Wiki Demonstrates How Yellow Pages Are Obsolete — Gets Sued For Its Efforts
from the yeah,-people-must-be-confused dept
It really is amazing that the yellow pages business directory business is still as strong as it is. In the age of the internet, selling ads in phone books is still a multi-billion dollar business — though, those in the business must realize it’s at risk. While millions of the books are distributed, sooner or later advertisers are going to wake up to the fact that most of these books are a complete waste, likely only to be thrown out (if touched at all). There are ways that yellow pages providers can move into the internet age (and a few are trying), but it seems there are going to be a few speedbumps along the way. The world’s largest yellow pages publisher, Yell, who made about $2.4 billion last year has apparently unleashed its legal attack dogs against Yellowikis, a volunteer wiki-based yellow pages directory that lost a grand total of $500. The company is, of course, claiming trademark infringement, but it’s hard to see how “yellow pages” can’t be considered a generic term at this point. Furthermore, it seems incredibly unlikely that there’s any confusion (which is what trademark law is supposed to be about: preventing consumer confusion) about the fact that Yell has absolutely nothing to do with Yellowikis. Of course, thanks to this news spreading, it’s likely going to mean that Yellowikis will get a lot more attention, boosting the bottom-up threat to Yell’s traditional business.
Comments on “Wiki Demonstrates How Yellow Pages Are Obsolete — Gets Sued For Its Efforts”
Books
I agree that the internet may eat into yellow pages as they are today, but at the same time, I don’t see it as completely eliminating the current yellow pages directories. I use some online directories, but in the end find myself grabbing the book. For me, it’s almost easier to find what I am looking for in the book than online. Just like novels, or reference material, I think the actual books will be around for some time to come.
Books
I agree that the internet may eat into yellow pages as they are today, but at the same time, I don’t see it as completely eliminating the current yellow pages directories. I use some online directories, but in the end find myself grabbing the book. For me, it’s almost easier to find what I am looking for in the book than online. Just like novels, or reference material, I think the actual books will be around for some time to come.
Lol, go to Nevada and look up a place to get a massage. You will find tons of ads for brothells saying things along the lines of “Its legal here!” It is quite funny.
Re: Re:
Try Montreal! Same thing!
Weee!
Re: Re: Re:
perhaps not legal but certainly not discouraged 🙂
"Yellow" is descriptive and cannot be trademarked
“Yellow” is descriptive and cannot be trademarked … as there is no other way to describe the pages that are, well, yellow. As such , it’s generic and cannot be “owned” by one person since that would prevent others from even being able to describe their own “yellow” products. What, can no one else in the world have “yellow” pages? Quick, grab the rest of the color names, then aside from the few dozen people who own the color names, no one else can print ANYTHING!
No, as stated, the whole point of LEGAL support for “trademarks” – marks in trade – it to support commerce, not criple it! It’s the “Yell brand of Yellow Pages” or some such, just as it’s the “Band-Aid brand of adhesive bandages” or “Kleenex brand of facial tissue”.
I sincerely hope that no stoopid judge (redundant?) who knows so little of commerce precedent (the trademark office is NOT a bunch of entry-level clerks but is a bunch of high level lawyers who practive law with every application they process every day!) lets YEll OWN the color YELLOW the way they let Microsoft OWN the descriptive and well used name “Windows” – which should be recinded and it’s registration should be thrown out.
However, the Windows sham shows how sometimes the big guy gets served and the little guy gets squashed. Let’s hope we win here and “yellow” remains in the puclic domain for us all to use. Yahoo has “Yahoo Yellow Pages” at http://www.yahoo.com/r/yp so SOME PEOPLE understand branding and NOT depending on generic terms for their identity!
Hello, Yell, GET A CLUE! You’ve chosen a generic term and cannot expect to own it and prevent the world from using the term “yellow”.
Re: "Yellow" is descriptive and cannot be trademar
While I agree with you that “Yellow” is generic and I agree to side with the little guy here, the past takes precidence. Look at the complaint many years back regarding Radio “Shack” and Auto “Shack”. Auto Shack had to change their name to AutoZone. Am also sure if someone made a company called. I don’t know, that’s just my 2cents.
Re: "Yellow" is descriptive and cannot be trademar
“I sincerely hope that no stoopid judge (redundant?)”
Unfortunately it isn’t the judges job to decide whether the patent is valid or not. They can only say whether the patent, as written, has been violated or not. Maybe we should replace that with “I sincerely hope that no stoopid patent clerk (redundant?)”.
Re: "Yellow" is descriptive and cannot be trademar
I’m not certain about whether Yellow Pages is infact a trademark in the U.S. However, I am 100% certain that Yellow Pages is a trademark in Canada and only one company has the license to use that name on their phone directories
Books
If you need something local its usually easier to find it in the book.
I have not picked up a Yellow book in 6 years. I find everything online. If there is a company not online, I am not doing business with it.
For the Yellow books I get at home…
.. they get the recycling bin treatment!
Re: Re:
How many sand and gravel pits are online? Limiting yourself to only those businesses with an online presence won’t always pan out in some product areas.
Re: Re: Re:Sand and Gravel
Silver State in Nevada
HTM in Oregon
I’m sure there are others
MSN Yellow Pages says 12,767 nationwide
Re: I have not picked up a Yellow book in 6 years
DITTO! Nor have I picked up the white pages.
I agree with the last post, I have used the yellow pages a handful of times in the past 5 years. I’m going to find it online or not bother.
Yello pages get with the times
I still dont understand why they dont just take the current book, put it on cd, or web base it, and charge an addiditonal fee, when you place an add, for it to be Internet-ized, or make it a choice for customers, Like you have now for a e-bill, I so-an-so customer would like not to recieve a book, but a cd version, or access to the web version?, think of all the billions that would save in printing the books, look at all the money they save just with e-bills?
Re: Yello pages get with the times
Yello pages get with the times by Amerin on Jul 7th, 2006 @ 4:57am
I still dont understand why they dont just take the current book, put it on cd, or web base it, and charge an addiditonal fee, when you place an add, for it to be Internet-ized, or make it a choice for customers, Like you have now for a e-bill, I so-an-so customer would like not to recieve a book, but a cd version, or access to the web version?, think of all the billions that would save in printing the books, look at all the money they save just with e-bills?
Amazing as it may seem in this day and age, there are still a large number of people that do not use the Internet; or even have computers.
The only recent time I used the yellow pages was when my A/C failed and the computers were off to prevent them from overheating in the summer bake-off here in the desert.
Re: Yello pages get with the times
get real, yellow page directories are as part of the future as they were of the past .Don’t you read the newspqpers? Directories lead by miles over internet directory sites. Don’t expect these books to go away anytime soon. Too many businesses rely on them for customers.
Expensive!
As a business owner I can tell you that even a small ad in the Yellow pages can be very expensive. Ads run in th hundreds and thousands of dollars. As an advertising executive I can also say, our agency views them as an almost complete waste of money, along with outdoor advertising (billboards) for most clients. We just pulled our Yellow Pages ad and reallocated that money to online advertising.
I use
I use the yellow pages as a chew toy for my rabbit.
In reality I’m going to play the safety card, what if your power is out and you need to call the phone company, or the hospital? you need a yellow pages they won’t go anywhere, you will see the smart yellow pages companies partner with google books fo digitize in a useful format.
Yellow Pages should be protected
Yellow pages is a trademark of a service that is 100% similar to the service provided to the consumer by yellowikis .
Yes , an average person can easily be confused and assume that they are affiliated . Trademark law should protect people from making such mistakes , so they get sued .
It makes sence .
Re: Yellow Pages should be protected
SENCE, It only makes SENSE if a reasonable person using ordinary intelligence can be confused by use
of a label. I would say that Yell should get on the train instead of throwing pennies on the track to annoy the engineer
Re: Yellow Pages should be protected
That would be like trademarking “white board” or “computer”
Yellow Pages trademark and computers
The “Yellow Pages” trademark came up quite a few years ago when Sun ran afoul of them over their network-centered directory, which they called “Yellow Pages.” It was used to allow central storage of common configuration files, such as /etc/hosts, /etc/passwd, and other more-or-less static bits of information. The commands “ypcat passwd” would give you the user list for all your computers (change the password in yellow pages, and it was changed for all the systems where you logged in).
Due to British Telecom’s ownership of the “Yellow Pages” trademark, Sun decided not to fight, but rather nenamed its system “Network Information System” (NIS), although the commands still had the “yp” prefix. The man pages even explained that British Telecom owned the trademark to “Yellow Pages,” although this may have been simply to assuage the lawyers at BT.
I’ve been amused to see “YellowPages.com” advertised on TV, and wondered if this was a BT project or a bunch of people that were going to eventually get sued.
There are other similar systems that did not use the word “Yellow” such as Craig’s List, Switchboard, and many others.
The term “Yellow” isn’t the trademark, it’s the entire term (“Yellow Pages”) which Sun used. I think the assualt on “Yellow Wiki” is just to get rid of an annoying competitor. If this is truly a not-for-profit grass-roots project, they may not be able to afford a lawyer to defend their right to call themselves what they want to call themselves. One “C&D” letter, about fifteen minutes’ work, and you now have one fewer competitor.
Maybe we should come up with a suitable term for this. Let’s call it “Yellow Counsel.”
Do we want free calls?
Slightly OT, but do we really want a world of free international phone calls? I’ve been getting some pretty rude Skype calls lately, by people with no respect for others.
It's UK law
“Yellow Pages” is trademarked in the UK, so the owner, Yell, has an arguable case – especially as Yellowikis makes several references to “Yellow Pages” on its own home page.
The case will be tested in the High Court in due course, unless the parties settle.
YP obsolete? Not yet.
Even with sites such as Superpages, Google and Yahoo Local and the like I do not find information I need on those sites. The sites provided by yellowpages producers such as Superpages do not show the ads that are found in the books.
I still use my yellow pages and nobody has made them obsolete for me — and I live in what is considered one of the most wired states and regions: Seattle, WA
Trying to maintain online presence
I can see, to a point, how the Yellow Pages Group wants to keep an edge over such free projects like yellowiki, but to sue is ridiculous. What right does Yell have to prevent someone from freely posting online contact information on a free wiki?
There is no way to stop the proliferation of voluntary information on the web. Except for perhaps trademark infringement using Yellow Pages or a yellow theme could be fought over, the actual information and purpose of the website cannot be disputed.
A wiki that allows businesses to freely post advertising and contact information is as legal as most other practices on the web.
I would suggest that Yellowiki change its name and continues to offer a free international service to allow business and individuals to post advertising and contact information and destroy greedy corporations like Yellowpages providing a service which is no longer something to have to pay for. Call it Bluewiki. Make Blue the new Yellow. Create a brand rather then leaching off another brand, then there won’t be any reason to be sued.
Please check your facts, guys
I usually really enjoy TechDirt’s insight, but I have to say that you guys didn’t do your homework on this one.
For a number of years I was the primary researcher for possession and usage at one of the big yellow pages publishers. I have since moved on to an Internet company — printed directories’ days are clearly numbered. However, your claim that these books are a waste is entirely unfounded. In many U.S. markets, the number of consumers who use printed directories remains greater than the number of consumers who have internet access at all. Granted, the usage of printed directories is declining faster in more populous areas — areas with better technology access, higher incomes, and more businesses within walking distance of people’s homes.
Why did you present your conclusions as fact, when objective, third-party measures are available?
As a second point: Last I checked, Verizon Information Services was a $3+ billion company (and at one time was $4 billion)… how exactly is Yell the largest at $2.4 billion?
Re: Please check your facts, guys
In many U.S. markets, the number of consumers who use printed directories remains greater than the number of consumers who have internet access at all. Granted, the usage of printed directories is declining faster in more populous areas — areas with better technology access, higher incomes, and more businesses within walking distance of people’s homes.
As we stated, it’s still a big business. But can it last? I doubt it. I was just in NYC, where every apartment building I went into had stacks upon stacks of untouched yellow pages that had been delivered weeks before.
As a second point: Last I checked, Verizon Information Services was a $3+ billion company (and at one time was $4 billion)… how exactly is Yell the largest at $2.4 billion?
That stat was from the original article, and we took it at face value. Apparently it was wrong.
In the meantime, if the yellow pages is such a good business, why is Verizon so anxious to get out of it?
Google Maps on my cell phone gets 90% of things I am looking for…
Re: Re:
Where do you think google maps get their business listings from?
I HATE YELLOW
They keep leaving these books in my yard, on my front porch, everywhere. I get at least 2 new books per month and they all go right in the trash. I hope the people that advertise in these things relize the can have a web presence for LESS than it cost to advertise in every single revision of Yellow that comes out- put them out of business so they will quit wasting paper and spamming my yard.
Re: I HATE YELLOW
quit wasting paper and spamming my yard
hahaha
i wish they would stop spamming my yard too!
but i can see how they still have a business. lots of us who spend our days on computers don’t use the books but those who either have bad/no internet connections or don’t know how to do effective searches still need the books.
when will someone come up w/ a spam filter for my yard???
Re: Re: I HATE YELLOW
“when will someone come up w/ a spam filter for my yard???”
They have its called a Mexican!
I personally have found great uses for yellow book…the broken leg on the coffe table, a door stop….etc…..oh and something else to toss into my annoying neighbors yard 🙂
Re: Re: Re: I HATE YELLOW
“when will someone come up w/ a spam filter for my yard???”
They have its called a Mexican!
OH MY…you are bad!
how do you know im not mexican?
but i do like the idea of tossing it in my annoying neighbors yard. he cut down one of my little trees with out asking and severed my soaker hose in the process…i see lots of yellow pages in his future!
Instead of.....
spending hundreds of thousands and maybe more on lawyers to sue yellwiki, just use the cash and buy them out….then they will have another pltaform or webiste to generate more revenue
Online Versions
Interesting ting is yellowpages.com is trademarked through AT&T (Formerly SBC) and BellSouth (probably soon to be AT&T, telecom aquisitions are plentiful these days), Yell’s own website, yellgroup.com, lists yell.com for UK and yellowbook.com for US So if their trademark was so strong, why give in to AT&T?
Also, yellowpages.com does local listing searches, and if I recall correctly, inlusion in the AT&T (I am still not used to calling them that) book is automatic entry into the online, you can pay for better listings just like the book.
Online Directories
Online Yellowpages exist, and they are much much easier to use than the print books. In fact if you have a cingular phone that is web enabled it has yellowpages.com as a directory.
I am a rep for yellowpages.com and as far as cost to the advertiser is concerned its about 10% of the print directories.
Check out the site and see what you like about it.
i live in a large urban apartment complex. About a month ago SBC delivered a stack of about 100 yellow page books. About a week later, the stack was untouched. Another week later, I saw them all in our recycling bins.
Websites like Yelp.com have superceded Yellow Pages directories.
Yeller!
Look, the Yellow pages are going nowhere. As long as there are hard copy books still in print so too will be the yellow pages. $2.4 billion proves this. The internet isn’tr taking away anything but mearly enhancing what already exists.
Not all local business advertises on the internet but most do in the yellow pages. Why? because it works…still.
I’m tired of the internet being blamed for the end-all of society. IT’S JUST A TOOL PEOPLE! Not the end of society as we know it. It can make things easier on us and that’s it. It won’t replace books, screwdrivers, bubblegum, cars, trees, schools, taxes, warts, dentures, grandparents, or anything else that may matter to us.
We have had the internet (in it’s present state) now for roughly 10 years and I have yet to see it replace anything. It does make certain things easier as all tools do. So get over this apocolyptic view of the internets role in our world. The internet is a tool…PERIOD.
Oh Thank GOd and thank TechDirt! I have been looking for an online alternative to the Yellow Pages (which I abhor) for ages!
You’re right – Yell just shot themselves in the foot ala RIAA vs PirateBay 🙂
Hmmm… I’m online if I’m awake, but I rarely think of going online when I want to find local stuff. I figure 99.9% of everything near me is in my Yellow Pages (or any of the business phone books), and it’s in a standardized format that’s easy for me to work with. Online is different. IF a company is online it might do stupid stuff like require flash or javascript. If it’s a local branch of a major chain I’m looking for then I’ll have to wade through their version of “find a local branch”. Assuming I found what I want I will probably still need a phone number and address, so why didn’t I just use the Yellow Pages in the first place?
But hey a CD alternative would be way cool. Problem there is I never ask for the books – they just show up in the driveway one day, so how would the publishers know I’d be into a digital version instead? Then again the book is always on even if the power is off or my cable connection goes out. Or my PC or monitor dies.
The Yellow Pages will die over time
Kodak still makes film too, but I don’t think many people will take the bet they are going to own the photography business much longer, the way that the Yellow Page companies have owned local advertising in the past. Of course some people still do, there was a funny post on it being used in the Microsoft Lobby
Here is an interesting post on the waste that is happening with them.
I guess I should wait for my letter from someone for my post suggesting.. The Yellow Pages is akin to the Mafia and protection racket
Yellow Pages trademark
The issue as a previous poster mentioned is that Yellow Pages is a trademark in Brittain, but not in the US. Yell will have an extremely hard time proving trademark violation when it is already recognized in the US as a generic phrase.
So is this a UK case? Are Yell and Yellowikis UK companies? As far as I can tell, the name “Yellow Pages” is only protected in the UK.
But never mind that. Have you tried Yellowikis? I can’t find anything in there. Seems to be more conceptual to me. Or maybe it is fleshed out in certain geographies?
I actually resent what I feel is a five-pound yellow pulp log being dumped on my porch every six months or so. I send mine straight to the trash, as paper recycling has been shown not to work.
Yellow What?
I use Yellow Pages all the time… they prop up my monitor to just the right hight.
Seriously though, while they are used less and less by most people there will always be people without internet or even computer access (some people still don’t own televisions), and there will be times when they are the most effective way to find a service/number.
They aren’t going anywhere.
Trademarks are not copyrights are not patents.
Yellowikis.org is in the U.K., so is subject to U.K. trademark laws. The front page of Yellowikis.org says “Yellow Pages for the 21st Century.” The trademark violation is clear.
Under trademark law, failure to defend will lose the mark. The fact that Yell made $2.4 billion is irrelevant.
Actually, this does look like trademark infringeme
Looking at the home page of YellowWikis – they mention clearly and often that they are the ‘first yellow pages with videos, first yellow page with VOIP’ and so on. While Yellow is certainly generic – they can certainly argue that Yellow Pages is not. All the points about this business model being in peril aside, I wouldn’t hold it against a company to want to prevent their trademark from it becoming a generic term.
Yellowiki
I agree that it’s kind of ridiculous for Yell to be suing Yellowiki, but I do have to make one small comment regarding the following remark:
( The company is, of course, claiming trademark infringement, but it’s hard to see how “yellow pages” can’t be considered a generic term at this point. )
…..just because we use the term alot shouldn’t take away from the fact that ‘Yellow Pages’ is somebody’s owned trademark. Kleenex could be considered a ‘generic term’, but it’s not – it is owned. And with that line of thinking why not let everybody write a song called ‘Stairway To Heaven’, since everybody’s familiar with the title and we all know who wrote it – I’m sure the copyright owner’s wouldn’t mind other people making money off of their concept…..
Just wanted to spout my point of view about that….
Re: Yellowiki
“with that line of thinking why not let everybody write a song called ‘Stairway To Heaven’, since everybody’s familiar with the title and we all know who wrote it – I’m sure the copyright owner’s wouldn’t mind other people making money off of their concept…..”
While you have a point about Kleenex, it’s impossible to copyright a title – so anyone can write a song called ‘Stairway to Heaven’ and record/release/publish it with impunity. Of course, it would be a high-risk strategy, as the song would have to be pretty good for listeners not to feel let down… 🙂
Yellow Pages is a waste...
Personally, I just visit YP.BELLSOUTH.NET. It has every listing the physical version has and it’s always at my fingertips taking up no space on my desk. Why would someone store a 10 pound book when the entire thing is on-line?
Yellow
most of your readers missed that this is a UK company defending a perceived breach of its trademark rights.
The term Yellow pages is trademarked in the UK, and has been for many years. (colours can be trademarked in the Uk, witness Orange, the mobile phone company. It is likely that Yell will rely on the english law concept of passing off.
Instead of immediately jumping to the defence of the small guy, I wish the blogsphere would pause and understand the merits of the case.
I go into this in more detail here
http://theotherthomasotter.wordpress.com/2006/07/13/yellow-pages-uk-trademark-law-wikis-and-passing-off/
There are two sides to this case, and before charging to judgement, it would be good for people to do two things.
1. understand the basics of trademark law in the jurisidiction where the case is.
2. Gather the facts.
Just because yellowiki is a wiki doesnt mean that it is above the law….
Insider's Viewpoint
The YP company execs are pompous, self absorbed, greedy bastards that really believe that they own everything in their sight. They cannot stand to see someone enter “their domain”. They still think like a brainless utility company with a monopoly thus their rage when any new player shows up in their world. I worked for a company I’ll call “Southern Chimes” and have witnessed it firsthand. Nothing surprises me about these jerks.
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