In Defense Of Digital Freedom: It's Time To Get Beyond 'Cyber' Hyperbole

from the speak-up dept

Marietje Schaake, a member of the European Parliament often credited as one of the most tech savvy (and, yes, a regular Techdirt reader) has penned an excellent article, In defense of digital freedom. It's well worth a read, even if it covers many things that regular readers of the site will be familiar with. The key point it makes, however, is that we shouldn't be frightened by all the "cyberwar" FUD out there, which is designed to get us to give up our ideals on internet freedom. It discusses how much hype there is around "cyber" everything, nearly all of it trying to scare people. She admits that there are real threats, but those driving the discussion seem to have little interest in parsing them out from the hype and bluster. She notes that, in this rush for new laws, we seem to ignore that existing infrastructure can actually handle most of the actual problems.
The good news is that we don’t need ‘cyber democracy’ to guarantee ‘cyber security’. In most cases the foundations for resilience are already in our existing laws and regulations. Technologies are an essential part of our daily lives, businesses, education, cultural experiences and political engagement. As a result, resilience and defense need to be integrated and mainstreamed to strengthen both freedom and security.

[....] To prevent fear, hype and incident-driven policies and practices, knowledge, transparency and accountability are needed. Let us not make ‘cyber’ into something completely different, alien or spacy. But rather, let us focus on integrating technological developments in a way that allows us to preserve core (constitutional) principles, democratic oversight, and digital freedoms as essentials in our open societies.
She also notes that much of the hype may be driven by companies and politicians who benefit from such hype, driving new business to companies and passing new laws that give politicians more power. But, she notes, if we make policy based on those two drivers, internet freedom will certainly be put at risk. The unintended consequences are pretty clear:
US government has stated that American made, lawful intercept technologies, have come back as a boomerang when they were used against US interests by actors in third countries.

Other companies, such as Area Spa from Italy designed a monitoring centre, and had people on the ground in Syria helping the Assad government succeed in anti-democratic or even criminal behaviour by helping the crackdown against peaceful dissidents and demonstrators.
One key point she makes is that we need to have a fact-based, careful look at the issues, in which we avoid conflating very, very different things (i.e., random hacking with "war").
To avoid a slippery slope, clear distinctions between various crimes and threats are needed. Economic damage as a result of criminal activity should render a different response than a state-led attack posing national security threats. Yet, at the moment, at least in the public debate, the distinction between various cyber threats is very unclear. Uncertainly can make people feel vulnerable, while it is internet users and citizens that need to be informed and empowered. We need to build resilient and educated societies instead of installing fear.

States also need to prioritise in their partnerships, and look for consistency of actions by different government departments. Recently, the United States chose to sign a bilateral agreement with Russia on combatting Intellectual Property Rights infringements. The agreed cooperation seems in direct contradiction with objectives of the State Department in the field of internet freedom. In Russia, a newly adopted law gives the state the authority to use Deep Packet Inspections in internet traffic.
There's a lot more in the piece as well, and I think many of our readers will find it quite interesting. It's always nice to know that there are some elected officials in the world are trying to base key policy decisions, including those around internet freedom, on reality rather than fear and hype.


Reader Comments (rss)

(Flattened / Threaded)

  1.  
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    Anonymous Coward, May 24th, 2013 @ 9:32pm

    If you listen to 1020 AM around here (Univision America - Los Angeles, it's in Spanish) they sometimes discuss the fear of hackers and cyberterrorists hacking into the power grid and causing all sorts of problems for business and everyone. When I hear it I laugh, what a bunch of nonsense. How can this stuff even get on the radio like this?

     

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    Paul, May 24th, 2013 @ 9:52pm

    "The Sky is Falling" Same B/S different story - remember how they tried to scare everybody about New Years Eve 2000?

     

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    horse with no name, May 24th, 2013 @ 11:27pm

    All that

    All that, yet you never mention her involvement with Wikileaks the the disgraced Julian Assange. Her views are well known and publicly documented over and over again, and this new article doesn't really add anything (but certainly gets you suck up points, I suspect).

     

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    mmrtnt (profile), May 24th, 2013 @ 11:52pm

    My Contribution

    Okay, if it hasn't already been coined, I suggest:

    "Cyberbole"

     

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  5.  
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    That Anonymous Coward (profile), May 25th, 2013 @ 12:32am

    Re:

    Because no business has actually ever been held liable for failing to secure their own network. We don't force them to spend anything on these systems while the CEO's are making 1000+ times what the average worker makes in the company. To lower CEO pay to meet required security levels would be a crime in their minds, so lets make everyone else bear the financial and privacy burdens.

    As has been said so many times if you want to secure your network, take it off the internet. Mission critical infrastructure things don't need a web interface.

    But it helps the narrative that we need more laws and rules, that can and will be used to spy in citizens, to remain safe.

     

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  6.  
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    That Anonymous Coward (profile), May 25th, 2013 @ 12:33am

    Re: All that

    Funny I didn't catch that report on Julian Assange violating the laws of several nations and covering up the murder of innocents by his agents.

     

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    horse with no name, May 25th, 2013 @ 12:40am

    Re: Re: All that

    Ahh, so two wrongs make a right?

    Glad idiots like you don't have guns.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 25th, 2013 @ 12:42am

    Re: Re: Re: All that

    So SWAT teaming and illegal spying in order to crush the haven of piracy, Megaupload, wasn't right in your opinion. Two wrongs don't make a right.

    Glad we could confirm it by your own words, thanks.

     

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    Mike Masnick (profile), May 25th, 2013 @ 1:14am

    Re: All that

    All that, yet you never mention her involvement with Wikileaks the the disgraced Julian Assange.

    What involvement with Wikileaks and Julian Assange? As far as I know there is none.

    I'm guessing that you're confusing her with Birgitta Jonsdottir, a very different politician.

     

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  10. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
     
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    Anonymous Coward, May 25th, 2013 @ 2:31am

    Recently, the United States chose to sign a bilateral agreement with Russia on combatting Intellectual Property Rights infringements. The agreed cooperation seems in direct contradiction with objectives of the State Department in the field of internet freedom.

    I can see how you found this with your 10 minutely "Intellectual Property" Google search.

    But anyway, she appears to be just as confused as you Mr Masnick in not understanding the difference between "Intellectual property" and "Internet Freedom", doing deep packet searches is not the same as taking away your internet freedom, it is no fire wall, but to investigate IP right theft it is just another tool.

    In other words Internet freedom is not an automatic right to breach IP laws, I know you really, really want it to be that way. But it's not.

    Just because YOU CAN copy or steal something off the internet, does not make it legal for you to do that.

    Internet freedom is not the freedom to steal whatever you like because "it's the internet".

    In relation to your calling all this "Cybersecurity" "Hype" and FUD. Clearly it does occur and on large scale both commercial, protect, and state advancement. It does happen, and this lady simply states you need knowledge and openness in that regard.

    Masnick you are not knowledgeable or open about cyber threats, you dismiss them as FUD and HYPE.

    Clear the is FUD, fear, uncertainty and doubt, but that is because these attacks are real, they DO occur often and they are routinely report in the news.

    It's not the politicians coming out independently and making these statements but making them in response to actual real like occurrence's and their frequency. (often).

    All she is saying, is get the facts, be level headed and aware, be informed, prepared, alert but not alarmed.

    All you appear to be saying is "it's all just FUD and Hype".

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 25th, 2013 @ 2:59am

    Re: Re:

    The question is why the heck are power grids even connected to the Internet in such a way that hackers can hack them and knock out power (assuming they are).

    Someone ought to call in and ask them that and bring these issues up and record the conversation in case they fail to air it we can put it on youtube.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 25th, 2013 @ 3:06am

    Re: Cyber Sales

    How many times do we see some US computer/software marketer banging on about some puffed up security threat, "don't by a modem from XYZ country, because they put in a security Hole"
    what bozos, the US government already compromises the equipment US companies SELL.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 25th, 2013 @ 3:09am

    Re: Re: Re:

    and we should specifically mention that this was never a problem before the Internet. Now that the Internet exists this is suddenly a problem? Why can't they do like before and not have their stuff connected to the Internet and if they do have it connected to the Internet why shouldn't they be responsible to secure it.

     

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    That Anonymous Coward (profile), May 25th, 2013 @ 3:15am

    Re: Re: Re: All that

    Your so cute...
    I have access to all sorts of weapons and can weaponize all sorts of common household items.

    What exactly does my access to weapons have to do with the topic at hand?

     

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    That Anonymous Coward (profile), May 25th, 2013 @ 3:19am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Once upon a time they had unpublished 'secret' phone numbers that only the people in control should have. You could call one of those numbers and get workers to do really stupid things simply because you called the number. Wardialing really terrorized them...

    Connecting things to the net is seen as trendy and cool... because they are never forced to bear the weight of their own bad decisions. We want to do this cause it sounds cool and we'll fire anyone who offers any resistance because its a horrible idea.

     

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    That Anonymous Coward (profile), May 25th, 2013 @ 3:36am

    Re: Re: All that

    HOW DARE YOU LET FACTS GET IN THE WAY OF A RANT!

    *giggle*

     

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  17.  
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    Anonymous Hero ( namefagging = opinion inequality , May 25th, 2013 @ 3:49am

    This is a hard one to counter because everyone needs to work together

    In all reality, this ""cyberwar"" thing is not going to be defeated easily.

    Be an outsider : LOOK at the arguments from an outsiders perspective.
    "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" rational argument "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar" "cyberwar"

    You can not compete with the emotional message of , we are under threat of war if it is spammed out there as propaganda to scare the masses. The actual facts and intellectual arguments are irrelevant. Ask a single viral marketeer who spams a thousand press releases on a Monday morning if he can mislead and create a narrative that the masses eat up. (it happens nearly weekly)


    All rational argument will not succeed. Like it hasn't before.
    One of many examples.
    "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" Iraq's capability to do anything has been crushed by years of sanctions "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" But Sadam doesn't have any weapons of Mass Destruction "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" Weapons inspector found No wmd's "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" Intellectuals think a war in Iraq is needless if not nefarious"wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd" "wmd"

    There is only one way to counter this type of mass brainwashing propaganda. It evolves using the tactic too. Anti-intellectual, I know. How else can you compete ?
    You repeat the same phrase over and over again until everyone knows it. Preferably mocking the word "cyberwar" or at least "cyber". The important thing is that we ALL use the same word/phrase. ALWAYS return to the propaganda phrase...ALWAYS


    TL;DR

    ■ Rational arguments are useless against this type of relentless "narrative spam".

    ■ When your stupid assed neighbor who doesn't even know how to switch on a computer starts talking about "cyberwar".... it's over. They win the public will to own all the internets.

    ■ We have to counter using their tactic of repetitive propaganda.



    If you honestly think that intellectually rational arguments can win, you must not be an intellectual who is thinking rationally

     

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  18.  
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    Greevar (profile), May 25th, 2013 @ 5:21am

    Re:

    There is no such thing as "Intellectual Property". That's a made-up term aimed to make people view copyright differently.

    Internet freedom is about defending the right to free speech on the internet. So long as certain types of speech (copyrights) are treated like property, our freedom of speech is being infringed upon. It goes against very core concept of freedom of speech to say that there are certain speech I can't use because someone "owns" it. If speech is the natural right of every human being, then applying property concepts to certain speech is a clear violation of that right. But people like you will put property rights above all others.

    No, these attacks aren't frequent, only their news coverage is frequent. There has been a rise in news coverage of school shootings, but guess what! School shootings are on the decline. In fact, many crimes that are such fodder for news outlets are actually declining as they crank up their coverage. There's a saying in the news biz, "if it bleeds, it leads". It's all FUD and none of it is as real as the news portrays it.

    "Just because YOU CAN copy or steal something off the internet, does not make it legal for you to do that."

    It may be illegal, but it sure as hell isn't wrong. It's not anybody's property, it's everyone's right to say anything and everything on the internet. That includes creative works, because they are a form of speech and nobody has the right to violate my natural right to speech just because they have the foolish notion that they can "own" that speech. To all who think they can own the content they create, you disgust me.

     

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  19.  
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    Anonymous Coward, May 25th, 2013 @ 5:37am

    Re: Re: All that

    You have to remember, all the shills around here are on crack. This applies to most IP extremists. They're all on crack and that's why nothing they say makes any sense.

     

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  20.  
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    Anonymous Coward, May 25th, 2013 @ 5:46am

    One key point she makes is that we need to have a fact-based, careful look at the issues

    Yeah, that's not gonna happen. 90% of Congress is just barely smart enough to remember to breathe. Reason and logic aren't going to work, otherwise they never would've bought all those stupid arguments in the first place.

    What we need is a strategy that works on dumb people. Really, really dumb people. People dumb enough to think "cyberhackers" is a term someone familiar with computers would actually use unironically. That mind-bogglingly dumb.

     

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    jameshogg (profile), May 25th, 2013 @ 7:24am

    Re: This is a hard one to counter because everyone needs to work together

    There is also the "anti-propaganda's propaganda" effect.

    "Saddam had no WMD" "Saddam had no WMD" "Saddam had no WMD" "Saddam had no WMD" "Most of the rational people making the case for taking out Saddam knew there was no WMD at the time, but that was not the end of the story. He was a genocidal, totalitarian, Big Brother - the sanctions were killing hundreds of thousands and we couldn't lift the sanctions/no-fly-zones in case he tried to kill the Kurds again or try to get Iran/Kuwait again. There was very little alternative from historical experience. If he didn't implode the country, Uday and Qusay certainly would have. If it were anyone else - the killers of Rwanda, Darfur, Milosevic in Bosnia and Kosovo, the Burmese generals, Assad in Syria, the military of North Korea or fucking Joseph Kony - our need to take them out would be indisputable." "Saddam had no WMD" "Saddam had no WMD" "Saddam had no WMD" "Saddam had no WMD" "Saddam had no WMD" "Saddam had no WMD"

    Rationality means neither having blind faith in leaders NOR doing the exact opposite of what your leaders say. It means looking at evidence, argument, being dialectical, avoiding cliche, not being a megaphone for anybody, coming up with your own unique rhetoric, being willing to stand in front of millions of people and tell them they've all bought into an ad populum fallacy without blinking, and this is most important of all: being willing to self-scrutinise and not being afraid to change your mind about something even after being incredibly committed to the other side. All of this. The only way one can claim to be rational with any credibility at all is if one accepts how fallible and prone to bias one is.

    I think there are genuine threats that can be born out of the internet. I'm queasy about the 2nd amendment but I cannot help paraphrase the NRA's mantra and substitute one key word to demonstrate what I mean: "the internet doesn't free people, people free people."

    It disturbs me when the Chinese government, for example, sets up fake opposition blog websites in order to lure dissenters and snares them unexpectedly when the time is right. It disturbs me when Islamic fascists will crowdsource protest videos in order to identify the protesters and murder them the next time they step outside their houses. It disturbs me when everything you potentially send on the internet cannot be undone since it is a huge recording machine, and future employers can find it easier than ever to hold one embarrassing moment against you at every turn. It disturbs me how, as someone who believes in separation of powers, power has accumulated very centrally in terms of cloud computing (personal data being stolen in one swoop in the Megaupload raid - because apparently the actions of a few people were excuse enough to shut down a whole company), Google being effectively the centre of the internet, and ISPs having too many bottle necks of the economy due to globalisation effects. It disturbs me how witch-hunt and mob mentalities can spring up easier than before, whether it is using Blackberries to start riots in England, falsely naming names in sex-predator hysteria, or Reddit turning vigilante over an innocent person. It disturbs me how conservative many media organisations are being about the utopian fantasy that is copyright law, and how they keep pushing forward anti-piracy laws with all kinds of slippery slopes while hiding behind copyright as a veto, against seemingly no real opposition in Parliaments.

    When it comes to that last point, I hope the irony isn't lost on everyone. As long as you are willing to stand up for intellectual honesty when it comes to, say, copyright being extended infinitely and on no basis, you end up realising that the "cyber" war was declared on YOU, and not the other way around.

    However - the arguments about liberty, privacy, and freedom remain the same. The internet has done little to change them. Some change, yes, but not much. The metaphor I use to describe the internet's role in politics and a lot of other things is that it is a "catalyst" - it doesn't change the chemical reaction, but it speeds it up and gives it more life. This is true for the good and the bad.

     

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  22.  
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    Zakida Paul (profile), May 25th, 2013 @ 7:49am

    Re:

    Talking up cyber threats in order to get people behind legislation like CISPA (which do more harm than good) and to sell expensive security software to help people 'protect themselves'?

    If that is not FUD, then I don't know what is.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 25th, 2013 @ 8:12am

    Re:

    Been talking to your solar panels for advice AGAIN, darryl?

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 25th, 2013 @ 8:33am

    'It's always nice to know that there are some elected officials in the world are trying to base key policy decisions, including those around internet freedom, on reality rather than fear and hype'

    oh so true. the problem is, however, that the voices of the ones that would benefit by hyping up the 'cyber' threats are always the loudest, even though they most probably are not the most sensible.

    the other scary thing is that when 'cyber surveillance' bills that are introduced and fail, there seems to be an uncanny closeness to horrific acts, as happened in Boston, taking place. i noticed a similar thing in reports from the UK where the 'snoopers charter' as it was/is called was thrown out and a person was then killed under horrendous circumstances. not wishing to be or intending to be disrespectful to the families of those left behind after these events, would the ability to read a text message, an email or listen to a conversation really have stopped what happened? i very much doubt it but those that want to remove as much freedom and privacy from ordinary people and give corporations and governments more control of our lives use the incidents to validate the need. once these bills become law, rest assured, to get rid of them will be a nightmare, probably never happening. you can also be pretty certain that those that want them introduced will be ex-surveillance themselves. if people want to be monitored 24/7, let the bills become law. if having the right to freedom, privacy and other things is what you think should be in place, these bills need to be fought against, just like the fight against ACTA etc.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 25th, 2013 @ 3:03pm

    Firstly, I think the internet is the most democratizing invention to have ever graced this planet. EVER ! WE can talk to each other freely. Even if one of us was in a Iran, we could proxy up and communicate.
    That power of not relying on the media or the government for information is truly liberating. Just thinking about it for 5min makes you realize it's power.
    So I believe, because of my beliefs, you underestimate the greatness of the connections we now have. You see it, but I don't think you realize the power in it.



    You highlight the same problem (in more detail) with the intellectual argument compared to the blatant dumbed down propaganda.
    The intellectual argument acknowledges all the details and complexities to its detriment.


    War was seen by millions of people to be a really retarded thing to do. Want Sadam gone.... Assassinate the cunt, what the fuck are you going to war for.
    ■ At that time Sadam was NO threat to his neighbors or the outside world.
    ■ Sadam was less of a threat than war was to his people.
    But the intellectual argument defeated itself and it's intended goals.
    Of course the* other shit* you clearly showed was relevant but those nuances in complexity water down the message. It was however part of the intellectual argument. Not all of it. Only the part that supported the spammed narrative. And so that part was used to say..."see, even the Anti-War hippies agree".

    Like against someone who ONLY says YES.
    The intellectual argument is NO but...bla bla, little bit yes but NO because bla bla maybe yes but OVERALL NO.

    AIM = No War
    TACTIC = Agree with some Pro-War but say "Overall No"

    While Pro-War don't acknowledge any argument from the Anti-War side.
    Didn't see pro-War people saying the weapon inspectors didn't find WMD's or that War would kill more people than no war. Not a mention of alternative ways to take out Sadam.
    Their message was clear and didn't allow nuance even when facts disproved it.


    That Iraq "WMD" example is annoying.... to many nuances and details.
    Could be here all year dissecting the use of propaganda for that war.



    Back to "Cyber War" lol



    Nuanced intellectual arguments only appeal to, and are listened to by intellectual people who have the time to contemplate.
    ( not the masses who are too busy in life and some that are too stupid )


    The phrase "Cyber War" does not acknowledge complexity. "cyber war" = BAD
    The intellectual argument is blaa blaa Cyber War is a threat but it's over exaggerated and bla bla cyber threats can be dealt with in other ways.
    Self defeating.
    The masses hear both sides say Cyber War is real.

    End of, they are not listening anymore.

     

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  26.  
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    Adam Witt (profile), May 25th, 2013 @ 4:54pm

    Re: Re:

    100% Agree!

     

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    horse with no name, May 25th, 2013 @ 7:02pm

    Re: Re: All that

    Sorry, her involvement with wikileaks is pretty deep, she is their main EU political apologist, and has even been mentioned here on Techdirt as a founder (in comments).

    Sorry!

     

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    Mike Masnick (profile), May 25th, 2013 @ 8:29pm

    Re: Re: Re: All that

    Sorry, her involvement with wikileaks is pretty deep, she is their main EU political apologist, and has even been mentioned here on Techdirt as a founder (in comments).

    Sorry, but that's simply incorrect. You still seem to be confusing her with Birgitta. She has nothing to do with Wikileaks.

    Sorry!

    You should be. Because you're wrong.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 25th, 2013 @ 9:04pm

    Re: Re:

    yes, because trying to develop better and more efficient solar panels and alternative energy gathering methods is so much LESS helpful to mankind and the environment than being an editor of TechDirt, or wanting to get your pirated shit without recourse to the existing laws.

    Developments in technology that simply would not have been done, if those development were not protected by IP laws.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 25th, 2013 @ 9:17pm

    Re: Re:

    It may be illegal, but it sure as hell isn't wrong.

    wrong or right, it's illegal, that's all that matters.
    No one cares if you agree with laws or not, lots of criminals clearly do not agree with laws, but that does not mean they are not bound by those laws.

    Also because you have some stupid definition of Intellectual Property does not mean it is any less real or valid to the person who owns it.

    The general population and the law recognises IP, and recognises it's validity and reality.

    "you disgust me"..

    you amuse me !!!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  31.  
    identicon
    Andrew F, May 25th, 2013 @ 10:17pm

    Honestly, whenever a politician talks about "cyber", my first thought is "I put on my robe and wizard hat."

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  32.  
    icon
    Greevar (profile), May 25th, 2013 @ 10:31pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    "wrong or right, it's illegal, that's all that matters.
    No one cares if you agree with laws or not, lots of criminals clearly do not agree with laws, but that does not mean they are not bound by those laws."


    Laws are not supreme nor should they be blindly obeyed. If a law is wrong, then it is the duty of the citizens to disobey that law and this law is wrong. It doesn't make me a bad person or a criminal simply because I oppose a bad law. It was once illegal to help runaway slaves to escape, should people that violated that law be branded criminals and subjected to the full punitive action assigned to that law? "The law is the law" is just an excuse for people to commit atrocities with impunity.

    "Also because you have some stupid definition of Intellectual Property does not mean it is any less real or valid to the person who owns it."

    I'm not the one making up stupid definitions of what is property. Those would be groups that promote IP concepts. "Intellectual property" is a made-up term meant to serve in a semantic battle that sways minds to support the copyright side by appealing to people's attachment to the basic concepts of property.

    "The general population and the law recognises IP, and recognises it's validity and reality."

    That's completely, categorically false. There is no law that defines a concept of "intellectual property". I know, I've studied the copyright act and read it's definitions. IP isn't one of them. Even in chapters 9 and 13 of the copyright act, the property rights assigned pertain to the specific design that the owner possesses, not the expressions inherent in the design. Copyright only assigns rights to distribution of a work; it does not assign ownership of the work itself.

    As far as the general population goes, that's just your baseless assumption. There's more to the network of sharing media than just the torrents and file lockers. There has always been the networks of friends and family privately sharing amongst themselves completely invisible to the public internet at large. People share media through IM, private SFTP, email, and other private non-peering networks.

    What amuses me is that I can back up my assertions with verifiable facts and data, but you make your claims based purely on conjecture and assumption. My conclusions fit the observable data, while you try to twist the data to fit your conclusions.

     

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  33.  
    identicon
    horse with no name, May 26th, 2013 @ 12:59am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: All that

    Mike, don't be a fuckwad about it. I'm wrong, that's fine. Accept the apology like a big man, don't be a fucking prick.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  34.  
    icon
    special-interesting (profile), May 26th, 2013 @ 5:14am

    The phrase “Cyperbole” has a nice ring to it.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  35.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, May 26th, 2013 @ 5:27am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: All that

    and where did you apologize before this point?

    So, what, Mike is supposed to not correct you when you act like an idiot and say something incorrect and, upon being corrected, you double down on your stupidity and finally give your twisted version of an apology after being corrected a second time? Does this really reflect well on your position?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  36.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, May 26th, 2013 @ 5:28am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: All that

    (On your overall position, ie: IP extremism)

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  37.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, May 26th, 2013 @ 5:29am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: All that

    IP extremism and more govt. intrusion *

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  38.  
    icon
    special-interesting (profile), May 26th, 2013 @ 5:32am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    A nice realization of how technology has brought us new ways to express ideas/concepts/feelings through new formats like MP3/mkv/avi/pic/mpg/pdf/etc. Which contain content that in itself we alone cannot express or articulate.

    Throughout history there has been no other law more damaging to the spread/growth of cultural knowledge/awareness than eternal copyright. If the term limits of copyright were sensible in the way that anyone might share their learned revelations to others before they die/expire then there would be little or no problem.

    Everyone wants to be a storyteller of great import and wisdom. Often we need to spew out all the collected bits of understanding, of some topic/concept, to friends, and or groups using the various media available, just to get feedback and opinion thus revising/growing/shrinking our greater knowledge as a whole. Eternal copyright makes even this most-common form of association and expression illegal. (the cultural insanity is mindboggling)

    In the way that ideas and freedom of expression are involved in no way is the badly phrased term Intellectual Property (IP) recognized except in disgust and revulsion. (At least anyone who is aware of what is being sacrificed/lost/stolen.)

    The recent criminalization of eternal copyright law has put a burden on US/EU/world society that is only exceeded by the extremely bad mistake of Drug law. The cost of copyright prosecution alone, now the responsibility of US DoJ, might all by itself bankrupt an already strained government/economy in the same way that drug law drains from society at large.

    The additional unspoken/uncalculated cost of a lost culture of freedom should make any patriot/citizen cry.

    Freedom of speech, Freedom of the Press, Freedom of Expression and Freedom of Association are but a few of the now almost lost Constitutional values that make up a core of American cultural values. Ever wonder what and how to define culture? They are the shared values that we express when we associate with each other and speak out about current issues/concepts/topics/whatever.

     

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  39.  
    identicon
    Danielle, May 26th, 2013 @ 10:06am

    Intellectual Slavery

    I prefer Intellectual Slavery to the term Intellectual Property. It is an attempt to place ideas under the control of one master. The opposite, of course, is Intellectual Freedom.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  40.  
    identicon
    horse with no name, May 26th, 2013 @ 6:43pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: All that

    No, Mike is suppose to correct when the facts are on his side (not just opinion).

    In the real world, when someone says "I'm sorry" you generally accept it and move on. You don't look at them and say "you should be!" and generally be a prick about it. In the real world, that would get you a swift kick somewhere for being impolite. Mike's attitude here isn't one that is going to get him a lot of support.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  41.  
    icon
    Mike Masnick (profile), May 26th, 2013 @ 7:05pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: All that

    In the real world, when someone says "I'm sorry" you generally accept it and move on.

    Um, you said sorry, but still insisted you were right. I was pointing out that you were still wrong.

    If you'd actually apologized for being mistaken then that would be one thing. But you didn't.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  42.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, May 27th, 2013 @ 12:09am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Funny, I didn't think developing better solar panels involved talking to them and acting like a raving lunatic like you do.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  43.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, May 27th, 2013 @ 4:02am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: All that

    So now you are suggesting you have added long distance mind reading to your godly super powers as a blogger?

    I'm sorry that you are wrong. I am sorry that you are too much of a prick to take an apology like a man. I am sorry for those who have to work with you on a daily basis.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  44.  
    icon
    Mike Masnick (profile), May 27th, 2013 @ 9:01am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: All that

    No, you didn't apologize. You said: "Sorry, her involvement with wikileaks is pretty deep..." which was flat out false. The "sorry" there implies "sorry you're wrong" not "I'm sorry I was wrong."

    If you were actually sorry you got it wrong (as you did) you wouldn't have insisted that her involvement with wikileaks is pretty deep.

    Not sure what game you're playing here, but you could just admit you were wrong and actually apologize.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  45.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, May 27th, 2013 @ 10:29am

    Re:

    Working a short time for a utility will show you that in general utilities, and the industrial sector as a whole, are far behind traditional IT in terms of cyber security program maturity.

    There is a reason that the US Gov. is shoving cyber security down the electric companies throats (see: NERC CIP). Critical Infrastructure does have a cyber threat, perhaps the FUD is out of control, but it is there. And the electrical sector is arguably the most critical piece of our infrastructure.

    Additionally, the security problem for the industrial sector is more complex than companies failing to implement sound security practices. Device/system lifespans, insecure by design control system components (from huge control system vendors who are slow to change), and other factors all play a part in the current vulnerability of many control systems.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  46.  
    identicon
    horse with no name, May 27th, 2013 @ 9:32pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: All that

    You said: "Sorry, her involvement with wikileaks is pretty deep..." which was flat out false.

    Not so true. She has come out on the side of Wikileaks often enough, it's all over online.

    I am sorry I confused her with one of the founders of Wikileaks.

    Now, can you stop being a prick for a second and accept an apology like man, or are you going to keep going on like like a superior being and piss down on me?

    Oh, and I will gladly accept your apology for being a prick about things, if you are man enough to offer it up.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  47.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, May 28th, 2013 @ 3:08am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: All that

    So then you won't have any trouble linking to those sources, since it's "all over online". A quick search gave me "On March 24th, Marietje Schaake will speak in a panel about digital freedom at the Movies That Matter festival in The Hague after a showing of the movie Wikileaks: Secrets and..." http://www.marietjeschaake.eu/tag/wikileaks/ and an anonymous comment on TD.

    Not to mention that "her involvement with wikileaks is pretty deep" is not the same as "has come out on the side of Wikileaks often enough".

    But hey, keep pretending that you have apologized for being wrong.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  48.  
    identicon
    Pragmatic, May 28th, 2013 @ 3:50am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: All that

    Horse with no shame, nobody forces you to post here and make a huge fool of yourself every time. Take your correction and be grateful that Mike spared you a moment of his time. It's not like you deserve it or anything, you troll.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  49.  
    identicon
    Pragmatic, May 28th, 2013 @ 3:52am

    Re: Bilateral agreement with Russia

    Since when has copyright infringement anything to do with security? You've given your game away, shill.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  50.  
    identicon
    horse with no name, May 28th, 2013 @ 7:05pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: All that

    If you think I look foolish, then don't read my comments. I can tell from Mike Masnick's aggressive, angry, and childish comebacks that I hit a nerve somewhere.

    I suggest you re-read his comments, and understand who the troll is. It's not me.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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