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<title>Techdirt. Stories about &quot;craigslist&quot;</title>
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<image><title>Techdirt. Stories about &quot;craigslist&quot;</title><url>http://www.techdirt.com/images/td-88x31.gif</url><link>http://www.techdirt.com/</link></image>
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<pubDate>Wed, 1 May 2013 09:29:00 PDT</pubDate>
<title>Craigslist's Abuse Of Copyright And The CFAA To Attack Websites That Make Craigslist Better Is A Disgrace</title>
<dc:creator>Mike Masnick</dc:creator>
<link>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130501/04342822905/craigslists-abuse-copyright-cfaa-to-attack-websites-that-make-craigslist-better-is-disgrace.shtml</link>
<guid>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130501/04342822905/craigslists-abuse-copyright-cfaa-to-attack-websites-that-make-craigslist-better-is-disgrace.shtml</guid>
<description><![CDATA[ Craigslist and Craig Newmark, specifically, have been very involved in being good corporate citizens on the internet.  Craig was one of the key players in stopping SOPA, and has been involved in a number of other key internet activism campaigns, including the fight against CISPA.  That's part of the reason we were so surprised and disappointed last year to see Craigslist seek to <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120724/18071219816/disappointing-craigslist-sues-padmapper-making-craigslist-more-useful-valuable.shtml">abuse</a> both copyright law and the CFAA to go after a couple of sites that added a layer of value on top of Craigslist.  The key target seemed to be Padmapper, a site that combined data from Craigslist and other sources to make searches for real estate much more useful (adding maps and other data).  Those results did not compete with Craigslist but layered more info on top, driving interested people right back to Craigslist.  After Craigslist threatened Padmapper for scraping its site, Padmapper switched to using a third party, 3taps, which had figured out a way to get data from Craigslist, and Padmapper just used that instead.
<br /><br />
In response, Craigslist sued them both (and another site that was using 3taps as well) making some highly questionable claims about how this was both copyright infringement and a CFAA violation because it violated its terms of service.  The copyright claim seemed particularly bizarre, because Craigslist appeared to be claiming copyright on <i>posts made by others</i>, something that was obviously ridiculous.  Making things even more farcical, Craigslist then tried to cover this up with a click through notice on the site telling visitors that when you post on Craigslist you're <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120801/16040019908/craigslist-demands-exclusive-license-your-posts.shtml">granting an <b>exclusive</b> license</a> to Craigslist -- meaning you're effectively giving it control over your copyright.  After that raised significant backlash, including from <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120730/03334319875/ny-times-picks-up-fact-that-craigslist-has-become-legal-bully-against-anyone-who-makes-its-site-better.shtml">the NY Times</a>, Craigslist <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120810/03191019986/craigslist-realizes-it-went-too-far-no-longer-requires-exclusive-license-to-your-posts.shtml">backed down</a> on that one point.
<br /><br />
But the lawsuit itself has continued and the judge recently <a href="https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/695181-430-138734862.html" target="_blank">ruled on the motions to dismiss</a> the lawsuit from 3taps and Padmapper.  The ruling is a mixed bag, but mostly bad.  First we'll start with the tiny "good" part, though: the court did <a href="http://www.forbes.com/sites/derekkhanna/2013/04/30/craigslists-allegations-of-copyright-violations-thrown-out/" target="_blank">dismiss the general copyright claims</a> Craigslist was making over everyone's posts on its site (outside that time period discussed above where Craigslist said it wanted an exclusive license).
<blockquote><i>
The meaning of the phrase &#8220;You also expressly grant and
assign to [Craigslist] all rights&#8221; was the subject of some debate at the hearing on these
motions, but the &#8220;all rights&#8221; language relates specifically to enforcement rights&#8211;not rights to
the content of the posts. The language assigning rights to the content did not use the phrase
&#8220;all rights,&#8221; and did not specify that the rights granted were &#8220;exclusive.&#8221; Craigslist provides
no authority for the proposition that an ambiguous grant of rights is presumptively exclusive,
and the Court declines to read that term into the terms that Craigslist itself drafted
</i></blockquote>
Basically, it says that Craigslist's regular terms of service didn't grant Craigslist an exclusive license, which is necessary for a lawsuit over the copyrights.
<br /><br />
But, in the long run, that's a small victory.  The court does say that Craigslist has a copyright in the "compilation," claiming that adding geographic information is somehow creative.
<blockquote><i>
Craigslist has alleged that its &#8220;classified ad service is organized
first by geographic area, and then by category of product or service,&#8221; with these categories
organized in &#8220;a list designed and presented by craigslist.&#8221;...  Construing the
relevant allegations in Craigslist&#8217;s favor at this early stage in the proceedings, the Court
concludes that Craigslist, in &#8220;deciding which categories to include and under what name,&#8221;
... &#8220;display[ed] some minimal level of creativity,&#8221; 
</i></blockquote>
Ick.  I have trouble seeing how that kind of activity raises to the level of creativity protected by copyright, so hopefully later in the process the court will reject this concept.  Now, the next bad part of the ruling: the court says that Craigslist <i>does</i> actually have a valid copyright in the posts for those few short weeks when it had that clickthrough "reminding" people that it had the exclusive right.  I still don't see how this is possible, since an exclusive license is supposed to require a written confirmation, not clicking through on an oddly worded "reminder."  But, the court twisted some things around to say this is okay.  I've read this over a few times and it still doesn't make any sense.
<br /><br />
Basically, it says, as noted above, that Craigslist's "regular" terms of use don't grant the necessary exclusive license, but the combination of the terms that don't grant an exclusive license with a "reminder" from Craigslist that it <i>does</i> grant an exclusive license, somehow makes the terms grant an exclusive license.  I don't see how that's possible, especially as there's no explicit or written agreement from the user to assign the exclusive license.  Even though it was just written as a "confirmation," the court says that "it is reasonable to infer that a Craigslist user would understand that this "confirmation" effected a transfer of rights."   But why?  How could a statement that is written as if it reminds you of something actually be an official decision to transfer rights?  Here's what the reminder specifically said:
<blockquote><i>
Clicking &#8220;Continue&#8221; confirms that craigslist is the exclusive licensee of this content, with the exclusive right to enforce copyrights against anyone copying, republishing, distributing or preparing derivative works without its consent.
</i></blockquote>
That certainly sounds like a reminder of an existing situation and <b>not</b> an official agreement to transfer rights. But the court seems to think people will realize that clicking that single button is giving up entirely the rights to their own copyrights to Craigslist.  That seems ripe for revisiting...
<br /><br />
The impact of this -- even if it only applies to posts from July 16, 2012 through August 8, 2012 -- could be huge.  As the EFF notes <a href="https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/04/craigslist-owns-what-you-did-last-summer" target="_blank">this could create serious problems</a>:
<blockquote><i>
So, if you posted a craigslist ad while this provision was live, you're out of luck. craigslist's ownership claims over user posts could potentially mean that the affected users can&#8217;t republish their ads on multiple services without risking a claim of infringement. And while not every craigslist post is going to go viral and have real value outside the original context (like the &#8220;<a href="http://jalopnik.com/5905078/jesus-tap+dancing-christ-the-greatest-craigslist-car-ad-ever">Jesus Tap-Dancing Christ</a>&#8221; car ad), users still need the right to post and repost their material in a variety of venues. Moreover, the exclusive license provision calls into question craigslist&#8217;s compatibility with common licensing schemes, like the Creative Commons ShareAlike license or the GNU Free Documentation License for the time that provision was valid. And, worse still: craigslist&#8217;s actions, and the court's ruling, only increases the chance that other websites will start demanding ownership of the content you post there.
</i></blockquote>
So, a tiny bit of good, but a lot bad on the copyright front.
<br /><br />
On the CFAA front... it's the same basic story.  The court rejects the idea that merely accessing the website is a CFAA violation (thanks to the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Nosal" target="_blank">Nosal ruling</a>).  It rejects Craigslist's claims that it was blocking access, rather than uses (which is the core of the Nosal ruling), noting correctly that within Craigslist's terms, all of the restrictions are about uses.
<blockquote><i>
The Court need not decide whether violating &#8220;restrictions on access to information&#8221;
contained in a website&#8217;s terms of use can ever support liability under the CFAA, because
Craigslist&#8217;s TOU contain only &#8220;use&#8221; restrictions, not true &#8220;access&#8221; restrictions as the term is
used in Nosal. Although the TOU include a section titled &#8220;Unauthorized Access and
Activities,&#8221; parts of which are framed in terms of &#8220;access,&#8221; these restrictions depend entirely
on the accessor&#8217;s purpose. TOU at 6-7 (prohibiting, e.g., &#8220;access to or use of craigslist to
design, develop, test, . . . or otherwise make available any program&#8221; that interacts with
Craigslist).
</i></blockquote>
That part is good.  But... unfortunately, the CFAA claims stay alive on two counts.  First, because Craigslist sent a cease and desist letter, the court says that violating that letter is unauthorized access.  That seems extreme and ridiculous in the same way the argument that violating a terms of service violates the CFAA.   The second issue is that Craigslist blocked the IP of 3taps... and 3taps (shocker) <i>changed their IP</i>.  The court actually argues that changing your IP address when it was blocked is a violation of the CFAA.  This is unfortunately similar to one of the arguments made against Aaron Swartz.
<blockquote><i>
Aside from the TOU, however, Craigslist specifically denied authorization to use the
website &#8220;for any purposes&#8221; in its cease and desist letters, Kao Decl. Ex. A, and also used
technological measures to block access from IP addresses associated with 3Taps, which Craigslist alleges that 3Taps bypassed by using different IP addresses and proxy servers to conceal its identity. Assuming that the CFAA encompasses information
generally available to the public such as Craigslist&#8217;s website, Defendants&#8217; continued use of Craigslist after the clear statements regarding authorization in the cease and desist letters and
the technological measures to block them constitutes unauthorized access under the statute.
</i></blockquote>
The EFF points out how ridiculous both of these claims are.  On the cease and desist:
<blockquote><i>
<b>Cease and Desist Letters Should Not Make Access to a Website Criminal</b>
<br /><br />
The CFAA is both a civil and a criminal statute.  This is a civil case, but has criminal ramifications. While the court looked at the earlier Facebook v. Power Ventures case, it misread a key holding.  There, the court recognized that imposing criminal liability based on the &#8220;receipt of a cease and desist letter would create a constitutionally untenable situation.&#8221;  This would put too much power in the hands of private parties to decide what a crime would be.
</i></blockquote>
And on the IP address change, EFF points out how changing IP addresses is a common thing that happens all the time:
<blockquote><i>
<b>Changing IP Addresses Is Not Hacking</b>
<br /><br />
The court&#8217;s ruling on IP address blocking is dangerous because it could criminalize innocent behavior.
<br /><br />
[....] There is nothing inherently improper, never mind unlawful, about switching IP addresses and thereby avoiding IP address blocking.  Moreover, when a website is available without restriction to the public, a private party should not be able turn access into a crime to back up owner preferences or terms of service with the weight of criminal authority. 
</i></blockquote>
Given all that, there are very serious problems with this ruling, and the fact that Craigslist is driving such dangerous precedents is quite upsetting for a company that has been so involved and so at the forefront of helping fight back against such abuses of the law.  Over at Freedom to Tinker, Steve Schultze asks Craigslist to <a href="https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/sjs/dear-craig-voluntarily-dismiss-with-prejudice/" target="_blank">dismiss the case with prejudice</a>, and I second that call.
<br /><br />
If Craig Newmark and Craigslist move forward with this lawsuit, which has the possibility of creating very dangerous precedents concerning both copyright law and the CFAA, it will do tremendous harm to Craigslist's reputation and standing in the wider internet community.  As Schultze notes, moving forward at this point, given the details in the latest ruling will just make Craig look petty and vindictive.  I know Craig and he's anything but vindictive and petty.  Destroying his reputation and acting out just because a couple of sites tried to make Craigslist more useful?  It just doesn't make any sense at all.  Hopefully Craig will realize this as well, and will call off his legal attack dogs, and think twice about future lawsuits of this nature.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130501/04342822905/craigslists-abuse-copyright-cfaa-to-attack-websites-that-make-craigslist-better-is-disgrace.shtml">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130501/04342822905/craigslists-abuse-copyright-cfaa-to-attack-websites-that-make-craigslist-better-is-disgrace.shtml#comments">Comments</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130501/04342822905/craigslists-abuse-copyright-cfaa-to-attack-websites-that-make-craigslist-better-is-disgrace.shtml?op=sharethis">Email This Story</a><br />
 ]]></description>
<slash:department>please-stop-this-craig</slash:department>
<wfw:commentRss>http://www.techdirt.com/comment_rss.php?sid=20130501/04342822905</wfw:commentRss>
</item>
<item>
<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2012 05:10:00 PDT</pubDate>
<title>Craigslist Quietly Begins Testing The Feature It Sued PadMapper For Adding</title>
<dc:creator>Mike Masnick</dc:creator>
<link>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120828/17414020198/craigslist-quietly-begins-testing-feature-it-sued-padmapper-adding.shtml</link>
<guid>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120828/17414020198/craigslist-quietly-begins-testing-feature-it-sued-padmapper-adding.shtml</guid>
<description><![CDATA[ Craigslist is somewhat famous for keeping its rather antiquated design, and refusing to make changes.  Even when well meaning fans have <a href="http://uxdesign.smashingmagazine.com/2009/03/11/redesigning-craigslist-with-focus-on-usability/" target="_blank">suggested</a> ideas for <a href="http://www.wired.com/entertainment/theweb/magazine/17-09/ff_craigslist_makeover" target="_blank">improving</a> the site, Craigslist has resisted, insisting that it's really just about design companies who are <a href="http://www.wired.com/entertainment/theweb/magazine/17-09/ff_craigslist?currentPage=all#" target="_blank">trying to get hired</a>.
<br /><br />
So that makes the following story all the more interesting.  You may recall that Craigslist has gotten itself into an unfortunate and petty <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120724/18071219816/disappointing-craigslist-sues-padmapper-making-craigslist-more-useful-valuable.shtml">legal spat</a> with the site PadMapper, because PadMapper dared to <i>make Craigslist more useful</i>, in part by putting Craigslist housing entries <i>on a map</i> so people could see where they are.  This is a pretty small, but incredibly useful tweak, and Craigslist -- normally a defender of internet freedom -- suddenly turned into a protectionist legal aggressor and sued.
<br /><br />
However, as Aaron DeOliveira points out to us, Craigslist has just started <a href="http://idealab.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/08/craigslist-maps-test-openstreetmap.php?utm_source=feedburner&#038;utm_medium=feed&#038;utm_campaign=Feed%3A+tpm-news+%28TPMNews%29" target="_blank">quietly testing out its own upgrade... using maps</a>.  They're using OpenStreetMap (which is interesting in its own right as more and more companies are <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120405/17321218398/google-maps-exodus-continues-as-wikipedia-mobile-apps-switch-to-openstreetmap.shtml">moving away</a> from Google Maps to the much more open (duh) OpenStreetMap).
<br /><br />
While there may not be a direct connection between PadMapper and Craigslist's decision, the timing certainly raises some eyebrows, and hints at the idea that Craigslist might just be suing PadMapper for improving Craigslist before Craigslist had a chance to launch the feature itself.  Or, even worse, Craigslist thought it was such a good idea that it sued PadMapper while using its idea.  That's not quite the "open innovation" model that Craig Newmark tries to champion.
<br /><br />
For what it's worth, PadMapper's Eric DeMenthon is actually <a href="http://www.wired.com/business/2012/08/craigslist-baby-steps-into-modernity/" target="_blank">quite conciliatory</a> about the whole thing:
<blockquote><i>
&#8220;I&#8217;m glad something good came out of all this,&#8221; says PadMapper creator Eric DeMenthon. &#8220;Lots of people wrote to them about the PadMapper cease and desist [letter], so maybe that convinced them that it was worthwhile to do some mapping themselves.
</i></blockquote>
Market research by suing those who try to improve you?  Doesn't seem like the most effective system.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120828/17414020198/craigslist-quietly-begins-testing-feature-it-sued-padmapper-adding.shtml">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120828/17414020198/craigslist-quietly-begins-testing-feature-it-sued-padmapper-adding.shtml#comments">Comments</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120828/17414020198/craigslist-quietly-begins-testing-feature-it-sued-padmapper-adding.shtml?op=sharethis">Email This Story</a><br />
 ]]></description>
<slash:department>market-research?</slash:department>
<wfw:commentRss>http://www.techdirt.com/comment_rss.php?sid=20120828/17414020198</wfw:commentRss>
</item>
<item>
<pubDate>Fri, 10 Aug 2012 14:15:13 PDT</pubDate>
<title>Craigslist Realizes It Went Too Far, No Longer Requires Exclusive License To Your Posts</title>
<dc:creator>Mike Masnick</dc:creator>
<link>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120810/03191019986/craigslist-realizes-it-went-too-far-no-longer-requires-exclusive-license-to-your-posts.shtml</link>
<guid>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120810/03191019986/craigslist-realizes-it-went-too-far-no-longer-requires-exclusive-license-to-your-posts.shtml</guid>
<description><![CDATA[ We've been noting some questionable behavior on the part of Craigslist lately, including its change in policy in which it tried to claim <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120801/16040019908/craigslist-demands-exclusive-license-your-posts.shtml">an <b><i>exclusive</i></b> license</a> to everything you post on the site.  This was of dubious legality already, and it appears that Craigslist has realized that it was going way too far.  It's now <a href="https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/08/good-news-craigslist-drops-exclusive-license-your-posts" target="_blank">dropped the exclusivity requirement</a>, though has remained (typically) quiet about its thinking.  Hopefully this is a sign that the company is actually paying attention to the public outcry about its recent bullying techniques.  Craigslist (and Craig himself) have such a great reputation for being "good" players on the internet, it would be a shame if they hurt their reputation with moves that are so antithetical to the open internet.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120810/03191019986/craigslist-realizes-it-went-too-far-no-longer-requires-exclusive-license-to-your-posts.shtml">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120810/03191019986/craigslist-realizes-it-went-too-far-no-longer-requires-exclusive-license-to-your-posts.shtml#comments">Comments</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120810/03191019986/craigslist-realizes-it-went-too-far-no-longer-requires-exclusive-license-to-your-posts.shtml?op=sharethis">Email This Story</a><br />
 ]]></description>
<slash:department>non-exclusive</slash:department>
<wfw:commentRss>http://www.techdirt.com/comment_rss.php?sid=20120810/03191019986</wfw:commentRss>
</item>
<item>
<pubDate>Fri, 3 Aug 2012 03:13:17 PDT</pubDate>
<title>NY Times Picks Up On The Fact That Craigslist Has Become A Legal Bully Against Anyone Who Makes Its Site Better</title>
<dc:creator>Mike Masnick</dc:creator>
<link>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120730/03334319875/ny-times-picks-up-fact-that-craigslist-has-become-legal-bully-against-anyone-who-makes-its-site-better.shtml</link>
<guid>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120730/03334319875/ny-times-picks-up-fact-that-craigslist-has-become-legal-bully-against-anyone-who-makes-its-site-better.shtml</guid>
<description><![CDATA[ We've written a few times about how Craigslist, for all the good things it's done over the years, has lately turned into a <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120724/18071219816/disappointing-craigslist-sues-padmapper-making-craigslist-more-useful-valuable.shtml">legal bully</a> against any site that makes its offering more useful.  That's significant for a variety of  reasons.  First off, Craigslist's own site continues to be woefully out of date, and increasingly less useful in its current form.  But, more importantly, Craigslist has often led the charge for a more open internet, yet seems to react legally when such an open internet creates new and useful services built off its own work.
<br /><br />
Even the NY Times is now <a href="http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/29/when-craigslist-blocks-innovations-disruptions/?smid=tw-nytimesbits&#038;seid=auto" target="_blank">taking note of Craigslist's legal-bullying ways</a>, even catching Craig Newmark himself (who I know and like) being less than forthright in how the company attacks all sorts of other sites with legal threats and lawsuits.  First, it lists out a number of other threats that Craigslist has sent out over the years:
<blockquote><i>
One, a site called <a title="The site." href="http://www.craigslittlebuddy.com/">Craigs Little Buddy</a>, could search multiple Craigslist cities at once &#8212; a simple feature that Craigslist doesn&#8217;t offer. Another site, Craigsly, helped people set up e-mail alerts when a certain type of listing, like a specific car or apartment for sale, was posted in their area. Another, <a title="The Ziink site, with non-functioning links." href="https://sites.google.com/site/ziinkext/craigslist-helper">Ziink Craigslist Helper</a>, which offered a free browser plug-in that made navigating listings easier, was also shut down by Craigslist lawyers.
</i></blockquote>
Later, it notes that Craig has claimed that they only go after sites that "consume a lot of bandwidth."  That statement sounds slightly more defensible, even as bandwidth has gotten cheaper and cheaper over the years, and most crawlers really aren't that intrusive.  Also, if that were the case, why not <i>first</i> try expanding its <a href="http://www.craigslist.org/robots.txt" target="_blank">robots.txt file</a> to see if the crawlers respect that?
<br /><br />
But, in this case, Craig is not being truthful.  The lawsuit we wrote about last week, against Padmapper and 3taps, does not appear to involve companies that consume a lot of Craigslists' bandwidth.  3taps claims that it actually pulls the data from Google's cache, and PadMapper was using 3taps for its Craigslist data.
<br /><br />
I have tremendous respect for Craig and CEO Jim Buckmaster for many of the things they've done over the years.  And I've regularly defended them on Techdirt when others went after them for things.  But I find these legal actions perplexing, at best.  It's one thing to not like others improving on your work.  But to send the lawyers after them is just flat out bullying, from an organization who should know better.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120730/03334319875/ny-times-picks-up-fact-that-craigslist-has-become-legal-bully-against-anyone-who-makes-its-site-better.shtml">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120730/03334319875/ny-times-picks-up-fact-that-craigslist-has-become-legal-bully-against-anyone-who-makes-its-site-better.shtml#comments">Comments</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120730/03334319875/ny-times-picks-up-fact-that-craigslist-has-become-legal-bully-against-anyone-who-makes-its-site-better.shtml?op=sharethis">Email This Story</a><br />
 ]]></description>
<slash:department>sad-to-see</slash:department>
<wfw:commentRss>http://www.techdirt.com/comment_rss.php?sid=20120730/03334319875</wfw:commentRss>
</item>
<item>
<pubDate>Thu, 2 Aug 2012 03:53:22 PDT</pubDate>
<title>Craigslist Demands 'Exclusive License' On Your Posts</title>
<dc:creator>Mike Masnick</dc:creator>
<link>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120801/16040019908/craigslist-demands-exclusive-license-your-posts.shtml</link>
<guid>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120801/16040019908/craigslist-demands-exclusive-license-your-posts.shtml</guid>
<description><![CDATA[ When Craigslist <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120724/18071219816/disappointing-craigslist-sues-padmapper-making-craigslist-more-useful-valuable.shtml">sued PadMapper and 3taps</a>, we questioned the legal basis for much of the lawsuit, in particular the claim that Craigslist even could sue over copyright, when any copyrightable content is created by the end-users and not Craigslist itself.  It appears that someone at Craigslist realized that it was somewhere very close to the <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110614/17302814695/judge-rules-that-righthaven-lawsuit-was-sham-threatens-sanctions.shtml">Righthaven line</a> in claiming a bare right to sue over someone else's work, and made a tweak, demanding "exclusive" rights. 
<br /><br />
 I first saw this <a href="http://slashdot.org/story/12/08/01/1546215/craigslist-demands-exclusivity-for-postings?utm_source=slashdot&#038;utm_medium=twitter" target="_blank">via Slashdot</a> on <a href="http://baligu.blogspot.com/2012/08/i-dont-remember-seeing-this-before-at.html" target="_blank">the Baligu blog</a>, and was trying to go through the legal implications, but thankfully, Tim Lee over at Ars Technica did all the heavy lifting for us in <a href="http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/08/craigslist-tightens-grip-demanding-exclusive-ownership-of-ads/" target="_blank">speaking to IP lawyers James Grimmelmann and Mark Lyon</a> who are quite skeptical of this move.
<br /><br />
What's odd is that this "change" isn't even to its <a href="http://www.craigslist.org/about/terms.of.use" target="_blank">terms of use</a>, which don't actually claim an exclusive license.  Instead, the company has just added text to the <i>posting page</i> saying that you are granting the company such a right:
<blockquote><i>
Clicking "Continue" confirms that craigslist is the <b>exclusive licensee</b> of this content, with the <b>exclusive right</b> to enforce copyrights against anyone copying, republishing, distributing or preparing derivative works without its consent.
</i></blockquote>
The theory, as Lee notes, is probably that by more forcefully claiming exclusive rights, perhaps it can get over the hump and have the right to actually enforce those copyrights -- but that legal theory is speculative at best.
<br /><br />
It's kind of interesting, because someone could also potentially argue that this statement contradicts the company's own terms of use since they're different but perhaps more interesting are the wider legal questions raised by this -- including what happens if you, the user, post your classified ad to any other site.  Craigslist seems to be claiming that it can go after those other sites (and, um, potentially you, I think...) for reposting "its" work.  That's crazy and something that completely goes against Craigslist's standard "user-friendly" approach to everything.
<br /><br />
Once again, this is showing how Craigslist's pursuit of these kinds of legal issues really seems to go against what made Craigslist so successful, turning the company into much more of a cranky legal bully.  Lots of companies that start out innovative and open, do later change and flip sides on things like this, but Craigslist always seemed like the kind of company that would stay on the right side of the "evil line."  It's too bad to see that it seems to be so aggressively diving over to the copyright bully side of the line.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120801/16040019908/craigslist-demands-exclusive-license-your-posts.shtml">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120801/16040019908/craigslist-demands-exclusive-license-your-posts.shtml#comments">Comments</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120801/16040019908/craigslist-demands-exclusive-license-your-posts.shtml?op=sharethis">Email This Story</a><br />
 ]]></description>
<slash:department>good-luck-with-that...</slash:department>
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<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jul 2012 07:12:12 PDT</pubDate>
<title>Disappointing: Craigslist Sues Padmapper For Making Craigslist More Useful &#038; Valuable</title>
<dc:creator>Mike Masnick</dc:creator>
<link>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120724/18071219816/disappointing-craigslist-sues-padmapper-making-craigslist-more-useful-valuable.shtml</link>
<guid>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120724/18071219816/disappointing-craigslist-sues-padmapper-making-craigslist-more-useful-valuable.shtml</guid>
<description><![CDATA[ A few weeks ago, we wrote about the unfortunate news that Craigslist was continuing its <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110906/03432815809/craigslist-continues-to-be-legal-bully-when-it-comes-to-aggregators.shtml">old practice</a> of bullying aggregator sites who added value to Craigslist listings and sent more traffic to the site, with a <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120622/22474419443/unfortunate-craigslist-continues-to-be-walled-garden.shtml">legal threat</a> against the popular real estate site PadMapper.  PadMapper takes a variety of real estate listings and adds value to them, such as by adding an embeddable map to show you where it is.  However, it still directs the user back to the original.  In many ways, it's no different than what something like Google does.  Unfortunately, rather than call off the legal dogs, Craigslist has decided to <a href="http://gigaom.com/2012/07/24/craigslist-sues-competitor-padmapper-over-listings/" target="_blank">go forward and sue PadMapper</a>, along with 3rd party data provider 3taps.  PadMapper had started using data from 3taps, rather than scraping Craigslist directly, on the belief that such a move would get around the legal issues.
<br /><br />
The legal filing is below, and as with some of Craigslist's <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20091008/2324416469.shtml">earlier</a> lawsuits, this one raises a bunch of legal issues that are highly questionable.  A lawsuit of this nature is much more suited to an old legacy gatekeeper, rather than a company that is supposedly of the internet generation.  To say it's disappointing that Craigslist would engage in these kinds of tactics is an understatement.
<br /><br />
The key arguments are that these services violate Craigslists' copyrights and trademarks.  Neither claim seems particularly strong.  In fact, both seem exceptionally weak.  The internet would be a much worse place if either claim was found to be correct in court -- and it's surprising that Craig Newmark, who has fought the good fight for internet freedom, including being a major supporter of the Internet Defense League -- would move forward with such claims that could damage the basic workings of the internet.
<br /><br />
The copyright claim is an odd one.  Most of the content on Craigslist is created by the users, not by Craigslist.  The <a href="http://www.craigslist.org/about/terms.of.use" target="_blank">Craigslist terms of use</a> shows that users do not directly assign their copyrights to Craigslist (in fact, they're pretty explicit that "CL does not control, is not responsible for and makes no representations or warranties with respect to any user content").  However, users <i>do</i> provide a rather complete license to the works, including the right to sue over the copying of the work:
<blockquote><i>
You also expressly grant and assign to CL all rights and causes of action to prohibit and enforce against any unauthorized copying, performance, display, distribution, use or exploitation of, or creation of derivative works from, any content that you post (including but not limited to any unauthorized downloading, extraction, harvesting, collection or aggregation of content that you post). 
</i></blockquote>
In light of the <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110614/17302814695/judge-rules-that-righthaven-lawsuit-was-sham-threatens-sanctions.shtml">Righthaven debacle</a> in which it was made clear that you cannot assign the bare right to sue, I'm curious if this particular clause is actually enforceable.  Perhaps the assigning of "all rights" could be interpreted to mean the actual copyrights were assigned, but it's not that clear.
<br /><br />
Either way, I'm still not convinced that the actions in question wouldn't then be covered by fair use.  Sites like PadMapper are collecting mostly <i>factual data</i>.  In looking around at Padmapper, including a number of Craigslist listings, all of the information provided appears to be factual.  Here's an example:
<center>
<a href="http://imgur.com/9tTab"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/9tTab.png" width=300 /></a>
</center>
All of the info is factual.  It does not include the Craigslist writeup.  It just includes information like price, number of bedrooms, bathrooms and location.  That information is simply not subject to copyright.  Furthermore, it appears to take none of Craigslist's look and feel.  To suggest that it's infringement to collect and post that, non-copyrightable, information is ridiculous.
<br /><br />
In its complaint, Craigslist points to the actual listings pages, claiming that PadMapper violates its copyright because it displays "misappropriated craigslist content."  As far as I can tell that's not true.  What PadMapper appears to do is to display <i>actual Craigslist pages</i>, but do so with a frame, showing its own toolbar on the lefthand side.  That is, it's not copying Craigslist content or republishing it, but sending users to Craigslist, and providing additional (and quite useful) tools.  Example below:
<center>
<a href="http://imgur.com/xGhCr"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/xGhCr.png" width=560 /></a>
</center>
That right hand frame is served from Craigslist itself, not Padmapper.
<br /><br />
The claim against 3taps might be a bit stronger, since it runs a site that appears to host content copied from Craigslist -- which 3taps then claims is public domain.  That claim is questionable.  3taps CEO, Greg Kidd, told Jeff Roberts at GigaOm "that his company doesn&#8217;t &#8220;scrape&#8221; Craigslist but simply draws on data available on the public internet in the same way that other search engines do."  That doesn't make much sense, because the way that other search engines work <i>is</i> to scrape content.  Still, considering that search engines are considered legal, one could make an argument that 3taps is no different.
<br /><br />
The second major claim in the lawsuit is even weaker.  It's a trademark claim against both companies.  Again, the argument against 3taps has slightly more credibility, since 3taps runs a (nicely designed) site called "craiggers."  However, the site clearly has a tagline stating: "craigslist data, better than craigslist."  I think most people would automatically assume, then, that the site has no relationship with Craigslist.   When it comes to PadMapper, it's unclear how anyone could possibly be confused.  The site is PadMapper and it sends people to Craigslist.  There's simply no confusion there at all.
<br /><br />
3taps' display of some of the data possibly represents a legal issue, but if any, it's a pretty minor one.  It's difficult to see how making the data in Craigslist more useful creates any sort of "harm" for Craigslist <i>at all</i>.  The arguments against PadMapper seem laughable to atrocious.  Either way, for a company that often presents itself both as a strong defender of internet freedoms <i>and</i> as one that relies on safe harbor rules like the CDA 230, it's disappointing to see Craigslist become a legal bully over other sites who don't take away from Craigslist at all, but rather make the (increasingly out-of-date) site a lot more useful.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120724/18071219816/disappointing-craigslist-sues-padmapper-making-craigslist-more-useful-valuable.shtml">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120724/18071219816/disappointing-craigslist-sues-padmapper-making-craigslist-more-useful-valuable.shtml#comments">Comments</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120724/18071219816/disappointing-craigslist-sues-padmapper-making-craigslist-more-useful-valuable.shtml?op=sharethis">Email This Story</a><br />
 ]]></description>
<slash:department>call-off-the-dogs,-craig</slash:department>
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<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2012 20:29:00 PDT</pubDate>
<title>If Newspapers Had Never Offered Free News Online... They Would Still Be Failing</title>
<dc:creator>Mike Masnick</dc:creator>
<link>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120624/15060119451/if-newspapers-had-never-offered-free-news-online-they-would-still-be-failing.shtml</link>
<guid>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120624/15060119451/if-newspapers-had-never-offered-free-news-online-they-would-still-be-failing.shtml</guid>
<description><![CDATA[ <a href="https://twitter.com/mathewi/statuses/216972085703098368" target="_blank">Mathew Ingram</a> points us to a column by yet another "old school journalist," Leonard Pitts Jr., <a href="http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/editorialsopinion/2018504902_pitts24.html" target="_blank">lamenting the trouble that newspapers are having today</a>, which once again includes the two most popular ridiculous "tropes" of old school journalists.  First, the claim that people think that professional journalists will just be replaced by citizen journalists.  That's misleading.  People think that citizen journalists can help create better journalism, but I don't know anyone who thinks that you get rid of all professional journalists.  Pitts speaks eloquently about how journalists like himself parachute into dangerous areas and report on what's going on there -- and he suggests no citizen journalists could possibly do that.  That's kind of insulting to all of the people who <i>already are</i> in those places.  And, again, no one says that professional journalists go away.  It's just that the role of a journalist changes somewhat.  
<br /><br />
But the bigger, more ridiculous claim, is the one that newspapers never should have posted free content online:
<blockquote><i>
Rather, the state of daily newspaper journalism only proves English majors should not be allowed to make business decisions. Only English majors could give their product away (i.e., online), then be surprised to see revenues decline.
</i></blockquote>
We've <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090817/0141545897.shtml">debunked</a> this ridiculous trope in the past.  Lots (tons, in fact) of newspapers <i>did</i> try to charge online.  And you know what happened?  Their revenue declined.  Because no one signed up.  Those early experiments were all failures.  People just started going elsewhere for news anyway.  And the real issue, of course, is that it wasn't "the news" that was the newspapers' true business in the first place: it was bringing together a local community (around the news) and then selling the attention of that community to advertisers.
<br /><br />
But the market changed.  Craigslist showed that you didn't need a newspaper (or to pay high prices) to do "classifieds."  The web created other types of communities as well, such as communities of interests, rather than communities of location, like newspapers.  But (for the most part) newspaper industry folks still refuse to understand this.  They think that they're in the "business of news" and so they think that they need to get people to pay for news.  And the end result is fewer people in their audience -- meaning a smaller community and much less interest in anyone paying to get the attention of that community.
<br /><br />
The failure isn't the failure to charge.  It was the failure to innovate and to recognize that they needed to be building stronger communities.  And, of course, one way to do that would be to... <em>empower citizens to be journalists as well</em>.  But apparently that's not allowed in the mindset of old school journalists either.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120624/15060119451/if-newspapers-had-never-offered-free-news-online-they-would-still-be-failing.shtml">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120624/15060119451/if-newspapers-had-never-offered-free-news-online-they-would-still-be-failing.shtml#comments">Comments</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120624/15060119451/if-newspapers-had-never-offered-free-news-online-they-would-still-be-failing.shtml?op=sharethis">Email This Story</a><br />
 ]]></description>
<slash:department>besides,-they-tried-that</slash:department>
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<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2012 07:07:00 PDT</pubDate>
<title>Unfortunate: Craigslist Continues To Be A Walled Garden</title>
<dc:creator>Mike Masnick</dc:creator>
<link>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120622/22474419443/unfortunate-craigslist-continues-to-be-walled-garden.shtml</link>
<guid>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120622/22474419443/unfortunate-craigslist-continues-to-be-walled-garden.shtml</guid>
<description><![CDATA[ For many years I've been a big supporter of Craigslist, both as a user and an observer of innovative businesses.  I've even argued that the company itself is too modest in pretending that <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20061218/010854.shtml">it isn't</a> a profit-maximizing firm.  I've frequently defended the company when it was attacked with bogus lawsuits.  However, for years, I've been baffled by Craigslist's insistence on being isolationist against the rest of the internet.  Almost exactly seven years ago, we were disappointed to see they were <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20050628/0225236_F.shtml">shutting down</a> a search tool that made Craigslist easier to use.  And, over the years, we've seen this same consistent pattern, whereby the company gets upset at anyone who builds on their work -- even if it takes no money away from Craigslist and likely drives more traffic to the site. Just last year, for example, we wrote about Craigslist <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110906/03432815809/craigslist-continues-to-be-legal-bully-when-it-comes-to-aggregators.shtml">bullying</a> an online aggregator.
<br /><br />
Late last week, it went down this same path yet again, but this time it picked on a service that's really really popular (more so than most of the others it targets): PadMapper.  PadMapper is a pretty neat tool if you're looking for a place to live.  It builds on a few different listings sites -- including Craigslist -- to provide much more value to the listing itself, such as by including an embedded map.  It sends all the traffic <i>to</i> the original site, so it's not taking away any traffic.  It's <i>enhancing</i> Craigslist's value.  When others increase your value, you should applaud.  But, here, as in the past, Craigslist <a href="http://blog.padmapper.com/2012/06/22/bye-bye-craigslist/" target="_blank">sent a legal cease-and-desist</a>.
<br /><br />
Craigslist has regularly defended these takedowns, by claiming that it just wants people to come directly to its site, and that's part of its view of the "community."  But, again, PadMapper was driving more people to the site and making it even more useful to them.
<br /><br />
What's interesting this time, however, is that given how popular PadMapper is, and the fact that the guy behind PadMapper is asking people to (politely) suggest to Craig and Jim that they rethink this policy, I wonder if the company will finally change its mind.  It's been getting a lot of attention in the tech/startup community.  Even though Craigslist has done this before many times, this is the first I can remember doing it to a site that is so popular.
<br /><br />
As I've said in the past, I think Craigslist is making a big mistake in blocking these kinds of things.  I recognize their reasoning, but at this point, it's just silly.  The rationale for blocking these other sites just doesn't add up.  There's simply no reason to not be "neighborly" and allow others to drive more traffic to them.  It's definitely disappointing to see the company keep this policy up for so long.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120622/22474419443/unfortunate-craigslist-continues-to-be-walled-garden.shtml">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120622/22474419443/unfortunate-craigslist-continues-to-be-walled-garden.shtml#comments">Comments</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120622/22474419443/unfortunate-craigslist-continues-to-be-walled-garden.shtml?op=sharethis">Email This Story</a><br />
 ]]></description>
<slash:department>share-a-little,-guys</slash:department>
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<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jun 2012 07:07:00 PDT</pubDate>
<title>Washington State Tries To Criminalize Service Providers For User Behavior; Internet Archive Sues</title>
<dc:creator>Mike Masnick</dc:creator>
<link>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120615/15111319349/washington-state-tries-to-criminalize-service-providers-user-behavior-internet-archive-sues.shtml</link>
<guid>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120615/15111319349/washington-state-tries-to-criminalize-service-providers-user-behavior-internet-archive-sues.shtml</guid>
<description><![CDATA[ For years, we've talked about the importance of Section 230 in <i>properly</i> applying liability directed at the actual people who break laws, rather than the tools and services they use.  Unfortunately, some people fail to make a distinction and love to blame service providers.  And... once it gets into areas that make people react emotionally, things get ridiculous.  For example, we've written a few times about the misguided <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120503/04232018757/misguided-senators-propose-plan-to-make-it-harder-law-enforcement-to-track-down-human-trafficking-online.shtml">attacks on Backpage.com</a>, which only came about <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100921/11573211096/state-ags-now-targeting-backpage-after-forcing-craigslist-to-stop-helping-them-pursue-lawbreakers.shtml">because</a> of similar <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100915/15125911029.shtml">misguided attacks</a> on Craigslist.  At issue was that both sites had been used for prostitution and sex trafficking.  But, rather than do the <i>sensible</i> thing and work with those platforms -- who both have programs to do exactly this -- to make it easier for law enforcement to find and prosecute those involved in such efforts, grandstanding politicians and activists blamed the service providers, driving the actual activities further underground.  Of course, they have never had any real legal argument, and the lawsuits have <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110819/02211215597/as-expected-backpage-is-not-liable-prostitution-ads.shtml">fallen flat</a>.  
<br /><br />
However, it appears that some politicians in Washington State decided to pass a state law (<a href="http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summary.aspx?bill=6251" target="_blank">SB 6251</a>) which targets service providers.  It's one of those laws that it's easy for politicians to get behind without realizing what they're actually doing.  They think they're "protecting the children" but they're actually making the problem significantly worse.  That's because they're not setting up a better way to track down and stop those actually responsible, but rather are simply telling them to move further underground, where it will be even harder to stop them.
<br /><br />
And, of course, in their zeal to "protect the children" the politicians who passed this bill wrote it so broadly that it can create massive problems for tons of legitimate online service providers.  The Internet Archive, represented by the EFF, has <a href="https://www.eff.org/press/releases/internet-archive-sues-stop-new-washington-state-law" target="_blank">filed to join a lawsuit (from Backpage) against the law</a>, pointing out that it clearly violates Section 230 of the CDA, which providers the necessary safe harbors for service providers.  The overreach of the Washington law is pretty astounding:
<blockquote><i>
SB 6251 would effectively coerce, by threat of felony prosecution, online
service providers to become censors of third-party users' content by threatening five years
imprisonment and a $10,000 fine per violation against anyone who knowingly publishes,
disseminates or displays or anyone who &#8220;indirectly&#8221; &#8220;causes&#8221; the publication, dissemination, or
display of content that contains an explicit or even &#8220;implicit&#8221; offer of any sexual contact for
&#8220;something of value&#8221; in Washington if the content includes an image that turns out to be of a
minor. Because of its expansive language (i.e., &#8220;indirectly&#8221; &#8220;causes&#8221;), the law could be applied
not only to online classified ad services like Backpage.com <b>but also to any web site that
provides access to third-party content, including user comments, reviews, chats, and discussion
forums, and to social networking sites, search engines, Internet service providers, and more.</b> A
law that takes such an overbroad approach is of serious concern to the Internet Archive, which
aims to serve as a library for the Internet, and accordingly, houses more than 150 billion web
pages archived since 1996.
<br /><br />
The law expressly states that it is not a defense that the defendant did not know
that the image was of a minor. Instead, <b>to avoid prosecution, the defendant must obtain
governmental or educational identification for the person(s) depicted in the post (notably, even
if that ID does not contain a photograph). This means that service providers &#8211; no matter where
headquartered or operated &#8211; may be asked to review each and every piece of third-party content
accessible through their services to determine whether the content is an &#8220;implicit&#8221; ad for a
commercial sex act in Washington, whether it includes a depiction of a person, and, if so,
obtain and maintain a record of the person&#8217;s ID</b>. These obligations would severely impede the
practice of hosting third-party content online.
</i></blockquote>
I'm sure the folks behind this law had the best of intentions.  Sex trafficking of underage persons is a very real and horrific problem (even if the numbers bandied about are <a href="http://www.villagevoice.com/2011-06-29/news/real-men-get-their-facts-straight-sex-trafficking-ashton-kutcher-demi-moore/" target="_blank">massively exaggerated</a>).  But the real solution is to go after the actual perpetrators, and that means working with service providers to help track them down -- not criminalizing the service providers in a way that kills off lots of legitimate activity as well.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120615/15111319349/washington-state-tries-to-criminalize-service-providers-user-behavior-internet-archive-sues.shtml">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120615/15111319349/washington-state-tries-to-criminalize-service-providers-user-behavior-internet-archive-sues.shtml#comments">Comments</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120615/15111319349/washington-state-tries-to-criminalize-service-providers-user-behavior-internet-archive-sues.shtml?op=sharethis">Email This Story</a><br />
 ]]></description>
<slash:department>section-230,-have-you-read-it?</slash:department>
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<pubDate>Thu, 3 May 2012 10:55:00 PDT</pubDate>
<title>Misguided Senators Propose Plan To Make It Harder For Law Enforcement To Track Down Human Trafficking Online</title>
<dc:creator>Mike Masnick</dc:creator>
<link>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120503/04232018757/misguided-senators-propose-plan-to-make-it-harder-law-enforcement-to-track-down-human-trafficking-online.shtml</link>
<guid>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120503/04232018757/misguided-senators-propose-plan-to-make-it-harder-law-enforcement-to-track-down-human-trafficking-online.shtml</guid>
<description><![CDATA[ We've been covering the bizarre (mostly publicity-motivated) attacks on the Village Voice's Backpage.com site for a while.  Those efforts have been ramping up, and every day I seem to get press releases from some ridiculous group that is apparently coordinating this misguided and dangerous attack.  It appears that some of the silly publicity stunt is working, with Senators Richard Blumenthal, Mark Kirk, John Cornyn, Sheldon Whitehouse and Marco Rubio all supporting a "resolution" <a href="http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/225089-senators-urge-village-voice-to-pull-online-sex-ads?utm_campaign=HilliconValley&#038;utm_source=twitterfeed&#038;utm_medium=twitter" target="_blank">demanding Backpage take down its "adult entertainment" section</a>.  We've seen this battle before.  Craigslist went through the same ridiculous <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100904/23124610907.shtml">moral panic</a> a few years ago.  And all it did was drive all of this traffic elsewhere -- with a lot of it settling on Backpage.   Of course, that effort was led by then Connecticut Attorney General Richard Blumenthal, before he became a Senator -- so it's no surprise that he's involved in this pointeless effort as well.
<br /><br />
Here's the thing: we already know how this game plays out.  You can browbeat these companies into shutting off this part of their forums against their own will, and many of them will cave.  And you'll celebrate victory, but as you do that, everyone will be rapidly exploring alternatives, which most will move to pretty quickly.  In other words, such a crackdown won't do a damn thing to stop people from actually being exploited.  Even worse, in pressuring that content to scatter, it becomes much more difficult for law enforcement to track down and arrest the <i>real</i> criminals who are abusing the system.  But nothing in getting Backpage to turn off this section actually helps to stop such trafficking/prostitution.  It just makes life that much more difficult for law enforcement, since they now need to do a lot more work to track down the people abusing these laws.  I fail to see how that's a positive result, as the government has insisted.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120503/04232018757/misguided-senators-propose-plan-to-make-it-harder-law-enforcement-to-track-down-human-trafficking-online.shtml">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120503/04232018757/misguided-senators-propose-plan-to-make-it-harder-law-enforcement-to-track-down-human-trafficking-online.shtml#comments">Comments</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120503/04232018757/misguided-senators-propose-plan-to-make-it-harder-law-enforcement-to-track-down-human-trafficking-online.shtml?op=sharethis">Email This Story</a><br />
 ]]></description>
<slash:department>you're-doing-it-wrong</slash:department>
<wfw:commentRss>http://www.techdirt.com/comment_rss.php?sid=20120503/04232018757</wfw:commentRss>
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<pubDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2012 17:33:00 PDT</pubDate>
<title>When You Create Value It Doesn't Mean You Have To Capture Every Bit Of That Value</title>
<dc:creator>Mike Masnick</dc:creator>
<link>http://www.techdirt.com/blog/innovation/articles/20120426/20121618675/when-you-create-value-it-doesnt-mean-you-have-to-capture-every-bit-that-value.shtml</link>
<guid>http://www.techdirt.com/blog/innovation/articles/20120426/20121618675/when-you-create-value-it-doesnt-mean-you-have-to-capture-every-bit-that-value.shtml</guid>
<description><![CDATA[ As I discussed in my Hacking Society post, one of the things I'm thinking a lot about these days is how to measure <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120425/01215118644/hacking-society-its-time-to-measure-unmeasurable.shtml">value that isn't directly monetized</a>.  There's a related aspect to all of this, as well: recognizing that when you create value, you <i>don't have to monetize all of it directly yourself</i>.  Historically, in economics, they've talked about things like "externalities" and "spillovers" when discussing parts of the economic value chain that can't be controlled or monetized directly.  However, it seems like a growing number of economists are realizing that this <i>undersells</i> what's happening.  Externalities and spillovers often feel like a small thing -- a tangential bit tossed off to the side.  But when you're dealing with information and digital goods, it's important to recognize that these things can be a <i>major</i> part of the market, and may not be controllable at all.  And that may be a good thing.
<br /><br />
In the discussion we had about Craigslist, one of the points was that while Craigslist itself only "captures" a small part of the value it's unleashed, that's not necessarily bad.  First, it's good because much of that value to go out to the users of Craigslist themselves.  That's why they appreciate and use Craigslist in the first place.  If Craigslist tried to capture all of that value itself, people would stop using Craigslist.  Now some may argue it becomes a different situation when you have third parties monetizing some of that value, but I disagree.  When you look at the most successful companies in the world, they're often platforms -- they create value and capture some of it, but also allow much of that value to be monetized by others.
<br /><br />
Look at Microsoft, Apple, Google and Facebook.  All of them created a massive amount of value -- and all have become phenomenally successful companies -- but all of them did so by also letting others monetize large portions of the value they created.  It's how you build a more long-lasting ecosystem from which you can continue to profit from over time.  If you seek to capture all of the value yourself, you don't last very long.
<br /><br />
I got to thinking about this more, after hearing the CEO of The Economist (who, one would hope, would understand these economic concepts) <a href="http://paidcontent.org/2012/04/26/economistflipboard/?utm_source=dlvr.it&#038;utm_medium=twitter" target="_blank">complaining about Flipboard capturing some of the value The Economist creates</a>, and declaring it a "competitor" to The Economist's own digital and app ambitions.
<blockquote><i>
&#8220;But you&#8217;re heading down a route we&#8217;ve seen before &#8211; <b>giving the opportunity to extract value to somebody else in an area that should be our own &#8211; so Flipboard is problematic.</b>&#8221;
</i></blockquote>
Of course, that ignores the fact that Flipboard -- an aggregator app -- provides its own value as well.   People don't use Flipboard <i>just</i> because it includes content from The Economist.  They use it because of the overall experience <i>and</i> the fact that it aggregates content from lots of different sources in one place.  As much as The Economist, or any publication, might like to "own" the reader, that's not necessarily what the reader wants.  Letting others "extract" some of that "value" can actually be a really good thing.  Flipboard provides a useful service for The Economist in not only experimenting with new ways to aggregate and present content -- from which The Economist can learn -- but also in potentially expanding The Economist's audience as well, feeding much greater value back into that ecosystem.
<br /><br />
Yes, companies need to look at the overall market and see where it is they can extract value -- but you have to wonder about those who claim eminent domain over certain parts of the marketplace.  Letting others extract some (and perhaps <i>lots</i>) of that value can have tremendous benefits for those who do so.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.techdirt.com/blog/innovation/articles/20120426/20121618675/when-you-create-value-it-doesnt-mean-you-have-to-capture-every-bit-that-value.shtml">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/blog/innovation/articles/20120426/20121618675/when-you-create-value-it-doesnt-mean-you-have-to-capture-every-bit-that-value.shtml#comments">Comments</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/blog/innovation/articles/20120426/20121618675/when-you-create-value-it-doesnt-mean-you-have-to-capture-every-bit-that-value.shtml?op=sharethis">Email This Story</a><br />
 ]]></description>
<slash:department>share-the-value</slash:department>
<wfw:commentRss>http://www.techdirt.com/comment_rss.php?sid=20120426/20121618675</wfw:commentRss>
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<pubDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2012 06:03:00 PDT</pubDate>
<title>Hacking Society: It's Time To Measure The Unmeasurable</title>
<dc:creator>Mike Masnick</dc:creator>
<link>http://www.techdirt.com/blog/innovation/articles/20120425/01215118644/hacking-society-its-time-to-measure-unmeasurable.shtml</link>
<guid>http://www.techdirt.com/blog/innovation/articles/20120425/01215118644/hacking-society-its-time-to-measure-unmeasurable.shtml</guid>
<description><![CDATA[ I was lucky enough to attend a small gathering of great thinkers put together by Union Square Ventures earlier this week for an event they called <a href="http://hackingsociety.us/" target="_blank">Hacking Society</a> -- which was designed to be a one day open conversation on the economics and power of networks, and how to use that as a force for good, in solving economic and social challenges.  There were lots of great thoughts  that came out of the event (which was live streamed over the web for people to listen in and participate via Twitter -- as many did).  It would be impossible to sum up all of the great points in a single blog post, so I'm just going to discuss briefly the larger themes that hit me and helped to connect a few disparate ideas in my own mind.
<br /><br />
The first issue was the role of incumbents (of all kinds) in trying to block innovation.  As Clay Shirky amusingly repeated the so-called "Shirky Principle" (not named by him, but for him) on command a few times, <i>"institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution."</i>  Economics professor Luigi Zingales made a similar point, but from a slightly different perspective, noting that <i>"All entrepreneurs want a free market when they enter and don't want one after they win."</i>  That's just another way of showing the nature of incumbents under crony capitalism.  Rep. Jim Cooper also made a similar point, noting that <i>"The past, in general, is over-represented in Washington. The future has no lobbyists."</i>
<br /><br />
These are all variations on the same basic theme -- which all of us know is a significant problem.  Of course, we've seen this many times over -- and it's certainly true on one of the key issues we talk about, intellectual property.  If you look through the history of intellectual property expansion, it tends to <i>slow</i> innovation.  That is,  you get areas where there is great innovation, often with little to no protections, and it's <i>then</i> that incumbents demand protectionism in the form of greater IP laws and enforcement.  It's a way to lock in their success, and limit disruptive upstarts.  It is, as Zingales was saying, a case where the free market is useful until they've won -- and then they use the laws to try to protect their position.
<br /><br />
But how do we deal with this problem?
<br /><br />
That's where things (not surprisingly) seemed to get bogged down.  Some suggested having to play the game the way it's done today -- setting up a SuperPAC, hiring lobbyists, and having "the future" represented in DC.  That idea didn't go over too well with the rest of the room, who felt that the power of networks might enable something different and something new.  I'd argue that it's even more than that.  Because of the power of the incumbency, there's simply no way that anyone could effectively represent "the future" long term from a traditional lobbyist role.  You'd always have some who could do it some of the time, but it wouldn't be sustainable -- either due to a lack of true funding to the level of the incumbents, or (worse) having the "representatives of the future" get "captured" by the incumbency.
<br /><br />
However, as the discussion danced around this question, something interesting happened.  Fred Wilson, from Union Square Ventures, suggested that Craigslist went against the traditional "capitalist" model of maximizing revenue.  And while Craig Newmark (in his usual fashion) wouldn't make a direct statement on this, I challenged the assumption -- as I did in writing <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20061218/010854.shtml">many years ago</a> -- noting that this claim ignores the function of <i>time</i>.  Those who think capitalism is about maximizing all revenue <i>at this second</i> are missing out on what it means to maximize revenue over time.  That is, if Craigslist raised rates on everything to maximize revenue in the short term, it would almost certainly lead to an untimely death in the long term.  That's because it would open up all sorts of opportunities for others to come in and undercut them and take away their business.  That gives them the ability to <i>keep customers happy</i> and keep making revenue (and lots of it) in the much longer term.  To me, that is true capitalism. 
<br /><br />
 Wall Street thinking is maximizing revenue today -- without consideration for how that impacts revenues over time.  That's not strategic and it's not smart.  Smart capitalism is recognizing the importance of the time function.  It means actually aligning your own best interests with the public's -- because if you don't it just opens up an opportunity for others to better serve the public.  So when people suggest (as they did) that companies like Craigslist and Kickstarter are not "maximizing revenue," I disagree completely.  They absolutely are, because they're providing so much consumer value, that they're able to continue to make a ton of money themselves, because the public <i>wants</i> to come back and <i>wants</i> to support them.  Not because they have no other choice.
<br /><br />
In effect, what companies like Kickstarter and Craigslist have shown is the way in which a more strategic player <i>avoids the trap of the incumbent</i>.  By <i>thinking</i> that they're not trying to maximize revenue, they actually do end up maximizing revenue, because they take more of a public-first mentality, which drives more business and more opportunity... in part because <b>so much of the value flows back to the public</b>.
<br /><br />
And therein lies the challenge of measurability.  There is all sorts of economic activity that isn't properly measured today.  When people look at Craigslist and say it's not maximizing revenue, that ignores the massive value that it has created, in part by <i>leaving money in the pockets of others</i> (who used to have to pay for similar services) while at the same time providing a tremendously useful service.  But, because it's not a direct transaction, it doesn't get "counted" in the traditional sense.   Tim O'Reilly really drove this point home in the discussion, talking about how we need to better measure that "hidden economy."  That is, we need to measure the true <i>value</i> of something <i>over time</i>, rather than the limited value of just the direct cash transactions.
<br /><br />
To some extent, this is a fault of economic linguistics.  We measure economic value in monetary value -- even when it doesn't involve money directly.  And, yet, because of this, we often forget that non-monetary transactions have tremendous costs, price and value as well.  Thus they get ignored.  Economics is supposed to be (in part) about that intersection of cost and benefit -- but a very, very large percentage of the economy is not about <em>monetary</em> costs and benefits, even if that's how it's often <i>measured</i>.
<br /><br />
The end result, then, is that we're not properly recognizing the benefits (or, indeed, the costs), because we're ignoring the vast majority of those in assuming that anything that doesn't involve monetary exchange has no benefit or cost.
<br /><br />
If one thing comes out of this discussion is that I think it's time we start looking for ways to change this.  I'd like to start.  We've already been doing some <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/skyisrising/">research</a> that hopefully highlights costs and benefits in ways that weren't clearly stated previously, but that was very narrowly focused.  I'm hoping that as we move forward, we might be able to start to construct new models and new research that really explores the true value of all the benefits and costs of such things.  If that, alone, can help companies recognize that the path of incumbency is actually not the best one for long term maximization of benefit, then perhaps we can get more companies to act like Craigslist or Kickstarter -- where even they don't think that they're maximizing revenue, because they choose not to seize the largest possible percentage of the pie today, knowing that by allowing much greater consumer surplus, they're actually expanding their own opportunity for tomorrow.
<br /><br />
There was a lot more discussed during the day (and into the evening over drinks and dinner), but this is the line of thinking that has me most interested, and it's an area that I hope to continue to explore -- with your help.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.techdirt.com/blog/innovation/articles/20120425/01215118644/hacking-society-its-time-to-measure-unmeasurable.shtml">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/blog/innovation/articles/20120425/01215118644/hacking-society-its-time-to-measure-unmeasurable.shtml#comments">Comments</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/blog/innovation/articles/20120425/01215118644/hacking-society-its-time-to-measure-unmeasurable.shtml?op=sharethis">Email This Story</a><br />
 ]]></description>
<slash:department>value-and-benefit</slash:department>
<wfw:commentRss>http://www.techdirt.com/comment_rss.php?sid=20120425/01215118644</wfw:commentRss>
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<pubDate>Fri, 6 Apr 2012 11:28:00 PDT</pubDate>
<title>Twitter's Lawsuits Against Spam Tool Providers Could Easily Backfire</title>
<dc:creator>Mike Masnick</dc:creator>
<link>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120405/16554018397/twitters-lawsuits-against-spam-tool-providers-could-easily-backfire.shtml</link>
<guid>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120405/16554018397/twitters-lawsuits-against-spam-tool-providers-could-easily-backfire.shtml</guid>
<description><![CDATA[ It's no secret that there's a fair bit of spam on Twitter -- which is annoying -- and it's nice to know that Twitter knows this is an issue that it needs to fight.  But I'm a bit concerned by the news that <a href="http://blog.twitter.com/2012/04/shutting-down-spammers.html" target="_blank">it's now suing spamming tool providers</a> as well as some spammers.  Going after the spammers directly for terms of service violations makes sense and they're fair game.  But going after tools providers?  That seems risky.  I'm reminded of a very similar situation from a few years ago, in which Craigslist <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20091008/2324416469.shtml">went after</a> spam tool providers as well.  Some of the <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110922/02372216046/craigslist-trying-to-destroy-life-someone-who-made-posting-to-craigslist-easier.shtml">details</a> there raised significant questions -- most specifically in Craigslist arguing that service providers could and should be liable for actions of their users.  That approach rejects the core concept behind protection from secondary liability -- something that's been quite important to tons of internet sites over the years, including Craigslist and Twitter.
<br /><br />
I recognize how tempting it is to go after the tools providers over spam.  But just as we don't blame Twitter or Craigslist for how users use (or abuse) their system, those companies shouldn't blame tools providers for the actions of their users either.  At the very least, I could see it coming back (in a big, bad way) to haunt Twitter, by giving opponents in lawsuits the ability to point to Twitter's own claims against these tool providers to suggest that it, too, should be liable for the actions of its users. From the details (embedded below), it appears that Twitter is arguing that all users breached the terms of service -- and it carefully notes that each of the software providers have registered accounts -- meaning they agreed to the terms at some point.  I understand <i>why</i> it's being argued this way, but I'm not sure it makes sense.  The terms apply to that account, not everything that someone with an account does outside of the account.  Twitter also claims that the spamware providers are involved in tortious interference with a contract as well as fraud and "unlaweful, unfair and fraudulent business practices" under California law.  
<br /><br />
To its credit, Twitter <b>does not</b> go as far as Craigslist did in its anti-spam lawsuits -- which actually tried to use copyright and trademark law, as well as claiming that violations of terms of service are a violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.  Thankfully, Twitter avoids going down those paths where those very specific laws might come back to haunt it -- and sticking with slightly more defensible claims.
<br /><br />
While I'm incredibly <i>sympathetic</i> towards Twitter's position here, and the goal of stomping out spammers, I still find it troubling in a few ways.  Twitter can and should (absolutely) look at ways to kill spammer accounts and to block spamming tools through technological means.  It's when things go legal that it could get tricky.  While my heart wants them to win -- I still fear that the arguments that the service provider itself is guilty because their tools are used for spamming floats a little too close to arguments about whether or not Twitter is responsible for how its users use Twitter.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120405/16554018397/twitters-lawsuits-against-spam-tool-providers-could-easily-backfire.shtml">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120405/16554018397/twitters-lawsuits-against-spam-tool-providers-could-easily-backfire.shtml#comments">Comments</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120405/16554018397/twitters-lawsuits-against-spam-tool-providers-could-easily-backfire.shtml?op=sharethis">Email This Story</a><br />
 ]]></description>
<slash:department>risky</slash:department>
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<pubDate>Thu, 5 Apr 2012 10:04:00 PDT</pubDate>
<title>NYTimes Columnist Stirs Up A Controversy That Will Only Drive Human Trafficking Further Underground</title>
<dc:creator>Mike Masnick</dc:creator>
<link>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120405/02403418381/nytimes-columnist-stirs-up-controversy-that-will-only-drive-human-trafficking-further-underground.shtml</link>
<guid>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120405/02403418381/nytimes-columnist-stirs-up-controversy-that-will-only-drive-human-trafficking-further-underground.shtml</guid>
<description><![CDATA[ You may recall a couple years ago that a bunch of politicians, led by state Attorneys General, went on a huge <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100825/16562610776.shtml">grandstanding campaign</a> against Craigslist, because some people were using Craigslist for prostitution -- including some human trafficking.  As we noted at the time (repeatedly), Craigslist was incredibly cooperative with law enforcement, and <i>smart</i> law enforcement officials actually <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100503/1100119284.shtml">used Craigslist</a> as a <i>tool</i> to help discover, track down and arrest those who were breaking the law.  But, rather than recognize that Craigslist was a useful tool, a huge media campaign was set off, leading Craigslist to <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100904/23124610907.shtml">shut down</a> its "adult services" section, despite plenty of legal uses.
<br /><br />
Of course, exactly as we predicted, the people who were previously using Craigslist for illegal reasons didn't magically disappear.  They just <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110207/23394213001/prostitutes-have-just-moved-craigslist-to-facebook.shtml">shifted</a> to other sites.  One popular one was <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100921/11573211096/state-ags-now-targeting-backpage-after-forcing-craigslist-to-stop-helping-them-pursue-lawbreakers.shtml">Backpage</a>, owned by Village Voice Media, publishers of the famed alternative newspaper <i>The Village Voice</i>.  Unlike Craigslist, Backpage told the grandstanders that <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100923/01014711126/backpage-tells-attorneys-general-that-they-won-t-give-in-to-censorship-demand.shtml">it wouldn't back down</a>.  It noted that it cooperates with law enforcement, and that it understands the law and why it's not liable for the actions of its users.  A lawsuit filed against the company resulted in <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110819/02211215597/as-expected-backpage-is-not-liable-prostitution-ads.shtml">Backpage being declared legal</a>.
<br /><br />
You would think, maybe, that the media and the granstanders would <i>get the message</i>.  But, no, they just keep at it.  Nicholas Kristoff at the NY Times recently posted a ridiculously silly column, which first "outs" Goldman Sachs as a minority investor in Village Voice Media (leading GS to sell all its shares before the article went to press, despite it having nothing to do with how the company operates), and then goes on to insist that <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/01/opinion/sunday/kristof-financers-and-sex-trafficking.html?_r=2&#038;hp" target="_blank">the owners of the site must be "held accountable."</a>
<br /><br />
This is, to put it plainly, stupid.  Kristof even acknowledges that the real way to stop human trafficking and underage prostitution is to have "prosecutors... focus more on pimps and johns."  You know <i>how</i> they can do that?  By <i>using sites like Backpage</i> to collect evidence and to find out who's actually responsible.  But, <i>immediately</i> after that, Kristof insists that:
<blockquote><i>
Closing down the leading Web site used by traffickers would complicate their lives, and after so many years of girls being trafficked on this site, it&#8217;s time to hold owners accountable.
</i></blockquote>
That's ridiculous.  Two years ago, we were told that the "leading website used by traffickers" was Craigslist.  And the same sort of idiotically short-sighted campaign closed down that part of the service, and it did <i>nothing</i> to complicate the traffickers lives, because they quickly moved on to a variety of other platforms, including some that <i>don't</i> cooperate nearly as closely with law enforcement as Craigslist did (and Backpage does today).  If Backpage is pressured into stopping adult ads, then the traffickers will move on to other sites within hours -- and many will be less willing to cooperate.  Blaming the service provider isn't just stupid and pointless, it's <i>counterproductive</i>.  It's helping the very people that the grandstanders claim to be targeting.
<br /><br />
It's really quite sickening.  The best way to stop these awful acts is to go after those responsible.  Adding some ridiculous (and probably unconstitutional) secondary liability to third parties doesn't help.  It makes the problem worse.  Kristof and others may have good intentions, but their simple (and confounding) inability to think more than a single step ahead is really disappointing.  In an effort to do good, they're causing a tremendous amount of harm.  Not only that, but they're advocating to set an awful precedent when it comes to secondary liability, taking away the basic principle that you don't blame the tool, you blame the person who actually is breaking the law.  Kristof is an award-winning journalist, and clearly a very smart person.  That he'd be so short-sighted on something like this -- and stoop to the level of trying to drag other companies through the mud -- is immensely disappointing.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120405/02403418381/nytimes-columnist-stirs-up-controversy-that-will-only-drive-human-trafficking-further-underground.shtml">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120405/02403418381/nytimes-columnist-stirs-up-controversy-that-will-only-drive-human-trafficking-further-underground.shtml#comments">Comments</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120405/02403418381/nytimes-columnist-stirs-up-controversy-that-will-only-drive-human-trafficking-further-underground.shtml?op=sharethis">Email This Story</a><br />
 ]]></description>
<slash:department>dangerous-ideas</slash:department>
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<pubDate>Wed, 5 Oct 2011 13:34:46 PDT</pubDate>
<title>Monster Cable Claims EBay, Craigslist, Costco &#038; Sears Are 'Rogue Sites'</title>
<dc:creator>Mike Masnick</dc:creator>
<link>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20111005/10082416208/monster-cable-claims-ebay-craigslist-costco-sears-are-rogue-sites.shtml</link>
<guid>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20111005/10082416208/monster-cable-claims-ebay-craigslist-costco-sears-are-rogue-sites.shtml</guid>
<description><![CDATA[ When we talk about how dangerous PROTECT IP is as a censorship bill, we're often told that we shouldn't worry so much, because it's only targeted at "rogue sites" and thus wouldn't impact any legitimate sites.  We're told there's nothing about rogue sites that is worth defending.  And yet, as we've seen with the <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110620/01370314750/universal-music-goes-to-war-against-popular-hip-hop-sites-blogs.shtml">list of "pirate" sites that GroupM</a> put together with help from the music and movie industries, their definition of a "pirate" site is expansive in the extreme.  It included the Internet Archive, Vimeo, Soundcloud and a ton of blogs and news sites, including the famed Vibe magazine.
<br /><br />
And don't think it gets any different when you hop over to the trademark/counterfeit side of the debate.  In Tim's post about Monster Cable <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20111005/08134716207/monster-cable-blames-rogue-sites-rather-than-its-own-business-practices-stealing-good-will.shtml">lobbying in favor of PROTECT IP</a>, as an aside at the end, he notes that on <a href="http://www.monstercable.com/counterfeit/dealers_blk.asp" target="_blank">Monster Cable's own list of "rogue sites,"</a> eBay and Craigslist top the list.  And it doesn't stop there.  Retailing giant Costco is on the list.  As is Sears.  Also some Backpages sites are listed as well (Backpages is a Craigslist-like classifieds system).  There's also FatWallet, which is one of the most popular "deal" listings sites out there.  There's also PriceGrabber and ComputerShopper -- popular legitimate sites for comparison shopping and computer purchases.  These are not "rogue sites."  These are legitimate companies that Monster Cable appears to have a vendetta against, because they allow for or promote the resale of perfectly legitimate secondhand goods.
<br /><br />
In other words, for all the misleading whining from Monster about how it needs PROTECT IP to stop "rogue sites," you can see from Monster's own definition of what it considers a rogue site, that it would like to use such things to stomp out legitimate secondhand sales.  Now, you can argue over whether or not these sites would pass following a judge's scrutiny under PROTECT IP, but we've seen judges <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20101221/00420012354/full-homeland-security-affidavit-to-seize-domains-riddled-with-technical-legal-errors.shtml">rubber stamp</a> similarly questionable claims against blogs in the past as being "rogue sites."
<br /><br />
If you look at both the GroupM and the Monster lists, one thing becomes clear: these companies are defining any site they can't <i>control</i> as being a "rogue site."  This isn't about stopping "piracy."  It's about using the law to stomp out channels that they can't control.   This is a key point that becomes obvious if you spend any time looking at the details of this law.  It's not about protecting "IP."  It's about protecting old business models that were based on absolute control of the channel.  The complaints of the Universal Musics and Monster Cables of the world isn't <i>really</i> about counterfeits and piracy, but about the fact that they no longer have absolute control.
<br /><br />
And they're just using "piracy" as the wool to pull over Congress' eyes to pass a law that tries to give them back control over the channel... by declaring tons of perfectly legitimate sites "rogue sites."<br /><br /><a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20111005/10082416208/monster-cable-claims-ebay-craigslist-costco-sears-are-rogue-sites.shtml">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20111005/10082416208/monster-cable-claims-ebay-craigslist-costco-sears-are-rogue-sites.shtml#comments">Comments</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20111005/10082416208/monster-cable-claims-ebay-craigslist-costco-sears-are-rogue-sites.shtml?op=sharethis">Email This Story</a><br />
 ]]></description>
<slash:department>total-failure</slash:department>
<wfw:commentRss>http://www.techdirt.com/comment_rss.php?sid=20111005/10082416208</wfw:commentRss>
</item>
<item>
<pubDate>Thu, 22 Sep 2011 12:45:00 PDT</pubDate>
<title>Craigslist Trying To Destroy The Life Of Someone Who Made Posting To Craigslist Easier</title>
<dc:creator>Mike Masnick</dc:creator>
<link>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110922/02372216046/craigslist-trying-to-destroy-life-someone-who-made-posting-to-craigslist-easier.shtml</link>
<guid>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110922/02372216046/craigslist-trying-to-destroy-life-someone-who-made-posting-to-craigslist-easier.shtml</guid>
<description><![CDATA[ Two years ago, we wrote about a lawsuit by Craigslist that we classified as <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20091008/2324416469.shtml">dumb</a>.  It was against a company called Red Trumpet who provided a service to make posting to Craigslist a bit easier.  Craigslist's obvious reason for filing the lawsuit was that it was upset about the <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20080523/0327151211.shtml">increasing amount of spam</a> on the site, some of which uses such tools.  We understand and appreciate Craigslists' efforts to keep spam off the site, but attacking third party software and service providers on questionable theories is fraught with dangers... especially for Craigslist.
<br /><br />
After all, this is the exact same Craigslist who keeps getting <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110224/14483113249/craigslist-cesspool-crime-are-bad-reporters-cesspool-repeating-dubious-research.shtml">accused</a> of being liable for prostitution ads on its site.  And for years, Craigslist has correctly responded that it is not legally responsible for the actions of their users -- a position we support and agree with.  Thus, it seems strange and dangerous for Craigslist to then make <b>the exact opposite argument</b> back at other service providers.  It's the kind of thing that's going to come up in a court case sooner or later.
<br /><br />
That was the biggest problem with the lawsuit, but there were three other problems with it, including what seemed like extremely questionable uses of copyright law, trademark law and the ever-popular anti-hacking law, the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.  Here's what we wrote about all three at the time of the Red Trumpet lawsuit:
<blockquote><i>
Craigslist is making a really weak DMCA claim here.  It's claiming that its various anti-spam technologies (captchas, phone verification, etc.) act as "technological protection measures" that Red Trumpet is circumventing... and thus running afoul of the DMCA's anti-circumvention rules.  But the circumvention has nothing to do with violating Craigslist's "copyright," though the lawsuit makes a half-hearted attempt to claim that it does.
<br /><br />
Then, there's the trademark claims.  There are a few different ones, but it argues that Red Trumpet is violating Craigslist's trademark by mentioning Craigslist on its website and in its ads.  While again, you can see why this is <b>annoying</b> to Craigslist, if the company is accurately describing services it provides (the ability to post on Craigslist) it's difficult to see the "confusion" being caused.  The ad in question doesn't appear to imply any endorsement at all by Craigslist.  And, does Craigslist really want to open up a can of worms concerning trademarks being used in ads?  After all, there must be a ton of posts on Craigslist that mention trademarks.
<br /><br />
Finally, there's Craigslist claiming that Red Trumpet violates the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act by accessing its site despite violating its terms of use.  Does this sound familiar?  It's the same argument that was used to try to punish Lori Drew, and was recently <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090831/0359146055.shtml">tossed out</a> by a judge.  Basically, it's claiming that if you happen to violate the terms of use of a site, and then still access the site, you've effectively "hacked" into the site.  This is a really bad reading of the law, which is why it was good that the Drew ruling got tossed out.  So why is Craigslist trying to re-establish that as a rule?
</i></blockquote>
I hadn't followed the case very closely after that, but it looks like the company eventually <a href="http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/california/candce/3:2009cv04743/220185/15/" target="_blank">settled</a> with Craigslist.  
<br /><br />
What I hadn't realized was that Craigslist had actually filed a bunch of similar, equally questionable, lawsuits against others.  One of those others is a guy named Paul Hubert, who wrote some software that made it easier to manage your Craigslist postings.  We've been in touch with Mr. Hubert... who did not find out that he was being sued at all, until months after the court <a href="http://dockets.justia.com/docket/illinois/ilndce/1:2011cv02377/254378/" target="_blank">already ruled in a default judgment against him</a>.  Default judgments happen when someone doesn't respond, but if you're never informed of the lawsuit, it's pretty difficult to respond at all.  Hubert insists that he was never served, and the first he heard of the lawsuit was a couple months after the default judgment (for over $1.2 million) when someone tried to collect it from him.
<br /><br />
Hubert makes it clear that his software was designed for legitimate uses of Craigslist, for those who needed better management tools.  In fact, he makes it clear that he left out and/or disabled certain features if he realized they might be attractive to spammers.  For example, after noticing that the Craigslist Personals section was hit with a lot of spam, and realizing that such a category probably wouldn't need such a management system, he blocked the software from posting to that category.  Hubert claims that in 2007 Craig Newmark himself reached out to Hubert to ask for some details about the software.  Hubert says that the emails were "encouraging" and never once did Newmark suggest any concerns or problems with the software, let alone ask Hubert to stop offering it.  Hubert also notes that after running into more issues with spammers trying to use his software, he shut down the whole thing at the end of 2008.
<br /><br />
Hubert, who is unemployed, is reasonably perplexed and upset about the whole thing.  He never knew about the lawsuit, was never asked to stop offering his software (which he did anyway), and is now being told he has to pay $1.2 million which he doesn't have.  He claims that the lawyer trying to collect the money has told him that Craigslist wants to "make an example" of him.
<br /><br />
I'm greatly troubled by Craigslist's actions here.  Having dealt with Craig and Jim Buckmaster a few times in the past, I reached out to them about this, and asked for any comment.  It's been a couple days and no response has been forthcoming from either.  From the profile page of lawyer <a href="http://www.perkinscoie.com/bhennessy/" target="_blank">Brian Hennessy</a>, who appears to have represented Craigslist in both of the cases discussed here, it appears that Craigslist actually has filed a lot of other, similar cases.
<br /><br />
I have to say that I'm pretty disappointed that Craigslist would do this.  The company has usually represented a lot of the good of Silicon Valley, and to use questionable legal theories to attack various companies -- especially theories that are likely to come back to haunt Craigslist itself -- is just a bad idea.  To then take it further and go after this guy who was never served and never even asked to stop -- and then pressing him for $1.2 million he doesn't have -- just feels downright shameful.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110922/02372216046/craigslist-trying-to-destroy-life-someone-who-made-posting-to-craigslist-easier.shtml">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110922/02372216046/craigslist-trying-to-destroy-life-someone-who-made-posting-to-craigslist-easier.shtml#comments">Comments</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110922/02372216046/craigslist-trying-to-destroy-life-someone-who-made-posting-to-craigslist-easier.shtml?op=sharethis">Email This Story</a><br />
 ]]></description>
<slash:department>and-harming-their-own-defense-at-the-same-time</slash:department>
<wfw:commentRss>http://www.techdirt.com/comment_rss.php?sid=20110922/02372216046</wfw:commentRss>
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<pubDate>Wed, 7 Sep 2011 15:26:00 PDT</pubDate>
<title>Craigslist Continues To Be A Legal Bully When It Comes To Aggregators</title>
<dc:creator>Mike Masnick</dc:creator>
<link>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110906/03432815809/craigslist-continues-to-be-legal-bully-when-it-comes-to-aggregators.shtml</link>
<guid>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110906/03432815809/craigslist-continues-to-be-legal-bully-when-it-comes-to-aggregators.shtml</guid>
<description><![CDATA[ For the most part, the geek community seems to like Craigslist -- and for good reason.  The company is a model of how to build up a massively successful company without "being evil."  Most of the postings on the site still remain free, with a few exceptions -- and in the cases of those exceptions, it seems to almost always make sense to charge there.   The company always seems focused on providing a good service to its community and generally supporting that community.  The company also has made a name for itself by keeping marketers out, and focusing on engineering.  On top of that, having dealt with folks there, they always seem pretty straightforward and genuine.  I will admit my "bias" upfront here: I like Craigslist.
<br /><br />
But the one thing that the company has done for years that still really strikes me as odd is how they lawyer up and go after others aggressively at times.  There are a few areas where they do this, but the least defensible to me is when they go after sites that aggregate their listings and point people back to them.  We first noted this <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20050628/0225236_F.shtml">more than six years ago</a>, when Craigslist threatened a site for creating a universal search.  Craigslist, itself, only let you search within a certain location, rather than globally.  And because someone else did it, Craigslist pressured them to shut it down.  It looks like that's still happening.
<br /><br />
<a href="http://www.techdirt.com/profile.php?u=timlash">timlash</a> points us to the news that the site Jaxed <a href="http://www.jaxed.com/cgi-bin/show.cgi?idx=20110826202627" target="_blank">recently received a cease &#038; desist</a> and shut down its links to Craigslist's listings.  The C&#038;D apparently claimed that listing Craigslist results in its aggregated search results was a "misuse" of Craigslist, but I don't quite see how.  I know that Craigslist hates anyone scraping their site, and claims that it uses up bandwidth and resources, but there are technical means to block such things, rather than breaking out the lawyers with dubious theories about how linking to a site is misuse of that site...<br /><br /><a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110906/03432815809/craigslist-continues-to-be-legal-bully-when-it-comes-to-aggregators.shtml">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110906/03432815809/craigslist-continues-to-be-legal-bully-when-it-comes-to-aggregators.shtml#comments">Comments</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110906/03432815809/craigslist-continues-to-be-legal-bully-when-it-comes-to-aggregators.shtml?op=sharethis">Email This Story</a><br />
 ]]></description>
<slash:department>disappointing</slash:department>
<wfw:commentRss>http://www.techdirt.com/comment_rss.php?sid=20110906/03432815809</wfw:commentRss>
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<pubDate>Mon, 21 Mar 2011 11:37:00 PDT</pubDate>
<title>Some Free Letter-Writing Advice For America's Toughest Sheriff</title>
<dc:creator>Marcus Carab</dc:creator>
<link>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110318/12091713547/some-free-letter-writing-advice-americas-toughest-sheriff.shtml</link>
<guid>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110318/12091713547/some-free-letter-writing-advice-americas-toughest-sheriff.shtml</guid>
<description><![CDATA[ <p>Everyone, no matter how great they might think they are, can benefit from the services of a good editor, especially when they are writing an important document. Say, for example, you were self-proclaimed <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Americas-Toughest-Sheriff-Joe-Arpaio/dp/B000BT96O6" target="_blank">"America's Toughest Sheriff"</a> and everybody-else-proclaimed <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio#Controversies" target="_blank">"Kind Of A Dick"</a> Joe Arpaio (sheriff for Maricopa County, Arizona), and you had just used Craigslist to catch and arrest <a href="http://technolog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/03/18/6293759-sheriff-scolds-craigslist-for-its-part-in-man-seeking-animal-sex" target="_blank">two literal dogfuckers</a> before they could get down to their despicable business (thanks to <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/profile.php?u=bigkeitho">BigKeithO</a> for sending this in). Naturally you would be <b>appreciative</b> of Craigslist for helping you find these people and prevent any pooch-porking, so you might decide to write CEO Jim Buckmaster a nice <i>thank you</i> letter. Unfortunately, without proper editing, that letter might instead accidentally convey the ridiculous notion that you are actually <i>angry</i> at Craigslist for being so useful, and that you believe it contributes to the problem of bestiality. It might even come close to suggesting that you would rather these mutt-divers keep talking about bending Rover over but do it behind closed doors&mdash;and that would be downright insane.</p>
<p>Such a letter, it seems, <a href="http://www.mcso.org/include/pr_pdf/CRAIGS_LIST.pdf" target="_blank">has just been written [pdf]</a>. For the public good, I am providing my editing services free of charge to Sheriff Arpaio, in order to clarify what I assume was his <i>intended</i> point, since shaming Craigslist for helping you get doggy-diddlers off the street is obviously nonsensical. Sheriff Arpaio's complete letter follows, with my recommended edits marked in bold or strikethrough.</p><p>
<blockquote><em>
Dear Mr. Buckmaster:
<br /><br />
Maricopa County Sheriff's Office detectives conducted an undercover investigation that spanned several months during 2010 and 2011. This investigation resulted in the arrest of two individuals for conspiracy to commit bestiality. There is an ongoing investigation of several others. Craigslist provided the forum for these individuals to post, in a very blatant manner, their intentions. We are able to locate and communicate with these suspects using Craigslist. <strong>Thank you.</strong>
<br /><br />
During the course of the investigation numerous other posts were discovered in the Personals sections of "men seeking men" and "casual encounters". These posts included specific description of criminal acts. They were often accompanied by graphic photographs of a fully nude male in various pornographic situations. <strong>This constitutes excellent evidence for the State. Again, thank you.</strong>
<br /><br />
It is clear that the "self-policing" protocol Craigslist relies upon to prevent this activity is inadequate, <strong>but its mere existence is already going above and beyond your legal duty</strong>. <del>While</del> <strong>Not only is</strong> Craigslist <del>may</del> not <del>be</del> committing a criminal act, you are undoubtedly providing a mechanism to facilitate <del>obvious criminal activity</del> <strong>our law enforcement efforts</strong>. <del>Simply</del> <strong>The fact that you continue</strong>  posting your "Terms of Use" <strong>and</strong> providing a mechanism for posters to do <del>Y</del>OUR job, <del>and claiming that</del> <strong>even though</strong> Craigslist is <strong>legally </strong> "not responsible for the content" is thoroughly <del>disappointing</del> <strong>impressive</strong>.
<br /><br />
As the Sheriff of one of the largest law enforcement agencies in the nation, I<strong>, not you,</strong> am responsible for <del>the conduct of my entire organization</del> <strong>enforcing the law</strong>. In this regard, I strongly encourage Craigslist and you, specifically, Mr. Buckmaster, to accept <del>greater responsibility for your organization</del> <strong>my personal thanks for helping us get two perverts off the streets</strong>.
<br /><br />
<del>I ask that you re-evaluate the security measures that you utilize to prevent this type of activity and take the necessary action to improve your procedure.</del> <strong>Now if you'll excuse me, I have some <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio#Pink_underwear
" target="_blank">pink underwear</a> to sell.</strong>
<br /><br />
Sincerely,<br />
Joseph M. Arpaio<br />
Sheriff</em></blockquote></p><br /><br /><a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110318/12091713547/some-free-letter-writing-advice-americas-toughest-sheriff.shtml">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110318/12091713547/some-free-letter-writing-advice-americas-toughest-sheriff.shtml#comments">Comments</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110318/12091713547/some-free-letter-writing-advice-americas-toughest-sheriff.shtml?op=sharethis">Email This Story</a><br />
 ]]></description>
<slash:department>there,-fixed-that-for-you</slash:department>
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<item>
<pubDate>Fri, 25 Feb 2011 07:25:00 PST</pubDate>
<title>Craigslist A 'Cesspool Of Crime'? Or Are Bad Reporters A Cesspool Of Repeating Dubious Research?</title>
<dc:creator>Mike Masnick</dc:creator>
<link>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110224/14483113249/craigslist-cesspool-crime-are-bad-reporters-cesspool-repeating-dubious-research.shtml</link>
<guid>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110224/14483113249/craigslist-cesspool-crime-are-bad-reporters-cesspool-repeating-dubious-research.shtml</guid>
<description><![CDATA[ <a href="http://tech.slashdot.org/story/11/02/24/2112208/Study-Calls-Craigslist-a-Cesspool-of-Crime?from=twitter" target="_blank">Slashdot</a> points us to an article at the "International Business Times," that reports on a study from the AIM Group which claims that <a href="http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/115849/20110224/craigslist-anonymous-classifieds-facebook-crime-society-social-network.htm#ixzz1EuesJdzH" target="_blank">Craigslist is 'a cesspool of crime.'</a>  Interesting claim.  What seems to be totally missing from the IBTimes report is the fact that AIM Group works for Craigslist competitors and, in this case, the "research" was funded by Craigslist wannabe-Oodle.  That's not mentioned in the IBTimes report at all.  In fact, the only mention of Oodle in the article is a quote by the CEO of Oodle mocking Craigslis and playing up Oodle... but never mentioning that he paid for the research in question.
<br /><br />
As for the actual "research," it seems laughable, at best, and should immediately raise questions about any AIM Group research.  The "research" basically scoured news reports and found a grand total of 330 "crimes" in the past year that have some sort of loose connection to Craigslist.  I have a hard time seeing how that makes it a "cesspool" of crime.  That's a very small number, especially considering the hundreds of millions of posts and transactions that take place via Craigslist.  This seems like a massive cheap shot by both Oodle and AIM Group, and it's sad that a reporter would repeat the claims without noting the obvious problems with it.  That's not journalism.  That's being a PR service.
<br /><br />
Meanwhile, looking at the "details" from AIM Group make the results even less compelling.  They play up that 12 murders had a loose connection to Craigslist, but a bunch of those appear to be from one deranged individual.  It seems pretty ridiculous to blame Craigslist for that.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110224/14483113249/craigslist-cesspool-crime-are-bad-reporters-cesspool-repeating-dubious-research.shtml">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110224/14483113249/craigslist-cesspool-crime-are-bad-reporters-cesspool-repeating-dubious-research.shtml#comments">Comments</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110224/14483113249/craigslist-cesspool-crime-are-bad-reporters-cesspool-repeating-dubious-research.shtml?op=sharethis">Email This Story</a><br />
 ]]></description>
<slash:department>i'll-take-the-latter,-jim</slash:department>
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<pubDate>Wed, 9 Feb 2011 10:02:07 PST</pubDate>
<title>Prostitutes Have Just Moved From Craigslist To Facebook</title>
<dc:creator>Mike Masnick</dc:creator>
<link>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110207/23394213001/prostitutes-have-just-moved-craigslist-to-facebook.shtml</link>
<guid>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110207/23394213001/prostitutes-have-just-moved-craigslist-to-facebook.shtml</guid>
<description><![CDATA[ When Craigslist -- under a peer pressure campaign from <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100825/16562610776.shtml">grandstanding</a> state attorneys general and some <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100906/22301010917.shtml">misguided</a> activists groups -- <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100904/23124610907.shtml">shut down</a> its adult services section, it wasn't difficult to predict that this would do little to nothing to actually slow down or prevent prostitution.  Instead, it would just drive those activities to other sites, and those sites might not work quite as closely with law enforcement as Craigslist did.  In fact, we noted that Craigslist was a <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100503/1100119284.shtml">very useful tool</a> for law enforcement to actually track down and crack prostitution rings.
<br /><br />
Anyway, as expected, it appears that the activity hasn't gone away, it's just moved elsewhere.  News.com highlights how it appears that <a href="http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-20030954-71.html?part=rss&#038;subj=news&#038;tag=2547-1_3-0-20" target="_blank">Facebook has become the site of choice for prostitutes</a>, picking up on a small bit of some <a href="http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/01/ff_sextrade/all/1" target="_blank">new research on prostitution</a> by Sudhir Venkatesh.  The report suggested that Facebook had already been growing as a tool for prostitutes, but the exodus from Craigslist may have just sped that whole process up a bit.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110207/23394213001/prostitutes-have-just-moved-craigslist-to-facebook.shtml">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110207/23394213001/prostitutes-have-just-moved-craigslist-to-facebook.shtml#comments">Comments</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110207/23394213001/prostitutes-have-just-moved-craigslist-to-facebook.shtml?op=sharethis">Email This Story</a><br />
 ]]></description>
<slash:department>big-help</slash:department>
<wfw:commentRss>http://www.techdirt.com/comment_rss.php?sid=20110207/23394213001</wfw:commentRss>
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<pubDate>Mon, 22 Nov 2010 11:30:50 PST</pubDate>
<title>Guy Sues Wikipedia &#038; Craigslist For $1 Billion Because (He Claims) He Found Nudity On Both</title>
<dc:creator>Mike Masnick</dc:creator>
<link>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20101121/22064111957/guy-sues-wikipedia-craigslist-1-billion-because-he-claims-he-found-nudity-both.shtml</link>
<guid>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20101121/22064111957/guy-sues-wikipedia-craigslist-1-billion-because-he-claims-he-found-nudity-both.shtml</guid>
<description><![CDATA[ Admittedly, most pro se lawsuits (filed by an individual, without a lawyer) are complete junk -- and on any given day you can find some really silly lawsuits.  But sometimes they're worth highlighting anyway, just for how amusing they can be.  <a href="http://blog.ericgoldman.org/" target="_blank">Eric Goldman</a> alerts us to the following lawsuit, filed by one Russell Dan Smith, arguing that <a href="http://www.docstoc.com/docs/63034160/smith-v-wikimedia" target="_blank">both Craigslist and Wikipedia should be barred from being available in the state of South Carolina</a>, and that each should be forced to pay $500 million, with half going to the state of South Carolina (might help with the budget) and half going to Russell Dan Smith (might help with the monthly payments he has to make on his $10,000 Puma camper).
<br /><br />
What, you might ask, should force both sites to be blocked in the great state of South Carolina, as well pay up a billion dollars, combined?  According to Mr. Smith, both sites "have been and still do openly promote child prostitution and the distribution of child pornography."  Also, "both defendants also promote adult prostitution and nudity designed to excite prurient interests in the people viewing it."  How does Mr. Smith know this?  Because, he notes, he discovered such things on both sites, but "not intentionally."  You see, "the pictures came to him by way of his surfing defendants' websites for valid non-pornographic purposes."  You see, "plaintiff does not and does not want to view such nudity as heretofore described."  Understood, of course.  And "for allowing such nudity of children and adults to be seen by those who do not want to see it, both defendants are liable of attempting to lure other persons to share in this crime."
<br /><br />
Mr. Smith also highlights the fact that <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090520/1013534950.shtml">Craigslist sued</a> South Carolian Attorney General Henry McMaster -- a lawsuit that was <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100912/22591710977.shtml">tossed out</a>, but is being appealed.  He claims that "there is a probability shown by the preponderance of the evidence that defendant Craigslist was a criminal organization suing the Attorney General of the State of South Carolina for no other reason than that the State had been investigating the organization and intended therefore to paralyze by fear of further action."  Of course, as covered in detail at the time, McMaster had been <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090506/0156594762.shtml">threatening</a> to put Craigslist execs in jail, for actions of its users -- actions clearly protected under Section 230 of the CDA, which other courts have highlighted.  Craigslist's offensive lawsuit was not to "sue McMaster," so much as to get a declaratory judgment that it had done nothing wrong, so as to stop McMaster from continued grandstanding.
<br /><br />
As one final point, it does seem worth pointing out that, on the documents filed, there is a note reading that "frivolous civil proceedings may be subject to sanctions...." Seems worth pointing out...<br /><br /><a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20101121/22064111957/guy-sues-wikipedia-craigslist-1-billion-because-he-claims-he-found-nudity-both.shtml">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20101121/22064111957/guy-sues-wikipedia-craigslist-1-billion-because-he-claims-he-found-nudity-both.shtml#comments">Comments</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20101121/22064111957/guy-sues-wikipedia-craigslist-1-billion-because-he-claims-he-found-nudity-both.shtml?op=sharethis">Email This Story</a><br />
 ]]></description>
<slash:department>pro-se-me</slash:department>
<wfw:commentRss>http://www.techdirt.com/comment_rss.php?sid=20101121/22064111957</wfw:commentRss>
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<pubDate>Mon, 8 Nov 2010 06:43:44 PST</pubDate>
<title>Canada Continues To Grandstand Over Craigslist Adult Services</title>
<dc:creator>Mike Masnick</dc:creator>
<link>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20101104/02365011716/canada-continues-to-grandstand-over-craigslist-adult-services.shtml</link>
<guid>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20101104/02365011716/canada-continues-to-grandstand-over-craigslist-adult-services.shtml</guid>
<description><![CDATA[ Last month, we noted that some Canadian politicians were jumping on the <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20101012/18061411402/canadian-politicians-jump-on-the-censor-craigslist-bandwagon.shtml">censor Craigslist bandwagon</a>, though some pointed out in our comments that the politicians in question actually had little influence.  However, it looks like those who actually are in power are jumping onto the same grandstanding train.  Canada's Justice Minister, Rob Nicholson, has now <a href="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/justice-minister-presses-craigslist-to-remove-erotic-services-ads/article1784339/?cmpid=rss1&#038;utm_source=feedburner&#038;utm_medium=feed&#038;utm_campaign=Feed%3A TheGlobeAndMail-National %28The Globe and Mail - National News%29" target="_blank">demanded that Craigslist censor its adult services section</a> -- and he does so with statements that are blatantly intellectually dishonest:
<blockquote><i>
"With respect to newspapers, there are editors, I am sure, who take precautions to make sure they&rsquo;re not getting into the business of child exploitation or human trafficking and so on" in their classified ads, Mr. Nicholson said after the Conservative caucus meeting on Wednesday. "It seems to me with Craigslist there's no regulation at all as to what goes on."
</i></blockquote>
Except, most of that is inaccurate or misleading.  Newspapers work on an entirely different scale and different model than Craigslist, which just acts more as a platform.  Second, there is quite a bit of "regulation," it's just that this doesn't sound good, so Nicholson apparently decides to ignore it.  Nicholson also claims he's going to introduce new legislation "that would create two new offences under the Criminal Code to close loopholes in Canada's laws against child pornography."  If he's complaining about Craigslist and talking about loopholes, that sounds like that new legislation may create secondary liability for platform providers.  Hopefully someone can explain to Nicholson the ridiculous unintended consequences of such secondary liability, which would create massive liability for an awful lot of the internet.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20101104/02365011716/canada-continues-to-grandstand-over-craigslist-adult-services.shtml">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20101104/02365011716/canada-continues-to-grandstand-over-craigslist-adult-services.shtml#comments">Comments</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20101104/02365011716/canada-continues-to-grandstand-over-craigslist-adult-services.shtml?op=sharethis">Email This Story</a><br />
 ]]></description>
<slash:department>grandstanding</slash:department>
<wfw:commentRss>http://www.techdirt.com/comment_rss.php?sid=20101104/02365011716</wfw:commentRss>
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<pubDate>Wed, 13 Oct 2010 01:23:52 PDT</pubDate>
<title>Canadian Politicians Jump On The 'Censor Craigslist' Bandwagon</title>
<dc:creator>Mike Masnick</dc:creator>
<link>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20101012/18061411402/canadian-politicians-jump-on-the-censor-craigslist-bandwagon.shtml</link>
<guid>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20101012/18061411402/canadian-politicians-jump-on-the-censor-craigslist-bandwagon.shtml</guid>
<description><![CDATA[ Thought we were done with the silly <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100915/15125911029.shtml">political grandstanding</a> against Craigslist, which won't stop child trafficking, but will actually <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100906/22301010917.shtml">help the scumbags</a> who are involved in the practice?  No such luck.  Apparently politicians in other countries have seen how politically successful such grandstanding is, and are using the same tactics against Craigslist.  Some Ontario politicians are now <a href="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ontario/ontario-asks-craigslist-to-stop-adult-ads-online/article1753689/?cmpid=rss1&#038;utm_source=feedburner&#038;utm_medium=feed&#038;utm_campaign=Feed%3A TheGlobeAndMail-National %28The Globe and Mail - National News%29" target="_blank">demanding that Craigslist takedown its adult section in Canada</a> (Craigslist only self-censored the section in the US).  Of course, as in the US, this won't help law enforcement stop prostitution and child trafficking.  It will only serve to drive it further underground and make it harder to track and stop.  But I'm sure it makes for good-looking headlines, even if it makes the problem worse.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20101012/18061411402/canadian-politicians-jump-on-the-censor-craigslist-bandwagon.shtml">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20101012/18061411402/canadian-politicians-jump-on-the-censor-craigslist-bandwagon.shtml#comments">Comments</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20101012/18061411402/canadian-politicians-jump-on-the-censor-craigslist-bandwagon.shtml?op=sharethis">Email This Story</a><br />
 ]]></description>
<slash:department>if-it-worked-south-of-the-border...</slash:department>
<wfw:commentRss>http://www.techdirt.com/comment_rss.php?sid=20101012/18061411402</wfw:commentRss>
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<pubDate>Tue, 21 Sep 2010 13:42:00 PDT</pubDate>
<title>State AGs Now Targeting Backpage After Forcing Craigslist To Stop Helping Them Pursue Lawbreakers</title>
<dc:creator>Mike Masnick</dc:creator>
<link>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100921/11573211096/state-ags-now-targeting-backpage-after-forcing-craigslist-to-stop-helping-them-pursue-lawbreakers.shtml</link>
<guid>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100921/11573211096/state-ags-now-targeting-backpage-after-forcing-craigslist-to-stop-helping-them-pursue-lawbreakers.shtml</guid>
<description><![CDATA[ We've already explain how the <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100915/15125911029.shtml">political grandstanding campaign</a> against Craigslist, that got the company to shut down its "adult services" section based on no legal reason, does plenty to <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100906/22301010917.shtml">harm</a> the people the various state attorneys general think they're "helping."  Craigslist has been highly active in working with police to use the site to find and <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100503/1100119284.shtml">arrest</a> those actually responsible for dangerous exploitation of children.  But by shutting off that tool, the ads simply migrate to sites that are more underground and less willing to work with law enforcement.  Apparently, though, the AGs are stuck on the political headlines, and don't care at all for anyone's actual safety.
<br><br>
So they've moved on to their next target: 21 state attorneys general have <a href="http://www.ksdk.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=217660&catid=3" target="_blank">kicked off a grandstanding campaign against Backpage</a>, the online classifieds arm of Village Voice Media (the same company that was just <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100919/02104911071/former-child-prostitute-sues-village-voice-for-aiding-abetting-via-sex-ads.shtml">sued</a> over the same issue).  Once again, Backpage is one of the companies that has worked closely with law enforcement -- and the AGs even admit that in their announcement demanding the company shut down the tool.
<br><Br>
This is incredibly dumb and frustrating.  In the pursuit of headlines falsely claiming that they're "protecting" children, these AGs are only serving to attack the companies who help them track down those <b>actually responsible</b> for child exploitation and child prostitution.  All they're doing is making the problem worse.  Those who are exploiting these kids in the worst possible way won't stop doing it -- they'll just use other means to do so, in a way that's harder for police to track them down and to capture them.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100921/11573211096/state-ags-now-targeting-backpage-after-forcing-craigslist-to-stop-helping-them-pursue-lawbreakers.shtml">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100921/11573211096/state-ags-now-targeting-backpage-after-forcing-craigslist-to-stop-helping-them-pursue-lawbreakers.shtml#comments">Comments</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100921/11573211096/state-ags-now-targeting-backpage-after-forcing-craigslist-to-stop-helping-them-pursue-lawbreakers.shtml?op=sharethis">Email This Story</a><br />
 ]]></description>
<slash:department>how-backwards-can-you-get?</slash:department>
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<pubDate>Wed, 15 Sep 2010 15:50:48 PDT</pubDate>
<title>Sad: Why Haven't Other Internet Companies Stood Up For Craigslist Against AGs?</title>
<dc:creator>Mike Masnick</dc:creator>
<link>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100915/15125911029.shtml</link>
<guid>http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100915/15125911029.shtml</guid>
<description><![CDATA[ For quite some time now, we've been covering how various state attorneys general have been publicly grandstanding and threatening Craigslist, despite no actual legal basis.  That grandstanding, of course, has "worked."  It's resulted in Craigslist settling twice, and now shutting down the adult services section, leading those ads to migrate elsewhere actually <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100906/22301010917.shtml">helping</a> those responsible, and making it <i>harder</i> for law enforcement to do its job.  In testimony to Congress, Craigslist is pointing out that many of those other sites are <a href="http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/118995-craigslist-breaks-its-silence-on-sex-trafficking-noting-white-house-meeting" target="_blank">not nearly as willing</a> to help law enforcement.
<br /><br />
But there's another issue here.  As Ryan Singel points out, this grandstanding campaign <a href="http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2010/09/craigslist-open-internet/all/1" target="_blank">is really an attack on the rather important Section 230 safe harbors for online service providers</a>.  Richard Blumenthal, who has led the attack, despite a <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100908/18062710949.shtml">lack of jurisdiction or legal basis</a> is currently running for Senate, and apparently is interested in changing Section 230.  Singel asked Blumenthal first under what legal theory Craigslist was liable, and got back vague claims of how its failure to enforce its terms of service violated Connecticut consumer protection laws -- an incredibly weak claim unlikely to stand up to any scrutiny.  But, more seriously, Singel asked about Section 230, and Blumenthal said the law "is outdated and needs revision."
<blockquote><i>
"I support changes clarifying and strengthening the law to hold websites accountable when they knowingly enable or promote illegal activity."
</i></blockquote>
Beware that "enable."  Blumenthal wants to expand massive liability to internet services in a manner that would kill off significant innovation.  Could you enable illegal activity via Google, Facebook, Twitter, Skype or many other popular internet services?  You bet.  Section 230 is designed to make sure the liability actually went to those responsible, not to the service providers and tools they used.  Changing that is incredibly dangerous for innovation.
<br /><br />
And, yet, as Single points out, these other companies haven't stepped up to support Craigslist in the grandstanding against them.  Of course, the PR reasons are clear: no one wants to be in a position where critics could twist their words and misleadingly and falsely claim they "support" exploitation.  But this is a big deal and in keeping quiet, bad things may happen:
<blockquote><i>
The logical extension of what Blumenthal &#038; Co say they want is a world where even they couldn't use Facebook, Twitter and Flickr to connect with their constituents, for fear that one of them (or their political enemies) would plant incriminating material they could then be sued over.
<br /><br />
And even if they were successful, and didn't care about that consequences, would ads for prostitution disappear from the face of the earth? Not likely. The same ads that Craigslist is pilloried for dominate the back pages of alternative weeklies. The printed Yellow Pages carries ads for "Escort Services." You can find them in the Village Voice-owned Backpages.com. And beyond the media world, it's not very hard to find "Massage" parlors in any major U.S. city, where I'd venture to guess, you are more likely to find human-trafficking than you were anywhere on Craigslist. And back in the relative shadows from whence they came would only exploiters of women and children would only have more power.
<br /><br />
The collateral damage of a wrong-headed pursuit Craigslist is an assault on the open internet itself.
</i></blockquote>
Singel also points out, as we have in <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100426/1609299179.shtml">the past</a>, that the key point of grandstanding these days is on the revenue Craigslist made from these ads -- something that only started when these very same AGs forced Craigslist to start charging for the ads as part of an earlier settlement.
<br /><br />
Singel wants to know why other internet companies aren't speaking up.  Because the end result of letting Craigslist hang on its own on this topic is going to come back to haunt them.  Already, in the same Congressional hearings today where Craigslist was attacked, those who pushed this damaging situation on the company are sharpening their knives <a href="http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2010/09/adult-services-shutdown-is-permanent-craigslist-tells-congress/" target="_blank">for other internet companies</a>:
<blockquote><i>
"Every pimp has a MySpace page," Frundt testified, adding that ads also show up on Backpages.com. "Every john uses a john board and posts information on where to buy children."
<br /><br />
"This has been going on for many years. We must do something about our children being sold on the internet."
</i></blockquote> 
Indeed!  We absolutely must do something -- but the something we should do is use these tools to <i>go after and stop those actually responsible</i> rather than pushing them around the internet, and blaming the tools they use.  That doesn't stop the activity.  It doesn't protect the exploited.  It doesn't help the situation.  It creates a false target, and a situation in which the very principles on which the internet has been built get undermined, at a potentially huge cost to innovation, communication and free speech.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100915/15125911029.shtml">Permalink</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100915/15125911029.shtml#comments">Comments</a> | <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100915/15125911029.shtml?op=sharethis">Email This Story</a><br />
 ]]></description>
<slash:department>take-a-stand</slash:department>
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