On Elon Musk And Free Speech

from the free-speech-is-complicated dept

Let’s start this off by noting that I actually think that Elon Musk sometimes receives both too much criticism from some circles and too much praise from others. I think he deserves tremendous praise for taking visions that, at the time, seemed nearly impossible, and then making them real. From electric vehicles with Tesla, to space flight with SpaceX, it’s unquestionable that he’s driven tremendous innovation. And even in areas like Starlink, which has been unfortunately overhyped, he deserves kudos for actually building a working (if somewhat limited) satellite internet service. And that’s not even getting into his various efforts with trying to create a hyperloop, or trying to deal with transportation issues via The Boring Company. Again, some of these have been massively overhyped, but Musk, unlike many others, gets a vision and then acts on it, and I find that commendable — and helpful in driving innovation forward.

That said, it often feels like there are a few too many times when he seems to think that whatever idea just popped into his head is the most brilliant idea in the world, and it’s not possible that people who have actually thought these things through might have some further insight. And, again, it’s perhaps not too surprising why he would think that. There were tremendous naysayers for all of his other endeavors, and by sticking (mostly) to his vision, he’s made them successful, and made himself the richest man ever.

But, sometimes, he steps into areas where it might help to have a little humility and recognize that perhaps things are slightly more complex than you realize. This morning, Musk tweeted out a poll, saying: “Free speech is essential to a functioning democracy. Do you believe Twitter rigorously adheres to this principle?”

As I post this “No” is winning at about 70% to 30%, which is pretty much to be expected (I actually expected “No” to be even higher). Because if you ask people about it, many people — especially the Elon Musk fan groupies, of which there are many — will revert to “the narrative” that has made the rounds these days, that Twitter and other social media companies are too aggressive in their moderation practices.

Of course, “the narrative” misses a lot. In fact, if you actually follow these things, and understand the history, you’d know that Twitter is, actually, significantly more hands off than almost any other social media company that reached the size Twitter has. But you would also know that no website that accepts user content can stand to not do some moderation. If you do none at all, not only will you face legal problems (child sexual abuse material, copyright infringement, etc.), but your service will turn into a cesspool of spam, abuse, and harassment, driving users away.

So every website has to create rules, and then has to create policies and train teams and technology to enforce those rules. And, as always, that’s where the impossibility of content moderation at scale comes into play. Some people are always going to disagree with moderation choices. I frequently think that Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, etc. make serious mistakes. But, again, that’s because any site is going to make “mistakes.” Sometimes those mistakes are because they mess up the rules. Sometimes it’s because people interpret rules differently. Sometimes it’s because we don’t know all the details. And sometimes it’s because everyone judges things differently, and so there’s always going to be a level of disagreement about how to enforce any rules.

Indeed, this is part of the reason why I always find it amusing when a new Twitter-wannabe enters the market and screams about how they are going to “support free speech, unlike Twitter.” Gab claimed that, and then couldn’t find enough users to actually want to stick around its cesspool. Then there was Parler, which initially claimed that it would only moderate based on the 1st Amendment, but then started just making up its own rules on who to ban (and its then CEO even bragged about “banning leftist trolls”) once it realized that such a standard makes no sense. Or how about GETTR, set up by a former Trump advisor, that still pretends to be about free speech, but bans accounts of anyone who mocks one of its biggest investors. And, of course, there’s now Trump’s own Truth Social, which makes clear it will ban users for making fun of Trump, and has already banned people for mocking its CEO, Devin Nunes?

The point is that every website will have rules and policies, and there has to be some way to enforce those rules — and that can include account suspensions and bans at times. It’s okay to argue that some sites moderate badly. Or that there might be a better way. I, personally, still think we’d be better off with social media being a protocol with lots of implementations, rather than controlled by one company, because that would allow for much more experimentation.

But, part of the “principles of free speech” is that private property owners have the right to set the rules for you using their property for speech. And if you violate them, you might get kicked off.

Indeed, Elon Musk knows this, because he has quite a long track record of retaliating against people for their speech. Just recently we posted about Tesla firing an employee for posting critical footage to YouTube. I tweeted this point to Musk in response to his poll:

https://twitter.com/mmasnick/status/1507404845543673856

For hours now I’ve been having various Musk fans trying to explain to me that it’s fine for him to have fired the employee because he broke some sort of policy (which policy differs depending on which slavishly devoted fan is responding). But… that proves my point. There’s a point at which pretty much everyone recognizes that violating a policy might lead to a consequence, and that consequence can include being banned/fired. Whether or not we agree or disagree with whether the consequences are proportionate is certainly a judgment call.

But it’s not about the “principles of free speech.”

Indeed, if we’re going to talk about the “principles of free speech” and Elon Musk, one might point out that he fired a union organizer at Tesla. Or how he banned journalist/investor Stewart Alsop from buying a Tesla because Musk didn’t like Alsop’s (rather mild) criticism of how Musk ran the Model X launch event. Or how a blogger was intimidated into no longer writing about Tesla by threatening to sue the guy. There are numerous examples of this.

All of this reminds me quite clearly of Jacob Mchangama’s new book on the history of free speech, where time and time again, people declare support for “the principles of free speech,” but as soon as they’re able to, they try to use their powers to silence (or even kill) critics.

The “principles of free speech” often are a lot more complex than they seem. Only fools and naïve faux intellectuals actually believe that the principles of free speech mean that private companies must allow all speech. Because that neither (1) works nor (2) enables free speech. As we’ve discussed for years, allowing different companies to choose their own content moderation practices and their own rules is what actually enables more free speech — because it allows any company to feel comfortable hosting speech.

If you force companies to host “all” speech, then you run into a series of problems. First, the spam, garbage and harassment problem. And this actually harms “the principles of free speech” by causing lots of people to go away and not take part. But by allowing the wider internet to exist, and allowing different companies or groups to set up their own rules and their own enforcement mechanisms, that actually enables more of a culture of free speech because people can vote with their feet and find the spaces where the are able to speak and where they are most comfortable.

Musk’s implied suggestion that because Twitter has some moderation practices that he disagrees with that it’s somehow against the idea of free speech is silly in the extreme. It shows a pointed lack of understanding of the various challenges, and the ridiculous number of tradeoffs that a company like Twitter goes through in developing its trust & safety policies and enforcement practices.

Musk hints in a follow up tweet that if people vote to say that Twitter does not “rigorously adhere” to the “free speech principle” that he will take some sort of action. Some people assume that means he would buy Twitter (something he could afford to do if he wanted to), or that he would start up his own competitor (an increasingly crowded space). If he were to actually do that, he might want to look closely at how that’s worked for that long list of wannabes, and how their promises to naively “support free speech” played out in practice. Yes, maybe Musk would do something different. Maybe his version of Twitter will somehow be the “Tesla” version that pushes through where others failed.

But maybe, just maybe, there’s a reason why every website learns that you have to do some moderation. And maybe, just maybe, he’ll come to understand that the “principles of free speech” also include the right of private companies to set their own policies and to exclude those who violate those policies. I mean, usually, that’s done in a more systemized manner than Musk banning a journalist for criticizing him, but, hey, everyone makes mistakes sometimes.

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Companies: tesla, twitter

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Comments on “On Elon Musk And Free Speech”

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Anonymous Coward says:

Would Elon musk be using twitter if it was full of spam, ads, illegal content from Qanon and weird conspiracy theory’s, even 4chan has content it bans and it blocks users if they break the rules
most people would not want to wade thru spam and random extreme content to read about say tech current affairs on whatever
forum or app they wish to use
If he’s saying that any app that bans users or moderates content is against free speech he’s very naive or does not understand how modern Internet services work

ECA says:

Re: So much entertainment

There seems to be a group that demands Unedited-free speech.
Then there seems to be another group very like THAT one, that wants restrictions on this and that, Which hasnt been thought out very well, and has caused problems.
Then there is a group trying to have the internet with all the privacy of the Old phone system and more protections. But it never had TONS of unforced protections.

It seems both groups are on the same party? Strange or stupid? Being NICE all the time isnt good for anyone, as there are many times someone needs the word NO in their lives. Being Politically correct has gotten us no where, as we cant call a person an idiot without offending someone.

Whats fun to watch is all these people Aiming at the BIG guys that have made things work in the realm of Sharing and have something to say. We see a few startups TRY to do things differently, but they end up as bad, or WORSE then those they are trying to BEAT to the great ideal of free speech.

Free speech has little to do with everyone screaming at each other. ANd since Capitalism is so GREAT in this country, WHO do you think is editing Anything?

The Gov. should stand aside while this battle goes on. Monitor things and see what is happening, and what Can be done. BUT NOT choose a side.
Lets have the Gov. State that a site dedicated to Open-unedited-free speech must NOT edited/kick/dissuade Any posts or persons from their site no matter the CRAP POSTED.
But that would make them liable for anything Stored on their site, so the odds are it will be Basic TXT only, and few if any links. ANd as soon as 1 of the moderators says something, would it make them liable?

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Anonymous Coward (user link) says:

Twitter unethical

&&&> “The point is that every website will have rules and policies, and there has to be some way to enforce those rules”

..

Yes, but Musk’s point is that such rules & policies ethically should not support a biased political agenda in a broad social media platform.

TWITTER management obviously has a biased political agenda and actively discriminates against participants who may counter that agenda.
(for example, Twitter’s outrageous cancellation of the NY Post newspaper account… because of its true and highly newsworthy journalistic reporting of Hunter Biden Laptop scandal)

And yes. Musk is hypocritical in punishing an employee for his political views.
And yes, Musk has a big ego and other faults.
However, these facts do not invalidate Musk’s accurate view of Twitter.

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Mike Masnick (profile) says:

Re:

Yes, but Musk’s point is that such rules & policies ethically should not support a biased political agenda in a broad social media platform.

Everyone falsely assumes that every social media platform is moderating based on a political agenda, and that’s just hilariously wrong.

TWITTER management obviously has a biased political agenda and actively discriminates against participants who may counter that agenda.

That’s ignorant nonsense. Twitter is so busy just trying to manage the basics. The idea that there’s some political agenda behind their trust & safety efforts is just pure ignorance.

(for example, Twitter’s outrageous cancellation of the NY Post newspaper account… because of its true and highly newsworthy journalistic reporting of Hunter Biden Laptop scandal)

That’s a perfect example of how wrong you are. As we detailed at the time, that was because of a policy violation: Twitter had had a “hacked materials” policy going back much earlier (we had criticized them for that policy earlier when it took down a journalism organization). But that reporting clearly did violate that policy.

It wasn’t a political decision. Again, Twitter had previously banned others for that same violation. It may have been a stupid policy decision, but it was a policy decision that had nothing to do with politics.

Even more to the point: the discussion of those emails was widespread all over Twitter. The only issue was the single Post tweet that linked directly to content that Twitter said violated its policies, which, again, had been in place long before and had been enforced regularly.

This is the point I keep making: people nefariously reading politics or bias or motive into basic content moderation tend to demonstrate their ignorance of what’s really happening: an overworked team that has to make tons of snap decisions every day on policies where every scenario is not at all clear.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

You have to understand, Elon’s so used to being rich, white and South African that any sort of criticism is him being pushed so far out of his comfort zone that he feels extremely uncomfortable.

ie, he’s so used to being praised that when people criticize him, he throws a fucking tantrum until the praise continues or someone fucking shuts him up legally.

My apologies for bringing the dreaded RACE into this and I sincerely apologize for bringing up something unpleasant. Unfortunately, him being privileged is important to understanding why he’s such a cunt.

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Chris says:

Re: Re:

well, according to NYTimes, there was no “Hacking” of that laptop. So Twitter invoking its no-hacked-material policy had no factual basis.
Hunter Biden abandoned his laptop at a Delaware computer shop in April 2019. That shop owner made all reasonable efforts to contact Biden, but was unsuccessful.
Under Delaware law, that abandoned property eventually became the legal property of the shop owner
One cannot maliciosly “Hack” one’s own, legally owned laptop.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

One cannot maliciosly “Hack” one’s own, legally owned laptop.

One can, actually. See, abandoning physical property is not the same as abandoning copyright interests (which is all but impossible anyway), and according to the DMCA bypassing any technological measure which limits access to copyrighted material is illegal (unless you have an exemption from the library of congress). So long as the laptop contained even a single bit of text, picture, video, music, computer code, etc. created by Hunter Biden, then bypassing the lock screen is “malicious hacking,” at least in a legal sense.

Aren’t laws grand?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

abandoning copyright interests (which is all but impossible anyway)

That’s not even close to true. The Creative Commons “CC0” license is quite effective, even in Europe, and the USA requires no tricky legalese at all. (For software, use 0BSD or MIT-0, which unlike CC0 do not limit themselves to copyright.)

I hereby place this comment into the public domain.

Of course, a laptop with gigabytes of data will almost certainly contain something still under copyright.

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Mike Masnick (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

well, according to NYTimes, there was no “Hacking” of that laptop. So Twitter invoking its no-hacked-material policy had no factual basis.

At the time of the release, at the point Twitter had to make that decision, there were multiple claims that it was hacked. Twitter made the decision based on that. That the NY Times later said otherwise is meaningless.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

You understand that you come across as a fanatic, right? You are a brighter bulb than Elon Musk? Your “nuanced” positions, like “there is only one truth, and that truth is mine” are what you want to cling to? Nuanced? How about radical departure from reality? That might be closer to a “fact”. Twitter was WRONG THEN (about Hunter Hacking). That’s a FACT. Twitter continues to be WRONG NOW, in the eyes of the WHOLE WORLD. Another fact. Numbers don’t lie. Fanatics don’t care about facts. They care about their own stupid ideas. Ipso facto el Miko.

Mike Masnick (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

I have faith that people can read and understand things. Not you, obviously, but others.

And, I said at the time that Twitter was wrong in its policy about the laptop. But unlike you, I understand why it happened, and it’s not the reason you said.

And “wrong” is an opinion, not a factual statement. Another thing that you’re literally wrong about.

So, yes, fanatics may not care about facts, but anyone can read this exchange and determine (quite easily) for themselves who is a “fanatic” and who actually cares about facts.

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BPaul (user link) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 Why the Rush

“At the time of the release, at the point Twitter had to make that decision, there were multiple claims that it was hacked. Twitter made the decision based on that.”

~

But why did Twitter have to make that decision so urgently if there were unverified multiple claims about the alleged Hacking ??

Why not wait a week or two until the facts were more clear ?

Cancelling the account of a major newspaper is a big deal.
The unnecessary “urgency” of that Twitter action rightly raises suspicion.
And the close proximity of the Presidential Election raises further suspicion on motives.

The assertion that Twitter ‘had to make that decision’ is purely opinion, not fact.

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Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:7

But why did Twitter have to make that decision so urgently if there were unverified multiple claims about the alleged Hacking ??

Why shouldn’t they? If all indications they had at the time was that the information came from a hack and contained personal information the right thing was to remove the post.

Why not wait a week or two until the facts were more clear ?

Why should Twitter leave personal information up that may have come from a hack? What if it was your information, do you think “wait and see” is a valid course of action?

Cancelling the account of a major newspaper is a big deal.

This tells me you actually don’t know shit of what actually happened which makes your argument worthless. Now go and educate yourself.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Cancelling the account of a major newspaper is a big deal.

What do you mean by “cancelling” in this regard? Because…

  • …if you mean “banning the account”, Twitter didn’t do that.
  • …if you mean “suspending the account temporarily”, Twitter didn’t do that (to my knowledge).
  • …if you mean “banning all discussion about the article from anyone on Twitter”, Twitter didn’t do that. (It didn’t even ban the link from being reposted, so far as I know.)

So please explain what you mean when you accuse Twitter of “cancelling the account of a major newspaper”. Be specific.

Lostinlodos (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

If you’d like a stronger approach it’s not so much that it was hacked, but I’d it was worth preserving anyway.
Be it the pentagon papers or the war dumps or the massive leak of NSA/USFIS malware.

The contents were widely reported to be a hack. Even FNC initially used that term. So the policy goes into affect rightfully.
The question is thus should the nature of source preclude posting of an item of public interest.
For all the public bombshells since “The Bomb” texts in the 50s? This is right on par with everything else.

The argument should not so much be the single case but that single cases exist.
Twitter et al have not had the same response to other hacked leaks such as those from wikileaks or DD.

What they chose to do is politically aligned and unethical. But legal.

What we should do is peacefully call them out on that.
What we should not do is change laws that force the loss of speech on a company for their occasional unethical behaviour.

Toom1275 (profile) says:

Re:

>such rules & policies ethically should not support a biased political agenda in a broad social media platform.

… said npbody who understands and supports freedom of speech, ever.

>TWITTER management obviously has a biased political agenda and actively discriminates against participants who may counter that agenda.

[Hallucinates facts not in evidence]

Matt Terenzio says:

Why rules different than real life?

Why does any company need moderation rules different than existing laws?

I agree that they have every legal right as a private company to moderate whatever they like.

But what would motivate moderating anything that is legal speech in a public park?

Only things I can think of are profit and politics.

Both aren’t 100% on the side of free speech, though not necessarily anti-speech either.

Thanks for the article though. Really dispels a bunch of false narratives out there.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

> Why does any company need moderation rules different than existing laws?

Let’s see you argue that someone should have the right to say the N-word on all social media platforms without consequence.

> But what would motivate moderating anything that is legal speech in a public park?

Moderation of online forums is, in essence, community curation. One community might be fine with anti-gay speech; another might not be. The law doesn’t (and shouldn’t) make both communities choose one or the other.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Yes I believe everyone should have the right to say nigger all day and all night and twice on sundays. Maybe you don’t live in America, but Musk and I do. Are you hurt? Are your tender feelings injured? I identify as Black (you support that concept) and when a Black says Nigger to another Black, it’s a term of endearment, Nigger.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

I know what you’re trying to do, but here’s the thing: I know the word is legal to say and I’ve never argued otherwise. What you want is the right to say it without facing consequences⁠—social, political, or even physical.

Nobody has that right. Nobody deserves that right. Nobody can put forth a good argument that says otherwise⁠; you won’t be the person who does.

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Mike Masnick (profile) says:

Re:

Why does any company need moderation rules different than existing laws?

Spam is legal in many cases. Should every website have to host all spam?

Hate speech is legal in the US. Should every website have to host hate speech?

Harassment and trolling is legal in most cases. Should every website have to host harassers and trolls? Even if they drive away users?

Anyone with any experience running a group or a forum or a club quickly learns that you need ground rules. That’s all content moderation rules are. They’re a set of ground rules for how that community acts. Don’t agree, don’t join.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Why does any company need moderation rules different than existing laws?

Because if a site can not set rules, it would not be possible to set up a web site that was child friendly, dedicated to LGBT issues, or the ways that cats train their owners, without the likes of Chosen insisting that they can use it to push their bigoted political opinions.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Are you Russian?

I don’t know who you might be, but you sure sound like you are Russian. The arguments about people not deserving any voice at all, without corporate approval, parallel exactly the arguments that Putin is making in Russia. Silencio. Now, or rapido, prison or worse.

Stop identifying with the Russians and start identifying with the Americans. Americans have better ideas. Ideas like “I may not agree with you, but I certainly support your right to express our ideas, even if I find them offensive or wrong headed or anything else.

So, tell the truth – who do you identify with – the American view of Free Speech, or the Russian autocratic (or Corporate) control of speech? Which side do you come down on?

Mike Masnick (profile) says:

Re:

I don’t know who you might be, but you sure sound like you are Russian.

Wut?

The arguments about people not deserving any voice at all

You clearly did not read the article, because I said no such thing.

Ideas like “I may not agree with you, but I certainly support your right to express our ideas, even if I find them offensive or wrong headed or anything else.

Which is exactly what I do support. But part of that support for basic free speech principles is that you are not owed an audience for your speech. You are free to set up your own space and speak as much as you want, and I will fight against any attempt by the government to suppress that speech. But you don’t get to commandeer private property for your own speech. That’s very much NOT an American ideal.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

IMHO, both you and Putin are on the wrong side of that argument. In America, unlike Russia, we practice tolerance of differing opinions. In America, unlike Russia, we promote individual voices of opposition opinion. We celebrate them. We even celebrate fanatics like you. You are just on the wrong side of the censorship argument. Witness the numerous comments censored on this very thread. Cowards, the lot of you.

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Mike Masnick (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

IMHO, both you and Putin are on the wrong side of that argument.

The idea that I’m on the same side of Putin on this issue suggests you are an ignorant troll.

In America, unlike Russia, we practice tolerance of differing opinions. In America, unlike Russia, we promote individual voices of opposition opinion. We celebrate them

That’s correct. And I agree with that sentiment. But that’s entirely different from saying that EVERY website must CARRY ALL SPEECH. Because that’s ignorant nonsense.

Witness the numerous comments censored on this very thread. Cowards, the lot of you.

Lol. You know fucking well that on just about any other site on the internet you wouldn’t even be allowed to comment. Be thankful that I actually do support what you pretend to support and allow nearly all comments here. The fact that people voted you down is just consequences. Deal with it.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Think about what Putin is saying: That Nazis have taken over Ukraine, and Russia is “liberating” the Ukrainians. If you publicly frame current events another way, in Russia, you go to prison.

Same here – if anyone frames any argument in terms you don’t like, you hide their speech. Slippery slope of intolerance and brutality follows – just read Stone and his hateful comments about hateful people.

Mike Masnick (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Same here – if anyone frames any argument in terms you don’t like, you hide their speech. Slippery slope of intolerance and brutality follows – just read Stone and his hateful comments about hateful people.

Having one platform say “that violates our rules, you cannot post it here” while you can still post it on just about any other website or create your own website… is not even remotely close to being thrown in the gulag, you ghoulishly stupid human being.

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Lostinlodos (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 You’re welcome

You know quite well I don’t subscribe to the “everywhere” idea you do.

Censorship can be tiny. Installing a filter on your home computer censors content access. It could be a platform. Such as deleting comments. It could be a country. Blocking web sites and ip ranges.

It can be self inflicted, er, implemented. Such as installing an advert blocker.
Or company initiated, such as through a tos that delete violations.

Your ability togo elsewhere shows only that the action is localised. Not that it didn’t exist. If it was accessible and by intentional intervention is no longer accessible at all, it has is censure.

I applaud TD for using a non-censoring approach to moderation.

However I frown upon anyone’s idea that censorship must be universal to count as censorship.

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Lostinlodos (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Take a look at your choice of words.
Ignorance?
Ignore?

I’m not the one who ignoring here.
You’re ability to go elsewhere doesn’t change the action taken.

Your too busy defending moderation choices to understand that recognising the opposition’s choice of weapon and turning it against them.

The correct response is not ‘no they don’t’!
The correct response is sure they do! It is their right to speech to not host just as much as yours to go elsewhere and point out what they did.

It was mr Stone who changed my mind on 230 with an educated set of replies.

A private entity’s right to censorship protects their liberty.
I would no more demand Darwin’s on the origin… or the liturgy of lite (satanic) be sold in a religious book store than demand the temple of set sell a bible or creation of man.

And a left wing media company should not be forced to host right wing communications any more the Viv.

Our ability to say or not say what we choose, and by extension choose what is or is not said publicly from our privacy,
Something that sets our country above most others.

Forced speech is just as evil as forced censorship.

The king of the castle has the right to make the rules of the castle kingdom. My right to disagree with the methodology doesn’t change that I stand behind the right to do so. To disagree or agree.

But we must recognise that private censorship is cutlet to maintaining true freedom of speech.

You have the right to ignore the proper use of the terminology as well. And I will continue to point out your inaccuracy.
You do free speech a disservice when you ignore the need to protect ons’s right to self censorship.

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Mike Masnick (profile) says:

Re:

Are you seriously proposing that the readers of this article should accept the position that you are more insightful, brilliant and on-point with regards to the legal and social issues surrounding Free Speech than Elon Musk?

I am proposing that this is the space that I have studied and worked in for over two decades. I don’t tell Elon Musk how to build rockets or electric vehicles.

I explained the nuances of my position. You should try to understand that rather than blindly lining up like a cultist.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

Are you seriously proposing that the readers of this article should accept the position that you are more insightful, brilliant and on-point with regards to the legal and social issues surrounding Free Speech than Elon Musk?

The fart I let out this morning after waking up was more insightful and brilliant in re: free speech than Elon Musk.

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Hyman Rosen says:

Babylon Bee

Twitter banned the Babylon Bee because they posted that they had given their Man of the Year award to Rachel Levine.

This means that Twitter has taken sides in the “transwomen are women” vs. “transwomen are men” debate. As a private company, it’s legal for them to do so, but taking legal actions does not mean that they are immune from criticism.

Silencing one side of a debate is absolutely contrary to the principles of free speech. Claiming that this is “hate speech” is hardly an excuse – trying to silence your opposition by calling them evil has always been something the enemies of free speech do.

Mike Masnick (profile) says:

Re:

No one said they’re immune from criticism. We just said that that decision does not go against the principles of free speech.

Silencing one side of a debate is absolutely contrary to the principles of free speech

I’m curious, “Hyman,” if that “one side” of the debate made the entire website unhospitable to the other side of that debate such that they leave, does that support the principles of free speech?

The principles of free speech mean that every entity has free association rights. Including Twitter.

There are a million other places online where the Babylon Bee can post whatever nonsense it wants.

NeilB says:

Re: Re: (admin sidenote)

There’s a high number of “flagged” comments in this thread
(“This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.”}

But when I CLICK to see it the flaged comments always remain hidden.

My browser is fully up to date. WordPress glitch ?

(also, how many members of the Community does it take to Flag a comment?)

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Hyman Rosen says:

Re: Re: Inhospitable So They Leave

In a robust debate, there will be insults and ridicule and mockery and hostility as well as polite dissent. That is the nature of issues that people feel strongly about, and it is also a way of making a point that cuts through obfuscating verbiage. Posting a suitable picture of Rachel Levine or a picture of Lia Thomas next to other members of the women’s swim team is highly effective for the “transwomen are men” side. And that is absolutely the nature of freedom of speech.

Now, Twitter can do whatever it wants. If it believes that it wants to create a warm and cuddly environment by banning the robust arguments of one side, so be it. But then it stops being a forum where people can debate important issues in a meaningful way, it stops being a forum where people can speak freely, and it is going to face legitimate criticism for that. The whole concept of “safe spaces” and “harm” is antithetical to free speech.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

If it believes that it wants to create a warm and cuddly environment by banning the robust arguments of one side, so be it. But then it stops being a forum where people can debate important issues in a meaningful way

If the crux of one’s argument is “fuck these people in particular”, that isn’t meaningful debate about any issue.

The whole concept of “safe spaces” and “harm” is antithetical to free speech.

So is forcing people to listen to dreck like “allies of trans people should be lined up against a wall and shot”, but I’m not seeing you decry that sort of bullshit.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

The whole concept of “safe spaces” and “harm” is antithetical to free speech.

No its not, so long as the speech is available to those interested in it, it is part of the debate. Just look at how much political debate is divided between different news sources on party lines.

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Hyman Rosen says:

Re: Re:

“Inhospitable”? Do you mean filled with opinions that do not bow down to radical leftists who seek to control what everyone says? Admit it, you police your site to hide any opinion that YOU don’t like. Evidence? This is YOUR site, you make the rules, then you lie about them. There is no “community” voting to hide opinions you don’t like. You and your friends just do what you want, hide what you want, and lie about it. There are 10+ years of your homogeneous “community” suppressing voices, and then LYING about it. Now you undoubtedly will LIE again, to protect your other LIES about your “community”. How long have you been doing this? 20 years? No electric cars, no space ships, no growth, no friends, only YOU using multiple fake names combined with blatant censorship to promote your radical leftist bullshit. And you want to compare yourself to ME? I already challenged Putin, and I challenge YOU TOO!

Mike Masnick (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

“Inhospitable”? Do you mean filled with opinions that do not bow down to radical leftists who seek to control what everyone says?

I meant exactly what I said, and your attempt to turn it into some sort of culture war is noted, and confirmed that you are not a serious person interested in actually exploring these issues. You’re trying to win points.

As for the rest of your unhinged comment, being a high school troller must be fun. One day, when you grow up, you’ll look back on these days with regret. What a waste.

Lostinlodos (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Perception and reality

Concerns of abuse are legitimate.
But the problem is buried under the hate.
Trans people aren’t raping men in women’s spaces. Rapists are raping.

That was my concern all along. Not that these rights were finally being granted but that they were being pushed without thought. Every freedom comes with responsibility.

The occurrences in Virginia show two issues. And neither is because of granted rights and freedoms.
The first is the lack of proper supervision in the schools.
The second was hiding not one, but 2! occurrences of assault/rape; likely to protect the movement.

More ability requires more vigilance.
I’d have more faith in those pushing the agenda, and yes, it is an agenda, in being capable if they had stuff in place to properly deal with situations.

The solution isn’t to revoke freedoms. It’s to hold accountable all involvement in crimes.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

Hopin’ Markdown works this time…

Twitter banned the Babylon Bee

No, it didn’t. It locked the people who run the account out of the account; if the account had been banned, you wouldn’t be able to see its tweets⁠—which you can.

Twitter has taken sides in the “transwomen are women” vs. “transwomen are men” debate.

And it’s the side that doesn’t alienate trans people. Imagine that~.

taking legal actions does not mean that they are immune from criticism

Who here has said that? Because I haven’t said that, and I haven’t seen anyone seriously suggest that.

Silencing one side of a debate is absolutely contrary to the principles of free speech.

Person A: “Trans rights are human rights!”

Person B: “Allies of trans people” — and I want to stress that this next bit is an actual quote from a former Mississippi lawmaker, which was said in the context I’m setting it in — “need to be lined up against wall before a firing squad to be sent to an early judgment.”

Twitter, per your logic: “We have to let both of these stand because they’re both valid political opinions.”

Some “opinions” and ideas aren’t⁠—or at least shouldn’t be⁠—up for debate. Your desire to force Twitter into hosting speech it doesn’t want to host (it deleted that tweet about the firing squad for violating Twitter rules) says a lot about you. None of it is good.

trying to silence your opposition by calling them evil has always been something the enemies of free speech do

Hey, so…

Which “side” is banning books out of fears about “Critical Race Theory” and going after the civil rights (and even lives) of trans people (and their allies) for being “groomers”? Which “side” is passing or putting forth bills designed to chill speech from school employees, e.g. the “Don’t Say Gay” bill in Florida? Which “side” is trying to force their speech onto platforms that already told them to fuck off?

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Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:3

When you say 3-5 years old, I can only come to the conclusions that you actually haven’t read the bill.

The thing about sexual education is that it must be all encompassing, if you specifically ban talking about something that actually is present in your society you are effectively trying deny that it exists.

The whole thing about “we don’t talk about that” when it comes to sexed is stupidly ridiculous because then it’s no longer sexed. In general, the US is so fucked up when it comes to sexed that there are actually adult people who don’t know what intercourse is.

Here we have a bill that actually is a form of censorship because it limits what can be teached to students. Tell me, why should we limit what is teached in schools determined by some arbitrary standard derived from religious nutters and hypocritical politicians?

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Hyman Rosen says:

Re: Re: Blasphemy

What you want are the anti-blasphemy laws that some countries have. You decide ahead of time who is right, and people who dispute that, and call out their opponents for their false beliefs, including using satire and ridicule, get silenced.

“Being nice to trans people” is like “being nice to people who think Jesus loves them”. Politeness should rule, but not when the beliefs are being debated. If someone wants to be called “Father” because it’s his professional title, fine. If someone wants to be called Father as a sign that his interlocutor affirms his beliefs, then he’s just Mr. Similarly, if a transwoman wants to use Ms., that’s fine, as long as use of that title is not a means of forcing people to affirm that a transwoman is a woman.

Schools should not be teaching the false ideas of creationism to little children, and schools should not be teaching the false ideas of woke gender ideology to little children. The woke overreach, always. Every time some aspect of the liberal agenda finally makes headway with the general public, as same-sex marriage did, the woke left thinks that now is finally the time where they can get everything they want. And they proceed to faceplant. So, critical race theory, defund the police, bail reform, support for illegal aliens, woke gender ideology, on and on, become the Hammer of Witches battering down the woke for another decade.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Politeness should rule, but not when the beliefs are being debated.

If your belief boils down to “this group of people should be treated like shit only because of who they are”, I’m not going to debate your belief⁠—I’m going to call you a bigot and tell you to fuck off.

forcing people to affirm that a transwoman is a woman

Can you name any law, statute, or “common law” court ruling that has ever forced anyone to affirm the gender identity of any trans person? Policies from social media companies about misgendering people don’t count.

woke gender ideology

Please define this term. Be as specific as possible.

The woke overreach, always.

And trying to ban books because they’re by or about people of color or queer people, that’s business as usual?

Every time some aspect of the liberal agenda finally makes headway with the general public, as same-sex marriage did, the woke left thinks that now is finally the time where they can get everything they want.

You sound as if you have an issue with same-sex marriage. Because the funny thing is, the “liberal agenda” wasn’t on the side of same-sex marriage until it was far more popular than it was when it was first legalized in one state. Also, please define “woke left”; be as specific as possible.

As for the rest of your grievances: Good lord, it’s practically a Conservative Bingo.

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Hyman Rosen says:

Re: Re: Re:2

I think legalizing same-sex marriage is terrific. Being gay, or straight for that matter, means having a preference for the sex of a romantic or sexual partner. When someone has such a preference, demonstrated by word and by action, there is no reason to tell them otherwise, nor to prevent them from marrying whomever they wish. We don’t tell people who profess to like vanilla ice cream and who seem to eat it with every evidence of enjoyment that they should prefer chocolate, and forbid them from ordering vanilla. (But also, people with such a preference who wish it were otherwise should be permitted to seek therapy to change, and not have it be forbidden.)

Woke gender ideology, however, insists that people can be a sex different from their physical bodies and that they can “know” that this is so and that there is gender that is different from sex. (This is the definition for which you asked.) All of that is false for a variety of reasons

This does not mean “treating trans people like shit”, any more than atheism means “treating religious people like shit”. Even the current Supreme Court has affirmed that trans people have the right to present and dress on the job in the stereotypical fashion of the sex they wish they were. People are allowed to believe whatever lies they like about themselves and behave accordingly. They just should not expect to have those beliefs affirmed by people who don’t share them.

There are numerous laws and policies in woke states requiring that transwomen be given entrance to women’s single-sex spaces, such as bathrooms and sports teams, whether or not the women already there want them. More casually, the medical profession has adopted woke gender terminology, so that medical intake forms now ask for “sex assigned at birth”, which means that people filling out those forms are being asked to passively affirm that there is such a thing as assigned gender, when there is not – one’s gender is observed and noted at birth (or often earlier), not assigned. Not “treating trans people like shit” does not mean trampling over the religious, social, and cultural beliefs of other people who do not believe in woke gender ideology. Muslims and Jews can choose not to eat bacon. They can’t force the cafeteria to stop serving it.

Whataboutism does not cancel out what the woke are doing. As a few examples, we have the cancellation of And To Think That I Saw It On Mulberry Street, the American Booksellers Association’s abject apology for distributing Irreversible Damage, Amazon’s refusal to sell When Harry Became Sally, and the attempts to disassociate J.K. Rowling from her work. Go to any organization that has adopted the woke Diversity, Inclusion, and Equity agenda (the ALA, the AMA, the ABA, …) and you will see page after page of indoctrination worthy of Communism at its lowest. In fact, Pennsylvania attempted to incorporate the ABA’s woke ideology into a legal requirement for lawyers to affirm, until a court just threw it out.

Conservative Bingo includes marking spaces on ballots, so I would be less cavalier if I were you.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

people with such a preference who wish it were otherwise should be permitted to seek therapy to change, and not have it be forbidden

Bans on the psychological and physical torture known as “conversion ‘therapy’ ” are typically limited to banning the practice on minors (only the ban in Washington, D.C. applies to adults). “Conversion ‘therapy’ ” is bullshit anyway; you can’t change being gay or bi or (or straight) any more than you can change your race or age. Someone can torture themselves (or have others torture them) into suppressing those feelings, sure, but they can’t flip a switch on their queerness.

Woke gender ideology, however, insists that people can be a sex different from their physical bodies and that they can “know” that this is so and that there is gender that is different from sex.

You’ve never interacted with a trans person outside of calling them “woke gender terrorists” or somesuch, have you, Squidward?

They just should not expect to have those beliefs affirmed by people who don’t share them.

Queer people tolerate the existence of anti-queer bigots; the least those bigots could do is offer that same tolerance instead of trying to push trans people out of the public sphere and back into the closet (or into the grave).

There are numerous laws and policies in woke states requiring that transwomen be given entrance to women’s single-sex spaces, such as bathrooms and sports teams, whether or not the women already there want them.

Define “woke states”. Then present ten examples of such laws. Then tell me if those laws have created any actual issues that transphobic bigots like to claim they have (e.g., a rash of sexual assaults by cisgender men claiming to be transgender for the sake of getting into women’s restrooms).

You seem to have a problem with those laws. Let’s all see you prove that they’re actually as problematic as you seemingly want everyone to believe.

Not “treating trans people like shit” does not mean trampling over the religious, social, and cultural beliefs of other people who do not believe in woke gender ideology.

Transphobes are free to believe whatever they want about trans people. But their rights should absolutely end where a trans person’s rights begin. That includes the right to exist in the public sphere, just as a cis woman wearing pants has the right to do the same despite people believing that women shouldn’t be wearing pants in public.

Whataboutism does not cancel out what the woke are doing.

But it does equivocate anti-POC/anti-queer book bannings led by conservatives to trans people merely trying to exist in a world that is openly hostile to their existence⁠—as if both situations should be either condemned or condoned in tandem.

As a few examples, we have the cancellation of And To Think That I Saw It On Mulberry Street, the American Booksellers Association’s abject apology for distributing Irreversible Damage, Amazon’s refusal to sell When Harry Became Sally, and the attempts to disassociate J.K. Rowling from her work.

How does any of those prevent someone from speaking their mind? How does any of that prevent anti-trans bigots from believing their bigoted bullshit?

you will see page after page of indoctrination worthy of Communism at its lowest

Yes, because diversity by way of the inclusion of voices/people who’ve long been marginalized is 100% the same thing as the government owning the means of production~. 🙄

I would be less cavalier if I were you.

Make me, bitch.

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Hyman Rosen says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Sealioning? Look up the laws for yourself if you’re interested.

Societies have religious, cultural, and social beliefs about gender segregation and nudity taboos. Those beliefs don’t have to be rational or true. They exist nevertheless, and woke gender ideologues do not get to declare them void to satisfy the delusions of mentally ill people who believe they are something they are not. If transwomen want to enter real women’s single-sex spaces, they need permission from the owners or from the women who are already there. Or they can try to force themselves in via laws in woke states, and discover that they are forced out by laws in other states.~

As an example of cultural taboos, a huge number of teen sex romp movies over decades feature men who will use any stratagem they can think of, including dressing as women, to invade women’s spaces in order to see strange women in the nude. We also have the cultural stereotype of the subway flasher and dick-pic sender reinforcing the belief that men want strange women to see them naked. Correspondingly, many women adopt those cultural taboos and avoid being seen naked by strange men and seeing strange men naked. Having a man insist that he’s really a woman and demand entrance to women’s spaces where he and they may be nude precisely plays into those taboos. Woke gender ideologues can try to convince people that this case is different, but using force will backfire badly.

“Make me”

Um, no? Be cavalier if you want?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Sealioning? Look up the laws for yourself if you’re interested.

Eh, it’s more akin to an inverse Gish Gallop than sealioning. And if you’re so interested in bringing up and defending those laws, you should shoulder the responsibility of citing them.

Societies have religious, cultural, and social beliefs about gender segregation and nudity taboos. Those beliefs don’t have to be rational or true. They exist nevertheless, and woke gender ideologues do not get to declare them void to satisfy the delusions of mentally ill people who believe they are something they are not.

By the same notion, people who hold those beliefs don’t (or at least shouldn’t) get to force them on trans people. If a trans person can coexist in the same space as a cis person without mass hysteria and waves of violent crime breaking out, why the fuck can’t a cis person be expected to coexist in the same space as a trans person without trying to drive that trans person out of the public sphere (or into a fresh grave)?

Or they can try to force themselves in via laws in woke states, and discover that they are forced out by laws in other states.

Trans people who can afford to move out of “red” states would do so long before they ever get killed for being in “cis spaces” within those states. They know where they’re not wanted.

But this does raise a curious point. Assume for a moment that a transgender man is forced by law to use the women’s restroom, since⁠—as you seem so insistent on pointing out⁠—a trans man was born a woman. Now assume that said trans man looks like an adult cis man, such that you can’t tell if that trans man is transgender. Given that any given person on Earth is likely to use at least one public restroom in their lifetimes, which restroom should that trans man use: the one that aligns with their biological sex or the one that aligns with their gender identity? For the purposes of this hypothetical, there are no gender-neutral restrooms available, and you can’t legally prevent the trans man from using one restroom or the other. Please also take into account the high likelihood of negative consequences if that trans man⁠—who you will insist is biologically female⁠—enters the women’s restroom while cisgender women are using it.

a huge number of teen sex romp movies over decades feature men who will use any stratagem they can think of, including dressing as women, to invade women’s spaces in order to see strange women in the nude

And while that was good for a laugh back in the day, it’s no longer considered so. Hell, the original Revenge of the Nerds⁠—a horny screwball college comedy in the vein of Animal House that some still hail as a classic in the genre⁠—features a scene that, in modern times, is widely considered to depict a rape. Times change, tastes and moral attitudes change.

But here’s the thing you’re not seemingly keen on answering: Has the rise in the number of transgender people living openly in the public sphere led to a rash of crimes along the lines of the situation you describe? I’m willing to bet it hasn’t, and I’m willing to bet any source you’d cite that says otherwise is more full of shit than you.

We also have the cultural stereotype of the subway flasher and dick-pic sender reinforcing the belief that men want strange women to see them naked.

Those people are rightfully seen as creeps and decried as such by decent people. Also, the existence of such creeps has nothing to do with trans people existing.

Having a man insist that he’s really a woman and demand entrance to women’s spaces where he and they may be nude precisely plays into those taboos.

Can you cite anything that says the existence of transgender people in the public sphere has led to a rise of cisgender men trying to “play trans” so they can get access to women’s spaces? Because I’ll be inclined to think you believe all trans people⁠—and yes, that includes trans men⁠—are sexual predators who try to rape cis women at any given opportunity. Admitting you believe that bullshit won’t improve your standing with me, a queer cis man who believes trans rights are human rights, but you’re still free to do so. Y’know, for whatever it’s worth to you.

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Hyman Rosen says:

Re: Re: Re:6

You may not be surprised to learn that I don’t care how I stand in your esteem.

I would go so far as to say that there are no cases of men choosing to be trans in order to deliberately enter women’s spaces. (There have been cases of transwomen put into women’s prisons who have raped female inmates.) As I said, taboos don’t have to be based on reality in order to exist and be felt. After all, being trans is also not a matter of physical reality but of mental illness, and yet you and other woke gender ideologues insist that transwomen are women.

I think the one place where bad motives can sometimes be ascribed is in transwomen choosing to play on women’s sports teams. We know from endless doping scandals and other forms of cheating that there are people for whom being declared a winner is the only important thing, not playing by the rules. Not that they choose to become transwomen in order to win, but already being trans, decide to take advantage of their male bodies to dominate.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

You may not be surprised to learn that I don’t care how I stand in your esteem.

And yet, here you are.

I would go so far as to say that there are no cases of men choosing to be trans in order to deliberately enter women’s spaces.

Can you pick out the one word up there that exposes your anti-trans bigotry?

being trans is also not a matter of physical reality but of mental illness, and yet you and other woke gender ideologues insist that transwomen are women

Would you prefer we berate them into suicide?

Not that they choose to become transwomen in order to win, but already being trans, decide to take advantage of their male bodies to dominate.

In a recent veto of an anti-trans bill aimed at “protecting” high school athletics from being (as you might put it) “dominated” by transgender athletes, Utah Gov. Spencer Cox⁠ (a Republican!) noted that of the 75,000 students playing in high school sports, only 4 are transgender, and only 1 of them⁠—only a single transgender athlete⁠—competes in girls’ sports. (The veto was overridden, which I’m sure you’re happy about.) I expect that if you looked into high school, collegiate, semi-pro, and professional athletics on a national level, you’d see similar numbers/ratios for trans athletes.

So I have another hypothetical for you. (Also, don’t think I failed to notice that you avoid answering my hypothetical about public restroom usage.) If a trans male teen wants to participate in high school wrestling, should they be made to compete in female wrestling or male wrestling?

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Hyman Rosen says:

Re: Re: Re:8 Sports

A transman should not be allowed on any competitive sports team if she has taken hormones to modify her body, because we do not allow athletes who have taken body-altering drugs to compete.

Lia Thomas is a man currently dominating women’s swimming in his team’s category. If, as you say, there are hardly any trans athletes competing, then perhaps woke gender ideologues have nothing to worry about laws against it. But of course their aim is to force affirmation that men can be women.

As far as “forcing trans people into suicide”, it remains the case that people with mental illness are not entitled to force people around them to affirm their delusions, any more than anyone else is entitled to force the people around them to affirm their beliefs. And of course the physical universe does not care in the slightest for people’s beliefs, so even if you are wrapped in a cocoon of affirmation, you will always be the gender of your body.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Lia Thomas is a man currently dominating women’s swimming in his team’s category.

Ah, I see we’ve gotten to the “intentional malicious misgendering” portion of your mask slipping away. What’s next, the “groomers” argument?

Also, would you rather Lia Thomas compete in men’s swimming despite presenting as a woman, in which case she would likely face increased scrutiny and and a higher chance of violence? Or would you prefer she leave the public sphere and kill herself?

But of course their aim is to force affirmation that men can be women.

It’s funny that you have this worry, but it never goes in the opposite direction. That reeks of the old “queer men are all sexual predators and pedophiles” canard that, once it fell out of favor in attacking gay men, became a go-to argument against trans women. (It’s also starting to come back into vogue for attacking gay people in general, thanks to transphobic fuckwits like you.)

As far as “forcing trans people into suicide”

None of what comes after this tells me you have a problem with the idea of transphobes haranguing and harassing trans people into suicide. I’m not surprised or disappointed, though. Both would require me to have not seen any of this bullshit before.

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Lostinlodos (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

and that there is gender that is different from sex

Do note they are not one and the same.

have created any actual issues that transphobic bigots like to claim they have

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/northern-virginia/teen-accused-of-sexual-assaults-in-2-virginia-high-schools/2831314/

It leaves out this boy was a “trans” girl allowed by the school to use women’s facilities.

https://www.womenarehuman.com/2nd-girl-raped-in-school-restroom-by-transgender-fellow-student-furious-dad-arrested/

But that’s despite the fact that I think we should all piss, shite and fuck in public. That marriage and monogamy are counter to the vast majority of nature and that inter-sexual relationships are equal to intra-sexual ones.

I blame the conservative stance on relations and taboos as the principal cause for such actions. If consensual sexuality were treated with respect and people weren’t defined by what holes they do or do not prefer we wouldn’t have nearly the sexual crime problems we do.

This despite my beliefs that those who are guilty of unwilling sexual assaults should have their parts cut off and sown up. And then be stoned to death by the victims.

Sexual security and sexual rights are things I take seriously.
But society here is not open enough in relations to dingdongs and hohos to go that far that fast.
Because sexual assaults are made easier in these cases.

nasch (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

What I’ve never understood is why people like you want trans men to use the women’s restroom. This guy, for example:

https://www.npr.org/2015/04/19/400826487/transgender-man-leads-mens-health-cover-model-contest

That’s who you want in the bathroom with your daughter, wife, sister, or you if you’re a woman? Why?

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Hyman Rosen says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Why? As long as we have single-gender restrooms, then by law or custom, people should use the restroom of the sex they are, not the sex they want to be. That may lead to some awkward situations, but that happens when you choose to step out of categories that include almost everyone.

Alternatively, trans activists can try to convince enough people that pretend gender should control which bathroom gets used. And trans people who look sufficiently like the gender they want to be can just unethically go to the wrong bathroom and assume that no one will notice.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

trans people who look sufficiently like the gender they want to be can just unethically go to the wrong bathroom and assume that no one will notice

What would you say if they go into the restroom you demand they go in and have violence visited upon them as a result⁠? Or would you not even care about anti-trans violence, as your posts tend to imply?

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Hyman Rosen says:

Re: Re: Re:6 Violence

The people who commit such violence should be arrested. If they have criminals records, they should not be released either in nail out their own recognizance. And if they are convicted and this is the third or higher time they have been convicted, they should remain in prison for the rest of their lives

However, fear is not the sole determinant of policy. If going to the bathroom might be dangerous, it is the responsibility of the owners of the space to provide safety. Similarly, the threats that woke gender activists make that trans people will kill themselves unless their false beliefs are affirmed by everyone around them also does not control policy. People who threaten suicide brad to be institutionalized and treated until they are no longer a danger to themselves.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

If going to the bathroom might be dangerous, it is the responsibility of the owners of the space to provide safety.

They can do that by allowing trans people to use the restroom that aligns with their gender identity rather than forcing trans people to use the other restroom and potentially subjecting said trans people to violence.

the threats that woke gender activists make that trans people will kill themselves unless their false beliefs are affirmed by everyone around them also does not control policy

“Why? Because fuck ’em, that’s why!”

If your policy is to let trans people kill themselves rather than find ways to help them, you and your policy are shit.

People who threaten suicide [need] to be institutionalized and treated until they are no longer a danger to themselves.

I don’t expect that gender-affirming treatment is a part of that equation, at least for you.

Dude, come out and own your transphobia already. Using a phrase like “woke gender activists”⁠—which means nothing and everything, making them vague bullshit that is worth less than actual bullshit⁠—only masks your hatred in such a way that you can claim not to hate trans people when you actually do hate trans people. I mean, given how hard you’re pushing anti-trans talking points like “institutionalize suicidal trans people for being tra—I mean, suicidal” and “but what about public toilets”, you’re giving away most of the game as it is. I promise that if you come right out and admit you hate trans people, I won’t think any less of you than I already do.

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Lostinlodos (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 History?

Sounds to me more like someone who’s mad at themselves for something.

It’s one thing for people like me who recognise banging people over the head with any idea or philosophy isn’t the best approach. Whilst recognising society should change. (It should). And disagree on how to bring about that change.

But it’s well believed that those who flat out hate have something in themselves that they are pushing that hate away from.

Are you afraid of fags or are you afraid you may be one? That type of situation is all to common.

I wonder what the poster fears, in reality.

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Hyman Rosen says:

Re: Re: Re:8 Hatred

Woke activists like to couch opposition as hatred because it lets them pretend that there are not actual arguments being made against them.

It is physically impossible, now or for the foreseeable future, to change a man into a woman. A person only has access to their own mind, so it is impossible for a person to “know” that they are anything but themselves. There is no “male mind” or “female mind” for someone to “know” that they are “a man” or “a woman”. To the extent that men or women have anything in common, it is through common physical aspects, which a person of the opposite sex will never experience; a man will never menstruate, become pregnant or worry about pregnancy, give birth, breastfeed, experience menopause, or worry about breast or ovarian cancer. Believing things about yourself that are manifestly untrue is a sign of mental illness – schizophrenics believing their auditory hallucinations are real voices, anorexics believing that a bite of food will make them obese, paranoiacs believing that the government is monitoring their brainwaves. Believing that your mind has been placed in a wrong body is no different. It is merely that woke gender ideologues have decided that this delusion is to be treated as true. Judge Jackson, for example, refused to say what is a woman because “she is not a biologist”.

I don’t hate trans people, and if, in consultation with their doctors, they determine that living their best life involves costuming, medication, and surgery to cosplay the gender they wish they were, that’s fine with me. My hatred, such as it is, is reserved for the woke gender activists who insist that everyone else must affirm these delusions. I feel the same way about conservative religious activists who try to force schools to teach creationism. You are entitled to believe lies, but any attempts to force other people to affirm lies must be fought and countered. Forcing people to believe lies is the death of civilization. Woke gender ideology is the ivermectin of the left.

Lostinlodos (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

Based on tMC
https://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/mayo-clinic-minute-men-can-get-breast-cancer/
It’s 8% US.

Countries whitish higher smoking rates tend to report higher results. India, pe, has around 15-17% male per year.
China remains one of the heaviest tobacco consumers perann and doesn’t report statistics well.
When you add new reports per year and subtract concurrent “regression” rates youbwind up with between 12%-14% male population per year having it. 13% avg. based on reported rates alone.

Sorry… you’re wrong there.
You mistake environmental risk (lower in males) with genetic risk, which like all genetics is a minimal 33.3% Apx risk of genetic passage on the less than accurate 2:1 dominance vs recessive scale. And has nothing to do with actual sex.

Even if your numbers were accurate, and they are not, men have, and should, reason for close monitoring. Over 200,000 men per year call out that line of bull.

Here’s another biological fallacy of yours!!!
Men can lactate
https://www.breastfeedingbasics.com/qa/can-men-breastfeed

. They have the exact same breast makeup as women. Just smaller.
You’re off on a tangent that kills any sense of reason for your argument.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Woke activists like to couch opposition as hatred because it lets them pretend that there are not actual arguments being made against them.

I’ve heard all your “arguments”. They’re equally as shitty now as they were back when they were being used to decry gay people living out and proud in the public sphere.

Also, please define “woke activists”. Be specific and thorough.

A person only has access to their own mind, so it is impossible for a person to “know” that they are anything but themselves.

They can know that they don’t feel right as the gender they were assigned at birth. They can know that presenting as the gender they feel most comfortable presenting as can ease their dysphoria. They can know a lot of things about themselves⁠—even though you seem to believe trans people are so mentally ill that they’re intellectually disabled.

Believing things about yourself that are manifestly untrue is a sign of mental illness

I rest my case, Your Honor.

woke gender ideologues have decided that this delusion is to be treated as true

What would you prefer they do, harangue trans people into suicide? Because, once again, you seem to take no issue with the idea of harassing trans people into killing themselves.

I don’t hate trans people

You could’ve fooled me, given that you’re one step removed from referring to them with an ableist slur for the intellectually disabled.

if, in consultation with their doctors, they determine that living their best life involves costuming, medication, and surgery to cosplay the gender they wish they were, that’s fine with me

Again: Could’ve fooled me, considering how you used “cosplay” there and⁠—hey, here’s a connector to an earlier comment!⁠—“choosing” when you talked about “men choosing to be trans” in re: the idea of cis men entering women’s restrooms.

My hatred, such as it is, is reserved for the woke gender activists who insist that everyone else must affirm these delusions.

Again: Do you want “woke gender activists” (whatever the fuck that means) to harass trans people to death by constantly berating them for being trans/gender non-conforming? Because you keep saying that you’re fine with trans people, but then you say shit like that and it feels like your real feelings are slipping through.

You are entitled to believe lies, but any attempts to force other people to affirm lies must be fought and countered.

If you can, please name any laws that explicitly and unequivocally force anyone to accept, as a matter of belief both religious and secular, a transgender person’s preferred gender identity. Be specific and cite sources.

Woke gender ideology is the ivermectin of the left.

You don’t even know what “woke gender ideology” means. It’s a right-wing buzzword you picked up from some garbage human who was using it to snipe at people you already hated. I doubt the person you picked that shit up from even knows what it means⁠—because it can mean basically anything you want it to mean. Hell, it can mean “anti-patriarchy feminist women” from a certain point of view.

If you’re going to decry people you hate for doing something you hate, at least have the brass balls necessary to do it with terminology that has more meaning than your last shit.

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Hyman Rosen says:

Re: Re: Re:10

The sealioning is strong with this one.

Woke gender ideology comprise the false beliefs that sex and gender are different, that a person can have a sex other than that of their body, that a person can change their sex, and that people must be forced to affirm these beliefs.

This is not a matter of hatred, any more than knowing and declaring that gods don’t exist means hatred towards religious people. That people can become so fixed in their delusions that they perceive dissent as hatred is their own problem.

NYC explicitly enforces woke gender ideology: https://www1.nyc.gov/site/cchr/law/legal-guidances-gender-identity-expression.page

“The NYCHRL requires that people be permitted to use single-gender facilities, such as restrooms or locker rooms, and to participate in single-gender programs, that most closely align with their gender, regardless of their gender expression, sex assigned at birth, anatomy, medical history, or the sex or gender indicated on their identification. Covered entities that have single-occupancy restrooms should make clear that they can be used by people of all genders.”

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

This is not a matter of hatred

Everything you’ve said up to this point leads me to believe otherwise, given how⁠—and I hate having to use an ableist slur here, and I’m sorry for doing it, but I think it’s the only way I’ll get through your thick skull⁠—you’ve been talking about trans people as if they’re all mentally retarded.

NYC explicitly enforces woke gender ideology

Everything in that law is about letting trans people live their public lives in relative peace. Nothing in that law forces anyone to accept, as a matter of belief both religious and secular, a transgender person’s preferred gender identity. The law is enforcing tolerance of trans people⁠ existing in public—just the same as a law legalizing same-sex marriage is enforcing tolerance of gay people getting married.

Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:11

Woke gender ideology comprise the false beliefs that sex and gender are different

Well, as I mentioned earlier – you don’t know jack shit about sexual dimorphism and gender identity. You are of course free to make an ass of yourself denying what medical science tells us about it.

Here a link so you can educate yourself better: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7139786/

Here’s a little quote from the above article:
Furthermore, the popular explanation that there is a female and a male brain on the base of gender behavioural differences is not supported by a strong empirical background

And wait until someone explain Klinefelter syndrome to you, it’ll blow your brain.

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Hyman Rosen says:

Re: Re: Re:12 Bodies

Of course there’s no such thing as a “male brain” or “female brain” (except for gross average physical size, maybe?) Stereotypical gendered behavior is a product of both the physical attributes members of each sex have in common and social convention.

XXY and other genetic and developmental abnormalities are the result of evolution throwing things at the wall for millions of years and having some things stick. If you are suggesting that there are physical tests that will determine whether someone will be trans, I expect that the woke gender ideologues here will hate you more than they do me.

Toom1275 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

Woke gender ideology comprise the false beliefs that sex and gender are different, that a person can have a sex other than that of their body, that a person can change their sex, and that people must be forced to affirm these beliefs.

Ah, so it’s something that does not exist outside of the deranged hallucinations of the mentally ill such as yourself, got it.

Samuel Abram (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 re: All-Gender Bathrooms

There are numerous laws and policies in woke states requiring that transwomen be given entrance to women’s single-sex spaces, such as bathrooms and sports teams,

That’s the reality in NYC, and it’s actually beneficial for cis people as well. Single-stall bathrooms which used to be divided into a male and female bathroom became two all-gender bathrooms. Here’s how that’s better: Let’s say you’re a man (like myself), in the past (or in Tokyo pre-pandemic), if there were a man occupying the men’s room, you’d be out of luck if you had to go to the bathroom if you were a man. Now, you could just go to the other bathroom. We also have a system currently like this in our own homes. That being said, bathrooms where there are multiple stalls are still divided by gender.

Maybe seeing the reality of how such a system would work would overcome your fears if you think such a system wouldn’t work.

freelunch (profile) says:

Musk's proposal is (surprise!) confused

The proposal seems entirely confused. This is as anyone who understands what “censorship” means would forecast.

Mr. Musk’s friend asked: “Would you consider building a new social media platform, @elonmusk? One that would consist an open source algorithm, one where free speech and adhering to free speech is given top priority, one where propaganda is very minimal. I think that kind of a platform is needed.” Mr. Musk replies: “Am giving serious thought to this”

How, precisely, do you make “propaganda … vey minimal” on your platform? By giving “adhering to free speech … top priority?” Wake up Mr. Musk, many of your users want “free speech” so they can post propoganda.

Whether or not Mr. Musk’s goals are desirable, they are infeasible. They will not be realized.

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Lostinlodos (profile) says:

If you build it…

Twitter and other social media companies are too aggressive in their moderation practices

Those of us who are actually fans of free speech, not political hacks being locally censored, have a long wait.

Removing illegal content isn’t moderation, it’s acting on the restrictions of law. With that out of the way we can continue.

What many of use look for is a place that will leave political speech alone. All all sides to battle it out in debate.
The problem today is big groups that run social media always have some form of bias in political methodology that will hinder the opposition. Be it twitter or truth or whatever.

But the idea that unmoderated service will be ignored is inaccurate.
CIS existed for 30 years with uncensored forums. Moderation, per se, involved moving stuff to categories where the content “belonged”.

And as much as people dump on the squares and chans, they have millions of users and many have real interactive discussions along side the spam and advertising and trolling and crap.

What’s missing is someone with the money and will:
To build a service in public that used CIS’s categorisation for moderation and the chan’s idea of anything goes.

Such a utopian thought could work if anyone actually wanted to supply it.

Sadly politics get in the way the first time someone posts a furry.
Flag it as porn so it gets moved, and move on.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
nasch (profile) says:

Re:

Such a utopian thought could work if anyone actually wanted to supply it.

It’s almost like you didn’t read the whole article…

“Gab claimed that, and then couldn’t find enough users to actually want to stick around its cesspool. Then there was Parler, which initially claimed that it would only moderate based on the 1st Amendment, but then started just making up its own rules on who to ban (and its then CEO even bragged about “banning leftist trolls”) once it realized that such a standard makes no sense. Or how about GETTR, set up by a former Trump advisor, that still pretends to be about free speech, but bans accounts of anyone who mocks one of its biggest investors. And, of course, there’s now Trump’s own Truth Social, which makes clear it will ban users for making fun of Trump, and has already banned people for mocking its CEO, Devin Nunes?”

Over and over, conservatives try to set up a “this time free speech for real” site, and over and over it doesn’t work.

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Joshy says:

Again those pro censorship texts?

“But you would also know that no website that accepts user content can stand to not do some moderation. If you do none at all, not only will you face legal problems (child sexual abuse material, copyright infringement, etc.), but your service will turn into a cesspool of spam, abuse, and harassment, driving users away.”

No free speech absolutist that I know of calls for breaking the law which, as we know, restricts speech in many ways. No one expects Musk’s new platform to break the law.

Any free speech absolutist acknowledge that content neutral restrictions on “time, place and manner” are consistent with free speech absolutism.

Pro censorship writers like to blend those legal and technical necessities with political censorship, calling it all “legitimate moderation”.

“If you force companies to host “all” speech, then you run into a series of problems. First, the spam, garbage and harassment problem. And this actually harms “the principles of free speech” by causing lots of people to go away and not take part. But by allowing the wider internet to exist, and allowing different companies or groups to set up their own rules and their own enforcement mechanisms, that actually enables more of a culture of free speech because people can vote with their feet and find the spaces where the are able to speak and where they are most comfortable.”

No one thinks that in Musk’s new platform you have to follow everyone and listen to everyone. Don’t like Musk? Unfollow, block or mute him, presonally. But censorship is all about Person A interfering to prevent Person B from hearing Person C. I see no reason that people would leave a platform because they want other people to censor for them in advance the content they choose to see.

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Rocky says:

Re:

Pro censorship writers like to blend those legal and technical necessities with political censorship, calling it all “legitimate moderation”.

Name any mainstream social media that practices political censorship while calling it “legitimate moderation”, and give specific examples of such behavior.

No one thinks that in Musk’s new platform you have to follow everyone and listen to everyone. Don’t like Musk? Unfollow, block or mute him, presonally.

You are missing the point, any social media platform must moderate out of necessity, otherwise they quickly run into the “worst people problem”. People don’t want to wade through dreck to find something interesting which is why social media try to curate their content to appeal to the largest audience possible. There are some platforms that are the exceptions to this, but none of them are attractive to main-stream users.

But censorship is all about Person A interfering to prevent Person B from hearing Person C. I see no reason that people would leave a platform because they want other people to censor for them in advance the content they choose to see.

But that’s not what the issue is at all and has never been. What we hear from certain groups is that the “platforms” are “censoring” and the solution they propose is to force platforms to carry speech they don’t want to be associated with. And people will leave or ignore a platform if they have to wade through stuff that doesn’t appeal to them.

Querral says:

Protocols not platforms

Just as every other time the “protocols not platforms” argument comes up, I’d like to point out that this is already happening. The Fediverse may not boast Twitter’s user count, but it does exist, is still going strong, and has a broad spectrum of server software making it up.

Mastodon and Pleroma are Twitterlikes, Pixelfed is going for something more like what Flickr used to be, Peertube is built on video sharing, and a whole mess of others doing their own thing. And because they all implement the same protocols, they all talk to each other.

Hyman Rosen says:

Cancel Culture

Stepping away from the TERF stuff for a moment, here’s the recent cancel culture episode at Yale Law School described in detail, along with some administration response. It almost goes without saying that the students involved will not face any consequences for their actions.

https://davidlat.substack.com/p/yale-law-dean-heather-gerken-speaks

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Hyman Rosen says:

Re: Re: If The Tables Were Turned

Of course I would object if the situation were reversed and conservatives were trying to shut down liberals from speaking. Freedom of speech is for everyone.

Here’s an example from 2020: https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/ohio/ohio-secretary-of-state-urges-kent-state-university-to-cancel-jane-fonda-event/95-519d0150-24b4-4725-96ec-2ae8224b5cd5

The Ohio Secretary of State tried to get Kent State University to cancel a Jane Fonda speaking event.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Of course I would object if the situation were reversed and conservatives were trying to shut down liberals from speaking.

Every example of “cancel culture” that you’ve presented thus far has been about “left-leaning” people/entities trying to shut down “right-leaning” people/entities from speaking, so forgive me if I think your claim is bullshit. You’ve given me little reason to believe otherwise.

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Hyman Rosen says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Believe Me Or Don't

I don’t care what you believe, but if you won’t accept my answer, why did you bother asking? It would save everybody time if you just made up my side in your imaginary conversation.

FWIW, I am also adamantly opposed to conservatives trying to remove QUILTBAG+ and critical race theory books from public libraries, no matter how woke those books may be. People should reject ideas when they’re stupid, not because someone isn’t letting those ideas be read.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

I don’t care what you believe

And yet, here you are.

I am also adamantly opposed to conservatives trying to remove QUILTBAG+ and critical race theory books from public libraries

Given that you’re both using the anti-queer “QUILTBAG” insult and implying that any book about race automatically qualifies as a “critical race theory book”, I’m thinking you’re not as opposed to such books being removed from libraries as you’d like me to believe.

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Hyman Rosen says:

Re: Re: Re:4

I am here because arguing is fun. I don’t care whether you believe what I say, but saying that you’re wrong is part of the fun, and wrong ideas should be challenged in every venue that still allows all sides to speak.

If QUILTBAG+ is an insult, it’s not an anti-queer insult but an anti-woke insult, as the woke ideologues pile on the letters, not to mention all the extra colors in the new pride flag. Nothing is as much fun as sticking a pin into the balloon of the self-righteous.

Not every book about race is a critical race theory book. That’s just silly.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

I don’t care whether you believe what I say

…says the guy who is trying to convince me that he’s telling the truth.

If QUILTBAG+ is an insult, it’s not an anti-queer insult but an anti-woke insult

To-may-to, to-mah-to.

Nothing is as much fun as sticking a pin into the balloon of the self-righteous.

Yes, yes, owning the libs gets you off sexually. We get it.

Lostinlodos (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 No…seriously

Gas that seriously gone bad over there?
It’s still in use in the US. By us.

If, for whatever reason, that’s gone off the edge I’ll take your word for it. But it’s good to know. Maybe you could point somewhere I could point to for friends and eventually the word will spread so we don’t cause any undo crossing to our friends over the pond.

Lostinlodos (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

STS I believe is from the UK or somewhere in Europe.
So it really may be different over there.
The term is ours. First time I heard it was a (I think) TED talk lecture.

The store I linked has been around for some time. Despite my aggression in the second reply, it wasn’t mean.
I just have a problem with the idea of outsiders defending a ‘group’ what is and is not offensive without bothering to look at the whole of the group.

What the exchange here shows is the idea of protectionism by outsiders is often full of flaws.

It’s clear Hyman Rosen is not a member of this group. And has some troubling ideas. Though I doubt there was actual malice in use of the term.

Too often in politicised ideas the defenders are just as wrong as the culprit.

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Allan Smith says:

Free speech

Elon should be able tell the difference between an opinion on the corner and information shared and reshared and reenforced by mass communication platforms. Its a different thing alltogether at those levels. Information so easily shared en mass is a tool that can be leveraged to the point of action be it good or bad. Dont elevate your thinking enough to whitewash away simple truths. Bad people with bad intentions should not be given an opportunity impart their will to millions at a time. 909 people in Jonestown were convinced to drink poisen by a person whos only tools were a pulpit and a captive audience. A lie told a thousand times becomes fact. At least for some. And really, truly bad people should not be given a voice that can reach soo many, so easily.

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