Evangelist Adorns Biblical Child Rearing Book With 'Modern Family' Portrait He Found Via Google

from the the-wicked-google/tv/gays-made-me-do-it dept

Maybe it’s because I’ve had to learn how to find Creative Commons images for use in posts, but I always thought that the outrage over Google image searches was silly. I mean, I get that there is such a thing as copyright, but when Germany can’t recognize that an image search isn’t a violation of the law, then there has to be a mental breakdown somewhere. Likewise, when my Australian friends sue Google because a search of their name in the images tab happens to bring up pictures of the violent criminal that attacked them…I mean, what the hell?

Now, having said all of that, most folks are at least smart enough to know that you shouldn’t go plucking around the internet, yoinking pictures without doing at least a cursory inquiry into what that image is and who might own it, all for the use of your for-profit eBook. But, as Brig C. McCoy writes in to tell us, most folks doesn’t equal all folks. Meet Doug Sehorne. Doug’s an evangelist who wrote a book called Bible Principles Of Child Discipline (from the Book of Proverbs). Oh, and hey, here’s the cover.

See the problem? No, not the horrific plain white text over the blue background. The image Doug Sehorne used for his book on how to go about raising your children Old Testament-style is a mock photo from ABC’s Modern Family. In case you’re not familiar with Modern Family, the show includes a functional homosexual couple with an adopted child. A bunch of people pointed this out to Doug, at which point he promptly apologized, admitted he should have known better than to just use images from TV shows, and thanked everyone very much for the help.

Nah, just kidding. He melted down faster than ice cream in Hell. From his Facebook page:

FALSELY ACCUSED!

Well, I just got a phone call about the picture I used on my Book about Child Discipline. Evidently it is from a wicked TV show involving a gay couple! Here is the situation.

1. I do not even have a TV and have not for 35 years.

2. I never heard of the TV show.

3. I got the image from a search on Google images, which I assumed were not copyrighted, etc.

4. Everyone who knows me, knows I would never condone such wickedness as sodomy or even TV.

Okay, show of hands: who wants to take advice on raising children from this guy? Yeah, I didn’t think so. Now, Doug’s book, which advises parents that they cannot raise children without a good and sturdy paddle (and, no, I’m not making that up), used a copyrighted image for the cover and this was his response to being called out on it? Lord knows (get it?) we’re not big on the restrictive nature of copyright, but you have to at least take a look at what you’re using. Not having a television (because it’s apparently wicked? WTF?) is no excuse, since he clearly has a computer and that image had to have come from somewhere.

Apparently you can’t teach evangelicals about copyright without a good and sturdy paddle.

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Comments on “Evangelist Adorns Biblical Child Rearing Book With 'Modern Family' Portrait He Found Via Google”

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199 Comments
Richard (profile) says:

Not Among the Elect

“Everyone who knows me, knows I would never condone such wickedness as sodomy or even TV.”

Thank goodness he cleared THAT up. Since I don’t know him, I might have rejected his book on the inference from that cover pic that he condoned both sodomy and TV – sodomy ON TV even.

Instead, he’s merely a lazy, copyright violating, superstitious primitive. No problem there.

S. T. Stone says:

Re: So where's the shame in making a mistake and confessing it publicly soon as known?

The implication here is that the evangelist cared more about the image coming from a TV show that features a gay family as some of its core characters (and thus raising his anti-gay ire) than the copyright infringement. The evangelist didn?t even apologize for the infringement.

DannyB (profile) says:

Re: So where's the shame in making a mistake and confessing it publicly soon as known?

The real shame is you not screaming about copyright at the top of your lungs.

This guy infringed copyright! That is the worst of the worst possible heinous crimes against humanity! Where is your outrage!

If you don’t like Mike or TechDirt so much, even though neither one are pirates nor condone piracy, then why aren’t you outraged against someone who brazenly stole a well known image of a well known TV show? His theft of that image makes the creators of the show unable to use the image anymore. He doesn’t even apologize for his theft.

Talk about a double standard. So you must be condoning piracy in this instance.

gojomo (profile) says:

Modern Family should really...

…integrate this into an episode next season. Like, the new neighbors are corporal-punishment fire-and-brimstone types… and while visiting their house, Phil notices this book on their bookshelf, with his family on the cover, and is perplexed. Then the dad’s family and in-laws get involved somehow, the original picture (where the other spokes of the family were cropped out) is found online, misunderstandings and hilarity ensue.

DannyB (profile) says:

Re: Listing of Sehorne's Apparent Religious Principles

Most of the modern denominations of Christianity agree on seven basic tenants.

1. People did not evolve from monkeys.
2. Gay sex isn’t natural.
3. Life begins by conception.
4. Guns are good.
5. Hollywood is evil.
6. God is the determining factor in all wars, major sporting events, and TV award shows.
7. We must spread the good news of this Gospel of 7 basic tenants.

(That list brazenly repeated from some documentary I saw on Netflix. Sorry, don’t remember which.)

Ironically, evangelicals should be instead focused on sin, man’s need of God, the cross, God’s plan of salvation, forgiveness, how we should love and forgive as God has done for us, etc. (Whether you believe that or not is irrelevant. That is the message you should be hearing from them.) But modern evangelicals are really a political action group. When Jesus stood before Pilate he said “my kingdom is not of this world . . . if my kingdom were of this world, then my servants would fight”. What we have now is a political group that is primarily focused on building a kingdom of wealth and power that is very much of this world. Just sayin’. Also, note, you’ll never hear words about the cross or forgiveness cross the lips of Fred Phelps and his gang; so who are they followers of? Basically, their own message and words should be a useful test.

Anonymous Coward says:

Calling out an evangelist

is really unfair. I mean, these are inferior primates who have failed the qualifying intelligence test to be considered homo sapiens. The best they can manage to do under even optimal circumstances is not fling their own poop at each other, so if one of them manages to point-and-click at the pictures on the intertubes, you shouldn’t criticize them. Just reward them with a banana and move on.

Bruce Gerencser (profile) says:

Welcome to the wonderful, wacky world of the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist (IFB) church movement. IFB pastors are known for their arrogance. After all, they are called by God to be the voice of God to the people they pastor. Seahorne is a prototypical IFB preacher.

I was raised up and trained in the IFB church movement, pastoring Evangelical churches for 25 years. I am now an atheist. Not having a TV is quite typical in the IFB church movement. My wife and I didn’t have a TV for years. Reason? The Bible says, I will set no wicked thing before my eyes.

I know it sounds crazy but when you are in the bubble it all make sense. It is only when you are free from it do you realize you believed some bat%^*# crazy stuff. My family and I are very glad to be free from it.

Aureantes (profile) says:

Re: Re: I wonder

It’s /Koine/ Greek….how do you read it if you can’t even spell it properly?

And, more to the point to the dispute re gayness…how does St. Paul’s assurance that homosexuals cannot enter the Kingdom (esp. given that he was a noted Zealot before his conversion, and therefore steeped in radical religious conservatism) get to override Jesus’ own notable lack of condemnation on the subject?

Just wondering, you know, seeing as you brought it up as accurately /translated/…

Kcits (profile) says:

I wonder if I will read articles here again

Condemning this man on the use of the photo is one thing. Condemning him on the basis of his faith is quite another. Sadly modern man sees nothing wrong with immoral actions and makes fun of those of faith. In the end, if they are right and there is no God we all go to nothing and thats the end. If those of faith are right the life of sin here on earth will lead to everlasting punishment.
So if the people of faith are wrong, they have nothing to worry about. On the other hand if those living in sin are wrong they have a lot to be worried about.

Bruce Gerencser (profile) says:

Re: I wonder if I will read articles here again

Sehorne is a public figure who writes books and preaches. His beliefs are fair game, especially beliefs that are harmful to people.

I hope you know using Pascal’s Wager to argue for a person believing is not a valid argument. Basically, you are saying that I should believe in the Christian God just in case I am wrong. In other words, get fire insurance,

All Christians like Sehorne are atheistic when it comes to any other God but their own. Using your logic they should become Buddhists, Muslims, etc just to make sure they have all the God bases covered.

Kcits (profile) says:

Re: Re: I wonder if I will read articles here again

I cant convince anyone to have faith, no man can. That would be against God’s word. No man can say that Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Ghost, also, No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Dont think I was trying to convince you that you are wrong. I was simply pointing out the fact that if I am wrong I have nothing to worry about.

No, someones faith is not “fair game” Thats the problem with people today. They think anything is fair game. Someones faith is far from it.

Bruce Gerencser (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: I wonder if I will read articles here again

I didn’t say everything is fair game. Sehorne is a public figure and different rules apply to public figures. I am a public figure. I blog, write letters to editor, and I am considered the public face of atheism where I live. People write and say all kinds of things about. They are nasty, they lie, etc. However, this what comes with being a public figure. If Sehorne doesn’t want his belief system critiqued he should not write books or make public statements on the Internet.

DannyB (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 I wonder if I will read articles here again

Try this experiment.

Put the shoe on the other foot. Always do this.

Assume for a moment:
1. that God is real
2. that you personally know this to be true despite that you cannot prove it

Now think about how silly the experiment you suggested will sound.

It would be kind of like saying: Now try replacing President Eisenhower with names of other fictional characters and see how it sounds.

Kcits (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 I wonder if I will read articles here again

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is not provable. It isnt facts that someone can demonstrate. You cant make yourself believe. Thats why its called faith, not fact. Your free to believe in the made up theories of man all you want. Its a form of faith because half of it cant be proved. Try proving the big bang or that the universe may cycle.
By faith I also believe that if you continue to resist Gods word, you will die in your sins, and suffer eternal punishment for those sins. Just because you resist that faith teaaches us Christ paid the punishment for believers on the cross. Believe it or not, its your immortal soul that is at stake.

art guerrilla (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 I wonder if I will read articles here again

“references” ? ? ?
i’m giving you a ‘funny’ vote for sure, dude…

oh, by they way, you somehow slipped out of addressing the salient point of your first responder: in the pascal wager, WHY is it xtianity which is the horse you are betting on (i bet dog almighty loves that ‘reasoning’) ? ? ?

why not judaism, islam, etc ad infinitum ? ? ?
don’t you have to join ALL religions to keep your bases covered ? ? ?
don’t tell me, you have a ‘reference’ for that…

quite comfy that circular logic, lets no real logic interfere with your ‘faith’…

see you in hell, sinner…
(i’ll be wearing the beer sippy helmet…)

art guerrilla
aka ann archy
eof

Chronno S. Trigger (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 I wonder if I will read articles here again

“You appear to be yet another sinner who thinks they can win some sort of debate and feel better while living in sin. Repent now.”

“I cant convince anyone to have faith, no man can. That would be against God’s word.”

What does your book say about going against god’s word? Worse then that, you’re not trying to just convince someone, you’re trying to force them threw insult and fear.

Kcits (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9 I wonder if I will read articles here again

Nice try , taking words out of context and trying to make them say something different.
I cant force anyone to believe anything. No one can, you might be able to get someone to say they believe, but there is no way of telling if they do or not except by their actions.
I am not insulting anyone and if they fear something that isn’t something that would be accomplished by my actions but by their own.
Gods word says to warn sinners of the path that they are on.

All men have committed sin, all unrepentant sinners will go to hell. Repent not and trust in Christ.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10 I wonder if I will read articles here again

You are basing your belief upon a book proven to have been written by men decades, if not centuries, after the conjectured events within the book. The ‘Holy Bible’ is a book written by men full of so many contradictions that anyone that reads and understands it is left wondering how anyone might actually be able to successfully base their life around it.

In the end, Science is fact based, and religion is faith based. They can peacefully coexist in one person, and yet this is completely outside the purpose of this article. That leaves you to be the troll under this particular bridge.

Kcits (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11 I wonder if I will read articles here again

This is not some debate that so called facts will win.
Hate someone once, you will die and end up in hell. Lie one time, you will die and end up in hell. Covet something once, you will die and end up in hell. Have sexual desire in your heart for someone you are not married to once, you will die and end up in hell.
Repent of your sins now and trust in Christ.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 I wonder if I will read articles here again

Yeah go figure, people don’t care to be told that they are horrible and deserve eternal torture unless they worship a particular master/god figure.

To look at it from the other perspective, as you seem to suggest:

If I, or someone else went around saying that religious people were immoral scum, and that they deserved to be tortured and killed unless they renounced their religion(none of which I believe mind), I’m betting you’d find that rather offensive as well, and wouldn’t care or think much of the person making such claims.

Kcits (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 I wonder if I will read articles here again

But I havent suggested any such thing, that seeming is only in your own mind.

Dont think this is some mental exorcise that can be won by a battle of facts, faith is not facts. Thats so called science that is full of things taken on faith because they cant be proven or demonstrated.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 I wonder if I will read articles here again

But I havent suggested any such thing, that seeming is only in your own mind.

Re-read your own comments, out of 22 comments, you’ve mentioned hell or eternal punishment(torture really, ‘punishment’ implies justification) in some form 9 or 10 times, so about half.

art guerrilla (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 I wonder if I will read articles here again

you run with a pack who CONSTANTLY -but with a cheery smile, so its -you know- okay!- defile, defame, and degrade others not of their faith and/or atheists, and WE are the nasty ones ? ? ?
here, i’ve got a reference for you: let he who is without sin cast the first stone…

evidently, you xtians -and other fundies- are totally without sin, because you seem FAR MORE interested in the internal lives and thoughts of OTHERS, than your own moral lives…

art guerrilla
aka ann archy
eof

Kcits (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 I wonder if I will read articles here again

@art guerrilla (profile), Aug 31st, 2013 @ 3:48am

I was wondering when someone would pull out a part of scripture, out of context and try and use it. Your quote is meant to teach against hypocrisy. Not a rule to never point out the sin of others and call them to repent. You also seem to not have read the posts where I call myself a sinner, which I am. All men are sinners. Only Christians have repented of the sin we do, and trust in Christs work of redemption.

Stolen from Yahoo says:

Re: Re: Re:10 I wonder if I will read articles here again

Arrrr matey…

“You’re taking it out of context,” is code for “I can’t easily explain away this morally reprehensible passage and still justify my claim that I believe in an all loving, perfectly good God, so I’ll just accuse you of not understanding the passage. Then I’ll quote some warm fuzzy passage that validates my opinions out of context in order to chase away the doubt demons you’ve implanted in my mind. John 3:16, and all that fluffy crap.”

Kcits (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11 I wonder if I will read articles here again

No, taking it out of context means that someone is taking a few words from a paragraph and suggesting they mean something different than if the words were read with that paragraph. An example. Taking “Vengance is mine” from Romans 12:9 and saying that the Bible teaches that I can hurt those that do evil to me. When if someone reads the whole section it says that people should not get back at people, God will take care of it.
In the post by art guerrilla he was using “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” to try and say it proves people should not point out the sins of others. That section
is found in John 8. It is dealing not with pointing out that others have sinned, but that we should not do bodily harm to others because of sins. No one here is inflicting physical harm on anyone.

Kcits (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 I wonder if I will read articles here again

@AzureSky (profile), Aug 30th, 2013 @ 1:29pm

I am a sinful human who by Gods grace has been shown the error of my ways. God is Holy, he isnt sinful and hates sin. He therefore tells me how to live the correct life, not that I am capable of doing it perfectly. But the act of trying limits the sin I do commit.
As for knowing God, I know what he has written in His Word though my flesh doesnt always like being told what it contains.
The simple rationalizations of the video are quite funniny in the way they are wrong.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6 I wonder if I will read articles here again

That’s the point of the law. To show you that its impossible for sinful man to follow it. All men sin, even Christans. Thats you need Gods help.

Galations 5:21-22
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Kcits says:

Re: Re: Re:6 I wonder if I will read articles here again

That’s the point of the law. To show you that its impossible for sinful man to follow it. All men sin, even Christans. Thats you need Gods help.

Galations 5:21-22
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re: I wonder if I will read articles here again

If I had a button available to me which would instantly exterminate every “person of faith” on this planet…I’d push it. And you should not object: after all, you’d get to meet the precious, pathetic “god” of your death cult (the proper description of just about all contemporary religions) sooner rather than later. So it’s a win-win sort of thing.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2 I wonder if I will read articles here again

The romans tried something like that for a long time. It only made christianity stronger.

And i find your lack of faith pathetic and sad as well, but i don’t want to kill you for it. I just pity you and your senseless existence. Must really suck to live a void life.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 I wonder if I will read articles here again

While the AC above went way beyond acceptable, I wouldn’t be so sure that christianity is so invincible, as while violence may not pose much of a threat to most religions(and in fact most thrive from it), new ideas, ways of thinking, and increasing ability for people to communicate and share ideas and thoughts with people they’d otherwise never know does indeed present a threat to established religions, by allowing more people to question the claims presented.

Also, just to put things in perspective, and to show what such a claim looks like from the other side, saying that someone’s life is a ‘void life’ just because they don’t believe in a deity, is like saying that someone’s life must be empty because they don’t believe in say, invisible garden gnomes. You don’t need a belief in a deity to have a full and fulfilling life, and to claim otherwise is just mistaken.

Kcits (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 I wonder if I will read articles here again

Wrong,

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is not some facts that can be proved to someone. You cant convince someone to believe in God with facts. That just plays into the hands of an atheist who thinks everything must be seen and proved or else they will not believe it. But it isnt my role to prove to you anything. I cant make you believe, I cant make you do anything.
But there are some facts. All people are sinful. We each have committed sin, if nothing else if you have either held anger against another or even thought badly of your parents you have broken God’s law. Because of that you are on your way to hell when you die. We all are. Only those that believe that Christ suffered and died to pay the penalty for those sins will not go to hell.
But I cant make you believe those things. It isnt just saying “I Believe!” but actually believing its true and trusting in it. Otherwise you toss away the free gift and spit on it.

Gwiz (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 I wonder if I will read articles here again

But there are some facts. All people are sinful. We each have committed sin, if nothing else if you have either held anger against another or even thought badly of your parents you have broken God’s law.

But that isn’t fact.

If I don’t happen to believe in god’s law then I wouldn’t believe those things are sins, therefore no one would be a sinner.

Only those that believe that Christ suffered and died to pay the penalty for those sins will not go to hell.

Ahh, but there’s a lot of different religions that say that if you don’t believe the way we do you are going to hell. Logically that would mean everyone is going to hell, right?

AzureSky (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 I wonder if I will read articles here again

logic is the biggest enemy of faith and religion.

every athiest I know who started christian turned after reading the bible fully, NO christian I know or have known has actually read the thing cover to cover…not a single one…

they have read the “good parts” in bible study’s but never the full book..

Kcits (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 I wonder if I will read articles here again

@AzureSky (profile), Aug 30th, 2013 @ 1:35pm

I have read it through a number of times, and studied in a seminary for 3 years. I am still a Christian.

Logic can be a tool of the devil who makes some people believe that they are smarter than they are. Remember pride commes before a fall.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is not some facts that can be proved to someone. You cant convince someone to believe in God with facts. That just plays into the hands of an atheist who thinks everything must be seen and proved or else they will not believe it. But it isnt my role to prove to you anything. I cant make you believe, I cant make you do anything.

art guerrilla (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 I wonder if I will read articles here again

so, you’re not armed ? ? ?
’cause, if you have a gun, a person will ‘believe’ whatever you want them to believe…

that is generally how a lot of religionists have gotten people to ‘believe’ their Big Sky Daddy stories…

another favorite tactic, is to take unformed children and indoctrinate them in the cult their parents are in, they are powerless to resist, and don’t know any better…

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9 I wonder if I will read articles here again

You call them sins. That’s your belief, not mine. I will tell you a thousand times you are wrong, you will tell me you are not. That is the basis of faith. I won’t try to deter you from your beliefs, but your preaching is you doing exactly that.

Religion is highly personal. Keep it to yourself.

Kcits (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 I wonder if I will read articles here again

Gwiz (profile), Aug 30th, 2013 @ 10:26am

“But that isn’t fact.
If I don’t happen to believe in god’s law then I wouldn’t believe those things are sins, therefore no one would be a sinner.”

Nice try, but all people have sinned, it matters not if you think so or not. In the end you will burn in hell for even sinning once in your life. Ignorance of the law is no exception in a human court, on judgement day it will be even less of an excuse.
Ahh, but there’s a lot of different religions that say that if you don’t believe the way we do you are going to hell. Logically that would mean everyone is going to hell, right?

No because all other religions of the world teach works righteousness. In other words you have to do a work to gain Gods favor and earn your salvation. They all do except Christianity. The works may be different but they are all earn your way to heaven plans. But you cant give something to a creator, they created everything, they need nothing from may. Therefore Christianity free gift sets it apart from other religions and proves it to be the only true one.
But this is a product of faith. Faith isnt facts and no amount of twisting and logic manipulations will convince me that God is not real or that Christianity is not the one true path. You may think your post was funny. I seriously doubt you will be thinking that when hell’s flames burn you forever for the blasphemy it contains.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 I wonder if I will read articles here again

In the end you will burn in hell for even sinning once in your life.

If it keeps me from sharing space with the psychotic, narcissistic, monstrous sociopath you appear to worship, I’d say I’d be getting the better end of the deal. Anyone sadistic enough, cruel enough, and so without any shred of mercy or decency, who tortures via proxy someone forever for a single act, no matter how vile, is not someone I’d care to spend eternity or even a day around.

But you cant give something to a creator, they created everything, they need nothing from may. Therefore Christianity free gift sets it apart from other religions and proves it to be the only true one.

Except, your own words prove that to be a lie. That ‘free’ gift you’re talking about is anything but free, as you keep going on and on about ‘worship my god or burn in hell’, and something you have to pay for, is by definition not free.

Kcits (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 I wonder if I will read articles here again

@That One Guy (profile), Aug 30th, 2013 @ 3:58pm

Yet another person who thinks they can win some kind of argument and prove that God does not exist. Your wasting your time.
You wont spend any part of eternity near God, but in the torments of Hell. Thats what we all deserve because of the sin we do.
There is no work or price asked of God, only that you accept that he is there and has paid the price for your sin. By denying that He exists you deny what He has done for you. After all you cant receive something from someone you say doesn’t exist. Faith receives what God offers to sinful mankind.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 I wonder if I will read articles here again

Yeah, that’s not how it goes, I don’t have to ‘prove god doesn’t exist’ you have to prove that he does, and threats of burning for eternity if I don’t follow your religion doesn’t exactly make for a compelling argument, but rather comes across as nothing more than a weak attempt to scare people into following your religion.

For the life of me, I just cannot figure out what you get out of the self-flagellation, the strident belief that humans are such terrible beings that they deserve to burn and suffer for eternity, and it’s only due to the ‘forgiving’ nature of a master/god that saves you(from that god/master’s wrath).

I mean, I get that some people enjoy humiliation(I don’t understand why, but I know it’s out there), enjoy being told how ‘bad’ they are, but to take it so far as to honestly think that humanity as a whole is so wretched that they deserve eternal torture seems to go just a titch overboard.

Common theist misconception, but you cannot ‘deny’ something that you don’t believe exists. I don’t believe in the loch-ness monster, but that doesn’t mean I ‘deny’ the loch-ness monster, it simply means I lack evidence for it’s existence such that I don’t believe that it exists. Same thing with the christian god, I have yet to see compelling evidence to suggest that he/it does exist, and so therefor I default to the position of assuming he/it doesn’t, no ‘denying’ involved.

Kcits (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 I wonder if I will read articles here again

@That One Guy (profile), Aug 30th, 2013 @ 10:25pm

You seem to be under some strange idea that this is a debate and you can win it. All you have to do is stick to some so called facts and you can win the battle of faith. That you can avoid the fact that all people are sinners and eventually if they die in their sins they will go to hell.

I dont have to prove anything to you. I dont have to win any debate. Faith isnt won in a debate. No one can make you believe by winning an argument in which you continue to resist one simple fact. All have sinned.

So go ahead and fill up pages of arguments. All that will happen is I will still believe and if you do not repent you will go to hell.

Kcits (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 I wonder if I will read articles here again

In the old testament the word can be translated as hell, grave or the pit as Hebrew isn’t a precise language in when dealing with the word. But your idea that it can only mean the two meanings you supply is wrong and will not fit into such passages as Deuteronomy 32:22 or Job 11:8 which contrasts heaven and hell. There are numerous passages like that.
You also have chosen to only deal with the old testament as the new was written in Greek and has a few words translated as hell. One is αδης or hades. In Luke 16:23 and forward we read that the rich man was in αδης or hades in torment of the flames.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6 I wonder if I will read articles here again

I dont think I really have to convince anyone that they have done no wrong in their lifetime. Commit one sin and thats enough. Lie, cheat, hate, lust steal, just once and your on the road to hell. Evan as a child, even in your heart. Wanting to steal is just as much of a sin as doing it. Thinking about sex with that person your not married to is just as bad as doing it.
I am just letting you know if you repent of these things and have true repentance not just say it with the hope that just saying it and not being sorry will work, it wont. Trust in Christ , that he paid the penalty for the sins, and thats real trust, not just saying it but not believing it. You will have forgiveness for those sins.

Sheogorath (profile) says:

Re: Re: I wonder if I will read articles here again

Too right. I recall reading in the Bible that Jesus died to save us all from our sins, so if you choose to use the free will I believe God gave you and not follow any religion, I don’t think you’ll be condemned for it. I’m a non-denominational Christian and believe most current Christians would be happy as such, but I won’t force anyone to change their beliefs unlike some.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: I wonder if I will read articles here again

“Faith” is for ignorant assholes. No one of quality or value engages in such nonsense — only inferior primates with their laughable gods. They deserve to be mocked, humiliated, bullied, persecuted, and repressed: they have no human rights because they’re not human.

I look forward to the day when your kind is finally extinct: you do not deserve the privilege of living on my planet.

Bruce Gerencser (profile) says:

Re: Re: I wonder if I will read articles here again

Little hyperbolic don’t you think? I am an atheist, but I recognize there are many fine, decent people of faith. Yes, I reject their notion that there is a god. However, if faith helps them get through the day and gives them peace, who am I to object? It matters not that it is true. As long as they keep their religion out of the government and our laws, I am quite indifferent to what people believe about God.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re: I wonder if I will read articles here again

Yes but for someone to ‘decide’ that X religion is correct despite there being zero evidence FOR religion and many examples of failed/defunct religions means anyone who can randomly just ‘decide’ something is true without anything backing that up could just as well decide tomorrow that ‘god’ wants them to start skinning and eating their neighbours.
(and there are religions that teach this).

Anyone who can just believe something like this should be treat in the same manner as those with other recognized mental illness / delusionary states.

Kcits (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 I wonder if I will read articles here again

I posted this above, but it fits your post as well.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is not some facts that can be proved to someone. You cant convince someone to believe in God with facts. That just plays into the hands of an atheist who thinks everything must be seen and proved or else they will not believe it. But it isnt my role to prove to you anything. I cant make you believe, I cant make you do anything.
But there are some facts. All people are sinful. We each have committed sin, if nothing else if you have either held anger against another or even thought badly of your parents you have broken God’s law. Because of that you are on your way to hell when you die. We all are. Only those that believe that Christ suffered and died to pay the penalty for those sins will not go to hell.
But I cant make you believe those things. It isnt just saying “I Believe!” but actually believing its true and trusting in it. Otherwise you toss away the free gift and spit on it.

Kcits (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 I wonder if I will read articles here again

You cant receive something from someone you deny exists. You deny the gift when you deny the existence of God who wants to give it to you. There is no ultimatum. You cant make yourself believe in God. It isn’t just saying “I Believe” There is no magic words to save you from the sin we all commit. You actually have to believe, and for some people they have hardened their harts so much they may never believe.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 I wonder if I will read articles here again

As noted above, you cannot deny that which you do not believe exists in the first place.

Besides, if your god is so eager to give people this ‘gift’ of not being tortured for eternity, why does he care whether people believe in him or not? If he was truly as merciful and forgiving as most religious individuals claim, then he’d be willing to spare anyone and everyone such a monstrous fate, from those that wholeheartedly believed in him, right down to those that anger him with their actions on a daily basis. No one deserves eternal suffering, I don’t care how atrocious their mortal lives are, and the only kind of individual that would subject someone to infinite suffering for finite crimes, would be a sadist without compare.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 I wonder if I will read articles here again

Yeah, or I could just ignore your master in the sky, and get on with my life as normal, and should I be wrong when I die, and he is as you characterize him, I’ll choose hell willingly to avoid eternity with a monster like him, and the people like you who think his actions are acceptable.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 I wonder if I will read articles here again

Actually I’ll rephrase that, I won’t be choosing anything other than saying ‘No’ when it’s demanded that I kneel, it would be your crazy master that will be choosing to send me to be tortured, as apparently the whole ‘forgiveness’ thing is well beyond him.

Seriously, it would be as simple as ‘well, you’ve done some stuff I don’t agree with, but I’m a benevolent person, so I’ll forgive you’, something which children can manage, but not your all powerful god apparently.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8 I wonder if I will read articles here again

@That One Guy (profile), Aug 31st, 2013 @ 1:56pm

I dont think that will work. You will probably be needing a change of underwear.

But if you are so sure you can endure the fires of hell try this little experiment. Go to the stove if you have a gas one and turn it on. If not get a cheap butane lighter. Turn the stove on or light the lighter. Now take one of your fingers and hold it in the flame as long as you can. Most people will last a few seconds perhaps. Now imagine that its happening all over you and you cant stop it. That is the path you are on.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9 I wonder if I will read articles here again

So, convert/worship out of fear then, lest you spend eternity toasty? That’s called Pascal’s Wager, and it has been soundly debunked, so nice try, but no thanks.

Also, as I already pointed out below, camp-fire level scary stories and/or threats to get people to obey don’t work so well on adults, and any religion that has fear and threats as it’s motivation to join is one worshiping little more than a sadist or thug.

Kcits (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 I wonder if I will read articles here again

No, Pascal’s Wager says that because of fear you hypocritically say you believe, and then try and seek after God. That would not work, fear is not a good motivator and true faith must exist not just hypocritically saying you do. But dont let what Pascal’s Wager says stop you from applying it wrongly, I like it when people do that.

The response you are replying to isnt trying to make someone fear but debunking the idea that they could tough it out in hell. Most people cant stand flame for more than a few seconds.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11 I wonder if I will read articles here again

Seems like a lot of people have hell mixed up with the lake of fire. They are two completely different things. If hell is this big fiery place, what then is the lake of fire and why would it exist?
Also, the Bible says that death and hell will be thrown into the lake of fire. It also says that death will be destroyed. If death is thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed, is there any reason to believe that hell, which is thrown into the same place, will not be?

Kcits (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 I wonder if I will read articles here again

Yet another post of yours trying to make fun of the road to hell you find yourself on if you have sinned once and have not repented.
If you claim you have not sinned once in your life then you might want to look closer at the past. Have you lied, cheated, stole, lusted, coveted, hated or done anything against your fellow man in your life, even just thinking about it? Then you have sinned.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: I wonder if I will read articles here again

Yeah no, some of the worst atrocities in history came about because a particular group was considered ‘less than human’, and the very idea that belief, whether you think it’s correct or not, is enough to disqualify someone as a person is obscene in the extreme.

Disagree with them if you must, but don’t do so by acting just as bad as the worst examples from their side, and you never get to claim that someone is any less human simple because you don’t like them or what they believe in.

Kcits (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 I wonder if I will read articles here again

@AzureSky (profile), Aug 30th, 2013 @ 1:38pm
Then they are not Christians for a true Christian would pray for your conversion and follow this passage.

Instead, “If your enemies are hungry, feed them. If they are thirsty, give them something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals of shame on their heads.”*

art guerrilla (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 I wonder if I will read articles here again

bwa ha ha ha haaaaa

not only no true scotsman, but no true scotsman xtians ! ! !

what a joke, for someone who disdains ‘logic’ and ‘rational thinking’ in the context of religion, you sure do use your fatally flawed version of it (albeit in a closed system) to attempt to ‘convince’ others of their flawed thinking…

yep, any xtian (which begs the question: there is no defining rules for claiming to be a xtian: YOU JUST SAY YOU ARE… you’re bullshit ‘definition’ of whoever you don’t think is a good xtian, is therefore not a xtian, is a sort of arrogance you are unable to see…

self-awareness is not a strongpoint of religionists…

art guerrilla
aka ann archy
eof

Kcits (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 I wonder if I will read articles here again

@art guerrilla (profile), Aug 31st, 2013 @ 4:01am

Logic, twisted by the sin in man is no help. You cant win an argument and convince people to believe. Just as you cant win some point and make me not believe. All you are doing is making it harder to admi you are the sinner and there is only one way off the path to hell..

All people are sinners. Repent of your sins today. Trust in Christs work of redemption.

John Fenderson (profile) says:

Re: I wonder if I will read articles here again

“Believing” something as a hedge bet against punishment in the afterlife is the ultimate in hypocrisy. It’s not actually believing at all, it’s trying to game the system.

If there is a Christian hell, pretending that you’re Christian to avoid it will fail, by definition.

Kcits (profile) says:

Re: and now we come to religion...

That is a rather warped view of faith and is not what the Bible teaches at all. That some have in the past said and done something like it is sad. They were not following Gods word. Christ has this to say about people like that.

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Gwiz (profile) says:

Re: Re: and now we come to religion...

Personally, I would rather turn to the words of Buddha for inspiration and guidance as opposed to bible quotes:

“Don’t blindly believe what I say. Don’t believe me because others convince you of my words. Don’t believe anything you see, read, or hear from others, whether of authority, religious teachers or texts. Don’t rely on logic alone, nor speculation. Don’t infer or be deceived by appearances.”

“Do not give up your authority and follow blindly the will of others. This way will lead to only delusion.”

“Find out for yourself what is truth, what is real. Discover that there are virtuous things and there are non-virtuous things. Once you have discovered for yourself give up the bad and embrace the good.”

“We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world.”

“Establish your mind as necessary for knowledge and remembrance. Establish a mind free of grasping to anything.”

– The Buddha

Kcits (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: and now we come to religion...

@Gwiz (profile), Aug 30th, 2013 @ 11:36am

If you really put faith in those words and you are not simply posting them because they sound good and you hope they make you look good on a forum.

Well, I feel sorry for you and I will pray that you become a Christian before you die and burn in hell for all eternity.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 and now we come to religion...

You are aware that you’re talking with grown men and women right? The fire and brimstone hell thing may work to scare little children into obedience, but it doesn’t work so well on people who can actually think, as adults tend to be past the ‘boogieman in the closet’ stage.

Kcits (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 and now we come to religion...

@That One Guy (profile), Aug 30th, 2013 @ 4:11pm

I am well aware I am most likely dealing with sin hardened adults who are on the road to hell of their own choosing. Perhaps one will be converted down the road after God has used the law over time. Sometimes its not one chop of an ax that cuts down the tree but a thousand little cuts.
After all I was thinking close to the same thing in my 30’s, living a life full of sin, but the Lord guided me back to the church.

art guerrilla (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 and now we come to religion...

can you be sure, monotheist ?
was it the father, the son or the holy ghost ? ? ?

(where did this ‘holy ghost’ crap come from ? ? ? do you have a reference for that ? ? ?) snort

as an aside, i have yet to see an explanation where this tri-partite god thing came from… which one is the biggest god, god i presume ? ? ?

Gwiz (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 and now we come to religion...

“Find out for yourself what is truth, what is real”. Don’t tell me what to do, Mr. Buddha. I don’t blindly believe what you say.

Lol. You might have missed the “Don’t rely on logic alone.” part, but I’ll answer you logically anyways:

If you have discovered for yourself that Buddha’s words are the in fact the truth and are real to you, then you are no longer “blindly following”, are you?

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