Students Given Detention Just For Becoming 'Fans' Of A Page Making Fun Of A Teacher
from the not-a-fan dept
We’ve been seeing more and more stories like this, as various schools seem to overstep the boundaries of school property into the online world to try to regulate student speech. It’s highly questionable as to whether or not they have the legal right to do so (and, in fact, there are cases that suggest that there’s a significant limit to how much schools can even prevent students from speaking out while on campus as well). This latest case, sent in by reader Keyop, highlights a high school in Syracuse that gave detention to a group of students who had joined a Facebook group that made fun of a teacher. The school claims that the page about the group was derogatory and libelous. Even if we accept that’s true, this seems to step over the line in a variety of ways. First, students always make fun of teachers they don’t like. It’s part of being in high school. Pretending you can stop that isn’t going to change the human nature of teenagers. Second, even if the content is libelous, at most, shouldn’t the detention have only been given to those who actually posted the libelous information, rather than to everyone who became a “fan” or “member” of the group?
Comments on “Students Given Detention Just For Becoming 'Fans' Of A Page Making Fun Of A Teacher”
Maybe you can tell the Syracuseans that.
Or maybe you can try to understand that everywhere’s not America.
If Syracuse is anything like India, (and a lot of places are like India when it comes to this) schools there have a long-established history and tradition of authoritarianism… to the point that people will be surprised if they’re not authoritarian.
So why complain about ONE particular instance? Probably not an isolated incident.
Re: Re:
Ummmm,
You do realize of course … that would be Syracuse, NY (in the US)
Re: Re:
The last time that I check Syracuse New York is part of the United States. You might want to buy a map.
Re: Re: Re:
Last time I checked, there’s a Syracuse in Italy that’s been around a lot longer than the one in NY. Maybe you should buy a map that shows more of the world than the U S of A.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Last time I checked the link that was part of the original posting, it was about the Syracuse in New York. Maybe you should RTFA instead of slamming someone for being ethnocentric.
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
alright, all of you are suspended for going off topic
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
My bad… what else can I say?
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
You are suspended for being associated with an off topic comment. I am suspended now for pointing that out. Everyone else is suspended for reading it.
Re: Re: Re: Get a grip
Last time I checked, there’s a Syracuse in Italy that’s been around a lot longer than the one in NY. Maybe you should buy a map that shows more of the world than the U S of A.
Perhaps you should actually click on the link in the story so you don’t embaress yourself. The link CLEARLY goes to a newsite in Syracus, NY.
Not Italy… not outside the US. Syracuse, NY.
Geez… 2 seconds and you would have hidden the fact that you’re an idiot a little longer…
Re: Re: Re: Italy???
let’s see,,,,, Syracuse, NEW YORK,,, Syracuse, UTAH,,, Syracuse, Sicily,,, Syracuse Greece,,, Maybe some people need to do more than get a map.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
If you had bothered to read the article before posting you might not look quite so stupid.
From the article.
NORTH SYRACUSE, NY (WSYR-TV) — Students from Roxboro Road Middle School.
Now go home.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
You dumbshit, read the article. Believe it or not, SOME Americans DO KNOW that there is a world outside our borders. You see, a good number of towns and cities in the U.S. were named after other European towns and cities.
What a fucking moron.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Mr. Comboman. A map larger than the US would be no more value in this case than a truck load of dead rats in a tampon factory. There could be eleventy-billion Syracuses in the world, some younger, some older than Syracuse, NY. Events do not necessarily get changed in venue to the oldest place bearing the name. The article quite clearly states this is Syracuse, NY.
Re: Re:
Syracuse, it’s in New York, which is in the USA. Why, then, does Indian school tradition matter in this case?
Re: Re: Re:
Geographical confusion; I assumed it was the Syracuse in Italy.
Re: Re:
I have to wonder if I read this comment right…
Do you think Syracuse is a country?
Re: Re:
This particular Syracuse IS in America, so it’s far more likely to be like America than India – RTFA and become enlightened before you post.
Re: Re:
What ARE you talking about?
It is true that “everywhere’s not America.” In this case, however, the city of Syracuse, in the state of New York, in the USA, is.
Re: Syracuse
> Maybe you can tell the Syracuseans that.
> Or maybe you can try to understand that everywhere’s
> not America.
But Syracuse is America, dumbass. It’s Syracuse, New York, USA.
Re: Re:
Sorry to burst your “Americans are all ignorant and intolerant of other cultures” bubble, but the article is about Syracuse, New York, in the United States.
Becoming a fan is like signing your name in agreement.
50 years ago, someone might have put something rude on the blackboard or put up a paper on the wall. Becoming a fan at that point would have been signing “I agree – bob” or something like that on the paper.
There is a huge difference between students making fun of a teacher over lunch “Mr Jones is a weenie!”, and actually taking it public. They crossed the line along the way, and they pay the price. To be honest, they should be lucky the teacher isn’t one of those Americans with a lawyer on speed dial, as the content might have been actionable.
Re: Re:
Cane them all I say.
We can not tolerate even one free thinking individual on our society. Discipline needs to be very strict in school so that these citizens become accustomed to the way it will be under their overlords heel.
( just in case – yes it was sarcasm)
Re: Re:
Ever used Facebook?
If the page is set to private, you can’t see what’s on the page without becoming a ‘fan’. Same as with people not being able to see your info, unless people become “friends”.
So, no it is not like signing your name in agreement. How can you agree with something that you haven’t even read yet?
Would I risk detention if I became a “Facebook fan” of TAM?
Re: Re:
I’d enjoy seeing the teacher try to sue those who became a fan. Nobody has a right to not have their feelings hurt online. It’s happened to me before, I’ve been outed IRL, nastily, but doesn’t matter, free speech is free speech. Plus, there are ways to speak back. 😉
The answer to the problem of online defamation is more speech. Just like with copyright, the answer to the problems of artists and studios is more sharing. Sharing is CARING, TAM, didn’t you know that?
Re: Re: Re:
The only thing TAM knows is that artists and right’s holders must be protected at any cost. Even if the artists and right’s holders don’t want protection because they feel they can protect themselves.
Artists and right’s holders are weak and TAM is strong!
Re: Re: Re: Re:
troll.
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
Pot meet kettle. Kettle meet pot.
Re: Re:
huh-wah?
I guess I missed the part where “Becoming A Fan” on Facebook was some sort of binding contract stating that you apparently agree with every comment posted in the group. To fix your analogy, becoming a fan is like coming into the classroom every day and reading what’s on the blackboard/paper on the wall and adding your name to the list of “People who’ve read this.”
Having been in a similar situation as this before (except my friends and I were suspended for it), I’d be interested to see what comments the superintendent felt were libelous. IANAL but from what I understand opinion, so long as it is not expressed as fact, is not libel. “I think Mr. Teacher is a knob-gobbling pedo” is hurtful and mean, but its an opinion and would likely not hold up in court. “Mr. Teacher likes little boys” probably falls into libel. But, that libel only applies to the person making the statement. Making that statement surrounded by a group of ten people does not in fact make those 10 people guilty of libel (or in this case slander). As far as I can tell with regards to the law, there’s no “huge difference.” Making a verbal statement over lunch is slander, writing it down is libel. The only difference is the context of the statement.
Also, last I checked, there’s no asterisk by freedom of speech in the Constitution. There’s no rider that says none of this applies until you’re 18. Schools would like to think differently, and most of the time, everybody gives in because 1) somehow “it’s for the good of the children.” and 2) wasting a few afternoons sitting at school is cheaper than going to court to prove a point.
Re: Re:
Can I be a TAM fan? Pretty please?
/sarcasm
Re: Re:
“50 years ago…”
Congratulations on accurately stating the answer whilst simultaneously failing to realise it.
Re: Nonsense
> Becoming a fan is like signing your name in agreement.
Ummm.. yeah. So?
Agreeing with libel or defamation doesn’t make one legally liable for that defamation. And unless the laws have changed back when I was in school, the administration couldn’t legally sanction kids for agreeing with someone who makes fun of a teacher (especially when it’s done off school property and not during school hours). They could only punish the kid who made fun of the teacher, and then only if he did it in school.
Re: Re:
Saying that “Becoming a fan is like signing your name in agreement.” is about as accurate as saying that a subscription to a newspaper equals an endorsement of whatever is printed on it at any given time.
If all the suspended students were involved in making disparaging comments you might have a point. However, in yet another attempt to simply go against whatever Mike writes, you miss the point.
Re: Re: Re:
No, sorry, doesn’t matter how many posts you make in a row, you cannot misrepresent what I said.
I said it’s like signing you name in agreement. Imagine a sheet of paper on the wall that says “This teacher is an idiot” and you add your name on it and say “yeah, I agree”. It’s pretty much in that sense.
When I join techdirt, I am admitting to enjoying tech and dirt. If I was a member of “I think obama is a dictator ass” then well, draw your conclusions.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
I’ll buy part of your argument, if I become a fan of a page on Facebook I am agreeing to the title of the page. That however does not mean I’m agreeing with all the comments posted on that page.
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
Even that part is shaky. Many people join groups on Facebook just so they can see what is posted on it. Indeed, some people are so overtaken by the “There is someone wrong on the internet!” feeling that they will join a group they disagree with specifically for the purpose of posting their disagreement on that group’s wall/discussions.
I know a whole bunch of Sarah Palin’s fans just enjoy seeing what verbal diarrhea she’ll come up with next, like watching a train wreck in action. It’s just an unfortunate case of mistaken semantics that Facebook chooses to refer to “wanting to see/participate in the content” of X with “becoming a fan” of X. They are not always the same.
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
Precisely. The only way you can join in a discussion in a Facebook group is to join it – so even if you wish to disagree with it, you have to become a ‘fan’ of it.
Really, it’s a fail on FB’s part, making you have to become a ‘fan’ of, say the KKK, to be able to tell the other members what dufuses they are. All the more reason though that people should look at what is actually said in the group. Certainly it’s unfair (no matter what TAM says, it’s not quite like he says) to penalise people for joining, but without them saying anything really bad themselves. The ‘subscribing to’ model mentioned above is a much better model. After all, by TAM’s argument, by ‘joining’ Techdirt, he has obviously automatically ‘agreed’ with any posting that Mike makes on it. Oh wait…
How long before kids start suing teachers for libel on their report cards? 🙂
Re: Re:
By your analogy, because you’ve created an account here on TechDirt and follow the articles (perhaps you’ve signed up for the RSS feed?) you agree with everything that is said here.
But, that doesn’t appear to be the case…thus your analogy is rather busted.
Re: Re: Re:
Meh, remind me to read ALL the comments before I post 😉
Re: Re:
There is no text when “becoming a fan” that states “By becoming a fan of this page, you are endorsing all postings made in this group 100% without question.”
Becoming a “fan” of a Facebook group is the same as subscribing to a newsfeed. It is not an endorsement.
And it is not an analogy to signing “me too” to a disparaging comment. Writing on the Wall of the group “yeah, I agree that XXX sucks” is an analogy to signing “me too”. Simply joining the group is the same as reading it and saying “I read this and would like to read it again and keep up with changes made to this.”
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There is a huge difference between saying “I agree” and saying “that is true”.
One asserts an opinion, while the other asserts a fact.
the school is teaching the kind
that they must hide their tracks in the internet. How to do it is left as an exercise 😉
You were kidding, right?
Anubhav Chattoraj, please tell me you were being facetious.
Re: You were kidding, right?
I completely mistook the location and the cultural connotations, so it doesn’t matter either way now.
If you must know, though, I was trying to say that complaining about one incident is useless unless you complain about the underlying public morality.
yes, it's Syracuse, NY
Yes, this is a school in Syracuse, NY. They interviewed one of the kids who got detention on the local news. She said she became a fan of the page because she was curious what everyone was saying. She never posted anything herself. Her mother was also quite ticked-off that the school never contacted her to let her know this was going on. The student who created the page got suspended.
Although the legality of this is in question, at the very least I think the kids learned a very valuable lesson about posting information in such a public place as the internet. It’s well know that employers often check the Facebook profiles of potential employees. You need to think about what type of image you might be portraying of yourself by the information you post and the pages you become a fan of.
Re: yes, it's Syracuse, NY
Wait… What lesson did you say you think they learned? Oh, to become freaking turtles, afraid to look at anything in curiosity in case someone slaps them on the nose with a paper like the little bitch everyone wants them to become. Right. Perhaps you should read what you just posted and think about it a moment. These kids are being punished not for posting anything. Not for even really agreeing with the content. No, they’re being punished for being curious enough to ‘friend’ the page so they can access the content to see what the fuss is about. Yeah. That’s so totally fair, isn’t it? That’s pretty much the same as the cops pulling you over to give you a ticket for speeding because someone asked you how fast your car can go.
Poor analogy, but I hope you get the idea. Probably not, but worth the try.
Re: yes, it's Syracuse, NY
If anything, I think the kids were taught to lock down their facebook pages.
Instead of being open about their actions, now they have learned to do it in private b/c they might get in trouble otherwise. Good job!
Actually, it really is a valuable life lesson in this day in age. 😛
Social networking or "BIG BROTHER"
Here is a valid reason for NOT engaging in any of the so called ‘social networking’ sites. Or at the very least doing so with an anonymous entity.
This is the very reason I have no internet “friends” and do not indulge. No facebook, myspace, twitter etc.
Better safe than sorry.
Besides all this I believe that all these such sites create and present a security problem to the user and the user’s computer.
Re: Social networking or "BIG BROTHER"
Online privacy controls do exist, you know.
Re: Social networking or "BIG BROTHER"
Better safe than sorry.
You never leave your house? The world is a dangerous place– it’s better to just lie down and wait for death– better safe than sorry, right?
/sarcmark
You know, if this were a bunch students slamming another student on Facebook, it’d be called “bullying,” and the school would be expected to take action. Parents would be screaming for it.
How come the rules are different if the target is an adult?
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Any teacher that can’t take indirect comments from a bunch of high school students should never be in that job in the first place. Yeah, physical attacks and/or allegations of child abuse would be one thing, but semi-anonymous comments on Facebook? No.
Children are children and adults are adults. The teacher is meant to be a role model, not a whiny teenager too wrapped up in hormones and self doubt to see perspective. Hence, the different standard.
Also, how do they know the name on the account was the person who posted the comment? Getting the kid you want to bully into detention by hacking their account is exactly the kind of thing a high school bully would do.
Re: Re: @PaulT
I agree that teachers need to know their role in the classroom, and be able to deal with students. The problem that I see here is what would be considered bullying or harrasment in any other place of work. Nobody should be subjected to that.
Aside from the issue about the teachers rights, schools rights etc., I’d like to comment on the general issue of character education. We certainly don’t want to be raising a generation of people who go out of their way to do hurtful things. Freedom of speech is one thing, but we want to education our future generations how to act in society. This does not include bullying or harrassment in any way shape or form. Schools and parents alike should take it upon themselves to develop character in our youth.
Just the honest opinion of a Canadian reader.
Re: Re: Re: @PaulT
That’s all true, however I think that there’s a fine line to walk. Come down too hard on activities like this, and all you’ll do is force the criticism elsewhere. probably to a venue that’s harder to monitor and can be used for actual harm to a fellow student. The fact is that while it’s wrong for students to mock a teacher, it’s always happened and always will. If you’re dealing with teenagers, “I felt offended” is a pretty low bar to set for punishing them.
Now, students should be made aware of the possible repercussion of what they’re doing, but unless there was some real threat behind their actions it’s no different to what’s been happening for centuries via email, text messages, paper notes and after-school gossip. I know that I mocked my teachers behind their backs on occasion, inside and outside of school, and I was hardly a bully or trouble maker.
All that’s happened here is that the students have gotten the message “don’t use Facebook, the school will spy on you” and that’s hardly going to address whatever problem they had with the teacher in the first place – real or imagined. I will happily take back my comments if it turns out that the actions of the students online were actually harmful to anyone who belongs in that career, but sending kids to detention for the online equivalent of saying “I agree” is not a way to deal with problems, especially if such things are being said outside of school grounds.
Re: Re: Re: @PaulT
> The problem that I see here is what would be
> considered bullying or harrasment in any other
> place of work. Nobody should be subjected to that.
Except teachers are government employees and criticizing (and yes, even ridiculing) the government is one of the fundamental freedoms guaranteed to citizens of this country.
That’s the burden you accept when you decide to work for the government. Other citizens can protest you, make fun of you, call you names, etc. Try being a cop for a while and see what happens. It’ll make a silly Facebook page look tame by comparison.
You just suck it up and ignore it or find another line of work.
Re: Re:
You know, if this were a bunch students slamming another student on Facebook, it’d be called “bullying,” and the school would be expected to take action. Parents would be screaming for it.
But, it isn’t what happened is it? Rather it is a bunch of little tin gods ignoring the First Admendment of students because it interfers with their delusions of power. Those educators responsible should be dismissed and their pensions should go to the college funds of the children that they are attempting to oppress. That would be a real education.
However, what’s going to happen is that the taxpayers will pay for their mistakes and they will learn nothing.
Re: Re: Re:
But, it isn’t what happened is it? Rather it is a bunch of little tin gods ignoring the First Admendment of students because it interfers with their delusions of power. Those educators responsible should be dismissed and their pensions should go to the college funds of the children that they are attempting to oppress. That would be a real education.
Yes it is what happened. The kids were bullying the teacher. Bullying doesn’t need to be physical. If they bullied another student they would also have been suspended, and if they didn’t then parents would be outraged over the lack of action. There should be no difference if they bully a teacher. If the school ignored their actions they’ll be extremely unfair on the children. They need to learn a lesson while at school before it’s ingrained into them as adults. Try doing that to your boss or workmates in the future and keeping your job. I have no idea what the libelious comments were however I work at a school(not as a teacher, in an admin role) and the list of guidelines that we need to follow(male staff have to follow more than females) under the “Protect yourself from students from making stuff up” is very long. We don’t need children doing this kind of thing and other adults supporting them.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
When did saying that someone was bad at their job become bullying? Wouldn’t that make performance reviews bullying or saying that the service in a restaurant is bad bullying?
By your logic you’re bullying me!
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
Child psychology anyone? Do you believe everything that comes out of a teenager’s mouth? It seems like you have had little to no experience interacting with adolescents since your time (20+ years ago?) as a high school student. Get. a. grip.
Re: Re:
“and the school would be expected to take action”
By whom? Facebook is not school property. If the students weren’t using school computers to post the comments on Facebook, it is none of the school’s business at all. It is up the parents to deal with this situation.
‘Made fun of the teacher’ – but the report states that the comments were bordering on being libelous.
I don’t understand the parents and others who pipe up in support of the children. It’s not about rights, but decent behavior. The children should be taught that first.
Re: Re:
It’s not about rights, but decent behavior.
Since when is abuse of power decent behavior?
Re: Re:
But who’s job is it to teach decent behavior?
Should the school be teaching decent behavior at the expense of limiting free speech? Who gets to determine what is decent? If the speech is not libelous (remembering that you even said it was bordering on it), why should the school be issuing punishment?
I’m in favor of parents teaching their kids to be decent people (we need more of that), but I am never in favor of an educational organization (especially a government run one) trampling free speech to make people ‘decent’. Allowing the government to tell us what is decent is a really bad idea as history has proven it is a far too slippery slope to stop on.
I think the parents involved should be fighting this with the school and punishing their kids as they see fit for the bad behavior.
Re: Re: Re:
Who says the parents can’t fight it? In many states, parents can simply sign a paper that states that they refuse to allow their child to serve the detention, or that the detention is too burdensome due to job commitments, etc. I don’t know whether NY is that way or not, but that may be an avenue.
This wasn’t about decent behavior. This was about students attempting to undermine the authority of a teacher. Does it happen all the time? Of course. That doesn’t mean that the school will let it go unpunished when they catch someone. The fact is, people today get outraged over really stupid stuff. I think the school was silly to have done what they did, and they will only draw more attention to the content in the long run. However, if a person was fired for comments they made about their boss on Facebook, no one would be complaining, even if it was a government job. These kids are receiving a real world lesson: you have the right to free speech, but that does not mean there will be no consequences for it.
In this case, the consequences were very minor. They had to sit at a desk for a few minutes. Whoopee. If that’s all it takes to bring the parents to arms, they can send their kids to a private school, or homeschool, where they have more impact on the rules. I would be using the opportunity to teach my kids a thing or two about respect.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Just noticed this in the article:
“Anderson says he should have been contacted before his daughter was punished and refuses to let her attend after-school detention.” (Emphasis is mine.)
So, yes, as I suggested above, the parent has the right to override the school in this case.
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
So send your kids to a different school if you don’t like it when your kid breaks school rules.
I hope the school suspends her for missing that detention, or even better, hold back here grades when she applies to go to a university.
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
“So send your kids to a different school if you don’t like it when your kid breaks school rules.”
Yeah, that’s what consumerism is about.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
“If that’s all it takes to bring the parents to arms, they can send their kids to a private school, or homeschool, where they have more impact on the rules. I would be using the opportunity to teach my kids a thing or two about respect.”
Because parents and citizens, who fund public schools with THEIR tax dollars, should have no impact on the very schools they fund.
Re: Re:
> I don’t understand the parents and others who
> pipe up in support of the children. It’s not about
> rights, but decent behavior. The children should be
> taught that first.
Parents can do both. If it were my kid, I’d privately take measures to punish / teach him/her that it was wrong behavior, but I’d publicly stand up against the abuse of power by the school.
wondering
but isn’t this more of a sign they should get rid of the teacher instead of punishing the students? also this doesn’t sound much different from ratemyprofessor.
OUTRAGE...over detention?
Seriously? Detentions get thrown around unjustly all the time. Talk at the wrong moment. Look at the teacher the wrong way. Sit next to the wrong person who talks to YOU at the wrong moment. Detention. Really, it’s what, an hour of someone’s life? We’re not talking about suspensions or expulsion here. We’re not even talking about something that goes on the students’ records. We’re talking about the mildest form of punishment the school can possibly dish out. Of all the things to get outraged about, this is a bit of a joke. Was it silly of the school? Yes. Did it show a complete misunderstanding of how Facebook works? Yes. Is it worth raising such a stink over? No.
Re: OUTRAGE...over detention?
The problem is that one thing leads to the next. Since they are able to throw them into detention this time next it will be suspension blah blah blah. Also, the person who created the fan page was suspended.
Re: OUTRAGE...over detention?
I disagree, I think the overzealous punishment of school kids is a matter entirely worth raising a stink over. The teachers get paid to be at school, the kids and their parents get punished if the kids don’t go to school. The odds are already stacked in the teachers favour without the teachers resorting to an authoritarian regime.
Aside from the sheer arrogance and disrespect shown by wrongly punishing kids, consider the long term effects it has. When those supposedly in a position of responsibility consistently punish rather than listen, what does that teach the kids? ‘It doesn’t matter what choices you make, those with authority don’t pay attention to right or wrong anyway’.
Re: Re: OUTRAGE...over detention?
Have you ever worked as a teacher? Have ANY of you?
Speach is free, the consequences of it aren’t. They’ve learned a valuable lesson about what you do and don’t put your name to in places it can be seen.
I can’t say I agree with it, but I DO think that these self rightous little pricks need to be taught some respect. Teachers and Schools have far too little authority these days and it’s creating a really obnoxious generation who seem to think they have the right to do whatever they want.
Or we could just do it your way. Let everyone do whatever they please and believe that their opinions are more important than anything else in the entire world. That’ll be a nice place to live…
Re: Re:
That IS the place we live…
Re: Re:
“Teachers and Schools have far too little authority these days and it’s creating a really obnoxious generation who seem to think they have the right to do whatever they want.”
As someone who is still trying to recover from the hell that was school, mostly due to the actions or inaction of teachers, I find your comments perversely obnoxious. All I have to show for being a willing pupil is a whole lot of suppressed anger at people who get paid to bully those in their care.
Re: Re:
“Speach is free, the consequences of it aren’t.”
This is retarded. Speech is free, but you can be thrown in jail and executed if you disagree with the president. By that standard free speech exists no matter where you live and has always existed everywhere. Your standard defeats the purpose of free speech, the purpose being able to exercise your free speech without punishment.
Disrespect
This is a delicate situation. Any teacher is vulnerable to false accusations. You can be as pure as the driven snow and totally innocent but the mere fact that someone accused you can result in a disaster. The school, in this case, probably overstepped its authority by punishing the students who opted into the page just to see what was being said. That is unless the students were doing this on a school computer. That would seem to give them some legal right to take action. Where the school was correct was in attempting to protect a professional employee from character assignation that could cost him/her their career. There is no easy answer except to educate kids on what is right and fair. When I see the way adults abuse each other both verbally and in print, I’m not surprised that young folks would do the same. This forum demonstrates daily that respect and civility are lacking in today’s discourse.
High school kids are like a pack of hyenas chasing a wounded animal and they can serious injure a teacher and their reputation. There are cases where kids will continue to harass and intimidate a weaker teacher until that person explodes, meanwhile there are several of the “hyenas” waiting with their cell phones to record the event to upload it to the internet.
The problem is that too many parents do not teach their kids manners and good behaviour, yet when their liitle Janie or Johnnie does some miscreant behavior they just ignore it as if nothing has happened. They are too busy to see they are the real problem by just dumping their kids issues elsewhere.
Schoolboards have to be tough with these little bastards and what was imposed was far too lenient. A repeat offender or one who did serious reputation damage to a teacher should suffer permanent expulsion. Let them learn that any offence to the similar WILL result in permanent expulsion, and if the little shitheads don’t like it, kick them out and get a job at McDonalds. Let the teachers do their job to teach and get rid of these spoiled troublemakers.
Re: Re:
There is also the possibility that the teacher actually sucks.
Have you considered that?
Also, note that:
(1) There was no video of teacher humiliation uploaded to the internet.
(2) I doubt a Facebook page created by high school students constitutes a serious injury to reputation.
The rest of your comment was a “get off my lawn” rant, and therefore cannot be reasonably refuted.
Re: Control
> Let them learn that any offence to the similar
> WILL result in permanent expulsion
The only problem with your little authoritarian rant is that it’s impossible to enforce.
If I’m Joe Student and I know that if I create a web page that my school doesn’t like, I can be expelled, what do I do if I want to create that page anyway? Simple. Have my older brother or sister or friend or whoever (someone who doesn’t go to that school and over whom the school has zero authority) put up the web page for me. All the content is mine, I get to proclaim to world how much Bob the Teacher sucks, but there’s no blowback on me. Even if they suspect it’s really me, they can’t legally punish me for what someone else puts up on the web.
See how this works? The more control you impose, the harder it gets to actually control.
Or as the immortal Princess Leia once said, “The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers…”
Re: Re: Control
Look past your nose, what the kids are doing to the teacher(s)in the schools is nothing less than cyber-bullying which is enforced in most good schools. A set of expulsion rules even just made with no enforcment as yet will scare off 90% of the lemmings from starting what becomes a tidal wave if nothing is in place.
Will one incident make a person guilty for expulsion? … probably not since they will be given a second chance. However, when a repeat offender or person that has been proven guilty does get punished, it will deter even the last 10%.
It will also be harder for the true guilty to get accomplices when rules are stiffer and any fake is always capable of being traced back. Eventually it will be the guilty party who gets punished, and the more complex and devious the methods they used, the stiffer the penalty … with perhaps expulsion from ALL schools.
Stiff rules with stiff punishment are needed to deter bad behavior when socially responsible behavior is not present.
The biggest problem I see with this is that it gives students detention for activities they are involved in outside of school. If the content is libelous, legal action can be taken to compel Facebook to shut it down, but the only students who should have been given detention over this, at most, are ones who were actually caught accessing the content using school equipment. If the teacher finds he is unable to perform his duties in the presence of people that he knows will make (possibly humiliating) fun of him outside of class, he probably should be finding another career… or at least find a school that gives him the freedom to ban students from his classroom that he feels he cannot educate for whatever reason. Detention, however, is inappropriate.
Suspensions??
Holy hell, they _suspended_ a student over this? Are you kidding me? I got suspended once when I was in highschool – for getting caught having sex on school property. How the hell would this school have reacted to something like that? Jesus christ, suspension is meant for _serious_ offenses – sex on school property, drugs, guns, etc. Not exercising your first amendment rights.
Private Property Rules
Mike, “We’ve been seeing more and more stories like this, as various schools seem to overstep the boundaries of school property into the online world to try to regulate student speech. It’s highly questionable as to whether or not they have the legal right to do so (and, in fact, there are cases that suggest that there’s a significant limit to how much schools can even prevent students from speaking out while on campus as well). ” — well the law is one thing. But the libertarian approach is that any private property owner (such as a school or employer) can condition access to its property on whatever rules it wants. The school has a perfect right to say “if you do such-and-such outside of school hours we will expel you.” Of course the school should have the legal right to do this. A complicating factor is if the school is a government school–but the solution to this is of course that there should be no public schools.
Re: Private Property Rules
No, the school should not have a legal right to do that. That’s just absurd. Like your boss having the legal right to tell you that gay sex will get you fired. Yes, there are circumstances where such a thing would be permissible, but I believe you’re intelligent enough to see where I’m going with it.
Outside of the school, the school should have little to no say. That is the provenance of the the student’s legal guardian. Come on, America! Grow a new backbone!
Re: Private Property Rules
This is not a libertarian approach, but an anarchist approach.
And no, the school (or any school) has no legal right since only men have rights.
Re: Private Property Rules
> But the libertarian approach is that any private
> property owner (such as a school or employer)
There’s one small flaw in your theory: schools are not private property. Well, some are and we call them private schools, but that’s not what we’re talking about here. The school in question in *public* property. It’s a government institution and as such it must abide by the same constitutional restraints as every other arm of government.
fuck respect for them
they are bending over to the mpaa and riaa
so what respect do they deserve
FUCK EM HIGH
FUCK EM LOW
bomb the boats and feed the fucking flesh to the fish
It's illegal
When I was in my senior year of school, and had to take Government. We discussed what was legal, and illegal to do in school. Funny thing is we were told that our rights as people in the real world do not stop at the door. The schools are trying to break students right to freedom of speech.
“It’s highly questionable as to whether or not they have the legal right to do so (and, in fact, there are cases that suggest that there’s a significant limit to how much schools can even prevent students from speaking out while on campus as well). “
This is mostly fantasy. The established legal precedent tends towards saying that minors don’t have any rights and schools have been allowed to restrict speech however they want in most cases.
Yes, it’s bullshit, but as far as established case law there’s not really much foundation for what you wrote.
Re: I think you're wrong about precedent
I realize that the Hazelwood and the more recent Denver (?) cases may have reversed some of Tinker vs. Des Moines, but I believe most of the precedent established by Tinker still stands. “It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate.” And this wasn’t even within the “schoolhouse gates:.
That is wrong in many ways.
Signing to the group does not mean a jack. There are a lot of reasons teen can do that for. Show off, really hate that teacher (so what, is there a freedom of speech?), fill up the amount of groups he/she has. I myself have number of groups on one of the social networks site, which I never even visited. What those “old school” teachers/principles did was clearly wrong.
I agree with the author of this article about the fact that it is our nature. I just want to add that violence is our nature as well. Not that violence is a bad thing. In fact I would allow elementary school student to fight.
Not an Adult yet.
That is hard, but kids are not adults yet and must be monitored and when bad behaviour is caught they should be instructed and be offered options.
Even if it was not for a free speech thing, I think we hope everybody is well mannered that is the point of being in school to gain those manners or I could be the only one who thinks that way.
Now for punishing the kids, well they didn’t do it in the school premisses so it should fallow the order and notify the parents about that conduct and ask if they need help to explain why that is not acceptable behaviour for society.
Kids should learn that they have options and should be given some room to exercise those options, they should be told why that is bad and should decide for themselves to take down those posts but it has to be done by them otherwise it taught nothing good, just that they need to hide.
Conclusion:
The school took the wrong approach and probably is infringing on free speech and should not be able to do so, but parents of some kids there need to take a step back and see what their kids were doing and have a long serious talk about why manners do matter.
What happened to dialogue before punishment?
After reading the full article, the thing that strikes me the most is that the administration is only concerned about the teacher’s reputation, not that the teacher’s actions in the classroom would prompt such a group.
Are there any other teachers with a facebook page about them? If not, why was this teacher so special? Maybe instead of punishing the students for bad mouthing a teacher, they should take a closer look at that teacher to find out WHY the students would say such a thing. Also, maybe the school should look at it’s own systems for students to provide feedback. It seems that there isn’t an outlet for them, so they turned to facebook.
Now let’s look at the flip side of the coin for a moment; if the students had of been apart of a group praising a teacher and saying how great that teacher was, would they have received the same punishment? Of course not. It’s only b/c what they were saying wasn’t liked by someone that they were punished for it.
I feel that the school very much over stepped their bounds on this one. The fact that the teachers seem to be patrolling social networking sites actually rather scares me. It seems to me that the school boards need to come up with some rules and set a line and teach the students what this line is. Living in a gray area then calling foul when a kid does something you don’t like is NOT the way to do things.
Re: Re:
Can we all join the group and boost its membership? 🙂
Teachers get paid to go to school, kids get forced to go to school.
I see so many people telling of how horribly teachers get treated by kids, yet I wasted many years of my life trying to be nice to people who were getting paid to tell me how lazy they thought I was. Despite constant attempts from my parents to get them to recognise how much I was under achieving, hardly anyone seemed to care.
One school was forced by my parents to do two tests (without me knowing what they were for), the first of which they ignored the results of and the second of which despite shocking the head mistress into submission, proved too little too late.
Eventually, despite having the supposed potential of a mensa candidate, I dropped out of school and into clinical depression. The tragic irony is that had I been a violent student I would almost certainly gotten the help I needed to progress. Being nice just got me ignored except when I failed to meet expectations, which was always met with threats and punishment.
I found some teachers more than willing to take out their anger towards specific pupils on a whole class. Most seemed completely ignorant of the fact that they have by choice taken on a job that makes them responsible for students who have been given no choice but to attend lessons. Nearly all teachers would punish for under achievement yet most would not make sufficient effort to find out why a student was unable to meet expectations.
Frankly, anyone telling me stories of teachers getting beaten up by packs of wild students will put me in mind of specific teachers to whom such a thing might be considered poetic justice.
Just so no one gets the wrong idea (the above is supposed to be one side of the story after all), there were some absolutely amazing teachers for whom I have nothing but praise and thanks. Unfortunately their efforts were rather overshadowed by the majority who left me feeling nothing but contempt for the profession.
“I said it’s like signing you name in agreement. Imagine a sheet of paper on the wall that says “This teacher is an idiot” and you add your name on it and say “yeah, I agree”. It’s pretty much in that sense.”
— Actually, the correct interpretation from your comment is that by merely being a TechDirt member, you agree with whatever Mike posts, without ever commenting on any particular post. Your presence on the site is automatic agreement with whatever is posted here. Which, of course is as ridiculous as the point you are trying to make.
To use your own example, imagine that the sign was posted in the cafeteria, and students were made aware of it. In order to read it, they had to go into the cafeteria. When the principal finds out, he proceeds to suspend the people that signed it saying “I agree”, and everyone else who was in the cafeteria who could have read it regardless of whether they agree or disagree with the statement. That’s the ridiculous logic you are trying to defend…
It's been hinted at, but has anyone said it?
What if some of the kids joined the group to vent their disagree with the sentiment of the page?
If they wanted to hand out detentions, they could have at least asked some questions.
OK Then...
“First, students always make fun of teachers they don’t like. It’s part of being in high school. Pretending you can stop that isn’t going to change the human nature of teenagers.”
Right. So then we all have no problems with a teacher creating a web page about his/her student “Johnny The Retard”, who smells funny and has bladder control issues. And moans a lot.
It’s called civility. This “fan group” is nothing more than a form of passive-aggressive bullying of a fellow human. Who cares if the teacher is deserving of it?
THIRD...
Third, did they confirm that the students became fans of the page AFTER the actionable offending material was added to it?
After all, I can create a benign page on Facebook, garner lots of friends, and then alter page content to make it malignant. It would be unfair to punish friends of the page who hadn’t realized the content changed.
Expelled.
I was expelled my Junior year for making a group complaining about my school’s bogus new rules on Myspace. (Private school). Just goes to show you that you can’t even live outside of school without the fear that you’ll get in trouble for something like that.
Ok i can relate to this. We made fun of a girl over a hacked myspace. We made stupid pics and put them on there and made fun of her and wrote stupid things. She cried to her mom and her mom went to school an complained. I, along with a few other of my friends, got a suspension for that.
i think that this is stupid and that students should not and can not get in trouble for things done off of the school campus ESPECIALLY online.
Now if a student printed it out and posted up around school or was showing it to people at school then they could get in trouble but not a detention or suspension!
Come on people really? It is stupid jokes. And we also have those rights. Freedom of speech and press. So we cant get in trouble for speeking or writing things like that.
Thanks for taking the time to read this.
AND YES I DISAGREE WITH WHAT THEY DID!!!
What the Fucshia are teachers doing on their students’ facebook and giving them detention for something that didn’t happen at school at all. I’d sue if my teacher did that to me.