The ‘Culture Of Free Speech’ Includes Criticism Of Others’ Speech; Get Over It
from the that's-not-how-any-of-this-works dept
Over the last few years we’ve seen this ongoing bizarre infatuation with “cancel culture” despite little evidence to suggest that it’s a serious issue. As we wrote nearly two years ago, in response to Harper’s trying to sound some sort of vague alarm about cancel culture, so much of the debate conflates a variety of different things. There certainly are some cases of a mob of voices misunderstanding or overreacting to something mostly innocuous said or done by someone, and sometimes that leads to consequences that lots of people feel are exaggerated or undeserved. But the issue is that a huge percentage of the people using the term “cancel culture” or arguing that there’s some great silencing happening are hiding behind those extraordinarily rare examples to really say that they don’t like being criticized for their opinions.
Indeed, most examples of “cancel culture” don’t actually seem to be “canceling” anything. They seem to be a combination of counter speech and consequences — two things that are staples of believing in free speech. It really feels like many of the people who scream about cancel culture are really trying to silence their own critics, because they feel their criticism is too harsh, and the consequences they face too severe. In other words, many of the people screaming about cancel culture seem mostly focused on suppressing others’ speech — and frankly, it’s often the speech of those who have traditionally been marginalized or oppressed, who have had a chance to finally have their voices heard.
Stepping into this breach last week was the NY Times, with the ridiculously lazy take on how America has a Free Speech Problem. The analysis breaks no new ground, has nothing particularly thoughtful to say, and presents ridiculous false equivalencies from the very start.
For all the tolerance and enlightenment that modern society claims, Americans are losing hold of a fundamental right as citizens of a free country: the right to speak their minds and voice their opinions in public without fear of being shamed or shunned.
Except, that’s nonsense. At no point has “the right to speak your mind and voice your opinions” been “without fear of being shamed or shunned.” The entire framing here is wrong. Shaming and shunning are, yet again, counterspeech and consequences. There is no “right” not to face criticism or social stigma for your bad views.
Are there nuanced arguments and debates to be had about how such stigmatizing can sometimes go too far? Sure. Are there historical examples that today most people consider shameful — such as the “shaming and shunning” of the voices of minorities, the marginalized, and oppressed? Absolutely. But the underlying concept here so totally misses the point. Any time anyone says anything they may be shamed or shunned. That’s society.
Furthermore, there are fundamental viewpoints that large groups of people agree should be shamed, and most people agree that people who support those viewpoints should, in fact, be shamed for expressing those viewpoints. I have no problem arguing that those displaying purposeful, deliberate bigotry deserve counterspeech and, depending on the details, social consequences. Indeed, social shaming and consequences, is one way in which people learn what society finds acceptable and what it does not.
Relatedly (though not identically), there are always circumstances in which any reasonable person knows it’s best to hold back their own thoughts. Or, as I’ve heard a few people note (though I cannot find who said it originally), part of biting your tongue on some of your own beliefs is called being an adult and recognizing when it is and when it is not appropriate to express your thoughts on certain things. I may have views on how best to, for example, respond to a crying child, but it’s not my place to tell another parent how to handle their own child. That’s not me being silenced, it’s me not being an asshole.
The NY Times piece, however, doesn’t seem to consider any of this. It seems to suggest that adults being adults is somehow bad.
This social silencing, this depluralizing of America, has been evident for years, but dealing with it stirs yet more fear. It feels like a third rail, dangerous. For a strong nation and open society, that is dangerous.
No, it’s not dangerous. Might there be some cases where it could create dangerous results? Sure. Absolutely. I can think of situations in which people being too scared to speak up could lead to negative results. For example, there were the attempts by China to suppress early news of the severity of COVID-19, and, obviously, you can see how problematic that was.
But this general idea that all social silencing is dangerous is nonsense. Most of it is what’s known as being in polite society. Everyone has some bad ideas, but most of us know better than to blurt them out at inappropriate times. And that’s not dangerous. That’s society.
And, if you want to say that there are specific issues that feel “like a third rail, dangerous” that shouldn’t be, then let’s discuss those specifics rather than working in loose generalities that allow people to hide behind these claims to try to avoid consequences for just being an asshole. But the Times refuses to do that, and with it, seemingly refuses to directly acknowledge that the context of each of these scenarios really, really matters.
Then there’s the “both sides” part of this nonsense.
How has this happened? In large part, it’s because the political left and the right are caught in a destructive loop of condemnation and recrimination around cancel culture. Many on the left refuse to acknowledge that cancel culture exists at all, believing that those who complain about it are offering cover for bigots to peddle hate speech. Many on the right, for all their braying about cancel culture, have embraced an even more extreme version of censoriousness as a bulwark against a rapidly changing society, with laws that would ban books, stifle teachers and discourage open discussion in classrooms.
Once again, the word you want is “censorial” not “censorious” but, hey, I think I’m losing that fight. But to the point of this paragraph, it creates a very weird false equivalency. One “side,” it says, doesn’t think censors exist, and the “other side,” while whining about censors on the first side, is censoring itself. Which… what? That’s not an equally balanced scale there. Team purple claims it’s seen no cheating, while team orange is cheating while claiming that team purple cheats… is… not “both sides” do it. It’s just saying one side is simply accusing the other side of doing what it does.
But then the piece gets even more ridiculous.
Many Americans are understandably confused, then, about what they can say and where they can say it. People should be able to put forward viewpoints, ask questions and make mistakes and take unpopular but good-faith positions on issues that society is still working through — all without fearing cancellation.
As my colleague Leigh points out the “issues that society is still working through” line implicitly admits that there are some topics that are, broadly speaking, culturally settled as bad. He notes things like “explicit legal segregation” and “women being denied the vote.” While there are still a few nutty extremists who might argue those positions, for most of modern society, we agree that these are bad. And most of us don’t think it’s a problem if people who believe in those things feel uncomfortable expressing support for those positions. Because they’re pretty clearly really horrific ideas that are about suppressing actual fundamental rights. And if people truly believe those ideas in their hearts, well, perhaps the “social shame” will help them think through the problems of their position.
Or, at the very least, if they still feel that these culturally settled issues were settled incorrectly, well, they should at least be able to acknowledge that fact, and then they can try to make the case for why that settling was incorrect. That’s a tough hill to climb, but that’s what you have to deal with if you’re pushing such ideas.
The Times is not wrong that there may be some cases where someone expresses an innocent or good faith position, without understanding the baggage that comes with it or the impact of the statements, and in those cases, it should be seen as an opportunity to educate rather than to condemn. But, again, most of the claims of cancel culture are not in response to someone naively stepping into a discussion they don’t understand, but someone being a contrarian for the sake of riling people up.
However you define cancel culture, Americans know it exists and feel its burden. In a new national poll commissioned by Times Opinion and Siena College, only 34 percent of Americans said they believed that all Americans enjoyed freedom of speech completely. The poll found that 84 percent of adults said it is a “very serious” or “somewhat serious” problem that some Americans do not speak freely in everyday situations because of fear of retaliation or harsh criticism.
This poll is meaningless. Again, part of being adult is sometimes realizing it’s best to hold your tongue. Part of living in society is recognizing that not everyone agrees with you. And, most importantly, part of “freedom of speech” is recognizing that if you say something stupid, people may speak up about it and you may face wide-ranging consequences. That’s part of how freedom of speech works.
If anything, the results of this poll indicate to me that this stupidly pointless infatuation among thin-skinned elitists about “cancel culture” has tainted the narrative. But I defy anyone to argue against the notion that today is the moment in which we have the greatest ability to speak freely that has ever existed in history.
In the past, the risk of speaking out against societal norms was much, much higher in nearly every case and every scenario. Historically — as detailed in Jacob Mchangama’s excellent new book Free Speech: A History from Socrates to Social Media — speaking out in socially unfavorable ways frequently led to banishment or death (and I’ll note that Jacob and I disagree over whether or not cancel culture is a real concern, and you can hear us debate this point in my recent podcast discussion with him). But I think it’s impossible to argue that the “risks” of speaking out today are significantly less than in the past.
But the narrative that speaking out is a risk has taken hold among a certain group, usually of very elite and powerful people, who claim that tons of people are facing too-drastic consequences for their speech. So when we see such things repeated over and over again on TV and in magazines and newspapers, of course a public opinion poll is going to reflect that narrative back. It becomes self-fulfilling.
The key thing in all of this, though is that every complaint about cancel culture focuses on generalized situations. Whenever you dig into specifics, things get a lot more murky. Again, here and there you can find a few examples of an overreaction, but they seem to be few and far between. My favorite example of this was not too long ago, when On the Media’s Brooke Gladstone had on professor Erec Smith of York College in Pennsylvania who had been held up as an example of someone who had been cancelled, but upon closer investigation, he had merely been upset about some criticism. What that story showed was… basically what people normally talk about regarding “the marketplace of ideas.”
Smith disagreed with some people and got into a Twitter fight about it, and apparently was upset that the conversation wasn’t “civil and intelligent.” So he decided he’d been cancelled. I’ll let the transcript tell the rest of the story:
EREC SMITH Well, here’s the thing. I wouldn’t have done this if I didn’t think I was talking to mature academics. I was certain that we could have a civil and intelligent conversation. And I was wrong. I wasn’t talking to academics, I was talking to middle school mean girls.
BROOKE GLADSTONE So earlier in this hour, I spoke to somebody who’s very critical of this whole cancel culture idea. And he says cancelation is a word that never really contributes to the conversation. Instead, you could say someone was fired or someone was criticized. That to elevate this to a trend, creates a sense of moral panic when there is no cause for one.
EREC SMITH I guess if you’re somebody like me who studies language and persuasion, it presents differently. It’s a phenomenon to me. Something that is very telling about contemporary America. The idea that if you don’t like something, the best tactic is to degrade the person who said it. To not only silence them, to show others this is what happens when you cross us.
BROOKE GLADSTONE Well, what happened to you? What professional consequences did you experience?
EREC SMITH At the time of my attempted cancelation, I was writing a book where it was about the teaching of writing the meaning behind standardized English. After this incident, however, I realized that I have to write about these trends in academia. About the idea that everything is about power dynamics, the idea that everyone is reduced to being a body and not an individual. And I decided to revamp the book, I added chapters, I revised substantially other chapters. I wouldn’t recommend doing that with three months left to the deadline – that took its toll on my psyche, but it was worth it.
BROOKE GLADSTONE So, you didn’t lose tenure, you’re still able to publish and teach. You’ve said the experience has made you more outspoken.
EREC SMITH Yes.
BROOKE GLADSTONE And created a book that is perhaps more relevant to this moment. You got slammed, but you’re functioning in the world. And in some ways you’re participating in the mainstream discussion now.
EREC SMITH Yes.
BROOKE GLADSTONE How is that ultimately a bad thing? Especially since the number of teachers and professors and academics who are actually fired because of mobs on social platforms is vanishingly small?
EREC SMITH I speak up because I can. What I’m saying is something that many people agree with but aren’t able to talk about.
I love so much about this exchange, because it’s how so many of these debates end. After someone goes to some giant media property to talk about voices being silenced, when people point out that their voice is not being silenced, and they have a massive platform to say what they want, eventually they almost all fall back to “the narrative,” and claim that, sure, they can speak, but it’s to give voice to the vast silenced populace.
But the evidence of this actual silenced public is lacking. The NY Times piece again cites opinion polls, but there are reasonable explanations that have nothing to do with cancel culture:
The Times Opinion/Siena College poll found that 46 percent of respondents said they felt less free to talk about politics compared to a decade ago. Thirty percent said they felt the same. Only 21 percent of people reported feeling freer, even though in the past decade there was a vast expansion of voices in the public square through social media.
Is that because of “cancel culture” or because politics have gotten much more extreme and confrontational? Many of us are exhausted about talking about politics. I’m certainly less likely to talk about politics with people because it feels futile right now, not because I’m afraid of the consequences. It’s just not very interesting.
The next part of the NY Times piece is unintentionally hilarious:
“There’s a crisis around the freedom of speech now because many people don’t understand it, they weren’t taught what it means and why it matters,” said Suzanne Nossel, the chief executive of PEN America, a free speech organization. “Safeguards for free speech have been essential to almost all social progress in the country, from the civil rights movement to women’s suffrage to the current fights over racial justice and the police.”
Yeah, people aren’t taught what free speech means — including in this very article by the NY Times, which falsely says that free speech means being free from being shamed or shunned, and which contributes to the misleading narrative that free speech is being closed off.
The NY Times’ attempt to take the high road on this issue is also so bizarre:
We are under no illusion that this is easy. Our era, especially, is not made for this; social media is awash in speech of the point-scoring, picking-apart, piling-on, put-down variety. A deluge of misinformation and disinformation online has heightened this tension. Making the internet a more gracious place does not seem high on anyone’s agenda, and certainly not for most of the tech companies that control it.
I mean, this is also just wrong. Literally every major social media company (and many smaller ones) has a trust and safety group, and a large part of that role is very much about trying to make the internet a more gracious place. I mean, does the NY Times have a “trust and safety” team that reviews the NY Times’ product to see if it’s enabling more dissent and anger? No, they fired their public editor years ago, and insisted that social media could replace it.
You can’t consider yourself a supporter of free speech and be policing and punishing speech more than protecting it. Free speech demands a greater willingness to engage with ideas we dislike and greater self-restraint in the face of words that challenge and even unsettle us.
Again, the framing here is utter nonsense. First of all, you absolutely can (and often should) consider yourself “a supporter of free speech” if you go around criticizing others (i.e., “policing and punishing speech”). That’s free speech too! Basically, like so many of these debates, you can sum up the NY Times’ argument as “free speech means we get to say what we want, including criticizing others, but cancel culture is when we get criticized.
That last sentence is also bullshit. People are not getting mad about “words that challenge or unsettle us,” they’re mad about trolls, abuse, hatred, disingenuous bullshit and the like. And their way of responding — their way of using their own free speech to counter these ridiculous arguments — is to yell about it and to call attention to the people who present those ideas. That’s all speech.
Consider this finding from our poll: Fifty-five percent of respondents said that they had held their tongue over the past year because they were concerned about retaliation or harsh criticism. Women were more likely to report doing so — 61 percent, compared to 49 percent of men.
Again, that sounds like being an adult, and it also sounds like people are sick of asshole trolls online who will berate them. That’s not an attack on free speech. It’s recognizing that trolls exist, and acting accordingly.
At the same time, 22 percent of adults reported that they had retaliated against or were harshly critical of someone over something he or she said.
Read that one carefully. 22 percent had said they retaliated against OR were harshly critical. That tells me nothing useful whatsoever. First of all, the “or” there is a load-bearing bit of nonsense. Being harshly critical is, again, part of free speech. So, if most of that was just people being harshly critical, what’s the problem? This article is “harshly critical” of the NY Times because the NY Times deserves it. And what does “retaliated” mean in this context. Because if it’s just saying mean stuff, then, what’s the concern again?
Elijah Afere, a 25-year-old I.T. technician from Union, N.J., said that he worried about the larger implications of chilled speech for democracy. “You can’t give people the benefit of the doubt to just hold a conversation anymore. You’ve got to worry about feeling judged,” he said. “Political views can even affect your family ties, how you relate to your uncle or the other side. It’s really not good.”
I’m trying to think of a time when that’s not been true. I’ve always worried about feeling judged when I have a conversation with people, because that’s kind of natural. And political views have influenced family ties as far back as anyone can remember.
Roy Block, 76, from San Antonio, described himself as conservative and said he has been alarmed by scenes of parents being silenced at school board meetings over the past year. “I think it’s mostly conservatives that are being silenced,” he said. “But regardless, I think it should be a two-way street. Everybody should have an opportunity to speak and especially in open gathering and open forum.”
Roy thinks it’s “mostly conservatives”? But does he have any actual evidence of that? Why is the NY Times highlighting what some random dude thinks without presenting any actual evidence on whether or not its true? This isn’t reporting. This is pushing a narrative.
There’s more in the NY Times piece, but at this point it’s not worth going any deeper on this. This seems to be the latest in a long list of performative hand-wringing, which often talks about “the culture of free speech,” but which gets it wrong. The “culture of free speech” is that people disagree, often vehemently. And sometimes it goes overboard, but all too often the claims of an overreaction are really attempts by people to avoid admitting that they said something ridiculous that deserved condemnation and criticism, rather than “engagement” and “discourse.”
So much of these discussions are really about the elite, who have never really faced significant criticism from a wider public because they were insulated behind the protective walls of, say, the NY Times, rather than facing the general public via new innovations like the internet. Again, it’s possible that sometimes those reactions go too far, but it’s important to address such instances specifically, because as a whole, this façade that is put up about the culture of free speech being under attack doesn’t survive much serious scrutiny.
Furthermore, if there was an actual issue here (which again, the NY Times handwaves around, but never actually defines), this article does literally nothing towards trying to respond to it, other than tsk tsking in a way that is not useful to anyone. Indeed, it can basically be summed up as “elites are afraid to speak up because they might be criticized, but we’d really prefer that people who are criticizing the elites be afraid to speak up instead, so the elites can say stupid stuff without fear of consequences.” And when looked at that way, well, the NY Times deserves to be shamed and shunned.
Filed Under: cancel culture, consequences, counterspeech, criticism, culture, free speech
Companies: ny times
Comments on “The ‘Culture Of Free Speech’ Includes Criticism Of Others’ Speech; Get Over It”
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Not Shamed Enough
It’s the lack of shaming and shunning that is the problem for leftists. If someone says something that is politically incorrect, leftists are disappointed that the speaker still has followers on social media, and that few will unsubscribe. That’s where cancel culture enters.
Political correctness is censorship disguised as polite society.
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Give me an example of such speech. Be specific.
Something I learned long ago: Replace “political correctness” with “personal consideration” and you’ll have a better idea of what people are talking about. Being considerate enough to not use racial slurs and gendered insults in the presence of people who would be (at a bare minimum) offended by such speech is discretion, not censorship.
That you’re apparently fine with people being racist pieces of shit and not getting treated as such is a you problem.
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Re: Re: Political Correctness
Political correctness is the attempt to use 1984 as a manual rather than a warning, in the belief that forcing people to use certain words will force their opinions to follow suit.
For example, the woke would like to prevent the use of the term “illegal alien” and to use “undocumented immigrant” instead. But an alien is a non-citizen while immigrants can be citizens, and illegal aliens do not merely lack documentation, their very presence in this country is a violation of the law.
Similarly, the woke would prefer that we call crazed, stinking, drug-addled, possibly dangerous bums “the homeless”, despite the fact that their lack of a home is a consequence, not a cause, of their state. And now that “homeless” is synonymous with “crazed, stinking, drug-addled, possibly dangerous bum”, they want to switch the term to “unhoused”, to add the grace note that it is, of course, not the responsibility of anyone to arrange for their own home, but that others must do that.
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And if you want to continue calling them “illegal aliens” and “crazed, stinking, drug-addled, possibly dangerous bums”, guess what is stopping you? (hint: nothing) Doesn’t seem very 1984 when you can keep saying whatever you want.
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And yet, you’re still legally allowed to use racial slurs instead of “Black people” or “people of color” when talking about those groups. Granted, you might not feel so free to use those slurs in the presence of people from those groups, but you’re still free to use them.
Invoking Godwin’s Second Law again.
I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but no one is coming to arrest you for saying “illegal alien”. The difference in language there is one of personal consideration: A person isn’t illegal, and calling them such dehumanizes them. That makes treating them like shit (even moreso than we do now) a much easier pill to swallow.
You have a stereotypical image of homeless people in your head, and you don’t even realize it. You default to that image so you can demean homeless people instead of asking the real question: What can we do to prevent homelessness from even being a thing?
Everyone wants to think of the homeless as “bums”. Nobody wants to think about how society makes people “bums” by virtue of economic inequality and the greed of the upper class.
Any society that doesn’t see shelter as a basic human right—something that the government should provide to all people, even in a bare minimum way—is a society that doesn’t see humanity in anyone who isn’t already housed. That you keep raving about “bums” as if they’re the only people who are homeless—and as if they’re wild animals—is proof enough.
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Re: Re: Re:2
It is the mark of the woke to demand that people not see what is in front of their eyes. That there are still places where they cannot enforce their doctrines does not make political correctness not exist. Their claims that it does not is yet another example of this demand.
Illegal aliens are not citizens and it is against the law for them to be here; that is why they can be deported. The visible subset of the homeless that people encounter and are occasionally murdered by are crazed, drug-addled, possibly dangerous, stinking bums. It is physically impossible, now and for the foreseeable future, to change men into women.
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How do you not yet see the irony of complaining that you’re not allowed to say any of those things while repeatedly saying all of them?
Re: Re: Re:3
No one here is saying “political correctness” doesn’t exist—only that it doesn’t have the force of law behind it. The government can’t make anyone say “undocumented immigrant” instead of “illegal alien”.
That you think the only visible homeless people are violent, mentally ill drug addicts is your problem, fam.
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Re: Re: Re:4 Political Correctness
“No one here is saying “political correctness” doesn’t exist”
Try reading the comments.
Re: Re: Re:5
I have. Insofar as “political correctness” exists, it exists in the form of taking personal consideration for the humanity of others into account when speaking. No law, statute, or “common law” court ruling mandates “political correctness” in that the government can punish people for, say, using “illegal alien” instead of “undocumented immigrant” (or vice versa).
Re: Re: Re:6
I pretty much every case, the “politically” part can be dropped for accuracy.
Re: Re: Re:7
As I mentioned elsewhere: Change “politically correct” to “personally considerate” and see how much more accurate it is.
Re: Re: Re:8
One example I had in mind was the book The “Politically” Incorrect Guide to Science.
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Re: Re: Re:3
[Projects facts contrary to reality]
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Being in the US without proper documentation is a civil offense, not a criminal one. If you don’t understand this distinction then you don’t understand why “undocumented immigrant” can’t be substituted by “illegal alien” either. Further, being an undocumented immigrant doesn’t automatically mean a civil offense has been perpetrated.
In regards to homeless people, the number one reason for homelessness in the US is lack of affordable housing and number two is unemployment. It’s telling that you think all homeless people are drug addicts.
Using simple labels with negative connotations for groups of people that doesn’t actually fit everyone in those groups is just plain and simple othering with the goal to dehumanize them. It’s also the hallmark of a very simplistic and lazy view of the actual reality.
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If you prefered way of speaking shows that you do not give a shit about other people, then expect that other people will shun your company, and this include some social media sites banning your presence.
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Are people who applied and are awaiting approval for asylum, “illegal aliens”? I mean, do you have a specific criteria, like if they crossed the border and then turned themselves in different than those who were able to apply for asylum at an official border crossing point? What about those in DACA, people who arrived here as children, do those who have little to no recollection or connection to their country of origin, get considered any differently in your mind? Or do you simply see them as less than human, undeserving of dignity, of safety, of an opportunity to live and thrive? Because when you use phrases like illegal alien, you are dehumanizing actual human beings, for no real reason but where on this planet they took their first breath of air.
And speaking of dehumanizing, how you speak of the homeless is repugnant. Go fuck yourself, you know nothing of what these people have been through, and what they continue to face day after day. You know nothing. Homeless people are far more likely to to be the victims of crime than the perpetrators. Being homeless has an incredibly destructive effect on the mind and body, and makes it impossible for most to maintain or gain employment.
Worst of all, the pathetic white ‘economic insecurity’ that drives the racism and xenophobia rumbling in the country has been pushing out and away a very necessary part of the workforce. The current workforce for home building is aging out fast. Millennials were told get a college degree or you’ll never achieve anything, so we didn’t fill much of employment demand in construction. This country desperately needs affordable housing, which is another reality I’m sure you know nothing about in a personal sense. We need day laborers (among a host of other jobs typically filled by immigrant workers) to help build more housing wherever nimbys can be busted to allow for building.
You should be ashamed of how you talk about other humans, and how you make judgements and assumptions about them when you know nothing about the people or the circumstances they are in. May you never have to go through anything like the people you degrade because you will sink like a stone.
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Yeah but they aren’t racist at all. Just because someone says your gay or your this doesn’t mean they hate guys lol. That’s where people are fucked up and the consequences are exaderated as fuck. I use to say your gay to everyone and I know plenty of gay people thar wouldn’t give 2 fucks about hearing that word come out of my mouth because in reality they know im not a homophobe. That’s all thst matters is how you use the word and what your intentions really are. Most of these people that slip with censorship are not racist or transphobes they just been saying things how they’ve been said for decades and now people are scared to joke about anything without being critis8zed for it. It’s ruined all forms of entertainment because people are scared to do anything now. Cancel culture is the most discusting thing happening in this world right now. World was fine without it. Like saying retard. I’m not offending retards or Hating on them at all and even they know that. I’m just saying it as an insult to my friend for being dumb. People are softttttt as shit these days and it’s grossssssssss. Grow some fuxking balls and take the shit. Hate how soft the world has gotten. Teaches our kids to have no balls and be scared uncreative and soft fucks
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“If someone says something that is politically incorrect…”
It is absolutely hilarious how you flat out refuse to provide any actual examples of this despite being asked to countless times. We all know you’re talking about people being racist, homophobic, sexist, xenophobic, threatening or any combination of those (i.e. modern ‘conservative values’), but even you can’t bring yourself to defend them. You actually prove the point that most people know there are repercussions for saying shitty things, otherwise I’m sure you’d be happy to share.
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I work for a company that says: “We want all people feel welcome regardless of skin color, gender, sexual orientation [and more].” That means that employees can (and do) get fired for sexual intimidation and racist rants. (Depending on the severity of the infraction other measures can be taken.)
I fully agree with this company rule because it also works out positive for me, making me feel welcome and I’m happy to welcome any person who is friendly to me.
Yes, some bigots would like to call it censorship when their attempts to mess up the atmosphere in the office they work result in punishments, but the saying is “one bad apple …”
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Noones racist or homophobic or any of that just cause they say one word you can’t tie there intentions or beliefs to that. I know my whole school use to say your gay or your retarded alll the time. Does that mean my whole school was full of homohobes and mentally challenged haters. Nooooooo it means we used a word as an insult to that specific friend or person and it has nothing to do with the guys or mentally challenged people. It’s just a fucking word. Can’t be that soft its gross. Theres women and there’s men. Now there’s just all women and no testosterone left in the world. Everyone is a bunch of soft little girls and it’s gonna destroy the next few generations. Doesn’t build good character and strength. Bunch of soft fucks. It’s grossssssssss. Back in ghe day we took shit and moved on big deal. Move on to the next thing. Don’t take ahit soo seriously. Relax who gives a fuck
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What nonsense, a large number of people do not want to listen to or deal with right wing extremists. and being told to shut up, and go elsewhere if you want to discuss your chosen topics is not cancel culture, but rather freedom of association.
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If someone says something that is politically incorrect, leftists are disappointed that the speaker still has followers on social media, and that few will unsubscribe. That’s where cancel culture enters.
So what you’re saying is that when some asshole starts using the N-word or talks about how women aren’t really equal to men, a lot of people stop listening…and this, to you, is somehow not a good thing?
That’s not cancel culture, Koby. That’s just an asshole being shown the door. But you knew that, because we’ve told you as much before.
Here’s a novel idea. If the people you carry all that water for were to stop belting out white supremacy propaganda they’d get tossed out of fewer bars and social platforms.
No one is owed an audience, jackass. This has been made abundantly clear to you multiple times.
If you spend ten more years around here, you still won’t make headway on this.
Re:
So, are talks of insurrection, terrorism, white supremacy, COVID denial and reciting Russian propaganda politically incorrect speech?
A yes or no will suffice.
Re: Re:
According to Texas Republicans, they’re official “Conservative Values.”
Re: Re:
Wrong question, as you are denying other peoples freedom of association, which includes not association with some people.
Risky!
I was going to respond, but, well… you know…
As far as I’ve seen ‘cancel culture’ is little more than ‘applying consequences to people who think those are for other people’.
Free speech has never been shorthand for consequence-free speech, you have always had to weigh what you might want to speak versus what the reaction from those around you might be so the idea that it’s somehow ‘unfair’ that people might face consequences for their words strikes me as petulant whining that it’s unacceptable that actions have consequences.
Re:
Do you have a particular definition of “Cancel Culture” you favor?
Me, I prefer the one expressed by Scott Greenfield:
With that definition in hand, it is much easier to talk about “Cancel Culture”, and to point to examples of it.
Without a tangible definition, you are waving vaguely at a problem and saying it exists/doesn’t exist, solely depending on your definition and leanings.
Oh, the Freeze Peach crowd is going to have their icy thongs in a twist over this one.
Re:
But they’ll have to keep quiet about it, because Mike has a right to say whatever he wants without being criticized.
That’s how it works, right? Surely they wouldn’t be so hypocritical as to criticize this article.
How do you propose a theoretical person who is unjustly silenced get the word out if, by virtue of getting the word out, they are not considered having been unjustly silenced?
Re:
You don’t. That’s what I refer to as the “I have been silenced” fallacy.
Re: Re:
a.k.a. Being Josh Hawley.
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Re: Re:
Then how would one diagnose the existance of a culture of censorship if the very nature of someone having been censored means they cannot express this in any form, through any medium, to any audience, and still be considered having faced censorship?
Re: Re: Re:
If someone lacks the ability to speak their mind anywhere, they’ve been censored. If someone can say “I’ve been censored” on literally any platform other than the one they’ve been refused the use of, they haven’t been censored. Once more for the people who ain’t seen the copypasta yet:
Hence what I refer to as the “I have been silenced” fallacy: You can be censored or you can be free to say “I have been silenced”, but both can’t be true at the same time.
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Re: Re: Re:2
A problem cannot be debated if it impossible to diagnose. And if it is impossible to diagnose, whose to say if it even exists at all?
Re: Re: Re:3
We can diagnose censorship when we see it happening. Book bannings, for example, are a clear sign of censorship—regardless of who does it—and should be criticized by anyone who values free speech.
Someone being criticized for holding a shitty opinion is not censorship.
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Re: Re: Re:4
Is someone losing their job for their speech censorship?
Let’s say this theoretical person had expressed pro-communist viewpoints and was fired from the movie studio they worked for.
Re: Re: Re:5
That would be social consequences. One can lose their job without losing the right to speak their mind.
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Re: Re: Re:6
I gave an example of McCarthyism, by the way. An example that you say is just “social consequences”.
Re: Re: Re:7
McCarthyism involved more than merely “losing a job”, and pretending otherwise to pull a weak-ass “gotcha” won’t change that fact.
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Re: Re: Re:8
Yes. And actors losing their jobs over Communist (or assumed Communist) sympathies is an infamous example of Mccarthyism.
Re: Re: Re:9
Tell me how these two situations are exactly the same:
If you can do that, maybe we can have an adult discussion. If you can’t, don’t make the attempt.
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Re: Re: Re:10
I don’t believe I ever said anything about the N word or people who say it.
Why you jumped to a cartoonish good/evil example that is almost never the point of contention is beyond me. Disagreements about speech exist from people outside of the Trump-o-sphere.
Regarding modern-day government coercion, you can see the countless efforts by lawmakers around the world to have tech wave their magic algorithms at political problems on social media and marginalize or ban whatever topics/stances are politically unpopular. If you want a specific example – look at all the people who had their tweets removed and YouTube channels banned when they discussed the possibility of Covid having been bioengineered from a lab….up until Biden became President and posited that view himself. At which point it was suddenly okay to express that view on social media without it being removed.
Re: Re: Re:11 Have you tried digging up lately?
“Why you jumped to a cartoonish good/evil example…”
Didn’t you just bring McCarthyism into this conversation apropos of nothing?
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Re: Re: Re:12
Yes – because I described literal McCarthyism. That’s a bit different than conjuring up the strawman argument “you just want people to say the N word without consequence!”
Re: Re: Re:13
Did “I threw unrelated fantasies at the wall while Stephen stuck to reality” sound like a winning argument in your head?
Re: Re: Re:11
You want to act as if all examples of “cancel culture” are equal to censorship. I asked you to tell me how an example of censorship/censorious conduct and an example of “cancel culture” are the same damn thing. The choice of example had a point: to cut through any bullshit.
The government gave no order to Twitter, YouTube, or any other social media service that demanded they delete COVID-19 dis- and misinformation. Legally, the government couldn’t do that. On any website that was open to treating that theory with any sense of credibility, such discussions weren’t punished with deletion/bannings. And no one was prevented from speaking their mind on the theory one way or the other if they happened to be banned from Twitter, YouTube, etc. You have offered an example not of censorship, but of moderation.
Man, I’m gettin’ a lot of use out of my copypastas today:
Re: Re: Re:11
[Hallucinates facts not in evidence]
Re: Re: Re:7 Maybe you should let the adults handle this
Well you tried…. sort of.
Re: Re: Re:3
Your lack of capacity to think rationally does not a problem with the outside world make.
Re: Re: Re:2
It’s amazing how the very concept of censorship ever bubbled up into the public consciousness it or the product of it cannot be diagnosed or even observed short of reading people’s minds.
I could’ve sworn this didn’t used to be the case.
Re: Re: Re:3
If you have been denied the right to speak (one way or another), you have been censored. Getting criticized, booted from a platform, and/or sacked from a job because you acted like an asshole—none of those are censorship.
Re: Re: Re:3
Republicans like to fake up a lot of deranged fantasy narratives for their flock to eat up.
“Cancel Culture / Censorship” Being but one of them.
Re: Re: Re:4
Ironic, considering they STARTED this bullshit.
See: McCarthyism, the various “moral panics”…
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Re: Re: Re:2 Silenced Fallacy
You can be silenced in one context, and then tell people about it in a different context. There’s no fallacy about that. Professor Jason Kilborn was censored and punished for his “n_____” law exam question by his university, regardless of the fact that his case then became a cause célèbre among advocates for free speech. The woke whining about cancel culture not being real is just crocodile tears. What they regret is having been caught, and not being able to continue silencing in silence.
Re: Re: Re:3
Yes, there is: If you’ve been “silenced”, that implies an inability to speak out. And yet, plenty of people who claim to have been “silenced” by…how did you put it? “The woke”? Yes, plenty of people who claim to have been “silenced” by “the woke” are still able to find platforms for their speech—including the same speech over which they were “silenced”.
Two things.
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Re: Re: Re:4 "Law"
Invoke away. It’s cute that you think it means something.
If you want a law, I like Rod Dreher’s Law of Merited Impossibility: “This doesn’t/won’t happen, and when it does, it’s because you bigots deserve it.” Apples perfectly to cancel culture.
When Twitter prevents the Babylon Bee from saying that they have given Rachel Levine their Man of the Year award, they are not “equalizing” anything. They are censoring speech. That they have the legal right to do this does not make it any less censorship. When Amazon refuses to sell When Harry Became Sally, that is censorship. That they have the legal right to do that, and that Barnes & Noble continues to sell it, does not make it any less censorship.
In any context where they have power, the woke want to shut down opinions that they hate, so that no one can hear them. This is not a matter of forcing people to listen. This is shutting down speakers when they come to speak to audiences that wasn’t to hear them. And this is craven university administrators failing in their duties to openness by kowtowing to the woke and to political correctness and to moronic Diversity, Inclusion, and Equity programs.
Re: Re: Re:5
That’s funny, since Twitter can’t prevent (and hasn’t prevented) anyone who runs/works for The Babylon Bee from saying that transphobic garbage outside of Twitter.
…well, not so much “funny” as it is another instance of the “I have been silenced” fallacy, but you get my point.
…Amazon choosing what it will and won’t sell through its marketplace. Amazon isn’t legally required to offer that book—or literally anything else on its marketplace—for sale to potential customers.
Which opinions are you referring to? Be specific.
What, and you think conservatives haven’t done that—or aren’t doing that now? I don’t see you decrying their book bans and their going after trans people for daring to exist or literally every other kind of “cancel culture”/moral crusades they’re responsible for. If the so-called woke are doing this shit now, conservatives—especially conservative Christians—gave them the blueprint.
Re: Re: Re:6
Interesting. I’m usually pretty aware of whining from people claiming to be “censored” or “silenced” and I’d never heard of those two.
So, after doing some research, we have a satire site being told they went too far with a joke for the tastes of a service they use to promote themselves, and a book seller deciding not to carry a book that has a clear hate message. Both of which happen to be keying in to a trend to bully and demean a certain group of people, if not outright attack their right to exist. Both of which do nothing to ban or otherwise censor outside of the 3rd party platform they’re trying to use at no direct cost to advertise.
Once again, it’s interesting to see which message these people think they’re sending and the one they are sending, and I don’t think that “the free platform we use to grow our business doesn’t want us to scare away other paying customers” is a compelling argument for removing private property rights and the right to free association.
Re: Re: Re:5
In any context where they have power, the woke want to shut down opinions that they hate, so that no one can hear them.
Yeah, for example, look at this woke censorship… Oh wait…
https://www.propublica.org/article/were-going-to-be-conservative-official-orders-books-removed-from-schools-targeting-titles-about-transgender-people
Or, how about this woke censorship… oh wait…
https://floridaphoenix.com/2022/02/15/amid-fear-and-censorship-fl-school-districts-are-pulling-books-off-shelves-in-public-schools/
Or, maybe this woke censorship… oh wait…
https://www.forbes.com/sites/petergreene/2021/09/29/critical-race-theory-bans-are-expanding-to-cover-broad-collection-of-issues/?sh=51fecb2b5e5d
Crud. Oh, this must be that woke censorship… oh, wait…
https://www.techdirt.com/2022/02/24/as-expected-trumps-social-network-is-rapidly-banning-users-it-doesnt-like-without-telling-them-why/
Anyway, dude, maybe drop the nonsense about “woke” censorship, because it seems to be a hell of a lot of projection.
Re: This is what you sound like
How would you do a thing that’s also a thing that has a thing as well if there is another thing that doesn’t have a thing?
Jeez, not this again
The NYTimes should know the difference between free speech and freeze peach, since it is their whole reason for existing.
Getting kicked of Facebook/Insta/Tiktok/Twitter/etc doesn’t stop anyone from creating their own safe space and saying anything they want, thus remaining “uncancelled”. I don’t get how the NYT doesn’t understand this.
As usually, there’s the obligatory XKCD on the subject.
Re:
Even leaving aside the distinction between what’s a legal right and what’s a moral right, it’s just flat-out logically incoherent to claim that the first person who speaks has some kind of right to say whatever they want without criticism but anyone who wants to respond to them does not have the same right.
Freedom of speech isn’t limited to the first person who opens his mouth. I think perhaps they have it confused with calling shotgun.
Two points to consider
First, whenever somebody claims to be silenced or censored, ask them to post the comment that they claim was censored. Was censored. I would bet that 99.9% of the time, the comment was hateful or racist and that the average person would agree that the comment should have been removed.
Will that person really stand behind their racist comment?
Second, as we’ve said plenty of times, private companies like Facebook have every right to remove comments that they feel are offensive. Would these same people claim they were censored if they walked into Walmart and started ranting about about how Amazon has better prices? If Walmart threw them out of the store, would they claim they were being censored? If not, why is Facebook treated differently? Oh, right, because it’s trendy to complain about tech companies.
Re:
They’ll almost never be willing to do so. They will describe it in vague terms that make it sound innocuous, but seldom will they be willing to show it verbatim.
Re: Re:
Which is a very telling response as it shows that even they understand that they crossed the line and that the ‘censorship’ was likely entirely justified.
If someone claiming to have been silenced really believed they were in the right and that the majority of people would support them then they’d have no problem presenting the evidence for all to see, ducking and dodging just shows that even they know they aren’t.
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Finsta
For leftists, the problem is that some people aren’t shunned enough. If someone delivers a politically incorrect take on on social media, leftists are upset that the speaker still has followers. It’s the same reason why folks do finsta accounts. Their friends want to receive the messages. The SJWs want to make it so that you don’t have a choice in the matter. The speaker isn’t going to be shamed or shunned. But the speaker is afraid of getting censored.
Re: This is me shaming and shunning you
Bravely bold Sir Koby
Rode forth from the internet.
He was not afraid to die,
Oh brave Sir Koby.
He was not at all afraid
To be killed in nasty ways.
Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Koby.
He was not in the least bit scared
To be mashed into a pulp.
Or to have his eyes gouged out,
And his elbows broken.
To have his kneecaps split
And his body burned away,
And his limbs all hacked and mangled
Brave Sir Koby.
His head smashed in
And his heart cut out
And his liver removed
And his bowls unplugged
And his nostrils raped
And his bottom burnt off
And his penis
“That’s, that’s enough music for now lads, there’s dirty work afoot.”
Re: I think I finsta’d all the hot buzzwords
Oh there you are bro. I was worried the woke leftists had cucked and cancel cultured your snowflake right to say incredibly stupid incel things on Techdirts SJW BLM CRT platform.
Re:
Where are these alleged COMMUNISTS.
Be specific.
They’re not on the Internet, because most of those bloody leftists have never read Marxist Literature, let alone Marx. Most of them tend to be still blinded by their whiteness, thinking their whiteness means they should be listened to, just like… oh, the right. Of which they FUCKING ARE AND HAVE NOT FUCKING LEFT.
They’re not in academia, because even the academics know better than to actually practice communism, and the “right” doesn’t want to properly engage in discussion and help humanity as a whole.
No, they’re not in China or in most places that claim to practice communism either.
Re:
For leftists, the problem is that some people aren’t shunned enough.
Shunned among whom? Other leftists?
I’m having a hard time figuring out why that would matter to a group that often talks of Civil War 2.0.
And everyone working for social change suffered various social problems and personal attack to try and deter them from pursuing their objectives
Re:
Martin Luther King, Jr. spoke of a dream. He used speech, not violence, to spread the idea of a better America for all peoples regardless of race/ethnicity. He showed compassion and restraint under great duress and in the face of violently racist hatred.
He got shot in the fucking face anyway.
He was just here a second ago
Hey k-dawg it’s your time to shine bro!
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Tell that to Ilya Shipiro, or to Kristen Waggoner and the Yale Federalist society. Once the shouting begins, it doesn’t matter why you think you were justified. Logic has checked out and is already on the flight home.
No. Just no. It’s not that “any reasonable person knows”, because everyone has days of poor judgement every now and then. It’s that you put something into the public record that someone will, years later, take objection to. Jokes in poor taste, even if you would never say the same things today. Or old boyfriend photos.
It’s not “holding your tongue to prevent offense today”. It’s holding your tongue to prevent offense by anyone, anywhere, at any point in the future. And that simply is not possible.
Re:
Nice job providing so many examples that disprove your own unhinged narrative.
Changing horses in mid stream...
Upon reading the NYT article, I find myself quite unclear on what the authors are actually referring to when they refer to ‘cancel culture’. The authors seem to mean any number of rather vaguely defined things — or more precisely, several different, vaguely defined things (often hardly meaningfully comparable things) — with the actual definition shifting from one paragraph to the next.
The article left me more confused than enlightened.
Ah! That explains it! This essay was written by a committee — and most likely a rather haphazard committee composed of highly opinionated participants with strongly divergent and often outright incompatible views.
Re:
Nobody who uses the term “cancel culture” seriously can define it in objective terms.
What most people refer to as “cancel culture” is actually consequences for one’s speech—mostly social, sometimes legal. People can be overzealous in their attempts to apply such consequences, sure. But that only means we should all try to cultivate a better human experience, off- and online.
Besides, before what some people refer to as “cancel culture” was called “cancel culture”, it was called “moral crusades”, and leftists didn’t invent it—conservative Christians did.
Re:
Nah, I’m certain they have the same views.
You know the ones.
Re:
So are they.
Re:
a committee of concern trolls with an agenda
Re:
“I find myself quite unclear on what the authors are actually referring to when they refer to ‘cancel culture’”
“Cancel culture” is essentially a nonsense term. It really just refers to boycotts and people otherwise facing consequences for their own actions. It’s been happening for many decades. There’s only 2 new wrinkles in the modern era. One is that a lot more of what a person does is publicly visible, and once it’s visible the internet makes it easier to search. I vehemently disagree with the idea of someone losing a current job because of something they did 10 years, but that happened pre-internet too, the only “new” thing is that it’s easier to find such evidence and that hardly requires a new term to describe it.
More relevant, I think is the other difference – in the past, while boycotts have been called for things like human rights and environmental issues, the majority of them come from the “right” or from religious types. Banning books and comic books, banning role playing and videogames, banning music, boycotting musicians who oppose the Iraq war, boycotting companies that give rights to gay people, etc. have been happening for decades.
I think this is the reason behind “cancel culture” as a new term. The people who usually demand bans and boycotts are suddenly finding themselves on the wrong side of it. So, because they’re suddenly the “victims” it’s a new problem and unfair.
Re: Re:
Yeah, “cancel culture” wasn’t a thing until the people who were trying to actually cancel culture they didn’t like found out how the Internet let marginalized people have a voice. Kinda funny how that term sprang up after queer people, people of color, etc. started making real headway in having their voices taken seriously.
Re: Re: Re:
When I hear “cancel culture”, I usually hear “wait, I can be bullied too?”.
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No sale
This article is full of weasel tactics. “Sure, there are some cases”…yeah, there’s more than “some”.
People shouldn’t be losing their jobs for having an unpopular opinion, or for offending the overly sensitive. There comes a point where criticism becomes intimidation, and we’ve very clearly pole-vaulted past it.
Freedom of speech is not just some legalese clause preventing the government from certain actions. It is a statement of principles: it establishes that sometimes we will agree to disagree. A society that claims to hold freedom of speech as a value is saying that unpopular speech will be protected, because unpopular speech is the only speech that requires protection. You don’t need laws or society’s permission to go along with the herd. If you are saying that it is acceptable for someone to lose their job and/or be socially ostracized over something they said then you are saying there is no freedom of speech in your society.
Yes, free speech has its limits but that bar is, or is supposed to be, set extremely high. Cancel-culture advocates want everyone to have to limbo-dance under it. The political left is aping the Marxists it denies are its heroes, and that’s got to stop.
Re:
Which opinions are you referring to? Be specific.
Yet here you are, whining about people who disagree with certain opinions (you know the ones) as if they shouldn’t be allowed to shittalk anyone who expresses those opinions.
Take a quick look at the law: Anyone who uses anti-queer slurs can’t be arrested for saying one in public. Protection for unpopular speech does not extend to criticism of that speech.
You seem to be saying that no one should be socially ostracized for, say, using a racial slur on Twitter. Is that your position here?
“Cancel culture” opponents want to set the bar at a point where no one can criticize “politically incorrect” speech. Which side seems more like censors?
The political right in the United States is literally banning books and trying to outlaw speech that so much as mentions gay people in schools across the country.
Re:
Right, but only the right think that have the right to force other people to listen to their views. Doe that have anything to do with them desiring a one party state, where the state decides what acceptable views and opinions are?
Re:
“People shouldn’t be losing their jobs for having an unpopular opinion…”
That’s a stupidly broad generalization. There are plenty of unpopular opinions that you should keep to yourself if you want to keep your job. If your opinions are at odds with your company’s stated values or negatively affect other staff that don’t want to hear your shit, why should an employer have to keep you?
“…or for offending the overly sensitive.”
‘Overly sensitive’ is just another way of saying my opinion matters and yours doesn’t. It’s the sort of accusation that comes from someone who has zero experience with being subjected to anyone else’s prejudices, and can’t fathom why someone would react to theirs.
“There comes a point where criticism becomes intimidation”
And some of those ‘overly sensitive’ people have spent their lives intimidated into silence and finally feel like they have enough support in society to be able to criticize those who don’t want to hear from them. Suck it up buttercup.
Re: How is it you RWNJ's know so much about Marx?
“The political left is aping the Marxists it denies are its heros…”
That bump you just felt was this comments final exit off the rails of the not-entirely crazy train into full on right wing propaganda.
Re:
People shouldn’t be losing their jobs for having an unpopular opinion, or for offending the overly sensitive.
Really? I’m sorry but if someone has an opinion that calls into question their sanity and ability to function, and the job calls for sanity then, yes, it seems reasonable for them to lose their job. And, if their job involves interacting with lots of different people, then yeah, they kinda do need to not offend others. So, there are some kinds of opinions that are incompatible with some types of jobs. It’s not that complicated.
Freedom of speech is not just some legalese clause preventing the government from certain actions. It is a statement of principles: it establishes that sometimes we will agree to disagree.
Sure. But that doesn’t mean I have to hire idiots.
A society that claims to hold freedom of speech as a value is saying that unpopular speech will be protected
No, it’s saying you won’t get punished by the government for that speech. It doesn’t mean anyone has to like you or hire you.
If you are saying that it is acceptable for someone to lose their job and/or be socially ostracized over something they said then you are saying there is no freedom of speech in your society.
Years back, I worked at a store, where one of my fellow clerks got mad at a customer, and cursed him out with a bigoted slur. He was fired. You’re saying that means there’s no freedom of speech?
Yes, free speech has its limits
Yes. The limits are that free speech can’t be punished by the government. Having people NOT LIKE YOU is not a fundamental free speech right.
The political left
I’m not “the political left” so I don’t understand why you went there.
Re: Re:
“People that work both around the infectiously sick and the medically vulnerable should be exempt from one particular vaccine targeted by political/russian disinformation” being a prime example.
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Re: Re: Re:
People who believe that they are a sex different from their bodies being another? No? Believing that gods love you? Believing that gods don’t exist?
Soviet Russia had a long history of locking up opponents to Communism in insane asylums because obviously only crazy people could hold such opinions.
Since there are very few things that don’t require sanity, calling your antagonists insane is just another way of trying to cancel them.
Re: Re: Re:2
I wish it worked, goddamn.
Re: Re: Re:2
Facts don’t care about your feelings, snowflake.
Re: Re:
“And, if their job involves interacting with lots of different people, then yeah, they kinda do need to not offend others.”
If you’re talking about legality, for certain jobs then yeah. Though I think a lot of people who calls out certain firing were debating it in a different esthetic way. Appealing to the oversensitive and firing the person in favor of them, which can make life much harder for that person, is flat out objectionable sometimes. The job owner for certain jobs could of probably just ignored the over-sensitive and still give that person a good future, which is what some people might be arguing for.
Re:
So where are these Marxists?
Be specific.
Re:
*People shouldn’t be losing their jobs for having an unpopular opinion, or for offending the overly sensitive. *
Perhaps those affected people should be considering if their job is more important than their ‘unpopular opinion’ before they open their mouths. What’s more important? Having a job or being able to say ‘conservative things’ that illustrate your ability to be an asshole?
You’re always the victim.
Red pens are censorship!
So according to their own terrible definitions, editing is really just another form of cancel culture.
[this comment did not fit the Internet standards of today and has been cancelled]
Well if polite society deems certain speech unacceptable
Then by all means polite society should rule the day. I’m sure we all would like polite society to run everybody else’s life.
Generally, of course, the author is correct.
The author seems to have no fear of the chilling of speech and no fear of polite society running the speech world. For the time being, as long as polite society is on the author’s side, all is well and good.
And I literally mean running it, at least regarding the so-called “social media” giants and their tools designed for everyone’s expression. They dangle the idea of speech, the veneer of freedom, but rather than actually having it they instead chill it offering merely a gilded cage.
Similarly, the conclusion the author correctly draws about “traditional media” influence applies to “social media”: the parroted narrative is the story. “Of course we love trust and safety. We just told you so and used those words, and others have repeated it and done similarly, so there you have it.” They can suppress what they like, but no lover of free speech should call a censorial nature under the laughable guise of trust and safety (they trust nobody, and nobody is unsafe because of mere words from randoms on the internet) a good thing.
“Free speech demands a greater willingness to engage with ideas we dislike and greater self-restraint in the face of words that challenge and even unsettle us.”
Goddamn right it does.
Remember that it’s none of your business to try to get someone fired, or doxxed, or disinvited, or in any way inhibit someone’s speech. That is what’s happening! That is so-called cancel culture! That it ever happens is shameful, regardless of who or how often.
Everyone’s entitled to expression of their bullshit opinion, so go ahead and express yours and let everybody do the same. Cry, whine, moan, rail directly at them, whatever gets one through the utter trauma of randos saying (bad thing, shifting daily) but NEVER try to stop them in the first place. Give them enough rope to hang themselves.
Re:
Using speech to express our dislike of a person for their behavior or speech is our business. If the consequences of critical speech go beyond what you deem acceptable, we can have that conversation instead of the one where you’re trying to inhibit people from using their speech to fling shit at someone who said some stupid shit on This God Damned Internet.
Re:
The author seems to have no fear of the chilling of speech and no fear of polite society running the speech world. For the time being, as long as polite society is on the author’s side, all is well and good.
I have those fears. But I need actual specific examples of it happening, so that we can discuss them.
Remember that it’s none of your business to try to get someone fired, or doxxed, or disinvited, or in any way inhibit someone’s speech.
Why? Everyone has a line. You’d welcome your school/company inviting a serial rapist to give a motivational pep talk, or would you argue that maybe that’s inappropriate?
That’s the issue. Everyone has a line. And everyone’s line is drawn differently. There may be cases that can legitimately be argued to go over my line, but that’s why context and specifics matters.
The general “oh it’s out there” is useless drivel.
Re: Re:
The same also goes for the consequences of saying horrible speech. We might agree that doxxing someone is an unacceptable consequence, and someone might believe that doxxing is an acceptable consequence. Therein the true discussion lies.
Trying to equate “cancel culture” (read: accountability for one’s words and deeds) with censorship without any concrete examples of how they’re both the same thing is…unacceptable.
Re: Re: Re:
Therefore, it would be perfectly acceptable for some random internet idiot to attempt to, and succeed, get someone fired for saying:
“I like birds”
Correct? That’s speech and a consequence.
Re: Re: Re:2
Correct? That’s speech and a consequence.
Sure. Give it a shot and see how it flies.
The outcome will certainly illuminate whether or not it’s the message for the slow people in the back.
Re: Re: Re:2
The company has every right to say whether “I like birds” reflects poorly on them or not.
Re:
“Remember that it’s none of your business to try to get someone fired, or doxxed, or disinvited, or in any way inhibit someone’s speech.”
Wrong, right, wrong, and wrong.
Free speech is not freedom from consequences. This is such a simple, easy-to-grasp concept but boy do some people struggle with it.
Cancel culture
I don’t believe that anyone who says anything controversial is offended by the idea that others will criticize what they say… most seem to thrive on those responses.
Cancel culture has nothing to do with you telling me that I’m wrong, or that I’m an idiot, or even that you hate me and wish to strangle me the next time you see me on the street.
Instead, it is when you are so fed up with my offensive opinions that you seek to figure out who is involved in my opinions being heard, and to goad them into pulling the loudspeaker cord from the wall. Perhaps you threaten to boycott them, or rile up our bumblefuck Congressmen to threaten regulation. You call the dean to see if you can get me expelled, my landlord to see if you can get me evicted, and my boss to get me fired.
And at that point you’ve crossed the line from “I’m just engaging in my own free speech” to some sort of privateering censorship. Censorship, after all was never bad because the government did it, it’s bad in general… the only thing it ever had to do with the government was that, until recently, only governments were generally capable of engaging in it. (Maybe, in the 20th century, industry groups also became capable of that… see the Hayes code.)
It’s not as if I will abandon my opinions and positions when you cancel me. It will only make me feel as if I am all the more correct for it, that I am persecuted, and that I should double down. My opinion that used to be bluster turns into conspiratorial rants to those I can safely express these things to.
I don’t see how anyone can think any of this a good idea. It might give you some feeling of smug satisfaction… for now. But this is the shit that will have us all at each others’ throats within a generation.
Re:
When people “cancelled” Louis C.K. for being a sexual creep, did he lose his right to speak, or did he only lose some high-profile gigs before eventually returning to doing stand-up comedy after enough time had passed? (Hint: It wasn’t the first outcome.)
People can get overzealous in their desire to “cancel” someone. That I won’t deny. But it is hardly “censorship” unless someone feels threatened enough to stop speaking entirely.
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Re: Re:
I’ll bite. I’ve actually reached that point.
Re: Re: Re:
And yet, here you are.
Re: Re: Re:2
“I have been silenced!” whines idiot who will not shut the fuck up.
Re: Re: Re: I think we all know the answer.
I’ll bite. What speech, specifically, did you feel too threatened to speak?
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Re: Re: Re:2
Considering Stephen T. Stone complained, I’m not going to bother saying now.
Thanks for showing interest, though.
Re: Re: Re:3
Just admit you’re a lying sheep already.
Re: Re: Re:3 Any day now...
That’s a seriously fucking weak dodge. You made the claim so you bring the evidence. That’s how it works bro.
Re:
So if you are a teacher where my kid goes to school, and read or hear you say some disgusting bigoted opinions, I can’t go to the school board, administration, PTA or town hall and speak up about how i and other concerned parents think those disgusting ideas disqualify you from working with little kids, and your employment should be terminated? Must I be forced to engage with someone who thinks I am undeserving of human dignity, possibly furthering trauma, so that a troll can troll some more and then pretend that I was the one not willing to have a candid discussion?
Am I to blame that you hold these awful ideas and can’t read the room on what polite society has decided isn’t acceptable, and have never made the effort to understand why? How much degrading treatment do others have to tolerate in your mind, before a bigot is shown the door, and if necessary given a shove out it?
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Re: Re:
When you surrender your children to the government indoctrination camp because you need free daycare, it’s always a little surprising to me that you’ll turn around and act as if this was a service you purchased from someone. It’s a bizarre form of entitlement.
We homeschool our two children. I have no opinion on your children or how you wish to educate them, supposing that is even the correct word for the minimum security penal institutions yours need rescue from.
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The fact that you’re referring to schools as “minimum security penal institutions” says you do have an opinion on how people choose to educate their children.
Re: Re: Re:
Brain-dead <> English translation: Critical thinking skills that leads to questioning corrupt authority figures
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>it’s always a little surprising to me that you’ll turn around and act as if this was a service you purchased from someone.
Do you pay taxes, and if so what do you think they should be used for?
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“Censorship, after all was never bad because the government did it…”
Let me introduce you to the First Amendment as it would appear you two have never met.
Re: Re:
Let me also introduce you to modern India, Singapore, Russia, China, Thailand’s lese majeste laws…
Re: Re: Re:
Cool strawman bro, but we are specifically talking about US law, do try to keep up.
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no cancel culture you say? What about this?
https://www.newsweek.com/karl-marx-study-room-name-changed-due-ukraine-russia-war-officials-say-1690072
Florida university removes Karl Marx name. For Russia war. A university. Karl Marx was not russian, he was german. Lived in Europe, then moved to London and died there, he’s still buried in Highgate cemetery. He was no russian. About he being a philosopher who inspired socialism, we all know socialism in Russia ended more than 30 years ago. Besides of that, Marx is not guilty of what happens centuries after his death. Besides of that, I’d like to know the history and opinions of someone and form my opinion, even if my opinion is different. I want consciousness and awareness, instead of cancelling history. How far should this canceling go? Would you cancel for example criminal history of someone as well? No of course, we want to know it. And this was a university, mistakenly canceling a 19th century german philosopher because of what happens in 21st century Russia, and Ucraine. There is actually a so evident problem with cancel culture, I hope you guys will overcome denial and make it to the acceptance phase.
Re:
I wouldn’t call that cancel culture, I would call that anecdotal evidence of how stupidity have seeped into every nook and cranny in the US coupled with people in power who must be seen to do something to justify their existence.
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Yes, changing the name of a room has totally cancelled Karl Marx. The poor guy can’t speak anywhere any more!
Re: What about "fuck your feelings?"
Ladies, Gentleman, and Everyone In-between. This right here is what passes for intellectual on the Right. Let us all point and laugh that they actually took the time and energy to make an account, only to turn around and spew whatever that horseshit was supposed to be.
Re:
Florida man cancels Karl Marx, thinking it could save Ukraine.
My god, Florida man’s done it.
Re: Re:
I can see the thought process here. Most likely, there was already controversy over the naming of the room. Probably from people who still equate Russia with USSR and therefore communism. So, once a situation occurs where it’s clear that the majority of people are opposed to Russia’s actions in the present, they take the opportunity to change the name.
It’s not remotely effective at the publicly stated aim, and absolutely nothing to do with “cancel culture”, but taken in the view of being an opportunistic way to get something changed with minimal opposition, it makes sense.
Re:
I’m not particularly understanding why this would be an example to point out, especially in the context of conservative values being canceled.
A Venn diagram of people complaining about this and the ones that call anyone left-leaning a Marxist, and with a negative connotation is probably a circle.
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Cancel Culture Is Very Real
I don’t think a lot of people view cancel culture as violation of free speech, but rather, certain objectionable actions regardless of action being legal or not. So-called certain “consequences” are morally debatable, even if it was legal to do so and I think a lot of the criticism of it was more akin to that.
For example maybe, someone speaks a lawful political opinion, then due to mental mobs, the person gets fired from their job. This may be legal, assuming it was, but it’s still an example of cancel culture. Some people were even harassed and doxxed for being exposed for a past that is no longer describes the person, which also exists and I’ve seen it a lot. There is definitely a disturbing pattern of people trying to get people off public existence, for innocent and/or old past poor choices, and there is nothing wrong with being concerned about a lot of that.
Some might argue that this kind of “cancel culture” always existed for so long, but that doesn’t change the concern and even then I feel like it was way more on the rise than it was before.
I agree that lawfully protected speech does not stop others from their lawfully protected speech regarding it though.
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Re: Oops
I should point out that sometimes firing from certain someone can be justified. By job, I mean a lawful one too.
I was mainly trying to argue that sometimes certain cases of what is maybe cancel culture can sometimes be debatable. If someone is still clearly a threat, like recent horrible things showing a risk at being at certain jobs for example, then I can see it being justified firing the person for safety.
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“Lawful political opinion” is a non sequitur, because all opinions are legal whether they are political or not. Even opinions from Nazis and white supremacists are entirely legal.
Re:
For something that’s “very real” which you’ve “seen a lot”, you seem a little light on actual examples.
Re: Re:
Meanwhile, people can point to the recent rash of anti-queer/anti-POC book bans and “Don’t Say Gay” bills popping up around the country—spearheaded by conservatives/right-wingers, naturally—as examples of censorship.
Re: Re: Re:
Left-wing “silencing”: nothing more than refusing to be a platform for bigoted opinions
Right-wing silencing: murder of targets of bigotry
Re: Re: Re:2
Or to put it in more concrete terms: Anita Bryant getting a pie in the face vs. Martin Luther King Jr. getting a bullet to the head.
Re: Re: Re:3
The left: “I don’t like what you said, so I refuse to support you financially.”
The right: “I don’t like the fact that you exist, so if I can’t kill you myself, you should be in so much pain you’ll do it yourself.”
Hyman Rosen: “bOtH sIdEs!”
Re: Re:
Cancel culture I think is the idea of making sure a person doesn’t have a platform or certain platforms anymore, legal or not.
Examples of it happening if I remembered right:
Roseanne losing her job because of a racist Twitter tweet.
James Gunn being fired for pedophile jokes (though this was taken care of for the better later than that) happening years ago before he was fired.
This thing.
https://www.cbssports.com/olympics/news/2021-tokyo-olympics-opening-ceremony-director-fired-over-holocaust-joke/
An expert who had a controversial opinion about a very sensitive topic, got fired due to what is likely emotional backlash. Something about stigma and pedophiles.
In a less direct example, there is ideas of certain controversial people never coming back and having a platform even after they changed for the good. I’ve seen some comments here and there expressing that.
Re: Re: Re:
Having the freedom to express your opinion is not the same as having the right to express your opinion whereever you want without consequences.
Having the freedom to express your opinion is not equivalent to having the right to an audience.
Having the freedom to express your opinion also means the freedom to disassociate from any opinion you deem bad for you or your business.
Re: Re: Re:2
Calling it “consequences” doesn’t make it right. It’s still debatable, morally speaking. Firing someone from their lawful job for a 30 year old joke they made, is VERY debatable, and calling it “consequences” doesn’t justify such ridiculous thing. I got a feeling that some people are arguing that they can’t be criticized whenever they call their crap “consequences”, which in some cases turns hypocritical too.
Re: Re: Re:3
Some people probably feel that way, sure. But most people here probably wouldn’t. I mean, I’ve said a shitload of stupid things in my life—some of them here on this website!—and if someone wants to hold me accountable for that, so be it. I am not above criticism.
Neither, for that matter, are you.
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Re: Re: Re:4
If by accountable, you mean someone disagreeing with you, then sure I guess, but remember you can disagree with them too.
Re: Re: Re:3
To debate if the consequences are justified or not is exercizing your freedom to express your opinion – which is totally ok. As is Disney’s rigth to disassociate from Gina Carano by not renewing or ending their contract with the actress.
The consequences may seem too harsh or better, you may deem them as too harsh. Nevertheless, they are a form of expressing an opinion.
As Evelyn Beatrice Hall wrote: I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Re: Re: Re:3
What, pray tell, is a “lawful job”?
Re: Re: Re:
No one is entitled to a platform or an audience at the expense of others. “Cancel culture” might run someone off of Twitter, but that someone had no explicit right—no entitlement whatsoever—to be on Twitter in the first place. Same goes for YouTube, Facebook, a Mastodon instance, Truth Social, and any other social interaction network.
“Cancel culture”, as you refer to it here, is nothing more than people experiencing substantial consequences for saying offensive things. In the past, they would’ve maybe experienced slight consequences (if even that) for their speech. But the world has changed, and personally considerate (“P.C.”) speech is considered more acceptable than racist slurs. The people complaining about “cancel culture” are upset at either who’s doing the “cancelling” or what speech is being “cancelled”. If said people could keep shitting on marginalized people without consequences, chances are they would do exactly that.
Re: Re: Re:2
1990: Christ what an asshole Bob is, he was raving on his lunchbreak about how the beaners where stealing all the jobs
2020: Did you hear? Facebook axed Bob’s account because he was raving about how the beaners where stealing all the jobs. The boss still have to ask him to shut the fuck up during the lunch break though.
Re: Re: Re:3
You know that’s not true. In 2020 we were all working from home. The only way that could be true is if the lunch break were over Zoom.
Re: Re: Re:4
Interestingly enough, there are actually some jobs that necessitates the presence of meatbags ambling around doing meatbaggy things.
In any way, it’s doesn’t in any way detract from the point I was making.
Re: Re: Re:5
Fair enough.
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Re: Re: Re:2
I’m not arguing that existing on Twitter is a human right. I’m saying it’s still debatable on a different but still moral level.
Calling debatable things “consequences” doesn’t change the fact that it’s debatable. Firing someone for a 30-year old joke is very debatable, just as much as it’s debatable for someone posting an very offensive lawful comment in the first place. Such things are a form of cancel culture, and trying to mask it as something as if it’s not the other people’s fault doesn’t change that it’s a form of cancel culture which is sometimes debatable.
I have a bad feeling that you’re one of those people who argues that people shouldn’t debate these things that happened just because they are considered “consequences” by some.
Re: Re: Re:3
I didn’t say anything to the contrary, and I’ll thank you not to shove words down my throat that didn’t first come from it.
What a person says or does to get “cancelled” is their responsibility. What other people do in reaction to that aforementioned person is the responsibility of those other people.
We can have discussions about whether certain outcomes of what one might call “counter-speech” are acceptable. But I refuse to debate whether people can engage in counter-speech even if/when some people take it too far.
Re: Re: Re:4
“What a person says or does to get “cancelled” is their responsibility. What other people do in reaction to that aforementioned person is the responsibility of those other people.”
The point I’m trying to say is that for example, it’s a choice to dig up certain stuff, and it’s a choice to try to get the person fired for it, and it’s a choice to fire the person for it. <When it comes to certain things. Some people use “consequences” like there is no fault in it.
“We can have discussions about whether certain outcomes of what one might call “counter-speech” are acceptable. But I refuse to debate whether people can engage in counter-speech even if/when some people take it too far.”
Then why did you argue that right to be on Twitter being debatable thing? Maybe we both are not on the same page?
The point I made about cancel culture, is the idea of trying to get something off certain platforms in many specific cases. That’s it. It doesn’t matter if they never had the ‘right’ to it in the first place. It’s the act of trying to take away certain stuff that may or may not have build up a person’s life. Like for example, digging up a person’s past for making an offensive joke and then trying to get the person off a lawful platform because of it, even through legal means. That, alone, is a real thing, and that’s what some people are trying to bring up.
Re: Re: Re:5
I’m not one of them. That said: If you say something stupid, you’re going to face consequences for it, and that is your fault. But someone going too far with the consequences they visit upon you is their fault. Say a racial slur and you deserve to be called a racist, not to be put in the hospital for it.
There is no “right to be on Twitter”. Usage of Twitter is a privilege—one that can be revoked at any time for damn near any reason.
Here’s my Hot Take™ about digging up past statements: I generally don’t give a shit. Whether what someone said in the past is taken seriously enough to warrant “cancellation” depends on a totality of circumstances, including any genuine personal growth the person who said those things has gone through since saying those things. A Christian in favor of gay rights would likely be pilloried for past anti-gay comments, but if they’re genuine in their change of heart and remorseful for their anti-gay past, it won’t be that much of a problem in the long term.
If you said some stupid shit in the past, the best thing you can do is come clean about it, apologize for it, acknowledge why the thing you said was stupid, and acknowledge any actions you’ve taken to prevent yourself from saying (or believing or acting on) that stupid shit you said. And no, not everyone will accept your apology even if you’re wholly sincere about your change in mindset and actions. They’re not required to accept it and you’re not entitled to their accepting it.
Re: Re: Re:6
“I’m not one of them. That said: If you say something stupid, you’re going to face consequences for it, and that is your fault. But someone going too far with the consequences they visit upon you is their fault. Say a racial slur and you deserve to be called a racist, not to be put in the hospital for it.”
Technically speaking, even calling out something actually stupid is still a choice, but if we want to ignore that kind of stuff and only argue that fault is toward more questionable things, then sure. For that, what is “stupid” sometimes gets mixed. Some very smart things can be considered “stupid” by emotional freaks who don’t accept science and physiology for example.
“There is no “right to be on Twitter”. Usage of Twitter is a privilege—one that can be revoked at any time for damn near any reason.”
Well when I was calling out “cancel culture”, I was looking at that on the moral ethical side. Kinda similar to how someone showing no ethical respect to “free speech” by wanting the person for it banned off YouTube for having a controversial, but legally allowed opinion. It’s even into common sense as many people has debated when something is “too far” within stuff like that if I remembered right.
“Here’s my Hot Take™ about digging up past statements: I generally don’t give a shit. Whether what someone said in the past is taken seriously enough to warrant “cancellation” depends on a totality of circumstances, including any genuine personal growth the person who said those things has gone through since saying those things. A Christian in favor of gay rights would likely be pilloried for past anti-gay comments, but if they’re genuine in their change of heart and remorseful for their anti-gay past, it won’t be that much of a problem in the long term.
If you said some stupid shit in the past, the best thing you can do is come clean about it, apologize for it, acknowledge why the thing you said was stupid, and acknowledge any actions you’ve taken to prevent yourself from saying (or believing or acting on) that stupid shit you said. And no, not everyone will accept your apology even if you’re wholly sincere about your change in mindset and actions. They’re not required to accept it and you’re not entitled to their accepting it.”
Well that’s your line, as you said I think.
From my line I guess, I was arguing that there was a line even though it’s likely different than a lot of other people here. I think digging up a person’s past over a joke made 20 years ago when the person was a comedian, and firing the person for it after, is morally (but not legally) wrong. I don’t even think the person even has to be pressured to having to make a whole public apology for it especially since some public apologies usually makes it worse. So my moral argument, for this one example, is that the person should not have been fired for it and that whoever is authorized to control the firing thing, should of just ignored those people trying to get the person fired.
In one thing, I advocate the arguable idea that it’s wrong to cancel a person away from a lawful job who changed for the good (but recent very serious past maybe should sometimes require proof of good change), and many people who calls out “cancel culture” has a somewhat similar mindset (with their own lines, I guess). I say cancel culture exist in terms of that one behavior I mentioned already, and I feel like many of those who say it doesn’t exist and broadly replaces cancel culture with “consequences” might be showing that they have a problem with people who morally objects to certain stuff, as if we shouldn’t call those certain things out with less discriminatory intention. If you’re not exactly one of those people, then great, but either way I’ve noticed a specific pattern of “cancel culture” as I call it, and also noticed a lot of people are noticing a weird unusual pattern of it too, and I think it may be good to notice it.
I apoligize for getting something wrong here.
Re: Re: Re:7
That isn’t an unethical take on free speech. Someone is allowed to say “I want that dipshit off YouTube” about any dipshit YouTuber. Ethics would only come into play if that someone lied (or did something equally as shitty) to get that dipshit off YouTube.
Anyone is allowed to ask YouTube if [x] is something they really want on the platform. YouTube isn’t obligated to take those requests seriously (unless they involve a copyright complaint, but that’s a whole other story).
For me, that’d depend on the circumstances. For example: Is the joke taking a potshot at people that your hypothetical ex-comedian might end up interacting with as part of their job? Because you shouldn’t want to have someone telling pro-Nazi jokes working at a Holocaust museum unless you think that, in and of itself, is somehow hilarious. (In which case: The GOP would like you to run for public office.)
The “apologies” you’re referring to are those non-apology/“I’m sorry if you were offended” apologies, where the person giving the “apology” basically blames their situation on everyone and everything but themselves and their actions. Those apologies show no kind of insight or self-awareness beyond “I get it, I can’t say this without a bunch of [plural slur of choice] crawling up my ass about it”. They don’t feel remorseful, only perfunctory. Those “apologies” make things worse. A proper apology includes a statement of remorse that takes responsibiliy for saying/doing the thing for which one is apologizing and a brief action plan for how one is going to make up for their fuck-up. An insincere “I’m sorry you were offended” is bullshit; a sincere “I’m sorry for what I said and here’s how I plan to make up for it” is right on the money.
Again, that comes down to a totality of circumstances. An employer might not want to keep someone on the payroll if that someone is going to make said employer look bad by being on the payroll. Or do you think someone who works with the general public should keep their job if they tell a joke that, let’s say, calls how they treat Black people into question?
And I’m generally on board with that.
I have a problem with people who don’t morally object to racism, sexism, anti-queerness, and other forms of hatred. Those people can fuck all the way off.
What you’re noticing is people finally getting tired of bigots being able to escape the consequences of their actions/words and doing something to make some form of consequences stick—even if it’s only something as simple as getting someone booted from Twitter.
I have to wonder if you’ve ever gotten popped in the mouth for saying something stupid. Not that I wish violence upon you or anything, but you’d be surprised how often people will learn to show restraint and discretion after they’ve experienced a direct (and sometimes painful) consequence for being a shithead.
Re: Re: Re:8
Note that I will try to short some stuff with “…” within “quotes” to make the reply seem more simple. It’s not to ignore everything not shown.
“That isn’t an unethical take on free speech. Someone is allowed to say “I want that dipshit off YouTube” about any dipshit YouTuber.”
“Anyone is allowed to ask YouTube i…”
I don’t entirely agree. If someone is offended by a controversial, but lawful speech existing on YouTube to the point that they want to limit the freedom to share such freedom of speech by banning the person off of YouTube, then at least maybe, it’s an unethical take on free speech. Like I said maybe, just because certain reactions to it are ‘allowed’ doesn’t change that it’s a reaction showing the desire to limit the person’s free speech from being spread.
If someone wants to ban a person who keeps abusing other members directly because of the abusive behavior, even though that might limit certain speeches that are innocent as a side effect, then that’s different.
“For me, that’d depend on the circumstances. For example: Is the joke taking a potshot at people that your hypothetical ex-comedian might end up interacting with as part of their job? Because you shouldn’t want to have someone telling pro-Nazi jokes working at a Holocaust museum unless you think that, in and of itself, is somehow hilarious. (In which case: The GOP would like you to run for public office.)”
The only time I can think it’s worth firing is if the person made the joke during such a job, and doesn’t realized how poor it was or something like this. In this one case, the joke was over 15 years old, and even then the new job was in the Olympics. I think it can be an issue to fire a person from such a place who brought innocent joy, over a small dumb joke he doesn’t even do anymore.
“The “apologies” you’re referring to are those…”
The problem with some public reactions is that they try to dictate that apology by requiring things not needed. All the person needs is to show regret, and show getting proper help or shown that he’s done such a thing if already done so and if necessary, be clear enough. Psychologically speaking, some things also do force people to choose bad things and some people want to point that out without intending to not improve. There was even this apology I recently found saying that he was going to get help and deal with the problems, and a bunch of people hated it because he wasn’t THAT specific (I don’t this one was that necessary due to the message) or expressed of wanting to come back after improving. That’s my issue with why it usually makes it worse, because no matter how one apoligize, one get hated more likely, except for maybe something that means “Hey, I’m sorry. I’m going to leave the very lawful career that made me so happy and never return.”, because a lot of society hates the idea of giving second chances to lawful careers to certain people that improved enough.
That being said, I’m not defending every “apology”, and sometimes being clear is important.
“Again, that comes down to a totality of circumstances. An employer might not want to keep someone on the p…”
Even then, your concept of “circumstances” is debatable.
If I ran a company and kept someone who made a really bad offensive joke 20 years ago, I’m not gonna let that stop me from hiring him, even if it made me “look bad” by what, a bunch of weirdos on Twitter? I would rather spread the message saying that it’s important to allow a job to those no longer causing problems, rather than discriminate in favor of s**** people.
“What you’re noticing is people finally getting tired of bigots being able to escape the consequences of their actions/words and doing something to make some form of consequences stick—even if it’s o…”
The thing I noticed are three things:
The message of “Get proper help, but don’t come back, ever.”
Going after people for merely being friends with bad people, supporting the person, as a person, while improving, and/or for supporting a person coming back to some things while improved enough or at least out of good reasonable faith of improvement. Some of these people don’t know what being responsible mean apparently. Someone I knew a bit got attacked for working on an innocent tool just because the tool was connected with a person who likely beated his wife and had some awful opinions. Some scream “enabler”.
Spreading concern to many individuals simply having a platform after they did their time. As if it should be the public to decide that.
These three things are something to be concerned about. This isn’t the same as saying “banning a person is always wrong.” either.
“I have to wonder if you’ve ever gotten popped in the mouth for saying something stupid.”
Except I wasn’t being stupid. Maybe I should try to explain a few things better, but I wasn’t acting stupid.
Re: Re: Re:9
I can want someone off YouTube all I want; that wouldn’t mean I want them permanently silenced everywhere. That would be unethical.
…on one platform. People who get booted from YouTube for being assholes can find plenty of other sites to use, and I’m sure a few of them would be welcoming of those…oh, let’s say “very fine people”.
It really isn’t. In both cases, someone wants another person banned because they were an asshole (and likely broke the rules). Using a racial slur while not directing that slur at any specific person and using a racial slur while directing that slur as a specific person would both run afoul of a rule banning the use of such slurs. For what reason should the first offender be given a pass and the other offender be given the boot?
Should an employer accept the fact that they’ve got someone working for them who happens to be an asshole when that employee is off the clock? To re-use my example: Should a Holocaust museum be denied the right to fire an employee who makes anti-semitic remarks on Twitter outside of their work hours?
I agree. If other people can’t accept that, that’s their own problem.
Vagueness allows anyone to bullshit an audience. Saying “I’m gonna get help” can mean anything anyone wants it to mean; saying “I’m gonna do [specific action]” means something far more concrete.
Two things.
“Sometimes”?
Hey, it’s your company’s funeral—if the outrage gets to a point where people boycott your business. (You could always lean into the outrage and try to attract people who weren’t offended, but that runs the risk of creating an offline version of the “Worst People” Problem.)
That isn’t my message; I wouldn’t generally endorse it. But if the “guilty party” (so to speak) showed no capacity for remorse or change, I’d say “let them stay gone”. Anyone unwilling to make a sincere attempt at being a better person—at expressing remorse for their shitty actions and affecting change within themselves to be less shitty—deserves no favor, affection, or pity.
Think of it this way: A person who makes a Holocaust joke can either sincerely apologize for it and genuinely work to never make another joke like that again…or they can say “I’m sorry you were offended” and make another Holocaust joke when the heat dies down. Only one of those reactions to a backlash makes that person deserving of a second chance (to me, at least). The other reaction makes that person a bigger piece of shit. Guess which is which and you win a No-Prize!
Not everyone enables shitty people to do shitty things, that much is true. But giving material support to shitty people and/or refusing to call out their shitty behavior makes someone an enabler. Your acquiantance was being an enabler if they were unwilling to call out that person for being a shithead.
Re: Re: Re:10
“I can want someone off YouTube all I want; that wouldn’t mean I want them permanently silenced everywhere. That would be unethical.”
You would still be wanting to limit the freedom of such certain speeches from being spread because you don’t like the idea of it being spread. And while you can ‘want’ it all you want, it can be debatable depending how you want it.
“…on one platform.”
Doesn’t change the fact that it’s debatable to be banned from YT just for having a policy allowed and lawful speech sayings of an opinion. It’s like defending government censorship on certain speech from the government banning a public protest on one street. I’m pretty dang sure that if I had a million subscribers where I wanted to state my opinion, and was banned for it and didn’t have that much of an audience elsewhere, I would probably find it fair to feel (but not 100%) silenced that way.
“It really isn’t. In both cases, someone wants another person banned because they were an asshole (and likely broke the rules). Usi…”
I should of probably used “policy allowed” too for the YouTube example. And to be frank, I was focused more about policy allowed and lawful speech being more of an ‘opinion’. For example: “I think homophobia isn’t that bad.”.
“Should an employer accept the fact that they’ve got someone working for them who happens to be an asshole when that employee is off the clock? To re-use my example: Shoul…”
That depends. If I’m an asshole to an IRL friend but my job doesn’t aid me into that, then I don’t see why.
“Vagueness allows anyone to bullshit an audience. Saying “I’m gonna get help” can mean anything anyone wants it to mean; saying “I’m gonna do [specific action]” means something far more concrete.”
I’m pretty sure it’s common knowledge to see someone saying “I’m gonna get the proper help.” to mean getting help to not do those bad things anymore, even if a bit broad sometimes. I don’t think a lot of people will know how specifically they will, but for the right people, it’s at least a step in the right direction.
“Two things.
…”
Yeah I mean lawful as in having a career that isn’t illegal and doesn’t involve illegal activity. lol
Yeah of course it is their own problem, but a lot of people exist like that, and physiologically speaking, it did make a lot of things worse.
““Sometimes”?”
Some people already get what some meant.
“Hey, it’s your company’s funeral—…”
When Disney rehired James Gunn through redemption, did company go out? When Adult Swim realized the bad taste pedophilia joke from whatshisname, but allowed a second chance, did the company get ruined? I think when more people stand up against this one problem, there is a chance that only the boycott from s**** people won’t much effect certain companies for what they stand for.
“But if the “guilty party” (so to speak) showed no capacity for remorse or change, I’d say “let them stay gone”. Anyone unwilling to make a sincere attempt at being a better…”
I meant: “Even if you do improve enough, you still can’t come back.” | “Come back as a better enough person.” would be a much better message.
“A person who makes a Holocaust joke c…”
I’m not sure if this is the best example. Being a comedian being a bit offensive but not in an illegal way, isn’t itself morally wrong, so I think that depends what kind of job the person has.
Maybe I suggest seeing how a lot of other people feel about “cancel culture” or “mob mentality” handling similar topics, including the story I shared about the 1998 joke. Not that I depend on popular vote as the source of an argument though.
“But giving material support to shitty people and/or refusing to call out their shitty behavior makes someone an enabler.”
Helping the person with an innocent tool having nothing to do (including no aiding) with RL bares no responsibility of such person beating his wife. If said crook decides to beat his wife again, then that’s 100% his own fault and anyone that is actually a complicit to it.. I can understand allowing a person access to a group of people online where such person had a recent history of online abusive behavior but even then that could probably be controlled and dumb trust mistaking would still have such abuser more responsible, but one should be careful next time. I assumed “enabler” means aiding a person to be, or continuing to be around other people where such behavior could happen.
The last part of what you said is dangerous as it literally applies millions of people. Simply not applying a job at the police station and instead playing Super Mario Bros. would be “enablers” of several criminals according to what I assume is your logic. | A person being friends with a bad person vs. not being friends with an abusive person where the first person isn’t calling out the behavior but isn’t supporting his bad behavior doesn’t seem to feel different too.
I assume you have other comments replied to me. I think for now I’m going to just focus on this as I’m a bit tired looking around here for the other ones and wish to make this easier here. To let you know, I’m not saying you’re harassing me or anything like that, just wanted to let you you know.
Re: Re: Re:11
Before I get into this with you: Please learn how to use markdown blockquotes.
Oh, am I not allowed to say or even think that “ideas” like advocacy for the psychological (and often physical) torture of queer people known as “conversion ‘therapy’ ” should be considered bullshit that no reputable social media service would want to align itself with?
News flash: I am allowed to do that. The First Amendment gives me that right. The funny thing is, nobody is obliged to take me seriously.
Being able to use YouTube is a privilege, not a legal right. That privilege can be revoked if you break YouTube’s rules. They get to decide what is acceptable speech on their platform, even if such speech is legally protected by the First Amendment. Don’t like it? Tell your reps to make YouTube host any and all legally protected speech—you know, get them to take a big fat shit all over that same First Amendment.
You can feel that way. But you’d be wrong. YouTube doesn’t owe you, or anyone else, a soapbox and an audience. If you get booted from YouTube, you can still go anywhere else that will have your speech; if your audience doesn’t follow you, I feel bad for you son, but I got 99 problems and your shit ain’t one.
Yes, opinions are legally protected speech. YouTube still has no obligation to host yours, mine, or anyone else’s.
No, it means they’re saying a lovely little platitude to bullshit people. (The degree of that bullshitting is irrelevant.) Vagueness is “I’m gonna get better”; clarity is “I’m going to do [x] to get better”. Clarity is always better than vagueness.
You’re talking about companies (Disney, Warner Media) that can largely ignore blowback from this sort of shit if they really want to. I mean, Disney gets pilloried in the press all the time, and every Marvel movie they release makes at least a half-billion dollars—that is more “fuck you” money that most people will ever see in their lives, and it’s literally a regular income stream for Disney.
If your company can’t afford to insulate itself against blowback for refusing to fire a bigot, your company will burn to the ground—figuratively, of course—when the firestorm finally hits.
I didn’t say shit about the person telling a Holocaust joke also being a comedian. People don’t have to be comedians to also tell awful jokes. Shit, I do it on an irregular basis, and nobody calls me funny. (They shouldn’t, anyway.)
Allowing a known abuser into a community—your community—would be your fault. Failing to “control” their behavior would be your fault. You don’t get to escape responsibility for bringing someone you know to be a shithead into your community and letting them be a shithead to others only because that person acted horribly. Their actions are on them; your actions are on you.
An enabler is a person who enables, either by action or inaction, someone who acts shitty to continue their shitty behavior. Knowing someone is an abusive asshole but doing nothing about it enables their abuse; so does actively pointing that person towards other people they can abuse.
Not really. An enabler would be someone who knows a crime is going to happen and either does nothing about it or actively aids in the commission of that crime. Not knowing a crime is going to happen and doing nothing about this thing you don’t even know is going to happen doesn’t make you an enabler.
All that evil requires for triumph is a good man willing to do nothing. Your alleged disapproval of their behavior means less than nothing if you know someone is acting shitty but you refuse to call them on it or warn others about it.
Re: Re: Re:12
I couldn’t figure out how to. I’ll just try to use the generic kind and see if it works. Also I am not a lawyer, just in case I need to say that for certain stuff.
It’s not about that you’re not allowed to criticize bad stuff, it’s trying to forcefully limit certain speech from being spread.
Again, you’re misunderstanding what I’m saying. The main argument I’m trying to say is that it’s morally debatable. I feel like you’re confusing morality and law here. Remember that I use the term “lawful” and “policy allowed” to make a more specific setting to serve the argument I’m trying to make.
Looking at some other things you said in the comment, I think I would still suggest the message above this.
It still doesn’t change that some people get what some mean, as someone who’s seen a lot of commentary over some apologies. I feel like the reality is that cancel culture freaks are trying to make up excuses, and I’ve seen a lot of commentaries showing that. Trust me, I may not be the best writer in the world, but that doesn’t mean I suck at debating this as someone who actually look at some commentary from both side.
Also some people are afraid to be clear due to fear of terrible things, and I mean really terrible things.
Still proving my point I think. Some companies survive.
Besides, due to mixed feelings of some people, there is a big chance that if the Japan Olympics didn’t fire the person, the company would of still been fine. If I owned a certain job, and some guy who worked at my place got exposed for an old joke, I would not only keep the person in, but I would probably even tell the public that we should not be firing a person for a 20 year old joke. Seeing how a lot of people are realizing how stupid firing people is for stuff like that in general, I got a feeling I would get praise anyway. Maybe not the crazy Twitter freaks, but some other people yeah.
Define “community”.
Nobody owns the cartoon, gaming, and Minecraft community for example. Those are just people sharing a common interest. The ‘interest’ wouldn’t be more or less risky in general, than merely being outside and respecting the person eating a large piece of pizza from some fridge.
Being friends with a shitty person and respecting the person’s right to enjoy a cartoon isn’t “causing” or “aiding” the person to abuse cartoon animators. Allowing a shitty person in a group you control that talks about it, is a whole different thing. Perhaps you mean that?
In terms of responsibility, I think that only makes sense when you are responsible of aiding the person into the more possibility first. For example, a physical relationship, one knows how abusive the person is and doesn’t stand up against it. Being together being the ‘causation’.
I don’t think merely knowing a crime is enough to being responsible for the conduct of another, assuming you want to compare “enabling” with that kind of stuff. https://www.wklaw.com/knowing-about-a-crime-and-not-saying-anything/
I already know racism is still real, but don’t do much about it. Am I supportive of racists all of a sudden?
Also want to point out that knowing what will happen is not the same as knowing a person without knowing what they will do in the future. I still would look at this as a different issue when it comes to abnormal high risk though.
Watching someone beat up his wife and doing nothing about it is at least questionable. This becomes different however if you knew the person’s past and just leave the person alone (friends or not) without knowing what will happen. The bad person reoffending is a separate fault regardless if you supported him as a friend, or isolated the person entirely as long as you didn’t aid him in any way to it.
Re: Re: Re:13 Correction I Think
“Those are just people sharing a common interest.”
I think I mean that it’s filled with different people sharing a mere interest into being into those, maybe.
I vote for a limited comment editing system here.
Re: Re: Re:13
Time for me to point something out:
No, it doesn’t. The abuse would happen if I didn’t know. Therefore my knowing and not acting doesn’t change anything. And thus I don’t enable anything.
You can argue morality of not dis-abling or dis-enabling but it doesn’t make me an enabler.
There’s those who feel a personal motivation for activism. And there are people who don’t.
Not acting is not any more right or wrong than acting.
Re: Re: Re:14
Exactly I think.
This person is even saying that I’m an enabler of racism because of the “silence” I’m apparently likely doing by simply not wanting to get on the bandwagon involving politics of BLM. At least maybe he’s not being hypocritical about the logic as far as I know, but damn.
I think moral responsibility of another person’s choice requires causation at first of some sort. So like, aiding a serial offending pedophile to a group of children in a place would be one of them. I really hope his concept of responsibility isn’t as popular as I’m fearing it is.
Re: Re: Re:15
I meant to replay to Stephen m, sorry.
I try do doge the left/right aspects of most things though.
I have the same issues with the Texas abortion law.
Showing this is not an aspect of political sides.
The false premise that not stopping something equates to “enabling” is very dangerous.the Texas law takes that to the extreme. Now everyone is a criminal. The gas station you bought fuel at. The restaurant you ate at. The car manufacturer of the car you were driving.
It’s a very dangerous, anti freedom, anti liberty idea to cling to. Guilty by 20 degrees of separation?
Re: Re: Re:16
Oh I know, I just wanted to show my somewhat agreement with you.
Re: Re: Re:13
Everyone has a right to speak their mind. Nobody has a right to force others into helping spread that speech. Any anti-queer bigot who gets banned from major social media services because of that bigotry can either make their own platforms, find platforms that are okay with that bigotry, or dive into the Dead Sea while wearing concrete shoes.
I’m not. Legally and morally, YouTube is allowed to dictate what speech it will and will not host.
And you’re doing an awful job of it because it’s redundant as fuck. Nobody here—including me—is talking about illegal speech, acts, or jobs. The commentariat here is well aware that a lot of heinous speech is legal to say.
Define “cancel culture freaks”. Be specific and aim for clarity.
Vagueness can be a moral imperative in certain situations. Issuing an apology for being a shithead isn’t one of those situations.
It’s the Olympics. Of course they could afford to weather the blowback. But most organizations want to at least appear to be paying lip service to ideals like “Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion”. Most organizations would want to avoid looking as if they employ bigots.
If that employee hasn’t changed their views in 20 years, and their views (as expressed through that joke) make clear that they’re a bigot, you’re likely going to end up losing business from whatever class of people your employee insulted (as well as anyone with a sense of decency). Then you’d be staring the “Worst People” Problem right in the face.
You mention the Minecraft “community”, so let’s start there. The Minecraft fandom is broad and encompasses all Minecraft fans; this much is true. But within the fandom are sub-groups—communities—dedicated to niche interests. You might find a Minecraft × My Little Pony community existing alongside a community for “permadeath” Minecraft players, and so on. Sometimes a community isn’t necessarily a specialty niche, so much as it is a collection of friends who share the broader fandom but who also share other interests. To oversimplify: If the fandom is a continent, communities would be cities/states within the fandom. (And some fandoms are small enough that they are a community in and of themselves. Think Australia, but with far fewer animals trying to kill you.)
A community within a broader fandom can’t police the entire fandom. But a community can always police itself. And if you’re knowingly letting an abusive asshole run rampant inside a community—through either action or inaction—you’re enabling that asshole. You can either help get them out or eventually enjoy a community suffering from that aforementioned “Worst People” Problem.
And the same goes for any community of people that isn’t built around a media fandom. Bringing someone you know to be an abuser into a group of close friends—a smaller community, but a community nonetheless—is the same damn issue.
Your refusal to act on the knowledge that your “friend” is abusing people does enable their abusive behavior.
Not really. If you learn that a man has been beating his wife since before you knew him, and you refuse to do anything to stop him from beating his wife after you learn about the abuse, you would hold responsibility for letting her receive another beating. You’d be an enabler of abuse. And all of that would hold true if we were talking about online harassment or any other hypothetical abusive actions.
As I’ve said: If you know an illegal act is about to happen, and you refuse to do anything to stop it, you’re enabling the people who would be committing that act. You might not be considered an accomplice in a legal sense, but you’d sure as shit be one in a moral sense.
You don’t have to openly support racists to enable their behavior. All you have to do is stay quiet. Evil triumphs when good men do nothing, remember?
And I haven’t said as much. If you bring someone into a community and they don’t show signs of being an abusive dick, their turning into one shouldn’t be on your head. You didn’t know they’d be a dick. But if you knew they were a dick and you brought them in anyway…well, that wouldn’t (and shouldn’t) bode well for you.
…fucking what
I’m confident in saying that if a man has been beating his wife since before you found out about it, chances are good that he’ll do it again after you find out about it. Inaction on your part would enable that beating to happen.
Remember what I said about evil? You seem to be the kind of person who would let it triumph only because you’re afraid of being labeled as “woke” or “a cancel culture freak” by shitheads who take those phrases seriously. Goddamn, dude, find your fucking spine.
Re: Re: Re:14
The idea I have is about defending the idea that there are people who wants to use the platform or wishes the platform to ban a person for a controversial opinion that is already allowed by law and YouTube, and part of the idea is about calling that culture out.
And people are allowed to call YouTube out for sometimes being over-reactive, or banning a person for what some find not a big deal. < Do you see the point I’m trying to make now?
Except that part of the moral argument was regarding what is allowed by law and policy. My argument isn’t a black and white thing about the entire “cancel culture”, or “what should and shouldn’t be allowed.” flatout.
I mean the type of people that sucks at handling it.
For the love o.. I’m just gonna make an example:
|Person gets exposed for being racist three times at his work during the week| person apologizes:
“Hey, about those allegations involving me at work with that behavior according to those allegations, I’m sorry about it and I have improved. I am afraid of being clear due to certain people watching me, but for those that know it, you know it.”
Well a lot of people are realizing that a joke made years ago doesn’t really define the true person, so some of those companies might understand that too.
This was intended to be about people for jokes where they don’t use it at their new job. For some of these cases I don’t even think you need proof of change due to how long ago. The way of how it’s handled can be debatable.
No regular individual can police even stuff like “Mincraft x My Little Pony”, because it’s not a single controlled place of interest about Minecraft and MLP, which can exist in their own groups. To say it can “always police itself” sounds like a support for most people there witch-hunting against anyone who has a right to share the same interest (gatekeeping?). Letting a person play Minecraft and MLP and sharing that with adults in a safe environment =/= enabling the person to the rest of the “community”. The only thing that can truly control an area, is certain places (e.g. that popular MLP forum, a Discord group about it). Respecting an abuser just liking MLP and talking about it by itself while moving on lawfully is 100% no different than liking food. “Communities” like those isn’t a REAL place. It’s basically just an abuser having an innocent interest alone.
But this isn’t about cartoons, this is about a person being friends with a person (a social issue, regardless of specific communities), and even then I was more focused about a person not knowing what the person is thinking about despite past.
#How am I supposed to know that the person will do it again? If I learned about the person’s past, and just wanted to stay away from the person (which is also no different than the effect of working with him on a completely unrelated innocent tool), and THEN the person thought of re-offending and doing it, while the innocent person had no encouragement and/or aiding of such idea, then it’s wrong to blame moral responsibility to said innocent person backing off. Seriously if I’m assuming right of you, your concept of “what is responsible” sounds made up.
##This concept of “moral sense” you have here is clearly debatable. If you support calling out people for not breaking the law of certain stuff, because of your delusional concept of moral responsibility, then you’re making up crap as an excuse to support public shaming and/or harassment toward an innocent person. Despite what I said about “moral argument” about the whole example of certain jobs and certain cases of free speech, a society completely making up what “responsibility”, having nothing to do with criminal complicit theory, is highly objectionable.
At this point I might as well say that you’re an enabler of criminals if you support some cases of cancel culture due to the evidence of how it discourages some criminals from changing.
So you’re literally calling me an enabler of racism and probably as bad as them just because I want to stay out of politics involving the whole BLM matter thing. Again, you could say the same thing about me not joining to police force at this point, knowing 99% likely (like the racist thing) that crime happens somewhere out there.
sigh this is what happens when society thinks they can make up bullshit about complicity having nothing to do with the the criminal complicit theory. This is why law should be the only one in charge of that.
This “when is it time to trust again.” thing has been badly debated. What’s the difference between trusting a person to not be a dick again than trusting a person with no bad past when you don’t even know them?
Besides, letting the person back into the “community” by letting them just enjoy Minecraft and talking about it with controlled adults isn’t different than letting them move on away from it. One possible issue is aiding the person have access to a group of potential victims.
(not hyperlinked, too lazy to re-enable that)
I was saying it’s questionable at least. I mean I thought I was on your side on that part…?
Please refer to # and ## here.
I learned that US prisons makes most criminals worse or same. If I was having that job to release a criminal (as part of my job) knowing the research, I guess I’m an “enabler” of any reoffending he’s done then.
Re: Re: Re:15
May I remind you of what the world was like before the Internet. The way to reach a large audience was to convince a publisher that your words were worth publishing, or a producer to make a record, radio show or TV show that you wrote. Failing that there was the do it yourself approach, or paying a printer or record factory to make and deliver a run to your front door. Not in that case distribution, and possible sale was up to you. Also a soap box on a steet corner was an option.
Now rather than celebrating your ability to publish your words via many routes, including this site, you moan that some sites, in moderating content to keep the largest user base tell you to go elsewhere. Find a site or service that allows you to say what you want, and try and attract an audience, however do not expect the people you want to attack to be there.
Re: Re: Re:16 Uh oh
Let me remind you of the days before the internet, but after networking.
First there were the usenets. The user networks. These were large mainframe, later workstations and minis, that hosted open forums for discussion. Some were heavily moderated. Some were free for alls.
Then we had BBSs. Price computers you could dial into. Most hosted one-way interaction. But some had chat and posing systems.
Anyone with a computer and a modem could host one. Or access one.
there were dialup services. Such as CIS and AOL.
People could join other users forums or create their own.
The idea of the internet being some advance in communication isn’t as glorious as it is made out to be today.
And let’s not forget that before the internet and today, every major city has underground publishers willing to print anything for anyone with cash. For far less cost than any slick big time publisher.
Independent publishing has always been a cornerstone of pushing society. From some novels and colour books to non-compliant comics to news, politics, porn, and yes: propaganda.
The idea that the internet offers something you couldn’t do before speech wise is misleading.
The only difference, as big as it is, is the reach. The number of eyes possible. And even here the less popular is still off in dark shadows.
Re: Re: Re:17
“Let me remind you of the days before the internet, but after networking.”
Of course, this means before the web but after the internet existed. BBS and Usenet were still the internet, it’s just that before Tim Berners-Lee created the thing that formatted things in ways that made information more accessible it was much more of a niche interest.
“Anyone with a computer and a modem could host one. Or access one.”
So… exactly like websites. There’s still nothing preventing a person from hosting a website on their desktop if they so wish, it’s just that it’s a long way from the best option for most people right now.
“there were dialup services. Such as CIS and AOL.”
You misspelled “walled gardens”. Competitors to those services offered wider access.
“The idea that the internet offers something you couldn’t do before speech wise is misleading.
The only difference, as big as it is, is the reach.”
This is true. However, despite the complaints from many people, that reach is still not a right afforded to anyone who didn’t do anything to generate it, let alone deserve it.
Re: Re: Re:18 Symantecs
Nobody who used time-share Usenet access called it or called it internet. And it’s really not. Inter network. Usenet in proper use (not todays name squatting file sharers) is a single network. Every one was an individual network.
Same with a BBS. It’s a single network, if it was that much.
Or Dialup services.
Prodigy and GEnie could be called “ walled gardens”.
After off-host access was added to AOL 2.x it would be considered a service hub. Allowing access to all sorts of “internetwork” servers not controlled by them.
Calling CIS a walled garden is simply rude (if not also ignorant). By the mid 80s it served as access to most large scale Usenet services via time-share slots. By the late 80s it was hosting transfer services for BBS access via VT. It was nearly perpetually a frame missing the walls.
At least AOL had guard rails.
And that ignores the actual point of the comment. The original, printed in America, Computer Shopper ‘catalog’ had massive listings that took up hundreds of pages. Or phone numbers. Access locations. Etc.
All you needed to do was send them the number. And they printed it.
Categorised by where the submitter said the focus was.
A phone book to the online world. Free from any corporate censorship in listing. They printed unless a court said not to.
And before that there was cheep independent publishing. These “rags” covered anything and anything.
Printed on news print and occasionally bound. Then type set on dot matrix printers, then staples laser printouts. And those have existed as long as printing in any fashion has.
You forget (?) right to print, later right to copy, was set up to stop private printing. Copyright
I’d argue the internet of TLDs and corporate search engines is far more accessible. Offers far greater reach. But working inside the confines of the “system” as opposed to the raw IP address or Onion or Garlic etc, today, it’s far more controlled.
Corporate bureaucracy (and many governments) decide what is and is not acceptable; what is and is not relevant.
You have freedom to create. But you have no freedom in public forum if the corporate giants refuse to list you.
Or they chose to list you dead last.
What is missing today is the likes of AltaVista or Computer Shopper and listings without bias or censorship.
You may not consider it useful. But true freedom comes from knowing. And if you’re not allowed to know, …?
Re: Re: Re:19
Again, the issue here is that we’re not really talking about removing a result but the organization of the list of results.
Re: Re: Re:18
Pre-Internet, or other electronic networks, you could get your work published if a publisher accepted it, or you could pay for physical copies delivered to your door, and you had to deal with distribution and selling.
What the electronic network, and in particular the Internet have provided is a means of self publishing for free, where other people can find your works, where comments are allowed, start a conversation. In its way, even a soap box cost more, as you had to devote lots of time to stand there haranguing people.
Re: Re: Re:16 Important Element of Lawful Speech
One main crucial thing about lawful speech is the ability to spread it. To try limiting that in some cases, are alone debatable. This “But you can still say it out loud with less people.” thing doesn’t work well here. “But YouTube has a right to listen to normies moaning about a reasonable but controversial opinion” doesn’t change the fact that we are allowed to debate about how something goes so far. I feel a sense of hypocrisy here…
I remember hearing Facebook censoring or limiting some political messages because Facebook staff was one-sided in the political area of things. I think it’s perfectly fair to call that out, even if they legally allowed to do so. Some got so pissed off about it that a law was being discussed about it.
Re: Re: Re:17
> This “But you can still say it out loud with less people.” thing doesn’t work well here.
Except it does. See, the First Amendment protects the right to speak freely—but it doesn’t say **a goddamn thing** about someone being entitled to an audience. You can yell on a street corner all day long; no one has to pay you any attention because you’re yelling.
> “But YouTube has a right to listen to normies moaning about a reasonable but controversial opinion” doesn’t change the fact that we are allowed to debate about how something goes so far.
You’re allowed to debate whether YouTube can fuck up, has fucked up, and will continue to fuck up in the future in re: the consequences it hands down for rule violations. But until such time as the law says otherwise, you’re not going to get away with attempts at debating whether YouTube can moderate speech on YouTube. It can moderate speech however it sees fit—including by “political viewpoint”.
Also: “a reasonable but controversial opinion”? What opinions are you referring to by saying that? **Be specific.**
> I think it’s perfectly fair to call that out, even if they legally allowed to do so.
And if you’ve noticed, people have done that. What we haven’t done here is debated whether Facebook has the right to moderate along political lines—it has the same right to do that as Gab, Parler, and any other alt-right Twitter-wannabe shitpit does. If you want to argue that Facebook can’t moderate political speech but Truth Social can, you’ll need one really fucking strong argument to counteract that hypocrisy.
Re: Re: Re:18
I was gonna try blockquoting stuff here, but I think I’m just going to suggest reading that one part of the comment I posted to you right around the same time talking about the issue with some places being allowed to ban a person for their speech or whatever it was.
The free speech thing was about acting like it’s dumb or somehow “wrong” ethically, not about who has the right. Taking away an 1-million subscriber audience over saying “death penalty is hypocritical, accept it conservatives!” where it would require an insane amount of, if not, impossible work to re-find those people, is an example of what’s clearly debatable.
So the “You can say it somewhere else” really doesn’t work well here because it limits the ability to let such voice heard and permanently takes away time to re-find the same people outside, if not impossible exactly. I think sometimes this is an issue, and not a black and white “who has the rights?” issue either.
Re: Re: Re:19
Which would be more morally abhorrent to you: losing a spot on a platform to which you weren’t entitled, or forcing that platform to host your speech when it otherwise wouldn’t?
Which would be more morally abhorrent to you: losing access to an audience to which you weren’t entitled, or forcing an audience to listen to your speech when it otherwise wouldn’t?
The First Amendment protects your rights to speak freely and associate with whomever you want. It doesn’t give you the right to make others listen. It doesn’t give you the right to make others give you access to an audience. And it doesn’t give you the right to make a personal soapbox out of private property you don’t own. Nobody owes you a platform or an audience at their expense. And to argue that you are entitled to such things is morally repugnant because your rights end where another person’s rights begin.
Re: Re: Re:19 Work well?
I think part of the problem in this debate is it’s not at all clear (to me at least) what you mean by “doesn’t work well here”.
Re: Re: Re:15
They have the right to say “this opinion is awful and YouTube should ban it”. They don’t have the right to turn their opinion into either law or YouTube policy. And if YouTube wants to ban that opinion of its own accord, that is YouTube’s right—because nobody can force YouTube to carry third-party speech it doesn’t want to carry.
When did I say they weren’t?
Even so, you don’t need to keep saying “lawful speech” because nobody is talking about death threats or other such incitements. Redundancy is an enemy of clarity.
You’re gonna have to be a lot less vague than that.
Two things.
And it won’t matter if the people who would do business with you but for the employment of that bigot don’t do business with you. Then again, you’d still have bigots on your side, so that would be worth…something, I guess.
It would sure as shit help, though.
That’s my point: Communities are smaller groups within a larger group, be it “Minecraft fans” or “all of humanity”. And yes, as a group gets larger, the ability of one person or even a small group of people to properly “police” that community becomes that much harder. (Like content moderation, community control doesn’t scale well.) But it is still the responsibility of those within the community to do something about its worst people—especially if someone has knowledge of one of those people being a shithead.
If you know that person is being an abusive shithead and you do nothing about it, it’s 100% no different than knowing someone is poisoning food they’re serving to others. Evil triumphs when good men do nothing. You’re really gonna want to remember that.
You’re not. But if you know the abuse was happening before you met them, the chances are good that the abuse will keep happening after you’ve met them…
…especially if, as you seem to keep implying through your comments, you plan to do nothing about it.
Hearing rumors about someone being an abusive prick is one thing. Knowing for a fact that the abuse happens and choosing to do nothing about it enables the abuse to continue. Again: Evil triumphs when good men do nothing.
The psychological and physical torture of queer people known as “conversion ‘therapy’ ” is still legal in a majority of states in the United States. Am I being a “cancel culture freak” if I say that everyone involved in that practice should lose all their credentials and the right to practice any kind of therapy or medicine? And before you answer, you should read up on what “conversion ‘therapy’ ” entails so you know that I’m not talking about regular everyday therapy.
I know for a fact that someone is being an abusive prick. I know that if I refuse to say anything, I’ll be responsible for letting that abuse continue because I could’ve done something to stop it but instead chose to do nothing. Am I being a “cancel culture freak” if I speak out about that abuse in the hopes that doing so will stop the abuse from happening again?
What—and I cannot stress this enough—the absolute fuck.
“… I swore never to be silent whenever wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented. Sometimes we must interfere. When human lives are endangered, when human dignity is in jeopardy, national borders and sensitivities become irrelevant. Wherever men and women are persecuted because of their race, religion, or political views, that place must — at that moment — become the center of the universe.” (Elie Wiesel, from his Nobel Prize acceptance speech in 1986)
“If you choose not to decide / You still have made a choice” (Rush, from the song “Freewill”)
If you know someone is being a racist dick and you do nothing—not even call them out on their racism—yes, you are enabling their racism. Same goes for sexism, queerphobia, and any other form of bigotry. And I know that you’re worried to death about “legalities”, so let me be clear: As much as their bigotry is legal to express, your opposition to their bigotry is also legal to express. Find your fucking spine.
And speaking of spines…
Trust, much like credibility, is like a spinal cord: It only takes a moment to sever, and if you ever regain function, you’ll never be the same again.
Someone who breaks your trust should have to earn it back. You won’t ever fully trust them again if they do, of course—and you’d be right to do so. But if that someone can prove (or at least reasonably seem as if) they’ve changed their behavior, cautiously trusting them again isn’t an issue. Everyone deserves a second chance.
But if they break your trust again and you insist on giving them more chances, that shit is all on you.
Watching a man beat up his wife and doing nothing to stop it is horrific. Even calling the cops would be better than standing there watching a woman getting beaten. What in the actual fuck made you think I’d agree with the notion that doing nothing about an act of violence happening in front of you is “at least questionable”?
No, you‘re not. A person released from jail may or may not go on to re-offend. (Chances are good that they will, recidivism rates being what they are in America’s near-entirely penal incarceration system. Rehabilitative incarceration would be better, but I digress.) Whether they do wouldn’t be on you, a prison guard, because it’s not your job to rehabilitate prisoners. Now, if an inmate mentioned wanting to kill someone once they get out, and you don’t do anything with that information until after that someone is killed…yeah, then you’d be an enabler.
You’re responsible for letting a crime happen only if you know said crime is going to happen and you do nothing to prevent it from happening. How do you not understand that?
Re: Re: Re:16
Looking at some of the stuff here, I’m just gonna re-write the entire point I was trying to make:
Is YouTube allowed to ban people off their platform for any reason why want to (as long as they aren’t violating certain laws (e.g. anti-hate laws)? Yes.
Are people allowed to say “Hey, I am outraged by this person saying that Nazies were not as bad as this or that! This person needs to be banned!!!11”? Yes.
Is YouTube allowed to bend down, or even abuse their policy by banning the person for something that out-raged a lot of people? Yes.
The entire point of this part I was trying to make is that it’s still a morally debatable thing, not as a “legal argument” but as a debatable moral thing. e.g. “I think firing that person from Burger King because of a drug crime 30 years ago is a bit too far.” despite them being allowed to do it. The amount of people who care about the individual being fired, exists too. I think the whole social issues under what is allowed by law can still be considered abusive at times. Sometimes a new group of people recognizing that issue some call “cancel culture” that makes certain individuals suffer more can help solve these issues, to help not fire certain people who needs money to feed their family. I.e. To not fire or ban the type of people who really doesn’t, safety wise, deserve it.
The movement to so-called hold some people “responsible” is not itself new, but it’s been rising and getting way more noticeable, and the issue is that some of these cases (including some pattern) has been making so much stuff worse, which is being recognized by good people, which is a good thing I think.
If you still have an issue with what I’m saying and you know what I mean here, then I find that rather suspicious and hypocritical.
Now I might bother not addressing a couple of points before the “enabler” part, but I’m just gonna state that for now I’m going going to bother addressing it and nothing else.
_
You didn’t even prove how. There is no difference between an abuser (as in, a person that keeps doing it) simply enjoying Minecraft or MLP mods of it, than same abuser not enjoying that. Since when is it morally obligated of those people to control it? Just because the person “likes what they like” of MLP mods?
Is witch-hunting against the person who likes to talk about MLP mods of Minecraft in their own spaces (not to be confused with aiding access to a big group of people) and then kicking/harassing the person out of that even really going to fix the problem when the risk is still no different?
If I worked at a Chili’s and I saw the person poison to food at the restaurant, then I think some moral obligation justice is due.
Knowing that a person is planning to go after another individual who likes MLP is not an issue about the abuser liking MLP alone, it’s just social issue. The “MLP mod fandom” is not like a restaurant, and any needed moral obligations should not mean special just because the person merely shares the same interest of a random cartoon blocky pony.
OK look, listen, I heard of this kind of stuff before I think. I even remembered when Netflix tweeted out something about silence being a complicit, but that is still debatable, and it’s wrong to accuse people who NEVER promoted racism in the first place just because they prefer being busy focusing watching some TV show instead of going outside to protest in favor of BLM. Besides, the “complicity” thing could only be useful for those that wish to do something about it, but I wouldn’t consider that LITERAL complicity whenever there is no causation of the individual toward any racist.
And again, why aren’t you joining the police force when you know that crime happens every day? Maybe you’re a complicit to criminals out there then?
The point I’m trying to make is that, it’s hard to know for sure. If I allowed an “ex-abuser” back into a community I control (well, a group within it more likely) but it turns out the person abused again. Is it my fault? If so, then what’s the difference between that and trusting a person with no bad past, out of faith, when something could cause them to lose their mind at nearly any time? Same with trusting a complete stranger online?
If you mean right away, then that makes a little sense (depending on what I intended, and if I really aided the person into getting more access to an area where abusive behavior is possible.).
When I said it’s at least questionable, I was saying it in the least when concerning the person who watched it. It can also be horrible too. It might also be depending on what the person intended, or froze while panicking and not knowing what to do is possible for some, when it comes to questioning the witness alone. Of course I encourage the witness to properly handle it, but don’t act like the witness is as evil alone depending on how the person handled it.
…
Remember the whole argument I was making about the community thing, and seeing a recent past of say, a wife beater, or an online abuser? You kept saying that the community should police itself against abusers (which I assumed you meant, those who recently did it, not necessary knowing that they will plan it right in there somewhere). Yet, you seem to be alright with letting a criminal back out on the streets knowing how sh*** the US prison system is. Isn’t that like, really hypocritical?
If the entire thing you were trying to argue about “enabler” was involving those that plan to abuse again, and the witness knew the person’s plan and does nothing about it (while I argued that it shouldn’t be a “community” thing in some cases, but rather a social issue in general), then I really want to point out that when I first mentioned the enabling thing, I was talking about talking to a person who has recently did bad things, but don’t exactly know if they will do it again, even if it feels likely in some cases.
_
One of the things I’ve witness was that a mob and including the victim and the friend of such person ended up acting like it was wrong to merely “contact” a “groomer” (who wasn’t even really a pedophile due to 2-year gap) BTW, just mentioning this to show how ridiculous it was) against a person who contacted the abuser trying to encourage the person to get proper help. In this case, nobody knew if the “groomer” was going to act again, and took offense acting like somehow this letting the person “sneak” back in the community despite no real aiding to any new offending happening as far as I know I think.
To rephrase one thing, this “groomer” had no known negative plan, and was just talking about wanting to be better and someone contacted the person in favor of that. Though the person did state of not being friends or letting the person back into the “community”(group, or just having a innocent interest? IDK), even though I don’t think being friends matter, and mob still went against that.
Re: Re: Re:17
I ain’t got the time to go through this shit as thoroughly as I normally would and the Markdown parser is busted at the moment. So in lieu of that, I’mma pick out a handful of points and reply to those. Paragraphs fully enclosed in quotation marks are your comments.
“The entire point of this part I was trying to make is that it’s still a morally debatable thing, not as a “legal argument” but as a debatable moral thing.”
You can debate the morality of any given decision, sure. But when people are debating the legality more than the morality, starting with the legality argument is a good way to cut through that bullshit. Yes, YouTube has a right to moderate its platform as it deems fit; no, I’m not going to agree with all their decisions; and yes, we’re all allowed to disagree with the morality of those decisions.
“The amount of people who care about the individual being fired, exists too.”
Yes or no: Should the law let the will of those people override an employer’s decision to fire an employee whose actions/speech end up hurting the employer’s business by way of negative association?
“If I worked at a Chili’s and I saw the person poison … food at the restaurant, then I think some moral obligation justice is due.”
I hope that includes, you know, calling the cops. Because it sounds like you’re far more interested in discussing the morality of people doing shitty things than you are in trying to stop someone doing shitty things.
“I even remembered when Netflix tweeted out something about silence being a complicit, but that is still debatable”
You’re complicit if you see people doing shitty things and don’t raise your voice about it. Or to put it another way: You’re complicit in a racist act if, say, a white person yells the N-word at a Black person and you don’t say or do anything to that white person about their bullshit—even if you would never say the word or think racist thoughts yourself. (I’m not saying it’d be right to punch that racist prick in the face for their bullshit…but I’m not saying it’d be wrong, either.)
“If I allowed an “ex-abuser” back into a community I control (well, a group within it more likely) but it turns out the person abused again. Is it my fault?”
If you knew the person was abusive in the past and showed no signs of remorse for it, but you let them into your community anyway? Yes, you’d be responsible for letting them abuse people in your community.
Think of the Catholic Church’s child abuse scandals: The higher-ups kept shuffling priests to different churches even though said higher-ups knew those priests had abused, and would likely continue abusing, young children. Those higher-ups were responsible for letting child rape continue in their churches because they knew it was happening, they could’ve stopped it from happening, and they instead chose to let it keep happening.
“what’s the difference between that and trusting a person with no bad past, out of faith, when something could cause them to lose their mind at nearly any time?”
Trusting someone with a known pattern of bad behavior means trusting them not to do this thing they’ve done before (likely multiple times) despite the evidence saying they’ll likely do it again. Trusting someone with no known pattern of bad behavior means trusting them not to do a thing they haven’t been known to do before. Your being unable to grasp this difference is your problem, not mine.
“don’t act like the witness is as evil alone depending on how the person handled it”
If you see an act of violence happen and you don’t do anything about it either during or after the violence, you’re not exactly evil—but you are letting evil win.
“Yet, you seem to be alright with letting a criminal back out on the streets knowing how sh*** the US prison system is. Isn’t that like, really hypocritical?”
Not really. Our prison system being shitty is no excuse for keeping people in said system for the rest of their lives.
Re: Re: Re:18
Honestly, I was often focused on the morality side. I started with showing that cancel culture exists (which was mainly referring to the moral issue side). I do believe I should of said it better however though.
But he already said it. I am not sure what he is doing now. I’m not obligated to try to bring in criticism every time I witness something hateful that already been done, even if he’s likely going to do so again. I never, in this case, was the causation in the first place, so I have no duty do anything special of that unless I am required by law. Same goes for the millions of other Americans who moved on. Going back at the BLM thing, this was more about not exactly knowing who is planning here and there despite likelihood. If you say I’m a complicit anyway, then you’re saying that to billions of people in the world.
I heard that a person not reoffending for many years is on itself evidence of change for the good. Your concept of that being “responsible” vs. trusting out of good faith due to some form evidence doesn’t seem to show a physiological difference too. This isn’t to say that I would let an offending pedophile person with a recent known past with no signs of strong improvement in, that would probably be reckless, I’m just making a point.
In the end, you’re still responsible in a way for trusting the person into a place you control. Some people act like trusting an innocent person is always better just because of “innocent” even though sometimes a person with a bad past could be safer than some “innocent” people. This was part of the reason why I made that comparison.
I’m against LWOP with no exception, I was just trying to make a point about the whole responsibility argument.
And yeah I know I’m about 3 days late. But if you do reply, I might try to end it with a basic message about the whole enabler thing.
Re: Re: Re:19
If you’re right next to the prick and you don’t either distance yourself from the bastard or criticize him openly…well, there’s a saying about 10 people sitting at a table with a Nazi that you may want to look up.
They still did the bad thing and got away with it, though. You do understand how that’s still bad, don’tcha? Because even if a Catholic priest only ever molested one child and never did it again, his not being turned in to the authorities by his superiors means he got away with molesting a child. The molester and his superiors would all be complicit in both the molestation of a child and the subsequent cover-up.
Yes, that’s my point: You’re responsible for that trust—with both your community and the person you’re bringing in to said community. If that person breaks your trust and you had no idea they were going to do that, that’s on the asshole. But if you knew that asshole had a history of doing what they did, you knew they were likely to repeat that behavior, and you brought them in anyway? That’s on you.
Each individual person has to make that decision for themselves. But the existence of a pattern of bad behavior, regardless of any alleged reform since said behavior, will always make people wary. And yes, someone who seems “innocent” is capable of turning out to be an asshole—anyone who says otherwise is either naïve or lying.
You made a shitty point in a shitty way.
Re: Re: Re:20
Sorry for like a longer wait. If you don’t want to debate, you don’t have to.
Yet how does me distancing myself make a difference?
Getting “away with it” is on itself (at least, maybe depending on the case) victimless, nor does it rule out the possibility of changing for the good after doing so. Many people learn from not exactly being exposed, usually for stupid crap.
If you mean “complicit” by helping the person get away after the fact, then “accessory after the fact” would be the better argument here. Even though, none of this changes the fact that people can change for the good without being caught after the fact. This isn’t to say that we should let people get away with bad things, as my argument was situational.
Some of your other argument sounded a little different if I remembered right. But anyway, one of my points is that there is no difference between trusting an “innocent” person than a person with a history. If he does it again while trusting, it’s either on both, or none. It can be hard to tell what is “likely”.
What people think doesn’t change the reality here. I was basing off logic, and realism, not people’s feelings, even if it’s understandable.
Mine wasn’t a shitty point. Also make sure to join the army if you can. You KNOW there is a war going on against Ukraine, and if you don’t, then you’re a complicit, like those who who you think is a complicit for wanting to stay out of politics involving BLM.
Re: Re: Re:5
“Then why did you argue that right to be on Twitter being debatable thing?”
It’s not a debatable thing – you have no right to be on Twitter if they don’t want you there.
Re: Re: Re:5
By all means, let’s have a discussion about “at-will” employment. I’m concerned about that too.
But that’s different from firing someone for behavior that makes their colleagues or customers feel unwelcome. If your actions make the workplace not work well,, you might be at risk at losing your job. Though to be honest if you’re powerful or in a group with power, odds are you’ll still face no consequences as has been the usual outcome forever. (Certain people are freaking out about “cancel culture” now because they’re actually facing some social consequences for their speech for the first time ever, while everyone else has always had to deal with those consequences.)
Re: Re: Re:6
And in the latter case, some people faced consequences—and still do!—for daring to exist (e.g., gay people being fired from their jobs for being openly gay).
Re:
What opinions are you referring to here? Be specific.
Re: Re:
Oh, you know the ones.
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Re: Re:
I mean speech that is lawful. Some speech isn’t.
Re: Re: Re: Oh it’s one of those people.
You didn’t answer the question.
Re: Re: Re:2
Despite my mistake of forgetting “political”, I meant political messages where it’s said without breaking the law. I can’t get anymore specific than that.
Re: Re: Re:3
Yes, you can. That you refuse to do so tells me the answer, though—one best exemplified by this hypothetical exchange:
Conservative: I have been censored for my conservative views
Me: Holy shit! You were censored for wanting lower taxes?
Con: LOL no…no not those views
Me: So…deregulation?
Con: Haha no not those views either
Me: Which views, exactly?
Con: Oh, you know the ones
(All credit to Twitter user @ndrew_lawrence.)
Re: Re: Re:4
Lawful political opinion; speech that is political, without saying something that would break the law while being political.
Example of unlawful speech: Someone saying they vote for Trump, while also inciting violence. I say “lawful” a lot because I don’t want to broadly defend certain speech. I’m usually paranoid about it.
Re: Re: Re:5
Racial slurs and anti-queer slurs are lawful speech. That doesn’t mean I support or defend such speech outside of its legality.
If you’re not willing to talk about which specific “lawful political opinions” you’re referring to, I can only assume that, as the bit I posted above posits, I already know which ones. Cowardice is its own answer—one that doesn’t speak well of you.
Re: Re: Re:6
I’m not being a coward, when I say specific, I just mean “speech that isn’t breaking the law”.
If you want examples, then fine:
“I vote for Trump.” Lawful
“I vote for Biden.” Lawful
Someone saying the same thing but also trying to get someone to illegally break into certain facilities? Unlawful.
I literally find it dumb to even bring this up just because I said “lawful political speech” (or whatever it was) in an example of something. There is no hidden specific political one-sided thing I have in it except for the fact that I don’t want to broadly defend (out of fear of being responsible, in general, for it) certain speech.
Re: Re: Re:7
In the words of Rush: “If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.”
Racial slurs are legally protected speech, but I don’t defend them in any way outside of the fact that they’re legally protected speech. That doesn’t make me someone who defends, on a moral and ethical level, anyone who uses racial slurs. Fuck ’em.
You can say “I don’t approve of racial slurs, but I don’t think people should be fired for saying them” if you want. You can even replace “racial slurs” with literally any other kind of offensive speech. If I can defend the legality of that language without defending it on a moral or ethical plane, so can you.
So again, I’m going to ask: Which kinds of lawful political opinions were you referring to? Be incredibly specific.
Re: Re: Re:8
Just in case this is about the “certain speech” thing, I meant that I didn’t want to feel responsible for any speech that promotes illegal activity. The only other reason why I said it was likely to make the first part of the example more innocent to further justify my point about one thing.
If it’s that one thing, when I said “lawful political opinion”, I meant any lawful political opinion. Even saying “I think the nazies was good people.”, assuming it’s legal to say that, on their Twitter page would be dumb to get fired over. A group mention can still be specific in it’s own right, and this one was clearly one of them, as this was about the idea of firing someone for having a political opinion while still protected by the US first amendment. I probably should of been specific about where the person was saying that though (some jobs require people to keep politics to themselves), but that’s about it.
If not then I think I’m done talking about this.
Re: Re: Re:9
Defending the legality of offensive speech doesn’t do that. At all.
Any speech that does not call for illegal activity is legal to say in the United States—which means that yes, you can openly and actively say “the Nazis did nothing wrong” without the government jailing you for it. Whether your employer wants to keep employing you after you say that, on the other hand, is a decision they’re allowed to make.
Your speech is legally protected. A private sector job isn’t. Say something racist and your employer has every right to fire you.
You should’ve been specific about the speech they were saying, too. Vagueness doesn’t make for a great argument.
Re: Re: Re:10
I’m just gonna mainly ignore the other stuff here and only respond to the last part.
“You should’ve been specific about the speech they were saying, too. Vagueness doesn’t make for a great argument.”
As I said kinda, a group mention can sometimes be specific enough to serve the whole point of an argument.
Better example, “People shouldn’t be fired from a regular lawful job for having an opinion in their own head.” does not require any specifications of what opinion that is, because part of the argument is that people shouldn’t be fired for any belief in their own head, no matter how horrible it is, even if they have the right to fire someone for it.
Re: Re: Re:11
Again, not sure why you’re using the phrase “lawful job” here (seriously, what the fuck), but I happen to agree.
Re: Re: Re:
What lawful speech were you referring to? Be specific.
Re: Re: Re:
‘I like chocolate cookies’ is lawful to say.
So is ‘The only problem with WW2 is that the wrong side won’.
‘Lawful speech’ covers a lot of ground so if you’re going to use it in an argument you’ll need to be specific about which speech you’re talking about.
Re: Re: Re:2
Also, it depends on audience and venue. The statement about the war is using your free speech and expressing ideas and might be fine in some venues. But, if you’re saying it to people at the Holocaust Museum you shouldn’t be surprised if you get a reaction from others that indicates that you might not be welcome there again.
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Re: Re: Re:3
So you’re saying that the person should be fired for making a joke, 30 years ago when the person doesn’t even do that anymore? It makes sense when you’re talking about someone being very offensive right in the job, but it becomes debatable to dig up a person’s past that long ago, and then firing the person for it in an average job.
Re: Re: Re:4 You’re making me use all my copypastas today, damn.
otherwording (or in-other-wordsing) — noun
Example: You will often find the phrases “in other words” or “so you’re saying” at the beginning of an instance of otherwording.
See also: strawman; your post
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Cancel Culture
“Cancel culture” is not about criticism of speech. It’s about attempts to silence and shout down speakers. This happens repeatedly on college campuses, for example, when conservative student organizations invite speakers hated by the woke (at Yale, recently, for example). It happens to college professors who are removed from teaching assignments because the woke raise complaints about them (such as the law professor who used “n_____” in a hypothetical case – written as shown, not with the correct word itself). The woke would like to pretend that they are not doing this when they are challenged, but they are liars.
Furthermore, private platforms are censoring speech to conform to woke ideology. That they are within their legal rights to do so does not mean that it is not cancel culture. For example, Twitter just gave a suspension to the Babylon Bee for its satirical post naming Rachel Levine as its Man of the Year.
Farming out censorship to private companies who own the premier platforms for speech and who are not subject to the 1st Amendment is, in fact, cancel culture and an abrogation of freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is not synonymous with the 1st Amendment.
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I am more than happy to be the first person on Techdirt (so far as I know) to formally invoke Godwin’s Second Law.
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“It’s censorship” said nobody with the slightest understanding of the meaning of the word, ever.
Re: Whatever happened to "fuck your feelings" bro?
“Farming out censorship to private companies”
Wake me up when the government actually does this.
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Re: Re: When the government...
Why do you think that it’s censorship only when the government does it? Was it not not censorship when network TV “standards and practices” didn’t let something air? Those people were literally called censors by everyone. Censorship is when people are prevented from expressing their opinions. The government isn’t allowed to do that, but it’s no less censorship when it’s done by people who are allowed to do it.
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Wow bro you really whipped the shit out of that strawman. Let’s try this again for the slow kid in the back. Where specifically is the government instructing private companies to censor people?
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“Was it not not censorship when network TV “standards and practices” didn’t let something air?”
Yes, because they were regulated by a federal authority who had that power in return for the ability to use publicly owned airwave frequencies to transmit. Cable didn’t have this regulation because they weren’t using public property to operate.
So, something was called government censorship when it was censorship ordered by the government and not when it wasn’t. Why is this shocking to you?
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Not when alternative ways of distributing the material exists, like video tape, or even writing and publishing a book.
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Re: Re: Re:2 Writing A Book
Writing a book (or a magazine) has never been a way to have free speech. There is a long history of printers refusing to print material that they found offensive. Not publishers – literally the companies whose job it was to put ink on paper.
Would-be censors love “alternative ways of distributing material”, because that’s a great way to assure that the material is never seen it heard. It’s colleges who establish “free-speech zones” the size of a handkerchief in a place on campus where no one goes.
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Since when did the First Amendment ever guarantee anyone the right to be heard or have their speech published by a third party?
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You mean it doesn’t have a clause allowing you to hijack use of the publisher of your choice in order to force them to print/host content of your choosing regardless of their wishes?
Crazy, with how many people seem to think they have a right to the platform(s) of their choice I was sure something like that was in there…
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Re: Re: Re:5 Refusing to Publish
Insisting that freedom of speech is isomorphic to the 1st Amendment is something that the woke like to do because they have managed to convince private companies to perform their censorship for them, and so they can disingenuously claim to be for freedom of speech while simultaneously canceling their opposition.
Freedom of speech is the ability to speak without being shouted down and without being permitted to shout down others. And it is important to distinguish between publishers and platforms. Facebook, Twitter, Google, the post office, the phone company, internet service providers, FedEx, UPS, and printers are not (for the most part) publishers. They are platforms. They serve as the means for individuals to communicate with each other. They are (again, for the most part), not publishing their own speech, but the speech of the people who use those platforms. As such, whether or not they have a legal requirement to be content-neutral, they should be content-neutral if they want to claim the mantle of freedom of speech.
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No, it isn’t. You don’t lose the ability to speak when you’re shouted down—you lose only the ability to speak at that moment, in that space, in front of those people. You can find a different venue with a different audience and say the same shit you were going to say.
You have a right to speak your mind. Unfortunately for you, so does everyone else.
Ooooh, you opened a door that you might not have wanted to open. But let’s keep going and see what happens!
Assume that I agree with your belief—that I believe free speech is “the ability to speak without being shouted down”. Now consider the following situation: Gay people are driven off Twitter en masse because Twitter, having taken a “content-neutral” stance, now allows users to post anti-gay slurs without punishment of any kind. (Such language is legal, after all.) The same goes for people of color (racial slurs), Jewish people (anti-semitic slurs), and women (misoginystic slurs).
If we take your belief in what free speech is as a sincere one, under the logic of such a belief, wouldn’t a “content-neutral” stance silence people because of all that “free speech” other people are slinging their way? And I’ll remind you that all the slurs you can think of are legally protected speech, so you can’t say “but Twitter can ban illegal speech”—you have to square your belief with the notion that the consequence-free speech for which you advocate may end up silencing more voices than it bolsters.
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Re: Re: Re:7 Free Speech
In the recent Yale incident, as in so many others, a conservative group invites a speaker to speak to an audience interested in what they have to say. A woke mob attempts to stop the speaker from being heard by that audience. You might like that this happens, but that is not freedom of speech. It is the opposite.
A content-neutral stance means that platforms that provide a forum for the speech of others will not censor speech that significant percentages of their audience wants to hear. Speech that vanishingly few people want to hear, such as commercial spam, can be removed without damaging the freedom to speak. And as Techdirt constantly says, the solution to people not wanting to see certain kinds of speech is for the platforms to provide tools so that affinity groups can form and screen out what they don’t like, rather than the platform deciding for everybody. If Twitter can block anti-gay slurs for everyone, they can provide an opt-in button for people to individually choose to block anti-gay slurs so that they never see them, and thus will not be driven off by them. They could have it all on by default, so new users will never see the the things Twitter thinks are bad unless they ask for them.
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What would you say if the speech you’re talking about just so happens to chase off a less significant part of the userbase that a service like Twitter wanted to keep? (For example: A newfound prevalence of anti-gay slurs—which are legally protected speech—meant to alienate LGBTQ users on Twitter makes all of those users leave Twitter.)
Companies like Twitter want to attract the largest audience possible for their services. They can’t do that when they’re letting bigots and assholes—or the fear of losing users who are bigots and assholes—dictate what speech is and isn’t acceptable on Twitter. Letting that part of a userbase dictate moderation policy only ever ends in that service suffering from the “Worst People” Problem.
Spam is legally protected speech, just so you know.
For what reason can’t—shouldn’t—Twitter do both?
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How is an optional banning and censorship policy different from a mandatory one, except that it lets people hear the speech they want to hear? A platform can provide lists of users whom they have declared as being promulgators of particular viewpoints, and people who disagree with those viewpoints can choose not to see anything written by those people.
Whatever. It’s been clear for a long time that freedom has only a tiny constituency. Most people want their opponents to be silenced. The woke despise every bit of the 1st Amendment as much as they do the 2nd – freedom of speech, of association, of religion, of petition.
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Invoking Godwin’s Second Law. Your post is horseshit.
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Hyman Rosen asked:
How is “X” different from “literal opposite of X”?
Yeah, that’s a tough one. A real head-scratcher.
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And those who want to attack the LGBT community will use those filters to find ways to work round them. As a result the only way of blocking such attacks is ti ban the people who carry them out.
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Translation: Hyman Rosen here demands actual censorshipto stop hallucinatory censorship.
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Which would lead to the death of the internet’s ability to have a place any and every opinion.
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Shutting down free speech fascists don’t like is, of course, the main goal of free speech-haters like Hyman and Koby.
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Not to mention that spam is perfectly legal, yet twitter bans it. Spam is also the only comments on TechDirt that actually gets deleted (Not even obnoxious trolls have their comments deleted).
Be careful what you wish for, Hyman!
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“No, it isn’t. You don’t lose the ability to speak when you’re shouted down—you lose only the ability to speak at that moment, in that space, in front of those people. You can find a different venue with a different audience and say the same shit you were going to say.”
Doesn’t the same happen whenever a government violates the first amendment at least 99% of the time? I mean, if I was stopped from protesting on the public street where it was protected legally, by government, I could always say my protected speech to a new group of people else-where.
Pretty sure being silenced just means being prohibited from being able to have a say in many areas. It’s preventing the word from being spread in the least.
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The point is that the government generally shouldn’t be doing that.
The New York Times, the Washington Post, and even Breitbart won’t print my Techdirt comments. I have been silenced!
See the above link for my rebuttal to that.
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It’s not that being silenced technically is always bad. The concern is usually more about trying to prevent someone from spreading certain messages because it’s deemed offensive to a group of people. Similar to censorship (removing certain stuff through some kind of outrage or whatever the definition of it requires).
I’ll admit there might be lines here too.
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Really? Do you think there might be some lines in re: preventing bigoted speech from showing up on social media services that actively discourage bigoted speech from being posted?
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In the real world, it’s “preventing onseself from spreading someone else’s certain messages.
It’s 0% about controlling the speaker.
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For what reason should anyone be content-neutral, especially in regards to speech they don’t want to be associated with?
Regardless, there is no such thing as content-neutral since every publisher or platform has a target audience they want to attract. Any platform who have professed to be content-neutral as far as the law allows, they have all become cesspools where a normal user will never thread.
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All the first amendment, along with freedom of the (printing) press is that you can publish stand on a soap box and try and attract an audience, and publish your words at your own expense, and try to distribute or sell the product.
Nowhere do those amendments promise or require any third party to aid you in getting your words out, and any such assistance is a voluntary action by the third part, and that includes any contracts required for the publication.
Back when I was a student, I spent time cranking a Mimeograph, as that was the only way protest flyers were going to get printed.
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“… legal requirement to be content-neutral, they should be content-neutral if they want to claim the mantle of freedom of speech.”
Congratulations you just killed every form of media that has guests on it.
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The non-disingenuous way to put it:
Babylon bee’s disgusting transphobia clearly violated reasonable posting standards, no matter how much they declare their shatirical goat-fucking is only ironic.
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Re: Re: Disgusting Transphobia
We are very far from a universal social consensus over whether transwomen are women or transwomen are men. Pretending that the latter opinion is regarded as “disgusting transphobia” by such majorities that it is clear that it is OK to suppress it is exactly woke cancel culture in action.
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Only in the way there’s “no consensus” about the reality of global warming.
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Re: Re: Re:2 Consensus
The funny thing is that when we do reach that sort of social consensus, censorship and cancellation seem less necessary. People don’t worry overmuch about what the flat-Earthers are saying. It is precisely in the case where there is no true consensus that each side seeks victory through silencing the other. Liberals seek to ban “conversion therapy”. Conservatives seek to ban “gender-affirming care”.
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That’s exactly that kind of shit-headed false equivalence that proves you understanding absolutely nothing about what you parrot.
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Liberals seek to ban “a known to be damaging series psychological pressure”. Conservatives seek to ban “types of medical care they don’t like.”
Fixed your quote for you bro.
Well said, Mike!
What it all comes down to is people feeling that they should live free of any constraints, even people calling you a jerk for being a jerk.
You can tell who’s anti-free-speech by seeing who declares that companies don’t have the right to say who represents them publicly.