Retired Lt. Col.: Violent Media Has Bred A Generation Of Killers

from the not-to-subtle,-huh? dept

I can understand why someone who watches the news on a daily basis might shake their head in dismay. I get how it must feel necessary to put the blame for tragedies like Sandy Hook somewhere, anywhere, even if the eventual target of ire is misplaced. There's probably a certain ill-conceived synergy in pointing at violence in movies for a horrific theater shooting, even if the jury is at best out on the concept of violent media causing violent behavior. But when you hear someone so arrogantly sure that all of this wrong thinking is right and then using that arrogance to pompously try and scare the shit out of everyone, it deserves pushback.

So push back in your own way on Retired Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, whose hobbies amount to telling anyone that will listen that violent media has bred a "generation of vicious, vicious killers."

“This generation is going to give you massacres in the domestic environment and in the work environment,” he predicted, with unrestrained outrage, after ticking off a sobering list of mass murders -- particularly those that have occurred on school grounds and university campuses -- which have plagued American society in recent years.
It's a scare tactic that would be absolutely compelling were it not so absolutely wrong. Nevermind that no conclusive link between violent media and mass violence has been demonstrated, the fact of the matter is that in the long view, mass shootings are decreasing. As is violent crime in general. If one wanted to play the correlation game, they might happily state that violent media is decreasing violent output. I personally won't go that far, but it's fairly difficult to square Grossman's claims with reality.
“There is a generation of vicious, vicious killers out there,” he told his audience. “The video games are their trainers. They’ve been playing Grand Theft Auto every spare moment since they were six years old.”
Oh, please. Who the hell could listen to Niko's voice for years without killing themselves long before they killed anyone else? And besides, if these children are killers and the games their trainers, given the statistics already noted, then the little bastards are really bad at being killers and the games are a poor training manual, since none of this seems to be coming true. But if you thought Grossman had emptied his scare-clip at you already, you're wrong.
His views were no more subtle when he turned his sights to the international scene. A dozen years after the 9/11 terrorist attacks, the energetic and charismatic speaker sees life-threatening threats emanating from Pakistan, Russia, North Korea and Iran. What will the next 9/11 look like, he wondered aloud, before answering his own rhetorical question: “We’re going to get nuked.”
Lovely, and perhaps it will someday happen, but he forgot to mention something: if you look at the number of terrorist incidents in America throughout history, you'll note that the sharp increase in their occurence is non-existent. An enterprising commenter can graph the whole list out from that link if they like, but here's a brief example. We live in the year of our lord, 2013, so let's just start in 2012 and count how many terrorist incidents happened every ten years back:

  1. 2012 - 3 incidents, 9 killed
  2. 2002 - 14 incidents, 15 killed (note: the beltway sniper is counted as 11 separate incidents, which is stupid. This number should be 3 incidents total.)
  3. 1992 - 2 incidents, 1 killed
  4. 1982 - 6 incidents, 3 killed
  5. 1972 - 7 incidents, 6 killed
  6. 1962 - 1 incident, 44 killed
  7. 1952 - 0 incidents, 0 killed

Now, my use of 2012 as a starting point certainly is convenient in leaving out 9/11, but it's useful to note that outliers don't dominate the statistics. I should also note that this list ignores Pearl Harbor as the site of a terrorist attack, which seems incorrect in a way. The idea isn't that we can't be concerned about terrorism of any kind, be it Islamic fundementalist or the home-grown Aryan Nation variety, but if you make it your business to go around scaring people like Grossman does, you shouldn't leave out the more comforting facts simply because it is inconvenient to your narrative.

The next generation is not one of killers, this generation is not having to deal with terrorism in a way never before required, but it may be true that the media is more like Grossman and less like myself in that they enjoy scaring you for profit. Beware the man or woman who makes simple proclamations, because they're usually forgetting to tell you something.



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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 5:46am

    "the media is more like Grossman and less like myself in that they enjoy scaring you for profit"

    Tim says it like it's a noble stance but the anti ip attitude of the techdirt "crew" is always against profit, at least of the created by forced IP rights kind.

     

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    Mark B (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 5:48am

    There's always a scapegoat

    In the 80's I played Dungeons and Dragons so I guess that makes me a mass killer. 90's violent movies and games, now that is back again. I guess I have been killing people for the last 30 years. It will be sad when enough people start believing this bull and put some bad laws in place.

     

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    Mark B (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 5:49am

    Re: Topic?

    What the hell does that have to do with the article?

     

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    S. T. Stone, May 21st, 2013 @ 5:54am

    Re: Re: Topic?

    Absolutely nothing, which is what you are about to become.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 5:56am

    Ironic considering his career

    And what does the military train people to do retired Lt. Col? Go to the middle east and have picnics with and dances with our enemies?

    Sure it's not teaching people to go up and shoot random Americans in the street, and most military people are law abiding citizens, but some of them do kill innocent Americans and commit violent crimes. Just like some violence video game players do those things, but most don't. By your same logic we should therefore be blaming the military for violent crime done by people in the military.

     

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    S. T. Stone, May 21st, 2013 @ 6:02am

    I’ve either played or watched footage of every Doom, every Mortal Kombat, all four Splatterhouse games, every Halo game, every GTA from III to V, the entire God of War anthology, both Manhunt games, and countless other violent videogames.

    I’ve watched all seven Saw films, Ninja Scroll, just about every Freddy and Jason movie (including Freddy vs. Jason), and a countless number of other violent or otherwise horrific films.

    I’ve seen pictures of and read descriptions of horrors so disturbing and nauseating that I cannot speak them aloud.

    I’ve done all of these since well before I turned eighteen.

    I turn thirty-two this July.

    I have never commited a violent crime in my entire life, and I haven’t commited an act of violence against anyone since the eighth grade. I might have a bit of a fucked-up imagination and a foul mouth, sure, but I don’t confuse fantasy with reality.

    I don’t disprove his bullshit claims, but I’d like to think I serve as a strong defense against them.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 6:05am

    In June 1914 every one would have believe that anyone who accurately foretasted the violent death toll and the world shake up of the next 50 years a loon at best.

    War of course is nothing more than a 3D game people play similar in some aspects to the electronic version with real consequences.

    (If this is not understood read "Games People Play" by Eric Berne.)

    For normal people violent games are simply a game; for a small minority of nut cases they are training for mayhem which no rational person can comprehend.

    The basic problem here is not the game or the guns used in the game but the nut cases that play the game.

     

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    Zakida Paul (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 6:06am

    Yeah, because no one makes their own choices in life.

    I am so sick of our scapegoating society.

    Immigrants and unemployed blamed for government deficits - bullshit.
    Violent video games blamed for real world violence - double bullshit.
    Current governments blaming previous governments for the 'problems they left behind' - infinity bullshit.

    It is time for politicians, corporations and the general public to step up and take responsibility for their own failings.

     

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    out_of_the_blue, May 21st, 2013 @ 6:06am

    HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    Yeah, you can pick out some isolated numbers to make your case that all is just ducky. -- You're as blind as the Mainstream Media in seeing only what you want to. -- But here's what the current generations of Americans are ACTUALLY doing:

    Iraq: A War of Aggression. No WMDs, No Connection to Al Qaeda

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/iraq-a-war-of-aggression-no-wmds-no-connection-to-al-qaeda/532 7548

    '"Operation Iraqi Freedom" unleashed a tragedy of immense proportion. More than 3,000 American soldiers and tens of thousands of Iraqis have been killed. Close to 7,000 Iraqi civilians were killed in July and August 2006 alone. In October 2006, the British medical journal the Lancet published a study conducted by Iraqi physicians with oversight by epidemiologists at Johns Hopkins University's Bloomberg School of Public Health. The study estimated that 655,000 Iraqi civilians had died since Bush invaded Iraq in March 2003.

    Loss of life isn’t the only shocking and awful consequence of “Operation Iraqi Freedom.” The United Nations concluded in its July-August 2006 report that bodies found “often bear signs of severe torture, including acid-induced injuries and burns caused by chemical substances, missing skin, broken bones (back, hands and legs), missing eyes, missing teeth and wounds caused by power drills or nails."'

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 6:08am

    Re: Re: Topic?

    Tim in the article criticised Grossman and most of media for attempting to profit or actually profiting from the dissemination of fear.
    So, just like techdirt's general tone of criticising those who attempt to profit from the blind wielding of IP enforcement he is again criticising those who attempt to profit from actions that are fully legal. The man is against profit except his and techdirt's own accepted means of making profit which is some kind of liberal nonsense about providing good things that people actually want at a reasonable price.

    Pirates ... Pshaw

     

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    That One Guy (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 6:08am

    Re:

    I hear you man, I too just hate actually reading the articles, so I'll have a good understanding of what has been said and can come up with comments relevant to the article, before posting.

    Much easier to just imagine what you think or want the articles to say, and post accordingly, as it's a huge time and thought saver.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 6:09am

    Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    On topic and coherent. What have you done with the real out of the blue?

     

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    That One Guy (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 6:10am

    Re:

    Wait, I think I just got Poe'd... well played AC, well played.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 6:13am

    Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    If video games caused violence then the Americans affected would probably be committing all kinds of acts of violence all around the globe.

    Oh yeah, they are.

    Hell though, if it was really videogame related they'd be piloting remote controlled vehicles all over the middle East and killing people whilst sitting safely in a shed in some backwater piece of some redneck state and complaining about the PTSD they suffer for it.

    Oh...

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 6:18am

    Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    I don't know what's going on but I'm agreeing with blue?

    It's worth remembering that nothing breeds terrorists faster than being instrumental in the deaths of their loved ones.

    Between drone strikes and illegal wars the US has alot to answer for. When it ignores it's crimes can anyone really be surprised that it's victims (or their families) want revenge?

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 6:20am

    Re: Re: Re: Topic?

    Yeah providing what people want and at reasonable price is nonsense. Preaching to the choir!

    7/10 on the troll-meter, someone is actually engaging in discussion on your own level and the subtle way you get that attention is by making wrong assumptions and discrediting on the surface, while being complete nonsense underneath.

     

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    ChrisB (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 6:22am

    Re:

    There are many people like you. I love horror movies, but I can't watch a knee surgery on TV without gagging. I love violent movies, but have never got into a fight in my life. I'm horrified when I see real violence.

    There will always be people who can't distinguish fantasy from reality (schizophrenics) and there will always be people who like violence (psychopaths). Violent video games and movies have nothing to do with either.

     

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    PaulT (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 6:23am

    Re: Re: Re: Topic?

    Poe's Law strikes again. If you are what I think you are, bravo.

     

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    Harold K, May 21st, 2013 @ 6:23am

    Its the availability of guns, not the games.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 6:25am

    Re: There's always a scapegoat

    roleplaying, computer games and maybe even VHS? You are ready for the stretcher, man. The trifecta and being named "Mark", that must be the definition of this guys worst fears!

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 6:25am

    Ripping wings off flies

    I remember before the advent of video games the "next mass murderer" was the quirky kid who pulled wings off flies and started killing cats and dogs in his teen years.

    So with my ill conceived logic the introduction of violent video games should show a reduction in animal cruelty and flightless flies.

     

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    RyanNerd (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 6:30am

    Responsibility

    As a society whenever violent tragedy strikes we almost always blame the wrong thing. We blame bad parenting, violent media, violent video games, music with violent lyrics, violent role playing games. Rarely do we place responsibility where it belongs: With the person who pulled the trigger.

     

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    Trails (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 6:33am

    Re:

    for a small minority of nut cases they are training for mayhem which no rational person can comprehend.


    Ahhh, the heart of the bullshit, served with the duck included. No rational people can comprehend but trust us, it's there.

    This notion that video games train people is such epic bullshit. Let's break it down shall we?

    Let's analyze a bit what's needed to kill, and how videogames do or do not help:
    1. Knowledge of how to use weapons - I've never fired a gun in my life, but I've heard tell from people who have that video games don't help you shoot. I've never learned shit about knife work from video games, though two years in a butcher shop sure helped.
    2. Physical conditioning - Running around attacking people takes a certain amount of stamina. Halo never helped my endurance of anything except junk food.
    3. Strategy and tactics - Video game AI is pretty lame sauce when compared to the real thing, even to this day, and game scenarios are rarely realistic.

    Now, if what you're trying to convey is that video games somehow morally "train" people to kill (which is nonsense on its face) bear in mind that the VAST majority of games have strong moral overtones, at least in the broad strokes. DOOM is fighting demons from Hell, Halo is fighting aliens who want to exterminate humanity, Warcraft is fighting the undead who want to exterminate life (there are other baddies in WoW, but that's 40 paragraphs on its own). Sure there are outliers such as indie/homegrown stuff with any kind of content you can imagine (and probably some sick shit you would have never thought of), but that's not what we're really talking about, is it?

    In fact part of the appeal of many video games is being the good guy, saving the civilians, blah blah blah. It aligns with our pre-existing morals and hero fantasies.

    So, how exactly does a video game train someone in ways no one can understand? Cause I sure can't understand it.

     

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    Zakida Paul (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 6:38am

    Re: Ripping wings off flies

    I used to pull the wings and legs off daddy long legs and I turned out just fine.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 6:40am

    i think the way to look at this is that this guy was in a senior position in the armed forces. he was in charge of an awful lot of men and responsible for the welfare of the nation and those in it. if that doesn't scare the shit out of you, it damn well should do!!he has the same attitude of whoever is pulling the strings in Congress and the White House. that everyone is a terrorist or at least must be treated as such, even and including the citizens of the nation. everyone must be put under constant surveillance, have as much if not all freedom and privacy removed, then do anything and everything they are told as quickly as possible and without question! talk about trying to get everyone brain washed!!

     

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    Dark Helmet (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 6:42am

    Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    "Iraq: A War of Aggression. No WMDs, No Connection to Al Qaeda"

    Iraq: a country that DID use WMDs, DID harbor international terrorists, DID invade other countries (twice), and DID commit genocide. The Iraq War wasn't only not illegal, it was technically mandated by the UN genocide convention. What was illegal was anyone voting against it. Don't let Bush's bumbling confuse you into thinking it was an illegal war.

     

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    PaulT (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 6:43am

    Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    So.. what's your point? That the guy in the article should be looking at the actions that occurred under his command before blaming videogames for society's problems? That he has more important and intelligent things to talk about than games and fear of other countries? If so, I agree.

    But you know, if you combined your insane drivel with something that at least gives people a clue as to what the hell your point is, you might get somewhere. As it is, you're just informing me of a well known failure of US foreign policy under the previous administration. Yep, that happened. What that has to do with the article is something you need to make a little clearer.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 6:47am

    Re: Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    Except we knew it was happening and did nothing.
    Then the people revolted and we did nothing to help them.
    Then we realised we didn't like the price of oil and invaded.

     

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    Lesath (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 7:18am

    If video games made people violent I would have gone a rampage in the early 80's. If violent video games bred generations of 'killers' I would have gone a rampage in the 90's. Name a first person shooter and I've probably played it on some platform.

    Something always has to be the scapegoat and it's video games turn now. Started with comics, then TV, then D&D, then on to video games. I'm sure something in the future will displace video games as the scapegoat.

     

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    crade (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 7:23am

    Only problem is there is just as much violent media in other countries that aren't currently having a rash of psychos flipping out...

     

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    jupiterkansas (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 7:32am

    The only time I see the world as overly violent is when I watch the news. Nothing but scare-mongering.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 7:33am

    Re: Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    A country that did have WMDs up until 2001 but didn't have any with certainty after 2006 and this was known.

    Did invade 2 other countries, the first of which they were both encouraged to do and supported in doing by the US.
    The second of which the UN ruled against them on and the provisions of that resolution were what was followed to toss them out of Kuwait, albeit the US went far beyond the provisions of that resolution.

    As far as genocide goes, that was awful but historic. It was neither happening nor possible by 1992 never mind 2003 and was not a reason nor justification nor could it be for the glaringly illegal invasion in March 2003, the consequences of which led to far more deaths, maimings and dislocation than even the worst excesses of the al-anfal campaign could be credited with. Apologists for the crimes of the US are nearly as bad as the murderous self enriching assholes at the heart of the US government who brought the US to the depths of ignominy and shame; which is their enduring and ongoing legacy going hand in hand with the full on dismantling of the rule of law within the US the full consequences of which still hang upon a few last remaining threads over the heads of it's citizens.

     

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    Dark Helmet (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 7:34am

    Re: Re: Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    "Except we knew it was happening and did nothing."

    If your point is our ouster of Saddam was done far too late, I agree. That doesn't negate the rightness of doing so in 2003.

    "Then the people revolted and we did nothing to help them."

    If your point is we didn't help our Kurdish allies in the north and rebels in the south when we first should have, I agree. That doesn't negate the rightness of doing so in 2003.

    "Then we realised we didn't like the price of oil and invaded."

    It's always fun to listen to the anti-war in Iraq crowd, since they negate their own arguments so much. Bush wanted to avenge his father, so he had plans to go into Iraq when he first came into office, but he also didn't do so until oil prices weren't what we wanted. The war was illegal, except it would have violated the international charter we signed NOT to go to remove Saddam for his genocidal actions. We can't go to war over oil, instead leaving one of the world's largest oil supplies in the hands of an international gangster crime family that treated its own citizens as its own personal property.

    It's very easy and currently in vogue to decry the war in Iraq. Too bad doing so puts you on the side of a genocidal dictator. Too bad doing so ignore the fact that a confrontation with that country was GOING TO HAPPEN one way or the other, and it was better for us to choose the time and place for it. Too bad Saddam said after the Gulf War that his only mistake was invading Kuwait BEFORE getting the nuclear bomb he wanted so badly. Too bad he gassed the Kurds, killing thousands of people in his own country. Too bad we were spending untold amounts of money enforcing a never-ending no fly zone as the only means to ensure he didn't commit genocide AGAIN. Too bad Saddam did harbor terrorists and did financially support suicide bombers in Palestine/Israel. Too bad Saddam turned the oil for food program into his own personal palace-building slush fund.

    Christ, are you even listening to yourself?

     

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    Another AC, May 21st, 2013 @ 7:46am

    Not to Nit-Pik

    But here's Nit-Pik:

    2002 - 14 incidents, 15 killed (note: the beltway sniper is counted as 11 separate incidents, which is stupid. This number should be 3 incidents total.)

    I believe that should be 4 total - gotta count one of those 11 at least ;)

     

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    crade (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 7:52am

    That article you linked to doesn't seem to say that mass shootings are decreasing at all. It says there hasn't been an increasing trend over the last "several decades", but it definately increased in 2012. It doesn't seem to make the claim that there has been a decreasing trend either, though, and seems to just assume that 2012 was an anomaly and can be ignored.

     

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    Dark Helmet (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 7:57am

    Re: Re: Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    "A country that did have WMDs up until 2001 but didn't have any with certainty after 2006 and this was known."

    Huh? The inspectors were sent in in 2002. What does their not having WMDs after 2006 have to do with anything? We did NOT know they didn't have any in 2002, which was the whole point of the inspections farce.

    "Did invade 2 other countries, the first of which they were both encouraged to do and supported in doing by the US.
    The second of which the UN ruled against them on and the provisions of that resolution were what was followed to toss them out of Kuwait, albeit the US went far beyond the provisions of that resolution."

    Again, the sins of our past don't negate the rightness of subsequent actions. In fact, it only strengthens the argument to oust Saddam in order to correct the mistake we made back then. The largest of those mistakes was not removing Saddam in 1993, which has since been corrected.

    "As far as genocide goes, that was awful but historic. It was neither happening nor possible by 1992 never mind 2003"

    Only because of the no-fly zone, which we put in place, paid for, and in which we were flying the sorties. It's worth remembering that the air patrols over northern Iraq were often times fired upon by Iraqi soldiers. It was only our restraint at the time that kept us from obliterating the soldiers at that time, but that is an act of war.

    "the consequences of which led to far more deaths, maimings and dislocation than even the worst excesses of the al-anfal campaign could be credited with."

    If you want to play the game of accounting for the consequences of the war, at least play it fairly by listing them all. No longer does the Iraqi government host terrorists like Abu Nidal. No longer are the marshlands burning to the ground, what has been called the greatest ecological disaster of our era. No longer is the Middle East a land of people unwilling to determine their own future, instead rising up against their oppressors. No longer does the government of Qaddafi have WMDs, since he gave them up when he saw Saddam's fate and they are now stored safely in the United States. No longer does our ally Israel have a madman at their gates, one who previously launched missiles into their borders.

    Do you really suggest the Arab Spring had nothing to do with our ouster of Saddam? Do you really think the message hasn't been sent to the region that the world will not accept dictators of Saddam's kind? You need to do more than just count up the deaths when it comes to consequences of war, friend....

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 8:02am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    Erm most of that is you agreeing with me and then trying to put words in my mouth...

    No-one is saying Sadam wasn't a bad guy, he really was, but that alone doesn't validate the invasion. It certainly doesn't make the lies told to congress and the American people OK.

     

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    The Real Michael, May 21st, 2013 @ 8:08am

    Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    9/11 = Operation Northwoods

     

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    Gwiz (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 8:12am

    Re:

    Tim says it like it's a noble stance but the anti ip attitude of the techdirt "crew" is always against profit, at least of the created by forced IP rights kind.


    If your marketing strategy involves the use of any kind of "force", then maybe your doing it wrong.

    Just my 2¢.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 8:14am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    "What does their not having WMDs after 2006 have to do with anything?"

    Seriously?

    The fictional justification for the invasion was the claimed existence of the non existent WMD, so what does them not having them over 6 years prior to the invasion have to do with anything?

     

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    The Real Michael, May 21st, 2013 @ 8:22am

    Re:

    Um, really? If that's the case then there should be data correlating with mass shootings ever since gun ownership was made Constitutional several centuries ago, yet that simply isn't the case. Most of the gun violence in America is directly related to poverty, drugs and gang violence, most of which is caused by illegal guns. Law-abiding gun owners aren't in the habit of running around going on shooting sprees, contrary to the media's Constitution-hating gun control propaganda.

     

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  42.  
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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 8:23am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    Definitely like reading a psychotic patriotic american caricature from something like "Team America."

    There is a truly unfortunate amount of rhetoric in your post, and demostratably false things.

    Also, the actions starting the war are NOT justified by the ousting of Saddam, sorry.

    You're also negating all the negative consequences (the war has NOT reflected well on the US) such as the undermining of the UN, imposing US brands of justice and government on people who don't want it, and the ruination of the country.

    There were people who were worse than Saddam who could have been ousted as well, so saying all this junk about Saddam is just so much crap. It is the ruination of a country for ostensibly doing nothing, and attempting to intimidate the middle east into quieting down.

    Cause that's worked so well in the past.

     

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  43.  
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    Chris-Mouse (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 8:23am

    Re: Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    Iraq: a country that DID use WMDs, DID harbor international terrorists, DID invade other countries (twice), and DID commit genocide. The Iraq War wasn't only not illegal, it was technically mandated by the UN genocide convention. What was illegal was anyone voting against it. Don't let Bush's bumbling confuse you into thinking it was an illegal war.

    The United States is the only country to use nuclear weapons in battle, and still has the world's largest stockpile of them.
    The United States government ignored requests to extradite Luis Carriles to face terrorism charges. Oh, and don't forget about The School of the Americas
    The United States government overthrew the government of Iraq in 1963, bringing Saddam Hussein to power. The US also overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran in 1953. There are at least a dozen other times and places where the United States has intervened in the governments of other countries.
    Even a simple scan of the history of the United States will show the blatant genocide commited against the native tribes of the US midwest and west.

    By your logic, the rest of the world is not only permitted, but obligated to invade the United States and replace the government.

     

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    Dark Helmet (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 8:26am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    "No-one is saying Sadam wasn't a bad guy, he really was, but that alone doesn't validate the invasion."

    For those reading this string, if you ever want to confirm that someone doesn't know what they're talking about when it comes to Iraq, just wait for them to say "Saddam is a bad guy" and you'll have all the confirmation you need. Saddam wasn't a "bad guy". He was a homicidal crime boss that committed genocide, invaded two foreign nations in aggression, bombed another, harbored terrorists, and previously used WMDs. If you can't take out that kind of dictator, who COULD you take out?

    "It certainly doesn't make the lies told to congress and the American people OK."

    Well, no kidding. What Bush did was reprehensible. And it wasn't even NECESSARY. The case could have been made on the merits rather than with lies, half-truths, and bad intelligence. I'm not pro-Bush, I'm pro-removing Saddam.

     

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    Dark Helmet (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 8:29am

    Re: Re: Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    "By your logic, the rest of the world is not only permitted, but obligated to invade the United States and replace the government."

    Incorrect. For a country to lost its sovereignty in the international community, it must break all FOUR:

    1. Engage in wars of aggression
    2. Commit genocide
    3. Harbor international terrorists/gangsters
    4. Be in non-compliance with the UN WMD regulations

    The US has certainly NOT violated all four of those. Iraq, on the other hand, was guilty of all four on multiple accounts each....

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 8:37am

    Latest in a loooong line of people pointing fingers at the wrong thing

    In the 80s, I met Chuck Jones, ex-WB animator, in an animation store in Manhattan, and he was very concerned. He was dealing with accusations that kids watching violent cartoons (specifically Road Runner cartoons) were creating a generation of violence-prone Americans and he wanted to talk about it. His opening words to me were, "You haven't killed anyone lately, have you?"

    He was being facetious, of course, but it was evident that he was disturbed by the accusation. It hurt him that this thing he'd made that had entertained several generations of kids and adults was being used as a prop in some idiot's game. This latest iteration is the same old, same old. Let's point an accusing finger at everything and anything; anything to distract from the conversation we need to have about gun control. I wonder what this retired light colonel's stake in the fear is.

     

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    crade (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 8:38am

    Re: Responsibility

    The person who pulled the trigger is always blamed and punished plenty (assuming they aren't already gone). Trying to learn the whys is intended for the future, not the past.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 8:47am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    He was a homicidal crime boss that committed genocide, invaded two foreign nations in aggression, bombed another, harbored terrorists, and previously used WMDs.

    That can all be applied to the USA. So unless you feel other nations would be within their rights to invade the US I think you need to sit down and work this out.

    The timing of the invasion was wrong, the info was wrong the only thing about it was right was the target. That is DoJ style thinking and is certainly not a valid argument for the invasion being legal.

     

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    John Fenderson (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 8:52am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    If you can't take out that kind of dictator, who COULD you take out?


    Ones who are attacking us or our allies. None others.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 8:53am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    The US is founded on genocide, so point two is a well known fact.
    With Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq and many others, the US has engaged in many,many wars if aggression.
    The US as well as engaging in terrorism as well as providing financial and material support to terrorists as they did with the IRA and the Congrats they have and continue to harbour terrorists wanted in other countries Luis Posada Car riles to name but one.

    As far as WMD goes, non of the nuke poses sing nations have fulfilled or have attempted to fulfill their obligations under the non proliferation treaty which requires them to disarm something they are not even attempting to do and on which no meaningful progress has been made in the 45 years that they, including the US have been subject to that agreement.

    So, yes, the US does meet your requirements to be invaded and have regime change enforced on it.

     

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    John Fenderson (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 8:56am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    I would argue the US has broken all four, just not necessarily simultaneously, depending on your definition of "commit genocide".

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 8:59am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    1) check
    2) borerline, how many Iraqis and Afgans do you need t kill before you're genocidal?
    3) Check
    4) I don't know about "non-compliance" as such but I do know that the availability of WMDs n the worlds markets is largley due to the US's refusal to accept disarment after Russia lost the cold war.

     

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  53.  
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    John Fenderson (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 9:00am

    Re:

    He wasn't claiming that mass shootings are decreasing. He's claiming that they aren't increasing.

    He did also report that the number of violent crimes has decreased, which is true, but that's a different thing from mass shootings.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 9:06am

    Funny coming from a retired military guy. Doesn't the world's militaries actually train people to be a "generation of vicious, vicious killers."?

     

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    Dark Helmet (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 9:07am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    Since the genocide convention was signed by the UN, no genocide has been committed by the United States. What was done to the native Americans was awful, but not of any note in this discussion.

     

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    BigKeithO, May 21st, 2013 @ 9:12am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    Why does 'Merica insist on "taking anyone out"? World Police! Fuck Ya!

     

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    Dark Helmet (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 9:22am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    Check again:

    1. Engage in wars of aggression - likely there are examples of this
    2. Commit genocide - Not even close. To suggest this means you don't understand the definition. No specific ethnic group or people was singled out for destruction in whole or part in either Iraq or Afghanistan. Only armed combatants were sought, with no distinction on ethnicity or race made.
    3. Harbor international terrorists/gangsters: Please provide examples, as many as you can over the 200+ year lifespan of our country, and let's see what that list looks like. Keep in mind Saddam personally harbored such terrorists himself over a much shorter timespan.
    4. Be in non-compliance with the UN WMD regulations - The US absolutely IS in compliance with this treaty. In addition to being an allowed nuclear state, the US has eliminated over 80% of it's deployed nuclear warheads and 90% of its non-strategic warheads in NATO. We're currently in the process of eliminating entire categories of warheads and delivery systems as well. We've also reduced the role nukes play in the military since WWII. The treaty does NOT mandate immediate disarm of nuclear states, but gradual disarming as a prime policy. The US has done that.

    All you've proven is that the US does NOT meet the criteria, so this discussion should be over....

     

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    Dark Helmet (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 9:24am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    "Why does 'Merica insist on "taking anyone out"? World Police! Fuck Ya!"

    You'd rather abdicate our human obligation to keep genocides from occurring? That's fine if you want that to be your policy, but then we need to remove our signature from the genocide convention....

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 9:37am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    So the past is the past.

    Which is rather the point.

    When the US and it's tagalongs of the bullied and the credulous invaded;
    Iraq did not have WMD or the capability of manufacturing them.
    It was not engaged in any form of genocide.
    It was not engaged in war with any other country and it was not harbouring terrorists despite much manipulation to play make believe with that.

    The invasion of Iraq was a war of aggression, the very crime that Iraq committed and the people responsible for it and the subsequent deaths, maimings etc are at least as criminal as Hussein was.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 9:39am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    You're just wrong DH and so desperately grasping at this point it is rather embarassing. Cut your losses and stick to things you do understand.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 9:40am

    Apparently the Lt.Col. has never served in the combat MOS's. One of the things that does come with combat since you put your ass on the line is rank. You know, if you are lucky enough it's the people around you die, not you, increasing you senior status for eligibility. War does weird things to the mind. People aren't the same when they return as the innocent one they sent into it.

    The military's job is to break shit and kill. That's what they do. I suspect the good Lt. Col. never had to get out in it and find out just what his branch did do.

    You can desk jockey your whole career or you can come in say a psychologist and start out as a Lt. Col., which means he never got promoted if that is the case.

    On the whole it sounds like he's someone with enough rank to be stupid and dangerous to those around them. That is exactly what started fraggin' parties in Vietnam is the troops wanted to survive the experience and it was unlikely with leaders such as this bonehead would have been.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 9:49am

    Grossman never misses a chance to bring up the subject of violence in the media. School shootings are like desert to these people.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 9:50am

    Re:

    *dessert*

     

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  64.  
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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 9:52am

    Re: Re: Responsibility

    Unfortunately, the whys are always far more numerous and complex than most people are willing to accept.

     

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    lar3ry, May 21st, 2013 @ 10:14am

    Pshaw

    "There is so much comedy on television. Does that cause comedy in the streets?" ~ Dick Cavett

     

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    ltlw0lf (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 10:18am

    Re: There's always a scapegoat

    In the 80's I played Dungeons and Dragons so I guess that makes me a mass killer.

    I don't remember the mass killer part. People who used to ridicule me about D&D said it was antisocial, devil worshiping, and made me susceptible to killing myself, but I'd always laugh because they obviously never played themselves and didn't have a clue.

    It will be sad when enough people start believing this bull and put some bad laws in place.

    Unfortunately, and it may be my cynicism, but that is likely the expected outcome (for the children.)

     

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  67.  
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    art guerrilla (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 10:30am

    Re: There's always a scapegoat

    are you an 'merikan citizen ? ? ?

    then you ARE a mass murderer, OWN IT, psycho killer...

    OUR Empire murders,
    we (including me) do NOT overturn Empire,
    therefore, we are complicit in the murders,
    we are ALL psycho killers by proxy...

    art guerrilla
    aka ann archy
    eof

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 10:33am

    Thank god that moron is retired. He has absolutely no clue and it's obvious he's scared of what he does not understand. "Technology"

    Go back to the dark ages asshole we have no use for people like you in this age.

     

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    JWW (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 10:35am

    Ummmm 9/11

    Not only did you not count 9/11 in your 2012 grouping, you didn't even count it in your 2002 grouping (where it would belong)!!

    It represents a massive outlier in the number killed, but to be fair about the data it really should be in there.

     

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    Ruben, May 21st, 2013 @ 10:44am

    Re: Re:

    How about Australia as an example. In the 90's they passed comprehensive gun control, and as a result, violent gun crime is almost nil.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_control_in_Australia#Measuring_the_effects_of_firearms_laws _in_Australia

     

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    The Groove Tiger (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 10:54am

    "Retired Lt. Col.: Violent Media Has Bred A Generation Of Killers"

    Really? I thought the military did that.

    *BURN*

     

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    M. Alan Thomas II (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 11:20am

    Re: Ummmm 9/11

    He's counting events only in those specific years, not "grouping" nearby years.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 11:52am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    "being an allowed nuclear state"

    Just as a sidebar, there is no such thing as an allowed nuclear state.

    The NPT has two types of signatories, states with nuclear weapons who are promising to disarm and states without nuclear weapons who are promising not to develop nuclear weapons. The only nuclear related thing "allowed" to states is that every signatory nation is "allowed" to develop nuclear power for peaceful purposes, although US interpretation of that is, as is generally the case in their foreign relations, unless we don't like you.

     

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    The Real Michael, May 21st, 2013 @ 12:05pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    Violent GUN crime.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 12:24pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I loved that game

     

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    Zem, May 21st, 2013 @ 12:44pm

    Re: Responsibility

    "With the person who pulled the trigger"

    And here we see the other responsibility issue people refuse to take action about. It was done with a gun.

     

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    MissingFrame, May 21st, 2013 @ 1:08pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    I guess all those other countries in the Genocide Convention are a bunch of pansies that's why the U.S. has to bring the arsenal and take out the assholes themselves. Why even have a Convention if the U.S. is going to be the sole provider of World Policing?

     

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    JarHead (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 1:13pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    Typical...

    "Oh the almighty US of A, please deliver us from our pain and suffering..."

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 1:14pm

    Given how much Grossman is ridiculed for his thesis, perhaps musicians in particular and people in general should abandon the belief in the phrase 'Music has charms to soothe the savage breast' ?

    Advertisers spend millions to convince people to buy anything from sugared water to sexy unmentionables because they and their target audience believe those messages, subtle and not so subtle, works. How much did those Stupor Bowl ad spots cost? It is possible to persuade people to buy and to soothe their rage, but impossible to provoke passion and persuade to kill?

    There is no comparison between the military and violent entertainment games. Grossman made clear those distinctions in his articles and two books: On Killing and On Combat. Both of which am willing to bet none of his critics here have read. On Killing is on the Marine Corps Commandant required reading list.

     

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    roderick (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 1:23pm

    Re: Apparently the Lt.Col. has never served...

    "Apparently the Lt.Col. has never served in the combat MOS's."

    Grossman was an Army Ranger. His bio is not that difficult to find.

     

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  81.  
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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 1:58pm

    Re:

    Given how much Grossman is ridiculed for his thesis, perhaps musicians in particular and people in general should abandon the belief in the phrase 'Music has charms to soothe the savage breast'?

    Yes, they should.

    It is possible to persuade people to buy and to soothe their rage, but impossible to provoke passion and persuade to kill?

    Not impossible, but highly unlikely in the context of violent media. You need something more personal, or at least more profitable, to manipulate a person into killing.

    On Killing is on the Marine Corps Commandant required reading list.

    Which no doubt lends validity to its content and leads to a much healthier attitude toward shooting the enemy in the head.

     

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    Jay (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 2:02pm

    Setting the record straight

    In 1953, the US ousted the Iranian PM who was democratically elected for a CIA puppet dictator that happened to be a religious fundie group.

    The US also implemented Saddam in Iraq to help in the 70s.

    Both groups hated each other which can't be said enough.

    The US, being run by neocons, ignored Afghanistan and Al Qaeda even though Rumsfeld was given Bin Laden on a silver platter and he opted to ignore it.

    The public was lied to with Bush admitting that he committed the War effort to try to privatize Social Security (it's in his autobiography).

    He never should have been president. He had the longest vacation of any president. He increased our deficit to fund two illegal wars. He destroyed civil liberties which Obama has continued when there are far better alternatives.

    Saddam was nothing more than a target for neocons for oil and the US got kicked out for having a private force (Blackwater) running like an occupation and killing people in the name of the US.

    Meanwhile, Cheney makes BILLIONS off of the war effort for guns and murder while the soldiers get the mental health issues.

    And when we look at the costs.... The explosions of democracies from the removal of the status quo...

    I can't say it was worth taking out a dictator that we installed in the first place.

     

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    Sheogorath (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 2:20pm

    Error in article

    2. 2002 - 14 incidents, 15 killed
    (note: the beltway sniper is counted as 11 separate incidents, which is stupid. This number should be 3 incidents total.)

    Eleven plus three equals the total of fourteen, so shouldn't the total of incidents be four in a sensible world?

     

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    roderick (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 2:21pm

    Re:

    "Yes, they should."
    Good. Then we can say that artists of all stripes are grossly overpaid since their works are essentially worthless.

    "Not impossible, but highly unlikely in the context of violent media. You need something more personal, or at least more profitable, to manipulate a person into killing."
    If it is not impossible, then that is exactly what Grossman is and have been trying to explain. We do not live our lives in a moral and intellectual vacuum. If we do not receive those moral and intellectual education from our parents, we will receive them from elsewhere, from a family mentor or even a murderer. Entertainment and political commentaries are no different in that regard.

    "Which no doubt lends validity to its content and leads to a much healthier attitude toward shooting the enemy in the head."
    This tells me you have not read Grossman's books.

    The difference between violent entertainment and the military is that the latter is a controlled environment. Under that is the difference that recruits in the military are of sufficient mental and intellectual maturity to understand the atrocity of killing another human being. For an an Air Force guy like myself, that atrociousness is more intellectual than emotional. But for an Army soldier and a Marine, either trooper are required to know killing at a much more physically personal level and that made the atrociousness of the act more emotional.

    This crucial difference is exactly what Grossman tries to make clear but people in their knee-jerk reactions to any alleged infringement of the First Amendment rights immediately ignored.

     

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  85.  
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    Sheogorath (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 2:28pm

    Re: Ummmm 9/11

    Not only did you not count 9/11 in your 2012 grouping, you didn't even count it in your 2002 grouping (where it would belong)!!
    Since Timothy is grouping by year, 9/11 doesn't belong in the 2002 grouping, but the 2001 grouping. If you don't believe me, check out this Wikipedia article on the attacks.

     

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  86.  
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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 2:39pm

    Re: Re:

    Good. Then we can say that artists of all stripes are grossly overpaid since their works are essentially worthless.

    Why worthless? Does music need to turn savages into princes for music to have any value?

    If it is not impossible, then that is exactly what Grossman is and have been trying to explain.

    Not impossible in the same way it's not impossible for a beautiful work of art to inspire a person to kill. That's nowhere near likely enough for concern.

    This tells me you have not read Grossman's books.

    That's right. The irony is nevertheless plain to see.

    This crucial difference is exactly what Grossman tries to make clear but people in their knee-jerk reactions to any alleged infringement of the First Amendment rights immediately ignored.

    The only difference appears to be that killing in times of war is somehow perceived to be legitimate regardless of the motives for whichever side you're on, and that the role of psychologists like Grossman is to help young cadets come to grips with the emotional consequences of such a necessary act.

    You think Grossman would have a bigger problem with that than with fictional violence.

     

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  87.  
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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 2:42pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    Should read: "You'd think ...", not "You think ..."

     

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  88.  
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    Anonymous, May 21st, 2013 @ 3:02pm

    This, coming from a paid killer? Oh, the irony...

     

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  89.  
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    Rekrul, May 21st, 2013 @ 3:55pm

    I like how all of these articles about how mass killings are on the rise always blame video games or movies, but yet not one of them looks at the effects of legally-enforced coddling of today's children.

    Kid does something wrong and you spank them? They'll go tell a teacher and you'll be the one in trouble. Send a kid to bed hungry and you'll get a visit from social services for child abuse. Parents today are afraid to punish their kids and the kids know it. They know that they can get away with almost anything and there will be few consequences for it.

    Back when I was little, I was afraid of my father. He wasn't a bad man, but he did have a fairly bad temper and I got swatted more than a few times. I didn't dare do anything that would actually break the law. Unlike today, where the worst thing about a trip to court for most kids is being bored listening to the judge.

    Not to mention the "everyone's a winner" mentality that gives kids a sense of entitlement. "Of course you all get stars because you're all winners!"

    We're raising a nation of arrogant, over-entitled kids who have no fear of punishment and then we're surprised when they go out and commit real crimes such as murder?

     

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  90.  
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    Anonymous, May 21st, 2013 @ 4:15pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    Which of these has the US not violated at some time or other?

     

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  91.  
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    Anonymous, May 21st, 2013 @ 4:20pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: HEY, TIMMY, don't forget the illegal WARS:

    Since you seem to believe what the government tells you, Dork Helmetrax, yes, this discussion should indeed be over.

     

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  92.  
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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 4:43pm

    Re: Ironic considering his career

    I remember the last time I 360 quick scoped an innocent man sitting at a bus stop. I kept getting lag kills while playing Call of Duty that I just had to take my rage out on a real person. If it wasn't for that game I wouldn't even know how a sniper rifle works.

     

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    roderick (profile), May 21st, 2013 @ 8:24pm

    Re:

    "Why worthless? Does music need to turn savages into princes for music to have any value?

    Not impossible in the same way it's not impossible for a beautiful work of art to inspire a person to kill. That's nowhere near likely enough for concern."
    Worthless if you consider what Grossman argued to be worthless. Face the music (pun intended), if you honestly believe that the arts have value to the moral and intellectual development of a person, then equally valid would be violent entertainment, especially the interactive kind. Critics like you and the Hollywood types want to have it your way: When someone does something good because of the creative arts, you have no problems putting on false modesty and spew flowery rhetoric on how much you contribute to humanity. But when someone does something bad because of the products that came from those same creative minds, you are equally quick to disassociate the human mind from your products and the same ability to influence.

    "That's right. The irony is nevertheless plain to see."
    The irony that I see so far is that those who have never read and think about what Grossman wrote have no problems criticizing him and his work.

    "The only difference appears to be that killing in times of war is somehow perceived to be legitimate regardless of the motives for whichever side you're on, and that the role of psychologists like Grossman is to help young cadets come to grips with the emotional consequences of such a necessary act."
    You do not need to go to war. Look at your own paramilitary peacekeeping forces: the local police. They have the authority to openly bear arms and to kill if necessary in belief of a higher cause. Just like the military does. The common theme here is that both the police and the military are controlled environments in training adults on how and when to kill. They do it in virtual as well as real world conditions. They talk with their veterans, especially those who had to take human lives in the course of their duties, on what it feels like to kill and the emotional toll upon a person after the act.

    The creative community glorifies killing, as in making the act enjoyable for the person, at least in the virtual world. The police and military forces do not have that luxury, if anything, they discourages such mentality, because they know that what they learned in training (virtual) they may have to do it in the real world.

    "You think Grossman would have a bigger problem with that than with fictional violence."
    This is where you and critics like you are wrong. The human mind is the source of our problems and solutions. Anything that influences the mind to solve problems and create solutions deserves scrutiny.

    I was in Kuwait City after we booted out the Iraqi Army. I saw the results of what one person did to another, especially to women, and wondered what were in their minds before they did those things and while they were doing those things. I look at the violent video games we have today and cannot help but seriously wonder if Grossman may have understated the effects of uncontrolled provocation of passions in a human mind, especially when the entertainment is interactive like games instead of passive reception from watching movies.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 21st, 2013 @ 8:48pm

    Re: Re:

    All those words and not one bit of evidence for the claim that violent media consumption leads to violent behavior in real life.

     

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    roderick (profile), May 22nd, 2013 @ 1:50am

    Re:

    Then you better admit that there is no evidence that the creative arts 'soothe the savage breast', that musicians and artists are grossly overpaid, and that we cannot persuade anyone to do anything.

     

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    Anonymous, May 22nd, 2013 @ 3:54am

    Re: Re:

    Dude, you said breast. Huh-huh-huh...

     

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    roderick (profile), May 22nd, 2013 @ 4:12am

    Grossman On Violent Entertainment

    What this mean is that unless anyone can prove a direct causal link, we cannot say that militant Islam had anything to do with Sept 11, 2001. For all we know, it could have been a brain infection that compelled 19 Muslims to commit suicide via crashing airliners into tall buildings.

    Religions have nothing to do with good and evil acts. People who are associated with religions often have unexplained sudden compulsion to give some of their monies away or kill others for no reasons.

    Charles Manson and other notorious murderers should be excused since we do not know what went thru their minds and are forbidden to speculate on the intangible influential factors that made possible their deeds.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 23rd, 2013 @ 2:38pm

    Re: Ironic considering his career

    “There is a generation of vicious, vicious killers out there,” he told his audience. “The video games are their trainers. They’ve been playing Grand Theft Auto every spare moment since they were six years old.”

    “There is a generation of vicious, vicious killers out there,” ... “The military are their trainers. They’ve been trained to kill every spare moment since they were eighteen years old.”

    Fixed that for Lt. Col. Dave Grossman.
    Note: I am NOT anti-military, I fully support the troops and the sacrifices they make. Just pointing out the hypocrisy in the Lt. Col.'s statements.

     

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    roderick (profile), May 23rd, 2013 @ 10:03pm

    Re: Re: Ironic considering his career

    No. The real hypocrisy here is the praise of one expression of art as a valid influence on the human mind while equally denying another expression.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jun 5th, 2013 @ 4:42am

    Grossman on Violence

    This stance is disappointing to me. LT. COL. Grossman had done such a great job doing real research on violence and killing (in the military/police walk of life) and now he's just jumped ship. Guess he just wanted to get his name out to everyone as opposed to just individuals in the military, police force, and psychologists, but couldn't he have actually done real research instead of just trying the scare tactic approach?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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