Hollywood's Kinder, Gentler DRM: UltraViolet, Getting Slammed In Reviews
from the shocker dept
Remember UltraViolet? This was Hollywood’s plan for a new, kinder, gentler DRM for movies that would try to provide some additional features. Or, rather, it would (oh so generously) grant you back just a few rights that anyone could get with an unauthorized version of a file… and you were supposed to thank them for this. As we noted at the time, what consumer problem does UltraViolet actually solve? The answer is absolutely none. It only attempts (and fails) to solve a perceived studio problem. Meaning that it was destined to piss off customers.
And that’s exactly what’s happening.
Jeff Malfant points us to an amusingly satirical Wired article, pretending to be from the studios’ vantage point about UltraViolet:
UltraViolet will make purchasing a movie only slightly more of a pain in the ass than searching BitTorrent. Driving to a local video store and buying a copy on DVD or Blu-ray should only take about a half-hour more than downloading it, and I want to assure you that the legitimate copy will contain all the ads, auto-loading trailers and overproduced menu screens that even the pirates can?t figure out how to include.
Once you?ve bought it, all you?ll have to do is take the time to register it and give us whatever information we decide we need. We know pirates don?t have to do that, but we think you?ll find it fun. It?s sort of like Facebook, only instead of friends and family, you have a humongous powerful group of international corporations hanging on your every datum.
Once you?ve signed in, that?s when the fun begins. You see, the movies you paid for with your own money will be stored for you in your ?locker.? Just like the lockers you use at school or the gym, they?ll be convenient, somewhat secure, they won?t actually belong to you and we can do anything we want with anything in them.
Let the pirates have their boring old ?hard drives? and ?networked media servers.? With UltraViolet, you?ve got a locker!
But even more telling, as sent in by Keith, are some of the user reviews popping up on Amazon that appear to totally slam UltraViolet as ridiculous and annoying:
This review does not relate to the movie, but it is focused on the ridiculous process to download the digital copy. After creating accounts for both Flixster and Ultraviolet, linking the accounts, enabling WB to view my personal information, the system hangs and doesn’t download the movie. I contacted Ultraviolet first with the issues and error messages. After a day, I was told this is not an Ultraviolet issue, but a Flixster problem. I then contacted Flixster. They responded by sending me to the FAQ. To date, I have not gotten a proper response from Flixster on the error messages. I plan on canceling both accounts and will NEVER buy another DVD tied to Ultraviolet. This is a complete rip off and WB should be ashamed of this dreadful service. Please do yourself a favor and don’t buy the movie with the digital copy. If you want a digital version, just got to iTunes.
And another:
First off I really liked the movie, if I was just rating the movie, it would probably be 3 1/2 stars, however, I have spent 4 days now trying to get this so called “digital copy”. I knew what Ultraviolet was, and I thought it had promise to be used to stream to any device not locked to just one service (itunes), but it doesn’t work. First off you have to sign into 4 different services to even get this stuff to maybe work, […] some ultraviolet site and to “manage” your collection flixster collections…when in trying to link all of these useless accounts I can no longer access the movie to stream. So I am left with a product that does not work and customer service is a joke. I have been bounced around from site to site and from rep to rep who keep telling me to do the same thing over and over again, no matter how many times I tell them what has happened and what the issue is.
This flixster ultraviolet “suckloution” is the worst ever, you are better off ripping the DVD…
And another:
Warner Brothers has really pulled a fast one with this 3D edition that was supposed to include everything with this “UltraViolet” digital copy. It’s NOT a digital copy, but rather an authorization to access a streaming video of the original cut of the movie online. This is NOT the package I pre-ordered! When I saw the commercials for the “UltraViolet” digital copy, I thought there would be some special feature– I never dreamed that special feature would be WB promising me a digital copy that I couldn’t use in iTunes EVEN THOUGH EVERY OTHER DIGITAL COPY OF A MOVIE DOES. The digital copy you do get (IF you can get the website to work!) has to be played on some kind of Adobe player THAT WILL NOT PLAY THE FILE. So you’re stuck with their online streaming swill even though you were promised a digital copy.
And there are plenty more along those lines. When will the industry finally realize that DRM doesn’t help anyone?
Filed Under: drm, reviews, ultraviolet
Comments on “Hollywood's Kinder, Gentler DRM: UltraViolet, Getting Slammed In Reviews”
If you are doing to compare DRM to bit torrent downloading, DRM will always come up short. But then again, bit torrent doesn’t have to worry about anything like being legal, or checking rights, or actually making sure that someone is using the product legally.
DRM only sucks when compared to breaking the law. Not shocking, is it?
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Point… Missed!
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And what exactly stops them from creating actually convenient service?
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stupidity and people like that guy. Oh wait thats the same problem.
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P-I-R-A-C-Y
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Care to elaborate?
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because of piracy they make systems that have no effect on piracy in an attempt to control distribution channels and then use piracy to convince legitimate customers that its the pirates fault that their movie is broken and not because they refuse to give up their monopolistic control of the supply chain and because its a fun word to yell PIRACY!
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Not to mention, the definition of piracy keeps expanding to include things that were not, and should not be, piracy (i.e. DRM circumvention for personal use), and then using those (inflated for good measure) numbers to push for, and defend new, more expansive, and more draconion anti-“piracy” laws
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I will take the time to do so. Since he placed dashes to spell the word I assume it is the acronym P.I.R.A.C.Y.
Please
Ignorant
Recording
Agency
Cut
Your…
They intentionally left the 7th word out because it would not spell anything.
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Lets compare it to other older legal alternatives then.
DVD – Cannot skip FBI Warning. Cannot skip second warning. Cannot skip third warning. I OWN THE THING!
VHS – Can fast forward through all that.
DVD – Cannot LEGALLY make ANY copy.
VHS – No restrictions on copying.
DVD – Have to sit through coming soon ads, no skipping.
VHS – Can fast forward through adds.
BLU-Ray – Will intentionally degrade the quality if you have the wrong wire.
DVD/VHS – Will always display to the best of their ability.
Old Digital Copy – Worked in iTunes and any capable device.
UltraViolet – Seems the players are more limited.
So lets see… have we been giving a better viewing experience with the increase of DRM and protectionism? The five minutes of my life wasted every time I put in a DVD and sit through unskippables says no. Then again maybe I am just a bitter old man trying to cherish every minute I can by having fun and not being annoyed, oh well.
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> The five minutes of my life wasted every time
> I put in a DVD and sit through unskippables
The other night I had a Blu-Ray that not only took over the ‘skip’ and ‘FFW’ buttons, but also disabled the ‘stop’ and even the ‘power’ buttons as well. Basically once the disk and the ads started, you couldn’t stop it short of physically yanking the power cord out of the wall and I was leery of even doing that– afraid maybe they programmed some sort of taser-like function into it that would shock me if I tried to interfere with their relentless marketing.
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This is one of the reasons I will never buy a Blu-Ray. I will stick to my DVDs.
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I prefer streaming because then I don’t have to sit through commercials every time.
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I just buy the DVD or Blu-ray and then before I’ve even watched it rip the movie off, re-encode it to either XfiD AVI or MKV and store it electronically… N
No adverts or piracy warnings for me!
But probably breaking the law in the UK.
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I don’t have to sit through commercials either. My DVD player has a special key combination that will jump right to the movie or main menu right from the start. Plus, it has another that ignores region codes.
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^WANT^
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I will never ever buy a digital file of a movie online.I will buy physical media that I then own and I will do with it whatever I feel like.If I want to I will wipe my butt with a disc !!! It is mine to play anywhere.I can bring it to a friend’s home.I can display my cool collection for guests to see.
No I will not go near DRM Digital krud ever.
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That’s cute! You think just because you possess the physical media you ‘own’ it.
Cosby was right! Kids say the darnedest things(tm)!
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What you fail to see is that you aren’t supposed to be watching movies at home.
You are supposed to be going to the cinema where you will experience the film in exactly the way the director intended.
Plus you get all the benefits of the overall “theater” experience.
oh ….. I see your problem nvm
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> You are supposed to be going to the cinema
> where you will experience the film in exactly
> the way the director intended.
You are supposed to be going to the cinema
where you will pay exactly the price
the studios intended.
> Plus you get all the benefits of the
> overall “theater” experience.
Yes. Crying babies. Ringing phones. People talking. Inability to pause to get more popcorn or empty your bladder.
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WARNING: READ ALL INSTRUCTIONS BEFORE USING
SARCASMATRON 9000: The Ultimate Sarcasm Detector
To operate: move the switch to the ON position.
This device should not be submerged in water.
Sarcasmatron Inc. does not guarantee the use of this product for any specific purpose.
This device is not subject to any warranty, guarantee, or other promise except where prohibited by law.
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re: VHS – No restrictions on copying
VHS -> Macrovision Encoding prevent / degraded copies, but also cause problems with playback on some systems.
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Oh, right, Macrovision. Even in the old VHS days, I’d forget it existed since it’s so trivial to bypass.
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Okay, wow, I had no idea that they had something like that for VHS. I stand corrected, thank you for showing me something new.
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Macrovision? What is that? We never once encountered it during our 20 years of pirating VHS tapes.
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Wow, your comment is so far off the mark, it isn’t even funny.
How does a DRM system that doesn’t work, won’t let me watch my movie and that can crash my computer a good thing for me as a consumer?
Answer, it isn’t. It is on the same level as a virus and I will purge it from my computer.
But guess what, I don’t need your concession “digital copy” I can make my own digital copy from my legally purchased DVDs and watch them on what ever device I choose. All without computer killing DRM.
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What you are suggesting is as evil as copying a vinyl record onto a cassette tape so you can hear it in your car!
(which is to say: not evil at all)
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bit torrent doesn’t have to worry about …. checking rights, or actually making sure that someone is using the product legally.
Which is of course a complete waste of time and money for all – see my comment about physical shops below.
Moral – save time and money and win friends by trusting your customers.
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It’s possible to offer media without DRM and still be profitable. Look at iTunes. They sell totally DRM-free music and they make a good amount of money off of it.
Ultraviolet is unnecessary DRM. It treats the customer like a criminal, as if using Ultraviolet is how pirates get their content. The point that this site has consistently made is that users will pay for content as long as the money is right and the product is easy to use. Ultraviolet fails miserably at the “easy to use” part.
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” Look at iTunes. They sell totally DRM-free music and they make a good amount of money off of it. “
It’s a little different, don’t you think? iTunes makes money on every sale, technically. Their costs for content are fixed per unit, not a large number that they have to recoup to break even. If they sell for $1, they make 10 cents profit, and it’s a nice day. A movie company that sunk 50 million into a movie and sells it for $1 still has a long way to go to make a profit.
iTunes compares well to a retail store, but not to the producer.
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You’re talking price points. That has nothing to do with DRM or no DRM.
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“Their costs for content are fixed per unit”
Some of which is direct revenue for the content producer.
“not a large number that they have to recoup to break even”
So, iTunes was free to set up? You seem to confuse marginal and fixed costs, yet again.
“A movie company that sunk 50 million into a movie and sells it for $1 still has a long way to go to make a profit.”
Did he say that the price of a movie had to be the same as a single song on iTunes? Does “no DRM” suddenly mean that it can’t be sold for more (despite being realistically more valuable than DRMed product)?
“iTunes compares well to a retail store, but not to the producer.”
So, now you’re saying that producers of content don’t make money from things sold in retail stores? Or is it that revenue from retail suddenly doesn’t matter once the store’s digital?
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You do have a point; it would be stupid for the content-producers to try to sell the product and take all that risk.
So, why not let someone else take that risk? Someone like, say, iTunes?
All your comparisons assumes that selling DRM-free digital copies is going to DECREASE sales, when in fact it would most likely do the opposite.
Or in other words; how can you make more money by NOT selling your product at all?
(The product in this case being an actually usable digital copy of the movie)
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When I belatedly found out about the DRM on iTunes music years ago, I went to DRM-free Amazon and spent my money there instead. I’ve yet to buy anything from iTunes since, even though they dropped DRM. Haven’t bought from EA since they used Securom in 2007, won’t buy from Ubisoft with their insane DRM schemes, won’t buy Blu-Ray anything nor anything with SONY on it (a division of SONY created Securom).
DRM = actual lost sales here. It is a dealbreaker.
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Because that would mean that *gasp* someone other than the movie studio would be making money! And that’s even *worse* than filesharing!
Think about it – the movie industry thinks that filesharing costs them money… if someone else is making money, then not only is it costing the studios money (because the file is being transferred over the network), but they’re losing *even more* money because the consumer is paying for it! It’s like a double-whammy!
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I think you’ll find that this DRM sucks even compared to perfectly legal DVD (or even VHS) copies purchased from the manufacturer. Moreover, it sucks compared to just not watching the stupid movie and doing something productive or even just lying in a hammock.
DRM sucks full stop. And you know who it sucks for? The customer who makes the decision to legally purchase the item.
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I find your comment less useful and to the point than “first!”.
How about comparing it to legally downloading your movie without DRM?
Besides, if you actually read the article you’d have seen it suck on so many levels it might as well be a black hole.
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“DRM only sucks when compared to breaking the law. Not shocking, is it?”
Back before the RIAA decided to stop being idiots and trying to enforce it on music, I chose to buy music only from non-DRM outlets like eMusic or to legally rip CDs I owned.
DRM sucked completely because I couldn’t even choose which device to play my music back on with DRMed files (which I why I didn’t buy them).
Which law, pray tell, was I breaking by listening to my non-sucky, non-DRMed files?
You fail. Again. One day, you will stop your idiot assumptions and join the rest of us in reality…
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DRM only sucks when compared to actually providing a service, or product.
FTFY.
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DRM only sucks when compared to breaking the law. Not shocking, is it?
DRM is supposed to stop people from breaking the law. DRM is not effective.
so if the DRM technology doesn’t do what you want it to do (which is prevent illegal downloads) AND it makes your legitimate customers angry (and possibly increases illegal downloads) then why bother with the DRM technology in the first place.
paying for media is optional. people pay you because they feel they should, not because they have to. crappy services that limit choice and features erode that feeling of obligation that your revenue model is based on. this is the essential point that media companies cannot grasp.
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Umm, no. DRM only sucks compared to no DRM. There is no connection with breaking the law. If the studios wanted to, they certainly could provide a way to legally purchase the movie without DRM.
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Yeah, DRM stops customers from doing all those illegal things like trying to watch THE MOVIE THEY PURCHASED!!!
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DRM sucks in any case, even when not compared to pirating. Your statement is like me saying that having a dick in my mouth is annoying but at least its not in my ass. I prefer dicks not being in any of my orifices, thank you very much.
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Sure DRM comes up short when compared to torrenting. Hilariously enough it looks like DRM comes up short when compared to not buying the movie. From the reviews it looks like buyers wasted time and money and got something unusable. They were better off not buying the product. When you destroy the value of the product before selling it. Well, you’re doing it wrong.
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I PAY for my movies, dammit, and I want to be able to watch them on my PS3, XBOX, Android phone, or any other device I happen to own. If I rip the movie (illegal, even if it is fair use!), I can use it on any device. This is not about piracy…its about the movie industry failing to realize that any and all efforts to stem piracy hurt not the pirates, but the legitimate customers who purchase their products. Wake up and get a friggin clue!
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No, DRM sucks when compared to an open copy, with a passphrase to download it…
Real Physical shops
Real Physical shops have been moving in the opposite direction. 100 years ago you went into a shop and had to ask for each item from an assistant. It meant you could never shoplift – but it was expensive and time consuming. SO the shops put the stuff on the customer’s side of the counter – and you collected it and took it to the assistant before paying. This was quicker – and even though it was now more possible to steal (though not that easy because the assistant could see the whole shop) the shops still felt that it was worth it overall for the increased sales and reduced payroll.
Next came the supermarket – which streamlined the process even further – though it did make shoplifting easier – but guess what – the shops still found it was better for them and swallowed the losses in return for more sales and lower wage costs.
Finally we progressed to the system in my local Waitrose – where the store lets you do the scanning and only checks up on you once in a blue moon. Now stealing would be even easier – and can even be done accidentally – but the store still thinks it’s worthwhile for them.
Moral of the story ?
Trust your customers – just like the MPAA don’t.
Re: Real Physical shops: try your example in a /jewelry/ store.
Or anywhere are Ipads or portable computers. Doesn’t work there, see? You’re only exampling for /cheap/ goods, and thanks to industry and petroleum, most goods actually are cheaper now.
Re: Re: Real Physical shops: try your example in a /jewelry/ store.
How does that help your point? Are you trying to say that digital files of movies and music are not cheap goods? I’m just confused.
Re: Re: Re: Real Physical shops: try your example in a /jewelry/ store.
It’s best not to think about it too much, OOTB’s logic may collapse your mind into a singularity and destroy the rest of the planet with it.
Re: Re: Re:2 Real Physical shops: try your example in a /jewelry/ store.
@ el_segfaulto (profile), Oct 26th, 2011 @ 8:31am
It’s best not to think about it too much, OOTB’s logic may collapse your mind into a singularity and destroy the rest of the planet with it.
——————
There’s a clear pattern of NOT thinking here at Techdirt, all right. It’s the only way one can adhere to Mike’s views.
Re: Re: Re:3 Real Physical shops: try your example in a /jewelry/ store.
“There’s a clear pattern of NOT thinking here at Techdirt, all right.”
Yeah but if you stop posting nonsense to every article and pretending you know what you are talking about a lot of that will go away
Re: Re: Re:3 Real Physical shops: try your example in a /jewelry/ store.
And you still haven’t explained how your first post relates in any way to the subject we’re discussing.
Re: Re: Re:4 Real Physical shops: try your example in a /jewelry/ store.
that cause it doesn’t. Didn’t you notice either an unrelated or technically clueless post or rant and he will follow that till enough people are telling him how stupid what he said was then he will start over. The more valid your complaint with his statement the more likely he will respond to someone else or make a new thread,
Re: Re: Re: Real Physical shops: try your example in a /jewelry/ store.
Of course they aren’t. It costs a few cents to make a cheap plastic widget or doodad. It may cost 50 billion dollars to make a movie! Does that sound cheap to you?
Re: Re: Re:2 Real Physical shops: try your example in a /jewelry/ store.
actually based in the imdb avatar cost 600 millons, and if you see that you can use internet(which is global), movie theater, dvd and other stuff, i think selling at 1 dollar world wide can make you enough money to get at leat 600 millon dollars
Re: Re: Re:3 Real Physical shops: try your example in a /jewelry/ store.
Even if they made 50% on each sale, they would have to sell to 1.2 BILLION people, as in 1 seventh of the world, or nearly every family on the planet to get their money back….WITHOUT profit.
Re: Re: Re: Real Physical shops: try your example in a /jewelry/ store.
@ Allomancer (profile), Oct 26th, 2011 @ 8:23am
How does that help your point? Are you trying to say that digital files of movies and music are not cheap goods? I’m just confused.
—————
Music (to make) IS cheap goods; movies (to make) are NOT. It’s at least a million to one ratio, can’t be ignored. The old Itunes example was trotted out somewhere.
Re: Re: Re:2 Real Physical shops: try your example in a /jewelry/ store.
But you’re not trying to sell it for several millions, you sell a movie for 10-20 bucks.
Re: Re: Re:2 Real Physical shops: try your example in a /jewelry/ store.
Good films can still be made on the cheap. I’ve seen more fan made and truly independent films posted to YouTube with lower budgets and higher quality than I have seen coming out of Hollywood. It is almost guaranteed the comments section of those films, people will ask, “How come Hollywood can’t make something this good?”
A lot of people have this incorrect assumption that higher budget equates to higher quality. With good writing, good direction, and a supportive fan base, you can spend under $10,000 and use that to bring in success.
Re: Re: Re:3 Real Physical shops: try your example in a /jewelry/ store.
$10,000 is rather cheap, but many great films (including most best picture winners) can be made for less than $20 million. Budget has nothing to do with quality, and the consumer won’t be hurt if Hollywood starts making cheaper films. You don’t see other countries spending $200 million to make a movie. It’s purely a Hollywood thing.
Re: Re: Re:4 Real Physical shops: try your example in a /jewelry/ store.
This is what kills me.
Love Actually 2003 – budget, 47.7 million, gross, 249 million
The Proposal 2009 – budget, 40 million, gross, 163 million
Two “rom-coms” both good money makers but one cost 7 million more than the other. What is the real difference? Also, both spent most of their cash building sound stages for filming. Love Actually has several scenes in an airport and they are all faked. The Proposal filmed in a real office but then had to do a re-shoot so they replicated the entire office on a sound stage. WTF?
The problem is the movie business is run like a fraternity. A bunch of dudes want their friends to get into the business so they throw money around and hire people that just stand around or occasionally paint a backdrop but nobody cares because almost every movie makes a huge profit.
In reality the vast majority of movies (including special effects) could be made for a under 10 million dollars. But first they would need to start running it like an actual business where there are accounting practices, budgets, compromises on spending, etc.
Re: Re: Re:2 Real Physical shops: try your example in a /jewelry/ store.
You know what else is expensive? Peanut farms and fertilizer and insecticides and harvesters, and processing plants to make peanut butter, and all that shipping to get peanuts to the processing plants, and all those warehouses to store the peanut butter before it gets shipped out, and all that shipping to get the peanut butter to the stores, and the grocery stores themselves.
You know what else is not expensive? Peanut butter.
Going back to your original point, what was it again?
Re: Re: Real Physical shops: try your example in a /jewelry/ store.
Movies and music ARE the cheapest goods – by making your customers do the copying you remove all your own marginal costs.
Plus – the supermarket I am referring to sells CDs and DVDs so you fail.
Re: Real Physical shops
Anyone who has tried to pass a 30-lb. box of cat litter or a 25-lb. bag of dog food through a “you-scan” may argue that the situation in the supermarket is not necessarily an improvement, especially those who work odd hours and shop when no employees can be found.
Also, cameras cover the exits and the scanners. The supermarket doesn’t trust us or its own employees. The supermarket is just being cheap.
Re: Re: Real Physical shops
Clarification: Heavy items like cat litter have too much variance in weight for the scales at the you-scan to accept them as valid purchases. The scanner pages an employee who make take as long as five minutes to appear.
Re: Re: Re: Real Physical shops
I don’t get it, don’t you use barcodes?
Here in Sweden, you get a handheld device that you use to scan the barcodes. If it’s something where you choose how much you want to buy, i.e. fruit, you weigh it at a scale, and then you get a barcode for that item.
Then you simply pay in an unmanned register.
” Or, rather, it would (oh so generously) grant you back just a few rights that anyone could get with an unauthorized version of a file… and you were supposed to thank them for this.”
The unauthorized version shouldn’t exist, just because something isn’t packaged the way I want it packaged does not give me the right to obtain it illegally.
Just because Coke isn’t sold in 1 gallon jugs doesn’t mean I can walk into a supermarket with a 1 gallon jug and open 2 liter bottles pooring the contents into my jug. And then walk out of the supermarket with my 1 gallon jug and tell them, “well if you would have offered 1 gallon jugs I would have bought it.”
“As we noted at the time, what consumer problem does UltraViolet actually solve? The answer is absolutely none.”
It provides streaming access to the movie at no additional cost to the end user. This is an additional format option that wasn’t available to the end user before, but you’re complaining about it.
You will never be happy until the movie studios are out of business and all we are left with is indy movies. God I hate that crap, character-driven movies about whiny self-absorbed hipsters. I want huge explosions, cutting-edge special effects, and CGI that is indistinguishable from real-life footage. And yes I have seen independently produced action movies with decent special effects but they are still embarassingly subpar when compared to LOTR, Avatar, etc…
Even when the stuidos provide additional options for consumers you gripe. You’re like the little kid that throws a temper tantrum because he doesn’t get everything the way he wants it. There is no compromising with you, it’s your way or no way.
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No additional cost? Really? Okay. Maybe. Let’s say I agree. It is STILL included in the price I paid for the movie.
Of course, I should just be grateful that I’m allowed to pay for a version of the movie that may work when the stars are aligned and I sacrifice a kitten to ‘Mtumakalumba, since it’s different.
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Yes, we want you to go away. Once you are gone, things can progress. You guys make shit movies all the time, but you bash the indy industry. Once you are gone, there will be room for them to grow.
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I don’t make movies I watch them. The pirates have forced the industry’s reactionary protection mechanism (DRM) upon us. Don’t blame the movie studios or music studios, the pirates are the reason for the DRM mess.
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Baloney. The reason for DRM is that the studios are losing monopolistic control over the distribution channel. Piracy is just an excuse. If they ignored piracy completely and provided the actual value that they could provide, piracy — while it would not go away — would not cost them enough to be a problem. Assuming it costs them that much now, which I really doubt.
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No, not baloney. DRM is a direct reaction to piracy and nothing else. That is an objective fact and you’re going to have to live with it.
The rest of your post is idiotic also.
“Actual value”? A person wants to watch a movie at home. That’s the desired experience, that’s where the value lies.
End of story.
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So if DRM is only to being made to stop piracy why does it only effect customers who pay for their product and have zero effect on piracy? Piracy is either the excuse or they are insane (repeatedly doing the same thing expecting different results) either way it should stop.
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DRM is far from a mere reaction to piracy. It’s used to limit what paying customers can do (install limits), to track their hardware configurations and buying habits (online tethering), to push advertising (video game ‘launchers’, for example), to track accounts (registrations and DLC). It’s more of a control on purchased goods that lends itself to datamining than anything.
And when it gets in the way of using what you bought, it is a FAILURE that should be staked and killed.
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“end of story”
oh your stories over? So we can get back to talking about reality?
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
“…objective fact…”
I do not think that term means what you think it means.
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
Ever downloaded a movie via filesharing or from usenet or a digital locker website? Nope thought not… all the rips are just the movie and most of the DVDR’s and Blu-Ray completes are missing the anti-piracy and trailers.
The only person watching them are the people buying the bloody films!
LMAO!!!
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
Absolute bullshit. Ill give you a story about a tangential industry that has paced with the movie industry.
The video game industry started up in the early 70’s with games like Pong. It wasn’t until the first PC’s that it started to grow.
Over time the games began to be pirated as it was relatively easy. Major corporations were dumbfounded and instead of figuring out what the problem was they moved to consoles, which ended up being just as heavily pirated.
One day, a few companies decided to give people what pirates have been giving, relatively cheap and easy to obtain video games.
Those companies, like Valve and Direct2Drive, and services like the Android Market led the industry into a Second Rennaissance of video games. Games became very cheap and very easy to obtain. The PC game industry began to expand faster than ever in the history of PC gaming. Now its projected to outpace growth in console gaming.
So don’t say this bullshit that piracy is what caused DRM. DRM wasn’t necessary to stop piracy. What happened to Movie Studios was that they lost control of the distribution channel by not paying attention. The video game industry learned that lesson by seeing how stupidly asinine the movie industry was. Now video games are set to outpace the movie industry, while the movie industry is readying increase in prices to make up for the fact that people are turning to video games instead of movies for entertainment.
So no, piracy did not beget DRM. DRM was not necessary to compete with pirates, hell pirates don’t care about DRM and customers actually paid for items that were locked by DRM. DRM is to punish people for doing things that the MPAA doesnt like.
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
If you’re correct, then you’re saying that the industry is full of dolts and idiots for pursuing a harmful (to them) strategy that fails to accomplish their goals. Personally, I don’t think they’re so stupid.
What makes better sense, and is a supportable hypothesis is that the issue isn’t primarily piracy. For background, this is a good article: http://arstechnica.com/media/news/2007/01/8616.ars
That’s a dramatic oversimplification. Most consumers want more than just that. They also want to use their existing equipment. They want to be able to watch their movie from every room they have a TV in. A lot want to do this without paying a recurring cost, and without having to give up a lot of personal information. And so forth.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
“The pirates have forced the industry’s reactionary protection mechanism (DRM) upon us.”
That’s funny. DRM and regional protection is the reason a lot of people I know turned to piracy at various times…
Do you honestly think that DRM (which only affects legit customers, not pirates) will reduce piracy as opposed to, say, offering the product the customer is asking for?
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Do you really believe DRM would not exist if nobody “pirated”?
In a world where nobody “pirated”, the movie studios would still want to impose restrictions. For instance, they would love to have you pay extra to play the movie in more than one device, or play the movie more than a limited number of times.
Of course, people would still try to bypass these restrictions on the movies they bought. Remember, we are talking of a world where nobody “pirated”, so they can’t simply download a copy. The shortsighted reaction of the movie studios to people bypassing their restrictions would be the same as happened in real life: to add DRM, making their product less convenient to use.
There: we have the same DRM situation without “pirating”. Only that it’s worse, since in that world where nobody “pirates” people would not have an alternative, and thus the studios would have much less fear of a backlash.
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
Free tip: making up imaginary negative scenarios in order to try and make your point sound feasible is an epic fail.
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
Free tip: you’re retarded.
The scenario isn’t imaginary, it was exactly what was happening before the internet. Movie studios sued VHS rental places because they wanted people to buy the movie. Then they tried to stop VHS distributors from selling to rental places. It has always been about control.
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
>Free tip: making up imaginary negative scenarios in order to try and make your point sound feasible is an epic fail.
You mean like how the industry makes up numbers to show that they’re dying, yet pulling off record-breaking profits year after year?
Free tip: take your own advice; otherwise, gtfo.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Well, then studios and labels will have to do better, I hope their sales tank LoL
God knows I’m not the one giving them money.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Don’t blame the movie studios or music studios, the pirates are the reason for the DRM mess.
Bullshit. Since DRM does NOT stop piracy AT ALL it’s no their fault.
Re: Re:
if it worked as promised maybe it might be ok. thing is though this whole debacle is a classic bait and switch! also let me ask you this, why is DRM around when under the law it takes the rights of so many people away? case in point would be me wanting to make a commentary/voice over of the movie. CAN’T do that since well you can’t change it with out breaking the law! DRM IS DEFECTIVE BY DESIGN!
Re: Re:
Do you want to be in business or not? You act like responding to consumer demand is something successful businesses shouldn’t have to do. You’re free to keep everything locked-up and over-valued if you want to and you’re also free to go out of business.
Re: Re: Re:
You act like I’m IN the business. I’m a consumer who doesn’t steal content, if piracy wasn’t a concern we would have been DRM free all along. You people blame the industry for piracy the industry blames piracy for DRM.
Seems like a catch22 to me. Fight piracy and stop saying, ‘It’s the movie industry’s fault”, support efforts to fight piracy and when piracy doesn’t exist DRM will go away.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
You seem to misread the point of this article and a lot of the posts supporting it. Its not they wont give us what we want to feel free to pirate it. It is offering you paying customers a crippled service and continually treating them like criminals is not a way to compete with piracy. DRM doesn’t stop piracy it only hurts paying customers and pushes people to piracy (not that that is a good thing, but it happens), if they stop trying to stomp out piracy (which is impossible) and focus on providing useful services to paying customers they will be better off.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
> when piracy doesn’t exist DRM will go away.
Those are some magical drugs you’re taking.
For people who thnk the way these studios thinkg, there will always be DRM, even if piracy magically dropped to nothing, they’d use that as evidence of why DRM needs to stay– “See? DRM works, we put those pirates out of business. All the more reason for more and continued DRM!”
Re: Re: Re: Re:
if piracy wasn’t a concern we would have been DRM free all along
Really, then explain DVD region codes.
Re: Re:
“Just because Coke isn’t sold in 1 gallon jugs doesn’t mean I can walk into a supermarket with a 1 gallon jug and open 2 liter bottles pooring the contents into my jug. And then walk out of the supermarket with my 1 gallon jug and tell them, “well if you would have offered 1 gallon jugs I would have bought it.””
but after you buy the coke you can do whatever you want with it. Apparently buying this movie does not allow you to watch it let alone easily put it into a format you want. Following your analogy coke should have DRM(drink rights management) that if makes your pubic hair catch fire if you try to put in it glass with ice.
Re: Re: Re:
In fairness, Mountain Dew often has that effect just from drinking it.
Re: Re: Re:
I think backup copies should be allowed fair use. But taking that which does not belong to you (i.e. pirating) and then justifying it because it wasn’t offerred in the format you wanted is not rational.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
So what would the rational course of action be? Just don’t watch any movies?
Re: Re: Re: Re:
no repeatedly enforcing stricter DRM to stop piracy even though DRM has no effect on piracy and is increasing detrimental to paying customers is very rational though
Re: Re: Re: Re:
no repeatedly enforcing stricter DRM to stop piracy even though DRM has no effect on piracy and is increasing detrimental to paying customers is very rational though
Re: Re: Re:
Bad analogy:
Difference is we want coke in a gallon container. We went to the store and legally purchased 2 2liter bottles of coke. Took it to the privacy of our own home placed it in a gallon jug for our own personal consumption. We wanted coke to make gallon containers, but since they won’t, we just have a way (bought our own gallon jug and funnel) of converting it into a state where it is readily consumable. We are not slapping a coke label and freely distributing it. Just wrapping it in a package we can use.
My area doesn’t have good 3G coverage so my iPad is wifi only. This makes ultraviolet cumbersome at best, totally unusable at worst and that’s overlooking the cumbersome bug ridden drm and account management system
Re: Re:
Knock off Oakleys shouldn’t exist, but that still doesn’t stop people from buying them for $5 a pair at flea markets. I would think I have a RIGHT to copy a DVD I own to any device I own, but that is illegal. Just because a person does not have a RIGHT to something does not inherently stop them and all the crying in the world isn’t going to change human nature. What you can do though, is accept reality and find ways to discourage the behavior. Why is it so hard to comprehend the discussion of the methods that do not work in comparision to methods that have historically (and logically) work better is a good thing and not advocating the undesired behavior? You’re like the little kid that does not get that his temper tantrum does not work and so he throws a bigger one for better results. Is there subliminal messages in those million dollar special effects that implant this Beatings-Will-Continue-Until-Moral-Improves thinking?
Re: Re:
“It provides streaming access to the movie at no additional cost to the end user. This is an additional format option that wasn’t available to the end user before, but you’re complaining about it.”
Really? I have a perfectly good streaming service directly from my seedbox.. And I don’t have to worry about DRM!
There are some perfectly good legal streaming services out there, but they are being crippled by huge licensing fees, stupid restrictions etc. I can’t even get Netflix because I live in the wrong country!
If they kill the restrictions, the money I pay each month for a seedbox, for a VPN, for usenet access, etc can go to the creative industries – until then, my money goes to the services that give me the content in the most convenient way.
Let me give you another example – guess how many pirated apps I have on my Android phone? Zero – simply because I find the market way more convenient than finding torrents for them and in the majority of cases the prices are acceptable. That is not to say that I have not pirated apps on my phone – but only when I want to try them if I feel the price is a little too high – that is also a direct result of Google changing from a 24hr refund policy to a 15min refund policy!
Re: Re:
This is a completely inaccurate analogy. Much closer would me buying the 2 liter bottles and then choosing, in my own home, to pour them into a 1 gallon jug. This is something you probably think should be illegal. But wait! How about the soft drink industry opens up a special store where you can take your fizzy drink and pour it into gallon containers of their choice? Sure it might be the wrong shape to fit into your fridge where as your own gallon container fits perfectly, but you can’t have everything. As an added bonus, there is no charge for this convenience!
Re: Re: Re:
As Coke, I don’t care what you do with the Coke once you pay for it, other than copy the formula and make your own which would harm my ability to sell it.
As I have stated previous, I think you should be able to make a backup copy of a DVD in case the original media is broken or wears out. You should NOT be allowed to copy the DVD and then share it with 10 million other people.
If you don’t like the format something is offered in don’t buy it, but don’t download an illegal copy of it either.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
“As Coke, I don’t care what you do with the Coke once you pay for it, other than copy the formula and make your own which would harm my ability to sell it.”
You mean like Pepsi – or any of the hundreds of “cheap” brands of cola flavoured drinks?
Re: Re:
The gallon jug analogy is good.
Lets look at it. People aren’t pissed because they can not buy coke in a gallon jug.
They are pissed because coke only allows you to buy it in 2 liter bottles and wants to put you in jail if you buy 2 liter bottles and pour them into gallon jugs for your own convenience.
Not only are they not offering the product you want they are making it illegal to use your legally purchased product how you want to.
Re: Re:
But it does, that’s the reality. The main point that is underlying all of the posts on this subject on this site is that piracy exists, and it’s not going anywhere, so the intelligent thing for content producers to do is find a way to thrive in the face of it — and use t to advantage. Instead, the big corps are trying to engage in activities that anger their legitimate customers, trample on the rights of everyone in general, and that will do nothing to solve their problem.
Not true, unless you define “cost” as being “monetary expense.” From the reviews, it sounds like the system often doesn’t work so they aren’t even providing the streaming at all. Even when they are, the cost to the consumer sounds substantial: the cost in time, effort, aggravation, and invasion of privacy.
That’s just stupid, and the opposite of the truth. The sentiments I’ve read here from people who would like the studios to go out of business come about because the studios are actively harmful as they currently operate, and there is no sign that this will change. If they went out of business, they would certainly be replaced by businesses who can operate in a more acceptable way. The movies you like would still get produced.
Re: Re:
“Just because Coke isn’t sold in 1 gallon jugs doesn’t mean I can walk into a supermarket with a 1 gallon jug and open 2 liter bottles pooring the contents into my jug. And then walk out of the supermarket with my 1 gallon jug and tell them, “well if you would have offered 1 gallon jugs I would have bought it.””
The problem is that DRM is more like walking in a store to find the Coke is locked up and in order to buy any you need to present ID and fill out forms to buy it. So instead of doing that people walk out and go to the guy on the street corner offering it for free in the gallon jugs. The thing is people are actually willing to risk that the guy on the street could be putting anything into those jugs just so they can avoid the hassle at the store.
Re: Re: Re:
It’s more like you buy the Coke and realize when you get home you can’t get the cap off unless you login to coke.com, give them your personal info, get the unlock code and then press the secret button the cap, which may or may not get it off.
If it doesn’t come off, you can call and talk to Coca-Cola’s computers for the next two hours (you know, that two hours you were going to spend watching a movie while having a nice drink). Your time isn’t precious, but they can’t afford to pay a human being to talk to you.
So you figure you’ll just get a knife and poke a hole in the bottle, but it’s illegal to open the bottle any other way, because Coca-Cola gives millions of dollars to politicians every year and then suggests to them what the laws should be regarding bottlecaps. Just because you own it doesn’t mean you can do anything you want to it.
There’s a silver lining though – in 120 years none of those laws apply and you can open the bottle and do anything you please (provided the laws are never, ever changed between now and then).
So you say “Fuck all that!” poke a hole in the bottle and enjoy your Coke.
Re: Re:
> It provides streaming access to the movie
> at no additional cost to the end user.
No, that’s what it *claims* to do. What it *actually* does is make the user jump through a bunch of useless hoops only to ultimately find that it doesn’t work.
> This is an additional format option that
> wasn’t available to the end user before
And by all reports, still isn’t available in any practical sense.
Re: Re:
You don’t seem to realize the difference between physical limitations of scarce goods and artificial limitations placed on infinite good.
Also I’v heard Coke is sold in at least 5 different packages not counting draft options.
As for things that shouldn’t exit in this world I would probably put hunger, poverty and war before unauthorized copies of some crappy comic adaptation.
Re: Re:
“””
Just because Coke isn’t sold in 1 gallon jugs doesn’t mean I can walk into a supermarket with a 1 gallon jug and open 2 liter bottles pooring the contents into my jug. And then walk out of the supermarket with my 1 gallon jug and tell them, “well if you would have offered 1 gallon jugs I would have bought it.”
“””
But once you get the 2 liters home you can pour them into 1 gallon jugs if you want. DRM prevents you from doing what you want with the file after you bring it home.
Re: Re:
“You’re like the little kid that throws a temper tantrum because he doesn’t get everything the way he wants it. There is no compromising with you, it’s your way or no way.”
Since you seem to be confused, let me make it simple for you:
The customer is always right.
Re: Re:
The unauthorized version shouldn’t exist, just because something isn’t packaged the way I want it packaged does not give me the right to obtain it illegally.
Despite all your claims noone actually thinks it’s illegal to make an unauthorized version of a movie you already paid for. Sorry.
Okay, this is getting pathetic. When's it going to stop?
Listen up, Techdirt. I don’t mind the attacks against DRM, as they’re valid, but I’m getting pretty angry at the use of blatant crap to justify the position.
In this article, it’s those Amazon articles, which 1 minute of investigation would clearly show these reviews were written for the express purpose of being anti-DRM, not by “average consumer”.
A few tip-offs:
-Most reviews only have one review written.
-Those having just a few more (and not coincidentally tied to the “Ultraviolet” brand) spend time in other reviews complaining about DRM as well.
-“Average customer” seems to be quite content on the movie, not the DRM.
I know it’s probably a pain in the ass to actually spend a minute on every article, but I can’t stand it when people use strawmen to found an argument…
…especially when TD’s the first to attack them when they used against a position.
I would request, in the future, any reference to Amazon’s comments be taken with a grain of salt.
Better yet: don’t ever use them again. They’re worthless to both argument positions and to consumers, since most don’t even actually review the product at hand.
Just my two cents.
Now, as for the topic itself: this should be no surprise to anyone. If Disney ever gets its “Keychest” program out there, however, “Ultraviolet” will be considered a godsend.
Call it a hunch.
Re: Okay, this is getting pathetic. When's it going to stop?
“1 minute of investigation would clearly show these reviews were written for the express purpose of being anti-DRM”
So? Does being anti-DRM rather than merely anti-Ultraviolet make the concern invalid? Or, are you saying that writing a review to expressly warn would-be customers that the DRM is present and damaging is of no use?
“-“Average customer” seems to be quite content on the movie, not the DRM.””
I’m not sure what point you’re making here – it’s suspicious that a person can be positive about the movie but not the DRM? If that’s the case, well… dur. In fact, enjoying the movie would make me *less* accepting of the DRM, since its only purpose is to get in between me and my ability to watch the movie.
“I would request, in the future, any reference to Amazon’s comments be taken with a grain of salt.”
As any intelligent reader already should, since there’s no way to independently verify who wrote them.
“If Disney ever gets its “Keychest” program out there, however, “Ultraviolet” will be considered a godsend.”
So, we should be cool with this DRM because Disney have something more odious up their sleeve?
No, I’ll retain my opinions, thanks.
Re: Re: Okay, this is getting pathetic. When's it going to stop?
Post above PaulT’s sounds like those folks getting all dewey-eyed over the poor game developers when Securom was being viciously “spored” in Amazon reviews a few years ago.
This is a product that people BOUGHT. It is found to be DEFECTIVE. They are doing a service to others at point of purchase.
I’d never written an Amazon review in all the years of using the service until this very thing happened to me. The manufacturer of the product was deaf to direct complaints from paying customers. I felt compelled to give others information they would need to make an informed purchase and Amazon was how I could do it. I stopped no one from buying if they really wanted to, but at least they might have a better understanding of what they were really buying, something they wouldn’t get from any product description.
Great game! Great movie! Great whatever! BUT…are the associated problems worth your time or money?
Re: Re: Okay, this is getting pathetic. When's it going to stop?
You work for TD now, PaulT? Congratulations! 😉
Joking aside:
“So? Does being anti-DRM rather than merely anti-Ultraviolet make the concern invalid?”
My argument is about using strawmen to justify the attack on DRM, not the differences in DRM.
“I’m not sure what point you’re making here”
TD’s position is DRM is bad for consumers (no dispute), but for this particular issue, I’m not seeing consumers complaining, per a quick review of the reviews. What I’m seeing are the one-shot reviews of attacking the DRM specifically while saying nothing about the actual product in addition to.
That’s a red flag for me as a consumer. To put this more in perspective: Would you value a review of 1 star because they’re reviewing shipping and not the product?
“So, we should be cool with this DRM …”
Good point. Keychest has nothing to do with this. My apologies for the tangent. 🙂
But to be clear: I’m not upset at anyone, but the use of strawmen is something I despise in these discussions.
I should reasonably suspect people would check into this (as I did), but (and no offense to anyone in particular) some of the comments I’ve seen on this site leave me to believe any external linking is saved only when they’re done reading this site.
Re: Re: Re: Okay, this is getting pathetic. When's it going to stop?
Absolutely. If the shipping were atrocious for an excellent product, and all the reviews were 5 stars, I would call those reviews worthless as they omitted a major flaw.
Re: Re: Re: Okay, this is getting pathetic. When's it going to stop?
Once again: The DRM-ed copy is PART of the product that is being PAID for. It is not some free thing that is being given as a gift. I cannot buy a copy of this movie without the digital copy included, therefore it is a feature. The review of the DRM is a review of a broken part of the product. That is a legitimate review. Because for me, a part of what I’m paying for being that badly broken is of great concern to me.
Re: Re: Re: Okay, this is getting pathetic. When's it going to stop?
“You work for TD now, PaulT? Congratulations! ;)”
I wish… just wasting time while waiting for my car to be repaired! Just stating my honest opinion here.
“I’m not seeing consumers complaining, per a quick review of the reviews.”
How do you know they’re not consumers? At least a subset of them seem to be, even if there’s a few new accounts created just to complain here.
“Would you value a review of 1 star because they’re reviewing shipping and not the product?”
No, but I’d certainly take notice if there were a lot of them.
As mentioned above, this has happened a number of times when particularly odious DRM was introduced into games. It’s a fairly easy way to protest, gaining a lot of visibility for little effort. It was also very effective in the cases of Spore and some other games which had their DRM removed after the backlash.
If I were genuinely interested in just the product, it would be a trivial matter to ignore the 1 star reviews. But, I couldn’t say I wasn’t warned when the DRM bit me on the ass after I bought it…
“But to be clear: I’m not upset at anyone, but the use of strawmen is something I despise in these discussions.”
The thing is, I’m not seeing strawmen. I’m seeing an example of how pissed off people are. It may be astroturfing, maybe not, but neither of us can prove either case.
Re: Okay, this is getting pathetic. When's it going to stop?
I have made accounts on a few sites and used them one time, because I was so pissed off by the product being broken, that I told people it was broken, and then never went back.
Since the DRM is tied to the “digital copy” that is included in the price of the DVD, it IS a review of the product. Specifically, the not-working part of the product. So, so much for straw-man arguments.
Plus, how many people with the time and willingness to use the digital copy aren’t tech-savvy enough to expect better? My parents and sister buy a movie with a digital copy “because it’s digital,” and because they expect it to work just like bittorrent (and Steam). Download and play. Anywhere. Anytime. Why? Because it makes sense. Because we pay $50+ a month for 20 gb/s internet, and our end can handle the bandwidth, why can’t theirs? Because anyone with access to a search engine can find a copy that works better.
We don’t want free. We want function. We want a price that is justified by the content. If you can’t justify your price with your content, your price isn’t worth it. So I won’t pay it.
I will never buy a DVD with this broken DRM included, and if I can get to them first to explain the problem, neither will anyone in my family.
Re: Re: Okay, this is getting pathetic. When's it going to stop?
“Because we pay $50+ a month for 20 gb/s internet, and our end can handle the bandwidth, why can’t theirs?”
I want your internet connection!!! I’m lucky to get 5Mb/s – thats nearly a zillion times slower than yours 🙁
Re: Re: Re: Okay, this is getting pathetic. When's it going to stop?
Yeah. Frankly, I was shocked when I found out I actually got the advertised speed. Lots of the time, I can actualy get to about 25 Mb/s…
Shit. I meant to say 20 MB/s. Not… Wait. I’ll be right back…
Right. 20 Mb/s, not gb/s. Whups.
Re: Re: Re:2 Okay, this is getting pathetic. When's it going to stop?
MB is mega bytes
Mb is mega bits
there are 8 bits to a byte, its a subtle difference but one the ISPs like to use to make their shit sound 8x faster than it is
Re: Re: Re:3 Okay, this is getting pathetic. When's it going to stop?
I was trying to add emphasis. Dangit. I hate having to code for emphasis, when usually capitalizing works. Frikkin… grumble mutter murmur murmur murmur
Re: Re: Re:4 Okay, this is getting pathetic. When's it going to stop?
Why get gigabits when you can get… MEGABITS?
Re: Re: Okay, this is getting pathetic. When's it going to stop?
Notice that it is the UltraViolet Digital Copy, not just Digital Copy, it doesn’t say that you can download and share it and give it to as many people as you want…you can use it on twelve devices, so think about this
1-phone
2-tablet
3-Computer
4-laptop
5-TV 1
6-TV 2
7- TV 3
8- Spouse’s Phone
9- Spouse’s Tablet
10- Children’s Phone
11- Children’s Phone
12- Children’s Phone
THATS ALOT OF DEVICES, why would you possible need anymore!
Re: Re: Re: Okay, this is getting pathetic. When's it going to stop?
Correction: 12 *pre-approved* devices with the file available for a limited amount of time. Your next device isn’t supported? Tough. Your next computer runs a non-approved OS? Tough. You want to run it on a console that’s not approved? Tough. You want to download it after an arbitrary cut-off point? Tough. You can have 4-5 decides every generation (very possible for the average consumer) and still be unable to play your legally obtained file on everything in the 3rd gen.
Pirated files have no such restrictions. In other words, it’s an inferior system you’re being charged extra for.
“THATS ALOT OF DEVICES, why would you possible need anymore!”
You’re making the typical fallacy of assuming that people will only want to play their files with the current gen. I still play DVDs I bought in 1997, but the DVD devices I use are totally different and have changed greatly over the years. I should have the same freedom with the digital files I obtain.
Re: Okay, this is getting pathetic. When's it going to stop?
“In this article, it’s those Amazon articles, which 1 minute of investigation would clearly show these reviews were written for the express purpose of being anti-DRM, not by “average consumer”.
A few tip-offs:
-Most reviews only have one review written.
-Those having just a few more (and not coincidentally tied to the “Ultraviolet” brand) spend time in other reviews complaining about DRM as well.
-“Average customer” seems to be quite content on the movie, not the DRM.
I know it’s probably a pain in the ass to actually spend a minute on every article, but I can’t stand it when people use strawmen to found an argument…”
http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A3PUXJQUQYXJGD/ref=cm_pdp_rev_all?ie=UTF8&sort_by=MostRecentReview
13 reviews mostly positive 8 year old account, hates ultraviolet
http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A1NFR6I9KSUR6M?ie=UTF8&display=public&sort_by=MostRecentReview&page=1
29 reviews mostly positive ten year old account, hates ultraviolet
http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/ANVYJMPDZWTO5/ref=cm_pdp_rev_all?ie=UTF8&sort_by=MostRecentReview
6 reviews all extremely positive, except he hates ultra violet
Those are from the first few pages. I skipped all the people with many reviews that were all negative and people with 1 review because there were some. Including someone with a 12 year old account who has never commented but apparently this was the straw.
I know amazon comments are not a trustworthy source of information but there is certainly a backlash about this “service” beyond just DRM haters getting all DRM hatey
Re: Okay, this is getting pathetic. When's it going to stop?
I’m not so sure about this as a signifier. I’ve never written an Amazon review, good or bad. I will probably never write a good review, because if I’m happy with my purchase then I have no emotional motivation to go to the trouble of going back to a product page for a product I’m no longer considering buying (because I already have it).
If I got a product that angered me severely, though, I could totally see myself going back and writing a bad review. Then I would be one of those people who only have 1 review. Does that mean my review is somehow invalid?
I actually am more suspicious of reviewers that have numerous reviews posted, because it seems like they just like to write reviews, or are paid to write reviews. If most of their reviews are bad, or most are good, then I do entirely dismiss their opinion as it’s probably more about them than about the product.
Timing is everything
I WAS thinking of checking it out but held off. Now I am glad that I did.
Just buy or rent DVDs, then! -- Since you're all legal and paying.
I take that assertion with skepticism. If true, then you could reasonably and morally share the cost or rent of the DVD with whoever watches it, rather than passing it around “free”, or ripping it to put online. There’s no reason that you have to download except for convenience, and since you say the legal way to do that is NOT convenient, then just forget that content. That’ll learn ’em.
I’ve already covered these next points elsewhere, but as they keep being put up:
) Music is cheaper to make than any movie. No comparision can be made with success of Itunes or whatever music. Nor can shops with commodities be used to claim that /high/ priced items could be offered without guarding.
) Blame /pirates/ for the presence of DRM. You can say loss of income is only perceived, but those who wish for that income even if hypothetical are fixated on it, so it’s chiseled in granite, take it as a fact of their motives at least.
Does anyone here /really/ wish to assert that /you/ after spending, oh, say (per Mike’s example), $100M making a movie, would make it available online to everyone without DRM? — Want to identify yourself as at best a sappy idealist? Hmm? Anyone? … You all know darn well that it’d be pirated and you’d never recover those pesky “sunk (or fixed) costs”. What a bunch of impratical hypocrites.
But to exact topic: Let’s say, just for argument, that DRM streaming were made as convenient as bittorrent, after some one-time hoops are jumped through. Price stays the same, but then you’d all be happy, right?
Re: Just buy or rent DVDs, then! -- Since you're all legal and paying.
Pirates don’t put DRM on products, publishers do.
Re: Just buy or rent DVDs, then! -- Since you're all legal and paying.
WOW! Were you deprived of oxygen when you were a kid? Some of the dumbest remarks I have seen on here!!!
All you knobs have to do is make a website, charge 5 bucks a month and you would be rolling in the cash. Still put movies out to theaters, still sell whatever you want. Piracy will heavily decline and we can stop reading your dumbass remarks. Go do it and shutup!!
Re: Re: Just buy or rent DVDs, then! -- Since you're all legal and paying.
I suggested $10 here—-> http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20111018/03523516395/spanish-court-reverses-course-says-linking-to-infringing-material-is-crime.shtml#c318
ootb is a victim of selective procesing/recall
Re: Just buy or rent DVDs, then! -- Since you're all legal and paying.
“You all know darn well that it’d be pirated and you’d never recover those pesky “sunk (or fixed) costs”. What a bunch of impratical hypocrites.”
but its pirated anyway blue. DRM doesnt stop pirates it just inconviences paying customers, and pushes them towards piracy. You like them seem to think this DRM system has any effect on piracy once you stop thinking that you will realize how stupid all this is. Some people will never pay and no DRM will ever stop that so why not do right by the people that will pay for things?
Re: Just buy or rent DVDs, then! -- Since you're all legal and paying.
Does anyone here /really/ wish to assert that /you/ after spending, oh, say (per Mike’s example), $100M making a movie, would make it available online to everyone without DRM?
The movie is already available online to everyone without DRM, sometimes before it has even hit the shelves. For free, no less. Whether or not it is morally right to do, every movie is and will be pirated.
This is the entire point of the argument. If your paying customers are receiving broken products, and the non-paying thieves are receiving functional products, then you have failed as a business. There is no possible way you could be *worse off* by having DRM-free content at the same price; everyone who paid will still pay (why wouldn’t they pay the same price for a better product?), and everyone who would download still downloads (well not everyone, some more people would buy it once the hassles of DRM were gone)…but you don’t screw your customers over in the process.
But to exact topic: Let’s say, just for argument, that DRM streaming were made as convenient as bittorrent, after some one-time hoops are jumped through. Price stays the same, but then you’d all be happy, right?
Netflix. I’m quite happy with Netflix. And it’s as easy as bittorrent. Hell, I would say it’s even easier. The quality is reliable, and it’s available everywhere I go that has a decent Internet connection, even if I go to a friend’s house.
—
A little off-topic, I want to see your honest opinion on something. I have pre-ordered the new Zelda game, Skyward Sword. Games are usually released on pirate websites a few days before they hit the store shelves. Seeing as how Nintendo has already had my money for about a month (remember, I pre-ordered), do you think it’s okay to download the game to play it before it’s released?
Re: Just buy or rent DVDs, then! -- Since you're all legal and paying.
As opposed to the DRM ‘protected’ content which isn’t pirated?
Re: Just buy or rent DVDs, then! -- Since you're all legal and paying.
I would assert that, yes. Not because I’m a sappy idealist, but because I’m a realist. DRM does not stop piracy, or even slow it down, so the only effect of it is to cost me sales because I’m pissed off a portion of my legitimate customer base.
The pragmatic business decision is to omit the DRM and, if necessary, address the piracy in a different way. On that score, there are a myriad of possibilities. Which is the best would depend on my exact business position.
Re: Just buy or rent DVDs, then! -- Since you're all legal and paying.
Look, I buy so many movies (DVD only.) that my wife steers me away from the movie section of the store. So it’s fair so say that I own several hundred of those shiny discs.
And yes, just to make a point, I paid for the damn thing, Please make the multiple FBI warnings skippable!
Anyway, back to the point, as you read in the original post, “Ultraviolet” and it’s associated service are not only broken but required several hoops to burn in order to get the “Digital Download”. Obviously this is Draconian Fail aimed at someone that has already proven they are willing to PAY for the movie. So why make it is so damn hard and piss off existing customers? Have me register my copy with you (So my copy can be tracked if its found on some server.) and then give me the clean file in .MPG or .AVI format.
BING! I’m happy and feel like I got what I PAID for. Accordingly, I will continue my habit of buying movies, despite my wife’s objections, making you money.
Everyone wins. No one gets all pissy because of some Pain In The Ass DRM.
But in reality, what I do now is buy the shiny disc, and rip it to make my own “Digital copy” because the industry has it made getting their version of the digital copy so painful, I simply wont submit to the process.
My point is:
1 – I’m happy to buy your product.
2 – I paid for the damn thing, make the stupid FBI warnings skippable. Really, this means a lot to me.
3 – Watermark my digital copy and give me the file. I am willing to live with that.
4 – Make it simple and I’m your man.
5 – Make it painful and obnoxious and I simply wont do it. Why should I? I paid for the shiny thingy.
And finally, don’t offer the movie at all and even though I’ve proven that I am willing to pay for it, I will find it in the Internet. I think you missed a paying customer there.
Sigh, really how F’n hard is this for you guys to get? I’ll give you cash and someone will always find a way to defeat the DRM crap. So why bother and lets trade cash for product. I’m more than willing!
Good thing my wife doesn’t read this blog……
“Does anyone here /really/ wish to assert that /you/ after spending, oh, say (per Mike’s example), $100M making a movie, would make it available online to everyone without DRM? — Want to identify yourself as at best a sappy idealist? Hmm? Anyone? … You all know darn well that it’d be pirated and you’d never recover those pesky “sunk (or fixed) costs”. What a bunch of impratical hypocrites.”
Way to miss the point.. The fact is that if you spend $100M making a movie, the chances are that it will be available without DRM regardless of your wishes – so why spend the time and money applying a useless technology that pisses off the people who WILL actually buy your movie? – especially as that useless technology will have further costs attached to it as well – support calls and ongoing servers for example. Piracy happens REGARDLESS of DRM – DRM does nothing at all to stop it or even to slow it down.
“But to exact topic: Let’s say, just for argument, that DRM streaming were made as convenient as bittorrent, after some one-time hoops are jumped through. Price stays the same, but then you’d all be happy, right?”
Only if I actually owned the content and not simply a license to view the content until the servers are turned off. That means that as well as streaming, I must be able to download for viewing offline, and it must work flawlessly on ANY of my media devices – that includes my Android phone, my tablet, my TV, my PVR, XBMC etc. Then we might be a little closer.
This is not, and has not for some time now, been about customer service, but ownership.
In times past, the pace of technology was such that by the time a new technology emerged, people were about ready to replace their old devices which were wearing out. Now technology evolves at the pace where increasingly larger groups of people are sometimes skipping one or even two generations of tech before they are ready to replace their old tech.
As I have been saying for close to 15 years now, what we are seeing, and will continue to see if things go unchallenged, is a fundamental shift from a capitalism economy back into a quasi-feudal society – except instead of large land baron, we will slowly become serfs to increasingly larger mega-corporation.
They have already replaced the government with what is effectively an Oligarchy (say what you will about the Democrats and Republicans – and despite their vastly different methodologies, if you follow either path to their logical conclusion they invariably arrive at pretty much the same destination – but watch what happens when anything comes along that might threaten their collective power base) so now it is just a matter of working the legislation through to make the changes they need.
One just needs a really good history book of the American Colonies from about the 1730s to about the 1770s to see the parallels in the process going on today.
Unfortunately, now, as then, it does not appear that enough people are paying attention or care enough to keep the process from reaching its inevitable violent conclusion.
Behold! The 8000 word EULA
UltraViolet? Service Terms Of Use
YOUR USE OF ULTRAVIOLET IS GOVERNED BY THESE TERMS OF USE, THE ULTRAVIOLET PRIVACY POLICY AND ANY SUPPLEMENTAL TERMS AND CONDITIONS PROVIDED TO YOU FOR ANY OF THE PRODUCTS, SERVICES, CONTENT, OR OTHER OFFERINGS MADE AVAILABLE TO YOU BY OR ON BEHALF OF THE DIGITAL ENTERTAINMENT CONTENT ECOSYSTEM (DECE) LLC (?DECE? or ?we?) IN CONNECTION WITH ULTRAVIOLET, (COLLECTIVELY, THE ?ULTRAVIOLET TERMS OF USE?). THIS IS A LEGALLY BINDING AGREEMENT BETWEEN YOU AND DECE. PLEASE READ THESE TERMS CAREFULLY.
Table of Contents
Acceptance of UltraViolet Terms of Use
Changes to UltraViolet and the UltraViolet Terms of Use
Jurisdictional Issues
Third Party Sites, Products and Services
Setting up an UltraViolet Account
Registering Members
Parental Controls
Confidentiality and Passwords
Privacy Policy
Obtaining Rights to UltraViolet Content
Viewing UltraViolet Content
Registration, Use and Removal of UltraViolet Devices
Streaming UltraViolet Content
System Requirements and Administrative Access
Termination, Removal and Suspension of a Member or UltraViolet Account
Conduct In Connection with UltraViolet
Intellectual Property Matters
Communications
Submissions
Right to Monitor and Editorial Control
Disclaimer of Warranties; Limitation of Liability
Indemnification
Third Parties
Claims of Copyright Infringement
Resolving Disputes
Entire Agreement; Interpretation
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In addition to any other requirements associated with the use of UltraViolet, you may not and agree not to:
share your password with anyone, or obtain or attempt to gain unauthorized access to UltraViolet Accounts to which you are not a Member, or obtain or attempt to gain unauthorized access to UltraViolet content to which you do not have permission or authority to access;
alter, edit, delete, obscure, otherwise change the meaning or appearance of, enclose, repurpose, redistribute, republish or publicly perform any of the UltraViolet content, including by linking to, hosting, embedding, streaming, framing and/or using any other means;
alter any trademarks, trade names, logos, service marks, promotional taglines, copyright notices or warnings or any other proprietary content or proprietary rights notices included therein or thereon;
engage in spidering, screen scraping, database scraping, harvesting of email addresses or other personal information, or any other automatic or unauthorized means of accessing, logging in or registering for UltraViolet, or obtaining lists of Members or other information from or through UltraViolet, including, without limitation, any information residing on any server or database connected to UltraViolet;
use UltraViolet in any manner that could interrupt, damage, disable, degrade, overburden or impair UltraViolet or interfere with any other Member?s use and enjoyment of UltraViolet;
circumvent, reverse engineer, decrypt, or otherwise alter or interfere (or attempt, encourage or support anyone else?s attempt to do any of the foregoing) with any part or portion of UltraViolet, including without limitation, any security aspects or content protection of UltraViolet content;
upload, post, link to, transmit, distribute or otherwise publish to, on or through UltraViolet, any information, content, or materials that are false, fraudulent, misleading, unlawful, threatening, abusive, harassing, hateful, racially, ethnically, or otherwise objectionable, libelous, defamatory, obscene, vulgar, offensive, incendiary, pornographic, profane, sexually explicit or indecent, or which causes annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety, is in breach of confidence, in breach of any intellectual property rights or otherwise is in breach of or violates any applicable law or regulation, including, without limitation, any material which encourages conduct that would constitute a criminal offense, give rise to civil liability or otherwise violate any law or regulation;
use UltraViolet to violate, plagiarize or infringe the rights of third parties, including, without limitation, copyright, trademark, trade secret, confidentiality, contract, patent, rights of privacy or rights of publicity or any other proprietary or legal right;
impersonate or misrepresent yourself or your connection to any other entity or person;
upload, post, link to, transmit, distribute or otherwise publish any information or material which constitutes or contains a virus, spyware, or other harmful component, or which contains any embedded links, advertising, chain letters or pyramid schemes of any kind;
post or otherwise distribute untruthful or incorrect information that may mislead others with respect to certain functions or features of the service;
post links to websites or materials that could harm others’ computers or would allow others to inappropriately access software or websites or would violate the UltraViolet Terms of Use;
use UltraViolet to harvest information about Members for the purpose of sending, or to facilitate or encourage the sending of, unsolicited bulk mail or other communications;
resell or redistribute the service, or to assign or transfer your Member account, or any part of UltraViolet, to anyone else either permanently or temporarily;
use UltraViolet for any commercial purpose;
publish, distribute or disseminate any topic, name, material, file or information that incites discrimination, hate or violence towards one person or a group because of their race, religion, nationality, transgender status, homosexual status or HIV/AIDS status, or that insults the victims of crimes against humanity by contesting the existence of those crimes; or
use UltraViolet, in whole or in part, in violation of any applicable law or regulation.
IF YOU VIOLATE OR CIRCUMVENT, OR ATTEMPT TO VIOLATE OR CIRCUMVENT, ANY SECURITY, CONTENT PROTECTION OR OTHER TECHNOLOGY OR ANY APPLICABLE LAWS, REGULATIONS OR REQUIREMENTS ASSOCIATED WITH USE OF ULTRAVIOLET, YOU MAY BE SUBJECT TO CIVIL AND/OR CRIMINAL LIABILITY.
Intellectual Property Matters
As between you and DECE, other than the rights you have obtained with respect to UltraViolet content, DECE owns, solely and exclusively, all rights, title and interest in and to UltraViolet and all of the content, software, code, data and other materials thereon, and the look-and-feel, design and organization of any aspect thereof , including any copyrights, trademark rights, patent rights and other intellectual property and proprietary rights therein (collectively, the ?UltraViolet Service Material?). Your use of UltraViolet does not grant to you ownership or title of, in or to any UltraViolet Service Material, UltraViolet content or any other part of UltraViolet. UltraViolet, the UltraViolet Service Material and the UltraViolet content are for your personal and non-commercial use only. You may not reproduce, distribute, copy, perform, display, modify, create derivative works from, or offer for sale any information contained on or obtained from or through UltraViolet or the UltraViolet Service Material, without the express written consent of DECE. In particular, you are not permitted to republish any part of UltraViolet on another website, in any other medium (print, electronic or otherwise) or as part of any commercial service without DECE?s prior written permission. The creation and use of an UltraViolet Account, Member or display name in connection with UltraViolet does not grant you any intellectual property or other rights therein. DECE reserves all rights in all UltraViolet Account, Member and display names and may require UltraViolet Account, Member or display names to be changed.
Your rights with respect to any specific UltraViolet content are established by the retailer from which you obtained such rights and are subject to the limitations imposed by copyright holders and other third parties. When you obtain rights to UltraViolet content, that UltraViolet content remains subject to the intellectual property rights of the copyright owner and other third parties. The UltraViolet content is being licensed and not sold to you. You may only use the UltraViolet content for your personal and non-commercial use and as expressly authorized by the copyright owner and other third parties, including the applicable retailer.
The trademarks, trade names, domain names, service marks, logos and other distinctive brand features associated with UltraViolet are proprietary to DECE and other third parties. Nothing contained in or provided through UltraViolet should be construed as granting, by implication, estoppel, or otherwise, any license or right to use any trademarks, trade names, domain names, service marks, logos or other distinctive brand features without DECE?s written permission or that of the third-party rights holder.
Communications
From time to time we may need to get in touch with you regarding UltraViolet and your use thereof. You consent to receive communications from DECE electronically. You agree that all disclosures, notices, agreements, and other communications you receive from DECE electronically satisfy any legal requirement for such communications to be in writing. DECE does not accept any liability or responsibility for emails or other electronic communications that are filtered, intercepted, garbled, lost, or not received.
Submissions
You may have an opportunity to submit comments to DECE or post information and materials on the UltraViolet Website. Any information, ideas or materials you elect to send or post, directly or indirectly by email, or in any other way (?Submissions?) will be deemed not to be confidential or secret, to have been deliberately and voluntarily made public by you and may be used by DECE and its designees at DECE?s sole discretion in any manner. Furthermore:
you grant DECE a royalty-free, unrestricted, worldwide, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive and fully transferrable, assignable and sublicensable right and license to use, reproduce, modify, translate, edit, distribute, create derivative works from, publish, perform, display, translate, syndicate, sub-license and transmit the whole or any part of your Submissions (including without limitation any of the information, details, ideas, concepts and/or formats and all intellectual property rights contained within it) in any manner and in any format, media and/or technology now know or later developed (including, without limitation, archiving and making such material available on UltraViolet);
you represent and warrant that the Submissions are original to you, that no other party has any rights thereto and to the extent permissible by law, you waive all moral rights subsisting in your Submissions anywhere in the world;
you agree that publication of your Submissions by us will be at our sole discretion and we reserve the right (but not the obligation) to edit or otherwise amend such materials prior to publication, and you accept that we are under no obligation to publish your Submissions if we in our sole discretion decide not to;
you agree that we may (at our sole discretion) disclose your identity to any third party who is claiming that any Submissions sent by you are defamatory, in breach of confidence, in breach of any intellectual property right (including, without limitation, copyright), or otherwise in breach of or violate any applicable law, regulation or code of practice;
you warrant that your Submissions are not obscene, threatening, menacing, offensive, defamatory, abusive, likely to cause annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety, in breach of confidence, in breach of any intellectual property right (including, without limitation, copyright) or otherwise in breach of or violate any applicable law, regulation or code of practice and understand that DECE reserves the right at all times to edit, refuse to post or to remove any Submissions.
DECE DOES NOT ENDORSE, SUPPORT, SANCTION, ENCOURAGE OR AGREE WITH ANY SUBMISSIONS, OR ANY OPINION, RECOMMENDATION, CONTENT, LINK, DATA OR ADVICE EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED THEREIN, AND DECE EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMS ANY AND ALL LIABILITY IN CONNECTION WITH SUBMISSIONS AND ANY OTHER CONTENT, MATERIALS OR INFORMATION AVAILABLE ON OR THROUGH ULTRAVIOLET CREATED OR PROVIDED BY MEMBERS OR OTHER THIRD PARTIES. DECE HAS NO RESPONSIBILITY TO MAINTAIN ANY SUBMISSION AND MAY DELETE OR DESTROY ANY SUBMISSION AT ANY TIME.
Right to Monitor and Editorial Control
Although initially UltraViolet does not permit individuals to post any information or materials, DECE reserves the right (but does not have nor assume any obligation) to monitor and/or review all information and materials submitted to or through UltraViolet if and when such functionality is enabled; however, it is DECE?s policy not to monitor such materials.
DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTIES; LIMITATION OF LIABILITY
ULTRAVIOLET, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, ANY AND ALL CONTENT, FUNCTIONS, USER INTERFACES, AND MATERIALS THEREOF OR OTHERWISE AVAILABLE ON OR THROUGH ULTRAVIOLET, ARE PROVIDED “AS IS,” “AS AVAILABLE,? AND, TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, WITHOUT ANY PROMISES OR WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, (a) ANY WARRANTY FOR INFORMATION, DATA, DATA PROCESSING SERVICES, UPTIME OR UNINTERRUPTED ACCESS, (b) ANY WARRANTIES CONCERNING THE AVAILABILITY, ACCURACY, USEFULNESS, CORRECTNESS, PRECISION, THOROUGHNESS, COMPLETENESS OR CONTENT OF INFORMATION, (c) ANY WARRANTIES OF TITLE, NON-INFRINGEMENT, SATISFACTORY QUALITY, MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, (d) THAT ULTRAVIOLET OR ANY ULTRAVIOLET SERVICE MATERIAL WILL BE TIMELY, SECURE, UNINTERRUPTED OR ERROR-FREE, (e) THAT DEFECTS WILL BE CORRECTED IN A TIMELY MANNER OR AT ALL, (f) THAT ANY OF THE FEATURES OR FUNCTIONALITY ASSOCIATED WITH ULTRAVIOLET WILL BE AVAILABLE AT ANY GIVEN TIME OR FOR ANY DURATION, (g) THAT ULTRAVIOLET, IN WHOLE OR IN PART, WILL MEET MEMBERS? REQUIREMENTS, (h) THAT ANY PARTICULAR THIRD PARTY SITES, PRODUCTS AND SERVICES WILL WORK WITH ULTRAVIOLET OR (i) THAT YOUR USE OF ULTRAVIOLET WILL BE FREE FROM LOSS, CORRUPTION, ATTACK, VIRUSES, INTERFERENCE, HACKING, OR OTHER SECURITY INTRUSION. DECE, ITS AFFILIATES, MEMBERS, CONTRACTORS, LICENSORS, AND EACH OF THEIR RESPECTIVE OFFICERS, DIRECTORS, EMPLOYEES, AGENTS, AND REPRESENTATIVES (COLLECTIVELY, THE ?DECE ENTITIES?) HEREBY DISCLAIM ANY AND ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS AND IMPLIED TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW.
THE DECE ENTITIES ALSO ASSUME NO RESPONSIBILITY, AND SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR, ANY DAMAGES TO, OR VIRUSES THAT MAY INFECT, YOUR COMPUTER EQUIPMENT, ULTRAVIOLET DEVICE OR OTHER PROPERTY AS A RESULT OF YOUR ACCESS TO OR USE OF ULTRAVIOLET OR YOUR DOWNLOADING, STREAMING, OR UPLOADING OF ANY MATERIALS, DATA, TEXT, IMAGES, VIDEO, OR AUDIO FROM OR TO ULTRAVIOLET. YOUR ACCESS TO AND USE OF ULTRAVIOLET IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK. IF YOU ARE DISSATISFIED WITH ULTRAVIOLET, YOU SHOULD DISCONTINUE USING ULTRAVIOLET.
TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, IN NO EVENT SHALL ANY DECE ENTITY BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, EXEMPLARY OR PUNITIVE DAMAGES ARISING FROM, OR DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY RELATED TO, THE USE OF, OR THE INABILITY TO USE, ULTRAVIOLET OR ANY FEATURES OR FUNCTIONALITY THEREOF, OR ANY ULTRAVIOLET CONTENT OR ANY THIRD PARTY SITES, PRODUCTS AND SERVICES EVEN IF SUCH DECE ENTITY HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. SOME JURISDICTIONS MAY NOT ALLOW OR MAY RESTRICT THE LIMITATION OR EXCLUSION OF LIABILITY FOR CERTAIN TYPES OF ACTIONS AND/OR DAMAGES, SO IN SUCH JURISDICTIONS, LIABILITY SHALL BE LIMITED TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE DECE ENTITIES BE RESPONSIBLE OR LIABLE FOR OR IN CONNECTION WITH ANY DISPUTE BETWEEN OR AMONGST MEMBERS AND/OR WITH THIRD PARTIES FROM WHOM ULTRAVIOLET CONTENT IS ACQUIRED OR CONSUMED, OR IN CONNECTION WITH ANY CONTENT POSTED, TRANSMITTED, EXCHANGED OR RECEIVED BY OR ON BEHALF OF ANY MEMBER OR OTHER PERSON ON OR THROUGH ULTRAVIOLET. YOU UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT (I) THE MUTUAL AGREEMENTS MADE IN THIS SECTION REFLECT A REASONABLE ALLOCATION OF RISK GIVEN THAT ULTRAVIOLET IS FREE TO MEMBERS, AND (II) DECE WOULD NOT HAVE ALLOWED YOU ACCESS TO ULTRAVIOLET OR TO BECOME A MEMBER WITHOUT THESE LIMITATIONS ON LIABILITY. NOTHING IN THE ULTRAVIOLET TERMS OF USE SHALL ACT TO EXCLUDE OR LIMIT LIABILITY FOR DEATH OR PERSONAL INJURY (WHERE SUCH LIABILITY CANNOT BE EXCLUDED OR LIMITED AS A MATTER OF APPLICABLE LAW) OR OTHER TYPES OF LIABILITY THAT CANNOT BE EXCLUDED OR LIMITED AS A MATTER OF APPLICABLE LAW
Indemnification
You agree to defend, indemnify and hold DECE, its affiliates, members, contractors and licensors and each of their respective officers, directors, employees, agents and representatives harmless from and against any and all claims, liabilities, suits, losses, damages, costs and expenses, including reasonable attorneys’ fees, arising in any way from (i) your use of UltraViolet, (ii) your Submissions, in whole or in part, (iii) your failure to comply with any applicable laws or regulations, or (iv) your breach or violation of the UltraViolet Terms of Use. DECE reserves the right, at DECE?s own expense, to assume the exclusive defense and control of any matter subject to indemnification by you, and in such case, you agree to cooperate in full at your own expense with any such defense.
Third Parties
DECE may exercise any of its rights hereunder and/or perform any of its obligations directly or through third parties. Any rights granted to DECE, including any releases from or limitations on liability, extend equally to third parties acting on DECE?s behalf.
Claims of Copyright Infringement
DECE respects the intellectual property rights of others, and requires that the individuals who use UltraViolet do the same. If you believe that your work has been copied in a way that constitutes copyright infringement, please forward the following information to DECE?s copyright agent, designated as such pursuant to the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C. ? 512(c)(2) (?DMCA?), named below:
Your address, telephone number, and email address;
A description of the copyrighted work that you claim has been infringed;
A description of where the alleged infringing material is located;
A statement by you that you have a good faith belief that the disputed use is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law;
An electronic or physical signature of the person authorized to act on behalf of the owner of the copyright interest; and
A statement by you that the above information in your notice is accurate and, under penalty of perjury, that you are the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed or authorized to act on the owner’s behalf.
Please be advised that in accordance with the DMCA and other applicable law, DECE has adopted a policy of terminating, in appropriate circumstances, the UltraViolet Accounts of Members who are deemed to be repeat infringers of the intellectual property rights of others.
Copyright Agent:
Sheriese Rush
DECE Administration
1807 Santa Rita Road
Suite D235
Pleasanton, CA 94566
Email: admin@decellc.com
Phone: +1 (415) 814-1118 x 4
Resolving Disputes
PLEASE READ THE PROVISIONS OF THIS SECTION CAREFULLY. IT PROVIDES THAT ANY DISPUTE MAY BE RESOLVED BY BINDING ARBITRATION. BY AGREEING TO ARBITRATION, YOU ARE HEREBY WAIVING THE RIGHT TO GO TO COURT, INCLUDING THE RIGHT TO A JURY TRIAL. IN ARBITRATION, A DISPUTE IS RESOLVED BY AN ARBITRATOR, OR A PANEL OF ARBITRATORS, INSTEAD OF A JUDGE OR JURY. YOU UNDERSTAND THAT YOU WOULD HAVE HAD A RIGHT OR OPPORTUNITY TO LITIGATE DISPUTES THROUGH A COURT AND TO HAVE A JUDGE OR JURY DECIDE YOUR CASE, BUT YOU CHOOSE (BY YOUR ACCEPTANCE OF THE ULTRAVIOLET TERMS OF USE AND/OR YOUR ACCESS OR USE OF ULTRAVIOLET OR THE ULTRAVIOLET WEBSITE) TO HAVE ANY DISPUTES RESOLVED THROUGH ARBITRATION.
In order to expedite and control the cost of disputes, you agree that any legal or equitable claim, dispute, action or proceeding relating to Ultraviolet or the UltraViolet Terms of Use (a ?Claim?), will be resolved as follows:
1. Informal Claim Resolution: To initiate an informal resolution to a Claim, you must send a notice (a ?Notice?) by first class United States mail to DECE at:
Sheriese Rush
DECE Administration
1807 Santa Rita Road
Suite D235
Pleasanton, CA 94566
Any Notice must include your full legal name and a valid return address for you in order to be effective. Neither of us may start a formal proceeding (except for Claims described in subsection 3 below) for at least sixty days after one of us notifies the other of a Claim in writing. If we initiate a Claim, we will send our notice to the email address on file with us.
2. Formal Resolution: If we cannot resolve a Claim informally, including any Claim between us (and any Claim by either of us against any agent, employee, successor, or assign of the other, including, to the full extent permitted by applicable law, third parties who are not party to the Ultraviolet Terms of Use), whether related to the Ultraviolet Terms of Use or otherwise, including past, present, and future Claims and disputes, and including any dispute as to the validity or applicability of this arbitration clause then these Claims shall be resolved, upon election by either party, exclusively and finally by binding arbitration.
The party initiating arbitration must follow the provisions set forth in this ?Resolving Disputes? section of the Terms of Use and the rules and procedures of the American Arbitration Association (?AAA?) in effect at the time the Claim is filed, except to the extent such rules and procedures may modified by this section of the Terms of Use, and the parties agree that the arbitration shall be administered by AAA. You may obtain copies of the current rules, forms and instructions for initiating an arbitration by contacting:
American Arbitration Association
1633 Broadway, 10th Floor New York, New York 10019
Web site: http://www.adr.org
(800) 778-7879
This arbitration agreement is made pursuant to a transaction involving interstate commerce and shall be governed by the Federal Arbitration Act (?FAA?), and not by any state law concerning arbitration.
3. Small Claims: Instead of proceeding to arbitration, you have the option to pursue a Claim in small claims court (or the equivalent) so long as (1) the Claim remains in that court, and (2) is made solely on your behalf. However, if that Claim is transferred or appealed to a different court, we reserve our right to elect arbitration.
4. Cost Sharing. Whoever files the arbitration pays the initial filing fee. If we file, we pay; if you file, you pay, unless you get a fee waiver under the applicable arbitration rules. If you have paid the initial filing fee and you prevail, we will reimburse you for that fee. If there is a hearing, we will pay any fees of the arbitrator and arbitration firm for the first day of that hearing. All other fees will be allocated as provided by the rules of the arbitration firm and applicable law. In no event will you be required to reimburse us for any arbitration filing, administrative, or hearing fees in an amount greater than what your court costs would have been if the Claim had been resolved in a state court with jurisdiction. However, we will advance or reimburse your fee if the arbitration firm or arbitrator determines there is good reason requiring us to do so, or if you ask us and we determine there is good reason for doing so. Each party will bear the expense of that party?s attorneys, experts, and witnesses, and other expenses, regardless of which party prevails, but a party may recover any or all expenses from another party if the arbitrator, applying applicable law, so determines.
5. Class Actions and Severability: If either party elects to resolve a claim by arbitration, that Claim shall be arbitrated on an individual basis. There shall be no right or authority for any claims to be arbitrated on a class action basis or on bases involving Claims brought in a purported representative capacity on behalf of the general public, other subscribers, or other persons similarly situated. No Claim submitted to arbitration is heard by a jury or may be brought as a private attorney general. You do not have the right to act as a class representative or participate as a member of a class of claimants with respect to any Claim submitted to arbitration (?Class Action Waiver?). The parties to the Ultraviolet Terms of Use acknowledge that the Class Action Waiver is material and essential to the arbitration of any disputes between the parties and is nonseverable from the Ultraviolet Terms of Use to arbitrate Claims. ‘Claim’ does not include any challenge to the validity and effect of the Class Action Waiver, which must be decided by a court. The parties acknowledge and agree that under no circumstances will a class action be arbitrated. If any portion of this arbitration agreement or the Class Action Waiver is limited, voided or cannot be enforced, then the parties’ agreement to arbitrate (except for this sentence) shall be null and void with respect to such proceeding, subject to the right to appeal the limitation or invalidation of the Class Action Waiver, that portion will be severed, and the rest of the arbitration agreement will continue to apply. If this entire agreement to arbitrate shall be null and void, then the parties agree that any Actions shall be commenced and heard in the appropriate court in New Castle County, Delaware. You agree to submit to the personal and exclusive jurisdiction of the courts located within New Castle County in the State of Delaware.
6. Binding Effect; Governing Law: In the arbitration proceeding, the arbitrator must follow applicable law, and any award may be challenged, as set forth in the FAA. Any court with jurisdiction may enter judgment upon the arbitrator?s award. The arbitrator’s decision is final and binding on all parties and may be enforced in any federal or state court with jurisdiction. The UltraViolet Terms of Use and the relationship between you and DECE shall be governed by the laws of the United States and the State of Delaware, without regard to its conflict of law provisions.
7. Exception. Prior to the appointment of an arbitrator, nothing herein shall prevent a party from seeking temporary injunctive relief in any court of competent jurisdiction, without waiving the right to arbitration.
8. Statute of Limitations. YOU AGREE THAT REGARDLESS OF ANY LAW OR REGULATION TO THE CONTRARY, ANY CLAIM OR CAUSE OF ACTION ARISING OUT OF OR RELATED TO USE OF ULTRAVIOLET OR THE ULTRAVIOLET TERMS OF USE MUST BE FILED WITHIN ONE YEAR AFTER SUCH CLAIM OR CAUSE OF ACTION AROSE OR BE FOREVER BARRED.
Entire Agreement; Interpretation. The UltraViolet Terms of Use (including all policies and documents incorporated herein by reference) represents the entire agreement between you and DECE and supersedes any proposal, or prior or contemporaneous, agreement, oral or written, and any other communications relating to the subject matter of this agreement. The invalidity or unenforceability of any particular provision of the UltraViolet Terms of Use does not affect the other provisions hereof, and the UltraViolet Terms of Use will be construed in all respects as if such invalid or unenforceable provision has been omitted. Except as otherwise expressly set forth in the UltraViolet Terms of Use, no remedy referred to in the UltraViolet Terms of Use is intended to be exclusive, but each shall be cumulative and in addition to any other remedy referred to herein or otherwise available at law, in equity or otherwise. DECE?s failure to exercise or enforce any right or provision of the UltraViolet Terms of Use shall not constitute a waiver of such right or provision. Unless otherwise stated, the singular includes the plural and vice versa, reference to a person includes a legal person (such as a limited liability company) as well as a natural person (an ?individual?) and the words ?include?, ?including?, ?in particular?, ?for example? or similar shall be construed as illustrative and without limitation. Descriptive headings are for the convenience of the reader, and shall not be used to add to or limit the meaning of relevant terms and conditions.
Effective Date: September 2, 2011
Re: Behold! The 8000 word EULA
A link to it would be a lot less rude.
Re: Re: Behold! The 8000 word EULA
I agree, lets do links when its pages of painful, threatening crap.
But posting the whole Draconian mess sure makes a point.
Re: Re: Re: Behold! The 8000 word EULA
Exactly. Were I Queen of the Universe, Terms of Service (Servitude would be a better word) that are longer than my frickin’ arm would be automatically null and void.
Re: Behold! The 8000 word EULA
Nice act of copyright infringement freetard.
RE Sorry Wrong glasses
Butt Pirate??
I am more generally pissed about the price schema of things.
Physical DVD $25, Physical Blu-ray $30, Physical Blu-ray with digital download $35. Just the digital download $30 and in a couple of cases I saw it $39.99. I could ‘rent’ the digital download for $20. What a deal!
All I really want is the digital copy so I easily port it to what ever medium I want to watch it on. If the price was under $5 to own a non-DRMed digital download movie I would buy 2-5 a week.
As it is now I typical just wait to it airs on TV and then PVR it and if I want to keep it around I edit out all the commercials.
“It?s sort of like Facebook, only instead of friends and family, you have a humongous powerful group of international corporations hanging on your every datum. “
So it’s exactly like Facebook then?
Re: Re:
Hmm, “Funny” or “Insightful”? Gotta go with both.
Flixster or is it Fixster
I am looking at the “Green Lantern” DVD package and there is nothing classy about it. Design; thin flimsy case, no real features just trailer trash, marketing speak and no permanent mark for Ultraviolet anywhere.
What did catch my eye is this sentence, “Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc. is not responsible for maintaining access to any website or its content.”. The only other DVD package I have handy that has that piece of legalese is, “The Dark Night” which has a digital copy via wbdigitalcopy.com (expires Jun 9, 2009). Of course “Blade Runner: The Final Cut” (two disc special edition) has no website disclaimer because it has no digital copy. Warner is just putting on the fix.
Back in the Flixster insanity the three steps appear easy but as was said, are not. Warner may have been on the right track with wbdigitalcopy; four steps and no obvious registrations, just enter code and follow download directions. No doubt this system died because it was Windows only. The Flixster Ultraviolet system is going to die due to this rule: Lawyers design bad human interaction systems, especially the user interface procedures.
I knew the Flixster was worthless and after paging thru that contract post I think nobody in their right mind should use this service. Even when Warner is being up front about the service via Flixster instruction sheet, “Note: Neither Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc. nor any affiliate is responsible for maintaining Ultraviolet service.”. All the red flags I see are not going to keep me awake at night because the entire “Digital Copy” scheme is a scam.
Pray the innocent stay out of mystery databases like warz, p0rn and Flixster.
Ultraviolet is Crap
I didn’t like having to sign up for multiple accounts and having to share my info with the studios just to get a digital copy. You should only need one account period. Nor did I like having to download another bloated piece of software called Flixster Collections just so I could watch the movie. It uses Adobe Air, which is the same program Vudu uses. The playback is choppy and in one instance at least the video and audio are out of sync. I constantly see the movies trying to buffer with the loading symbol as they play which is very annoying. I would prefer the movies in itunes where I can keep my entire collection rather than trying to remember which player has which movie.
I refuse to buy another movie with Ultraviolet as the digital copy. In fact, I recently passed up a buying a movie on Blue Ray and DVD because the digital copy was Ultraviolet.
I have received no response from Flixster using their stupid form mail for support. Having even received a robot response in my email acknowledging they received my support ticket.
Okay, this is getting pathetic. When's it going to stop?
I am going to say right now that pirating is what proves to the movie companies that they can sell a movie for as much as they do, that they can pay actors millions of dollars. Should they really get pad millions of dollars, not necessarily. But you want it and supply and demand follows in suit, there is more demand than there is supply and the price goes up, fact of the matter is pirating means there is a demand for the product. Just cause you pirated it doesn’t mean you didn’t want it (why would you have pirated it then, duh). So if you really want prices to go down you have to not want the products, but that is never going to happen so just deal with it, Pirating is wrong (period). DRM is moral, it may not be like but it is legal and good for everyone, truly. If the movie companies stop making money because pirating gets out of control, no more movies, fact of the matter. It lets them choose the price, and if you don’t like it, sucks for you. Also, not a single one of you can tell me that if you where head of one of the companies you would be anti-DRM.
I'll buy my cake and eat it however the ForK I feel
I’m not a media pirate. I buy my media.
But I find usenet allows me to watch the media I have purchased to play on whatever device I own [when|how]ever I please.
I’ll pay hollywood, but I’ll enjoy the pirate cake, too. I do not pay for the privilege of watching ads. Shockingly I am a proponent of adblocking, privacy, and XMPP.
Get a fork… or get forked
hollywood inbreeding or IQ bell curve left=left ?
See also horse beaten into mushy clarity
http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=94554
(not for drm/faggots/trolls)
Re:
When North Korean’s break the law they get re-educated. Should we re-educate people? the law is always right no matter what after all.
Okay, this is getting pathetic. When's it going to s
Over the last, say, 7 years I’ve gone through 4 laptops, 3 desktops, 1 10′ tablet, 2 7′ tablets, and 2 cell phones. (Some similar devices, for various reasons, have sometimes been in simultaneous use.) My wife has gone through 4 TV’s, 1 10′ tablet, 1 7′ tablet, 2 laptops, 1 desktop, and 2 cell phones. So–I should live the rest of my life without purchasing any more electronic device, and my wife can replace her cell phone once and nothing else, and DON’T EVEN THINK ABOUT ONE ACCOUNT PER HOUSEHOLD because SOME ARROGANT MORON DOESN’T KNOW ELECTRONIC DEVICES BREAK OR GET OBSOLETE?
It won’t stop being pathetic until all the petty tyrants stop telling their honest paying customers what to do with legitimate purchases.