First French File-Sharer Sentenced To Disconnection Under Hadopi; But Judgment May Be Unenforceable

from the talk-about-waste-of-time dept

As we've noted before, Hadopi has been a colossal failure on just about every metric, and now seems on the way out. But French taxpayers' money is still being wasted on the scheme, which continues to send out huge numbers of warnings. Ironically, given its imminent demise, Hadopi seems to have finally claimed its first disconnection victim, as PC Inpact reports (original in French.) The person involved has been sentenced to disconnection for 15 days, and must pay a €600 fine. Strangely, it seems that he or she shared only a couple of works, so even that brief period seems harsh. However, there is still scope for an appeal, so the sentence is not yet definite.

And as PC Inpact explains, even if it is confirmed, it may be unenforceable: although access to the Web can be cut, Hadopi's rules state that the filtering must not affect email, private messaging, telephone or any associated TV services. Since these are typically all provided together, that may be tricky, or even impossible. Hadopi says it only hands out suspensions: it doesn't concern itself about how -- or even if -- they can be implemented.

So after years of operation, all that the three-strikes approach has to show for the millions that have been spent, are a handful of convictions: one where someone was fined but innocent, and another where the person involved probably can't be disconnected anyway. Great work, Hadopi.

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Reader Comments (rss)

(Flattened / Threaded)

  1.  
    icon
    fogbugzd (profile), Jun 17th, 2013 @ 10:08am

    It seems like they could just block torrent traffic for 15 days. Of course, that probably isn't the Draconian measure the backers of Hadopi had hoped to get.

     

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  2.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 10:42am

    although access to the Web can be cut, Hadopi's rules state that the filtering must not affect email

    Didn't there used to be a service that would copy web content accessable via http into email for transit over uucp?

     

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  3.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 10:43am

    Pirates will inherit the earth.

    LoL

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  4.  
    identicon
    Rabbit80, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 10:44am

    HADOPI may be breaking EU law anyway...

    http://torrentfreak.com/hey-hadopi-youre-breaking-the-law-we-made-three-strikes-illegal-across-all-e urope-130616/

    According to the above atricle..

    disconnecting anybody from the net without a prior fair and full adversarial court proceeding – exactly the thing the copyright industry had intended to bypass and cut citizens off en masse – was completely illegal across all of the European Union, and by extension, through the European Economic Area.

     

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  5.  
    identicon
    Rabbit80, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 10:45am

    Re: HADOPI may be breaking EU law anyway...

    Though I am not sure what an atricle is :(

     

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  6.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 10:46am

    You have to remember that most of the time schemes like this are not meant to be effective. At least not from an absolute enforcement point of view. They are highly effective at keeping the recording industry in the same seat of power they have enjoyed over the last few decades.

    This whole thing is used as a talking point, a bullet point for the next power point slideshow.

    It's used to convince people that it's a real enforcement as something is being done, even if it's not currently effective; and because it's not effective they should implement something else and spend even more money!

    It can also be used as a legal strong arm for any new innovative start-ups that might depend on anything remotely related to something covered by this law. Even the threat that a start-up might be illegal can cause it to stall as they look into the details.

    Hadopi might be a failure when compared to it's written objectives but it's a complete success story for all the unwritten ones.

     

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  7.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 10:47am

    "...associated TV services."
    Gotta make sure those eyeballs can still receive those advertisements.

     

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  8.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 10:52am

    So...1 disconnection in ~4 years.

    I thought that the Internet was a lawless sea of pirates.

     

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  9.  
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    John Fenderson (profile), Jun 17th, 2013 @ 10:55am

    Re:

    There are a number of such services available right now.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  10.  
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    crade (profile), Jun 17th, 2013 @ 10:59am

    "was fined but innocent"
    Not true, he was guilty. You just don't actually need to infringe on any copyrights or do anything wrong to be guilty.

     

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  11.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 11:03am

    It all depends on how you define piracy and lawlessness.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  12. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
     
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 11:07am

    Glyn,

    I know the Techdirt/Copyhater view is that HADOPI is dead/dying, but I don't think that view is accurate. See, e.g., http://copyrightandtechnology.com/author/technologyofcopyright/
    A few sessions at WCS particularly stood out. One was on antipiracy initiatives, such as the graduated response systems in France (Hadopi) and the US (Copyright Alert System). The most interesting thing we learned there was that, to paraphrase Mark Twain, recent rumors of Hadopi’s death (such as this one and this one) have been greatly exaggerated. (As is often the case, Ars Technica got it the most right.) The reality is that Hadopi’s core “three strikes” system will remain intact, but without the threat of suspending users’ Internet access and with maximum fines lowered from €1500 to €60. The Hadopi agency itself is to be disbanded, but the functions will simply move to another existing French agency, a process that has already started with the transfer of some personnel.
    Thoughts?

     

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  13. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
     
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 11:08am

    So after years of operation, all that the three-strikes approach has to show for the millions that have been spent, are a handful of convictions: one where someone was fined but innocent, and another where the person involved probably can't be disconnected anyway. Great work, Hadopi.

    Glyn,

    How is a negligent person "innocent"? They are liable precisely because they were negligent. I don't get it. Seems dishonest to say what you're saying.

     

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  14. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
     
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 11:14am

    Glyn,

    Sorry about the questions. I forgot that you NEVER discuss anything you've published. Why is that? It's right out of the Techdirt Playbook, that's for sure. What a shame that you can't be bothered to defend anything you publish. That says it all about you, unfortunately.

    Toodles.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  15.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 11:19am

    Re: Re:

    There are a number of such services available right now.

    What kind of hardware are they running on?

    Main thing I remember is getting a document —one that I really wanted— using up most of my quota on the other end of, oh, trying to think— a 9600? bps connection.

    It was probably some kind of specification or something, and pro'lly —what— a megabyte? Hell, I don't remember.

     

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  16.  
    icon
    crade (profile), Jun 17th, 2013 @ 11:27am

    Re:

    My thoughts are imho even your article says Hadopi is dead/dying..

    The only thing that made Hadopi different/controversial is the threat of suspending internet, which your article says is going away. That was the stick.. What else is left? Three strikes and then more strikes? The core of Hadopi was the suspension, not the strikes.

    It also says that the Hadopi agency is being disbanded and they are going to dump whats left of it on some existing agency to do in their spare time.. Not exactly what I would call thriving.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  17.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 11:27am

    Re:

    Key points form the ARS article:

    - The success rate of the "strikes" system in France is extremely questionable;
    - HADOPI (the entity) is a dead man walking. It will eventually be killed replaced by another entity;
    - They will no longer disconnect people. There will only be a system of (much lower) fines;
    - They are considering extending the "you must be a pirate tax" to devices such as smartphones and computers;
    - They want to introduce something called "Act 2 of the Cultural Exception" which, from what I could understand, is a tax on service providers.

    So the whole things is being gutted, with a few terrible ideas thrown in for balance. I still don't see how this is helping anyone. At least it will be (allegedly) cheaper to implement.

     

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  18.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 11:27am

    Re:

    You waited a whole 7 minutes. Impressive patience for your type.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  19.  
    icon
    John Fenderson (profile), Jun 17th, 2013 @ 11:28am

    Re: Re: Re:

    What kind of hardware are they running on?


    What do you mean? The hardware they're running on doesn't matter to you.

    These services all do the same thing. You send them an email with a URL, and their servers read the web page and email it back to you. Some services let you adjust what you get (receive it as an HTML email, or just plain text, for example).

    You can easily find an assortment by searching for "web via email", and I'm sure you'll find one that meets your needs.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  20.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 11:38am

    Re: Re:

    He just picked an easy target to be able to act "outraged".

    Glyn normally doesn't frequent the comments here. I don't know why and, frankly, I don't care. I presume that he has better things to do than to waste his time with ACs in general, and with that AC in particular.

    I also presume that Glyn doesn't have an aching necessity to "win" an argument like the AC above seems to have (just go over the comments from articles from last week and see for yourself what I am talking about).

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  21. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
     
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 11:42am

    Re: Re:

    Check for yourself: https://www.techdirt.com/user/glynmoody

    He's published 547 articles on Techdirt, yet only made two posts. You can do your own math, but that to me says that, like Pirate Mike, he's not willing to discuss what he publishes. What is it about TD? I've never seen a site so opinionated yet so scared of discussing the issues. Truly remarkable. Hey Glyn, if I negligently run over your family, killing them, would you say I was "innocent"?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  22.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 11:44am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    The hardware they're running on doesn't matter to you.

    Would if we had to port the code to a new platform.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  23.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 11:45am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    In my time people just used CURL.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  24.  
    icon
    dante866 (profile), Jun 17th, 2013 @ 11:45am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Another case of idiotic and nonsensical comparisons...how the hell is murder similar to copyright infringement?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  25. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
     
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 11:46am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Well, negligent people are "innocent," right? That's what Glyn thinks.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  26.  
    identicon
    TrollHunter, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 11:47am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Do not spook the prey.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  27.  
    icon
    John Fenderson (profile), Jun 17th, 2013 @ 11:53am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Oh, I thought you just wanted to use the service. If you want to run a server that does this, that's another thing altogether. This service can be easily done on a low-power machine using stock Linux + GNU tools. It's pretty low-tech.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  28.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 11:54am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Well, then you are guilty too, since I know for a fact that securing a network takes more than just setting up a password.

    Did you know that WAP can be cracked in seconds?

    WAP 2 is being replaced by WAP 3 and all of that in the space of a couple of years do you understand what that means?

    It means having to buy expensive hardware all again to keep an industry secure, telcos don't do that, they are using the same encryption protocol from the stone ages that has been broken by everyone else why should normal people be responsible for things that are beyond, way beyond their control?

    Now tell us how do you secure you network stupid.
    Did you set up your IDS already?

     

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  29.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 11:58am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Oh, I thought you just wanted to use the service.

    I don't live in France.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  30.  
    icon
    John Fenderson (profile), Jun 17th, 2013 @ 11:59am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    You don't have to live in France for these services to be useful. :)

     

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  31.  
    identicon
    Another AC, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 12:02pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    ...if I negligently run over your family, killing them, would you say I was "innocent"?

    No, that would be 'Manslaughter' which is specific crime. I don't believe there's a law anywhere stating that not realizing someone was using you wifi to infringe on copyrights (which is what I believe you are meaning) is a crime.

    Bad analogy.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  32.  
    icon
    Zakida Paul (profile), Jun 17th, 2013 @ 12:03pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "Bad analogy."

    That is all we get from copyright supporters

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  33.  
    identicon
    Rich, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 12:09pm

    Re:

    I don't know how they would be able to do that. Bit torrent traffic isn't tied to a standard port. They *could* do it via packet inspection, but not if you use encryption.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  34.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 12:14pm

    Re: Re:

    … but not if you use encryption.

    My understanding is that Bit Torrent has a fairly characteristic traffic signature. The connections and timing are reportedly distinctive.

    Think I could dig up a paper on that somewhere, but that might take a bit of searching.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  35.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 12:19pm

    Re: HADOPI may be breaking EU law anyway...

    It is well known that HADOPI breaks the european directive. HADOPI and IIRC a british law which was later scrapped were mentioned as exceptions. So, yes HADOPI would be illegal a short time after its infancy but it had a special excemption.

    Btw. HADOPI has probably been one of the best things for people against these overreaching programs since it has highlighted so many problems in the way it was handled that not even many of Sarkozys conservative bretherens in EP were defending it in the end...
    It was such a clear failure politically (Even disregarding its complete lack of results) and a hefty bucket of icecold water in the face of the protectionist lobbies that they are getting a harder time convincing politicians in the future!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  36.  
    icon
    DannyB (profile), Jun 17th, 2013 @ 12:21pm

    Re:

    Did you mean: Blessed are the geek, for they shall internet the earth?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  37.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 12:23pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    Yep they are so is HTTP and UDP protocols and easily spoofed to make look like anything you want.

    Deep packet inspection is horseshit.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  38.  
    icon
    DannyB (profile), Jun 17th, 2013 @ 12:27pm

    Re:

    Anonymous Coward wrote:
    > How is a negligent person "innocent"? They are liable precisely because
    > they were negligent. I don't get it. Seems dishonest to say what you're saying.

    How is a innocent person "negligent"?
    I don't get it. Seems dishonest to say what you're saying.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  39.  
    icon
    DannyB (profile), Jun 17th, 2013 @ 12:30pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    > how the hell is murder similar to copyright infringement?

    I hope you meant alleged copyright infringement.

    That is far worse.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  40.  
    icon
    Ninja (profile), Jun 17th, 2013 @ 12:33pm

    At least they wasted just a few millions. Obama spent a trillion saving banks and insurance companies.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  41.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 12:35pm

    Re:

    Your jumping to conclusions says it all about you, unfortunately.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  42.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 12:35pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    A copyright supporter is like a car where the windshield is replaced with a mirror. And there's no steering wheel.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  43.  
    icon
    The Groove Tiger (profile), Jun 17th, 2013 @ 1:12pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    No, actually, negligence is defined as failing to do your job properly, and thus failing to prevent the damage that your job was meant to prevent. It could mean just not doing your job (which causes harm), or ignoring security measures.

    So you can be negligent when repairing a bridge, or at doing some medical stuff, or feeding your children, or any other job where your bad decisions can cause property or health damage, but ONLY if done badly, lazily, etc, not merely because you didn't make the perfect choice.

    Calling anyone negligent for not doing something you WANT them to do but that they have no responsibility whatsoever for, that's just twisting words, which you're not even very good at (and not for a lack of trying).

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  44.  
    icon
    The Groove Tiger (profile), Jun 17th, 2013 @ 1:19pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    And milk. Loooots of milk.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  45.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 2:06pm

    Oh this gets better. The EU has ruled specifically that cutting the internet off is illegal in the European Union. So after all this the enforcement is debatable it can legally be carried out.

    https://torrentfreak.com/hey-hadopi-youre-breaking-the-law-we-made-three-strikes-illegal-across- all-europe-130616/

    In 2009, the European Union made 3 strikes disconnections illegal.

     

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  46.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 2:44pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    These are cross-posted from Glynn's site. If you want to discuss the article with him, you need to go over there.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  47. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
     
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 3:09pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I don't believe there's a law anywhere stating that not realizing someone was using you wifi to infringe on copyrights (which is what I believe you are meaning) is a crime.

    Not a crime, but a tort, and the very person we're talking about was found liable for just that.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  48. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
     
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 3:11pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Thx. Do you have a link to Glyn's site?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  49.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 7:00pm

    Re:

    ...and Obama was negligent as hell as he should have let the bastards die. It would have prevented the proverbial can being kicked down the road, which is all he did...

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  50.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 17th, 2013 @ 8:06pm

    So, let's review.

    HADOPI:
    - Took 4 years to convict one person, who didn't even actually download the files in question.
    - Took 4 years to disconnect one person.
    - Cost millions of dollars in taxpayer money.
    - Was threatened to have its funding cut, possibly inhibiting its ability to send out warning letters.
    - Responded to the above when put in practice by sending out EVEN MORE letters despite supposedly have said ability reduced by reduced funding.

    Aside from making the government richer, exactly how was HADOPI beneficial for music and artists?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  51.  
    icon
    JMT (profile), Jun 17th, 2013 @ 9:32pm

    Re:

    "What a shame that you can't be bothered to defend anything you publish. That says it all about you, unfortunately."

    The fact that you feel fully entitled to an author's time and attention says a lot about you. You have an unrealistically high impression of your own worth.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  52.  
    identicon
    Michael, Jun 18th, 2013 @ 4:47am

    Re:

    Small correction:

    - Took 4 years to issue a disconnect order that they do not know how to enforce to 1 person.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  53.  
    identicon
    Pragmatic, Jun 18th, 2013 @ 6:05am

    Re: Re: Re:

    He's a journalist and writes for other publications, e.g. Computerworld. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glyn_Moody

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  54.  
    identicon
    Pragmatic, Jun 18th, 2013 @ 7:28am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Perhaps he's too busy earning a living. Time spent "debating" (read "agreeing with") jerks like you is time spent away from doing paid work.

    Hell, I'd post more often if I wasn't busy working. But I'm paid to work for the company I'm employed by, not for commenting on TD.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  55.  
    icon
    nasch (profile), Jun 18th, 2013 @ 1:35pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Did you know that WAP can be cracked in seconds?

    WAP 2 is being replaced by WAP 3 and all of that in the space of a couple of years do you understand what that means?


    WEP or WPA?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  56.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 23rd, 2013 @ 1:48am

    Hadopi violates European Union law.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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