Supreme Court Deals Blow To Lying Cops, Lowers Bar For Malicious Prosecution Lawsuits

from the misreading-the-law-to-make-the-law-better dept

I’ll admit this recent decision sort of passed me by. My brief read of it suggested nothing more was happening than an affirmation of preexisting law via lots of procedural discussion. There are plenty of hoops people who have been falsely accused of crimes need to jump through before a court will even entertain their complaints. And there’s plenty of immunity — some qualified and some absolute — that stands in the way of seeking justice. Most of these claims fail. And for obvious reasons. Plenty of inmates feel they’ve been falsely accused. Few actually have been. Even fewer still can actually prove it.

But the Supreme Court’s Thompson v. Clark decision [PDF] rewrites the law, giving even more people the option to pursue malicious prosecution lawsuits. The bar is no longer a declaration of innocence by a judge or a jury. It can now be brought when prosecutors refuse to prosecute because no evidence supports the charges. This is (potentially) huge, as Mark Joseph Stern reports for Slate.

The Supreme Court has spent years debating whether the Fourth Amendment prohibits “malicious prosecutions,” or the filing of bogus criminal charges, without arriving at an answer. On Monday, Kavanaugh finally broke this impasse with an unexpectedly great decision that underscores his talent for dressing up major decisions in the guise of minor ones. His opinion in Thompson v. Clark declared that the court has already recognized a Fourth Amendment right against malicious prosecutions, which he defined as the “wrongful initiation of charges without probable cause.” Kavanaugh’s assertion is not actually true, but it doesn’t matter: The Supreme Court has now willed this protection into existence, establishing a federal shield against falsified charges.

This is obviously not the preferred path for precedent. But we’ll take it, I guess? I mean the Third Party Doctrine and the doctrine of qualified immunity exists nowhere in the laws passed by Congress, but they’re still both law of the land thanks to Supreme Court decisions. Getting the law wrong to reach the right conclusion increases the chances the Supreme Court will review this decision in the future and undo the majority’s decision, but for now, this means people that actually haven’t been convicted or served any time can sue cops and prosecutors for trying to prosecute them on bogus charges, rather than limited to those against whom the bogus charges have stuck.

The path to this point is completely unsurprising. A person asserted their rights when law enforcement showed up unexpectedly at their doorway. And police responded with violence and “contempt of cop” charges against the person asserting their rights.

Larry Thompson lived with his fiancée (now wife) and their newborn baby girl in an apartment in Brooklyn, New York. In January 2014, Thompson’s sister-in-law was also staying there. The sister-in-law apparently suffered from a mental illness. One day that January, the sister-in-law called 911 and claimed that Thompson was sexually abusing his one-week-old baby daughter. Two Emergency Medical Technicians promptly responded. When the EMTs arrived at the family’s apartment, Thompson asked the EMTs why they were there and denied that anyone had called 911. The EMTs left and informed the police of the situation.

The EMTs and four police officers then returned to the apartment. When they arrived, Thompson told them that they could not come in without a warrant. The police officers nonetheless entered and, after a brief scuffle, handcuffed Thompson. The EMTs followed the officers into the apartment and examined the baby. After finding red marks on the baby’s body, the EMTs took the baby to the hospital for evaluation. The marks turned out to be a case of diaper rash. The medical professionals found no signs of abuse.

Meanwhile, the police officers arrested Thompson for resisting their entry into the apartment. Thompson was taken to a local hospital and then to jail. While Thompson was in custody, one of the police officers prepared and filed a criminal complaint charging Thompson with obstructing governmental administration and resisting arrest. Thompson remained in custody for two days. A judge then released him on his own recognizance.

Before the trial, the prosecution dismissed the charges. No explanation was given by prosecutors and the judge simply accepted the motion to dismiss without comment. According to precedent, this shouldn’t be enough to allow a lawsuit of this type to proceed. There was no “affirmative indications of innocence,” only a dismissal without explanation.

The Supreme Court says the previous bar for malicious prosecution suits was too high. Fourth Amendment claims — like false searches and seizures that lead to bogus criminal charges — can now be pursued in federal court even without an actual acquittal or judicial determination of innocence.

So… the Fourth Amendment and the path to justice both got a little better, perhaps by accident. When so much goes the government’s way in cases like these, we’ll take any wins we can get. And this should make it a bit clearer to cops and prosecutors that lying about criminal acts to punish someone for asserting their rights is going to be a bit more difficult to defend.

Filed Under: , , ,

Rate this comment as insightful
Rate this comment as funny
You have rated this comment as insightful
You have rated this comment as funny
Flag this comment as abusive/trolling/spam
You have flagged this comment
The first word has already been claimed
The last word has already been claimed
Insightful Lightbulb icon Funny Laughing icon Abusive/trolling/spam Flag icon Insightful badge Lightbulb icon Funny badge Laughing icon Comments icon

Comments on “Supreme Court Deals Blow To Lying Cops, Lowers Bar For Malicious Prosecution Lawsuits”

Subscribe: RSS Leave a comment
311 Comments

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Damned if they do and damned if they don't.

As I said, “why risk it”? You willing to bet your home that the caller was telling the truth?

In the example given above, if a police officer can be sued for investigating a recorded 911 call from a confirmed destination, then all domestic violence calls could be thwarted simply by closing the door. The police officers didn’t get to talk to the women who made the 911 call that they were sent to investigate so they don’t know how credible it was. Should the 911 operator also be held liable for sending them there in the first place?

If it was a valid call and the police didn’t investigate, eventually the child would end up in the hospital or the morgue. In my opinion, that would be when I would hold the police liable.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

If the author’s interpretation holds true, they would probably have to get a search warrant now. Search warrants are very detailed and specific and as such time consuming. Shouldn’t they issue a search warrant before they send the police? If a child’s life is in danger, why leave the cops waiting at the door?

nasch (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Search warrants are very detailed and specific and as such time consuming.

“This can takes minutes in special cases where time is of the essence and an officer can expedite their case, but it normally takes a few hours.”

“Exigent circumstance is a legal concept that is often used to justify a warrantless search and seizure. Exigent circumstances describe a situation as an emergency that requires immediate action. Circumstances that would justify immediate action include:

Preventing imminent danger to life or serious damage to property
Stop the escape of a suspect
Prevent the destruction of evidence"

What else you got?

https://www.lawyersincorporated.com/how-long-does-it-take-to-get-a-search-warrant/

https://www.aerlawgroup.com/blog/exigent-circumstances-what-they-are-and-how-they-allow-police-to-search-and-seize-without-a-warrant/

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

As I said, “why risk it”?

So much for being the brave warriors protecting us from total anarchy, huh?

Maybe you’re touching on something significant after all…that most cops are not the altruistic heroes we want them to be, but calculating cowards who’d rather shit themselves in the patrol car while claiming a paycheck for their ‘hazardous work.’

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Somewhat off topic, but you do know that it’s not just women who get abused, don’t you? The reverse also happens, more than you might think. Women are just as capable of being abusers as men, and many men are the victims rather than the aggressors. Just something to keep in mind instead of automatically assuming that any 911 call about domestic violence must be done by a woman.

This comment has been deemed funny by the community.
Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Yeah! We really need some sort of mechanism to allow police to legally obtain entry to private property whenever they suspect a crime might have happened and need to find some actual evidence of it.

We have to make sure they can only use this power when they’re searching for proof of a specific crime, though. Like if a citizen calls 911 and tells them about it.

Maybe we could call it a “warrant”, since such a search would be warranted under those sorts of circumstances.

Man, something like that would be super helpful for these poor police officers, who are just trying to keep defenseless kids safe from abusive invasions of their privacy.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

Scary Devil Monastery (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

You know, your repeated defense of utterly indefensible bullshit is growing tiresome.

And in this case you’re just flat-out lying.

The officers might, depending on jurisdiction, be merited to enter by force, or not, but that’s not even what the OP was about.

It was about malicious prosecution. I.e. the cops charged the homeowner with a phony charge for standing up for his rights.

Not that this will matter much, because even if an officer kneels on someone’s neck until they die you’ve repeatedly shown that the only thing you’ll lament over is the fate of the poor officer getting penalized for what you see as “doing his job”.

All I can say is that with defenders like you the police don’t need enemies.

Cattress (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Gee, they could actually get the warrant. Conduct an actual investigation. Tap other state resources like social services for help.
Don’t pretend that cops always bother to investigate emergency calls like they actually care, I can think of a couple women (sadly also the kids) that were being murdered by their estranged partners which the police just drove by, or claimed that they couldn’t find the correctly reported address in an apartment complex (the neighbors saw the woman dragged violently back inside her home as they had come outside)

Scary Devil Monastery (profile) says:

Re: Re:

That is exactly what davec keeps saying. That and lamenting that police officers can’t do their job if they are charged when they actually murder people.

You know, as someone who lives in a nation practicing Peelian policing I have to say not a day goes by but that I’m forcefully reminded that I’m really lucky not to live in the US of A.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Collecting a paycheck while not doing the job isn’t really ethical is it?

So if we lose these freeloading fucks, nothing of value is lost. We’ll have the same output, without the expenditure.

Go ahead – leave. See where you can find that pay somewhere else. I fucking dare any piece of shit cop who thinks they’ll have it so good in the private sector to fuck off and put their money where their big fucking mouths are.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

You’ve called them freeloading fucks, slave catchers, criminals, murderers, etc. Why would they put their lives, their livelihoods, their freedom, and the financial wellbeing of their family on the line for you? Who would when all they have to do is respond to a 911 call, drive safely to the scene and then wait for their lawyers to show up and make sure they are not only physically protected but legally covered before proceeding? That is what you want, right?

You tell them to go ahead and leave and that’s what they are doing and despite lowered standards, retaining and signing bonuses, there are very few replacements.

My daughter-in-law has retired, and my son has (after more than 23 years) transferred from patrol to a tech job within the department. I was an aerospace engineer, and both my son and daughter-in-law are much more capable than I ever hoped to be. They could have been anything. For them, it was never about money, it was about making a difference. They gave the better part of their lives to the job, but as my son said “I am so done”. He has 26 months to retirement.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

Eldakka (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

You’ve called them freeloading fucks, slave catchers, criminals, murderers, etc. Why would they put their lives, their livelihoods, their freedom, and the financial wellbeing of their family on the line for you? Who would when all they have to do is respond to a 911 call, drive safely to the scene and then wait for their lawyers to show up and make sure they are not only physically protected but legally covered before proceeding? That is what you want, right?

If the police officers need lawyers to arrive to tell them what their police powers are in that situation, then I would call those officers ‘freeloaders’ – if I’m being kind, but since I’m not, I’ll call them incompetent buffoons.

It’s their job, in their actual job description, to know what their powers are and how to use them. In this case, they evidently did not know what their powers were, or more likely, too arrogant and felt invulnerable in their law-enforcement club (police, prosecutors, judges) to care and decided to just do whatever the fuck they wanted.

So we have 2 options, incompetent buffoons or un-restrained arrogance and corrupt – criminal – belief that they can do whatever they want.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

No, you have a 3rd option and if you had read the article, you would have known what it was. Since you didn’t, the third option is the rules have changed. There supposedly is a new interpretation of the 4th amendment that opens up police officers to being sued if a DA decides to drop charges.

There have been a lot of changes to the “new normal” that has moved policing from dangerous and difficult to deadly and impossible. Officers shot in the line of duty is up 43% from 2021. There are more guns than ever on the street and police are looking for the exits. The politicians that called for Defunding are now calling for bonuses and raises trying to get the police to stay but they are still leaving. As one officer put it, “one bullet from death and one mistake from prison”.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

There supposedly is a new interpretation of the 4th amendment that opens up police officers to being sued if a DA decides to drop charges.

The ruling by the Supreme Court lowers the bar for the standards under which people can sue for “malicious prosecution”. It doesn’t make all arrests fall under that distinction. It doesn’t make lawsuits filed for that reason any more likely to succeed if they get past a motion to dismiss. And it doesn’t do all this shit you claim about keeping cops from arresting people under typical (or even exigent) circumstances.

Officers shot in the line of duty is up 43% from 2021.

Up 43% from what number in what year(s)? How many people were killed by cops in 2021⁠—and how much did that number go up compared to the same prior timeframe?

There are more guns than ever on the street and police are looking for the exits.

Gee, maybe getting in bed with the NRA and other Second Amendment lunatics was a bad idea~. Who could’ve known~?

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

According to the article you linked:

The National Fraternal Order of Police (FOP), the world’s largest organization of law enforcement officers, has counted 101 officers shot in the line of duty as of April 1, including 17 fatally, so far in 2022.

The latest figure marks a 43% increase compared to the number of officers shot at the same time period in 2021 and a 63% increase compared to 2020, FOP reports.

That comes to about 70 officers shot in the first three months of 2021 and about 62 officers shot in the first three months of 2020. (The article mentions nothing about the number of fatal shootings of police officers in those periods.)

I might be doing a bit of a Gish Gallop here, but I’d like some more context for those numbers. Thus, I have a few questions:

  • What percentage of total police officers in the United States do all of those shootings represent?
  • What percentage of total police officers in the United States do the fatal shootings represent?
  • How many civilians did police officers shoot in the first three months of 2020, 2021, and 2022?
  • How many civilians did police officers fatally shoot in the first three months of 2020, 2021, and 2022?
  • Which number is higher in each time period: the number of police officers shot in the line of duty (fatally or otherwise) or the number of civilians shot by police officers (fatally or otherwise)?
Eldakka (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

No, you have a 3rd option and if you had read the article, you would have known what it was. Since you didn’t, the third option is the rules have changed.

Says the moron who may have read the article, but obviously was too stupid to understand.

The case did not change 4th Amendment jurispredence in any way. It doesn’t expand or reduce what powers a police officer has. It does not change the calculus of when an officer needs a warrant or when ‘exigent’ circumstances apply. It does nothing with respect to that, at all.

It changes existing judge-made-law (i.e. common law decisions) that restricted a victims ability to sue police for the police abusing, breaching the 4th Amendment. It makes no mention, no change to, what is considered a breach of 4th amendment protections. The abuses the police and DA subjected the victims to are and were always abuses of the 4th amendment, prior to and after this ruling. What has changed is that law enforcement can’t hide behind their badge and say “I can do whatever the fuck I want because you have no recourse, if you try anything we’ll just bury you under criminal charges and ruin your life, so just suck it up you plebians”. The law-enforcement club had put a barrier up to prevent victims of police abuse from pursuing those corrupt police and DAs. This ruling tears down one of those artifically – that is common-law (not constitutional, not legislated) – erected barriers that protect the police (and DAs) from their corrupt anti-constitutional actions.

Scary Devil Monastery (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

“You’ve called them freeloading fucks, slave catchers, criminals, murderers, etc.”

Because they are?

In the rest of the world the “police” has higher standards and successfully practice those standards.

Here’s the problem in a nutshell; US law enforcement has set such a low bar of standards on how they do things that every time the comparison comes up to just about any other nation in the OECD you come up horribly short.

The rest of the damn world can manage a police force abiding by the rules. Is this just the new american exceptionalism, where you can’t do, to save your lives, what everyone else manages just fine?

US cops have earned their reputation among the population. And your son probably knows damn well that in his very own PD he can find three or four rotten apples who make sure no one sees a uniform and a badge and feels relief in their district.

It’s something we learned centuries ago here in Europe. One bad cop undoes the work of hundreds and gives every copper a shitty rep.

This “problem” you have with the people not giving the police benefit of doubt start and ends with the police themselves. Always has. They didn’t bother to clean house – on the other hand they always kept code blue. This is the outcome.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Nobody in this forum would give the police the benefit of the doubt which is why the cops here feel damned if they do and damned if they don’t. In the US you have a million gang members playing war in the streets of our cities. Many of them are now carrying their guns with them everywhere. Many of those guns have been modified to be fully automatic. You would think the police would be empowered to do something about that, but since 89% of those gang members aren’t white, the police are labeled racist if they do crackdown. Black leaders like Al Sharpton and now demanding more cops, but guess what, there aren’t any. I guess we’ll have to start recruiting from Europe. I wonder how long the European recruits will stay.
When my son was on patrol, he spent 80-90% of his time alone. When I asked him if he’d ever seen a cop do something illegal, he said—“I’ve seen them do some stupid things but nothing illegal”.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 You can google a hundred more examples.

Automatic handgun found at Sacramento, CA mass shooting | The Sacramento Bee (sacbee.com)
https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article260138775.html
Handguns-turned-automatic weapons a growing concern for California law enforcement (mercurynews.com)
https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/04/07/we-have-a-problem-on-our-hands-handguns-turned-automatic-weapons-a-growing-concern/

Eldakka (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

While I don’t have knowledge of or a citation to support what the poster you are replying to said, I can tell you that converting a semi-automatic firearm into a fully-automatic firearm is, in most cases, nearly trivial to do.

The way to look at it from a mechanical functioning perspective is that semi-automatic firearms are actually fully automatic firearms that have had a mechanism put into the workings of the firearm to prevent a subsequent shot from being fired while holding down the trigger. It usually involves a spring or a catch that is engaged to lock the cycling process after a single shot to prevent further shots from occurring. In many cases, this locking mechanism can be ‘broken’ with a flat file and 10 minutes work filing …

Cattress (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Basically rigging a bump stock, since they have been administratively “banned”? Something that pretty much everyone who didn’t have at least a hobbyist interest in guns had never heard of until the Vegas shooter. And something that really hasn’t been discussed since then, which I assume is because they are so infrequently used. I wonder if they are so infrequently used is because they don’t make hitting a target any easier or more accurate? Hmm, maybe that’s why the military only uses fully automatic function of their rifles as suppressive fire rather than to kill enemy combatants.
As someone with no military experience, no exposure to guns until I went shooting the first time with my hubby 7 years ago, and yet I’m not fooled by davec fear mongering.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 The return of the machine gun

Handguns-turned-automatic weapons a growing concern for California law enforcement (mercurynews.com)
https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/04/07/we-have-a-problem-on-our-hands-handguns-turned-automatic-weapons-a-growing-concern/

Auto Sears: The Return of the Machine Gun (thetrace.org)
https://www.thetrace.org/2022/03/auto-sear-gun-chip-glock-switch-automatic-conversion/

Bump stocks are for semi-automatic rifles and produce about 90 rounds in 10 seconds. “Glock switches” like the one used in the Sacramento massacre was for a handgun (Glock) and could fire 30 rounds in under a second.

What Is a Bump Stock and How Does It Work? – The New York Times (nytimes.com)
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/10/04/us/bump-stock-las-vegas-gun.html

Cattress (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

As barely a novice when it comes to guns, though very pro 2A, bump stocks are the term I’m familiar with. I just did a very cursory search to get an idea what Glock switches are, which is essentially the same purpose as the bump stock but for the most common semi handguns. People who, like me, grew up without any exposure to guns or gun owners, tend to scare easily our lack of knowledge leads us to ideas about gun control that aren’t effective at combatting violence.
During that cursory search I did see a lot of reports of an increasing number of modified guns and ease of accessing the tiny devices used for the mod. Outside of a few instances, like in Sacramento and the Boog boi who wrote boogaloo in his own blood on the trunk of a car, looks like fun crimes, ie murder, is still by and large done with regular semi automatic handguns.
And just as history has proven time and again, prohibition doesn’t work usually increases violence around the prohibited thing. Drugs, guns, prostitution, all made more dangerous by prohibition and over regulation. That’s not to say that I think we should eliminate laws against things murder and rape because they still occur, because those things always have a victim, where as drug use or prostitution can and do occur largely without any direct victims. (Sex work does not equal trafficking). Trying to regulate/eliminate tools used for criminal purposes doesn’t stop the crime. People just find new ways around the laws, which can also mean an increased risk tolerance. And when the risk of going to prison goes up, and supply is thereby artificially lowered, the profitability for those willing to take the risk goes up, and the motivation to use violence to succeed goes up.
How do you think the drug cartels came to be? People paying more for drugs they couldn’t make or grow or buy legally, which increased competition in a black market with no legitimate means to settle disputes. Territorial battles instead of basic storefronts, create a criminal hierarchy and blood feuds. Communities that have been pushed into margins, where legitimate business, personal wealth (home ownership), and the ability to climb out of poverty have been regulated out of possibility, foot soldiers are born out of necessity. Gang families form where blood families have been torn apart. Which brings everything back to the need to address the systemic racism caused by over a century of laws and regulations designed to regulate anyone not white, Christian, het, that doesn’t conform to traditional conservative values out of existence. Most of our social ills are the direct result of attempts to control the “others” (and lessers, like women, children, the elderly, the disabled). Even where attitudes have changed, we are born into fundamentally broken system that does not afford equal opportunity for all.

Lostinlodos (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Part of the issue is people trying to regulate away the weapons least likely to be used in gun crime. Rifles and shotguns make up a tiny percentage of criminal firearms discharge.

Don’t post links, I know there’s exceptions…
But you don’t mug someone or hold up a liquor store with rifle. You use a handgun.
If you want to reduce gun violence try targeting the most-used-for-violence guns. I doubt there’d be quite the backlash over it. 2a nuts will argue we should have rocket launchers. But the rifle and hunting users will likely remain silent if you. If not doing an outright ban.

Lostinlodos (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

You, said conservative voters, not I.
You also have the delusional view that every “conservative” has the same ideals.

I said as long as it is not an outright ban. Yes, I believe there’s enough support on both sides to pass steep restrictions on handguns.
I also recognise how quickly it would have a major impact on gun crime.

Banning semi-automatic rifles and large magazines would make zero impact on on gun crime. Zero change in whole percents.

nasch (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

You, said conservative voters, not I.

That’s right. You said there wouldn’t be a backlash, and I pointed out where the backlash would come from.

You also have the delusional view that every “conservative” has the same ideals.

You’re reading something into my comment that isn’t there.

Yes, I believe there’s enough support on both sides to pass steep restrictions on handguns.

From center-right to left, yes. But there is a sizeable and vocal contingent that will not accept any gun restrictions. Many of them are single issue primary voters. Good luck getting the Republican House members to vote for handgun controls.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

Guess who will simply ignore whatever laws you passed even if they were bipartisan and unanimous? The same people who are using guns to rob and murder. The same people who are modifying semi-automatics to automatics and the same people who are building ghost guns.

At this point there are more guns in the US than there are people and that’s not going to change. The safest way to coexist with guns was to try and force people to leave them home but that required proactive policing.

Cattress (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

Yes, I agree that more gun laws won’t change the behavior of criminals. However, they will affect lawful gun owners, turning some into lawbreakers, and put up barriers to legal gun ownership and pretty much always at a disproportionate effect on Black folks. Gun control was created specifically to disarm black communities, because of racist fears and goals. Don’t want black folks to vote, but the law says you have to? Terrorize them with lynch mobs and have armed groups “guard” the polls. When they dare stand up for themselves and fight back, well just make it illegal or impossible for certain people to own guns (word guns is interchangeable with the word “voting” in this context). How? Make it prohibitively expensive and time consuming (permit and licensing applications and fees, taxes, surcharges, fees added onto the purchase price, regulate who can sell guns, how many they can sell and how many dealers and guns can be sold in a geographic area, the manner in which guns are sold) Make requirements of expensive training and storage which also, can only be obtained through a heavily regulated (ie politically connected) sources. Make it very easy to lose gun rights, but impossible or nearly so to get them back (again, voting is also applicable) and then have the the original slave catchers, union busters, enforcers of racist laws and most unaccountable form of government next to the prison system be in charge of who is a candidate for losing that right. And the thing is, it doesn’t matter if the person advocating for gun control, against drugs or sex work, is doing so with the purest intentions, the way they will be enforced is always going to against the most marginalized people with the least means to fight back. Blacks and whites use drugs at similar rates, yet Blacks are arrested at much higher rates and receive much longer prison sentences. Black people are pulled over more often, were stopped and frisked more, yet were less likely to have an weapon than whites. Places with more gun laws do not have lower crime rates (nor is the converse true) because these laws do nothing to address the driving factors like poverty, economic inequality. Gun control and more cops are lazy thinking and easy buzzwords (it’s the kind of shit that got Trump elected, someone suggesting tough guy easy to understand solutions that the masses can feel smart when they hear someone else say it)
Ideas like background checks and red flag laws seem like good common sense regulations. But we all need to recognize that government is a massive machine, with dysfunctional parts, with neglected parts, where maintenance of information systems has been given about as much funding and attention as lead leaching water lines and crumbling bridges. Florida can’t tell you how much you owe so you can pay and get your right to vote back. NY can’t seem to create a searchable inventory of seized (forfeited) assets for multiple millions of dollars to pay for it. The military failed to report an incredibly violent man to NICS who went on to massacre a church. Kids who are aging out of foster care can’t get their own damn birth certificate so they can get ID because the necessary information was never gotten or preserved when they entered. Cops show up at the wrong house, arrest people with similar names who otherwise don’t match any known details of a suspect.
The most accurate predictor of violence is poverty. That doesn’t mean that the poor lack values, judgement, or intelligence, or that they need more supervision, control, or policing. It means that they lack access to the tools and resources and opportunities that are needed to create stability. And that is so much more difficult to create truly meaningful change, especially since most people think poor people (which is a kind of euphemism for Black) are lacking morally or intellectually and require supervision (policing), and many or most whites are not willing to accept that we are not a post racial society, reparations are necessary (and will ultimately help everyone because racism squanders economic opportunity; also must be made to Native Americans) and that anyone fighting diversity is a complete moron.
Techdirt talks a lot about bad legislation that solves nothing (or makes things worse) and is often for the purpose of doing “something”. Some problems don’t have easy answers. Prohibiting things, be it encryption, drugs, guns, will always cause the most harm to marginalized people. It always creates more danger, and opportunities for bad actors to exploit desperation.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Handguns-turned-automatic weapons a growing concern for California law enforcement (mercurynews.com)
https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/04/07/we-have-a-problem-on-our-hands-handguns-turned-automatic-weapons-a-growing-concern/

Auto Sears: The Return of the Machine Gun (thetrace.org)
https://www.thetrace.org/2022/03/auto-sear-gun-chip-glock-switch-automatic-conversion/

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Nobody in this forum would give the police the benefit of the doubt

I will give them a benefit of the doubt when they’ve been in a situation that deserves said benefit.

In the US you have a million gang members playing war in the streets of our cities. Many of them are now carrying their guns with them everywhere. Many of those guns have been modified to be fully automatic.

[citations needed]

You would think the police would be empowered to do something about that, but since 89% of those gang members aren’t white, the police are labeled racist if they do crackdown.

Crackdowns on gangs are generally fine. Crackdowns on Black people merely being together in a group somewhere are not. The problem comes when the cops think both situations are the same.

I guess we’ll have to start recruiting from Europe. I wonder how long the European recruits will stay.

Probably not long, given how European policing isn’t anywhere near as openly violent and destructive.

When my son was on patrol, he spent 80-90% of his time alone. When I asked him if he’d ever seen a cop do something illegal, he said—“I’ve seen them do some stupid things but nothing illegal”.

Your son is lying to save his ass from his fellow “brothers in blue”.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

I will give them a benefit of the doubt when they’ve been in a situation that deserves said benefit.

Saying you’ll give someone the benefit of the doubt is essentially shorthand for saying you’re willing to trust that there’s a good explanation for something they did/said that would otherwise be damning for them and much like other forms of trust when it’s violated, especially if it’s violated repeatedly, it ceases to be reasonable to extend it until and unless they demonstrate that they are once more worthy of it.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Your son is lying to save his ass from his fellow “brothers in blue”.

I’d not even go so far as to assume that his son is lying, but where davec is being scummy is putting the blame on people angry at police brutality – because they’re the ones inconveniencing his son.

davec claims that “nobody hates bad cops more than good cops”, but his reactions don’t gel with that. His outrage isn’t levied at bad cops, it’s at people reacting as a result of bad cops. His solution isn’t better training for cops, it’s claiming that none of it matters anyway.

His son might not be lying, but based on his reactions and decisions, it’s very hard to believe his claim that he thinks good cops are the ones who hate bad cops the most. It’s very clear that given a choice between bad cops and the people reacting to bad cops, davec would rather hate the latter.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

davec claims that “nobody hates bad cops more than good cops”, but his reactions don’t gel with that.

His reactions and rather more importantly I’d say reality itself.

If that claim really was true, that the biggest enemy of bad cops were good cops, then there would be a hell of a lot less of the former because the latter would be constantly and consistently calling them out when they abuse their power, making clear to the public that while those other officers may have a badge they are not supported by the ‘good cops’ on the force who don’t consider rights and lives ‘optional’ when it comes to non-cops.

That however does not seem to be the case(at least in the US) so either the number of good cops is vanishingly small and their protests against corrupt officers are drowned out or they don’t actually care as much about the ‘bad cops’ as some might have people believe.

Lostinlodos (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 bad apples

There was a really good editorial some time ago by a Doctor about the American industry. I can’t remember the source but the title was along the lines of “How to stop hospitals from killing us”
As I’ve said before my family is mostly medical of one level or another, and military.
And everything he said was absolutely spot on truth.

The premise of don’t speak is not acceptance. At leat not in most cases.
It’s survival.
Saving your job.
Saving your career.
And when dealing with bad cops, saving your life and the life of your loved ones.

Do you want to be the one to snitch an a bad actor with a gun and access to the evidence lockers?

Cattress (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

It’s not snitching, it is doing the moral, ethical, and legally right thing.
That said, it’s fair to acknowledge a legitimate fear of speaking up. The Intercept has a great, very long article from 5 years or so ago, that tells what happened when 2 cops in Chicago spoke up.
But that fear or real danger doesn’t excuse ignoring criminal cops. If you have have any moral fiber, you at minimum quit the job. Otherwise you are complicent, an apple spoiled by the rottens.
And I acknowledge that not all police departments are structured so that officers would necessarily be exposed to bad acts of other officers. But if you want me to buy this idea that not all officers are the same, to then you need to buy into the idea that not every suspect or person interacting with the police is the same and some how motivated to cause physical harm, or fabricate a lie against an officer. Officers are corruptible human beings like everyone else. If you think every suspect complaining of unreasonable force or worse, is lying to save his own ass, you have to realize that cops can and will do the same thing. Good character is not a unique trait possessed by law enforcement at some significantly higher concentration than the rest of the population. Cops are human beings, not super heroes. I can accept that they will make mistakes, some that will be fatal to another human being. I can accept that not every situation is cut and dry, that some times there are no good options. I understand that there are racist intents behind the laws they bound to enforce. But I’ll be damned if I’m going to be a reasonable person when cops and their criminal unions fight every attempt at the barest minimum of accountability, guardrails for what is acceptable use of force, changes to racist laws, improved training focused on de-escalation tooth and nail. The Bill of Rights lays out the rules the government is bound to, the things the founders had suffered under the monarchy. Yet some how cops, ie the government, some how get their own personal bill of rights in some states, that essentially supercede the legitimate Bill of Rights. The fuck if I have any reason to give cops any benefit of the doubt when they rig the system in their favor.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

You obviously know the story of my son and the Black guy in the wheelchair. Was my son a good cop or a bad cop? Was Kim Potter a good cop or a bad cop? Garrett Rolfe spoke with Rayshard Brooks for 40 minutes before he wound up on his ass and made a split-second decision that took Brooks life. Was Rolfe a good cop or a bad cop? As I explained before my son patrolled by himself 80-90% of the time, how was he going to monitor the other patrolmen?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

As I explained before my son patrolled by himself 80-90% of the time, how was he going to monitor the other patrolmen?

He didn’t have to. All he needed to do was stand up and be the mythical “good cop” whenever he saw a cop abuse their power and authority.

How many times did he ever stand against, instead of behind, the Thin Blue Line? How many times did he rat out a cop he’d seen do some shady bullshit? For what reason should we believe your son was a “good cop” instead of, at best, a neutral one?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11

How do you propose, then, that black people, brown people, homeless people, women, etc. monitor 80% to 90% of the people in their community to weed out the bad actors to assuage your biases and assumptions? Do they need to point said bad actors out to you?

You seem to place a lot of emphasis on this imagined scenario where people are personally holding your son responsible for George Floyd, that if we celebrate Derek Chauvin’s arrest it means we want to murder your son. Get over yourself, and your self-victimization fantasy.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

Well, if you are of the same 1312 mindset as Stephen Stoned then all cops are bad. End of thought. Full stop and despite the question marks at the end of your sentence you aren’t looking for answers, so I won’t provide you with any.

If on the other hand you can see that demonizing an entire group of people based on the actions of one is no more valid than racism, misogyny, or any other bias then maybe you could understand why I would speak out against it.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:15

You entered this forum to say that anyone who enjoyed Chauvin’s conviction was bad, and should feel bad.

It’s not hard to read up your comment history.

You can keep trying to gaslight the answer you want out of me to convince yourself that I’m a rapist and a murderer. It won’t work.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:17

When you keep asking if anyone thinks your son was a bastard cop on articles about cops misbehaving – and, on very rare occasions, encountering consequences as a result of said misbehaving – it sounds very much like you’re trying to build up a narrative to something. Given your consistent attempts to push the point, I think it’s fair to make some informed assumptions about what you want out of all this.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

You’re the 1312 bitch that believes all cops are bad

“All Cops Are Bastards” doesn’t mean what it literally says. It’s shorthand for the corruption of modern policing⁠—to point out how the institution makes a point of punishing “good cops” far more than it punishes “bad cops”. That system makes sure “good cops” either don’t stay on the force or don’t stay “good” for long.

The police don’t want accountability. You don’t seem to think they need it. Other than your son, I’m left to wonder why.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

Apparently, you guys say a lot of stuff that you don’t mean. Defund doesn’t mean defund and “all cops are bastards” doesn’t mean all cops are bastards” yet when you talk with your like-minded, I’m sure you take it all literally.

The same goes for your knowledge of police and policing. You make absurd comments that you know nothing about and your like- minded take them literally. My son has been a cop for over 23 years and none of your evaluation is remotely applicable to him, his department or the vast-vast majority of cops.

There is accountability and then there is collective punishment. Kim Potter made a mistake that took a life just like doctors and nurses do every day. She was sent to prison because of the collective punishment directed at cops. Garret Rolfe is facing the death penalty because of the collective punishment. Cops should be held accountable for illegal actions whether they are on duty or off but just like doctors and nurses, consideration needs to be given for the position they are put in. Without that consideration neither policing nor the medical profession will continue to provide the service we demand.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:13

My son has been a cop for over 23 years and none of your evaluation is remotely applicable to him, his department or the vast-vast majority of cops.

Is he under arrest? No. Is he under investigation? No. Is he at risk of the death penalty or imprisonment? No. Is anyone calling for his murder? No.

This is about Chauvin, but you keep wanting to make it about your son. The latter half of your post is the sad tired copypasta you’re hoping can guilt everyone into feeling bad about celebrating Chauvin’s conviction.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:15

Chauvin is just the prism that the author and many of you here see cops through

So, yes, thanks for indicating once again, you’re angry about people reacting to and celebrating Chauvin’s arrest.

This article isn’t about your son, either. It’s about cops who lie. But you feel the need to rise to their defense. Curious, that.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Ah what the hell, I’ve got a few minutes to waste this morning I guess…

You obviously know the story of my son and the Black guy in the wheelchair.

Oh I read it, and assuming you were accurately telling the story your son handled it about as badly as possible short of beating the guy to death.

Was Kim Potter a good cop or a bad cop?

The person who was at best so grossly incompetent that they mistook a gun for a taser and left someone dead because of it? If you can’t figure out which end of the spectrum they’re on that’s kinda on you.

Here’s the thing, your ‘But my son!’ shtick is a completely and utterly meaningless red herring. Even if they were one of the mythical ‘Good Cops’ bringing them up does fuck all to address the overall points.

I will and have freely admit that there are good cops in the force(who tend to become ex-good cops one way or another) but their existence does not magically wash away all the corrupt and worse cops or address my point about how reality itself disproves your assertion that no-one hates bad cops more than good cops.

Either address the point or admit that your claim is unsupported by the evidence, repeatedly throwing out red herrings just exposes a dishonest refusal to do either and is why I don’t usually bother with anything you post.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

I repeat the story of my son and the Black guy where it is applicable. It illustrates that despite the best of intentions bad things can happen in policing. I could quote the judge at Kim Potter’s sentencing.

“Officer Kimberly Potter was trying to do the right thing. Of all the jobs in public service, police officers have the most difficult one. They must make snap decisions under tense evolving and ever-changing circumstances. They risk their lives every single day in public service. Officer Potter made a mistake that ended tragically,”

While I may have underestimated your hatred you weren’t pelted with rocks, bottles and shit for what Chauvin did. You’re not serving prison time for a mistake like Kim Potter is because of what Chauvin did. You’re not facing 1st degree murder charges and possible death penalty for a split-second decision like Garrett Rolf because of what Chauvin did. You haven’t been demonized to your child because of what Chauvin did. Chauvin didn’t undo all the respect and good deeds you’ve done. You are free to hate Chauvin with all of your might because none of that reflects back on to you. It costs you nothing but the cops pay the price and have far more reason to hate what Chauvin did than you.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

Officer Potter made a mistake that ended tragically

She mistook her firearm for a taser. That’s one hell of a whoopsie-daisy.

Chauvin didn’t undo all the respect and good deeds you’ve done.

You think this is only about Derek Chauvin? No, son. This is about decades of police brutality and misconduct going underreported, underprosecuted, and underpunished⁠—even in the “we can film cops killing people and put it on YouTube” era. People are getting sick of seeing cops get away with murder (figuratively and literally).

The police can earn back their respect when they can act in the best interests of the average citizen instead of the cops (and the wealthiest/most politically powerful citizens) more often than not. Until then? 1312, and don’t you fucking forget it.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:12

You think this is only about Derek Chauvin? No, son

Even if this wasn’t only about Derek Chauvin, it’s worth noting that what started davec off was, in fact, Derek Chauvin’s conviction. And even then, he wasn’t angry about Derek Chauvin, or the effect that Derek Chauvin’s actions would have on the general reputation of cops.

From the get go, davec’s complaint has been over people who look at Derek Chauvin and made opinions about it. That’s who he’s angry with, not Derek Chauvin. To him, Derek Chauvin could easily have been his son dealing with an unruly black man, so he’d rather protect the guy kneeling on someone else for nine minutes straight.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11 Get off the cross, other people need the wood

Yes yes, it’s all the fault of that one cop who got caught murdering someone on camera as several other officers stood by and watched, were it not for him people wouldn’t have any reason to be pissed at cops at all…

Ditch the persecution complex and dishonest framing, it’s not fooling anyone.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11

cops pay the price and have far more reason to hate what Chauvin did than you

Is your anger at us supposed to compensate for that? Hint: it doesn’t. All it does is convince everyone that there are somehow people like you who think cops need to be handled with kid gloves when they mess up like goofing on a warrant or shooting the family pet.

Lostinlodos (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

The person who was at best so grossly incompetent that they mistook a gun for a taser and left someone dead because of it? If you can’t figure out which end of the spectrum they’re on that’s kinda on you.

Have you ever held them both? In the heat of action a mistake is not unreasonable.

We can argue about carrying elsewhere. She had both. And grabbed the wrong one.
Until you have held both, you have zero ability to make a reasonable statement on it. It’s your right to do so, but it’s unqualified and incompetent.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

They were apparently on opposite sides of the body and if tasers are shaped, weighted and have trigger setups similar to a gun something has gone horribly wrong in their design. Whether they are not not however that she still got the wrong one means mistake or not that’s someone who has/had no business being armed.

Lostinlodos (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

They were apparently on opposite sides of the body

I’m not aware in this case. They usually are but not always and there’s some dumb discretion in setup.

something has gone horribly wrong in their design.

Things are changing slowly. But yes. And I’ve always pointed out the stupidity of weighting them “so they feel and can be aimed the same”.

As someone who’s faced it: if you’ve got ver even trained for battle, let alone been in one… fog of war and battlefield haze are not random terms. In tense moments and facing life or death of yourself and partners; mistakes happen. And keep in mind a car makes an impressive multi-thousand-pound weapon.

She was railroaded because of the timing. This was a good, well respected, officer who made a terrible mistake.
Unlike the badge buddies who kill for sport. Because they can.
Nobody is saying that killer cops are not a problem. Even out posting father here.

Some of us recognise a few side effects to this series of events though. Persecution of the majority for the tiny handful isn’t good for anyone.

Lostinlodos (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

seeing the entire tree as rotten starts to become a lot more reasonable.

Sadly I actually generally agree with you. Remove “a lot” and I agree completely. But there’s layers here, explained in the hospital article I pointed to.

Bad apples need to be tossed out.
But like sharps, in a way that’s safe.
Sticking one in the trash can come back to hurt you if not done properly. Or others!

Cattress (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

I’m pretty sure there has been significant comparison of the weight and feel of holding gun versus a taser. Kind seems like it would be incredibly reckless for the taser company to not make distinguishable feel to the handle of the taser from that of a gun.
Also, right and left, there are standard positions of which side the gun and taser go.
That’s why she got convicted.
Also, the initial stop was pretextual, the rookie she was training said so when describing why he was pulling the kid over. She escalated the situation, she could have put some distance between her and the kid, ordered him out of the car and onto the ground, produced a copy of his warrant for the missed court date to explain to this kid exactly why he was being arrested since he was clearly confused and upset about why he was being pulled over and subsequently arrested. Just a minimum understanding and empathy for someone obviously scared and confused.
And for fucks sake, let Brooks go! No need to get into an altercation, let the man run. They had all his info and his car;catch him another day.
Another case of a black man shot in the back of the head for some bullshit vehicle tags traffic stop in MI or MN I think, a use of force expert said that while he needed to examine more evidence to give a final opinion, there was no reason to chase after the man for running from the car.
It happens time and again, cops chase somebody down and slaughter them for no other reason than contempt of cop for making them run. Like Freddy Grey in Baltimore, he ran after supposedly making eye contact with a bike cop! That’s it, ran because he saw some cops, wound up being tossed in a van and given a rough ride to death. For fucks sake stop chasing people who aren’t clearly a threat.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

You seem like an intelligent lady, it’s hard to believe you would accept and repeat the simplistic explanations given in the Freddy Grey case.
As far as Potter and Rolfe the judge put it nicely

Of all the jobs in public service, police officers have the most difficult one. They must make snap decisions under tense evolving and ever-changing circumstances. They risk their lives every single day in public service. Officer Potter made a mistake that ended tragically.

Cattress (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

It’s been some times since I read the details of Grey’s case, so I could be a bit fuzzy. But I seem to recall that it was the bike cop that decided to chase him because Grey turned and hauled ass the other way when he saw the cops. His record was kinda lengthy, but no serious harm to others like murder, rape, and I don’t think armed robbery/hold up type of crime. He was a young guy, though he was asthmatic (which is more common in city neighborhoods that lack green space and trees, one of those long term effects of city planning with racist intentions from generations before us). If I remember correctly he was having some trouble breathing, probably in relation to running, which he was allowed to do because there was no probable cause to demand that he stop and chat with those cops. He was denied his request to get, or have a family member bring out his inhaler. I don’t believe there was any dispute about how they tossed this young man into the back of the paddy wagon without securing him in place with a seatbelt, as was protocol. Another person in the van I believe said he heard Gray say he couldn’t breathe. At some point on the excessively long ride (I do remember the route looked like little Jeffy’s day in a Family Circus cartoon), he was checked on. I don’t know if that was before or after the neck injury, but obviously they didn’t secure him at that time either, leaving him cuffed behind his back. It didn’t likely matter that he complained of trouble breathing, we hear cops all the time acting like they are qualified to determine someone’s medical condition because they refuse to believe that a medical emergency could actually occur during an arrest, it can only be a lie in their opinion. (Speaking of, pretty disturbing story of cops tasering a teenager while she was having an epileptic seizure, and later her mother who came rushing to the scene when called, causing her to urinate on herself in public. Or the woman experiencing a diabetic attack, during a traffic stop, and for anyone that doesn’t know, when a Type 1 diabetic sugar has dropped dangerously low, they lose control over their physical and mental faculties, it’s very scary to witness, but easy to recognize and needs immediate treatment, which gets more difficult the more combative they become, the longer treatment is delayed. Obviously for a cop with no training or experience in this type of emergency, you can see how fast violence is used, but voluntary compliance is impossible to give) Anyway, Grey arrived at the precinct or jail and he had broken neck. Not really anything anyone can argue. Even the bullshit excuse that the protocol to secure people in transport in seatbelts being new doesn’t fly for someone like me, it’s inexcusable that it’s even necessary to formally make it a rule since the cops are responsible for the safety of those they transport. They don’t cooperate with getting belted in, then you wait until they do. Good time to work on de-escalation, talk to the person like a human being. Stop acting like people are only being difficult just to fuck up your day.

Lostinlodos (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

The Grey case is a prime example of what happens when charges are emotional and not actually relevant.

Had they gone with realistic charges those involved would likely had been found guilty.
Simplistically we have reckless endangerment and involuntary manslaughter.

More aggressively there’s room for false imprisonment, kidnapping.

The only legitimate reasoning for protest in that case was the stupidity of not filing charges based in reality.

Lostinlodos (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

I’ve trained with, used, and been shot with, all three levels of standard electric projectile weapons. The kind civilians can get their hands on legally are kind of pointless, or over Aggrandising and cause confrontations that would have been avoided. And in reality for many, including myself, a jolt is just going to piss them off. Though some are discharge adjustable, generally police tasers aren’t much stronger. But I’ll come back to that.
Military equipment is made to be as light as possible. They’re usually 12-18 ounces depending on design: but all are considerably lighter than any handgun.
Sadly in a drive to streamline training law enforcement tasers are usually weighted and the grips smaller than military or consumer versions.anyone who thought that was a good idea is a fool. Not only that but the idea of less lethal making them practically useless and many encounters. And a suspect that doesn’t go down… it becomes a reason to shoot them.
It’s a rough estimate but from the large volume of bodycam footage I’ve watched I’d guesstimate they work about half the time. Not really good odds.

Flight is a crime.
Like you I don’t think it should be. But as long as the laws exist the crime exists. And the cops will chase.

Cattress (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

I know flight is a crime. And I don’t want to see officers killed any more than suspects (and there are some horrible, horrible examples of both that challenge my stance against the death penalty) That’s why officers should be stepping back, making commands from a distance, give a reminder that choosing to run is only going to make their problem worse and complying ensures that no one gets hurt during this encounter. Let people who are not clearly a threat to others run. Use technology the right way; deploy drones to an area to search for a dangerous suspect (as I have no doubt they have more drones strategically placed or doing illegal surveillance that could be called into an actual legitimate purpose) or call a team to look through all those cameras they have access to. Don’t make the situation a heat of battle moment, they can be caught later. And in the heat of real battle (which is what occurs with enemies of your country, which you are a formal member of the military and not applicable to the encounters between the police and non police because they are not in the military,it’s not a fucking battlefield, and it’s a damn mindset that creates the idea of us vs them and dehumanizes people the cops deal with) mistakes are not acceptable nor tolerated. That’s why the military trains so hard, to prevent mistakes that happen when process isn’t basically second nature. Cops are creating the chaos and uncertain situations that put themselves in danger and it shouldn’t be acceptable protocol.
If tasers are not effective in gaining compliance, or being misused (which I was just reading how they aren’t really supposed to be used so close because you can’t aim in a way get a good latch with the prongs) then get better equipment, training or ditch them. Just like body cameras falling off or being activated/deactivated “conveniently” timed so that important moments are missed, are also the simplest of solutions; attach cameras with loops sewn into uniforms and Velcro straps, make them activate when their patrol car door opens and unable to be shut off until they are back inside and recording equipment inside the vehicle activates. They should be just as accountable for how they spend every minute of the day as anyone working in a call center or Amazon; they can have an app or icon on their computer to log time in the restroom for their own privacy, to log start and end times for each encounter with a citizen, which would make reviews by supervisors and requests for footage much easier to locate. And the software to constantly and securely monitor employees is abundant.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Missing from that story was any mention of trying to get voluntary co-operation. It read like get assistance and go straight to physical constraint. That show lack of knowledge or training on how to seal with people suffering from mental problems, including drug induced problems.

I have watched Scottish police deal with someone that was obviously psychotic, ranting and waving a sword at thing only they could see. They calmly approached, with both remaining in view, and over a few minutes talked that person into giving them the sword, and getting into the back of the police car, whereon they transported them to hospital. Note, truncheons and handcuffs remained in their belt holsters, and the felt no need to search the person either.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

A million gang members and fewer than 700,000 outgunned cops.

The Sacramento massacre was a gang fight involving a modified Glock that could fire 30 rounds in under a second. In Portland gang members practiced their drive-bys and sometimes the police would recover more than a hundred casings. From 1960 to 1990 homicides per year quadrupled mostly because of gang warfare and that was before gangs started using a “switch” that changes a semi auto to a full auto.

What happens when a gang graduates to a cartel? I guess we’ll see.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

“From 1960 to 1990 homicides per year quadrupled” was from an article I read that I should have verified. From 1960 to 1980 the murder rate doubled. It didn’t start going down until the mid 90’s when they started doing proactive policing.

United States Crime Rates 1960 t0 2019 (disastercenter.com)
https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Nothing against the fourth amendment, but what constitutes unreasonable and are you willing to bet your home and your child’s future on the vagaries of political interpretation? We’ve had the fourth amendment for almost a quarter of a millennium and now supposedly we can just shut the door and go back to beating our wives and then sue the police if they try and prevent that?

Scary Devil Monastery (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

“Nothing against the fourth amendment, but…”

Full Stop. A constitutional amendment isn’t optional and where the line is drawn has been extensively explored.

You’re straw manning, moving the goal posts, and flat-out lying. As usual whenever the topic of police officers finding they’ve crossed the line comes up.

Because what the OP refers to is malicious prosecution where what the officers got slammed for was because they stuck the homeowner with a phony charge despite him being innocent of any malfeasance.

And this is what you object to.

I think the US might not be the country for you given the way you think. Try China or Russia where the view of “civic rights” is more up your alley.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

The question is, what is reasonable and what is unreasonable? Some might consider it unreasonable for the police to demand to see the spouse in a domestic violence call while others would consider it their duty. Slamming the door in the officer’s face might be considered an obstruction of the investigation while some will claim the officer had no right to investigate at all.

Things are changing and cops are caught in the middle and vulnerable.

If you don’t want them to investigate, then don’t send them. If you want them to have a warrant, then provide it to them before you send them. If you want them to call off the investigation if the person doesn’t cooperate, then tell them. If you want them to get a search warrant after the person obstructs their investigation, then tell them to stay or go while waiting for a judge to issue a warrant.
How do they handle it in Europe?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

How do they handle it in Europe?

Maybe they hire cops that aren’t so fucking simple-minded?

I mean, maybe if US cops weren’t so fucking stupid, and actually were cognizant of the laws they’re enforcing, there wouldn’t be such a problem.

I’m just not understanding how ignorance of the law is no excuse, unless you’re a cop. That seems odd, no?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Some might consider it unreasonable for the police to demand to see the spouse in a domestic violence call

Those people would likely be the ones abusing their spouses.

Slamming the door in the officer’s face might be considered an obstruction of the investigation while some will claim the officer had no right to investigate at all.

That’s why search warrants exist: If a cop has a reasonable suspicion of a crime having taken place, they can ask for a warrant to continue investigating. A refusal to cooperate with the police might be a red flag. It shouldn’t be the only reason the police ask for a warrant.

Things are changing and cops are caught in the middle and vulnerable.

Change is scary. Change can get messy in a lot of ways. If the cops don’t like change, they can fuck off. We can then let people who want to improve policing replace the cowards.

How do they handle it in Europe?

I bet they don’t see the violation of civil rights as standard operating procedure.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

“Change is scary. Change can get messy in a lot of ways.” But not for you. You’re the one demanding cops pay for the change and the mess but the cops (and their spouses) are increasingly saying the price is too high. You want the cops to make split second life and death decisions amid the change and mess and if you don’t like the video then send them to prison all the while with visions of Chauvin on your mind.

“If the cops don’t like change, they can fuck off. We can then let people who want to improve policing replace the cowards.”

And who would that be? Certainly not you!

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

You’re the one demanding cops pay for the change

I’m asking for cops to start respecting the civil rights of all the people they’re paid to serve⁠—and be held accountable when they don’t. If the price of losing the ability to violate civil rights with impunity is too high for a cop, that’s their problem, not mine.

You want the cops to make split second life and death decisions amid the change and mess and if you don’t like the video then send them to prison all the while with visions of Chauvin on your mind.

I want cops to make better decisions that don’t rely on violence as the first and only resort. I want cops held accountable for their actions when they fuck up. If that means trials like Derek Chauvin’s, so be it. If that means lawsuits where qualified immunity is off the table, so be it.

We should hold police to a higher standard than the average person. They’re given the power to enforce the law⁠—and to kill people. That power should have both limits and accountability. Thinking otherwise is the thinking of a fascist.

And who would that be? Certainly not you!

Yes, that’s right⁠—I would never work for a law enforcement agency. 1312, bitch.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Some might consider it unreasonable for the police to demand to see the spouse in a domestic violence call while others would consider it their duty. Slamming the door in the officer’s face might be considered an obstruction of the investigation while some will claim the officer had no right to investigate at all.

Things are changing and cops are caught in the middle and vulnerable.

If you don’t want them to investigate, then don’t send them. If you want them to have a warrant, then provide it to them before you send them. If you want them to call off the investigation if the person doesn’t cooperate, then tell them. If you want them to get a search warrant after the person obstructs their investigation, then tell them to stay or go while waiting for a judge to issue a warrant.

Just curious, how do you want them to handle domestic violence calls or do you?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

how do you want them to handle domestic violence calls

Based on your status quo, a domestic violence call would be handled by a team of cops arriving at your doorstep, having identified the wrong house, then based on the fact that you personally own a gun which you admitted to, gives them ground to claim “I feared for my life” and gun down your wife in a hail of bullets. Given your fear that cops would all abandon the job, you would then not allowed to express anger, grief, or desire to legally pursue them for their “split second mistake”. And you would be okay with this.

Anonymous Coward says:

No Take-Backsies

Interesting to note the similarities between this situation, and typical patent & copyright troll activities.

File a baseless legal action against someone, then as soon as someone realizes they might actually fight back, drop it before it actually goes to court.

Obviously, there’s a world of difference between civil lawsuits and criminal prosecution, and this won’t directly affect them. But I wonder if this might soon be used as an extra nudge towards new or improved anti-SLAPP statutes and similar measures.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

davec (profile) says:

Al Sharpton goes off on 'limousine liberals,

Al Sharpton goes off on ‘limousine liberals,’ DC ‘elites’ ignoring crime: They ‘don’t live in the real world’ (msn.com)
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/al-sharpton-goes-off-on-limousine-liberals-dc-elites-ignoring-crime-they-don-t-live-in-the-real-world/ar-AAW6kJS?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=4d4056fe4f7c4e41b0433ca5d4194d47

Yeah, I’m a little confused by this too. I thought police were just “slave catchers”? Occupiers of Black and Brown communities. Now they want more cops in Black and Brown communities and a crackdown on crime when nobody wants to be a cop anymore. I’m waiting for all those who have been attacking the police for the last 2 years to say “just joking” even though it will take this country 10 years to recover from their joke.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Yea-ah-No says:

Damned if they do and damned if they don't.

@Davec

You are missing a few things here, or you are just a boot licker.

No one is saying the police can not investigate. In fact in most cases with screwed up charges that is something the police don’t do well if at all.

Send the police, investigate as well as they can. Talk to the crazy baby sitter, that BTW was not in the apartment, but was the caller.

Or better yet come back with a warrant after talking to the baby sitter and child services and a judge. Shouldn’t take long. CPS people are on call 24/7 as well as judges to issue warrants over the phone.

With that warrant if the guy still doesn’t open THEN the police can bust down the door if they want. AND since they now have a legal reason to be in the place if the guy gets physical in anyway, then sure, take him in for obstructing.

Unlike in this case where the police had no valid legal reason to bust in. And then of course he made the cops work hard, and didn’t bow down to them, so they had to charge the guy with something very contempt-of-cop-ish.

Hell even the DA knew the charges from the cops were BS, otherwise they would have moved forward with the case.

So please, drop the crap about who is to blame if if and when X or Y or Z happens. This ruling is not about any of that. The case is about the old saying “You might beat the rap, but you can beat the ride.” It is time for it to end that cops can ruin someone’s life without probable cause. And for some people, getting an arrest on your record is just that even when the charges are tossed out later.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

davec (profile) says:

Re:

What I am is a 70-year-old Vietnam era veteran with two children in law enforcement whose spouses are (or were) in law enforcement.

Most of the time people who have nothing to hide cooperate with the police so when they don’t, red flags go up and that is why they more or less forced entry. So from now on, sue the police if they do that and they’ll simply walk away—“he wouldn’t let us in” or they will return to the police station get a warrant and return—hopefully the people wouldn’t have left. Same procedure for all domestic violence calls until they become pointless.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Rocky says:

Re: Re:

If you are a vet, you should know what happens to someone in the service that doesn’t follow procedure and violates the UCMJ.

Why do you think it’s different when it comes to cops? Aren’t they supposed to follow the law and established procedures when doing their jobs? Or are you of the opinion that the law and established procedures is something they should ignore?

You know what we call those ignoring and breaking the law – criminals, even if they happen to be the police.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

The cops weren’t prosecuted because they weren’t perceived to have violated the law at the time. This new interpretation of the law puts them at risk so now how do the cops proceed? Do they get a warrant before answering a 911 call? Do they get a warrant on the way to a 911 call? Do they have a judge on the phone when they go to the door? According to the new interpretation of the law, would the judge be held liable for issuing a warrant that resulted in charges being dropped?

If you were in the cops’ shoes and you heard the child screaming, would you walk away without checking on the child?

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

I’ve previously proposed that davec should not get angry if, on the basis that he owns a gun, the cops bust down his door and kills his wife after they get the wrong house. davec is against all consequences for cops even when they make mistakes, because being liable for them means cops won’t want to be cops anymore.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Let me ask you too.

The question is, what is reasonable and what is unreasonable? Some might consider it unreasonable for the police to demand to see the spouse in a domestic violence call while others would consider it their duty. Slamming the door in the officer’s face might be considered an obstruction of the investigation while some will claim the officer had no right to investigate at all.

Things are changing and cops are caught in the middle and vulnerable.

If you don’t want them to investigate, then don’t send them. If you want them to have a warrant, then provide it to them before you send them. If you want them to call off the investigation if the person doesn’t cooperate, then tell them. If you want them to get a search warrant after the person obstructs their investigation, then tell them to stay or go while waiting for a judge to issue a warrant.

Just curious, how do you want them to handle domestic violence calls or do you?

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

Wyrm (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 if criminals don't have rights, neither do you.

The cops weren’t prosecuted because they weren’t perceived to have violated the law at the time.

Wrong, they were not prosecuted because the bar for filing a complaint against them was too high, regardless of their guilt. This SCOTUS decision lowered the bar so they can now be prosecuted. Now that they can be, do you change your mind and think they certainly haven’t violated the law? If not, you’re a hypocrite.

Also, there is no mention of a baby screaming. Do you have a source that says something different? A screaming baby might constitute “exigent circumstances”. (Though this might be a bit of a stretch. Babies are not widely known for their silence.) There was none here. There was dubious accusation from a third-party, which was likely enough to get a warrant, not enough for a warrantless search. The prosecutor for this guys’ case (not the case against the cops) decided to drop the case because he knew all this.

Now, you want to defend cops being able to ignore people’s rights on the flimsiest pretext. You don’t believe in any constitutional protection because some criminals might escape justice… or delay it for an hour or two.
Then, don’t pretend to support law enforcement if you don’t believe in them following the law. Assume that you like an authoritarian force without check to their power.

I’ll repeat this because it bears repeating: if criminals don’t have rights, neither do you.
If you believe cops must be allowed any intrusion at any time of the day or night, for example because you’re holding a baby crying from a tooth ache and you feel a bit cranky from lack of sleep, then you believe you can be subjected to it too.
Or maybe you simply don’t believe in equal protection under the law. You deserve not to be maliciously prosecuted because you are better than other suspects. I wonder why you would think that. 😕

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Let me also ask you.

The question is, what is reasonable and what is unreasonable? Some might consider it unreasonable for the police to demand to see the spouse in a domestic violence call while others would consider it their duty. Slamming the door in the officer’s face might be considered an obstruction of the investigation while some will claim the officer had no right to investigate at all.

As you pointed out, the bar has been lowered. Things are changing and cops are caught in the middle and vulnerable.

If you don’t want them to investigate, then don’t send them. If you want them to have a warrant, then provide it to them before you send them. If you want them to call off the investigation if the person doesn’t cooperate, then tell them. If you want them to get a search warrant after the person obstructs their investigation, then tell them to stay or go while waiting for a judge to issue a warrant.

Just curious, how do you want them to handle domestic violence calls or do you?

Wyrm (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

You’re disingenuous here.

First, the bar has been lowered for “malicious prosecution” not for intervention. In this case, the whole investigation was done and the cops still pushed for prosecution because they didn’t like being opposed. The victim (or ex-suspect if you want) didn’t try to sue for being investigated or for the cops busting in. He sued because the cops still chose to charge him after the whole investigation was done. The prosecution dropped the charges before trial, but they were still filed in the first place.

Second, “exigent circumstances” still allows cops to force they way in… provided there are circumstances they can point to (e.g. person calling for help, reports from neighbors). It’s already been proved times and times again that they have been given a lot of leeway in that regard, maybe too much but that’s a different discussion. Just forcing their way in based on a random phone call is way too open for abuse.

Third, as I understand it, they can get a warrant on pretty short notice. They just need to call in, they don’t need even to do a round-trip to the station. Also, it doesn’t hurt to get one before going, just in case. Not sure what they would base it on, but judges are not very demanding… which is yet another thing to discuss at another time. For now, they favor police enough that your concerns are… unwarranted. 😀

Finally, you keep building imaginary cases where the police is powerless. The truth is that police is currently way too powerful. They can commit abuse and get away with it except in some of the most egregious cases. (With video, otherwise tough luck out there.) It’s high time accountability becomes the norm instead of the exception. Otherwise, the US will be a police state where the Constitution… is more like guidelines.

mhajicek (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Oh, they can visit. For any reason or no reason they can come knock on the door, and if it’s answered ask questions. They can look at what’s visible and listen to what they can while they do so. But that’s all they can do without a warrant or exigent circumstances, and if they do not leave when asked, they are committing criminal trespass.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

or they will return to the police station get a warrant and return

As opposed to phoning it in? Seriously, it’s 2022 and there’s plenty of technology in place to speed up the process. Stop pretending this is a multi-hour process when there’s the ability to have the fucking judge on speed-zoom in a matter of minutes.

There’s no excuse for laziness with technology being what it is. Unless these fucking Luddites can’t be expected to use a fucking cell phone, I can’t see why there would need to be all this running around.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Let me ask you too.

Yes, it’s 2022 and some departments still don’t have body cams. Warrants are specific and detailed and that takes time. Not to mention the courts and therefore the judges are all backed up still recovering from the pause caused by the Pandemic.

Let me ask you.

The question is, what is reasonable and what is unreasonable? Some might consider it unreasonable for the police to demand to see the spouse in a domestic violence call while others would consider it their duty. Slamming the door in the officer’s face might be considered an obstruction of the investigation while some will claim the officer had no right to investigate at all.
Things are changing and cops are caught in the middle and vulnerable.
If you don’t want them to investigate, then don’t send them. If you want them to have a warrant, then provide it to them before you send them. If you want them to call off the investigation if the person doesn’t cooperate, then tell them. If you want them to get a search warrant after the person obstructs their investigation, then tell them to stay or go while waiting for a judge to issue a warrant.

Just curious, how do you want them to handle domestic violence calls or do you?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Yes, it’s 2022 and some departments still don’t have body cams.

I’m sure their unions are chomping at the bit to get them in place ASAP.

Just curious, how do you want them to handle domestic violence calls or do you?

In a professional manner, such that the rights of anyone accused are not violated. Why do you seem to think this is some kind of significant question that you’re spamming the board with it?

Yea-ah-No says:

Re: Re:

“Most of the time people who have nothing to hide cooperate with the police so when they don’t, red flags go up and that is why they more or less forced entry.”

Most is not all, so because most of the people don’t care to be abused by police that means the cops can make up charges on those that do care to not play the cops silly games?

Red flags. Fine, you know what, I do think that good police have a sense of when something doesn’t add up, and that is a good thing. What means is that they need to start looking harder and figure out what is happening. A “Red Flag” in no way ever gives the the right or authority to force entry. It also never gives them a pass to make up charges on someone.

I believe in law and order and that the most certain way to destroy that is to have the people charged with enforcing the law to be abusing it and authority the people have given them.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

One of the first calls my son got when he was on patrol was a possible kidnapping. A man beat up his wife and she fled to the neighbor’s house and called the cops. The man then went inside and dragged her out. My son was the first to arrive and when he got there, the man had the whole family in the car and was backing out of his driveway. At the time my son didn’t worry about a search warrant or an arrest warrant. My son didn’t stop and look harder and try and figure out what was happening and investigate further. He stopped the car and pulled the man out and handcuffed him. He saw the woman’s beat up face and the scared look on the kids. The wife thanked him, and the kids were glad their mom was OK. That is why my son became a cop.

Today, maybe the guy could use this interpretation of law to sue him. My son trespassed, he didn’t have a warrant, etc. If you want the police to do nothing then make them afraid to do anything. Then they will simply quit, retire, transfer, etc. and you will have no one to call.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

That is known as exigent circumstances, and different from someone answering the door, and refusing the cops entry. Absent any indicators of immediate danger to persons, they go and get a warrant. To say that they can do otherwise is to say they can enter your home any time they want, if they can come up with a reason.

Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:2

The example you gave has all the hallmarks of something called exigent circumstances which allows law enforcement a certain leeway in what actions they can take without a warrant. At no point does that include malicious prosecution or officers actually lying about the circumstances.

Your whole reasoning is that the police are entitled to usurp the powers of the courts and judges with impunity while flagrantly trampling all over the 4th amendment. People actually have rights, nowhere in the constitution does it say that the police can ignore those rights because it’s convenient.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

The fact that black people, Latino people, Asian people and LGBT+ people voted for Trump isn’t a sign that he his policies weren’t horribly misguided.

Al Sharpton might want cops on the street. That’s not to say he wants the police gunning black teens down because they didn’t lick your toes fast enough.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Totally for due process, but that also involves the courts. Part of the process is police arresting people and then letting the courts decide whether or not they are guilty. If the new method is to sue the police officer if the courts decide not to prosecute or if they find the person not guilty, then guess what? No one gets arrested.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Totally for due process, but that also involves the courts.

Except for when the Supreme Court says that the 4th Amendment should mean something?

The issue here is NOT that any time charges are dropped that you get to sue the cops. But only if they maliciously arrested you without probable cause. There’s a difference.

And you must know that.

Scary Devil Monastery (profile) says:

Re: Re:

“What I am is a 70-year-old Vietnam era veteran…”

…who is arguing that the VC mode of government is more correct than the US one, right now.

“Most of the time people who have nothing to hide cooperate with the police…”

No they fucking don’t. The SS, the KGB and Hoover’s FBI were very keen on that argument. Doesn’t make it right.
We’ve seen enough of your arguments around here to understand exactly where you’re coming from; to whit, that you’d be happier living in a place where such a thing as a constitution guaranteeing civil rights does not exist.

China and Russia today practice what you keep yearning for in every argument. If you think the american way is such an inconvenience to “proper” law and order, might I suggest you ex-pat to a place where you feel more at home?

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

send your policemen over here and we will pay them double what they get over there

Nah, mate, the rest of the world is already very well aware of what your cops do with the do-gooders in their midst who don’t agree with their methods. As for the double pay, we know you’d rather pay for military surplus toys than training that isn’t shit.

Cattress (profile) says:

Re: Re:

And often enough people who have nothing to hide still get fucked by the police. Baby above with diaper rash for instance. Donut glaze, cotton candy, cat litter, dead baby ashes, hundreds of gallons of diesel and oil, legally owned and stored/carried guns, lack of ID, put innocent cooperative people behind bars or 6 feet under. I even foolishly agreed to polygraph, as a victim with nothing to hide only to find that I was already deemed a druggie in some shit bag no-nothing cops opinion, and was coerced to say what the cop wanted to hear.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Anonymous Coward says:

Let’s all remember that davec is the guy who thinks that people celebrating Derek Chauvin’s arrest are the cause of police fearing for their lives and leaving the job in droves.

He’s the guy who thinks that anyone calling out police brutality should be made to serve and put in the system, i.e. the echo chamber that has proven to intentionally weed out the heroic and enforce the status quo.

He’s the guy angry that the police get frowned on for making mistakes when, in his own words and beliefs, doctors and nurses get away with it if patients happen to die on their watch, and the only resolution should be shrugging off police accidents.

Get ready for him to shit up another thread.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

You’re the one who claims that everyone else wants a copless, lawless hellhole to live in, purely based on the assumption that nobody will ever give cops the benefit of the doubt.

What people here are saying is that they want less abuse of it, to which your response is, in summation, “That’s too hard and will make cops quit the job.” The rest of your rants is relentless gaslighting to suggest that if cops aren’t allowed to make mistakes that end up killing people, the only alternative is setting the whole country on fire.

The narrative you’ve posted is consistently a subtle threat of “I’ve got mine, the rest of you can all go fuck yourselves”.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

No, I’m just the guy explaining why nobody wants to be a cop anymore.

And your basis was people celebrating cops getting punished for overstepping boundaries. Not a cop getting punished because someone sued them successfully – a cop who decided that kneeling on a guy’s neck for nine minutes was justified.

The amount of leaps in logic you had to make between “cops getting punished for manhandling suspects to the point of death” to “no cop will do anything because the public will sue them” so huge you’d probably win the Olypmics if long distance jumping the gun was an event.

Scary Devil Monastery (profile) says:

Re: Re:

“No, I’m just the guy explaining why nobody wants to be a cop anymore.”

Only one to blame for that is the US police force. They kept having the back of bad cops for decades and centuries as a result of which by now no one trusts the cops.

Smarter and older US officers know damn well where the problem lies – with the force. Because it takes exactly one bad cop on the street to tarnish every badge in the city and undo the work of hundreds of good cops.

Yet code blue has demanded the good cops have the backs of the rotten apples.

Where I live peelian policing is the norm and when a cop shows up, most people will take for granted that they won’t get harrassed or shot. Last time I got pulled over in a routine sobriety test point the nice guy with the badge pointed out my left headlight was on the blink and sent me on my way. In the US I’d be afraid to even breathe lest the man with the badge turned out to be a shitwit like Chauvin…or the thousands of other examples similar to him.

The holder of the violence monopoly…you people treat that as a fucking joke.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Not me.

Yes, you. You’re the one talking about bringing in cops from other countries, after all.

a thousand other politicians who wanted to defund the police and are now demanding more police working longer hours

Maybe ask yourself why they’re pro-police. Following money might be a good start.

Also: For all your ugly-crying about how we need more cops, the NYPD recently put more cops in the subway and even that couldn’t prevent today’s subway shooting.

That Anonymous Coward (profile) says:

Re: Re:

I hope she leaves a smoking crater where they were.

This country is fscking insane.

We want to force you to carry a man’s baby.
Rape is God’s plan for you.
We will make it hard for you to get any medical care.
If it was a real rape, your body will shut it down.
We will make it hard for you to get assistance if you keep the child.
Sex is only for procreation.
We will impose our religious based morals with the force of law.

Equal protection under the law, so why in the fsck is no one protecting us from these religious wingnuts who claim to have a right to control another human beings body & life?
Having to bake a “gay cake” is a HUGE imposition on them, but forcing a woman to carry a baby to term is okie dokie.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Oh good lord, what has happened in here.

I’m a bit late to the party. But that lets me go through all of davec’s bullshit and pick out what most needs a response.

Maybe police officers won’t arrest anyone fearing they might get it wrong and be sued.

That hasn’t stopped them before. Don’t know why it would stop them now.

if a police officer can be sued for investigating a recorded 911 call from a confirmed destination, then all domestic violence calls could be thwarted simply by closing the door

A cop could use the 911 call as the basis for a search warrant.

Shouldn’t they issue a search warrant before they send the police?

The police likely won’t know they’ll need one until after they check on a given domestic situation. A lack of evidence (or reasonable suspicion) will stop a warrant from being signed.

I doubt that you will find many people that would give their lives for people that would piss on their graves during the funeral.

The Supreme Court said cops don’t have to do that.

“Fuck off”! Interesting you would say that since a great number of cops who haven’t quit, retired or transferred are doing just that.

[citation needed; your ass is not a valid source of information]

Who would [put their lives on the line for you] when all they have to do is respond to a 911 call, drive safely to the scene and then wait for their lawyers to show up and make sure they are not only physically protected but legally covered before proceeding? That is what you want, right?

Two things.

  1. That “right?” rhetorical gimmick is bullshit.
  2. Generally, people want cops to do their jobs without violating anyone’s civil rights. A cop can already do that without a lawyer present.

despite lowered standards

The Supreme Court said the police can refuse to hire people deemed “too smart” for the job.

We’ve had the fourth amendment for almost a quarter of a millennium and now supposedly we can just shut the door and go back to beating our wives and then sue the police if they try and prevent that?

No, we can’t. The SCOTUS case discussed in this article isn’t even about that kind of situation.

I thought police were just “slave catchers”? Occupiers of Black and Brown communities.

They are, tho’.

Now they want more cops in Black and Brown communities and a crackdown on crime when nobody wants to be a cop anymore.

Crime is a societal failure⁠—a failure of policy, if you will. But since Congress can’t/won’t pass policies that will help fix the root causes of crime, hiring more police will always be the go-to “solution”.

Most of the time people who have nothing to hide cooperate with the police so when they don’t, red flags go up

Says a lot that, to the police, a lack of cooperation with police these days is an instant signifier of criminal activity. Did y’all ever stop to think that maybe people don’t trust cops because of…y’know…all their unpunished abuses of power?

This new interpretation of the law puts them at risk so now how do the cops proceed?

In a way that respects the rights of the citizens they swore to serve, that’s how.

Today, maybe the guy could use this interpretation of law to sue him.

Not really. Exigent circumstances plus the fact that the dude committed an actual crime would not equal a lawsuit for malicious prosecution.

You’re thinking “absolute worst case scenario” about a ruling intended to protect people from, and punish those responsible for, a malicious prosecution. Yes or no: Do you think the legal system can only work if it ignores the law?

If the new method is to sue the police officer if the courts decide not to prosecute or if they find the person not guilty

Someone can file a malicious prosecution lawsuit in those situations, sure. But even the ruling discussed in the article won’t make that lawsuit an instant win.

Which idea scares you more: the idea that cops will stop making shit up to arrest people, or the idea that cops can already be punished for doing that?

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

davec (profile) says:

Re:

I won’t address all your statements, but I will agree that the law tells cops what they can and can’t do. Unfortunately, those laws are in flux creating a very uncertain environment for police officers to make split second life and death decisions. Laws are changing and shootings of police officers are up 43% over last year. “One bullet from death, one mistake from prison”.

As yet there is no law that requires anyone to be a police officer. Many of those that are, are looking for an exit and their replacements are few and of lesser quality. It is estimated that even without depleted police force it will take 10 years to get crime back to the levels of just 2 years ago. With a depleted force, we may never get back. That’s what scares me.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Unfortunately, those laws are in flux creating a very uncertain environment for police officers to make split second life and death decisions.

If you have a job in law enforcement, then knowing all those laws supposedly in flux IS YOUR FUCKING JOB! Sorry if a career in ‘law enforcement’ didn’t suggest that there would be some laws that need to be known and kept up with.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Cops are constantly going to classes and getting new training and yet they still make mistakes. Previously it wasn’t considered a mistake if it was within the guidelines of their training but now that has changed. If all evidence pointed to an honest mistake in a split-second decision, DAs seldom charged officers but now that has changed. DAs are going out of their way to charge police as some part of a social justice agenda that is hurting the very people that it was supposed to help. And the dust hasn’t settled yet and no one is sure when it will.

The FUCKING JOB is FUCKED, and they are not going to do it anymore. So now guess who else is FUCKED? THE WHOLE FUCKING COUNTRY! But maybe that was the goal all along.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Cops are constantly going to classes and getting new training and yet they still make mistakes.

People will always make mistakes. The hope is that cops don’t make mistakes that cost people their lives.

If all evidence pointed to an honest mistake in a split-second decision, DAs seldom charged officers but now that has changed.

[citation needed]

DAs are going out of their way to charge police as some part of a social justice agenda that is hurting the very people that it was supposed to help.

[citation needed]

The FUCKING JOB is FUCKED, and they are not going to do it anymore.

If nobody wants to be a cop, we could always move funding from those non-staffed police departments into social programs that can actually address the root causes of crime and violence. That sounds like a brilliant idea to me.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

The FUCKING JOB is FUCKED, and they are not going to do it anymore.

Then fuck them and their families – let them flip burgers. Makes zero fucking difference to me. Poor, poor police having to keep up in the field they voluntarily fucking chose. Cry me a fucking river.

Good luck in the private sector, assholes, where QA doesn’t exist. Let’s see how they like accountability without it, for a change.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Good luck in the private sector, assholes, where QA doesn’t exist. Let’s see how they like accountability without it, for a change.

On top of the ‘that’s not a threat’ response to the idea of corrupt police leaving that right there is why I can’t help but laugh whenever it’s brought up. ‘Oh police might leave if they’re held accountable for their actions? Good luck in another profession where that’s the default.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

DAs seldom charged officers but now that has changed

Yeah, it turns out that evidence indicates that police departments have a track record of race-based policing, making harassing and derogatory remarks on people of a certain race, deleting their paperwork and body cam evidence and so on – it becomes a lot less comfortable for DAs to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Of course, one solution would be to, you know, not enable such behavior or biases, but when that gets brought up you start flinging out excuses about how the trainers, the senior officers never get punished, so what’s the point of punishing the rank and file? Then you get angry that nobody accepts that as a solution.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

but now that has changed

Yeah, guess what? People are allowed to film you with their mobile phones. That’s not something that’s “in flux”. Yet that hasn’t stopped you chucklefucks from getting angry that people are recording evidence of you suffocating people because you feared for your life.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re:

those laws are in flux creating a very uncertain environment for police officers to make split second life and death decisions

Then give the cops better training and ban bullshit like, say, no-knock warrants. Asking for the people to give up their rights so cops can “stay safe” is the road to a (more obvious) police state.

Laws are changing and shootings of police officers are up 43% over last year.

What were the numbers between 2021 and 2020? What were the numbers for people killed by police in that timeframe? How much of a difference is there between the numbers of police killed and the number of people killed by police in those timeframes?

there is no law that requires anyone to be a police officer

That you’d raise the idea, as if there should be such a law, is heinous.

It is estimated that even without depleted police force it will take 10 years to get crime back to the levels of just 2 years ago.

Who estimated this? What data are they basing their prediction on? What are their credentials? What connections, if any, does that person have to law enforcement?

With a depleted force, we may never get back. That’s what scares me.

What scares me is how you seem to believe letting cops trample all over civil rights and escape accountability for doing so is what this country needs.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re:

Depends on your perspective.

If you think that cops shouldn’t be going around doing those things it’s very much not, and in fact is something to be celebrated.

On the other hand if you’re the type to look at those actions and ask ‘What’s the problem?’ then even the possibility of Personal Responsibility is a horrible change to be vilified.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

davec (profile) says:

Here are the facts

In the United States, an arrest without a warrant still requires probable cause – in the case of an arrest without a warrant, probable cause must be promptly filed. An arrest without warrant is generally allowed when: The person has committed a felony or misdemeanor, and the officer has witnessed it.

The example in the article assumes police can’t enter your home without a warrant and in fact they can. They can’t search your home or seize anything while they’re there without a warrant. The 911 call was probable cause and when the man refused entry and scuffled with the officers that was obstructing governmental administration and resisting arrest which was witnessed by the arresting officer.

So, nothing that the police officers did was illegal or even unprofessional, yet the article implies that they could be sued for violating the man’s civil rights. A new nail in the coffin of policing in this country.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

The example in the article assumes police can’t enter your home without a warrant and in fact they can.

That requires exigent circumstances, though.

The 911 call was probable cause

No, the 911 call was a reason for cops to check on the situation. Probable cause would’ve been an officer seeing something wrong/out of the ordinary when they checked on the situation.

when the man refused entry and scuffled with the officers that was obstructing governmental administration and resisting arrest which was witnessed by the arresting officer.

Did the cops have a warrant? No.

Did the cops have probable cause? Probably not.

Did the cops arrest someone who didn’t want to interact with police only (or primarily) because he didn’t want to interact with police? Arguably yes.

nothing that the police officers did was illegal or even unprofessional

To a blue-liner like you? Of course not. You still think Derek Chauvin was still right to kill George Floyd.

yet the article implies that they could be sued for violating the man’s civil rights

If the cops didn’t do anything wrong, they have nothing to fear from a lawsuit. Besides, it’s not like they’re going to be on the hook for legal expenses.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

To hear davec describe the situation now facing cops, it’s as if cops involved in lawsuits suddenly have no access to a legal team, resources to fund said legal team, or any hope of an appeal or defense as promised by US law. Or the resources held by the US police force intended to help cops out in such a situation. To hear him talk about it, it’s like cops get thrown to the dogs to be savaged by prosecution, judge and jury.

Anyone know if Derek Chauvin’s father was called Dave?

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Not saying that at all. What I’m saying is that police officers don’t want to put themselves in the position of needing a legal team nor do they feel the current environment is willing to put themselves in the officer’s shoes. You guys (this forum in particular) want to treat them like just another drunk in a bar fight and they are saying “we wouldn’t have been there in the first place if you hadn’t sent us”.

It’s easy to take risks and move boldly forward when you have the support of the community behind you, but now what if you make a mistake and the community turns on you? It’s not even if you make a mistake. Sometimes even if you follow your training, you can be charged and the community is supporting those who are trying really hard to put you in prison.

Cops are seeing neighborhoods that they’ve patrolled for years turn into shooting galleries, homeless camps and drug dens and there is nothing they can do about it. They know that the current policies have put more guns on the streets and everyday their job gets more dangerous.

You guys have said it often “FUCK THE COPS” and the cops are saying “NO, FUCK YOU because we are not going to do this job anymore”. Obviously we need cops, but the people who are cops don’t need to be cops. Individually most cops are demoralized and looking for that last straw to push them to quit and they are finding it.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

police officers don’t want to put themselves in the position of needing a legal team nor do they feel the current environment is willing to put themselves in the officer’s shoes

Maybe cops shouldn’t be cops if they can only do their job by violating the civil rights of civilians without consequence.

Sometimes even if you follow your training, you can be charged and the community is supporting those who are trying really hard to put you in prison.

Maybe cops shouldn’t be trained as “soldiers” fighting a “war” where every civilian is a possible “enemy combatant”. I mean, fuck, even actual soldiers have rules of engagement.

Cops are seeing neighborhoods that they’ve patrolled for years turn into shooting galleries, homeless camps and drug dens and there is nothing they can do about it.

Maybe cops aren’t the actual answer to stopping/preventing crime.

They know that the current policies have put more guns on the streets and everyday their job gets more dangerous.

Maybe cops should start pushing for gun control laws that a majority of citizens would (or already do) back.

You guys have said it often “FUCK THE COPS” and the cops are saying “NO, FUCK YOU because we are not going to do this job anymore”. … Individually most cops are demoralized and looking for that last straw to push them to quit and they are finding it.

Maybe cops shouldn’t be cops if they can only do their job by violating the civil rights of civilians without consequence.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Funny you think the government controls who has guns.

They could if they wanted. Or do you think the federal government can’t wipe out an American citizen with a drone strike?

Can you give me an example where they have removed the police and crime has gone away?

No. Can you cite a situation where crime has gone away only and specifically because the government hired more cops?

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Unfortunately, the government only knows about those who they have allowed to own guns.

cops.pdf (princeton.edu)
https://www.princeton.edu/~smello/papers/cops.pdf
Do Police Deter Crime? – JSTOR Daily
https://daily.jstor.org/do-police-deter-crime/
More Police, Managed More Effectively, Really Can Reduce Crime – The Atlantic
https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2015/02/more-police-managed-more-effectively-really-can-reduce-crime/385390/
When You Add More Police To A City, What Happens? : Planet Money : NPR
https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2021/04/20/988769793/when-you-add-more-police-to-a-city-what-happens
Relationship Between Police Presence and Crime Deterrence | Office of Justice Programs (ojp.gov)
https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/relationship-between-police-presence-and-crime-deterrence
Directed Patrolling | RAND
https://www.rand.org/pubs/tools/TL261/better-policing-toolkit/all-strategies/directed-patrolling.html

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

I don’t really have the time to read all the way through every last one of those links. (I do appreciate that you actually fucking cited your shit, though. Better than what most of the troll brigade does.) So I have two more questions for you.

Do any of those links happen to say that any drops in crime rates is provably and exclusively the result of increased police presence, with no other factors (such as a broadening of the social safety net) playing a role in said drops? And how many of those links cite studies/reports/etc. that weren’t funded or created by law enforcement itself?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

This is what happened in Seattle when they focused on a high crime area.
People are feeling safer after Seattle police flood 2 downtown neighborhoods, but one question looms: Will it last? | The Seattle Times
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/law-justice/people-are-feeling-safer-after-seattle-police-flood-2-downtown-neighborhoods-but-one-question-looms-will-it-last/
Sharp surge in violence brings mobile police precinct to downtown Seattle – KIRO 7 News Seattle
https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/sharp-surge-violence-brings-mobile-police-precinct-downtown-seattle/I3DG5TPWP5GETIHOIWETYNDTMQ/
Further proof is what’s happening now. The police are very much on the defensive and they’ve pulled back for all the reasons I stated previously. Small crime is still crime and when people it see everywhere it’s like a virus and soon everything is infected. Small crime becomes like the weeds that violent crime hides in. The higher the weeds, the easier it is for violent crime to hide and the more there is of it.

Nobody likes “Karen’s” not even my son, but they do have a benefit. They are constantly pointing out the weeds and demanding the cops to deal with them. For the most part the weeds aren’t even crimes they’re just nuisances and the cops really don’t want to be bothered. It’s here that my son and most cops agree with “Defunding the Police”. Unarmed public servants could handle as much as 80-90% of all the Karen calls that don’t require an armed officer. This would greatly reduce the weeds and make violent crime stand out and easier to focus on.

Safety nets do little to stop crime. Most nonviolent crime isn’t committed by desperate people, it is committed by people who think they can get away with it. Most petty criminals think they are smarter than the cops because they’ve committed 20 or 30 crimes for every time they got caught. But they were caught! Violence interrupters do reduce gang retaliations but if you look overall killings in the area actually go up.

Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Safety nets do little to stop crime. Most nonviolent crime isn’t committed by desperate people, it is committed by people who think they can get away with it. Most petty criminals think they are smarter than the cops because they’ve committed 20 or 30 crimes for every time they got caught. But they were caught! Violence interrupters do reduce gang retaliations but if you look overall killings in the area actually go up.

Social safety nets do help stop crime in the long term, but their impact in the short term is negligible. Almost all crime can be traced back to societal problems, like inequality and racism in all its forms.

The US suffers from systemic inequality which effects will grow until something is done about it.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

And that besides, implicitly giving credit to the cops for the overall decline in crime over the past few decades assumes cops are the one and only answer to stopping crime. They’re not.

While I’m here, there’s one thing I wanted to address from the post you replied to:

Small crime is still crime and when people it see everywhere it’s like a virus and soon everything is infected. Small crime becomes like the weeds that violent crime hides in. The higher the weeds, the easier it is for violent crime to hide and the more there is of it.

This is the kind of thinking that brought us the “broken windows” policing made (in)famous by the NYPD. How did that work out for the NYPD in the long run, by the by?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

Their color was irrelevant unless you are an activist.

Except no, that’s not true. Color is relevant when the cops see certain neighborhoods as “hot spots” for crime and those neighborhoods happen to have a majority non-white populace. It brings into question whether the cops are policing those neighborhoods to stop crime or to keep certain people “in line”. (Now is a good time to remind you that the roots of American policing go back to slave patrols.) Race matters when the cops view people of color as inherently criminal for merely existing.

By the way: Thanks for answering my question without actually answering it.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

Color is relevant when the cops see certain neighborhoods as “hot spots” for crime and those neighborhoods happen to have a majority non-white populace. It brings into question whether the cops are policing those neighborhoods to stop crime or to keep certain people “in line”.

It also has the potential to create a self-fulfilling prophecy and self-feeding cycle.

Minority X is claimed as more likely to commit crimes, therefore more attention is paid to them and any infraction is more likely to result in an arrest and record in an effort to ‘keep things from getting worse’. Let that go on for a bit and would you look at that, most of the crime statistics do involve minority X, they must have been right originally and clearly even more money and manpower needs to be spent keeping track of them.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

If you think cops are just slave catchers, don’t call them unless you have an escaped slave.

That wasn’t what I said and I’ll thank you to stop shoving words down my throat that didn’t first come from it.

More than half the murders in the country are committed by people who are not white, not female and not young.

[citation needed; preferably one that doesn’t come directly from police, who have every incentive to lie about it]

I’m sure you have an agency in mind to handle that problem

An agency, no. But policy ideas, yes⁠—starting with addressing poverty, which is inarguably one of the root causes of crime.

See, your fucking problem is you want cops addressing the symptoms and seemingly little-to-nothing done about the root causes. You seem to think racist-ass policing policies and cops beating the shit out of people is the one and only solution to crime. What other reason could you have for defending convicted murderer and ex-cop Derek Chauvin, who killed George Floyd over a possibly counterfeit $20 bill?

Lostinlodos (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

Unfortunately that’s all you read. Bad cops sell copy.

Nobody prints the thousands of good throngs they do every day. Like saving kids. Helping old ladies. Rescuing pets. None of those stories makes papers. The likes of neck crusher or one in many thousands of law enforcement.

Bad apples are bad. But you don’t cut down the tree over one worm.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

Bad apples are bad. But you don’t cut down the tree over one worm.

As PaulT rightly pointed out the last time I (sarcastically) used the ‘few bad apples’ line the point of that saying is that you remove the rotten apples, not just shrug off the growing number of rotten ones.

Cutting down a tree that actually did have just a few bad apples would indeed be overkill usually as you’d just remove those and leave the good ones, however if those bad apples aren’t removed and in fact their removal is constantly fought against with those arguing in favor of getting rid of the bad apples demonized as ‘anti-apple’ even as people keep choking on worms then seeing the entire tree as rotten starts to become a lot more reasonable.

Lostinlodos (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18

seeing the entire tree as rotten starts to become a lot more reasonable.

I actually understand you. I’d remove a lot from that and almost, sadly, agree with you.
But like the medical article I pointed out… there’s layers to this beyond just throwing out the bad.

Like needles
They need to be tossed out. But in a manner that’s safe for everyone.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:19

Not sure what’s up with the triple post so replying to the first one.

They need to be tossed out. But in a manner that’s safe for everyone.

What’s the problem with ‘treat it the same as every other job’?

If you screw up badly enough or worse deliberately harm someone else while on the clock your ass is almost certainly going out the door and you might face legal consequences for your actions in any other profession, that seems entirely reasonable to me with no complexity involved.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:21

Unless I’m grossly misreading your comment you seem to be making an excellent case for the entire tree being rotten enough that cutting it down would be warranted. If enough police/civilians fear other cops enough that they’ll stay silent and let the corrupt ones escape consequences for their actions that sounds like a very good reason to scrap the current system and start over as things have clearly taken a horrific turn.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:23

QI doesn’t need to be trimmed QI needs to die in it’s entirety as it’s been made abundantly clear by this point that so long as there’s a ‘get out of consequences-free’ card it can and will be abused and when it’s police that have that card some truly horrific things end up getting a pass.

‘If you can’t be trusted to act responsibly with a toy you don’t get to keep it’, that applies to kids and when the ‘toy’ in question is so potentially dangerous it should apply to police and QI even more.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:20

You might be right. Cops kill approximately 1100 people a year and about 1 in 6 of those are unarmed so let’s call them mistakes. Which means putting approximately 183 cops a year in prison for mistakes that cost lives. Medical mistakes are estimated to kill about 251,000 per year so for every cop in jail there should be a little more than 1350 doctors and nurses in jail. This try putting doctors and nurses in jail and see if it cuts down on their mistakes. Let’s see how many people stay in the medical profession.

Medical errors third-leading cause of death in America (cnbc.com)
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:22

I don’t want to throw doctors or nurses in jail who’ve made an honest mistake or missed a symptom that resulted in someone dying. Nor do I want to throw cops in jail who are trying to stop crime and things go sideways. That won’t prevent a single mistake, it will only result in people leaving those professions and the result will be an increase in deaths and crime.

Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:23

Medical diagnosis and practice isn’t an exact science but its sole purpose is to save lives. Pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger is explicitly done with the intent to injure or kill someone – even if it is done in an effort to save another life.

Comparing the two is disingenuous at best.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:24

I totally agree with you. Comparing the two is disingenuous at best. Medical diagnosis isn’t an exact science, but neither is policing and policing is much harder.

Consider the fact that neither the doctor nor the nurse is risking their life to do what they have been trained to do but the cop is. The doctor can call for tests, consult other doctors and still miss something that results in death and everyone says “he did the best he could”. A cop makes a spilt second decision in a life and death situation and people like you consider him under trained, callous, racist, malicious, indifferent, and even psychopathic. Most cops go through decades of service or entire careers without killing someone but if they do, you want to assume it was intentional. At the very least you want them to face charges. There are approximately 3 and a half million doctors and nurses in the US and they are responsible for the deaths of or over a quarter of a million Americans every year. There are approximately 700 thousand cops who make more than 10 million arrests and in every one of those arrests there is a gun involved yet they kill less than 1100 a year.

I would say cops have a much better record than doctors and nurses. If I was simplistic and vindictive, I would call for doctors and nurses to be held accountable and charge them with manslaughter or murder for every death. But of course I’m not.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:25

Kneeling on someones neck long after they have stopped struggling is not a mistake, it’s deliberate action. Shooting an unarmed fleeing suspect in the back is not a mistake, it deliberate action showing that cops believe failure to obey orders is sufficient grounds for execution. Unless and until the violent cops are at least fired, the cops will not get the respect they think that they deserve.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:27

If cops do something illegal, then hold them accountable.

The article is about holding cops accountable for doing something illegal. You’ve spent the better part of your comments here bitching about how doing exactly that will absolutely destroy policing beyond repair or some other hyperbolic nonsense. And you’re using your son as a shield against criticism, as if we’re not allowed to say anything mean about cops because your son is a cop.

Get something straight, you snowflake sociopath (snow-ciopath?): People here (including me) can and will criticize the institution of policing and individual officers who do wrong. You can’t legally stop us from doing that. All your “BuT mY sOn!!!1!” bullshit won’t stop us, either.

Either find an echo chamber that will metaphorically suck your dick for being a cop’s father or learn to live with people disagreeing with you. But above all else: Get over yourself, you sanctimonious son of a bitch.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:28

What makes their comment extra absurd is that just a little bit of scrolling up in response to my call of scrapping QI entirely they yet again broke out the ‘if you do that police will flee in droves’ line, so I guess you’re supposed to hold police accountable only if you don’t touch any of the things in place that keeps that from happening.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:28

The article is about lowering the bar so that cops can be sued. The previous article was about the “new normal” of sending cops to jail. This echo chamber orbits around punishing cops because 1312, yet I doubt you even know a cop or have ever spent more than a minute discussing your ideas with a cop. You claim if my son was a “good” cop he would have turned in 4 or 5 bad cops by now because 1312. You are demented! If I posted the same bias against any other group I would be called a bigot and yes you are.

I’ll allow you your hatred of police, but it is also having a severe effect on society. There were 3 mass shootings over the Easter weekend which were preceded by the ones in Sacramento and New York. People are scared and dying as crime is reaching new levels. They want more cops and guess what—nobody wants to be a cop not even cops. I know that because I have spent more than a minute talking to them. You say you want to hold cops accountable but then you claim 1312 and expect cops to believe you would give them a fair trial?! It’s much easier not to be a cop than to count on a society that believes 1312.

BTW if I was a “snowflake” I wouldn’t continue to challenge the bigotry of this echo chamber.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:29

The article is about lowering the bar so that cops can be sued.

Cops can already be sued. The ruling “lowers the bar” so that the chance of such lawsuits succeeding have now grown, even if only a little. Again: That you see this as a bad thing is telling on yourself.

The previous article was about the “new normal” of sending cops to jail.

That isn’t a “new normal”. Even you know cops aren’t going to jail for murdering or assaulting people on the job at significantly greater numbers than before (or after) Derek Chauvin.

This echo chamber orbits around punishing cops because 1312

Techdirt and its regular commentariat (myself included) call out shitty cops. If that’s your idea of punishment, that’s sad.

You claim if my son was a “good” cop he would have turned in 4 or 5 bad cops by now because 1312.

I didn’t say anything of the sort. Since you seem to have lost the message the first time: Stop shoving words down my throat that didn’t first come from it.

But since we’re on the topic: Your son would be a good cop if he didn’t violate civil rights, didn’t assault citizens for no (good) reason, spoke out against bad cops (and bad policing practices), and basically didn’t do anything that might land him in articles like the ones you’ve been bitching about.

If I posted the same bias against any other group I would be called a bigot and yes you are.

Two things.

  1. You wanna confess to a bias? Go right ahead. 🍿
  2. You can’t be a “bigot” against cops because “cop” is a career, not an inherent trait.

I’ll allow you your hatred of police, but it is also having a severe effect on society.

Oh, sure, blame me directly for everything wrong with the world~. That’s a tactic that’s sure to make me change my mind~.

(Dipshit.)

There were 3 mass shootings over the Easter weekend which were preceded by the ones in Sacramento and New York. People are scared and dying as crime is reaching new levels.

Precisely none of that is the fault of either “ACAB” attitudes or fewer police on the streets.

They want more cops

What I bet they want is their loved ones alive and well. Adding more cops to the force won’t make that happen in and of itself.

and guess what—nobody wants to be a cop not even cops.

They can go flip burgers, then. Or hell, maybe they can help do something about poverty and homelessness and all the other societal factors that tend to be the root causes of crime⁠—including murders and all those million-member-strong street gangs you keep bitching about. (Do you think we live in the same universe as The Warriors or some shit?)

You say you want to hold cops accountable but then you claim 1312 and expect cops to believe you would give them a fair trial?!

You say that like everyone ever found guilty, imprisoned, and even executed by the state has been part of a fair trial. The Central Park Five alone lay waste to such thinking. The acquittal of the murderers of Emmitt Till do the same thing.

I want cops held accountable for their misdeeds. I want them to be punished for their crimes under the same laws and same sentencing guidelines that all of us regular jackoffs must face. And yes, I want them to get as fair a trial as possible⁠—and that includes the prosecution refusing to favor the police from the get-go.

Yes, my attitudes towards cops would outright preclude me from serving on the jury of a case involving cops. But all you’re doing is reinforcing the kind of bullshit that makes people say “all cops are bastards”. Either you want them held accountable or you don’t⁠—whether I say ACAB (or its numerical equivalent) shouldn’t come into play there.

if I was a “snowflake” I wouldn’t continue to challenge the bigotry of this echo chamber

Every time someone even remotely criticizes the police, there you are to yell back at them about your son. Every time someone criticizes your bullshit, you trot out your son. Every time someone points out how your thinking reinforces the attitudes you’re complaining about, you whine about how your son is being unfairly maligned because he’s a cop.

That’s what makes you a snowflake: Every time you face a little blowback on your opinions, you use your son as a heat shield so you don’t melt. So it’s about damn time someone said this to you: Nobody here fucking cares about your son. Stop using him as a shield to deflect criticism of your opinions. If your crotch spawn wants to speak for himself, send him here; if he doesn’t, stop speaking for him.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:29

expect cops to believe you would give them a fair trial?!

Do you think non-cops would believe cops would give them a fair trial? There’s a reason why in general, it’s not considered wise to talk to the police.

This isn’t even because someone believes in ACAB, it’s literally admitted by both legal experts and law enforcement that talking to the police isn’t a good idea. It sucks for everyone involved. But that’s the environment that cops have created, because their priority is arrests, not proof of innocence.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:27

If cops do something illegal, then hold them accountable.

Which happened to Derek Chauvin. Which you constantly bitched about in the previous article.

davec, mate, it’s genuinely not difficult to read back on previous comment threads to see what kind of cop you’ll defend. You don’t actually think Chauvin did anything illegal, reading your comments it sounds far more like you thought Floyd got what he deserved and Chauvin just happened to be caught in a bad light, because your son probably went through something almost similar enough that you feel this intense compulsion to carry Chauvin’s water.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:28

Chauvin had this arrogant look on his face while he rocked his knee into George Floyd’s neck and killed him. My son has never defended Chauvin to me, and I have never defended Chauvin to anyone. What I have argued against is using Chauvin as an excuse for the collective punishment of the police. Potter is in prison, Rolfe is facing the death penalty, and 19 cops are facing life in prison in Austin Texas because of that collective punishment. Cops are leaving because they have been demonized and they feel the job has become too difficult and dangerous. They believe that that collective punishment will rain down on them if they make a mistake. “One bullet from death and one mistake from prison”.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:29

I have never defended Chauvin to anyone. What I have argued against is using Chauvin as an excuse for the collective punishment of the police.

That sounds like you’re defending Chauvin⁠—which is to say, you’re implying that he shouldn’t have been punished because of the effect it could have on holding police accountable for their actions.

We’ve all seen countless examples of police getting away with murder⁠—figuratively and literally⁠—because of shit like “I feared for my life” claims. What happens when one cop finally gets convicted for it? You act like the verdict (a) declared open season on cops everywhere and (b) committed a crime against humanity. You keep telling on yourself and it’s both entertaining and sad.

Cops are leaving because they have been demonized and they feel the job has become too difficult and dangerous.

Statistically, being a cop isn’t even in the top ten most dangerous jobs in the United States. (Last I checked, anyway.)

Also, cops can avoid being demonized by cleaning up their trash⁠—both bad cops and bad training alike. They won’t see better PR until they stop acting like they’re fighting a war and citizens are enemy insurgents.

They believe that that collective punishment will rain down on them if they make a mistake.

Police have been given far too much deference by both lawmakers/politicians and the legal system in general. That people have decided to hold cops accountable for their bullshit more often than “never” is a good thing. You seeing it as a bad thing always tells on you⁠—and it says nothing good about you.

Also shut the fuck up with that “collective punishment” shit. Until cops are held accountable en masse for their misdeeds on a regular basis, there is no “collective punishment” of cops. There are only high-profile examples of shitty cops being thrown in jail as a sacrifice. After all, Derek Chauvin wasn’t going to be prosecuted until the video of him killing George Floyd went public.

I bet you’re still pissed about that video going public.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:30 In keeping with the tone of your post.

In keeping with the tone of your post.

You are too fucking spiteful to ever accept anything except the harshest of verdicts directed at the police. If the courts were to exonerate a cop, you’d see that as proof the whole system was corrupt. If they convict them you would see it as proof all cops are corrupt so I don’t give a flying fuck if you think I’m defending Chauvin when I defend other cops. You’re too fucking stupid to accept any other explanation.

There may be more dangerous jobs than being a cop but there are no other jobs where people are trying to kill you. If not for an overabundance of caution that you view as “acting like they fighting a war” there would be a lot more injured and dead cops. But no skin off your fucking nose. Not your fucking kid. Not your fucking wife.

Cops are leaving and you are too fucking ignorant to even know it. Too fucking stupid to figure out why, too fucking simple to understand what that means, too fucking arrogant to listen and too fucking self-righteous to care. You would much rather see thousands of innocent people robbed, murdered, raped, and assaulted rather than give any consideration to those who are trying to prevent that. Enjoy yourself asshole.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:31

If the courts were to exonerate a cop, you’d see that as proof the whole system was corrupt

On what basis? If a court decides to exonerate a cop despite eyewitness testimony and bodycam footage proving otherwise… then yes, concluding that the courts are corrupt to favor a cop’s word above all else, even damning counterevidence, is a reasonable conclusion.

I don’t give a flying fuck if you think I’m defending Chauvin when I defend other cops

I’m glad to see we’ve all come to the understanding that between Chauvin and people angry with Chauvin, you’d pick Chauvin every time.

too fucking arrogant to listen and too fucking self-righteous to care

Projection, thy name is davec. The rest of your rant is once again, assuming that everyone else who disagrees with you is a murderer and rapist.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:31

You are too fucking spiteful to ever accept anything except the harshest of verdicts directed at the police.

I can accept a verdict whether it’s the one I wanted or not. But if it isn’t the one I wanted to see, I don’t have to fucking like it.

If the courts were to exonerate a cop, you’d see that as proof the whole system was corrupt.

If the system did its best to exonerate that cop? Yes. Yes, I would. DAs who refuse to indict or paint a cop in the best possible light to a grand jury, judges who give more deference to the cops than to the people whose rights were violanted, and judges who give minimal jail time to police who commit brazen acts of corruption and violence are all complicit in the same system that lets the police trod over our civil rights without consequence. Accountability includes consequences for one’s actions; sometimes, that means jail time.

If they convict them you would see it as proof all cops are corrupt

No, I wouldn’t. I’d see it as the legal system performing a goddamn miracle in convicting a shitty cop who did a shitty thing that they probably would’ve gotten away with if not for a key piece of evidence…like, say, a cell phone video.

I don’t give a flying fuck if you think I’m defending Chauvin when I defend other cops

And yet, here you are.

there are no other jobs where people are trying to kill you

You’ve clearly never worked retail.

If not for an overabundance of caution that you view as “acting like they fighting a war” there would be a lot more injured and dead cops.

And how many people have been killed by that warmonger mindset? If you want an example of this shit in practice, go look up the killing of Tamir Rice⁠—that was some “he must be an enemy insurgent, kill kill kill” shit.

The police can do their jobs without needing to use lethal violence as the first and only resort every time they encounter someone. (Especially if that someone isn’t white…) That you’re implying otherwise is⁠—wait for it!⁠—telling on yourself once more.

Cops are leaving and you are too fucking ignorant to even know it.

I recognize that cops are leaving the job. I just don’t care. If it’s “too dangerous” for them, let them flip burgers. If they can’t do the job without committing crimes/violating civil rights on a regular basis, let them stock shelves.

The culture of policing must change to something better than it is right now if you want me to stop believing in ACAB. Accountability must be part of that change. Your inability to accept that is a “you” problem⁠. Fix it yourself.

You would much rather see thousands of innocent people robbed, murdered, raped, and assaulted rather than give any consideration to those who are trying to prevent that.

What about the people who have their money and property stolen by cops under the guise of criminal forfeiture? What about the people killed by cops for any reason? What about women⁠—including sex workers⁠—who are forced to have sex with a cop in exchange for their continued freedom? What about the thousands of people who are beaten, shocked, shot, and otherwise assaulted by the police every year?

Do any of those people matter to you? Or do you only give a fuck about you, your son, and the police?

With great power comes great responsibility; with great responsibility comes great accountability. Power without accountability will always leads to corruption⁠—and I hope you realize that before you end up saying “Derek Chauvin should be a free man” in a fit of rage.

Lostinlodos (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18

seeing the entire tree as rotten starts to become a lot more reasonable.

Sadly I actually generally agree with you. Remove “a lot” and I agree completely. But there’s layers here, explained in the medical article I pointed to.

Bad apples need to be tossed out.
But like sharps, in a way that’s safe.
Sticking one in the trash can come back to hurt you if not done properly. Or others!

Cattress (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

Good cops sell copy too, don’t give me that shit. The difference is that cops already enjoy the default view as a hero/good guy; I mean hello, look at what Hollywood has done for their reputation (how many of us think of Jack McCoy, detectives Benson and Stabler as sort of friends in our head, who we still want to think of as a typical prosecutor or detectives?)
The stories that need sunlight are the ugly ones, like cops breaking/dislocating the arm of a little old lady with dementia, then watching video with other cops an laughing at the sound of the pop. People need to know that their beloved dogs will be shot dead running around in their fenced yard or happily running up to greet the stranger approaching who happens to be a cop. George Floyd’s murder was framed as a fucking medical event during arrest; the video was the necessary sunshine. People need to know that cops are not capable of handling people in any sort of crisis, with neuro-divergent conditions, people with mental or physical disabilities, children & young teens, or addicts. That’s how we get cops more training (if they will take it) and resources devoted to alternative ways of responding to situations that should never have been foisted in the cops in the first place.
It’s in the public’s interest to know that oftentimes cops aren’t getting sufficient mental healthcare themselves, that they have higher rates of being domestic batterers, and that they use their power to commit and cover up a lot of sexual crimes, including against children.
There is little public interest in making sure a cop gets sufficient accolade for diving into dangerous water to rescue a kid, they are supposed to do that sort of thing if the situation presents itself. However, it is vital that the public knows that cops transporting vulnerable female suspects during a hurricane lack the a) common sense b) respect for warning or advice coming from lowly road maintenance crews or other professionals c) respect for the lives of anyone else when they decide to drive around a damn road block into flood waters and ultimately drown 2 vulnerable women trapped in the van that cops made it out of just fine. This is exactly what character is all about, doing the right thing even if no one is watching. Cops making bad press for themselves have no one to blame but themselves.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

Murder demographic
Arrests by offense, age, and race (ojjdp.gov)
https://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/ucr.asp?table_in=2

People aren’t killing one another because they’re hungry. Poverty is one aspect but there are several others. Social environment—how about not having to raise your children surrounded by crime. Family structure—fathers in the household. Lack of respect and responsibilities. Abuse and neglect of children. Family violence.
Causes of Crime – Explaining Crime, Physical Abnormalities, Psychological Disorders, Social And Economic Factors, Broken Windows, Income And Education – JRank Articles
https://law.jrank.org/pages/12004/Causes-Crime.html

Add to that drugs, guns, gangs and homelessness and you have a horrible Social environment to raise children in.

Also consider that crime causes poverty. Stores, and factories close or move because they’ve been robbed taking employment with them. Offices closing or moving because their employees don’t feel safe. Higher prices in stores that do remain because of increased security costs and losses.

See, your fucking problem is you think when I defend one cop or most cops I’m defending Derek Chauvin because to you all cops are the same—BAD. You’re an admitted 1312 bitch.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:17

when I defend one cop or most cops I’m defending Derek Chauvin because to you all cops are the same

When you defend one cop it’s because you have a vested interest in protecting your son. That by itself is fair. Where you goofed was picking Derek Chauvin as your hill to die on because people celebrating Derek Chauvin’s arrest somehow inconveniences him.

Cops have been thinking of non-whites, women and other minorities as mass offenders, criminals and rapists on the basis of a few. They’re entitled to those assumptions and have been operating on those assumptions. All that happened to Chauvin as a result of his case was that people celebrated his conviction. Which you got angry about. It’s very clear that you’re angry about the reactions to Chauvin, over Chauvin’s actions.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18

Piss poor effort in twisting what I actually said which was

“See, your fucking problem is you think when I defend one cop or most cops, I’m defending Derek Chauvin because to you all cops are the same—BAD. You’re an admitted 1312 bitch.”

I’m pretty certain everyone in this forum knows what 1312 is short for and many here agree with it. I will continue to speak out against that simplistic hatred as I would any bigotry especially since it is not only harmful to society but is focused on my children.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:19

If you’re not defending Chauvin, why get angry that people celebrated his punishment? If your anger is about Kim Potter’s punishment, why get angry about the schadenfreude that Derek Chauvin is getting?

Your anger is about cops who get punishments you feel they don’t deserve, but you chose of your own volition to start getting angry on an article about a cop who did. You’re angry because other people are entitled to their emotions or reactions that you happen to disagree with. I had to actually look up 1312, not everyone is a rapist out to get your son.

Again, get over yourself.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:20

What makes you think I’m angry? I actually just posted this few moments ago and it explains about punishing the police. Due to the structure of this forum, you might not see it, so I’ll paste it here.

There is accountability and then there is collective punishment. Kim Potter made a mistake that took a life just like doctors and nurses do every day. She was sent to prison because of the collective punishment directed at cops. Garret Rolfe is facing the death penalty because of the collective punishment. Cops should be held accountable for illegal actions whether they are on duty or off but just like doctors and nurses, consideration needs to be given for the position they are put in. Without that consideration neither policing nor the medical profession will continue to provide the service we demand.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:21

What makes you think I’m angry?

Your own words, claiming that you’re intending to counter the author’s “enjoyable schadenfreude” in the previous article. Also the usage of multiple counts of “fuck” in several comments, and repeated insistences on your part claiming that the only reason why we celebrate such punishments is because we’re all criminally aligned.

You chose to use Derek Chauvin’s punishment as a soapbox to tie in other punishments levied on cops, as part of a plea that claims cops shouldn’t face consequences for their actions. I’m not going to insist all cops are bastards. That’s not going to say that I follow your blind faith that cops can only function if their actions are recklessly greenlit.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:22 I'm not angry.

All “fucks” are an echo of the post I was responding to and in one case it is a quote.

You seem to think Derek Chauvin is the only one who got punished. Chauvin became the prism that all cops were viewed through. My own son was standing in formation being pelted with rocks and bottles and being called a “racist piece of shit” because he was wearing a badge like Chauvin.

Potter is in prison for making a mistake that had happened 9 times previously without charges being filed. Potter had every right to arrest Daunte Wright and every right to Tase him when he resisted. In the split-second struggle she made a mistake that cost a life just like doctors and nurses do every day. The judge admitted the only reason she was being sent to prison was retribution.

It is that “enjoyable schadenfreude” at that retribution that I spoke out against there. I warned that if it continued cops would simply cease to be cops. My daughter in law retired and my son has transferred from patrol to a tech job. The job has become much harder and much more dangerous, so cops everywhere are looking for the exit.

I often compare cops to doctors and nurses because in both instances a mistake can cost a life. If a cop, doctor or nurse is doing something illegal then by all means prosecute. But if they are following their training and make a mistake there has to be a consideration made for the position they’re in.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:22

All “fucks” are an echo of the post I was responding to and in one case it is a quote.

You seem to think Derek Chauvin is the only one who got punished. Chauvin became the prism that all cops were viewed through. My own son was standing in formation being pelted with rocks and bottles and being called a “racist piece of shit” because he was wearing a badge like Chauvin.

Potter is in prison for making a mistake that had happened 9 times previously without charges being filed. Potter had every right to arrest Daunte Wright and every right to Tase him when he resisted. In the split-second struggle she made a mistake that cost a life just like doctors and nurses do every day. The judge admitted the only reason she was being sent to prison was retribution.

It is that “enjoyable schadenfreude” at that retribution that I spoke out against there. I warned that if it continued cops would simply cease to be cops. My daughter in law retired and my son has transferred from patrol to a tech job. The job has become much harder and much more dangerous, so cops everywhere are looking for the exit.

I often compare cops to doctors and nurses because in both instances a mistake can cost a life. If a cop, doctor or nurse is doing something illegal then by all means prosecute. But if they are following their training and make a mistake there has to be a consideration made for the position they’re in.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:23

You seem to think Derek Chauvin is the only one who got punished. Chauvin became the prism that all cops were viewed through

It turns out that when bad apples get so egregious, so offensive, people next to them get branded by association. This happens to any group of people. Including the people that the cops police, who regularly leverage the biases from their own experiences to justify making arrests and pulling triggers. Why should the police be immune to this?

a mistake that had happened 9 times previously without charges being filed

Previously it was also possible for someone to get out of a murder charge by claiming that someone gay made them angry purely by existing. Previously it was also possible for cops to arrest people because they were recording footage of a cop, even if that person was a mainstream media journalist.

When standards of law change, someone is going to be the fall guy. It happened to be Kim Potter this time. I’m more concerned you think that cops who shoot people and kill them shouldn’t face any consequences whatsoever.

The judge admitted the only reason she was being sent to prison was retribution.

Your quote said Potter made a tragic mistake. Absolutely nothing about retribution, or saying to the effect “I don’t want to sentence you to prison but the public will get angry if I don’t.” I can say that Potter made a mistake under very dubious circumstances and not assume that she’s of Chauvin’s ilk.

It is that “enjoyable schadenfreude” at that retribution that I spoke out against there

Again, not every punishment given to a cop is retribution. You’re trying to project Chauvin’s consequences onto every interaction your son has, or every cop has, while claiming that nobody else can hold a less than flattering perspective on cops based on their own experiences.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:24

Do you judge all groups by the worst in them?

There are agencies in most cities, counties and states that oversee police conduct, but you are right the standards of law have changed. The “new normal” which uses retribution to throw cops in jail for making a mistake.

“This has been an extremely difficult decision,” Chu said before asking Potter to rise for her sentencing. “In making my decision, I look to the purposes of incarceration. There are four: retribution, incapacitation, deterrence, and rehabilitation.”
She said that three of the four do not apply to Potter’s situation.

“Retribution, or serving time as a way for a convicted person to pay for the harm inflicted on a victim, is the sole purpose that applies in this case,” she said. “And in this case, a young man was killed because Officer Potter was reckless. There rightfully should be some accountability.”

If it was just me projecting, cops wouldn’t be leaving and there would be tons of new recruits rushing in to snap up signing bonuses.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:25

There are agencies in most cities, counties and states that oversee police conduct

Most of those agencies show favor to the police far more often than they don’t.

The “new normal” which uses retribution to throw cops in jail for making a mistake.

Derek Chauvin kneeling on a man long enough to kill him was a “mistake”?

Retribution, or serving time as a way for a convicted person to pay for the harm inflicted on a victim, is the sole purpose that applies in this case … There rightfully should be some accountability.

That you see this as a bad thing is, once again, telling on yourself. Goddamn, dude, you’re one of the reasons I believe in the ACAB philosophy: You’re not willing to hold cops accountable under any circumstance⁠—and if you are, it comes with a large side of whining about how this accountability thing is going too far or some shit.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:26

I see it as a bad thing when a job becomes so difficult and dangerous that no one wants to do it. We have agencies that investigate medical mistakes and you probably accept those, but you are so 1312 you wouldn’t consider it for the police because they might be more understanding of what cops are going through than you. Can’t have that! If you pulled your head out of your ass and looked around you would find the vast-vast majority of cops were trying to do a good job. That shouldn’t be meaningless to you but I’m sure it is. You need to change the name of your philosophy to ACAC—All cops are Chauvin.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:27

but you are so 1312 you wouldn’t consider it for the police

Do you genuinely think that all judges are now out to get cops?

And in this case, a young man was killed because Officer Potter was reckless. There rightfully should be some accountability.

I get that you would far, far rather cops get nothing more than a slap on the wrist and paid vacation. Times have changed. Some of these transitions are going to suck. But if you think becoming more aggressive, or passive-aggressive like the way you are behaving, is going to improve things for cops in general, think again. Judges aren’t going to look favorably on cops when their QI abuses become more egregious.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:28

Judges aren’t out to get cops, but some “progressive” DAs are. Charging Officer Rolfe with murder and he is now facing the death penalty. Charging 19 Austin police officers with aggravated assault who are now facing life in prison. Even if those charges are reduced or if they are found not guilty, those charges add weight to any civil suit. Work your ass off and be an exemplary officer like Officer Potter did for 26 years and then make a split-second decision and lose everything. Cops aren’t going to judge whether that is fair or not, they are going to decide if they want to be in that position. Even if they decide to risk it, their spouses probably won’t.

The judge was in tears when she sentenced Potter and the only reason she could find for putting Potter in jail was “retribution”.

“This has been an extremely difficult decision,” Chu said before asking Potter to rise for her sentencing. “In making my decision, I look to the purposes of incarceration. There are four: retribution, incapacitation, deterrence, and rehabilitation.”
She said that three of the four do not apply to Potter’s situation.
“Retribution, or serving time as a way for a convicted person to pay for the harm inflicted on a victim, is the sole purpose that applies in this case,” she said. “And in this case, a young man was killed because Officer Potter was reckless. There rightfully should be some accountability.”

If you want to end the medical profession start demanding all medical mistakes be prosecuted. Demonize and prosecute doctors and see how many people study medicine. Remember nobody is trying to kill doctors.

From the day I pinned the badge on my son till the day he transferred out of patrol, I hadn’t realize that I never fully exhaled.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:29

but some “progressive” DAs are

What would your solution have been? Putting Chauvin on a paid holiday, perhaps? Or transferring him to another department that welcomes and encourages his behavior? After all, in your own words, Potter shouldn’t have been punished because the same mistake hadn’t been punished before.

Work your ass off and be an exemplary officer like Officer Potter did for 26 years and then make a split-second decision and lose everything

Mistakes happen, and sometimes those mistakes are costly. This applies to everyone.

Retribution, or serving time as a way for a convicted person to pay for the harm inflicted on a victim, is the sole purpose that applies in this case

Ah, so it’s the legal definition of retribution you have an issue with. Since you enjoy using your son as a personal example to tug at the heartstrings, what would your reaction be if your wife was gunned down after a no-knock warrant secured the incorrect address? If the officer in question had a stellar record lasting decades with no known mistakes? You’d have let them go free of consequence, because you don’t think retribution should be a thing, and there’d be no point in punishing them since their inadequate trainers or senior staff wouldn’t be punished, and punishing the team who killed your wife would, in your terms, lead to even more cops leaving the force?

If you want to end the medical profession start demanding all medical mistakes be prosecuted.

Is anyone here saying that malpractice shouldn’t be dealt with?

From the day I pinned the badge on my son till the day he transferred out of patrol, I hadn’t realize that I never fully exhaled.

Same for the families of soldiers, but you don’t see them justifying Derek Chauvin.