How Can The Music Industry Be Dead When More Music Is Being Produced And More Money Is Being Made?

from the woe-is-me dept

Kyle sent over yet another musician, named Nathan Harden, pulling out the “woe is me” schtick in an article claiming that this generation “killed rock ‘n’ roll.” It hits on all the usual debunked points and only quotes industry sources on the major label side of the business, assumes that the only way to make money in the music business is by selling albums or songs, and doesn’t even realize what a huge contradiction it makes in the process. It starts out by quoting record sales stats, but ignoring all of the recent studies that show that money hasn’t gone away, it’s just shifted to other channels — and those channels are ones where the actual artists get more money. It’s true that the major record labels are making less — no one denies that. But it’s folly to claim that this means the death of rock ‘n’ roll or music at all. Another recent study showed more music being released today than ever before in history. That doesn’t sound like a dying industry at all. In fact, this guy effectively admits that when he complains:

On my own MySpace page, I can upload my own band’s music to the web in a matter of minutes, and sell it to anyone in the world with an internet connection. Theoretically, it has never been easier to be heard. Yet hundreds of thousands of other musicians are competing for attention online.

But wait… just before that you were claiming that rock ‘n’ roll was dead. And yet here you are admitting that there are so many other musicians putting up their music as well? The two things do not compute.

As far as I can tell, Harden’s real complaint isn’t that rock ‘n’ roll is dying, but that a major label won’t just turn him into a rockstar. Instead, he might have to actually do some work to build up a fan base, and that’s icky:

Without support from a record label, musicians must master the intricacies of search engine optimization, social networking, email blasts, and twittering — not to mention traditional tasks like booking shows. Not surprisingly, many musicians lack such skills.

This has been discussed at length, with musicians who do that stuff pointing out that it’s not that much work at all, and if it’s really a problem, you work with someone (the “5th Beatle”) who does it for you.

Can you, even for a moment, imagine Janis Joplin pouring over HTML manuals, or Jimi Hendrix spending hours each day spamming potential fans on MySpace? Not likely. Had those two tried to make it in today’s marketplace, we may never have even heard of them.

Can you, even for a moment, imagine Jonathan Coulton going the major label route or Matthew Ebel getting a six figure advance from a major label? Not likely. Had those two tried to make it in yesterday’s marketplace, we may never have even heard of them.

The fact that more musicians are making music today and being able to release it and make a living from it than ever before suggests that things are actually looking much better, and we’re far from “the death of rock ‘n’ roll,” but reaching an incredible age of creativity, where people who had no chance at all before are now able to make music and make a living.

And furthermore, it’s ridiculous to suggest that artists like Hendrix and Joplin didn’t work hard to build their fanbase with what tools were available at the time.

In other words, it may not hurt Beyonce or AC/DC if you download their music. They are, after all, astonishingly wealthy. But it does hurt the record labels, which, in turn, cannot afford to sign, develop and promote as many new artists. Consequently, our music is becoming less diverse. In the long run, music lovers themselves are deprived.

I’m not sure what music Harden’s been listening to lately, but I’ve actually found music to be a lot more diverse these days, because it’s possible for bands to experiment and try different styles, and reach a worldwide audience. I’ve been listening to a reggae band from Spain the past few days. A few years ago, I never would have known they existed.

Sorry, Nathan Harden, but you’ve been sold the myth that only record labels make the music industry and that only through selling records does the music industry work. That’s simply not true. Yes, the record labels are having trouble, but rock ‘n’ roll isn’t dying. It’s thriving by adapting to this new market.

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Comments on “How Can The Music Industry Be Dead When More Music Is Being Produced And More Money Is Being Made?”

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96 Comments
RD says:

Ask TAM

Just ask TAM, the industry mouthpiece. I’m sure he can explain it. I mean, we’ve pointed these things out before, and somehow, there is still a BIG PROBLEM, somewhere…

Dark Knight and now Avatar set box office RECORDS, yet the industry is “dying” (usually laid at the feet of “piracy”, a movement that has a SMALL FRACTION of the total amount of people online engaging in)

The MUSIC industry is making MORE MONEY than ever, and as you point out, more and diverse music than ever is being CREATED. (but the RECORDING industry is suffering, so its “piracy’s” fault and the ENTIRE INDUSTRY is being “killed”)

Now you have book publishers wanting to increase ebook prices FIFTY PERCENT, all the while locking them to specific devices and not providing any means to give/sell/trade legit copies like you would a real book. Guess where they will lay the blame when THIS fails?

Chronno S. Trigger (profile) says:

Re: Re: Ask TAM

He didn’t say you were working for them, he said you were their mouth peace. That didn’t suggest that any money was crossing hands or that there was even a connection at all. Just that you constantly defend them even in their dumbest hours.

If you cannot get the simple fact straight, how can anyone take the rest of your posts seriously (granted, the don’t anyways)?

The Anti-Mike (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Ask TAM

RD has called me an industry shill, has said they are my overlords, bosses, etc.

He is totally fixated on the (incorrect) concept that I would for the music business.

He is being a total ass about it, and having corrected him numerous times, I am sick and tired of it. He is rude, he is insulting, and most of all, HE IS WRONG (even in capital letters).

Luci says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Ask TAM

You /ARE/ in industry shill. That doesn’t mean they pay you at all, it just means that you parrot their points ad nauseum, even in the face of dissenting opinion that is backed by fact and study after study.

Of course he’s rude, but that doesn’t mean he’s wrong. Mr Troll, and you are a troll, please stop being such an ass and actually respond to questions put to you, and don’t forget the evidence. That’s why you consistently fail.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Ask TAM

Update your dictionary… Shilling does not mean that you need to be paid for it.

From the first result of a search for the word on dictionary.com:

“2. a person who publicizes or praises something or someone for reasons of self-interest, personal profit, or friendship or loyalty.”

Your actions seem consistent with this definition, even if I’m not exactly sure which reason you specifically have. You deny this, but virtually every post you make fits.

The Anti-Mike (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Ask TAM

You may think they are, but they are my own free opinions, bound to nobody.

You think I am a troll because I don’t agree with Mike.

Oh well.

It’s okay, that is your opinion, as wrong as it is. You see, when you can’t get that right, how can I take anything else you say seriously? After all, that is the one thing I am absolutely sure of I don’t have overlords, bosses, or people telling me what to post, nor am I posting it out of some sort of friendship with people in the music industry or anything like that. Heck, I listen to talk radio.

But hey, you can keep making the same mistake over and over again, and let that mistake limit your thinking. It is you who ends up short, not me.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Ask TAM

“You think I am a troll because I don’t agree with Mike.”

No, I don’t. In fact, I have been known to congratulate you on making the occasional insightful or honestly interesting post. Mike is not the grand overlord here, and it’s nice to get a well thought-out, carefully argued counterpoint to the articles. Those are, sadly, rare.

The reason you get termed a troll is because you instantly take the contrarian view, even when the original article is clear-cut and backed by evidence. You constantly take the pro-industry, pro-copyright, pro-status quo position, even when it’s abundantly clear that horrendous mistakes are being made.

You constantly defend old business models and attack innovators, and reject ideas that do not fit with the RIAA/MPAA point of view. You rarely, if ever, back your statements up with facts. You constantly attack others’ sources without providing evidence of your own, and you have a habit of leaving threads after somebody has answered your claims with a concrete argument or solid evidence, only to return to a later thread with the same idiotic claims.

There are only a few explanations for this behaviour. Occam’s Razor suggests that you being an industry shill – paid or otherwise – is the most logical explanation. The onus is on you to provide reasons why we should not believe this, despite months of posts that appear to confirm it. You do occasionally lapse into acting rationally and engaging people here in actual discussion, but these occasions are rare.

Henry Emrich (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Ask TAM

“You think I am a troll because I don’t agree with Mike”.

Dude, *I* don’t “Agree with Mike”, sometimes.
In particular, I think his extremely well-intentioned efforts to demonstrate alternatives to the RIAA-style “business model”/reaction to technology — so as to help them succeed — is an extremely bad idea.

NOT because new business-models aren’t a great idea (they are), but primarily because the multinational corporate megaliths using RIAA, IFPI, BREIN — AND copyright “law” itself to the detriment of society at large, and artists in particular — don’t *DESERVE* any sort of “help” whatsoever.

The reason people hate them is *not* that they still, sorta, kinda produce (occasionally) good music or entertainment media. The reason people hate them, has more to do with stuff like 11 copyright-term increases in 30 years, re-monopolizing (“clawing back”) culture from the Public Domain, engaging in misinformation as to what copyright was originally for, etc. etc.

So helping them survive (or even adapt) to the changing technological and cultural milieu is….dare I say….extremely charitable and benevolent, from my point of view.

So, see: the criterion for not being treated like a dumbass is *not* “Agreement with Mike”. It’s simply NOT BEING A DUMBASS CORPORATE SHILL.

DocMenach (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Ask TAM

You think I am a troll because I don’t agree with Mike.

Wrong. We think you are a troll due to your techniques on these comments. You rarely if ever back up your statements with real facts. Whenever real facts are presented that contradict you, you dismiss it with statements like “maybe there’s more to it”, you insult people often. In general you act like a troll. If you actually participated in reasoned discourse, followed proper logic, and didn’t contradict yourself constantly then people wouldn’t call you a troll.

Rather than getting so angry that people assume that you are employed by the Recodring and/or Music industries (a reasonable assumption based on your comments), you could simply say what your profession is.

RD says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Ask TAM

Awesome. I didnt think the response would be this great. See TAMhole, its not JUST me that thinks these things of you. Besides, YOU picked your nick Anti-Mike. Right from the get-go, YOU set yourself up as the antithesis of anything Mike might bring up. WE didnt give you that name (tho I will take credit for “TAMhole” …snicker…I still like that one, makes me laugh). YOU chose your name and position, so now YOU get to reap the rewards. You dont get to whine and cry like a LITTLE CHILD that you are being persecuted or misunderstood.

And yeah, you ARE a shill. That you are unpaid means you are also stupid, as there are LOTS of paid shills trolling the internet, and you SHOULD be getting paid considering the lengths you will go to distort, skew, lie, misrepresent, contradict (even your OWN previous statements! This, by the way, is called “hypocrisy” and makes you a hypocrite) and generally pander to the Big Media point of view.

The Anti-Mike (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 Ask TAM

Okay there RealDense, shall we talk about your views?

Oh wait, your only view is a closeup of Mike’s butt, because I know exactly where your nose is.

If I am a shill, then you are just a shallow yes-man who can’t come up with his own ideas, and just swallows whatever is handed to you (and based on the position of your nose, I can pretty much figure out what you are eating all the time).

Too bad you can’t think for yourself. You have a lot of passion, but it is just for the waste material you are gorging yourself on.

The Anti-Mike (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 Ask TAM

All I can say is this: record labels routinely put huge amounts of money on the line to get new acts the exposure they need to get their music out, to be well known, and to make a pile of money over careers.

They also put tons of money on the line for acts that never really recoup the cash, never really break, and pretty much everyone loses money on the deal.

Artists today outside of label deals seem to spend much of their time begging for money, running online flea markets, or doing other “non music” things to be able to afford to record songs that might never see the light of day.

While the labels may be motivated by money, they spend money to make money, and they spent the type of money bands and artists want to be able to have a shot at the “big times”. There is nobody else out there consistantly putting huge amounts of money on the line to make things go, and that investment is definitely good for artists.

As a side note, with the arrival of the Ipad, Apple already appears set to be “selling” TV shows for $1 an episode. Perhaps this is another indication that the wild west phase is passing…

The Anti-Mike (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 Ask TAM

Nope, it’s an indication of more media moving to “sale” or “rent” rather than “gimmie gimmie gimmie”. The return to direct monetization of content is a key in the process of making this all work.

Even if it never comes completely to people paying for all that they see, it helps to support the value of ad supported “free” stuff. It isn’t a sudden end to the wild west, but it presents options.

Plus I have to say that it give the whole “but it’s not available at a reasonable price” crowd something to think about, one less justification for making torrent searches your first source for content.

RD says:

Re: Re: Re:11 Ask TAM

“Plus I have to say that it give the whole “but it’s not available at a reasonable price” crowd something to think about, one less justification for making torrent searches your first source for content.”

How about available AT ALL? You never answer for this abrogation of the copyright bargain.

Disney’s Song of the South….can you buy it from them? NO!

The John Larroquette Show (and many others): Can you buy these? NO!

If they wont keep their side of the bargain, you cant expect people to even TRY to keep theirs.

Henry Emrich (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12 Ask TAM

Wow, TAM, you just get dumber as you go, don’t you?

1. “The “Wild West phase”….
Exactly which corporate mouthpiece did you “steal” that one off of, Hmm?

2. Apple “renting” shows for a buck? Yeah, some people will be stupid enough to use it, just like some people are stupid enough to actually use Itunes, or download DRM-crippled media. Some people fall for Nigerian 419-scams, too. What’s your point?

The Ipad is yet another extremely over-hyped piece of vanity-tech, in the same vein as the other vanity products it cranks out for Crapple Fanbois. (The Iphone, innumerable over-priced, exceedingly-trendy Ipod models whose only redeeming aspect is that their cases come in various colors, etc.)

Honestly, TAM, do you even *try* to come up with coherent arguments, or do you just type whatever comes into your head? I’d say the latter — “Gee, maybe if I mention something about the Ipad, they won’t notice what an inveterate dimwit I am, and will finally stop being mean to me just because I spam Techdirt with innumerable Sock-puppet accounts, and corporate-lobbyist propaganda!”

Yet another TAM(Pwn) — or should I say “Tampon” (since you’re *still* being an idiotic little pussy?)

The Anti-Mike (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13 Ask TAM

“wild west” is my own opinion, one that has been used in numerous media of the years to describe the many ways that web2.0 companies and business models casually ignore the law. The entire idea is to generate “top of mind” awareness of something before the lawsuits start flying, it seems.

As for Apple, the same thing could be said for selling music for a $1.29 or whatever. Based on the techdirt view of the world, anyone paying for music is the biggest sucker on the planet. But alas, millions of people do it every year, so they can’t be all wrong.

More than anything, it is a step towards a more legal and supportive system for content producers and consumers alike.

What I don’t get is that you keep going on about me. Get over it. You don’t like my ideas, my opinions, fine. Just grow up and move along. Otherwise, you risk joining RealDense in the “classic” segment, which is people who have little to add, few ideas or opinions of their own, and just a whole bunch of hatred against people who don’t toe the Techdirt party line outright.

Henry Emrich (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Ask TAM

Okay, TAM:

So how does it feel to be an *unpaid* shill, then?
Seriously, dude — if you’re NOT being paid to make a complete fool of yourself by being their ultimate fanboy, then you *should* be.

Doubly ironic, since your frantic fumblings here give the RIAA member corporations’ propaganda campaign a tremendous amount of *free* coverage.

NAMELESS.ONE says:

yea and about that acta and a 6$BILLION lawsuit

and when you consider that lawsuit in canada for 6 BILLION a rather low sum when you consider its mukltiple sales and for EACH cdr/album = multiple tracks and that these comapnies suddenly are pullign out of canada. DOES THAT GIVE YOU A HINT.

does that tell you they are winning for and with this secret treaty. THE MOST stupid thing anyone in govt can ever do is try and hide things they shouldn’t be form public.

Executive order GOOD SHOVE IT UP THE ARSE OF YOUR CITIZENS we don’t want it

join the face book group
its now international and it has 1300 people in a few days

Richard (profile) says:

In other words, it may not hurt Beyonce or AC/DC if you download their music. They are, after all, astonishingly wealthy. But it does hurt the record labels, which, in turn, cannot afford to sign, develop and promote as many new artists. Consequently, our music is becoming less diverse. In the long run, music lovers themselves are deprived.
Some questions:

Are sales of existing artists the only possible source of venture capital to fund new artist development?

If so how can a new label ever start up?

How did the first label start up?

(Clue – there is such a thing as a “bank”.)

What proportion of the artists that the labels sign actually make money for them?

Answer quite small.

Corollorary

Most of this money is wasted.

Solution – I’ll waste my own money thank you – I don’t want record labels doing it for me…

:) says:

Moving Forward.

The guy is funny.

Now he will have to befriend all those nerds he probably humiliated in high school oh well this is the revenge of the nerds LoL

On a serious note though, the guy should not complain because he is IT illiterate and never heard of Jamendo, Magnatune, slicethepie or others online labels that are appearing besides there is the “livenation” way that is signing artists into contracts, as the old is dying the new is being born.

Transformation will happen people are just waiting for the big ones to go belly up to fight for the scraps and build new models.

Maybe the public can buy those old catalogues for the price of bananas and put it all in the public domain that would be fantastic.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Moving Forward.

“because he is IT illiterate and never heard of Jamendo, Magnatune, slicethepie or others online labels”

To be fair, I am certainly not IT illiterate and I hadn’t heard of slicethepie (but then, I’m not an artist trying to sell music either).

Looks like a decent site. I’ve just signed up as a scout, I’ll give it a test run later after I finish work…. thanks!

:) says:

Re: Re: Moving Forward.

Hmmm…you never heard of netlabels?

http://www.netlabels.org/
http://www.archive.org/details/netlabels
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Netlabels

I’m lazy that is why after finding Jamendo I just stopped looking but there are hundreds of netlabels popping out all over the place and most of them give free music but I’m pick and only promote those who offer a CC 3.0 NC-SA license still you can look at the listings and find some that are good and share it with others.

And crowdsourcing is growing maybe looking at the examples of others the music industry can get some ideas ๐Ÿ™‚
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_crowdsourcing_projects

Government initiative to collect ideas for broadband policies.
http://broadband.ideascale.com/

Doubt it will happen though. I think they will be flipping on the deck gasping for air more likely.

Henry Emrich (profile) says:

Re: Re: Moving Forward.

“ROck and roll is dead!”

Two words: Punk Rock.
Two more words: DIY
Three more words: Wannabe corporate douchebag.

I have *no* respect whatsoever for self-idenfified “rock” musicians who turn into corporate lap-dogs. I have even *less* respect for indie musicians start fellating the RIAA *before* they even get signed, in the (most likely vain) hope that *they too* can someday become corporate lap-dogs.

RD says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Moving Forward.

“Correction: “DIY” would either be “three letters” or “three words”.

Saving TAM (or some other whackjob) from mentioning it.”

Yes exactly. Thats a TAM standard. When you cant argue the merits of your case, attack the grammar, claim they “arent getting” your points, then attack some other meaningless and minor point, then claim victory!

Richard (profile) says:

Hendrix and the internet

Can you, even for a moment, imagine Janis Joplin pouring over HTML manuals, or Jimi Hendrix spending hours each day spamming potential fans on MySpace? Not likely.

Hendrix was “into” all the new stuff of his day. At the time that meant the electric guitar and (sadly) drugs.

If he were alive today he would be into all the latest tech.

I do find it difficult to imagine him “spamming potential fans on MySpace” – but only because MySpace is already out of date.

It’s like saying that Beethoven, if alive today, would have ignored the electric guitar, synthesizer etc and stuck to the piano. It’s obvious that he wouldn’t…

Hephaestus (profile) says:

Re: Leveling the earnings curve?

“It looks like music is going back to the way things were before the recording industry created Stars. Fewer mega-millionaires, more people who make a reasonable living performing.”

That is one of the really big problems for the record labels. They are set up and structured to promote a few really big stars. They dont have the ability to support vast numbers of smaller stars. The ability to give the smaller artists the personalized service they need is also lacking. Smaller artists that dont fit into the cookie cutter mold they are used to get contracted and shelved.

The Anti-Mike (profile) says:

Re: Re: Leveling the earnings curve?

Actually, it’s a problem for acts that want to get known outside of their region of the world.

If the record label’s aren’t making the money, they won’t be investing the money. It takes money to make money, and record labels are pretty much the only group consistantly putting cash on the counter to make all of this go. Do they make a pot full of money when things go well? Yup. But they lose their asses often enough as well on acts that don’t turn out, that don’t catch the public’s ear… you know, those that don’t “CwF” through their actual product, music and image.

It’s easy to pee on the record labels, but it’s hard as hell to live without their investments.

Rose M. Welch (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Leveling the earnings curve?

Actually, it’s a problem for acts that want to get known outside of their region of the world.

That’s a good thing actually. If you’re an ‘act’ who ‘wants to be known’ then you probably don’t produce any art that I was to see or hear. I’m glad to hear that people who desire fame will have less avenues for shoving themselves in my face in our new draconian-label-less future. Yay!

If you produce art because you love to produce art, then your talent will connect you with others, especially if you share your art on the Internet. (You know, the Internet, where the entire world is one really big region?)

Henry Emrich (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Leveling the earnings curve?

Wait….TAM defending the corporate media megaliths on the grounds that they supposedly help artists get “known” outside of “their region of the world?”

Three words: DVD “region coding”.
Try to import a “foreign” film, and then tell me with a straight face that the corporate media megaliths are interested in getting artistic works “know outside of the region”.

(Hint: if region-coding was *really* just about ensuring that content displayed correctly, that could be implemented relatively easily. Nope, “region” coding in the DVD standard has everything to do with the desire for captive markets, staggered release-dates, and other assorted dirty industry tricks.

Half-way coherent try, though. ๐Ÿ™‚

The Anti-Mike (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Leveling the earnings curve?

Three words: DVD “region coding”.
Try to import a “foreign” film, and then tell me with a straight face that the corporate media megaliths are interested in getting artistic works “know outside of the region”.

You might be right if movies never got released outside of the region. Plenty of movies get released region to region. Yes, it is in part about the money that can be earned rather than pure are, but those considerations are put in the top before the initial investment is made in the product (movie, music, etc).

If would be more of an issue if everything was done in a common language. It is not. The market for movies from India in the world isn’t very large, but the market in their own country is solid. However, many of the best movies are released quietly all over the world for fans to enjoy.

Note in music that there are no restrictions. Music has always been an international game, not just a local or regional game. Even playing regionally “takes money to make money”, and that made money is really just there to pay off the investment and maybe have the money to make the next record. International is even harder, needing contacts and systems all over the world so that a small band from “yourtown, USA” can get enough exposure worldwide that they can tour 365 days a year and have full houses to play to.

It’s all in how you look at things, I think!

John Doe says:

He has the answer but just doesn't know it...

Yet hundreds of thousands of other musicians are competing for attention online.

So what he is saying is competition is killing rock-n-roll? This is pure entitlement mentality. I cut an album so people should start forking over money even if it sucks.

Without support from a record label, musicians must master the intricacies of search engine optimization, social networking, email blasts, and twittering — not to mention traditional tasks like booking shows. Not surprisingly, many musicians lack such skills.

Now he gets to the heart of the problem. The labels should be doing these things and aren’t.

In other words, it may not hurt Beyonce or AC/DC if you download their music. They are, after all, astonishingly wealthy. But it does hurt the record labels, which, in turn, cannot afford to sign, develop and promote as many new artists.

Those poor labels. They make bad decisions and are suffering for it but that is not their fault, right?

This guy has hit the nail on the head but doesn’t recognize it. The labels are killing themselves and taking some musicians with them. Demand more from the labels or find someone who gives you the service the modern world is demanding and only then will you find true success.

aguywhoneedstenbucks (profile) says:

Rock 'n Roll ain't noise pollution

Rock and roll ain’t gonna die.

This guy is just looking for a scapegoat for being an untalented schmuck. He doesn’t even seem to understand how it worked in the old days. You built up fans and got some buzz going (mostly by playing live every night that you could get a gig and talking to everyone you could hoping they could recommend you to a big name) until someone from a record company either heard of you on the indie music scene or happened to be in the same club you were playing in. Either that or you had to spend your time networking (and knowing how to network) to get your demo heard.

It seems that he’s dreaming of some golden age of music when you played and did absolutely nothing else. This has never existed. You never got a huge record deal just because you sent in a demo and took a few lousy black and white pics of yourself.

Chronno S. Trigger (profile) says:

Re: Rock 'n Roll ain't noise pollution

Back in the day there were thousands of bands competing for a vary small number of recording companies’ attention. Now it’s thousands of bands trying to compete for millions of people’s attention. So instead of 5 people looking at thousands, it millions looking at thousands. I like those odds.

John Doe says:

Re: Re

Not sure I understand you comment? The capitalists should understand capitalism which is survival of the fittest. Obviously when large organizations gain clout, they do tend to run to the government to have barriers created to protect their market share. But this is not the fault of capitalism, it is the fault of poor management of capitalism by government.

Henry Emrich (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re

“Capitalist should understand capitalism”

What, you mean the single most prevalent business-form out there, the publically-traded, for profit corporation?

Limited liability, a “veil” between corporate and “personal” assets, legal “personhood”, hell…thanks to the Supreme court’s recent fuckup (oops, I mean “decision”), the ability to essentially “buy” the electoral process outright…

Not to mention the fact that the mere existence of copyright and patent monopolies *by design* represent State micro-management of economic affairs to prevent “unauthorized” competition.

If capitalism was *really* about competition or “free enterprise” the corporation, copyrights, and patents wouldn’t even exist.

(Corporate) capitalists are *extremely* “statist” (to drag out some Libertarian/Objectivist/Right-wing buzzwords for Y’all) ๐Ÿ™‚

John Doe says:

Re: Re: Re: Re

Capitalism is not the problem, our government is the problem. Anything can be mismanaged and our economy is chief among those. Everything you point out is our government’s way of messing things up, so it points to government being bad, not capitalism.

Note, I am not saying capitalism can be turned loose to run on its own, because I don’t believe it can. It must be managed. It is the management of it that is failing in this country (US).

Free Capitalist (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Meaning vs. Media Meaning

I believe the problem here is that the meaning of the words “capitalist”, “capitalism” and, especially, “free market” has been twisted to represent the type of economy and business environment today.

Unfortunately, we do not have a free market, we have old-school mercantilism updated for fiat currencies in a global exchange. The mechanism of essentially legislating a business model is no different today than it was in the 1850s.

Free Capitalist loosely defined here.

Henry Emrich (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Meaning vs. Media Meaning

None of the points you both raised actually addressed the *real* issue, however. It’s all well and good to create some kind of imaginary straw-man version of “capitalism” involving free-markets and such for the purposes of theoretical discussion and such, but doing so completely side-steps the important issue of what REAL-WORLD “businessmen” really do.

You can blame government for allowing corporations, and legitimizing the notion of “intellectual property” through monopoly privileges like copyright/patent, but that *still* doesn’t absolve the BENEFICIARIES of such State-granted privileges from their share of the blame.

It also completely ignores the entire history of how (corporate) capitalism has evolved through-out history.

Read “People’s history of the United States” by Howard Zinn.

Hell, read basically anything by David Korten.

So we supposedly shouldn’t call the multi-national corporate oligarchy “capitalism”. Okay. Any suggestions for a different term?

Free Capitalist (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Meaning vs. Media Meaning

So we supposedly shouldn’t call the multi-national corporate oligarchy “capitalism”. Okay. Any suggestions for a different term?

Many on this site feel that the definition of “fascism” is an accurate description for the modern states. However I still feel “mercantilism” is more accurate considering it is basically guilds of powerful businesses that drive lawmakers worldwide.

NAMELESS.ONE says:

how its dead is propoganda

its the big labels getting finally what they deserve for all the lawsuits.
IN Other words they cant afford to keep suing people is why they stopped …those yacht building programs are taking up all the rest of the doh.

GE sells off universal shares,
Warner stops sales of dvdrs in Canada form its maker, then drops streaming music.

YA know this is there response to us against acta so they can appear to be making no money
all while they keep right on stealing off 300,000 Canadian artists
OH not all those in the 300,000 are Canadian , you might know Bruce Springsteen. HEY Bruce you were part of the obama thing hows it working for you now?

TAAM says:

Trollin Trollin Trollin RAWHIDE!

“You think I am a troll because I don’t agree with Mike.”

Lots of people disagree with Mike and are not considered trolls. Your a troll because you act like one. You repeat the same thing over and over hoping it will (I am guessing) become true if you say it enough.

Your a troll who rarely understands what Mike is even saying but posts anyways.

Your a troll for putting your worthless two cents in on almost EVERY techdirt article and then defending your position until everyone wants to throw up.

Your a troll through and through and nothing you can ever say will change that now.

TAM – Troll who is Attracted to Mike

Henry Emrich (profile) says:

Re: Trollin Trollin Trollin RAWHIDE!

Other indications of TAM’s trolldom:

1. It admits to using sock-puppet accounts. Nobody would resort to sock-puppeting *just* to weasel out of “personal” attacks — ESPECIALLY when the “personal” attacks are directed toward a pseudonym/handle *explicitly* designed to insult the blog-owner. (Come on, dude….”The Anti-Mike”? Pure Flamebait, with absolutely no other even halfway credible justification.)

2. It likes to pretend to be all offended when treated “unkindly”, but can’t even be bothered to *create AND MAINTAIN a single, consistent Techdirt-presence* — and corresponding identity.
Instead, It would rather stage the equivalent of a virtual “Punch And Judy show”, and then taunt Masnick after the fact, like some kind of fifth-rate “Supervillian” from a cheap knock-off of the James Bond films.

The Anti-Mike (profile) says:

Re: Re: Trollin Trollin Trollin RAWHIDE!

Sorry, but you are wrong.

1- “anti-mike” is an accurate reflection of my views. Mike looks at every violation, every breach of contract, heck possibly every murder as a change to “get some good publicity”. I look at it exactly the opposite way, when you give an inch today, you will give an inch tomorrow, and soon enough you are in the other team’s endzone wondering why some ugly mascot is in your face.

2 – I am offended by people who can’t tell the difference between trolling and just having an opposite opinion. Mike posts up stuff that is so easy to pick apart, he uses all sorts of wiggle room words, gives himself safe exits, and uses plenty of techniques to try to bootstrap his ideas into “facty things”.

As I always say, it is better to debate ideas than people. I have posted under other names in the past before i created The Anti Mike, I haven’t posted as any of them since. It was funny as heck posting as some of the people here who don’t log in (like yourself) and having the morons like RD nodding their virtual heads along with me. That is when I realized that it wasn’t about the ideas, it was about who was bringing them.

So, too bad, so sad, but that is the way it is.

Oh, I considered changing my name to Anti-RD, but everyone here is anti-moron, so I wouldn’t really stand out. ๐Ÿ™‚

RD says:

Re: Re: Re: Trollin Trollin Trollin RAWHIDE!

“1- “anti-mike” is an accurate reflection of my views. Mike looks at every violation, every breach of contract, heck possibly every murder as a change to “get some good publicity”. I look at it exactly the opposite way, when you give an inch today, you will give an inch tomorrow, and soon enough you are in the other team’s endzone wondering why some ugly mascot is in your face.”

Uh, copyright is not a football game man….

“2 – I am offended by people who can’t tell the difference between trolling and just having an opposite opinion. Mike posts up stuff that is so easy to pick apart”

As do you. Most of your pro-big-media-industry shill stuff is incorrect, deceitful, lacking, specious, and usually so poorly thought through that even relative newcomers to this site and its ideas are able to tear them apart.

“he uses all sorts of wiggle room words”

As do you. Constantly.

“gives himself safe exits”

As do you. “you missed my point”, “there must be more to the story”, etc.

“and uses plenty of techniques to try to bootstrap his ideas into “facty things”.

And you blatantly misrepresent ALL of these things, and then go on to take everyone to task for not understanding you.

“As I always say, it is better to debate ideas than people.”

HAHAHAHAHA! Good one. Hypocrisy 101: Speak out AGAINST something that YOU YOURSELF DO all the time,

“I have posted under other names in the past before i created The Anti Mike, I haven’t posted as any of them since. It was funny as heck posting as some of the people here who don’t log in (like yourself) and having the morons like RD nodding their virtual heads along with me. That is when I realized that it wasn’t about the ideas, it was about who was bringing them.”

You keep using me in this example, and I have challenged you to come up with ONE post where I “Agreed” with your sock puppet. It MAY have happened, but I can GUARANTEE you, I have not responded that way to very many posts. Mostly just to take apart arguments, or build off of others, and sometimes to Mike directly.

“So, too bad, so sad, but that is the way it is.”

Yes, the last refuge of someone who doesnt have a valid argument: dismiss it as the OTHER person somehow giving up, stop trying, and claim “acceptance”, until the next article when you start the shit all over again.

“Oh, I considered changing my name to Anti-RD, but everyone here is anti-moron, so I wouldn’t really stand out. :)”

Bwahaha! Look, the chimp made a funny! You really GOT ME with that zinger, yes you did!

Henry Emrich says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Trollin Trollin Trollin RAWHIDE!

So you admit to posting under identities others are using, then, simply because they “don’t log in?”

WTF kind of dishonest, troll weasel *are* you?
Not only are you too stupid to do anything but regurgitate corporate lobbyist talking-points and apologize for anything/everything the corporate lobbyists manage to do to IP “law”, but you *THEN* admit to (falsely) impersonating other posters here, simply on the grounds that they don’t “log in”?

You really *are* fucking pathetic, aren’t you?

You claim that it’s better to “debate ideas, not people”, but your HANDLE is explicitly premised on the notion of you being the ANTITHESIS to Mike’s “views” — or maybe to Mike himself?

Let’s see:

Mike is:

1. Smart.
2. Can actually formulate coherent points (and back them up with evidence such as off-site links).
3. Actually understands the history and original justification of so-called “intellectual property” privileges.
4. Understands how corporations/lobbyist front-groups have been twisting and distorting such laws, with extremely detrimental ramifications for the wider culture.
5. Doesn’t shy away from highlighting and criticizing such conduct, when needed.

YOU:

1. Not very intelligent (although you seem to believe that you are, in that self-important “Looky, I read Heinlein” pretentious-dickhead type way.)

2. Completely, willfully ignorant of the history, or original purpose of IP monopoly privileges, and totally disinterested in whether they eventually expire or not.
(Hell, you actually tried to justify “clawing back” stuff where the monopolies had already lapsed, because of a FILLIBUSTER. Great, the IP lobby gets “do-overs”.)

3. Totally, relentlessly apologetic in regard to whatever the corporate megaliths manage to *do* with such IP privileges — up to, and including, the total destruction of the Public Domain itself.

4. Cannot formulate coherent arguments. Cannot provide off-site links (except for links to known corporate front-organizations’ propaganda/disinformation campaigns).

Yup, “The Anti-Mike” is a pretty damn appropriate Handle.

Dumbass.

Henry Emrich (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Trollin Trollin Trollin RAWHIDE!

“It was funny as heck posting as some of the people here who don’t log in (like yourself) and having the morons like RD nodding their virtual heads along with me. That is when I realized that it wasn’t about the ideas, it was about who was bringing them.”

Was this before, or after you started using the TAM-puppet?

You really *are* a sociopathic little twat, aren’t you?

The Anti-Mike (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Trollin Trollin Trollin RAWHIDE!

Tee-hee, you guys are now officially both classics.

Henrybot and RealDense. A great pair!

RealDense, just a reminder, I have been in business longer than Mike, and I will likely be in business long after he has gone on to a career in a nameless office somewhere. Mike has lead you to believe I am some sort of business failure, yet here I am, still working and still making a good living.

For the rest of the comments, all I can say is that I don’t take your comments very seriously, as you have shown yourself to be a very shallow attack dog, not a very intelligent poster. In fact, I have rarely seen you post anything here except attacks against me personally. I have to wonder if you have any original thoughts, or are you so full of crap that you can’t manage anything past venomous attacks?

Too bad, you are passionate, but sort of in that short bus sort of way.

Henry Emrich (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Trollin Trollin Trollin RAWHIDE!

“Oh, I considered changing my name to Anti-RD, but everyone here is anti-moron, so I wouldn’t really stand out. :)”

We’re obviously “anti-moron”: we don’t like YOU very much, do we, TAM?

Jesus….not only can’t you form coherent industry-apologist arguments, you can’t even formulate a snappy comeback. (That’s why the “Grandma’s coat-hanger” thing made you mad — because you didn’t think of it FIRST!) ๐Ÿ™‚

Wow….just…..wow.

ant anti mike says:

agree with both henry and paul

its why i choose the nick anti anti mike if hes going to harass and cajole the users i figure il come each day and focus RIGHT ON THE TROLL , the rest of you ignore and have fun, he is after all COMPLETELY lying to you all about who he works for and what his vocation is.

I would argue we could even vote on having all his posts moved to the a new forum called troll-IT, and we can all get wicked laughs at how the ndustry tries to scrw , lie cheat and price gouge and sue dead people.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=288885939910
ACTA END THE SEC RACY NOW
300 people joined since last night there is now 1600 people in 3 days.
when word gets out TAM you will see how many millions your are fighting around the world and POOR FACEBOOK i can’t imagine the HORROR of this kinda facebook will give them in bandwidth grief…..
pirates, hackers IT professionals, WEB USERS, lawyers , innovators creators, THE WHOLE WORLD SHALL YE KNOW IS NOT YOURS

idea says:

i have this hacker site that i say to people this

I will link to your bands website as long as:
A) you give freely music via streaming or downlaod
B) you are not signed to any labels or in any contract long term ( excpetion would be touring )

i go on to tell most that they shuld list tour times and other things that can or do make em a buck. YOU’D be surprised how popular this is. and undergorund hacker site actually helpng musicians and the users OMG WHAT NOVELTY IS THIS.

The site will and is getting revamped a bit so i have it offline wheni feel its ready ill hsow this place what i mean.
I MAKE NO MONEY form it either.
even though i am pondering creating my own searh engine using a open source engine that has a spider and could say charge like a one time fee with the above two points as a contract ….
this is innovation and creativity at its peak, all wihtout you and your systems.

Benjamin Wade Inman (user link) says:

Dead or Alive?

The music industry is far from dead! If anything, it’s going to be stronger than ever, and yes labels will still be needed by artists in order to break into the mainstream. With there being so many choices available in the marketplace, artists must have a strong marketing strategy properly executed in order to stand out from the others.

Whomever said that managing the plethora of social networking sites each artist has now is clearly not utilizing these sites to their fullest potential. It takes a tremendous investment of time and resources, even from a grass-roots approach, to effectively market an artist. Therefore, unless artists have a large budget to work with, they will certainly need the backing of labels to break them into the marketplace.

As for Rock ‘N’ Roll, it will never die, it will only grow from here. There is obviously some major changes that are being made within the industry before our very eyes and it will be nothing less than exciting to see where it goes from this point. It should be interested to say the least.

Regards,

Benjamin Wade Inman
Managing Partner
ZONG Music Partners LLC
Nashville, TN
info@zongmusic.com
http://www.twitter.com/zongmp
http://www.myspace.com/zongmusicpartners

Pessimistic Optimist says:

Seriously?

Trolls. There is nothing they love more than hi-jacking a topic and becoming the center of attention, all while stirring up everyone into a mad frenzy. How can some of you regulars still not see the obvious after all this time? Replying only encourages more of his bad behavior by showing him that he succeeded at getting under your skin. You are likely pro-pirate. He clearly despises you for this and always will most likely. Get over it and move on. Nothing you say will change his mind so don’t waste your time.

Want more evidence? How about the fact that no human on Earth can possibly be right or wrong 100% of the time. Naturally some of Mikes articles come close to the bulls-eye (often striking a nerve) while others may be way off in deep space. Despite this, nearly every comment TAM has ever made presupposes that Mike is automatically wrong 100% of the time regardless, sometimes even in the face of indisputable facts. Only someone with a personal grudge would overlook something so obvious. On the very rare occasion someone (other than Mike) manages to get through to TAM and show him he is in error, TAM typically shrugs it off as if he always knew that or uses his favorite “out of context” excuse, just like all the others do who share his personality type. I know this type well because I was raised by one; my father whom I work very hard not to be like. This type is physically unable to admit when they are wrong. I’m not saying he always is. On very rare occasion he may actually say something that has some validity. The regulars know this is very rare however and that trying to draw it out into something resembling an interesting discussion very quickly decays into faulty logic bordering on gibberish.

Simple application of logic, along with his choice of user ID, tells us without any shadow of a doubt that he is a troll who posts with one single minded purpose. It is because of these facts, as well as everything he has posted to date (all available for public scrutiny) that I proclaim he truly is both a shill and a troll whether he believes himself to be or not. Please don’t hate me, I’m just calling it like I see it. As the saying goes, if it quacks like a duck and walks like duck…

The only thing that makes me wonder is why one would put so much time and effort into such childish behavior. Considering how often articles are posted and the resulting volume of comments there are to each, TAM must be on here 24/7 hitting refresh over and over. I wish I had as much free time to spend writing comments as he clearly does. Based on my experience, everybody is motivated to do the things they do for one reason or another, no exceptions. I can only suppose that he must get something personally gratifying out of it, otherwise there would be no point. If he is being honest (doubtful) and it’s not money as he claims, then it must be some else. Deep seething hatred perhaps? It does slip out occasionally in his comments. Then again, perhaps he does it simply because he gets some sort of perverse pleasure out of seeing how many puppets he can get to dance. Take your pick.

We humans aren’t all that complex and 99% of what we do can be attributed to emotion. You just can’t escape evolution and our instincts to survive. Avarice, fear, hate and a healthy does of self-centered ego are conducive to that end and thus tend to be the most common motivators. Heck, I’d be willing to bet real money on those. It’s certainly not going to be out the goodness of The Anti-Mikes heart, wholly done as a public service for our benefit. That is unless he’s super naive, which I suppose is always a possibility in this crazy world. Still, I think that is highly unlikely. It’s clear from his replies and inability to maintain a conversation that is both intelligent and courteous that he doesn’t really care about anybodies opinion either, and that his comments are carefully crafted to elicit only one type of response from you all; anger.

Normally I would just ignore him like I try to do with all forum pests, but that gets difficult when the bulk of comments are directed at him instead of being on topic and relevant to the article Mike has posted. I don’t always agree with him either but at least I try to honestly explain my reasoning as best I can and, if possible, hypothesize on how something could be improved upon. Simply stating an opinion, which all of us already know you have, is far too easy.

Maybe I’m idealistic, but I really do believe that if we all dropped the US vs THEM attitudes and worked together towards a common goal, humanity could change the world for the better. Sadly the pessimist in me says humanity hasn’t yet culturally evolved far enough to put our selfish ways aside in order to do what so clearly needs to be done. I’m probably not too far off the mark when I state that this will likely be what ultimately undoes humankind. The clock is definitely ticking.

I guess this is just my long winded way of saying, DON”T FEED THE TROLL (OR HIS PUPPETS)! For whatever it’s worth, based on his style, grammar, and non-wavering stance, I would hazard a guess that TAM also comments as Reasoned Mind over at TorrentFreak. Of course, I could easily be wrong and apologize if I am. However if it is, where the heck does he find all that free time? I’m so envious.

Anyways, thanks for reading. ๐Ÿ˜‰

Pessimistic Optimist says:

Re: Re: Seriously?

If my comment had been directed at TAM, then yes. It was not directed at TAM however, but instead at those that keep encouraging him. Every reply elicited and/or directed at TAM makes him swell with a sense of pride as surely as the sun rises and sets. Do not feed the troll is as apt a term as any I can think of because that is exactly what many here keep doing. The moment you stop feeding coal to the boiler, it loses all it’s steam.

Posts upon posts upon posts. They go around and around. I wish all the good folks here could realize just how often they are allowing someone completely unimportant to pull their strings. How many months will it take before many of you realize that winning an argument with a troll is impossible? Even if you believe you could win, why would winning some utterly unimportant, soon to be forgotten argument against a complete stranger on the internet, matter so much to you? How long until you realize you’re wasting your time, and that you could have spent it doing something far more constructive with your life? It’s so short and goes by way too fast to waste it on some inconsiderate know-it-all jerk who obviously has a grudge against Mike. His chosen user name says it all. It doesn’t get any more obvious than that.

The last thing I’m going to say (hopefully) about this is how funny The Anti-Mikes comments are when Mike writes an article or comment sharing relatively the same stance. Instead of simply agreeing with Mike or (heaven forbid!) thanking him, TAM always get indignant as if Mike isn’t allowed to share any of the same opinions as he. It’s just more evidence that TAM is a troll with an axe to grind. TAM clearly sees Mike as an enemy no matter what is said.

It’s all about being a nemesis for the sole sake of being a nemesis. Negative people love nothing more than making those around them feel negative too. The confrontational comments TAM makes are the means with which he continually perpetuates this and not at all about having a logically reasoned debate nor evidence to support his position. Like I said before, opinions are easy. They’re also a dime a dozen. In other words they’re worthless. The reason we tend to give them far too much weight can be complex, but I would guess comes primarily from wanting the approval of our peers while growing up. TAM is not one of those peers nor has he ever show himself deserving of the title. Stop trying to get him to approve of what you have to say because he really doesn’t care. People also need stop treating the opinions TAM continually professes as if they matter as well. They matter about as much as mine do, which is nil.

Negative comments that are pessimistic don’t move us forward, only constructive ones do. That is where the wisdom in sharing lays. Hopefully everyone here will consider that before hurriedly hitting the reply button in the future, even when they feel angry. Never let anyone get under your skin. I know deep down that you are all better than that. Techdirt is a great site and I like it primarily because Mike is good at picking apart self deluding faux-logic. I may not always agree with some of his conclusions, but that doesn’t give me the right to be an inconsiderate ass. So you can either jump into the muck with TAM or rise above it, which I guess is all I’m really trying to get across.

Ed Donnelly (user link) says:

Deluded Young musicians

Mike,
Great post. I meet a lot of up and coming acts that get the current landscape (recorded music is free, fans are valuable, make money at the live show) and even more who are still waiting for the fat cat from the label to write them a million dollar check. The reality is: “good” music has never been represented on the charts or commercial radio without – “radio promo”. And radio promo was and is just a straight bribe to program directors to play a certain track. So you can whine and pine away for the good ‘ol days or 1) Write and play great songs in front of people to create a long term sustainable career or 2) Get a bunch of cash and bribe folks to spin your record until you can get enough cash to bribe them to play the next one.

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