‘Preeminent’ Constitutional Legal Scholar Files Embarrassingly Confused Amicus Brief In Favor Of Texas’ Ability To Tell Websites How To Moderate
from the i'm-embarrassed-for-you dept
In 2021, Columbia Law professor Philip Hamburger, whose own website at the school describes him as “one of the preeminent scholars writing today on constitutional law,” beclowned himself in the pages of the Wall Street Journal’s editorial pages (which seem always open for a beclowning, so long as the beclowning supports Rupert Murdoch’s blinkered worldview).
He first wrote an op-ed attacking Section 230 of the CDA, but which got almost all of the basic facts wrong. It’s one thing for graduates of Twitter Law to make these kinds of mistakes, but a supposedly “preeminent scholar” on constitutional law who made it appear as though he had neither read the law, nor any of the many (many, many) court rulings on the law, is kind of embarrassing. Indeed, the most embarrassing part is how this “preeminent” constitutional scholar didn’t seem to realize that it’s not Section 230 that enables the right for a website to moderate, but the 1st Amendment. Rather than realizing that maybe he was in over his depth, Professor Hamburger pulled a Principal Skinner and insisted that, no, it was the children who were wrong. He wrote a second WSJ op-ed, arguing that, according to him (and basically him alone), websites don’t actually have a 1st Amendment right to moderate. It was even more embarrassing than the first one. I honestly feel bad for students at Columbia Law who apparently will be learning blatantly false interpretations of the Constitution.
Either way, it’s one thing to be wrong on the pages of the WSJ’s opinion section. It’s another thing entirely to file your wrongness in a court of law. But that’s what preeminent constitutional law scholar Philip Hamburger has now done, in filing the wrongest amicus brief I’ve seen in a while, in support of Texas’s unconstitutional social media content moderation law.
Over the last few years we’ve seen repeatedly how confused Twitter LawTM graduates love to cite the Packingham case to mean something it very clearly does not mean. In Packingham, the Supreme Court (properly) ruled that government laws that bar people from the entire internet clearly go too far. In that ruling, the majority opinion mentions that it is unconstitutional for the government to bar people from going online, because the internet represents “the modern public square.” Unserious people have, incorrectly, taken this to mean that the Supreme Court has declared private websites some sort of quasi-governmental role, requiring openness to all. It has not. Again, the ruling in Packingham is that the government cannot pass laws that ban individuals from the internet. It does not say that private companies cannot do so. And anyone arguing otherwise suggests they don’t know what they’re talking about — so of course Hamburger begins his piece citing “the modern public square” line from Packingham.
It jumps from that wrong foot to another wrong foot — using the term “censorious” (meaning: “severely critical of others”) when he actually means “censorial” but even if he was using the right term, this wouldn’t make any more sense:
Nonetheless, censorious gatekeepers circumscribe this square, eliminating and silencing views with which they disagree. As a result, voters receive inadequate information, minority religious and cultural views are suppressed, and vital scientific data and dissenting scientific opinion cannot be disseminated. Not only are nonconforming views scrubbed, but often those who take such perspectives are permanently deplatformed—in effect, depersoned for purposes of effective public speech. The State of Texas has a profound interest in protecting vibrant political, religious, cultural, and scientific debate. HB 20 protects that interest—to which amicus is dedicated.
Of course, this is nonsense on multiple levels, and if someone handed in a law school paper arguing this, they’d fail (I guess, except in Prof. Hamburger’s class). Private companies hosting speech have always had the right to refuse to host certain speech. It’s why the WSJ opinion page publishes blatantly false information written by the likes of Philip Hamburger, but need not publish my article “If You Took Philip Hamburger’s Class At Columbia Law, You Are Probably Dumber For It.” That’s the WSJ’s right to refuse my article, just as it’s Facebook’s right to refuse to host content that violates its rules.
As for the idea that this leads to “inadequate information, minority religious and cultural views [being] suppressed,” well, again, that’s nonsense. People have significantly more access to information today than at literally any point in human history. Hell, for most of history (once voting was allowed) voters had significantly less information than they have access to today, and minority religious and cultural views were basically unavailable at all to most.
At no point in history has the 1st Amendment meant or implied that every publisher MUST publish all views. Yet, Hamburger seems to think it does. This is not just historically, factually, and legally wrong. It’s embarrassing nonsense that raises serious questions about Prof. Hamburger’s ability to understand the first thing about constitutional law, let alone analyze this particular Texas law.
From there, Prof. Hamburger goes deep into fantasy land in his arguments. I have neither the time, nor the desire, to go page by page debunking each and every embarrassing error of history and law in the piece, but let’s just go through the summary of the argument to give you a sense.
First, common carrier regulation of the sort adopted by the statute is entirely consistent with the First Amendment. Under centuries-old precedent that no court has ever questioned, Texas has the power to regulate the social media platforms covered by H.B. 20 (“the Platforms”) as common carriers.
No, first, the idea that no one has ever questioned the rights of a government to unilaterally declare certain services common carriers is laughable. I mean, I’ll just note that during the net neutrality fight in 2015 that anti-neutrality lobbyists pointed to… Philip Hamburger’s book, Is the Administrative State Unlawful as proof that the FCC could not declare broadband a common carrier. Hamburger, of course, would argue that there’s a difference between an administrative agency (i.e., the FCC) and a legislature declaring something a common carrier, but the difference here is somewhat meaningless, given that the FCC’s net neutrality order was done under the basis of Congressional law (the Telecom Act) which granted them that right.
Of course, as we recently noted, you can’t just randomly call something a common carrier. It has to meet certain conditions to be considered one, and social media websites come nowhere close to meeting any of the characteristics of a traditional common carrier. So, yes, what Texas has done here, especially given the impact on 1st Amendment protections, is very much questionable (as the lower court found, and a court in Florida similarly found).
Second, Texas has a compelling interest in protecting the free exchange of expression, and HB 20 is narrowly tailored to that interest. Such an interest, however, is unnecessary to defend HB 20, because the Platforms have little or no speech interest here. They are affected only in their role as common carriers or
conduits for other people’s speech, not their own speech. Moreover, to the extent the Platforms enjoy section 230 immunity for silencing speech on their conduits, see 47 U.S.C. § 230, they are censoring the speech under color of federal law. They have no free speech interest in this federally privatized censorship, and, even if they had such an interest, it would be of no avail against the state’s compelling interest in
protecting free expression.
Hooo boy. Where to start on this one? I think this is the most embarrassingly confused paragraph in the whole thing. Hamburger has to claim that the state has a “compelling interest” here because that’s part of the 1st Amendment’s strict scrutiny test for getting around 1st Amendment concerns (as is “narrowly tailored”) but it confuses just about everything here. Claiming that states have a “compelling interest” in compelling private parties to perpetually host speech they disagree with is utter nonsense.
Indeed, while Hamburger is focused on “compelling” interest, he is ignoring the Supreme Court’s pretty clear prohibition on compelled speech. It’s kind of fatal to his entire argument, and he just… ignores it. The famous line in the Barnette case is: “If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein.”
Bizarrely, Hamburger seems to be claiming that… Section 230 actually is the opposite of what it is, and that it’s the government censoring people. Except it’s literally the exact opposite. Platforms have always had a 1st Amendment right to refuse to host the speech of others. All Section 230 was doing was making it clear that when they did moderate, they didn’t magically take on the legal liability of the stuff they didn’t moderate. That’s not, as Hamburger implies, “censoring the speech under color of federal law” because they always had that right under the 1st Amendment. That’s what’s so embarrassing here. Hamburger has everything completely backwards — just as he did in his WSJ pieces, but rather than recognize his own factual errors, he’s just doubling down.
Further, the idea that websites “have no speech interest” in deciding what speech to host on their own website is just so ridiculously wrong I don’t even know what to say beyond: Columbia Law: do you have a program to check the competence of your professors?
Third, HB 20 does not conflict with 47 U.S.C. § 230(c)(2). That federal section protects platforms from liability, in the sense of damages, for restricting material that falls into specified categories of content. But HB 20 bars only viewpoint discrimination, not content discrimination, and it provides for declaratory
and injunctive relief, not damages. It thus is entirely consistent with section 230.
Lol, wut? First of all, (c)(2) is not limited to “specified categories of content.” It includes the catch-all “otherwise objectionable” to make it clear that it’s designed to enable the websites to be free of liability (which also goes beyond “damages”) for efforts to take down content that they find objectionable (i.e., that violates their rules). But, really, the funny part here is claiming that “viewpoint discrimination” is somehow different than “content discrimination” and that the bar on liability only applies to damages, not injunctive relief. All of that is just… wrong.
I feel sorry for lawyers who get their JD from Columbia.
Filed Under: 1st amendment, compelled speech, content moderation, philip hamburger, section 230, social media, texas
Comments on “‘Preeminent’ Constitutional Legal Scholar Files Embarrassingly Confused Amicus Brief In Favor Of Texas’ Ability To Tell Websites How To Moderate”
That is not how that works. That is not how any of that works
Nonetheless, censorious gatekeepers circumscribe this square, eliminating and silencing views with which they disagree.
Which speech is being ‘disagreed’ with, be specific.
As a result, voters receive inadequate information
Translation: Those big meanies keep taking down Real ‘Muricans who are speaking the truth about how the election was stolen.
minority religious and cultural views are suppressed
Which ‘views’ would those be, and again be specific.
and vital scientific data and dissenting scientific opinion cannot be disseminated.
Ah yes, the ‘dissenting opinion’ that is anti-vax, something that was explicitly made clear as deserving of protection under the texas law keeps being removed, how terrible and not something that would get more people killed were it allowed to stay…
I mean, I’ll just note that during the net neutrality fight in 2015 that anti-neutrality lobbyists pointed to… Philip Hamburger’s book, Is the Administrative State Unlawful as proof that the FCC could not declare broadband a common carrier.
Another dose of hypocrisy thick enough to build a house on. ‘You can’t tell the people who own the road who and how they decide who to let use it but you can absolutely tell the stores along the road they aren’t allowed to have acceptable behavior rules!’
Even setting aside his previous dumpster-fires of op-eds this filing alone should be grounds for any poor sods who were and are students of his to demand a refund, because if he’s willing to sign his name to something this laughably bad it’s clear he has no gorram clue what he’s saying and shouldn’t be considered an expert in anything other than making a fool of himself in public.
Re:
Eh, it’s possible that dousing himself in gasoline, and then lighting himself on fire is his fetish (or the social/intellectual credibility equivalent there of).
/s for those who really need it.
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Re: OF, all of this..
Do, remember there are those OUTSIDE of a conversation from a public view that MAY HAVE control over what is printed/said/stated/debated.
200 countries that debate WHAT they want, CORPS debate what they want, POLITICS, debates what they want..
WHO do you listen to? WHO do you Bitch at? Who wants to EDIT what you said.
Re: Re:
WHATaboutism is not a good argument. We’re specifically talking about US law here.
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Re: Not The Issue
The issue is who. BigTech just like a phone company has ‘devoted its to a use in which the public has an interest’
As such they subject themselves to ‘controlled by the public, for the common good, as long as they maintains the use.’
The authority for common carrier law both state and federal comes from Munn. As long as the public use standard is met the state has every legal right to pass a law that treats social media as a common carrier. But this can only come from a legislative act not an administrative act.
Re: Re:
As much as a shopping mall subjects itself to control by the public for a common good, so long as it serves the public.
Answer this, why do you insist that you have the right to force your words into forums that do not want your presence?
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Re: Re: Re: That Would Be Why
That would be why the SCOTUS upheld California’s decision to regulate shopping malls in PruneYard Shopping Center v. Robins (1980).
As to why I would they devoted their property to the public interest and as such knowingly subjected themselves to regulation by the public in so far as that interest is concerned. I’m not a Libertarian.
Re: Re: Re:2
The courts have trimmed Pruneyard after SCOTUS’s ruling so its application is minimized at best. It has no bearing now, and had no bearing when SCOTUS decided it, on social media websites.
Plenty of brick’n’mortar stores devote their property to the public interest. They can still give the boot to people who yell racial slurs and such. For what reason should any and every social media service, regardless of size, be barred from doing the same?
Re: Re: Re:3
Pruneyard specifically mentions that for some activities a mall can be considered a public space with what all that entails, but people still have to conduct themselves in such a manner that they don’t disrupt normal business and the mall’s rules – ie if you behave like an asshole you will promptly be escorted from the premises.
Re: Re: Re:2 Prune Yard, Mis-Read
You may have mis-read that case. The Supreme Court actually said that the state’s regulation was not a compensable taking because allowing First Amendment activity there did not impair the use or value of the property. Pruneyard, 447 U.S. at 83.
(preview still borken)
Re: Re: Re:2
Back here in the real world, the actual supreme court precedent that applies is Manhattan v Halleck.
But deliberate liars like Chozen don’t want you to know that.
Re: Re: Re:3
Technically, Halleck doesn’t directly apply to social media services—but it absolutely could.
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Re: Re: Re:3 Not The Droids
These are not the droids you are looking for. Halleck doesn’t say what you think it says. Halleck says that they are not state actors therefore there is no First Amendment claim against them can be made. However, it doesn’t void Pruneyard, TBC v. FCC, FAIR v. Rumsfeld, that all say yes the government can by statute force you to host speech and its not a First Amendment violation.
Re: Re: Re:4
And those cases have zero relevance to interactive internet services like social media.
Pruneyard is about malls (or the equivalent functional space accessible by the public), TBC v FCC is about must carry channels for broadcast/cable and Rumsfeld v FAIR is about federal funding and military recruiters access to universities/college. None of which has any bearing on websites.
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Re: Re: Re:5 Its What Ever the Law Says
Pruneyard isn’t about shopping malls its about the governments authority to force by statute private property to carry speech. Halleck was basically the SCOTUS telling the states and federal government to fix tis problem by statute.
Re: Re: Re:6
It is, though. Pruneyard only applies to areas of shopping centers…
…that are analogous to public spaces (e.g., food courts). Pruneyard lets people carry out anti-masking protests in a food court, but not directly in front of a store or in a mall’s walkways.
No, it wasn’t. Halleck was…you know what, fuck it, COPYPASTA TIME!
A Supreme Court ruling from 2019, for which Justice Brett Kavanaugh wrote the majority opinion, doesn’t directly address social media but still provides the logic necessary to counter any “yes they are public fora” argument:
(Before you go accusing anyone of not having read a certain ruling, maybe you should read the ruling to make sure it says what you want us to believe it says instead of what it actually says.)
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Re: Re: Re:7 I've Read it Multiple Times
I’ve read it multiple times. In no way does Halleck state that the state couldn’t require MNN to carry Halleck or others programing. In citing Hudgens v. NLRB the court is opening the door for statutory control because Hudgens v. NLRB 1976 was further clarified by Pruneyard Shopping Center v. Robins 1980 a mere 4 years later.
All Halleck says is that MNN wasn’t a state actor which means Halleck couldn’t sue for a 1st Amendment violation. However, Halleck did not say and left the door open for statute to require industries to host speech.
To sum
Hudgens v. NLRB 1976 – Shopping Malls are not state actors and cannot be sued for refusing to host speech.
Pruneyard Shopping Center v. Robins 1980 – Shopping malls are in the public interest and can be forced by statute to host speech should the state so decide.
This is the separation you are not getting because you are stupid. These three rulings do not contradict each other.
The problem is the Mikes Misfits ready everything into Halleck because Mikes Misfits are Morons.
Re: Re: Re:8
Explain how if the shopping center cannot be sued for refusing to host speech, it can be completed to host speech. Can’t be sued and compelled are contradictory to each other.
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Re: Re: Re:9 Simple if Not Stupid
Its really simple if you aren’t stupid.
To sue for violation of your Fist Amendment rights is a Constitutional claim the party being sued has to be the government or an agent of the government.
To sue for violation of statue is just a tort. All the state has to do is create a law that says to an industry “in the public interest you cant do x, y, or z. If you do x, y, or z the aggrieved party has an actionable tort.”
The problem is Mikes Misfits are stupid their intelligence reflects the intelligence of their leader. Mike has tried to argue that Halleck covers absolutely every single thing that has ever or will ever be an issue in social media, even though the specifics of the case does not involve social media but instead involved local public access television.
However, I’m not Mike. I’m not a hypocritical deceitful idiot. I’m not going to argue that a decision that may work in social medias favor is immaterial because the specifics of that decision are not related to social media. This is what Mike does because Mike is an idiot. When a decision like say Munn, or Pruneyard is contrary to Mikes preferred narrative he pretends like the decision is irrelevant because the specific context of those cases are not social media cases. Mikes Misfits buy this because they are also idiots.
Yes Halleck does come into play when someone wants to argue that social media is a “state actor” when opens them to First Amendment claims. However, it is completely and totally irrelevant when discussion issues like state regulation of social media or social media terms of service contracts.
Re: Re: Re:10
[citation needed]
The logic of Halleck could be applied to social media services. That you can’t understand that is your problem.
[citation needed]
Yeah, you’re going to argue that decisions having nothing to do with social media—decisions you’ve misread and misinterpreted to make them relevant to social media—do, in fact, apply to social media.
Neither Munn nor Pruneyard say what you want them to say, even (and especially) about social media.
Depends on the regulation. If you mean regulation in the sense of antitrust legislation, sure. If you mean regulation in the sense of what speech a social media service can, will, and/or must host…not so much.
Re: Re: Re:10
Even when the 1st amendment says that the government cannot pass laws regulating speech?
Re: Re: Re:8
No, it didn’t. The government generally cannot compel a private entity to host speech it would normally refuse to host. Halleck did nothing to change that fact.
But sure, tell me again how the Biden administration can make Twitter host Klan propaganda without violating the First Amendment. I can’t wait to see you make that argument. 🍿
Re: Re: Re:6
This is your reasoning in a nutshell:
Chozen: You can’t use a knife on people, that’s assault with a deadly weapon according to the law!
Doctor: Can someone get this stupid fucker out of my operating room, I’m trying to operate here!
You have no idea what context is as evidenced by your insistence of misinterpreting case-law and trying to apply the decisions on interactive internet services, mostly by ignoring everything in the case-text except the part you think is relevant.
I rather believe what the case-law actually says than the words of some self-professed genius on the internet who brags about his degrees and physical prowess.
Re: Re: Re:4
Those cases all assert that the defendants are effectively state actors.
Re: Re: Re:5
Sorry. I was off. I’ll try to redeem myself.
PruneYard has been limited by subsequent rulings (such as Golden Gateway in 2001) to just that one part of basically that one mall. It simply doesn’t apply to websites at all, as has been pointed out to you repeatedly.
TBC v FCC was about what regulations of what appears on broadcasts using public airwaves, which is a very scarce resource. The internet has no such unbreakable bounds on how much can be sent or received on it, and as the case that declared most of the CDA (excluding §230, of course) unconstitutional made clear, this distinction means that that reasoning doesn’t apply to websites.
Rumsfeld v FAIR is only about the government’s authority to withhold government grants/funding to universities if the university doesn’t allow military recruiters access to it. What you are claiming is not about withholding government funding for anything, forcing access to universities, or to military recruiters. You’re talking about government regulations that either fine or allow for legal liability of privately-owned websites that don’t permanently host private people or speech that the website doesn’t want to be associated with. These are completely different things.
For these reasons, all three of those cases are completely inapposite. They don’t stand for the general principle that
Indeed, these are only about narrow exceptions to the general principle that the government cannot do so, and those exceptions don’t apply to privately-owned websites.
Re: Re: Re:2
Where is the law that says you can force a mall to carry the exact products that you want? That is equivalent to what you want to force social media to do.
Besides which many people are aware that if you get your way, minorities, LGBT people etc will be driven off the Internet by you and your mates constantly attacking them. In reality you are not after freedom of speech, but the right to censor people by bullying them an any forum they try to use.
Re: Re: How many degrees does it take to change a lightbulb
Have you figured out the difference between a public house and a publicly traded company yet?
Re: Re:
Nice hatchet job on quoting Chief Justice Waite who was paraphrasing De Portibus Maris and the regulation of virtual monopolies.
You have a penchant for taking case-law out of context thinking it applies to anything you don’t like.
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Re: Re: Re: How So?
How is it out of context?
Re: Re: Re:2
Because the case you where quoting from is about a virtual monopoly where farmers had no real choice and you think it applies to internet services which there are hundreds if not thousands of and people are free to choose whichever service they want.
Makes you question who paid for this Hamburger opinion piece.
Re:
What’s your beef with it?
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Otherwise Objectionable Fig Leaf
Section 230 proponents have been dissatisfied with only the 1st Amendment as a defense, ever since the Stratton Oakmont court decision. Perhaps the first amendment gives operators the right to moderate, but it’s section 230 that gives them the ability to moderate with near impunity. More and more, lawmakers see the danger of allowing social media companies to act as a publisher in practice, but then claim to be a mere platform in court.
-Getting censored proves that your opinion is the strongest.
Re:
-Repeatedly lying about being ‘censored’ because people keep showing you the door of their private property proves that you’re not just a person no-one wants to be around but a dishonest one who refuses to own their own words and deeds and instead blames others.
Re:
Says somebody who, deep down, knows they’re so wrong, they’ll be buried as a troll, but still wants to claim the moral high ground.
Re:
Bravely bold Sir Koby
Rode forth from the Internet.
He was not afraid to die,
Oh brave Sir Robin.
He was not at all afraid
To be killed in nasty ways.
Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Koby.
He was not in the least bit scared
To be mashed into a pulp.
Or to have his eyes gouged out,
And his elbows broken.
To have his kneecaps split
And his body burned away,
And his limbs all hacked and mangled
Brave Sir Koby.
His head smashed in
And his heart cut out
And his liver removed
And his bowls unplugged
And his nostrils raped
And his bottom burnt off
Re:
Getting censored proves that your opinion is the strongest.
if Twitter censors Al-Qaeda, does that make Al-Qaeda’s opinions right?
Re: Re:
Them and other terrorists, anti-vaxxers, flat earthers, bigots of all stripes from sexists to racists, holocaust deniers and those that think that the only problem with WW2 is that the wrong side won… it’s amazing how many people and groups Koby is willing to show their support of with one little tagline, all the more so because this has been pointed out before which means they’re showing that support deliberately.
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Re: Re: Otherwise Objectionable Fig Leaf
No, death threats are not protected, nor are they political opinion.
Re: Re: Re:
The only thing Al-Qaeda / supporters say publicly are death threats? Wow thanks for that info.
Re: Re: Re:
By that standard, neither are the majority of the posting that are being removed.
Re: Re: Re:
Let’s say Al-Qaeda only posts political opinions instead of death threats, but Twitter bans them anyway. Would Al-Qaeda’s opinions be the strongest—and thus the most correct—given that, nder your specific belief system, they’ve been censored?
Re:
More and more, lawmakers see the danger of allowing social media companies to act as a publisher in practice, but then claim to be a mere platform in court.
Just remember social media also includes all the wannabe conservative safe spaces you’ve created so that your ‘values’ can flourish. What happens when I spam you idiots on your own platforms, and there’s nothing you can do about it? Will the plan be to continue playing a victim (of essentially your own doing) or will the narrative change to ‘Democrats killed section 230 because they want to control our speech?’
Re:
FTFY
Re:
Getting censored proves that your opinion is the strongest.
Oh ho ho, Koby. I’m glad you dusted off this silly point. You had dropped it around the time that you started defending Trump/Devin Nunes for saying that Truth Social would ban users and take down posts like it was going out of style.
I thought maybe you weren’t just stupid, but that you might have realized that your dumb statements reflected poorly on you. Guess not! Good to know that you are willing to change your opinion on content moderation based on whether or not you support the moderation or not.
In other words, Koby, you’re a hypocrite and we all know it, but you’ve now emphasized that point for everyone here.
Re:
Wow, Koby is still here.
I guessed you would have to quit your troll job as the Russian Ruble has tanked in the last couple of weeks.
Re:
Not that you’re going to answer, Koby, but what law or court case does the “publisher/platform” distinction come from?
I was unaware that McDonalds U had a lawschool.
I keep mentioning the horrific state of mental health care in ‘Merica, how many more examples like this do we need to consider what even smart people can crack and lose their damn minds & we can’t just remember they did something cool once when they were sane.
So if someone is banned for using the N word, is it content or viewpoint discrimination? In practice the distinction is impossible to make, as people cannot agree on the definition of pornography.
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Origional Links
Mike you would please like to the original source material and not other previous techdirt threads. I take your legal opinion with the same degree of misgiving as I would a drink from Bill Cosby.
You are not a disinterested party here. If section 230 goes bye bye then as a consultant you face civil and criminal charges under California’s Unruh Act. Political discriminations is illegal in the state of California. You only avoid criminal and civil penalty because you enjoy federal immunity.
Re:
That discrimination, last I recall, is limited to specific situations—none of which are “moderation of social media”. And even if that law said otherwise, it would be unconstitutional under the First Amendment: The government can’t force someone to host third-party speech they don’t want to host, political or otherwise.
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Re: Re: Nope
Unruh Act is 72 years old and has survived numerous legal challenges so you are engaging in wishful thinking.
Re: Re: Re:
Age, ancestry, color, disability, national origin, race, religion, sex and sexual orientation.
Which of those apply in your claim?
Re: Re: Re:
That doesn’t cover political affiliation.
Re:
The linked Techdirt Article links to the original postings, and is relevant here. Just follow the links.
Re:
Political discriminations
Which ‘political’ positions are being discriminated against, and be specific.
Re:
You are not a disinterested party here. If section 230 goes bye bye then as a consultant you face civil and criminal charges under California’s Unruh Act. Political discriminations is illegal in the state of California. You only avoid criminal and civil penalty because you enjoy federal immunity.
Lol, wut? I face civil and criminal penalties FOR WHAT exactly?
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Re: Re: Unruh Act
Conspiracy to Violate Civil Rights
In your day job when you advise any company to engage in political discrimination you are breaking California civil rights code. In the State of California the only reason you can legally do what you do as an advisor is because you enjoy a federal immunity under section 230 that Trumps the Unruh Act, Federal Law > State Law.
This is being litigated right now with Candice Owens and AirBnB. AirBnB decided to deny service to Ms. Owens. She sued under the Unruh act the AirBnB claimed section 230 immunity, courts just said a few weeks ago ‘No AirBnB does not have section 230 immunity’ now the case is moving forward and AirBnB has to defend itself from an Unruh Act civil claim.
Now the interesting question for people like you is, If section 230 goes away is it from then on or is it retroactive?
Traditionally when immunity is revoked prosecution and civil actions for legal violations that occurred before the immunity was revoked is not considered ex-post facto prosecution. A diplomat who abuses a woman and has his immunity revoked cant scream “I cant be prosecuted because when I committed the crime I had immunity.”
Its an interesting legal question. You would probably skate. I’m sure as section 230 is chipped away there will be provisions that state ‘from here forward’ because so many people who work in BigTech would be subject to civil and criminal penalties.
You need to read up on the Unruh act because my side has. Section 230 is dying. Once its dead enough the Unruh Act will be the club my side uses to beat people like you over the head.
Re: Re: Re:
Once its dead enough the Unruh Act will be the club my side uses to beat people like you over the head.
That’s laughable. You essentially will need to prove that being an asshole is a protected class, or should be considered a disability.
So are you people ‘special’ or disabled?
Re: Re: Re:
In your day job when you advise any company to engage in political discrimination you are breaking California civil rights code.
My day job is what now? I have never, in my life, “advised” any company to “engage in political discrimination.” And, even if I had, advising a company is speech. Which is protected under the 1st Amendment. Acts of discrimination are separate from speech. I mean, dude, this isn’t difficult for even a total idiot.
But, again, my day job does not involve advising companies to discriminate and I don’t know where you got that from.
Now the interesting question for people like you is, If section 230 goes away is it from then on or is it retroactive?
Lol, wut? My god you are stupider than I thought. Even assuming all your other incorrect statements were accurate, even if I was advising companies on how to discriminate (which again, I have never, and would never, do), what the fuck does that have to do with Section 230? I’m responsible for my own speech. Section 230 protects websites from being sued over someone else’s speech. You’re making even less sense than normal.
I mean, holy shit dude. You have lots of bad legal takes, but this is by far the dumbest.
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Re: Re: Re:2 No Its Conspiracy
“advising a company is speech”
When that advice violates local, state, or federal law its actually called conspiracy.
When you advise company X to censor based on political belief that action you are advising them to take is a violation of the Unruh act. Advising someone to break the law is conspiracy.
Re: Re: Re:3
When that advice violates local, state, or federal law its actually called conspiracy.
OMG. I thought it couldn’t get any dumber. So, Chozen, tell me please, what are the elements of a conspiracy. And then explain to me how I have violated them.
When you advise company X to censor based on political belief that action you are advising them to take is a violation of the Unruh act. Advising someone to break the law is conspiracy.
Once again, as already explained to you, I have never advised any such thing, nor would I. Second, as asked above, please explain the elements of conspiracy and how I violate them. Third, learn how the 1st Amendment works. This is a new level of wrongness.
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Re: Re: Re:4 You Need to Learn
You need to learn how the First Amendment and the entire constitution works.
This is 2022 there are oodles and oodles of case law on rights, restriction of rights, public, private, quasi public.
I’m telling you how it works and citing the critical case law. You are choosing to ignore it and just scream FIRST AMENDMENT! You are a god damn Manchild.
Re: Re: Re:5
You need to tell us how the Unruh Act applies to social media, given that it says nothing about protecting civil rights on the basis of political affiliation.
Re: Re: Re:5
You need to learn how the First Amendment and the entire constitution works.
Oh, do I? How interesting.
I’m telling you how it works and citing the critical case law. You are choosing to ignore it and just scream FIRST AMENDMENT! You are a god damn Manchild.
Every accusation a confession, Chozen. The caselaw supports me on this, not you. Multiple idiot trolls have tried Unruh claims against social media moderation and they have all failed. The 9th Circuit easily rejected such a claim in the PragerU case, citing the Supreme Court’s Halleck decision and noting that it was an easy call that the 1st Amendment barred the lawsuit. They didn’t even have to get to the 230 issue since it was so blatantly obvious that the 1st Amendment barred the claim, just like I noted.
Here:
PragerU runs headfirst into two insurmountable
barriers—the First Amendment and Supreme Court
precedent. Just last year, the Court held that “merely hosting speech by others is not a traditional, exclusive public function and does not alone transform private entities into state actors subject to First Amendment constraints.” Manhattan Cmty. Access Corp. v. Halleck, 139 S.Ct. 1921, 1930 (2019). The Internet does not alter this state action requirement of the First Amendment. We affirm the district court’s dismissal of PragerU’s complaint.
The Russian troll factory FAN also used an Unruh claim that was rejected.
You’re just out here being so incredibly wrong, it’s not even funny. It’s just kinda pathetic.
Re: Re: Re:6
I hear that’s the tagline for his autobiography.
Re: Re: Re:4
I’m still waiting on the elements of conspiracy buddy. Or did you look them up and realize that it shows you don’t know wtf you’re talking about?
Re: Re: Re:3
When you advise company X to censor based on political belief
Which ‘political belief’ are you claiming Mike has ‘advised’ companies to discriminate against, and be specific in not just the specific belief but the link to the article where you claim he did so.
Re: Re: Re:
Please tell me, what the hell does §230 have to do with Mike’s posts on this site?
Do you realize that if Mike posts an article here at Techdirt, and was threatened with a lawsuit specifically over one of his articles, that section 230 has nothing to do with it?
For somebody that pretends to have all these advanced degrees, you seem to have no idea of what you are actually talking about.
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Re: Re: Re:2
Im referring to his work as a consultant.
Re: Re: Re:3
Which also has nothing to do with §230.
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Re: Re: Re:4 Yes it Does
When and if Mike advises his clients to do something illegal under state or local law Mike doesn’t have to worry about a civil or criminal case being brought against him because Mike is covered by federal immunity through section 230. Without section 230 Mike would have to be warry about the law where ever his clients do business.
This is going on right now with both Candice Owens vs. AirBnB and the multiple criminals investigations of GoFundMe in their attempt to keep the trucker money. In the Owens case the court denied AirBnB’s attempt to claim section 230 and the civil case moves forward. In the case of GoFundMe I see it as an industry that is so used to having this immunity that they flat out committed multiple acts of fraud without even thinking. Every person involved in these decisions, including the consultants, are in serious trouble.
Re: Re: Re:5
have you lost your fucking mind
Re: Re: Re:5
When and if Mike advises his clients to do something illegal under state or local law Mike doesn’t have to worry about a civil or criminal case being brought against him because Mike is covered by federal immunity through section 230. Without section 230 Mike would have to be warry about the law where ever his clients do business.
Have you ever considered not being a complete fucking moron? None of this makes any sense, nor is any of it even in the same vicinity as reality.
Re: Re: Re:5
No, he isn’t. §230 only applies to content authored and provided by third parties and to moderation of such content. If Mike was doing as you alleged, the issue would be speech authored by Mike himself, and §230 does not immunize that. As such, any consultation Mike does would have nothing to do with §230.
Re:
How to be an asshole in one simple sentence: equate someone making an argument in favor of Section 230 to rape.
Seriously, what the hell made you think that was a good comparison?
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Re: Re: Thank You
I am a proud asshole. Its the motto of my generation.
Re: Re: Re:
That’s why you people get kicked off social media. It’s nothing to be proud of – the rest of us loathe you assholes.
Re: Re: Re:2
‘Of course I take dumps in people’s livingrooms, I’m proud of doing so! What do you mean no-one wants me in their house anymore, that’s unfair discrimination!’
Re:
Those previous threads contain links to the source material you seek.
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Re: Re:
Like I said the original source is paywalled and Mike didn’t make direct quotes. I trust Mike about as much as I trust gas station sushi.
Re: Re: Re:
If the original source is paywalled, linking to that source in this article wouldn’t help, anyways. And it’s hardly Mike’s fault that the original sources are paywalled. He’s discussing what’s written in articles and linking to said articles is the only way to cite them.
He also sites to court cases that support his opinions, and there he links to the court cases themselves or even embeds them, and those aren’t paywalled.
Finally, yes, he absolutely does use direct quotes.
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Circular Argument
“Claiming that states have a “compelling interest” in compelling private parties to perpetually host speech they disagree with is utter nonsense.
Indeed, while Hamburger is focused on “compelling” interest, he is ignoring the Supreme Court’s pretty clear prohibition on compelled speech.”
So because First Amendment the state has to show a “compelling public interest” but because First Amendment “compelling public interest” doesn’t matters? And you say Dr. Hamburger beclowns himself.
We an go right back to the most significant decision of the 19th century. Munn v. Illinois, (1877). If the sate can show a compelling public interest they can in fact regulate the free speech of a private company that has put their private property to the public interest.
” When the owner of property devotes it to a use in which the public has an interest, he in effect grants to the public an interest in such use, and must, to the extent of that interest, submit to be controlled by the public, for the common good, as long as he maintains the use. He may withdraw his grant by discontinuing the use.”
That is the importance of “public interest” it is the law of the land like it or not.
Re:
You have no contract with Twitter. They aren’t offering a venue for rent.
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Re: Re: Not The Issue
Every person that uses Twitter has a TOS which thanks to Mike’s own work is a legal contract. That just added an entire other level of “compelling public interest” for the states to regulate big tech. The state has a compelling public interest to require TOS follow a basic legal framework so as not to burden state courts with breach of contract cases.
Manchild Mike wants his cake and to eat it to TOS as legally enforceable contracts but not to be treated to the same legal requirements of contracts in other industries.
All of the upside of a contract with non of the downsides. Of course the people have to pay for all the non party born litigation caused caused by this.
Re: Re: Re:
Every person that uses Twitter has a TOS which thanks to Mike’s own work is a legal contract.
Your ‘argument’ is unclear, as it’s both a legally enforceable contract, that you contend is unenforceable because of the TOS when you started blabbering on the other thread.
Why don’t you ask someone to make up your fucking mind?
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Re: Re: Re:2 Nuance
You miss the nuance. Under the law a legal TOS is not a legal contract. However, most TOS are written so ambiguous that they are not legal contracts as written but if written to the basic standards of a contract would be legally enforceable contracts.
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Re: Re: Re:3 Type
I mean to write now*
Re: Re: Re:3
Then contract law doesn’t matter here—and neither does your argument.
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Re: Re: Re:4 Its All About Contract Law
These laws are contract law. The states are setting legal requirements for social media TOS contracts.
Re: Re: Re:5
Can someone—anyone—get a dumbass translator in here? I keep trying to parse these sentences, but they never seem to make sense.
Re: Re: Re:6
One sec, lemme slam my head into the wall a few times to get in the right mindset…
Ow.
That out of the way they seem to be trying to argue that while TOS’ aren’t ‘legal contracts’ currently states should step in and force online platform TOS’ to be treated as legal contracts, apparently ignoring that even if they were ‘if you violate our rules we have the right to kick you out’ would still be entirely valid even as ‘You must host speech you don’t want to’ would not be.
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Re: Re: Re:7 They Are Contracts
A contract that is recognized as a legal contract only becomes illegal after it is adjudicated by the court. The law assumes a contract is written to the basic legal standard of contract law. Currently TOS are written so ambiguously that they are illegal. But each of these has to be adjudicated on a case by case basis is state courts. Mike even has a thread arguing that TOS need to be ambiguous and vague because of “bad faith.” This creates a burden on the states which have to adjudicate these illegal contracts.
Re: Re: Re:8
Arseholes who refuse to recognize that they are arseholes despite being warned, and thrown out of places, are the ones creating a burden on the courts.
Re: Re: Re:8
That you don’t like TOS ‘contracts’ does not make them invalid or illegal. Even assuming that they were treated as ‘legal contracts’ a state stepping in to say that platforms are not allowed to have acceptable content/behaviour policies and must carry third-party content they don’t want to would not be ‘contract law’ that would be a blatant first amendment violation no less than a law telling the local newspaper that they are required to print op-eds that they don’t want to.
Or in tl;dr format: Even if you were right, you’d still be wrong.
This creates a burden on the states which have to adjudicate these illegal contracts.
No, the only burden comes from assholes who think that they have a ‘right’ to use private property to speak from against the owner’s wishes and go to court to defend that fictional ‘right’. If they actually respected the real first amendment rather than the fictional one they cling to there wouldn’t be a problem at all.
Re: Re: Re:3
but if written
But it isn’t written that way. I’m still not understanding your argument. You seem to be relying on a non-existent hypothetical. This isn’t nuance – it’s pretending that reality is something different.
Re: Re: Re: What a little bitch does
“Manchild Mike”
That’s really all you got bro. Childlike arguments, followed by childlike insults, followed by childlike threats.
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Re: Re: Re:2
Mike Manchild makes nothing but childlike arguments. Its his stock in trade. He is running around reading a brief he doesn’t even understand, Mike is a bit of a legal idiot, saying that an eminent professor of law is embarrassing himself.
Re: Re: Re:3 Still a little bitch
Keep flailing son, watching you embarrass yourself is great entertainment. You gonna try to beat me up next?
Re: Re: Re:4
I’m still not completely convinced that Chozen isn’t a backup account for John Smith, mind you.
Re: Re: Re:5
We could ask him what he thinks about revenge porn. That one always triggered Jhon boi.
Re: Re: Re:3
“a bit”?
Re: Re: Re:3
Thank you for proving their point.
Re: Re: Re:3
[Projects facts contrary to all evidence]
Re:
You’re going to be really pissed when you read Wabash v. Illinois.
With Wabash, the Court overturned its 1879 decision (Munn v. Illinois) allowing states to regulate railroads. Perverting the original intent of the Fourteenth Amendment, the Court decreed that corporations were legally “persons” entitled to the Amendment’s protections.
So it’s not the law of the land, pal. You’re mistaken, which really isn’t surprising at this point.
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Re: Re: Wrong
Wabash didn’t “overturn” Munn v. Illinois it overturned the state law that Munn v. Illinois upheld. Read the decision you genius.
Many bad internet sites idiots go to misinterpret Wabash overturning the law as overturning Munn. In the time between Munn and Wabash congress passed the
“(4) The cases of Munn v. Illinois, 94 U. S. 113; Chicago v. Burlington & Quincy Railroad Co. v. Iowa, 94 U. S. 155, and Peik v. Chicago & Northwestern Railway, 94 U. S. 164, examined in regard to this question, and held, in view of other cases decided near the same time, not to establish a contrary doctrine.
(5) Notwithstanding what is there said, this Court holds now, and has never consciously held otherwise, that a statute of a state, intended to regulate or to tax or to impose any other restriction upon the transmission of persons or property or telegraphic messages from one state to another, is not within that class of legislation which the states may enact in the absence of legislation by Congress, and that such statutes are void even as to that part of such transmission which may be within the state.
(6) It follows that the statute of Illinois, as construed by the supreme court of the state and as applied to the transaction under consideration, is forbidden by the Constitution of the United States, and the judgment of that court is reversed.
The case is stated in the opinion of the Court.”
I know you cant understand that but what it means is the specific law in question was found in Wabash to violate federal authority. Munn established the power to regulate the private in the public interest. Wabash clarified the separation of that power between state and federal.
The court never overturned Munn and the Munn standard has been the landmark for almost all federal and state regulation passed in the last century and a half. All Wabash said is the states cannot infringe on federal authority when it comes to regulation.
But hey you cant stop idiots from misinterpreting legal decisions on the internet. Mike would lose half his threads.
Re: Re: Re:
“But hey you cant stop idiots from misinterpreting legal decisions on the internet.”
Don’t be so hard on yourself. That’s our job.
Re: Re: Re:
All Wabash said is the states cannot infringe on federal authority when it comes to regulation.
Do you even read what you copypasta’d?
If ‘all Wabash did’ was clarify that states cannot infringe on federal authority, then you should forward it to all your pals who seem to think that Texas trying to override section 230 is following the law of the land.
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Re: Re: Re:2 Carefully Crafted
These laws are carefully crafted to issues the state has a compelling public interest in specifically state elections, and Terms of Service contracts which are enforced in state court not federal court. You would have a hard time convincing the present Supreme Court that the states are over stepping their authority.
Re: Re: Re:3
Citation needed, and specifically of a law that says the states can force any company or person to carry their political speech. Mot nutritional blabbing and safety notices are not political speech.
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Re: Re: Re:4
PruneYard Shopping Center v. Robins (1980)
FCC requiring leased access. We’ve debated his before. Under Munn absolutely when your private property is put towards public interest the public has the right to control to the extent of the public interest.
Mike is the worst kind of hypocrite because he doesn’t believe this kind of regulation should not exist, it just shouldn’t affect him. We see the same thing with thread after thread on the evil of qualified immunity when section 230 is a qualified immunity.
Re: Re: Re:5
As numerous people have told you, Pruneyard doesn’t apply to social media services. It barely even applies to the actual Pruneyard Shopping Center these days. Come up with a different (and more on-point) citation that proves the government has a right to compel an interactive Web service into hosting third-party speech.
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Re: Re: Re:6 Section 230
Social Media escapes PruneYard because of section 230 immunity. Federal immunity trumps state law. If there were no section 230 social media would absolutely be subject to PruneYard.
Re: Re: Re:7 You really wanna go down that road, huh?
Please note that court decisions after SCOTUS decided Pruneyard have narrowed the applicability of that decision to the eponymous shopping center (and others like it), such that it only applies to a small part of a shopping center, and that no court at any level has ever ruled that Pruneyard should apply to anything other than physical shopping centers.
Please also note that the right of a social media service to moderate content—to choose what content it will or will not host—is an act currently protected by the First Amendment, which means it cannot be overruled by the Constitution of California, per the logic of SCOTUS in re: the Pruneyard decision.
Now, please explain—in detail—how Pruneyard would absolutely apply to every social media service based in the United States right now if Section 230 were to stop being law right now.
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Re: Re: Re:8 Just Read Hinkle's Decision
Since Mike thinks that Judge Hinkle’s decision on the Florida Social Media law is the bestest thing ever lets just read that decision.
“FAIR and PruneYard establish that compelling a person to allow a visitor access to the person’s property, for the purpose of speaking, is not a First Amendment violation, so long as the person is not compelled to speak, the person is not restricted from speaking, and the message of the visitor is not likely to be attributed to the person.”
Of course we know Mike didn’t actually read the decision. Mike reads other news organizations opinion pieces on legal decisions then rewrites them as his own. Mike never actually read the decision. So none of Mike’s Misfits read this part of the judges decision.
Re: Re: Re:9 Thanks for proving your dumbassery.
This logic is bullshit. The government shouldn’t allow anyone to simply walk on private property and use said property as their own platform. And social media services are private property, no matter what you might want to believe.
Also, later court rulings have narrowed the applicability of Pruneyard to areas of shopping centers that are analogous to public gathering areas (e.g., plazas, atriums, and food courts). And every attempt to use Pruneyard as a means of limiting social media moderation, both before and after those narrowing decisions, has failed.
Also also, I bet you thought I wouldn’t Google that passage from Hinkle’s ruling in Netchoice LLC v. Moody and read what follows…
…which says those precedents don’t apply—and as I’ve noted, that has happened in every other attempt to do that exact same thing.
The government lacks, and should always lack, the right to force Twitter and Facebook into carrying all legally protected speech. You have yet to present one good argument that says otherwise. And the same ruling you say makes your case for you does so only if you trim it to a small part and interpret it from a certain point of view.
Do you want me to keep embarassing you, dude? Because I can keep going if you’d like.
Re: Re: Re:10
After a while the low-hanging fruit gets tiresome…
Re: Re: Re:9
Of course we know Mike didn’t actually read the decision. Mike reads other news organizations opinion pieces on legal decisions then rewrites them as his own.
Just to be clear: this is absolutely and totally false. Anyone who actually follows my work knows this is false. This is why I always post the full decisions and quote directly from them, rather than from news coverage. Indeed, I try NOT to read any of the news coverage, but rely directly on the primary documents.
I don’t know why you choose to so blatantly lie on something that’s so easy to check, but, it just shows how you have no compunction about making shit up to suit your position.
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Re: Re: Re:10 Linking is Not Reading
I know you link to them but I don’t believe you read them. You have fumbled the ball too many times in too many threads. Your “opinions” are too similar to whatever major leftwing news “opinion” is on the decision and you are simply unaware of major parts of the decision you would know if you had read the damn thing.
Re: Re: Re:11
Gee, it’s almost as if people who read the same court ruling come to the same opinion when they base said opinion in fact. Imagine that~.
Like the part you missed about Pruneyard not applying to social media, which came directly after the part you quoted? You mean like that?
Every accusation, a confession…
Re: Re: Re:11
You do… you do realize that everyone here can see what I actually write and compare it to whatever bullshit you pretend I say, don’t you? Because you act as if they can’t, and it’s fucking weird, dude.
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Re: Re: Re:12
You have run off everyone who disagrees with you because you are a TDS deranged fascist. Like most “L” Libertarians you run your life as an evil autocrat. “L”ibertarianism is just an excuse to avoid moral accountability. Phycologists call it guilt avoidance.
Re: Re: Re:13
You didn’t answer his question.
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Re: Re: Re:14 You Are Not the Center of the Univers
I wasn’t responding to you. I know your narcistic personality disorder makes you think everything that happens in someway has to relate to you but that isn’t how the world works no matter how much you deluded mind may think it does.
Re: Re: Re:15
[Projects facts not in evidence]
Re: Re: Re:15
That still didn’t answer Mike’s question, and you were addressing him.
Re: Re: Re:13
[Hallucinates facts not in evidence]
Re:
You are aware of the situation that led to Munn vs Illinois, right? There was a virtual monopoly on grain-silos and the owners of the silos charged the farmers an unreasonable amount of money to store grain. That was found to be against the common good and the public interest – hence it needed regulation, which also is how most other natural monopoly’s are regulated. If you had bothered to look a bit further in the case-text this little gem shows up: It is enough that there exists in the place and for the commodity in question a virtual monopoly of the warehousing for this purpose, on which the principle of law attaches.
Now, you are free to point out which social media service is a virtual monopoly where the public lacks a choice and are forced to use that particular service if they want their daily dose of social interaction on the internet. If you can’t, well that just proves that you are wrong – again.
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Re: Re: DIcta
Very nice citing dicta but that is not the most important text of the decision is it?
What I posted is the Munn standard. Its the text you read when you search on Munn and regulation. You posted dicta. If you feel the courts in the last 150 years haven’t paid enough attention to this dicta in all the cases that have come up over Munn you are welcome to sue.
Re: Re: Re:
Please name the social media service that has a virtual monopoly on social media services, such that the public has no practical choice but to use that service.
And remember: Twitter and Facebook are two different services.
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Re: Re: Re:2 Read
First the “virtual monopoly” is dicta the judge is referencing some legal scholarly work. It’s not relevant to the Munn standard.
Second, please read up on the market share of Bell Telephone and Standard Oil when they were broken up for being monopolies then compare that to Facebook and Google’s market share.
Re: Re: Re:3 Here's the difference, though…
Bell carries speech over wires. Facebook and Google host speech. Google may have a monopoly over the ad market, but that was due to the GDPR, which was meant to rein them in but ended up boosting their market share because they were the only ones who could afford the liability.
As for Facebook’s and Google’s market share:
You can use TikTok, Snapchat, Twitter, or any one of the right-wing social networks such as Gab, Parler, or Truth Social. Some monopoly Facebook has. 🙄 Google services can be uninstalled from android phones. You could use Duck-Duck-Go. Video is embedded into the HTML5 standard so if you know how to program, you could upload your own videos without needing YouTube. Just look at Alex Jones: He’s been banned by Apple, YouTube, Twitter, and Facebook, and he still has a following. Do you really think that having your telephone service cut off in 1980 or not being able to use oil at the peak of Standard Oil’s dominance is comparable?
Re: Re: Re:3 Here's the difference, though…
Bell carries speech over wires. Facebook and Google host speech. Google may have a monopoly over the ad market, but that was due to the GDPR, which was meant to rein them in but ended up boosting their market share because they were the only ones who could afford the liability.
As for Facebook’s and Google’s market share:
You can use TikTok, Snapchat, Twitter, or any one of the right-wing social networks such as Gab, Parler, or Truth Social. Some monopoly Facebook has. 🙄 Google services can be uninstalled from android phones. You could use Duck-Duck-Go. Video is embedded into the HTML5 standard so if you know how to program, you could upload your own videos without needing YouTube. Just look at Alex Jones: He’s been banned by Apple, YouTube, Twitter, and Facebook, and he still has a following. Do you really think that having your telephone service cut off in 1980 or not being able to use oil at the peak of Standard Oil’s dominance is comparable?
I think you fail at analogies.
Re: Re: Re:4 My double posting.
I would like to apologize for my double posting; some bug in TechDirt’s new wordpress layout means that my posts aren’t showing up as soon as I post them, which means more accidental spam for me.
*prostrates self in humility*
My deepest apologies!
Re: Re: Re:3
Market share does not equal monopoly. That’s just basic law. Which makes me question your competence in this area.
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Re: Re: Re:4 Not Basic Law
“That’s just basic law.”
No what you are doing is linguistics not “basic law.” You are taking the literal etymological definition of monopoly and attaching that to anti-trust law which is not how a monopoly is defined by the law.
Legally its all about market share because there is no such thing as a literal monopoly in the real world. Under your definition of monopoly if Widget Global Inc. owns every widget factory, and every widget retailor in the country if just one person is making widgets in their garage in Wabash and selling them at the corner of Maple and Miami then Widget Global Inc. is not a monopoly.
Re: Re: Re:5
A monopoly based on market share exists if for a significant portion of the market, buyers have only one choice of provider, a common occurrence with telecom and cable. Such a market does not exists in the online, as competitors are equally accessible throughout the market.
Re: Re: Re:6
‘Facebook has a monopoly on online social interactions! Now excuse me while I post this comment on Twitter, Tik-tok, Parler, Gab, Trump Social, Discord, Mastadon and several other platforms for people to read and discuss.’
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Re: Re: Re:6 Standard Oil?
Do you think buyers only had the choice of standard oil? Again look up the market share of companies that were broken up. They dont come close to the market share of facebook and google.
Re: Re: Re:7
Market share has nothing to do with monopolies.
Since you are not posting this comment on Facebook, that alone proves that Facebook does not have a monopoly on posting comments.
Re: Re: Re:3
Google isn’t Twitter or Facebook, so its “market share” is ultimately irrelevant in this discussion.
And even if Twitter and Facebook do have an outsized share of the social media “market”, other social media (or social media–esque) services still exist. Those services may not have huge userbases, but that only makes them socially irrelevant in comparison to Twitter and Facebook.
Nobody is owed a spot on a social media service. Nobody is owed an audience for their speech. You have produced no law, statute, or court precedent that directly and provably says otherwise. If you want to go after Twitter and Facebook, do so by using anti-trust laws instead of attacking laws that would compel them to host speech they don’t want to host.
Re: Re: Re:
The important part is that private property and services can be regulated if it is deemed to be in the public interest. Within the context of the case this specifically refers to fair pricing of services, goods and the use of physical property when where there is a virtual monopoly, natural or un-natural.
And that’s why you have to explain why this case should apply to interactive internet services that competes on all levels and where people can freely choose whatever service that fits their needs.
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Re: Re: Re:2 Thats not How it Works
“specifically refers to fair pricing of services, goods”
That is not how supreme court rulings work. When the court rules on a Constitutional issue the scope is broad. The court doesn’t carve out minor exceptions that only relate to that specific case.
What I posted is the Munn Standard. Thats it. There is no context. It doesn’t specifically refer to grain silos delivered by rail and that alone.
Re: Re: Re:3
It actually is, though. SCOTUS can be as limited or as broad as it wants to be in its rulings.
Re: Re: Re:3
Oh, so you can use the Munn v Illinois decision for anything then?
All case-law where the Munn decision has been used deals with economic regulation in some form or another. Munn was a precursor to antitrust law, specifically the Sherman Antitrust Act.
It does, but that’s only important insofar that it gives the context for what can be regulated and why – and interactive internet services like social media doesn’t fit any of the requirements.
Re:
Lol. Why does it not surprise me that you — while calling me ignorant of the law — doesn’t understand what the court in Munn actually said, how Wabash limits Munn, and specifically how Munn applied to commerce not speech? I mean, jfc, this is basic stuff. You have once again failed the test of Google Law.
You honestly have jumped to the very top of the wrongest commenters we have around here, and that takes work.
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Re: Re: Wabash
Wabash doesn’t limit Munn in anyway. I dont care what you read on some website. Wabash specifically says it is not overturning or contradicting Munn.
In referencing Munn “Notwithstanding what is there said, this Court holds now, and has never consciously held otherwise”
The court is saying that they are not contradicting or over turning Munn. This is a separate constitutional issue related to state and federal authority. In Wabash the court said that the Illinois act that the court upheld on a 4th Amendment challenge did violate the commerce clause.
That doesn’t mean that Munn is overturned. It just means that the states and federal government have to stay in their lanes.
Under the Munn standard Congress passed the Interstate Commerce Commission Act in 1887.
To say that Munn was “overturned” by Wabash is simply stupid. How exactly is a case overturned in less than a decade but also one of the most cited cases in US history?
You have to be a legal moron to believe that.
Re: Re: Re:
I didn’t say it overturned Munn. And you didn’t respond to my actual point.
Nice tapdancing, dude.
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Re: Re: Re:2
Munn doesn’t apply to commerce. It applies to any private property put to the public interest. If I have a private road that no commercial vehicles travel but that road is open to public its still subject to all governmental regulations related to roads thanks to Munn. The moment I put my property to the public interest I’m subject to public control as it relates to that interest. If I wish to remove myself from the control I need only remove my property from the interest.
The moment you and your buddies decided you wanted ToS to be legal contracts you created a public interest. States have to adjudicate those contract disputes. That costs the public both in time and money. The state has every legal right to regulate what goes into those contracts now.
Re: Re: Re:3
The moment you and your buddies decided you wanted ToS to be legal contracts you created a public interest.
And those are the legal ToS contracts that are non-binding because they’re also not legal contracts because of the ToS, right?
You’ve painted yourself into quite the corner with this Schroedinger’s contract shit, haven’t you?
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Re: Re: Re:4 Haven't Painted Myself Into Any Hole
No you are simply dumb. Big Tech’s inability to abide by basic contract law is one of the major reasons such legislation is needed. States need to clear this stuff up on the front end to avoid costly litigation born by the public on the back end.
Re: Re: Re:5
Big Tech’s inability to abide by basic contract law is one of the major reasons such legislation is needed.
Will this also be applicable to Parler, Gettr, Trunt Social, Gab, and all the ‘bastions of freeze peach’ that have identical ToS’s?
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Re: Re: Re:6 I Dont Care
Do you think I give a @#%#. Political identify matters to you not to me. I don’t have a personality disorder lol. I know who I am so I don’t have to identify with a group.
Re: Re: Re:7
Do you think I give a @#%#.
Yup. You sure do. You’re part of the ‘conservative voices’ (read: asshole) that whine about being silenced by ‘big tech.’ Notice how many ‘liberals’ are getting kicked off social media for their ‘views?’ Yeah, me neither.
You should reread your comments and obfuscate a little bit by not using every right-wing-nutjob buzzword at every turn. Because that gives you away, and adding ‘being a liar’ to the already unflattering ‘full of shit’ opinion the other posters have of you isn’t a good look.
One more ‘conservative’ term and I’m sure someone’s gonna call a bingo.
Re: Re: Re:7
[Asserts facts contrary to extensive evidentiary records]
Re: Re: Re:7
To answer your statements in order.
Absolutely or you wouldn’t be out here trying to dig up all the time.
Bullshit, see above.
You know we can see your comment history, right?
What was the motto of your generation again?
Re: Re: Re:3
Munn doesn’t apply to commerce
Oh child.
The moment you and your buddies decided you wanted ToS to be legal contracts
You keep attributing to me beliefs and actions that have nothing to do with my actual beliefs and actions. When did I decide that I wanted TOS to be legal contracts? I spent years pointing out why they shouldn’t be. But, the courts actually went the other way.
Either way, you’re still wrong.
States have to adjudicate those contract disputes.
This isn’t a contract dispute.
The state has every legal right to regulate what goes into those contracts now.
Nothing about this law is about what goes into a contract.
Dude. Seriously. Just stop.
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Re: Re: Re:4
“Nothing about this law is about what goes into a contract.”
This law is almost entirely about what goes into a contract. Have you even read the acts? I doubt it. You tend to read opinion pieces then rewrite those opinion pieces with your own flair. Your “articles” are a game of telephone. Your opinion of an opinion.
That’s how you can say in Project Veritas vs. NYT that the judges order wasn’t a protective order when the order says protective order some eight times.
YOU NEVER READ IT!
Re: Re: Re:5
How’s those ivermectin injections coming along bro?
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Re: Re: Re:5 No Response
Yep not surprise Mike didn’t respond because he knows I’m right. Mike’s entire piece was him rewording the NYT’s opinion of the ruling. He chose to cherry pick the same dicta that the NYTs cherry picked not by chance but because that was all he read.
He had no clue the ruling was a protective order because he never read the order.
What a fraud!
Re: Re: Re:6
No, he didn’t respond because what you said doesn’t actually change anything, and it’s tiring to keep responding to the same thing over and over again, especially when you cite no evidence for your assertions.
Re: Re: Re:3
Social media services a destination, not a road. Under your strained analogy, Munn would apply to Internet access providers.
Re: Re: Re:3
It’s interesting that you are arguing against over a century of case-law here, and the 14th amendment to boot.
I guess that happens when you just read one paragraph while ignoring everything else mentioned in a case. Perhaps you should read all the other paragraphs in the decision, not just §4, because they matter too – like §6: The limitation by legislative enactment of the rate of charge for services rendered in a public employment, or for the use of property in which the public has an interest, establishes no new principle in the law, but only gives a new effect to an old one.
If it wasn’t about commerce and economic regulation – why does it specifically mention regulation of prices?
Then he should change his name to Professor Steamed Ham.
It’s amazing to see a legal scholar get section 230 and the first amendment completely wrong, is he saying that all websites and services must host all content including spam , defamation, anti vax and Qanon conspiracy theory’s. Eg if your post is removed censored or blocked you should be able to sue Facebook or any Internet forum that might want to moderate extreme content.
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Re:
Why do you believe mike over the legal scholar. Mike isn’t even linking to what the scholar wrote previously. He is linking to his own previous posts.
The articles that Mike claims to cite are paywalled and I don’t believe Mike is smart enough to know what he is reading.
Re: Re:
Said the guy who read public house and went on a tirade about public housing.
Christ what an idiot you prove yourself to be every time you show up here with your pretend degrees.
I believe that you may have 4 degrees, but I am guessing they are more along the lines of “Advanced Finger Painting” and “Underwater Basket Weaving” etc.
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Re: Re: Re:
Says the guy who thinks a 16th century Public House and a modern Pub are the same thing.
Re: Re: Re:2
They sure as hell aren’t public housing… ie housing that is supported by government funding.
Also, I see you didn’t argue against the degrees I think you have, so I must have made an accurate observation.
Re: Re: Re:2 Paging Drs Dunning and Kruger to the white courtesyy phone.
There are still places that call themselves public houses. Legally speaking they are the same thing. That’s why we are making fun of you. You are so fucking stupid you would try to find a pubic louse in a cancer ward.
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Re: Re: Re:3 Nope
A “Public House” was government mandated rent controlled housing. If you wanted a license to sell liquor and food you had to have so many living spaces for rent at prices set by the government.
Re: Re: Re:4
When you have a chance you meed to look up, and learn the difference between a public house, and public housing. When you do you will realize that you are using the wrong term, and referring to pubs, and not social housing. The top of this [Wikipedia article]{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pub) can be used to start your learning experience.
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Re: Re: Re:5
Privately owned but rent controlled housing is considered a form of public housing. I know you are stuck up on literal definitions but in the US about 10% of all “public housing” is privately owned rent controlled housing according to HUD.
Rent controlled “Public houses” are actually the first form of public housing as government owned housing came much later. But rent controlled hosing was then always has been and currently is (and growing very fast) a form of public housing.
NOW SHUT UP!
Re: Re: Re:6
How about you make them, you whiny fuck.
Re: Re: Re:6
From Encyclopedia Britannica public house
You obvious have the Internet at your fingertips, so give a citation for public house being used to mean social housing, otherwise known as public housing.
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Re: Re: Re:7
There are other sources where you can see exactly how the state accomplished this.
I’m not going to google the same sources that cite the same britsh acts that required all public houses to have x number of rooms, set rents for such room, x number of stables, set fees for such stables etc. “Public Houses” were privately owned rent controlled housing. Even today that is still considered “Public Housing” by Hud and its going because HUD has massive plans to privatize much of “public housing” through its Rental Assistance Demonstration (RAD) program.
You and the rest of Mikes Misfits can go @#%^% themselves.
Re: Re: Re:8
You are twisting the definition of words, as hostels and hotels catering to travelers are not considered housing. The public house acts were intended to ensure that travelers could usually find overnight accommodation. Public housing on the other hand is government regulated or provided permanent accommodation. Quit trying to conflate the two to make it appear that you are right wen you are wrong. In short a public house was a place for travelers to stay, while public housing is rent controlled or government provided houses, and the two are distinct uses and areas of law.
Re: Re: Re:8
Dude, just admit you fucked up and take the L. It would honestly be less embarassing for everyone.
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Re: Re: Re:9
Sorry you cant invent an “L” I get what Mikes Misfits do here. The 6 or so of you scatter as many off the wall ideas hoping to get one to stick. You can be wrong 99 our of 100 times but if you can even get a single “L” for the other side you will claim victory.
You are that pathetic of a loser.
Tell what I’m going to do Stephen. I’m going to @#%^ your mom so I can give her a child she will actually love.
Re: Re: Re:10
You whine about people trying to “win” arguments, and your best counterargument is “I’mma fuck ur mom lol”?
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Re: Re: Re:11
No more of a rude way of saying your mother never loved you and is ashamed of you. Which be both know is true.
Re: Re: Re:12
Knowing if that were true would do nothing to change the fact of your “public house”/“public housing” fuck-up.
I’m a fucked-up little gremlin of a commenter who gets into protracted Internet slapfights with an asshole who thinks copyright infringers should be executed by the state. And I still know when to take an L.
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Re: Re: Re:13 Copyright Infringers
Copyright infringers? Where do you get this bullshit? You are a moron. No wonder your mother never loved you. I too would be embarrassed to call you my child. I’m willing ot bet you fell so far from the tree you once asked your parents ‘Am I adopted.’ And they responded ‘Why the @#%$ would we pick you!’
You are such a moron and so tribal. You dont know who you are do you? You think that because I disagree with mike social media and free speech I must disagree with him on copyright. Uh sorry I’m not a member of any tribe. I’m my own person. I don’t gain identity spending my life defending the leader of my tribe on a blog. I know who I am.
I actually agree with Mike on copyright issues. I’ve said so on his threads about judge shopping in copyright abuse. My only issue was that Mike is so dense the can argue in a thread of the Florida social media law that judge shopping doesn’t exist and the plaintiffs hadn’t deliberately shopped to get Judge Hinkle when mike has a dozen threads complaining about judge shopping in patent abuse.
Re: Re: Re:14 Man, talk about an ego the size of Texas.
I was referring to terop, but go off, I guess.
Re: Re: Re:15
To Tero Pulkinnen’s credit, he hasn’t shown up in a while after claiming that Putin would launch the war on Ukraine in the name of copyright preservation.
But give him time.
Re: Re: Re:10
… says the illiterate moron who has been wrong 100 out of 100 times.
Re: Re: Re:6
The only way to get us to stop rebutting your lies is to stop lying.
Re: Re:
What the guy wrote before is linked to in those stories.
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Re: Re: Re: Paywalled
WJ is paywalled and I have as much faith in Mike ability to read something legal as I do Casey Anthony running a daycare.
Re: Re: Re:2
First of all, he’s linking to a specific opinion piece in the WSJ that is the basis for that article, so he can’t link anywhere else foe that information, and he has no control over whether or not that’s paywalled. He didn’t choose to link to paywalled sites to hide anything.
Second, he also links to non-paywalled places that contain the full text of the case law he’s citing and to other articles on this site (or other non-paywalled sites) which do so, which is what I was referring to. You can actually read the sources he’s citing for his points against the opinions he’s discussing without paying a cent. The parts in the WSJ he links are the points he’s saying are wrong, not the support for his claims about what the law actually says.
I don't knwo what they are teaching kids these days...
“Constitutional Legal Scholar” is not as impressive as it used to be. Do you know who else claims to be a “Constitutional Legal Scholar”? Josh Hawley.
Re:
Its become as silly as people who claim to be biblical scholars, who always seem to miss the parts that say we should whip them for being false profits.
Re: Re:
I think you mean “false prophets“. “False profits” is what they obtain by being a tax-exempt business.
Re: Re: Re:
False profits is what they extract from their congregation as donations.
Re: Re: Re:
“False profits” is what they obtain by being a tax-exempt business.
We should whip them for it anyways.
Re: Re: Re:2
Reminder: If someone asks “what would Jesus do”, you can tell them that “whip people” is an option.
Re: Re: Re:
This is one of those times when my brain glitching actually works out pretty well either way.
Whip? Whip? Whip? Three whips.
This surprises me not at all. Hamburger taught my 1L contracts class at CLS. It was, hands down, the weirdest and least educational class I’ve ever taken. We never discussed the UCC. He was obsessed with the statute of frauds. Much of the semester was taken up with a rambling hypothetical about an uncle who asks you to manage a vineyard. What this ever had to do with the course was never clear. At a certain point I started to wonder if he actually had a vineyard and was looking for free legal advice. It was a shitshow.
Re:
Maybe Chozen attended a seminar by Hamburger, and that’s where he gets his crazy ideas from.