you remove police from an area. Creating a “safe space” that quickly became anything but “safe”. It was a perfect example of how to do it wrong.

As for the decreased number of police officers and the supposed higher rates of crime: Social problems don’t get solved by throwing more cops at the problems, so I don’t give a fuck if the number of cops decreased. I give a fuck if the city of Seattle put more money into caring for the homeless, the sick, the poor, and the marginalized⁠—people who are often treated poorly by cops as it is. I give a less of a fuck about whether the city threw more cops at those “problems” more of a fuck about whether the city tried to take care of those issues with something other than a group of people who possess both guns and a legal license to kill.

What Seattle did was to take the concept of “Defunding” and turn it into the worst possible outcome. Working with the police instead of demonizing, they could have systematically replaced 2 retiring officers with 1 officer and 1 social worker. Instead, they created a power vacuum that criminals felt embolden to exploit.

Crime is, far more often than not, borne out of desperation. Address the root causes of that desperation and you’ll prevent far more crime than you will by giving cops the leeway to arrest and kill people without accountability.

One of the main things that causes poverty is crime. Housing prices don’t rise in slums or high crime areas. Stores and business don’t want to stay where they are continually robbed or vandalized. Jobs vanish and blithe takes over.

Another thing that produces crime is the social environment that we raise our children in. Open air drug markets, homeless camps with shit covered streets, trash and needles in the parks where our children play, violent intoxicated people staggering around like zombies. We want our children appalled by crime, not mired in it.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

I was referring more to, as you put it, “people who either don’t fear or expect accountability”.

Most people that own or use guns feel they would only use them for self-defense. 19,600 people killed in 2021. Cops killed 1,055 people in 2021. About 11% of officer involved shootings were “suicide by cop”.
Suicide by cop – PubMed (nih.gov)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9832661/

Results: Suicide by cop accounted for 11% (n=46) of all officer-involved shootings and 13% of all officer-involved justifiable homicides. Ages of suicidal individuals ranged from 18 to 54 years; 98% were male. Forty-eight percent of weapons possessed by suicidal individuals were firearms, 17% replica firearms. The median time from arrival of officers at the scene to the time of the shooting was 15 minutes with 70% of shootings occurring within 30 minutes of arrival of officers. Thirty-nine percent of cases involved domestic violence. Fifty-four percent of suicidal individuals sustained fatal gunshot wounds. All deaths were classified by the coroner as homicides, as opposed to suicides.
Conclusion: Suicide by cop is an actual form of suicide. The most appropriate term for this phenomenon is law enforcement-forced-assisted suicide. Law enforcement agencies may be able to develop strategies for early recognition and handling of law enforcement-forced-assisted suicide (suicide by cop). Health care providers involved in the evaluation of potentially suicidal individuals and in the resuscitation of officer-involved shootings should be aware of law enforcement-forced-assisted suicide as a form of suicide.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:19

None of that disproves the idea that cops don’t fear or expect accountability

As I have said numerous times, the cops don’t see themselves as Chauvin, but they do relate to Potter. She had been an exemplary officer for 26 years and if they would throw her in jail, then they would throw any cop in jail who made a split-second decision and got it wrong. So they know there will be accountability in the form of retribution.

They also know that the chances of them being killed or injured on the job have gone up, leaving them in the position of “one bullet from death and one mistake from jail”. Most cops don’t want to quit, but they have a responsibility to their families not to subject them to that risk, so they’re getting out one way or another.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:20

“the cops don’t see themselves as Chauvin”

Jerks, assholes and bullies don’t tend to see themselves as jerks, assholes or bullies. The ones who freely admit to being jerks, assholes or bullies don’t usually believe that they’re at risk of being caught, or suffering the consequences of their actions.

You’re probably right that cops don’t see themselves as Chauvin. They’ll want to distance themselves from the weak link in the chain. But that’s a meaningless distinction. All it takes is a bunch of cops raiding a medical marijuana facility, or some off-color racist jokes expressed after a cop fails to realize his bodycam wasn’t turned off, for their true colors to be revealed.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:21

Jerks, assholes and bullies don’t tend to see themselves as jerks, assholes or bullies. The ones who freely admit to being jerks, assholes or bullies don’t usually believe that they’re at risk of being caught, or suffering the consequences of their actions.

You’re probably right that cops don’t see themselves as Chauvin. They’ll want to distance themselves from the weak link in the chain. But that’s a meaningless distinction. All it takes is a bunch of cops raiding a medical marijuana facility, or some off-color racist jokes expressed after a cop fails to realize his bodycam wasn’t turned off, for their true colors to be revealed.

You must be the one writing the police recruitment pamphlets because very few people are showing up. Of those that do, many can’t pass the background check and most don’t complete the training. Cities are getting desperate, lowering the standards and raising the signing bonuses. Maybe they’ll lower them enough to accept an “Anonymous Coward”.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:22

Congratulations, you figured out how not to address any of what was brought up. But keep telling yourself that cops don’t have biases, whatever helps to manage the nightly incontinence.

Of those that do, many can’t pass the background check and most don’t complete the training

The police force generally don’t think much of people who can think for themselves, or those less willing to act on biases. Plenty of training testimony indicates this. It’s not surprising the Chauvins regularly slip through the cracks when you validate them.

Maybe they’ll lower them enough to accept an “Anonymous Coward”.

If you’re so desperate to go back to the golden age you think things were why don’t you sign up? Put a few bullets in the woke youngsters you hate so much.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:23

The police force generally don’t think much of people who can think for themselves, or those less willing to act on biases. Plenty of training testimony indicates this. It’s not surprising the Chauvins regularly slip through the cracks when you validate them.

So with that perception of the police can you understand why nobody wants to be a cop anymore?

If you’re so desperate to go back to the golden age you think things were why don’t you sign up? Put a few bullets in the woke youngsters you hate so much.

As a 70 year old Vietnam era veteran, they probably won’t take me plus I’ve already put my life on the line for the ungrateful once before. You (who are obviously anti-police) and my son (who is a cop) have both stated that regardless of my actions as a cop I would be seen as a Chauvin, a racist, a bully, and a criminal. So why would I or anyone sign up. You certainly wouldn’t and for the same reason.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:24

So with that perception of the police can you understand why nobody wants to be a cop anymore?

On the contrary, you’ve made it a perk of the job. Which is why you piss and moan every time you think qualified immunity comes under threat. It’s not a perception, it’s something that cops regularly expect. It’s something that unions defend on the claim that not excusing biased practices makes it impossible for them to do their job.

As a 70 year old Vietnam era veteran, they probably won’t take me

I’m not convinced they aren’t desperate enough.

You (who are obviously anti-police) and my son (who is a cop) have both stated that regardless of my actions as a cop I would be seen as a Chauvin, a racist, a bully, and a criminal

Your son believes this because he’s inconvenienced. I believe you as an individual will likely behave in a racist and bullying manner because you have indicated through your comment history that you are predisposed to such behaviors. Whether you are a criminal or a Chauvin is going to be dependent on what evidence surfaces if it comes to that, but if I had to wager a guess, it would not surprise me if your body camera footage suddenly corrupted or was locked away in police bureaucracy, or if your lawyer insisted that the footage was wrong and that the fleeing unarmed naked man you shot in the back deeply deserved it.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Then to top it off there is a small percentage of people in the US and a huge percentage of people in this forum (like Stephen Too Stoned) that believe ACAB (all cops are bad)

Apparently its a “small percentage”, and yet you think this small percentage is so powerful you have to bitch about them constantly. Then again, you have a very vested interest in portraying cops as mewling whelps who simply can’t function without persistent benefit of the doubt when they shoot someone.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

I’m not bitching about the small percentage out there.

Don’t lie to our faces. And if you don’t like our attitudes, leave⁠—nobody is forcing you to stay here and belligerently argue with us about your belief that cops don’t deserve to be held accountable for their actions. Most of the people you’ve been arguing with here were here well before you; we’ll be here long after you go the fuck away⁠…which I’m encouraging you to do.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Don’t lie to our faces. And if you don’t like our attitudes, leave⁠—nobody is forcing you to stay here and belligerently argue with us about your belief that cops don’t deserve to be held accountable for their actions. Most of the people you’ve been arguing with here were here well before you; we’ll be here long after you go the fuck away⁠…which I’m encouraging you to do.

I’ll leave when it’s no longer fun or when I’ve finally convinced you to pull your head out of your ass.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Now you’ve admitted to being a troll, because anyone else would’ve taken the brighter-than-the-sun hint that they’re not welcome.

There is a small percentage of people out there that believe ACAB, but this echo chamber is dedicated to it. I will continue to point out where your ACAB viewpoint is not only wrong, but stupid.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Trolls are neither the most principled nor strategic of people. They’re in it to push buttons, and rarely will they have an actual plan when their buttons get pushed. The actually smart ones move on. The dumb ones, like davec, throw tantrums and think that moral outrage will save them like the Jan 6th idiots.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Trolls are neither the most principled nor strategic of people. They’re in it to push buttons, and rarely will they have an actual plan when their buttons get pushed. The actually smart ones move on. The dumb ones, like davec, throw tantrums and think that moral outrage will save them like the Jan 6th idiots.

I was appalled by Jan. 6, but then again, I was appalled by all the riots. I’m also appalled by threating the life of a Supreme Court Justice.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Nah, you’ve already insisted that you think Biden is going to ruin the country. You think it’s going to be some combination of Democrats and “woke” millennials and judges, because God forbid anyone blame trigger happy cops who fear for their life from a naked fleeing man.

Again, tracking your comments isn’t difficult.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Nah, you’ve already insisted that you think Biden is going to ruin the country. You think it’s going to be some combination of Democrats and “woke” millennials and judges, because God forbid anyone blame trigger happy cops who fear for their life from a naked fleeing man.

Biden’s not running the country. Nobody is. We went from the best economy in my lifetime to the worst economy in my lifetime in less than 18 months.

Biden took a divided country and made it more divided. Between mandatory vaccinations and abortions, Americans don’t know if they have control of their bodies or not. The Democratic Party isn’t even ran by Democrats. It’s made up of Socialist, Progressives, liberals and Democrats that don’t want the same thing. Biden is clueless as to who he represents.

Americans don’t know whether to judge someone by the color of their skin, the content of their character or their preferred pronoun.

The “Woke” want to control the country, yet they can’t tell the difference between male and female. They want “Free Speech” but are against dissenting voices being heard. They are incapable of raising or even defining a normal healthy child yet they want unobstructed control our children. They want alternatives to policing yet are clueless on how to achieve it. They want the police restrained and then blame guns for our cities turning into shooting galleries and social inequities for them becoming crime ridden.

We don’t know if the news we are being bombarded with is misinformation, disinformation, propaganda, corporate media, mainstream media, left-wing bias, or right-wing bias. All we know is that it’s partisan bullshit and completely different depending on what channel you’re watching.

Biden gave Afghanistan back to the Taliban. The Taliban announced today that all women must wear Burkas in public. So much for supporting a woman’s right to choose.

Putin saw an opportunity of a lifetime with a feeble minded President in the Whitehouse. If it wasn’t for the new leader of the Free World (Zelensky) and the Ukrainian people we would be facing a reconstituted Soviet Union. Despite that, Biden believes the Americans that didn’t vote for him are the “real danger” and that is the “real danger”.

Again, tracking your comments isn’t difficult.

I’m glad, that’s why I added some more.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

I’m not bitching about the small percentage out there

Again, davec… We can read your comment history. Every post you make is about the percentage of people you think are convincing judges to screw the police over at every possible turn.

I’m bitching about the huge percentage in here.

Which, at best, constitutes no more than a part of the small percentage out there, which you claim to be not bitching about. It’s funny how you trolls keep insisting that we’re responsible for so much policy you dislike, while at the same time your goto for rejecting anything said is how insignificant we are.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Again, davec… We can read your comment history. Every post you make is about the percentage of people you think are convincing judges to screw the police over at every possible turn.

I think there is a very small percentage of people out there that believe ACAB—All Cops Are Bad, but in here I’m about the only one that doesn’t think so. I don’t believe for one second that the judge in the Potter trial felt she was dispensing justice when she sent Potter to jail. The judge labeled it for what it was “retribution”. The same mistake had been made 9 times previously and no one was charged.

Which, at best, constitutes no more than a part of the small percentage out there, which you claim to be not bitching about. It’s funny how you trolls keep insisting that we’re responsible for so much policy you dislike, while at the same time your goto for rejecting anything said is how insignificant we are.

I’m not replying to how significant you are, but how wrong you are.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

I don’t believe for one second that the judge in the Potter trial felt she was dispensing justice when she sent Potter to jail

That’s on you. Apparently for you, the opinions of others on how judges feel don’t matter unless it inconveniences cops.

The judge labeled it for what it was “retribution”.

Based on the legal definition, and Potter qualified. I don’t necessarily agree with the severity of the penalty, but quibbling with what the law calls it because you feel it has shitty connotations is meaningless at this point.

The same mistake had been made 9 times previously and no one was charged

We’ve been over this and your obsession with ensuring that cops are never punished for their mistakes. One day if a cop decides your gun ownership is grounds for a no-knock warrant – despite courts repeatedly telling them that gun ownership by itself is no grounds for suspicion – and the mistake costs the life of your loved one, I wonder if you’ll be at peace with the idea of no one getting charged.

but how wrong you are

Your idea of “how wrong you are” is demanding that we stop celebrating Chauvin’s conviction. Why don’t you go out onto the streets and scream that anyone who celebrates Chauvin’s conviction is a cop killer? How about the black communities? After all, most of them agreed with the conviction. Why not go out and berate their “stupidity” and see how that goes?

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Your idea of “how wrong you are” is demanding that we stop celebrating Chauvin’s conviction. Why don’t you go out onto the streets and scream that anyone who celebrates Chauvin’s conviction is a cop killer? How about the black communities? After all, most of them agreed with the conviction. Why not go out and berate their “stupidity” and see how that goes?

You can celebrate Chauvin’s conviction all you want. Cost you nothing, but there is and has been a cost and much of that has been paid in the Black community.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

“If you celebrate the conviction of a cop who killed one of you, we’ll take our ball, go home, and tell you to go fuck yourselves.” No, davec, you’ve never implied any threats at all. You keep telling yourself that.

I never said they would take the ball and go home. You get to keep the ball, they’re just going to go home. It was never a threat, just a foreseeable reaction.

BTW I have been saying that for more than a year, because that is what they have been saying. You just didn’t care enough to listen to them.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

I never said they would take the ball and go home. You get to keep the ball, they’re just going to go home.

A distinction without a meaningful difference.

It was never a threat, just a foreseeable reaction.

“No officer; I never threatened to kill him. I just said it’s a foreseeable reaction if I did.”

A reminder that the “foreseeable reaction” in this case is that police would stop doing their jobs (with the expectation that this would cause great harm to the community they are supposed to protect), all because people were celebrating the fact that a cop who murdered one of them got convicted of murdering someone. Exactly how is that a “foreseeable reaction” and not a threat (implied or otherwise)?

BTW I have been saying that for more than a year, because that is what they have been saying.

[citation needed]

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

A distinction without a meaningful difference.

Huge difference. If they decided to remain yet refused to do their jobs that would be “taking their ball and going home”. Deciding to get out of policing either by retirement, resigning, or transferring to a less dangerous position would be “just going home”.

“No officer; I never threatened to kill him. I just said it’s a foreseeable reaction if I did.”

A reminder that the “foreseeable reaction” in this case is that police would stop doing their jobs (with the expectation that this would cause great harm to the community they are supposed to protect), all because people were celebrating the fact that a cop who murdered one of them got convicted of murdering someone. Exactly how is that a “foreseeable reaction” and not a threat (implied or otherwise)?

Don’t forget demonstrators throwing rocks, bottles and shit at them. Cities burning and looted and even as they are trying to stop that they are being blamed for causing it. Politicians and DAs targeting them for political gain. School officials demonizing them to their own children. The streets have become far more dangerous. Officers tested, filmed and scrutinized at every stop like never before. With every officer that leaves and is not replaced the stress increases on those that remain. Cities and police departments canceling vacations and demanding officers work overtime to fill the void.

If Chauvin had been acquitted the above conditions would have been worse but that doesn’t change the fact that the job has become more dangerous, overwhelming, unrewarding, unfulfilling and demoralizing. Not something you want to sign up for or continue doing. So their leaving is not a threat, but a reasonable and foreseeable reaction.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:12

If they decided to remain yet refused to do their jobs that would be “taking their ball and going home”. Deciding to get out of policing either by retirement, resigning, or transferring to a less dangerous position would be “just going home”.

In both cases, cops blame the public for daring to get angry that another cop killed a man for a misdemeanor, and do jack all to stop brutality. Distinction without a difference.

Officers tested, filmed and scrutinized at every stop like never before.

When your bodycam footage magically manages to fail while several cops gun down a man raising his bare hands, you tend to lose the benefit of the doubt.

If Chauvin had been acquitted the above conditions would have been worse

But that won’t stop you pissing and moaning about the public reaction to him, apparently. You keep carrying his water and taking offense on his behalf it’s a wonder you haven’t snapped your back from the effort.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

BTW I have been saying that for more than a year, because that is what they have been saying

This much, we know. Because a quick Google search on this site shows that you were making the same arguments a year back when Derek Chauvin was arrested. You demonstrated the same righteous anger about the fact that Chauvin was arrested.

You keep insisting that you think Chauvin is a bad cop. Yet when actions are taken to remedy that, or give him the penalties permitted under the law, while tempered by limits and due process, you rant, rave, and scream that all of this will have consequences downstream if a single hair on Chauvin’s head is infringed upon.

This isn’t hard. I’ve linked to your juicy quotes several times. The idea that you think Chauvin deserved punishment is laughable. You clearly don’t believe it.

You just didn’t care enough to listen to them.

Techdirt has tracked enough police pleas that in summary said “If you don’t allow us to rough up suspects, make no-knock warrants, or kill people without consequence, everything will go to hell.” Believe me, we’ve been hearing this tripe from the police for years.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

This much, we know. Because a quick Google search on this site shows that you were making the same arguments a year back when Derek Chauvin was arrested. You demonstrated the same righteous anger about the fact that Chauvin was arrested.

Apparently you don’t know how to use Google because I never signed on to Techdirt until September of 21. Regardless, I have been saying cops would be leaving after having talked with my son and daughter-in-law and that was more than a year ago.

You keep insisting that you think Chauvin is a bad cop. Yet when actions are taken to remedy that, or give him the penalties permitted under the law, while tempered by limits and due process, you rant, rave, and scream that all of this will have consequences downstream if a single hair on Chauvin’s head is infringed upon.

What I keep insisting is that not “All Cops Are Chauvin” yet many if not most people in this forum think otherwise. Potter wasn’t Chauvin, Rolfe wasn’t, and the 19 cops in Austin Texas weren’t, nor are the vast, vast majority of cops. For you or anybody to lump them all together, demonize and demand collective punishment, you have contributed to the crisis in crime and policing in this country.

Techdirt has tracked enough police pleas that in summary said “If you don’t allow us to rough up suspects, make no-knock warrants, or kill people without consequence, everything will go to hell.” Believe me, we’ve been hearing this tripe from the police for years.

Things are going to hell and they are going to get worse before they get better.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:12

Apparently you don’t know how to use Google because I never signed on to Techdirt until September of 21

This much, people already know. Again, Googling pegs the davec pseudonym at September 27th, 2021. I don’t mean exactly one year ago. It’s not much of a distinction. The point is that people see the comments you make and the underlying threats.

What I keep insisting is that not “All Cops Are Chauvin”

What you think is people celebrating Chauvin’s arrest are scum of the earth and should be made to feel that way until you stop clutching your pearls.

For you or anybody to lump them all together, demonize and demand collective punishment

Apparently that isn’t okay, but you’ve got no problem lumping anyone who disagrees with you as a “woke activist” or a “criminal” or a “murderer” or a “rapist”.

Things are going to hell and they are going to get worse before they get better.

You’re the one cheering on the leavers and getting angry at Chauvin getting punished over the acts he did. You’re the equivalent of the bully who punches another student in the stomach, and threatens to punch his victim even harder if his actions are reported to the teacher. Bullies like you dish it out all the time, but look at the tantrums you throw when you risk being mildly inconvenienced.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

You’re the one cheering on the leavers and getting angry at Chauvin getting punished over the acts he did. You’re the equivalent of the bully who punches another student in the stomach, and threatens to punch his victim even harder if his actions are reported to the teacher. Bullies like you dish it out all the time, but look at the tantrums you throw when you risk being mildly inconvenienced.

Not cheering anything, just explaining the obvious and the foreseeable results. You view cops as Chauvins, criminals, etc. so why aren’t you happy they are leaving? You’re getting what you want, you’ve won the argument. ACAB (all cops are bad)! Why would anyone want to be bad? Why would anyone want to be a cop?

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

Clearly enough did, and that’s how you get people like Chauvin thinking that they’d be able to escape consequence because the system you defend would have protected him.

The key word there is “did”.

The Spotlight: Police recruiting wars as Seattle faces looming public safety crisis (q13fox.com)
https://www.q13fox.com/video/1067148
Aggressive recruitment, hiring critical for Portland PD to fill vacancies, report says (police1.com)
https://www.police1.com/police-recruiting/articles/aggressive-recruitment-hiring-critical-for-portland-pd-to-fill-vacancies-report-says-iiPIQOf0qfDeMOtO/

I could add dozens of more cities.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

I’m not bitching about the small percentage out there

Every other post you make is about your son and the risk he faces because of “activist judges” and criminals trying to catch your son in gotcha moments on their cellphones. One, you don’t believe that the percentage out there is “small”. Two, you bitch about this all the time. You use it as justification against punishing cops.

The contents of your posts are transparent and publicly visible. Lying is not going to stop you from getting called out on your bullshit every time.

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