UPS Insists That It Is Not Helping The NSA 'Interdict' Packages To Install Backdoors
from the not-us! dept
After Glenn Greenwald’s book came out last week, one of the big stories was the additional revelations about the NSA’s interdiction program — in which the NSA grabs packages of computer equipment that are being shipped, outfits the equipment with backdoors — and sends them along their shipping route as if nothing happened. Most famously, it included an image of it happening, showing a clear Cisco box:
UPS, which Cisco has used since 1997 to ship hardware to customers around the world, said on Thursday that it did not voluntarily allow government officials to inspect its packages unless it is required to do so by law.
“UPS’ long-standing policy is to require a legal court-ordered process, such as a subpoena, before responding to any third-party requests,” UPS spokeswoman Kara Ross wrote in an e-mail to TheBlot Magazine. “UPS is not aware of any court orders from the NSA seeking to inspect technology-related shipments.”
In a follow-up e-mail, Ross said UPS had no knowledge of similar orders from the FBI, CIA or any other federal agency.
Keys also reached out to other popular shipping options, including the US Postal Service, FedEx and DHL. USPS says that they don’t participate in any such NSA program (though, some may question the validity of that statement). FedEx and DHL appear to have simply ignored repeated requests for comment from Keys.
Of course, it’s not impossible that there are other methods being used to get the equipment — or that the folks who handle these “special” projects are kept way far away from any official spokesperson. Clearly, however, the NSA can get these packages, and now the doubt is going to spread across pretty much everyone in the logistics chain, no matter what they say.
Filed Under: glenn greenwald, interdiction, nsa, surveillance, tao
Companies: cisco, ups
Comments on “UPS Insists That It Is Not Helping The NSA 'Interdict' Packages To Install Backdoors”
Ah good old NSA, making friends in all corners of the country…
Re: Re:
BFF’s
NSLs?
The NSA would be more likely to use NSLs than court orders, wouldn’t they? And UPS would not be allowed to confirm that fact.
Whether or not UPS is involved in the situation, this brings up an excellent point about NSLs: that they exist mean that no denial any company issues actually means a thing.
Re: NSLs?
The thing is, as was discussed when this photo first hit the internet, UPS doesn’t need to be involved here — these are packages leaving the country, which means they can be intercepted while in posession of US Customs. As packages often have large delays when going through customs, the NSA could be flagged by Customs that a package destined for a watch target has shown up, and the NSA team can come in, make the adjustment, and be on there way while everyone else just puts it down to “standard customs delays”.
I’ve been involved in international shipping of custom electronics, and had US agency who wasn’t US Customs fully disassemble the equipment and then contact my company asking for a full description of what the electronics were supposed to do (beyond what was in the export papers) — so I know this sort of thing is done at least to some degree.
Re: Re: NSLs?
One other thing: notice that the UPS tracking packet etc. are already in place on the box, but it doesn’t look like the bill of lading has been messed with yet. This indicates that the package was intercepted before it left the country but after it had been handled by UPS.
Re: Re: Re: NSLs?
As noted above, at the border freight gets consolidated and at sometime it can be inspected. The inspection may involve opening the package to verify contents, etc. So, it is quite possible that the NSA with other sleaze ball agencies are taking advantage of this “inspection”. Cisco and UPS have no control of this, nor does any other company.
Re: Re: Re: NSLs?
Yeah, that makes a whole lot more sense.
Re: NSLs?
They would be in breach of NSLs if they admitted they’d received them. They’d open themselves up to civil suits if they said they’d never received any when they had.
They may not be able to admit to receiving NSLs, but they couldn’t lie and say they have NOT received any NSLs.
They would be between a rock and a hard place. About the only answer they could provide that would protect them in all cases would be “no comment”.
Re: NSLs?
“…did not voluntarily allow government officials…”
Voluntarily being the key word.
Well, who is the default provider for shipping via Amazon, because it’s pretty clear they work with the NSA:
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140124/10564825981/nsa-interception-action-tor-developers-computer-gets-mysteriously-re-routed-to-virginia.shtml
Re: It may just be me...
I just returned a package to Amazon, and the ONLY option was UPS. They refused to take it back by any other means.
Also it was delivered UPS now that I think about it.
So, yeah, it looks as if UPS is an NSA mole.
Re: Re:
“it’s pretty clear they work with the NSA”
While it’s certainly possible, I think it’s far from “pretty clear”.
We’re not “helping” them…per se. We’re just looking the other way when it happens. That doesn’t count, does it?
?UPS? long-standing policy is to require a legal court-ordered process, such as a subpoena, before responding to any third-party requests,? UPS spokeswoman Kara Ross wrote in an e-mail to TheBlot Magazine. ?UPS is not aware of any court orders from the NSA seeking to inspect technology-related shipments.?
That strikes me as language games. Their ‘policy’ is to require it, but they don’t say if they followed that policy. They could have been much more direct.
Then they go on to say they have no received a court order, but it suffers the same issue with statements like ‘From the NSA’, ‘inspect’, ‘technology-related’.
It very well could be nothing, but that broad language leaves me suspicious.
Re: Re:
A quick Google search using the terms “ups drug interdiction” finds a 2013 story from MPR News (?When a drug dog sniffs, is it a search??, by Bob Collins), which reports on a case decided that year. In Minnesota v Eichers, the Minnsota Court of Appeals related the following:
There’s your UPS policy.
BS on UPS! They are constantly delivering my packages to wrong addresses.
Bingo
“UPS, which Cisco has used since 1997 to ship hardware to customers around the world, said on Thursday that it did not voluntarily allow government officials to inspect its packages unless it is required to do so by law.”
There it is.
I AM RE DIRECTING THESE PACKAGES UNDER [silent] PROTEST!
Re: Bingo
I’d go even further in my distrust of this sentence. Of course UPS doesn’t “voluntarily” grant access to packages if there’s a warrant. Complying with a warrant isn’t voluntary.
The only time they could voluntarily grant access to a package is when there isn’t a warrant. And they never really address that situation explicitly.
Re: Bingo
US v Patty (E.D. Mich. 2001)
(Citations omitted.)
Voluntary vs. Involuntary
“UPS …said on Thursday that it did not voluntarily allow government officials to inspect its packages unless it is required to do so by law.”
This statement is followed by how UPS handles inspection demands that are voluntary. So what happens with packages
where the demand is forced under an NDA?
Re: Voluntary vs. Involuntary
USA v Souza (10th Cir. 2000)
Wonder if Amazon, Newegg, etc, accept will-call? =/
Or is it more likely that this is being done through customs?
Agents?
Even if you assume that UPS isn’t lying, that doesn’t mean the NSA hasn’t planted agents as drivers to ‘deliver the goods’.
Re: Agents?
Cooley v State (Alaska Ct. App. 2009)
Cisco->reseller->NSA->customer. AFAIK Cisco doesn’t generally ship to a direct customer. It’s all goes through their resellers.
Re: Re:
Cisco->NSA->Reseller->Customer
one or both of these companies are likely liars. Even if they did do it they cant very well come out and say YEP WE DID IT. You can expect they do the same to Juniper gear as well.
The NSA has once again damaged the creditability of all. Through the use of the NSL’s no one can believe any statements made about this as no one who knows can tell the truth. What you are left with instead is damaged corporate trust in products and an even worse distrust of government functions.
This will continue to spread until the US has nothing the world wants to purchase for fear of some method of spying, be that teddy bears, software, hardware, or regular products of any nature. It has done itself no favors in all this cover up. It hasn’t even gained short term benefits given the distrust it has sowed in the process.
At some point the government will have to acknowledge it’s war footing is over. So is the endless money being spent on it. This business of trillions of dollars in debt will have to be addressed and sooner rather than later is called for. Our politicians and the government have spent us into the poor house and with their aid have buried the economy under debt.
Re: Re:
Well, time to rein in the governmental sabotage. It is damaging free and private speech worldwide and making global markets route around U.S. products.
At the current point of time, any corporation with critical security needs is better off buying their equipment in the PRC or Korea.
Re: Re:
While this is true, the mass damage to credibility in this case is not particularly the NSA’s fault; it’s the fault of whoever wrote “national security letters”, and their associated automatic effectively-unappealable gag orders, into the law. (And partly / indirectly the fault of whoever voted to approve them, and hasn’t worked to get them removed from the law since.)
How do they deal with 2nd hand equipment?
If someone ends up with equipment that is being controlled by the NSA thru planting new firmware or the like, and they purchased that equipment 2nd hand, how would that play out in court? They were not the original target but yet their data is being scoped up without any type of legal justification.
Re:
“Well see we didn’t intentionally target them, so all that data we scooped up on them doesn’t count. ‘Do we still have the data?’ Well, I’m afraid I can’t answer that at the moment, due to national security concerns.”
Pretty much along those lines I’d bet.
?UPS is not aware of any court orders from the NSA seeking to inspect technology-related shipments.?
NSA doesn’t “[seek] to ‘inspect’;” NSA seeks to tamper/implant.
translation: we do allow the government to do it, because a NSL or document from the FISA court is a valid legal order. however, other than those instances no subpena have ever been served to us.
Re: Re:
People v Bui (Ill. App. Ct., 2008)
People v Tyus (Ill. App. Ct., 2011)
You guys keep forgetting that UPS gets paid by the Federal government every time UPS allows the Federal government to inspect/search packages, since they are also installing spyware on said tech devices shipped through UPS.
it could be
it could also just be that the image shown in staged, part of a pattern of disinformation against the US government started by groups unknown, who are attempting to take the Snowden revelations and expand on them wholesale.
There are a few agendas at work here.
Re: it could be
Or you could be an idiot. That seems like the far more likely scenario. Why do you have such a hardon for the NSA when you’re all the way in Hong Kong?
Re: Re: it could be
All the way in Hong Kong? Or my TOR exit is there? Or my VPN exit? I don’t know, I don’t control it. Perhaps you should worry more about the message and nothing else.
Are you suggesting that you as an anonymous poster have hacked Techdirt so that you can see posting IPs? I would actually be interested to know what the site registers as my IP – and why you would have access to it.
BTW: it should come out as Canada. But then again, who knows with the internet, right?
Re: Re: Re: it could be
Was it not you who recently posted that TOR was compromised? So why are you using it?
You know that according to RIAA law using TOR and a VPN makes you a pirate?
Re: it could be
You have absolutely no basis for that contention. Any other inane comments?
At least folks on Glenn’s pic monkey around with bottom of package, to minimize failure.
Notice, that not only NSA allowed to take pics of faces, they gladly use it in own top secret presentations. Clearly, Alexander and Clapper had no Plan B on their mind. Would you hire them as security guards of your parking lot?
BTW:
1. This is closed area of shipping warehouse, likely UPS’s air facility. See pallet lifter handle on left. See stuff at ceiling.
2. Very short and very bold guy is easy to recognize by neighbors.
3. Cisco is whoring itself to NSA via hardware backdoors. What is on Glenn’s pic is TAO. Means something designed for the very victim. Say Saudi embassy.
4. They using hair dryer to separate tape. Must have original UPS’s on hand to replace. Easy to get from an insider (or manager on duty).
5. Is that woman pregnant, or just overdosed on McDonald’s on recent lunch?
Re: Re:
“Notice, that not only NSA allowed to take pics of faces”
An excellent point. In fact, why are any photos allowed in the area at all? That seems like an obvious Bad Idea.
Unbeknownst to Americans the National Goal is population control (Death fix it / deficit). The Goal set in Executive Order 12871 (reduce gov’t (we the people / veterans and gov’t spending / liabilities / expenditures). The New Death Penalty Bill is the smoking gun. It protects the American Holocaust Perpetraitors in the National Partnership Council.
Whose keeping count in the American Holocaust? Certainly not the American Holocaust Perpetraitors (Nicolaitans Revelation 2:15).
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/02/03/push-for-new-national-cemeteries-as-veteran-deaths-bring-sites-near-capacity/
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/report-iran-billionaire-executed-26b-fraud-23852946
In order to save money decision makers medical, administratively and judicially are being coerced through Terrorism-Coercion, Collusion, Corruption, Subversion, Subterfuge, and Sabotage(cointelpro tactics). These are premeditated and orchestrated treasonous methods used by Congress and SCOTUS to reduce the cost and population. The plan continues to be lie, delay and deny until you die (death fix it / deficit). The result a holocaust the total destruction of entire American families (suicides and executions). Goin Postal was described as a myth. The result of Terminal Injustice (Collusion / Terrorism by those entrusted with enforcement of rules, regulations and laws of the US Constitution refusing to do so for personal gain) continues to be Ambush Attacks / Murder by proxy ie. Joseph Harris (US Postal Employee), John Allen Muhammad (US Army 17 years), Major Nidal Malik Hassan (US Army Psychiatrist), Christopher Dorner (LAPD police officer and United States Navy Reserve office), etc.
Recognize the catalyst. Recognize economic oppression, the outrageous extreme physical, mental, financial and emotional stress. Its premediated and orchestrated for population control / death fix it (American Holocaust).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3bNWtXhH8o
http://usat.ly/KGQbCk
http://www.fastnote.com/rachel-maddow
http://www.scribd.com/doc/24093243/Alert-the-Hazard
http://www.fastnote.com/bill-maher
http://www.rep-am.com/articles/2013/07/03/news/local/734902.txt
http://www.scribd.com/doc/48662078/Will-Homeland-Security-Only-Terrorize-Non-Catholics
http://www.capitalgazette.com/news/vets-split-over-need-for-paid-attorneys-in-va-claims/article_318d15c0-419f-5208-aa7c-2b5a655fe145.html?mode=jqm
YHVH solution for American Holocaust Perpetraitors is Mongoose Protocol.
I AM YHVH DEITY THE FARTHER CIPHER 888
YHVH suspends mercy in response to god (government of deceivers) suspension of inalienable rights ( life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness) in the American Holocaust (Moral corruption, suspension of Habeas Corpus to avoid liabilities – Fraud – Terminal Injustice – Economic oppression – Murderbyproxy – Population Control – death fix it>deficit
If UPS gets a Nation Security Letter from the FBI, it states in the letter that UPS is not legally allowed to talk about the letter, and they will face criminal punishment for talking about the NSL’s gag order.
Which is why American services and technologies can no longer be trusted. US companies are forced to lie, by the US Federal Government, or face legal fines and lengthy prison sentences.
Volunteer vs Conscript
There is a whole lot of corporate wiggle room between not doing something and then adding the clarification of not doing something voluntarily.
Exactly what does Cisco and UPS meaning by not voluntarily doing it, do they mean they didn’t approach the NSA and volunteer to do it but when the NSA paid them and told them to do it they did it but involuntarily.
Personally I am no longer ordering any electronics delivered out of the US, not that I believe they necessarily want to hack me but because they would give a crap about using those electronics to hack someone else in my name and then sticking me with the charges unless I can prove my innocence.
Why take that chance.
Re: Volunteer vs Conscript
I’m assuming they mean exactly what they said. They do not do it “voluntarily”. Being presented with a legal demand that they do it wouldn’t fall under that category — in that case, they are being compelled to do it and are not acting voluntarily.
Re: Re: Volunteer vs Conscript
More from U.S. v Souza (10th Cir. 2000). This part comes after Special Agent Rowden has removed the suspect package from UPS property, and then returned it to the UPS facility.
Re: Re: Re: Volunteer vs Conscript
Yes, I’m well aware of this, but it’s irrelevant to what I was saying. I was trying to say what UPS meant by their statement, not whether or not they were being truthful.
NSA ruining American business?
I can’t imagine ways to damage American businesses more effective than what the Obama Administration has been doing. IBM, CISCO, Google, Apple, all manufacturers of routers, modems, servers and software are under suspicion for leaking corporate data to the NSA. This will cost these companies sales and workers to lose their jobs. Is this why we elected him? To ruin so many prosperous companies and the jobs that goes with them?
Re: NSA ruining American business?
“Well, these businesses wouldn’t be in jeopardy is Snowden had kept his big fat mouth shut! So blame him.” -US Gov.
The key word....
….is “voluntarily”.
does UPS necessarily know?
Does UPS necessarily know?
If I (the NSA) find sympathetic employees at the loading dock of the UPS facility closest to CISCO, couldn’t I issue National Security Letters to the individuals? Would UPS corporate bosses need to be informed?
I know people in my real life who would think it’s really cool to be a deputy spy, who would love the legal chance to show off their ability to counterfeit, their ability to fool you.
Re: does UPS necessarily know?
Does UPS corporate necessarily know that there are ?package interdiction teams? routinely working inside UPS parcel sorting facilities??yanking boxes off the conveyor belts?
Take People v Kaslowski (Mich. Ct. App. 2000):
The events related there occurred in 1994. Would UPS corporate know if someone had borrowed a UPS delivery van twenty years ago? As long as they brought it back in one piece?
So now consider the more recent case of Luckl v Commonwealth (Ky. Ct. App., 2012)
Do you think UPS corporate knows about practices that have been occurring over two decades?
Re: Re: does UPS necessarily know?
I would assume UPS Corporate knows absolutely everything that the Federal Government does in its “interdiction” operations on UPS property, upon to-be-UPS-delivered products belonging to American citizens. The examples given were about UPS doing its part to assist the fed in the War on Drugs.
How much more so would UPS be willing to assist/allow federal “interdiction” operations that pertained to the War on Terror?
The question now, is Why?
—
However, I still think the really important aspect of this situation is as John Fenderson noted:
“Whether or not UPS is involved in the situation, this brings up an excellent point about NSLs: that they exist mean that no denial any company issues actually means a thing.”
NSLs change the whole playing field completely.
That the federal government can now legally force a company to lie to the public means that the apparently honest companies and the obviously dishonest companies are now indistinguishable and that nobody should really accept what any company says in its own defense when it comes to assisting the federal government in clandestine operations.
It would appear that the NSA, CIA, FBI, HLS and the US Fed are hell-bent on utterly destroying any remaining trust between global citizens and all US companies, by every means at their disposal.
Shocked!
I’m shocked! Shocked, I say, that there’s spying going on here!