Copyright Lobby: The Public Has 'No Place In Policy Discussions'

from the don't-list-to-them,-they're-just-the-public dept

“To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts.” That is the purpose of Article 1, Section 8, Clause 8 of the Constitution, which is sometimes referred to as the “copyright clause” (or “the patent clause”), which enables both areas of law to be created via Congress. It’s also the part that is most often ignored. As we’ve discussed, the whole purpose of this clause is to make it clear that the public are the sole stakeholders when it comes to proper policy making decisions regarding these laws. However, with this new push for comprehensive copyright reform, it appears that the copyright lobby is already working on ways to make sure that the public is marginalized in the discussion.

We’ve got two recent examples from the “Copyright Alliance,” a DC-based lobbying shop put together by copyright maximalists (with the help of super right wing interests who normally don’t link up with Hollywood on much), who are seeking to spin the debate in their favor with a lot of bluster and propaganda, often trying to demonize and/or marginalize the public’s role in this debate. First up is an op-ed piece, in which the Copyright Alliance argues first that any new copyright reform must focus on maximalist principles, whether or not they make any sense. And then it digs in against the public, arguing that their voice shouldn’t count for much because, apparently, they’re so easily manipulated.

Those skeptical of copyright protection have expended a lot of energy to redefine its language and revise its history. Calls for lessening copyright protections are far too often accompanied by heated rhetoric. Appealing to emotions may be a great way to drum up signatures for online petitions, but has no place in policy discussions. Finally, it is not hard to find examples of those who propose dramatic changes without understanding the business realities of how creative individuals and industries operate.

Let’s unpack that a bit. Each sentence is ridiculous in its own special way. If we are to look at the history of the copyright debate, one side and one side alone, has focused on “redefining its language and revising its history” and that would be the maximalists. In fact, there’s an entire book that details exactly how the copyright maximalists have continually changed the language of copyright and revised its history. Copyright turned from a very narrowly focused concept, which was designed to encourage the spread of learning and knowledge, to something entirely different. A “limited monopoly” (as the framers called it) was turned into boundlessly vague “intellectual property.” The act of “infringement” was turned into “theft and stealing.” People who incidentally infringed on copyrights were describes as “pirates.” The law was expanded and expanded because of moral panic after moral panic.

As for “heated rhetoric,” we’ve been told over and over again that if we don’t expand protections and kill of technologies, “the creative industries will die,” despite no evidence to support that. Technologies which have helped to expand the industry, to create new ways to create, to promote, to distribute and to monetize were seen as the enemy because the powers-that-be did not control them. This is why the VCR was called “the Boston strangler of the movie industry” by the MPAA’s Jack Valenti. I’m sorry, but the idea that those of us skeptical of today’s copyright laws are the ones redefining the language or history is simply a laughably false claim.

But the really disturbing part is the next line. The claim that the public speaking out, such as via petitions or through various actions in which they contact politicians, should be ignored because it has “no place in policy discussions” is really just downright insulting. We know that, in the wake of SOPA, the copyright lobby has spent plenty of effort pretending that the public really didn’t speak out, or that, if they did, it was only because they were stupid and deluded. But that should be seen for what it rightfully is: an insulting way of dismissing the public’s interest in a law that is for the public’s benefit.

The copyright lobby is scared to death that the public might actually speak up on its own behalf, because that would ruin the scam it’s been running for quite some time.

In another piece by the same Copyright Alliance group, in response to the good ruling in the Kirtsaeng case, the alliance lashes out at public interest groups Public Knowledge and others for supposedly deluding the public:

Supporters of Kirtsaeng, including companies like eBay and groups such as Public Knowledge, have played an aggressive role in warping the public’s understanding of the anti-arbitrage provisions of the Copyright Act and the benefits of market differentiation. Behind the veil of the Owners Rights Initiative, they perpetuated a series of falsehoods; these sweeping generalizations mischaracterize the impact of Kirtsaeng, generally attempting to recast a case limited in scope as an issue that will concern all individual resellers of goods.

The entire article is full of “redefinition” and “revising of history” — to the ridiculous point of suggesting that the US hasn’t recognized first sale rights on foreign goods for decades (a laughably false claim). But in the paragraph quoted here, you see its true contempt for the public. Apparently the public is simply too stupid to understand copyright law and is easily led astray by groups like Public Knowledge.

Taken together, you see both the fear and outright contempt that the copyright lobby has for the public. To them, the public are interfering with “the industry’s rights” and are apparently stupid, gross and easily led astray and into mob behavior. I’m guessing that some of this is just PTSD following the lobbyists getting their clocks cleaned in the SOPA fight — through cognitive dissonance, they’ve determined the only plausible explanation is that the public was duped.

But some of us believe that copyright law is supposed to be used in the public interest, and if that’s the case, we should recognize that the public is the stakeholder who matters. To claim they should “have no place in policy discussions” isn’t just wrong, but it’s insulting. We should be welcoming the public into these discussions as much as possible — not just because they are the key stakeholders here, but (more importantly) because if the Copyright Alliance actually wants a law the public respects, it might want to try including them in the process this time around. That its kneejerk reaction is to insult, demean and exclude the public gives a pretty clear indication where they would like this debate to go.

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Comments on “Copyright Lobby: The Public Has 'No Place In Policy Discussions'”

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281 Comments
Ninja (profile) says:

That its kneejerk reaction is to insult, demean and exclude the public gives a pretty clear indication where they would like this debate to go.

The troll ramp up here in TD speaks volumes too. And I’m betting this is happening in every single group/author that is standing for the public rights and interests are seeing similar things in their forums or whatever.

And honestly it is good. If they fear, smear, insult us all then it means we are achieving decent success and influence in those topics where we should be the de facto main stakeholders.

I don’t expect anything good to come out of this reform in the US despite of any public pressure (so anything good will be a surprise for me). Nobody is advocating no copyrights as they seem to imply every time. People want a sane, sensible system that can protect the artists without destroying the public domain and criminalizing socially accepted behavior. How hard is that?

Greevar (profile) says:

Re: Re:

I’m advocating no copyrights and it doesn’t mean they lose their right to express themselves as the article from “The Hill” claims. The first amendment protects freedom of expression, not copyright. Quite the opposite. It also doesn’t mean they lose the ability to be profitable either, as they claim. Both points are a load of horse honky; there are plenty of viable and successful business models that don’t require any copyright-like control over the dissemination of works.

The cold truth is, with the technology we have, copyright is impossible to enforce and impossible to justify. The computer I’m writing this comment on has the power to access every creative work ever published in a digital format and no law will ever change that fact. Furthermore, that technology will only get more efficient and more robust in the task of sharing and access of content regardless of what the law says about it.

Due to that fact, there is no such thing as a “sane” copyright law because enforcement requires that you violate basic civil rights of privacy and free speech to achieve it. This isn’t like other laws such as murder or theft. Those crimes don’t have an alternative strategy that nullifies their negative impact on those it affects (unless you can resurrect the dead and have matter replicators like Star Trek), but copyright does. Shift your revenue stream away from selling access to copies and infringement becomes inconsequential. No matter what adjustments to copyright are made, technology can and will always bypass it all.

The whole reason the copyright industry is throwing a fit over these issues is because the means of production is shifting from the hands of the multinational corporations, to the hands of common individuals. Now every goon with a PC can be a producer of quality content, so long as they have the necessary talent and time. Smosh is the most viewed channel on YouTube and they started with little more than two guys with a camera and an overabundance of imagination. The only way they can stop this, is if they can “own” the means to create content, but the genie is already out of the bottle. So it stands to reason that they need to adapt and we need to get rid of copyright because it stifles innovation.

Ninja (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

I believe that if you focus and narrow on commercial exploitation it’s very feasible. Emphasis on narrow. But I will agree that as things are now maybe getting rid of it altogether may be the only way out.

Still I believe, agree and support copyrights as they should be. I’m talking about people getting stuff produced by others and blatantly selling and profiting DIRECTLY over it. Just providing means for people to share is not profiting from what’s shared. I believe there are many out there who would love to actually do what the MAFIAA acuses the pirates of doing: rip off the artists and actually “steal” (MAFIAA semantics) money from artists, developers and so on. But using Gigaton bombs to tackle a gang in some back alley in New York is not gonna help in any way.

Greevar (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Re:

But the thing is, the technology that makes copyright toothless also makes copyright unnecessary because the internet is the most anarchistic distribution medium and computers enable universal accessibility to creative tools that were impossible twenty years ago. When the tools to be a creative force in culture becomes available to any and all people, it dissolves any power of exclusivity that copyright used to grant. It’s cultural socialism.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

“The troll ramp up here in TD speaks volumes too. And I’m betting this is happening in every single group/author that is standing for the public rights and interests are seeing similar things in their forums or whatever.”

And maximalists’ blogs either don’t allow comments at all or censor opinions different from their own.

Josh in CharlotteNC (profile) says:

Projection

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Both the op-ed and other piece are full of psychological projection.

Anyone who looks critically at the statements can easily see through them. They’re basically saying “We can’t admit that we’ve distorted the truth for deacdes, so any pushback against our version of the truth is distorting.” And “We can’t admit that all of our arguments are emotional or disputes about business model and technological disruption, so any attempt to argue against our irrationalities doesn’t belong in a public debate.”

Chosen Reject (profile) says:

Re: Projection

Appealing to emotions may be a great way to drum up signatures for online petitions, but has no place in policy discussions

I think Mike read the above slightly wrong, even though I do believe the way Mike read it is the way the copymites feel. However, what they really said isn’t any better. They are saying that appeals to emotion shouldn’t have no place in this discussion. I’d agree. So it’d be nice then if they’d stop telling us to worry about corn farmers, the little guys, the jobs of grocers, etc, when they have no evidence (much less proof) that copyright law is needed to help those groups.

Appeal to emotion is wrong in policy discussions. It’d sure be nice if they stopped using it. Psychological projection indeed.

Duke (profile) says:

Appealing to emotions may be a great way to drum up signatures for online petitions, but has no place in policy discussions.

From my experience of working in policy (and opposing copyright maximalists), I agree, and wish we *could* eliminate emotional appeals from legal or policy debates.

I’m perfectly happy to agree not to keep spouting out rhetorical nonsense focused on eliciting emotional reactions if they will do so as well. I have a feeling I know which one of us will be hit harder…

out_of_the_blue says:

TITLE IS TOTAL FABRICATION BY MIKE.

Emphasis added exposes his PHONY premise:
Appealing to emotions may be a great way to drum up signatures for online petitions, but has no place in policy discussions.”

Take a loopy tour of Techdirt.com! You always end up same place!
http://techdirt.com/
Where Mike “supports copyright” but always overlooks or excuses piracy.
04:54:00[f-917-0]

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: TITLE IS TOTAL FABRICATION BY MIKE.

no, ootb is saying that the quoted paragraph means something other than what is implied by the article. Specifically, the paragraph means that decisions should be taken on the facts, not appeals to emotion. Or, in other words, ignore the rhetoric spewed out by both sides. (for example, copyright has often been portrayed as only protecting big companies- its not actually true (I’m afraid I can only back it up with personal experience) but it’s just as bad as the people who want copyright extended.)

Anonymous Coward says:

It sounds to me like they’ve just openly declared war on the people.

So now we’ll see if the government sides with or against the people they’re supposed to be representing.

An organization that takes and survives on money from the people who is so against the people shouldn’t be allowed to continue to exist.

Violated (profile) says:

Re: Re:

War was declared long ago when Napster started giving away all that music that did not belong to them. So this is simply the latest battle after a long line of battles.

The Copyight side is getting quite fearful these days when they are aware that public opposition can strike down their proposed laws. Indeed they are now very worried when those in Politics are now starting to hear what the public are saying.

I cannot be more happy. Now lets go rewrite copyright into what it should be.

Anonymous Coward says:

They may not like the public, but the public also don’t like to have their own rights eroded specially the right to own stuff, which most people understand perfectly.

If you own something nobody should be able to tell you what to do with your own damn property is that simple, something copyright and patents takes away, in the case of copyright it goes to the realm of absurdity.

That Anonymous Coward (profile) says:

The public has no place in this, except that little over looked line where copyright is supposed to benefit the people.

So far the benefits we’ve gotten…
– Technology we can’t control
– Paying full price for things we can’t own
– A public domain bereft of content
– Laws and rules putting corporations first
– The right to subsidize industries that create so much value, but still need handouts
– Hollywood accounting
– Rules that apply to the public, but when corporations violate those rules they get special treatment

There is more, but I’m to angry to list them all

JEDIDIAH says:

Re: Let's not forget outsourcing...

Hollywood is now decimating it’s own talent pool by doing to special effects artists what other American corporation has being doing to it’s IT staff for years. Award winning special effects studios are closing en masse because the work is being farmed to the lowest bidder offshore.

There was an LA Times article about it just today.

The MPAA screws their talent just like the RIAA does.

teka (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Let's not forget outsourcing...

But Hollywood is still claiming they need special laws, they need special help, they need new governmental task forces with Fuckin’ Eagle emblems to save them from being forced to lay off American workers, like those FX crews (and the place where they buy morning bagels, and the place that sells them office chairs and masking tape)

They have been getting their way with laws and enforcements and having record-breaking box office turnouts year after year.. but are still quietly snuffing out the projects and sending the work overseas.

Things get too blatantly offensive when they get to have everything their own way.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Re:

DNS blocking: ICE Domain seizures.
Ability to force companies to try to deny existence of site:
http://torrentfreak.com/new-york-public-library-blocks-the-pirate-bay-and-torrentfreak-130320/ (It’s a stretch, but does happen to some extent)
Ability to force companies to stop working with a site: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/24/google-settles-pharmacy-ad-probe_n_935183.html

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Re:

Bullshit. You have SOPA right now (plus six strikes). The only thing missing is judicial oversight. My internet works fine.

DNS blocking? Nope.

I know you enjoy clinging to portions of SOPA that were discarded.

Ability to force companies to try to deny existence of site? Nope.

Search engine demoting will have much the same effect

Ability to force companies to stop working with a site? Nope.

Voluntary agreements with payment processors and ad networks is ramping up and without the need to drag it through court, will probably end up more widespread without having to offer a judicial standard of proof.

What are you talking about?

Sorry it’s unclear to you. But hey, if you’re happy- so am I. Things a far better now than pre-SOPA. Particularly with the rise of six strikes.

Funny that you try to diminish the impact of these SOPA-like industry agreements, after devoting so much time to decrying them when they were announced. Why the change of heart?

Mike Masnick (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Re:

I know you enjoy clinging to portions of SOPA that were discarded.

“Discarded” after the protest day when everyone already knew the bill was done — and not actually “discarded.” Leahy just said he’s put off implementation until a study had been done. Don’t lie. I thought you and your friends were only going to deal in facts now.

Search engine demoting will have much the same effect

Wait, last week weren’t you bitching about how they weren’t demoting enough? Search engine demotions are not what was in SOPA and pretending otherwise shows you don’t even understand how search engines work or why the MPAA and RIAA are still complaining. Besides, just one search engine is doing the demoting.

Voluntary agreements with payment processors and ad networks is ramping up and without the need to drag it through court, will probably end up more widespread without having to offer a judicial standard of proof.

We shall see…

Sorry it’s unclear to you. But hey, if you’re happy- so am I. Things a far better now than pre-SOPA. Particularly with the rise of six strikes.

Saying that what we have today is not SOPA is not the same as saying that I like the bad policies you and your buddies are stupidly cheering over. Everything’s black and white for some ignorant folks, huh?

Funny that you try to diminish the impact of these SOPA-like industry agreements, after devoting so much time to decrying them when they were announced. Why the change of heart?

No change of heart. Those agreements are stupid and damaging, but not nearly as damaging as your pet project. But, nice attempt at saving face. Are you really so emasculated by the fact that some nerds beat you that you can’t admit your own ignorance?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Re:

You really don’t get it, do you? Legislation is but one component. SOPA was a frontal assault. It didn’t work. No one on my side was ready to hang themselves over it. We simply moved on to other approaches to dealing with the issue. Some you’ve seen, others you will see. The SOPA defeat was a big lesson to traditional lobbyists and believe it or not, they’re mostly really smart guys deeply entrenched in the political machine. They learn fast and adapt.

Politics is mostly an inside game. And you guys still exist at the margins. That’s going to take a long time and a lot of money to change. And by then, even if it ever happens, it will be too late. It is nearly impossible to undo something that is already entrenched and fiercely guarded by savvy, well-monied players.

And the possible saviors on your side are already being co-opted by being brought into the “content club” and sharing in the wealth of this vast market. The price of entry is pretty clear and there are signs of it paying off already.

So savor your victory, you earned. Hopefully you’ll find some comfort reliving your brief glory as things continue to spin out of your influence.

Mike Masnick (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Re:

Politics is mostly an inside game.

Indeed. Technology, however, is not. When you figure that out, we’ll be waiting for you.

And the possible saviors on your side are already being co-opted by being brought into the “content club” and sharing in the wealth of this vast market. The price of entry is pretty clear and there are signs of it paying off already.

Only if you believe this was a fight between Google and Hollywood. Keep believing that, though. It makes things easier to have you so distracted.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6 Re:

“Politics is mostly an inside game.”

Indeed. Technology, however, is not. When you figure that out, we’ll be waiting for you.

I’m well aware. Go ahead an continue playing checkers, while we’re playing chess. I generally hear how that is working for you in your daily screeds.

“And the possible saviors on your side are already being co-opted by being brought into the “content club” and sharing in the wealth of this vast market. The price of entry is pretty clear and there are signs of it paying off already.”

Only if you believe this was a fight between Google and Hollywood. Keep believing that, though. It makes things easier to have you so distracted.

Google is already on the sidelines. They see the content dollars signs dancing before their eyes. They’re well down the road from adversary to ally. No one else has the wherewithal. Who will put up the kind of money and possesses the expertise to win the battle? EFF? Public Knowledge? Techdirt? Demand Progress?

Copyright reform in the direction you want is not exactly an Arab Spring issue to most. Granted, it is for a small number of shithouse anarchists, tenured law professors and professional malcontents- but no one with the gravitas to actually win is even in the game. So continue to author your screeds and rail against the injustice. No one that matters to the outcome is even listening.

Ninja (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 Re:

LoL, the sense of entitlement is tingling! If Google actually starts delivering crappy service because they give in to all the MAFIAA’s whims (hint: just because they gave you some cand it doesn’t mean they love or are in under your control) people will simply move on. There’s plenty of competition 😉

Ninja (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9 Re:

Google doesn’t offer content, it offers platforms that are convenient, flexible and widely available. If they chose to follow all the MAFIAA’s whims they’d be scanning e-mails for ‘infringing’ mp3, pro-actively filtering stuff and so on. If they were amused by the MAFIAA dollars. I’d say they just gave in here and there to stop with some annoyance or save money that would go to litigation. If you push too hard Google will become your enemy 😉

Josh in CharlotteNC (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 Re:

Who will put up the kind of money and possesses the expertise to win the battle? EFF? Public Knowledge? Techdirt? Demand Progress?

How’d you miss the CATO Institute? Unless I’m mistaken (I’m not), we just had Jim Harper on TD yesterday. Oh, but he doesn’t have any influence in DC, does he?

Mike Masnick (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 Re:

Didn’t take Masnick long to violate your privacy and look at your IP, did it?

If I had, it wouldnt’ be a violation of privacy, because that’s data that we are clearly allowed to collect and view.

Except I didn’t. Some of you (including you) have very distinct writing styles and it’s easy to know what regular clueless AC is what regular clueless AC without looking at anything.

Facts: not your strong suit.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:12 Re:

Death in a recent post? Really? Tell you what, if this was about the whole “we know where you live” joke, that was me. And I live in a country several oceans from where you are.

If this is the sort of thing that hits a nerve for you, small wonder people are horrified that you aim to be in charge of deciding technological policy for everyone else.

Gwiz (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 Re:

Google is already on the sidelines. They see the content dollars signs dancing before their eyes. They’re well down the road from adversary to ally.

And then Google will lose it’s relevance to the internet community. As soon as their “Don’t be evil” mantra gets tarnished enough, they will end up as irrelevant as AOL and Alta Vista. Seems like a stupid move for Google to me, but, c’est la vie!

Though I have to say, it’s still pretty funny that you think Google was the big dog in the SOPA fight and are still marginalizing the millions of citizens who vocalized their opposition.

No one else has the wherewithal. Who will put up the kind of money and possesses the expertise to win the battle? EFF? Public Knowledge? Techdirt? Demand Progress?

Aren’t those the same groups who mobilized the public against SOPA? Are you really thinking it couldn’t happen again? When you have the hearts and minds of millions on your side of an issue, is the inequity of the lobbying dollars really all that important?

No one else has the wherewithal. Who will put up the kind of money and possesses the expertise to win the battle? EFF? Public Knowledge? Techdirt? Demand Progress?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8 Re:

Do you not understand that there will never be another frontal assault like SOPA? As in; not ever. Please feel free to gear up for such a battle.

As you’ve already seen with the various industry agreements, you’ll be shadow boxing. You won’t see it until it’s too late. Any legislative action will be minor tweaks and amendments that will be part of larger packages that are fairly unassailable. Or agency enforcement policy. Or trade agreements. Or diplomatic influence. There are hundreds of ways to accomplish the same goals without having a street fight. And few, if any are subject to defeat by FUD-whipping the masses.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:12 Re:

So which is it Masnick? If copyright initiatives are feckless and every attempt at strengthening has fallen face first; what’s with all of your FUD-filled screeds and dire warnings than fill the pages of your blog?

You invested tons of pages and comments on six strikes, industry initiatives, CFAA, CISPA and IsoHunt. Are you now suggesting those are part of “everything has gone against them lately”? What victories are you claiming?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:12 Re:

To be fair, it’s all the maximalists have left. Everything has gone against them lately, and the old strategies are proving less and less fruitful. So it’s all out FUD before they collapse under the weight of their own hypocrisy and failed logic.

This from the guy who chose to lie about what the Copyright Alliance said. They didn’t say that the public has no place in policy discussion, and you know it. Only a very sad and desperate man would publish such lies. Way to keep yourself on the margin, Mike.

Gwiz (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9 Re:

There are hundreds of ways to accomplish the same goals without having a street fight. And few, if any are subject to defeat by FUD-whipping the masses.

Nice. Your Mother must be so proud.

You are basically saying: “If we can’t get what we want by being upfront with the public, we’ll just go behind their backs and make slimy backroom deals anyways”

How do you sleep at night? Your mattresses of cash must have magical properties that alleviate your scruples.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10 Re:

Fuck you and your moralizing. I break no laws and I play to win. There’d be no need for any of this were it not for entitled, freeloading scumbags who think that they’re free to take the creative output of others without compensation. You brought this on yourselves, so quit whining.

Gwiz (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11 Re:

There’d be no need for any of this were it not for entitled, freeloading scumbags who think that they’re free to take the creative output of others without compensation.

I’m not convinced there is a need for this at all, personally.

Movie studios continue to make record profits each year. Book authors are selling Ebooks for the same prices as dead-tree versions, without the overhead of actually producing printed copies. Music has seen a redistribution of wealth where we are now seeing more more artists being able to make a decent living then ever before. Same thing happening with newsprint – more opportunities for reporters than ever in history.

This has more to do with the legacy gatekeepers freaking out over some new technology and thinking they need to be “protected” from it instead of embracing it and profiting in the long run.

Bottom line: Stopping piracy will not increase sales. Bringing back the public’s respect for copyright and offering up the services the public wants will. Ratcheting up copyright enforcement is about the worse thing to do, yet here we are.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11 Re:

Fuck you and your moralizing

Hmm, so you know that what the copyright lobby is pushing for does not benefit the public. Yet you are making excuses for the copyright lobby and are calling yourself a winner. Then I guess you can’t be an author or composer.

Is it really your goal in life to “win” at the expense of the public? I wouldn’t be happy if I had to “explain” these “wins” to my partner, children, family members, colleagues or neighbors. I’d just be embarresed and ashamed.

Niall (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11 Re:

You could have said all this as a Southern slave-holder to a northern anti-slaver and said the identical thing with as much sliminess and inhumanity.

When the laws are immoral and wrong (and possibly actually unConstitutional) and support companies who regularly screw those who produce the work they peddle and try to control, who are you to whine about being called out on your amorality?

art guerrilla (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 Re:

gonna be a really big surprise to the puppetmasters when the sheeple finally bear the fangs…

ain’t gonna be pretty…

you know why ? ? ?
’cause of what kennedy said: (paraphrasing) when you make dissent impossible, you make revolution inevitable…

we are getting well on into the ‘inevitable’ stage, and there ain’t no spider hole big enough to hide all the korporate lackeys due comeuppance…

the kock bros and bush klavern, etc may have multi-thousand acre kompounds abroad, and merc armies at their disposal, but all the bootlicks will be left behind; they will be easy pickins’…

art guerrilla
aka ann archy
eof

Josh in CharlotteNC (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Re:

You still think this is about Google. Hilarious.

Wake up. We killed SOPA. We killed ACTA. Until those, you had never lost a fight. Sure, we won’t win everything, but we’ll kill off enough bad legislation to make it risky for your bought congresscritters to keep proposing bills. They care about votes more than money, and its our votes they want. We’ll shame enough large companies (we’ll even fight Google when we need to) to make it risky going along with your voluntary agreements. Those companies want money, and its our money that we can choose who to give it to.

The problem with your well-monied idea of corporatocracy and cronyism is that we’re not building a competing well-monied opponent to slug it out with you in the halls of Washington. We’re attacking the source of your money. We’re routing around your long built infrastructure. We’re not fighting “fair” in a way you understand. And you fundamentally don’t understand the distributed, headless opponent that we are.

But thanks for the look into how you see government. I’m sure the founding fathers would respect you.

Josh in CharlotteNC (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 Re:

Search engine demotion,

I’m free to use other search engines not buying into your Koolaid.

payment processor and ad network

There’s other competition there, too. And Bitcoin is a thing now, if you haven’t heard.

six strikes

Perfectly happy with my list of dozens of VPNs that don’t keep logs, thanks.

Your move.

Josh in CharlotteNC (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9 Re:

How many of the soft middle will migrate to Bitcoin? How many will pay for a VPN?

You don’t get it. P2P existed before Napster. Napster made it easy – but when Napster was killed, most of those using it didn’t start throwing money your way, they moved to other services that may have been harder to use at first, but quickly adapted to get easy.

Six strikes is already turning VPNs mainstream. A year ago, you heard no one but techies and remote business users talking about them. They’re easier to use now. There are more available. And cheaper than they used to be – both from competition and lower bandwidth/server costs.

As to your ad-homs?
Soulless? I’m an atheist, never claimed to have a soul.
Thieving? I infringe copyright, sure. Made no secret of that. Give me a reason to buy. Haven’t infringed on any copyrighted music in months, though. Offer me a convenient service, with the features I want, at a reasonable price and I’ll pay.
Freeloader? I’m listening to music right now on Spotify. I pay $10 a month for it. $120 a year. That’s more than I spent when I was in my 20s on music, because services weren’t available that didn’t suck. Give me a Spotify-like service for video and I’ll throw money at you. Give me a service I can download high quality movies and episodic shows from that are not encumbered with DRM, available when they release in theaters and TV, and available at reasonable prices and I’ll throw money at you. When you want my money, give me a reason to give it to you that doesn’t involve threats. Until then, I’ll give it to people offering useful services that don’t suck.

Rikuo says:

Re: Re: Re:9 Re:

“Enforcement will never touch soulless, thieving freeloaders such as yourself. “

Wow, no wonder any retail initiatives your side tries crash and burn, with that attitude. I can see you in a store, or doing an online chat with a potential customer, and you cursing their soul because they haven’t bought, and even after they have bought.

JMT says:

Re: Re: Re:9 Re:

“Enforcement will never touch soulless, thieving freeloaders such as yourself.”

Note that this person is acting on behalf of large, soulless, morally bankrupt corporations who claim to represent artists. This is a the language of a corporate thug, not actual creative artists. The dollar we are accused us of “stealing” was not taken out of the pocket of an artist, but from someone who gives as little as practically possible to those artists. So these insults will not illicit guilt or shame or behavioural change or one penny of extra income, because these companies deserve none of that.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Re:

You and your ilk are going to cheerfully grind the worlds economy in to lawsuits and eventual loss of the right of first sale. One day all of this will dawn on you but it will be too late and the US will be just like France and the UK, a legal mess of confused, bribed politicians and a mass of copyright lawsuits, with no real gains in industry to be had. All due to the fear of copyright’s mantra of “It’s mine and you can’t have it!!”. And it will be the fault of the lawyers and the copyright industry.

Sure, be a troll on TD and revel in your Pyrrhic victories. You can continue to screw the public and bribe our useless politicians. But the end result is the same, copyright is slowly killing innovation in the US and around the world. The older I get and the more informed I become, the more I want the people to regain control of the government. I for one would cheerfully punt copyright from existence.

If for nothing else, I applaud the Chinese for beating the copyright cartel at it’s own game. Perhaps that will be the stick that will wake up you guys. Until then, please be so kind as to Die In a Fire.

Gwiz (profile) says:

Re: Re:

SOPA will break the Internet. Justin Bieber will go to prison. SOPA will shut down Facebook an YouTube….

Well, well. Looky who is trying to revise history as we speak…

– The original portions of SOPA/PIPA (which were removed early on) that mucked with the DNS system would have made the internet less secure. The very people who created the DNS voiced these exact concerns.

– No one was saying Bieber would go to jail. They were saying that future Justin Beibers would if they leveraged other peoples songs on YouTube like he did.

– No one was saying that SOPA would shut down Facebook or YouTube. They were saying that similar new start-ups would never have a chance to get off of the ground.

That said, please continue to underestimated the internet public and write-off their opinions as “brainwashing” by Google. That will only serve to make it easier to undermine your future endeavors.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re: Re:

never with an acknowledgment that SOPA did not apply to domestic websites

That’s because there were no such limits and many of the provisions in SOPA would have affected domestic websites. Altering the private right of action provisions to apply only to foreign sites doesn’t mean nothing in SOPA would have applied to domestic sites.

Gwiz (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Re:

I’ll never underestimate how gullible and easily misled the masses are.

If that really bothers you, should I then assume that you also advocate for open and transparent negotiations concerning copyright laws going forward?

If there are no secret backroom deals and everyone knows all the facts upfront, nobody can be misled, right?

Gwiz (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Re:

You have a copy of the draft legislation. Go sign a petition.

Or call and mail your congressperson. Or black out your own website in protest or…..wait…..that is exactly what happened with SOPA, isn’t it?

And yet you are here still bitching about the “misled masses” who read the draft legislation and voiced their opposition to it? What gives?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Re:

SOPA, for all intents and purpose is implemented. All without any judicial oversight. Six strikes is in place. The current judicial picture is bright and CISPA and CFAA reform looks promising. What is there to be pissed off about? I’m not the one moaning day-after-day about the state of copyright. That would be you.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6 Re:

So, if SOPA “for all intents and purposes is implemented”, exactly why was there the need for such a big campaign to have it put in publicly, and the massive bout of pissing and moaning after it passed, when all along you were going to give everyone the finger and secretly pass it in anyway?

Mike Masnick (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Re:

Those statements were precisely the ones used. Even after DNS blocking was removed and never with an acknowledgment that SOPA did not apply to domestic websites.

1. Until the manager’s amendment, the private right of action (section 103) absolutely did target domestic sites as well.

2. Even with foreign sites being targeted, SOPA still applied to domestic sites, in that they would still have to comply with orders against foreign sites, doing things like barring links, payments, etc. And that would very much impact domestic sites.

3. No one ever said that DNS blocking would KILL the internet, but that it would break important pieces of how the internet worked, such as DNSsec.

4. And this is exactly why no one trusts your side on this debate. You have no problem trying to rewrite history with lies.

You should have just ‘fessed up that SOPA was a bad bill that you guys wrote without understanding how technology works. People would have forgiven you. But now… as you continue to lie… well, tough to take you seriously.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

You’re not really trying to argue that everyone that was against SOPA was misinformed are you? It’s like you’re trying to avoid addressing any of the legitimate criticism by making inane observations like a few misguided individuals that interpreted using Justin Bieber as a metaphor for a literal fear.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re: Re:

I don’t think you have any idea what ‘the majoirty’ were and you’re just making it up on the spot to make yourself feal better and I don’t think you’re following at all what that sentence you quoted means. Your observation that a few misguided individuals took the ‘free Justin Beiber’ campaign literally instead of understanding it was a figurative example of a real issue was inane, not the campaign itself.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

SOPA will break the Internet. Justin Bieber will go to prison. SOPA will shut down Facebook an YouTube….

And don’t forget Masnick’s FUD du jour that even talking to a 12-year-old about setting up a Facebook page will land you in jail for years. Years! http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130324/14342822435/rather-than-fix-cfaa-house-judiciary-committee-planning-to-make-it-worse-way-worse.shtml

Violated (profile) says:

Re: Re:

It is true that during the SOPA, PIPA and ACTA protests some hype was used simply because the larger public can get behind basic ideas better. I played rather a large hand in that myself and spread some beautiful concepts but I would not state that any of these claims were untrue.

I believe “shatter the Internet” was the correct term and we already see evidence of that happening.

Justin Bieber going to prison was a valid example based on the proposed law. He of course started his career by singing copyright protected songs and then uploading them to YouTube which then triggers that streaming felony concept law. They had some experts examine that one in detail. No Bieber would not have gone to prison but it could well have stopped others following his example.

If you want to see what SOPA could have done then go ask the owners of DaJaz1 and RojaDirecta. SOPA would have made it much worse though by closing their advertising revenue and financial accounts. In others words they want to completely destroy a business even before there is any justice to prove their innocence or guilt.

YouTube-like service are already being killed even without SOPA but to add SOPA would turn business rivalry into a bloodbath.

The Real Michael says:

What they’re arguing is that our opinions shouldn’t matter, but they’re obfuscating the actual reason. That being, the overwhelming majority of the public is opposed to IP expansionism. From blocking websites to censoring competition, throttling ISPs to suing people, often without due process, the negative effects of copyright have far outweighed any beneficial aspect.

“To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts” …yeah, at the public’s expense.

Anonymous Coward says:

the question to ask, then, is, when are the people going to have the chance and the balls to do something about this? the way things keep being changed and the Constitution keeps being shortened, things keep being changed, things keep being left out purposefully, by those that are interested in what they want only and not what it actually says in the Constitution, dont deserve to be part of a Democratic Society! the public is what copyright and patents were started for, why they came into existence, not for those who would stop everyone else from benefiting from and sharing information concerning various things. and as for the punishments that have been introduced ‘in the name of protecting copyrighted and patented items’, what a insult and disgrace!!

Anonymous Coward says:

First of all, thanks for linking to the fine work by the Copyright Alliance. No press is bad press, right?

“To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts.” That is the purpose of Article 1, Section 8, Clause 8 of the Constitution, which is sometimes referred to as the “copyright clause” (or “the patent clause”), which enables both areas of law to be created via Congress.

I love how you leave off the part of the Copyright Clause that says the way to promote the progress is to grant exclusive rights to authors. No doubt you’d erase that from the Constitution if you could. Best just to pretend it’s not there, right?

But the really disturbing part is the next line. The claim that the public speaking out, such as via petitions or through various actions in which they contact politicians, should be ignored because it has “no place in policy discussions” is really just downright insulting.

You’re being deliberately misleading, as per usual. The article doesn’t say that the public shouldn’t speak out on issues. It says that heated rhetoric and appeals to emotion–your specialty!–have no place in the debate. In other words, mindless bullshit like this very article aren’t helping. Congrats on proving their point–again!

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Re:

You see, this is why copyright maximalists fail. They try to get everyone to believe that copyright is what causes works to be created in the first place.

Why do they feel that way? Self-importance and arrogance.

Congress gave them a copyright monopoly privilege, something they were not obligated in anyway to do, taking away rights from the public in the process, and now they feel they deserve it. They don’t. They’ve abused these privileges for decades.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Re:

I think it’s an undeniable fact that copyright does incentivize the creation of new and better works. Not all works are created pursuant to this incentive, but the incentive nonetheless does substantial work. Again, what do the pirates fill up those hard drives with? It’s not kitten videos or 10,000 copies of “Sita Sings the Blues.” Talk to me about the death of copyright when the pirates stop needing the copyrighted stuff so badly that they’re willing to violate other people’s rights to get it. Then, maybe you’d have a point.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Re:

Doesn’t matter.

Your sentence begins with “undeniable fact”, which is wrong, since stuff was being created long before copywrite appeared. The fact stuff is made and copywrite exists does not prove copywrite incentivized creation, and there’s no proof of any connection between the two, only assumptions.

Death of copywrite would not stop the creation of things or the paying for things. This is a fact, as proven by many who do things for “free” without regard to copywrite and still make a living.

Pirates don’t need copywrited stuff, which is the real problem with your argument. They would get by making a million other random things which takes up 90% of their day, as opposed to the occasional mass pirated movie flick.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Re:

Your sentence begins with “undeniable fact”, which is wrong, since stuff was being created long before copywrite appeared. The fact stuff is made and copywrite exists does not prove copywrite incentivized creation, and there’s no proof of any connection between the two, only assumptions.

The fact that stuff is made without copyright does not negate the fact that stuff is also made because of copyright. It’s simply amazing to me that you guys deny that copyright actually incentivizes new works. The evidence is literally all around you. Just look at all those pirated movies on your hard drives. Each one the product of copyright. Mike never explicitly denies this, and I presume it’s because he knows it’s true. Only on Techdirt do incentives (copyright) not actually incentivize people while disincentives (infringement liabilities) do not disincentivize people. Amazing. Where does Mike find you guys?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6 Re:

And your proof these films would not be made without copywrite?

I mean lots of other countries with non-existant/weak copywrite schemes ALSO make popular movies.

I also don’t pirate movies, because I don’t like movies. I don’t pirate music either.

You also didn’t actually counter my point, just reiterated your own. There’s no actual evidence of a connection between creation and copywrite, just an assumption that it will incentivize it.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6 Re:

If copyright was revoked tomorrow, the copyright reliant industries would keep right on making new stuff.

Are you seriously arguing that Hollywood would stop making movies if they didn’t get to keep their monopoly? That musicians would stop writing music? That authors would stop writing books?

It’s absurd. Copyright is not needed to create. Humans create because that is what humans do! They are driven by the desire for creating stuff.

Let’s not forget where most copyright is now owned. By large multi-national corporations. Corporations with lots of money and power to buy laws that favor them over the benefit of the public. Who has had the money and power over the last several decades to lobby heavily for 16 different expansions of copyright? To continually press for lengthening terms, just as they are about to expire? Who aren’t satisfied with life plus 50 years and who have to go back for 20 more years? Who are never satisfied with any disruptive technology, up to and including launching lawsuits to try to get said technology stopped, and who staunchly believe we should have to ask permission from Congress before being allowed to innovate?

A single author or creator working on their own to make a living doing what they love to do may deserve their copyright privilege. The corporations at front and center of this debate are the ones who do not. They have abused this privilege for far too long.

Karl (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 Re:

Just look at all those pirated movies on your hard drives. Each one the product of copyright.

Just because they’re protected by copyright, does not mean they’re a “product of copyright.”

It does not mean that they would not have been produced without copyright, that copyright necessarily incentivizes their production, or that overall production would not have been higher without copyright (or with more limited copyright protections).

Here’s a talk that may shed light on the matter for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zL2FOrx41N0

Ninja (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Re:

I think it’s an undeniable fact that copyright does incentivize the creation of new and better works.

It is not undeniable. It’s completely disputable. I could say it’s an undeniable fact that creativity thrives IN SPITE OF copyright.

Not all works are created pursuant to this incentive, but the incentive nonetheless does substantial work.

The second part needs a citation that directly links copyright and creation. You see you keep telling piracy will kill creativity and yet it hasn’t done so, over 60 years after this bs started. Actually, the cultural output grew exponentially thanks to technologies you fight as if they were some horrid offspring from apocalypse and doomsday themselves.

Again, what do the pirates fill up those hard drives with? It’s not kitten videos or 10,000 copies of “Sita Sings the Blues.”

Any lousy computer comes with 1Tb+ nowadays. You seem to think only pirates need huge drives. You see I installed Diablo III, DC Universe and World of Warcraft (all of them legit) and they alone took 50Gb of my HDD. Any decent game nowadays legit or not uses 10Gb+. And I have over 30Gb of free legit music (mp3) and another 15 of lossless stuff (ripped from my CDs which is ironically illegal even though I own the media). Then there are tons of free High Definition content (one movie can go for over 20 Gb). And my camera produces 5Mb HD pictures (my pictures folder has over 15 Gb of HD movies and pics from my camera plus 10Gb of stuff from older cameras). Suddenly 1Tb seems small doesn’t it? I am a pirate. Proud to be. I have 10Tb of HDD, half of it acting as backup and media server of legit content.

Talk to me about the death of copyright when the pirates stop needing the copyrighted stuff so badly that they’re willing to violate other people’s rights to get it. Then, maybe you’d have a point.

Amusingly and interestingly a lot of us has switched to indie/free content. The MAFIAA should be afraid of that.

Karl (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Re:

Talk to me about the death of copyright when the pirates stop needing the copyrighted stuff so badly that they’re willing to violate other people’s rights to get it.

Oh, right, I forgot about that other appeal to emotion: “violating other people’s rights.”

Keep ’em coming! I’m sure there are more that I forgot.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Re:

So you’re arguing that greedy pirates aren’t violating other people’s rights? Good luck with that argument, Karl. I’m sure the TD faithful think it’s meaningful. Can I violate your rights? Do I get to decide unilaterally which of your rights are meaningful and worth respecting? Hmmm….

Karl (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 Re:

So you’re arguing that greedy pirates aren’t violating other people’s rights?

The correct phrase would be “infringe on other people’s statutory rights.”

But the word “infringe” does not have the violent, rape-like emotional gut-punch of the word “violate.”

And by not specifying “statutory rights,” you put them on par with fundamental human rights. Like you did in this very comment.

So, yep: nothing but an appeal to emotions.

You probably can’t see that, though, because your entire thinking on this subject is driven by emotions (angry, “hang ’em high” emotions), and not by anything approaching reason. I’ve debated you enough times to know this is true.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Re:

I think it’s an undeniable fact that copyright does incentivize the creation of new and better works.

As far as I can see, the main use of copyright is to allow the publishers, labels and studios to gain control of other peoples creative works. The way they pay these creators shows that most are not driven by money, and the few that do make it rich make even more money for the middlemen.
Most creators that go it alone do not rely on the protection that copyright give their works.
Further copyright relies on a false premise, that each creators work is totally unique, when in fact they are derivatives and mash ops for the most part. The other false premise being copyright is that culture consists of a few people creating for many passive consumers, when in fact it is participatory. A pub for instance should not need a performance license to allow a sing-song even though people will be singing copyrighted works; those are the songs they are familiar with.
Copyright had limited value while the copying of works relied on expensive industrial processes to produce lots of cheap copies. It did not exist when copying was by a person laboriously copying a book, and should have no place copying is virtually free.

RD says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Re:

You DO realize that “pirates” pirate EVERYTHING, even stuff that is not copyrighted, right? You DO realize that they do not “pirate” JUST because something is copyrighted, right? You DO realize that “pirates” don’t actually care about whether something copyrighted or not, and it has ZERO bearing on what they copy, right?

If someone copies Avengers, they are interested in Avengers, and its copyright status has no bearing on whether or not they are interested in Avengers.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Re:

So if someone has terabytes of content, you accuse them of piracy. If otherwise, you accuse them of being a nobody. Classy.

Eventually, this sort of attitude is going to discourage anyone from partaking in any form of your precious entertainment. Good luck trying to backroom deal that against the law then, nutjob.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

This. It (the content creation industry associations) would do itself favors if it didn’t resort to rhetoric and emotion in its own policy making decisions.

Since, after all, they have proven time and time again to be wrong, based on their “feelings”. With very little actual evidence ever presented to backup these “feelings” they have that the industry is doomed.

We’ve been waiting about 60 years for it to happen, and it hasn’t happened yet.

So why should we take their rhetoric at face value but dismiss the rhetoric of the public?

Can’t have it both ways, can we?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

I love how you leave off the part of the Copyright Clause that says the way to promote the progress is to grant exclusive rights to authors.

What are you talking about? That’s not quoted directly but it’s not left out. It’s directly acknowledged in the quote right here: “which enables [the copyright and patent] areas of law to be created via Congress”

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

When one quotes the Copyright Clause, one typically quotes the whole thing and not just the first half. Mike hates that second half more than anything else in the world. That’s why he thinks the public are the “sole” stakeholders when it comes to copyright. In his mind, authors have no place whatsoever at the table. Amazing.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re: Re:

When one quotes the Copyright Clause, one typically quotes the whole thing and not just the first half.

And violating this completely arbitrary made up rule you just pulled out of your ass totally proves… well nothing actually.

Mike hates that second half more than anything else in the world.

Oh my science you can read minds? What are you doing here then? Shouldn’t you be off making boatloads of money off your mind reading?

That’s why he thinks the public are the “sole” stakeholders when it comes to copyright.

I don’t know that I’ve ever seen Mike say they’re the “sole” stakeholders (but hey, I could be wrong I don’t exactly know everything Mike has ever said). He does say that the purpose of copyright is to benefit the public, not authors over the public, but that should be pretty noncontroversial given that the copyright clause says the exact same thing. Even claiming their the sole stakeholders is certainly supportable given the language but that seems a fair point for debate.

In his mind, authors have no place whatsoever at the table. Amazing.

Again with the mind reading. Seriously, you could be making a mint.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Re:

I don’t know that I’ve ever seen Mike say they’re the “sole” stakeholders (but hey, I could be wrong I don’t exactly know everything Mike has ever said).

You should read the very article above. Mike says: “As we’ve discussed, the whole purpose of this clause is to make it clear that the public are the sole stakeholders when it comes to proper policy making decisions regarding these laws.”

It’s funny how this claim is so dumb that even Mike’s supporters can’t believe he would say it. I agree. It’s really that dumb.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Re:

Yes. Their stake is completely irrelevant. The public stake is the only one that matters. The only consideration given to author’s is how changes in their behavior could affect the public stake. The problem remains that copyright has been completely twisted to be something that’s about securing rights to authors regardless of any purpose other than securing rights to authors.

JEDIDIAH says:

Re: Re: Re:2 It's the art, not the work.

In his mind, authors have no place whatsoever at the table. Amazing.

The copyright clause is about creating art, not enriching artists. The work is the point. That is something that is lost in this rush by corporate interests to distort copyright into some sort of virtual land grab.

We have this pile of new stuff and it’s fodder for the next generation of artists to use in creating more new stuff.

Payments are just a means to an end, entirely optional.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3 It's the art, not the work.

The copyright clause is about creating art, not enriching artists.

On the contrary, it’s about both. You enrich artists by making excludable that which is not naturally excludable. This incentivized the investment of time, energy, money, and skill into the creation of new and better works. This in turn benefits the public. If you erase the means, then the ends the means produce get erased too. You guys seem to think the copyright system serves no purpose, when your big hard drives full of pirated stuff says differently. It’s like you’re saying that money is useless while you rob the bank.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4 It's the art, not the work.

You know, I don’t pirate, but a lot of artists don’t get my money anyway, because their works aren’t legally available where I live. So you protect the artists’ rights by… limiting the number of people who can legally enjoy their work? Copyright nowadays does way more than it was originally meant to do, which is what’s bothering most people here. Not the fact that it requires paying for the art.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4 It's the art, not the work.

You enrich artists by making excludable that which is not naturally excludable.

Nice theory, but the practice seems to be make the middlemen rich while keeping artists poor. Yes a few big stars become insanely rich, mainly because they can hold out for massive up front payments, but this is manly the performers, rather than the writers and other creative types.

Gwiz (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Re:

That’s why he thinks the public are the “sole” stakeholders when it comes to copyright. In his mind, authors have no place whatsoever at the table. Amazing.

I don’t believe I’ve seen Mike state that at all. I also don’t believe I’ve seen anyone state that the creators themselves should have no place at the table either.

On the other hand, I’ve seen plenty of examples where the legacy gatekeepers try every trick in the book to keep the public from the table.

If you ask me, the creators and the public should be the most important entities at the table. Copyright is a deal between the public and the creators. The legacy gatekeepers should be the ones vanquished to the little kid’s table, so the grown-ups can talk without distraction.

Gwiz (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Re:

Fair enough.

I can see how you interpreted it that way. I took it as that was Mike’s opinion of the Framer’s intention when including the Copyright Clause in Constitution, not necessarily his opinion on who should or shouldn’t be at the table for current negotiations, with the exception that the public should most definitely be included.

E. Zachary Knight (profile) says:

Re: Re:

I love how you leave off the part of the Copyright Clause that says the way to promote the progress is to grant exclusive rights to authors. No doubt you’d erase that from the Constitution if you could. Best just to pretend it’s not there, right?

That is not misleading. Mike was explicitly talking about the purpose of copyright. You are confusing the purpose of copyright with the method. The purpose of copyright is not to grant a monopoly, that is the method.

Since the purpose of copyright is to promote science and useful arts, then we should be framing any and all discussions of the method of copyright in those terms. Is the approach we are currently taking or plan on taking going to promote the science and useful arts? IS there a better way to promote the science and useful arts?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

The means and the ends are inextricably intertwined. If the Copyright Clause merely said Congress has the power to promote the progress, you might have a point. But, unlike all of the other enumerated powers under Article I, Section 8, the Constitution provides the means of accomplishing the ends.

IS there a better way to promote the science and useful arts?

That’s a great question, and it’s one that there will always be disagreement over. Mike clearly wants authors to have no exclusive rights whatsoever. That’s why he constantly reminds people that the means are severable from the ends. And that’s why he thinks the ONLY thing wrong with piracy is that the victims don’t like it. I have yet to see him ever acknowledge that copyright in any way, shape, or form promotes the progress. He’s a copyright denialist.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Re:

I’m just not following you. Yes, the primary purpose of copyright is to benefit the public. But it accomplishes this end by giving authors exclusive rights that permit authors to exclude the public for limited times. Authors are clearly significant stakeholders since, unless authors’ incentives are sufficient and meaningful, the public won’t get the benefits in the end.

JEDIDIAH says:

Re: Re: Re:3 It's not certain at all.

Your entire thesis is just self-serving wishful thinking.

You are trying to take as an article of faith something that needs to be put up for public debate so that we can really get to the truth of the matter. Copyright is in direct conflict with individual liberties. In any situation where it is not productive, it needs to yield.

Copyright comes last, not first.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Re:

I’m not sure if we’re just parsing the sentence differently or what but to me:

“As we’ve discussed, the whole purpose of this clause is to make it clear that the public are the sole stakeholders when it comes to proper policy making decisions regarding these laws”

Means the proper way to make policy decisions on copyright is to consider only the public stake rather than implementing copyrights for the sake of copyrights themselves or for authors. How copyrights are crafted can obviously alter author incentives but any argument that just stops there doesn’t contribute to the discussion on proper policy at all because the only stake that’s supposed to matter is the public’s.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Re:

Authors are clearly significant stakeholders since

If they use any of the traditional publishing routes to market, they lose all control over their work when they sign a contract. If the publisher decides to cease publication, or only produce a small number of copies there is nothing an Author can do.

RD says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Re:

Once again for those (you) in the cheap seats:

“I’m just not following you. Yes, the primary purpose of copyright is to benefit the public.”=PURPOSE. This is the “what/why.”

“But it accomplishes this end by giving authors exclusive rights that permit authors to exclude the public for limited times.”=METHOD, or the “how” and “when.”

“Authors are clearly significant stakeholders since, unless authors’ incentives are sufficient and meaningful, the public won’t get the benefits in the end.”

And this is where you conflate the two and equalize them as being the same thing.

THEY

ARE

NOT.

The PUBLIC is granting the AUTHOR (or, ultimately, the copyright holder) the privilege. That privilege ONLY exists because of what should be LIMITED rights for a LIMITED time to the author.

BOTH sides benefit when these sides are in balance. Right now, ALL of the rights, privileges and benefits go SOLELY to the COPYRIGHT HOLDER, with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING (3 YEARS now of NOT ONE SINGLE WORK being returned to the public domain, let alone all the absurd lawsuits against a single individual downloading a handful of songs with no “commercial” aspect.) going back to the public IT BELONGS TO. And yes, IT BELONGS TO THE PUBLIC. THAT is the bargain for those exclusive rights.

Your side has reneged on the bargain and keeps trying to move the needle EVEN FURTHER in favor of Copyright at the expense of those who granted the privilege in the first place.

Until you can address WHY this balance is totally in favor of one side over the other, you don’t get to whine and cry doom and gloom about a relatively small amount of infringement that goes on.

TheUglyOne (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Re:

As a matter of fact, my interpretation of Mike’s view on copyright is that the term should be reasonable not death +70 years. Further, the limitations that are placed by copyright holders are frequently so backwards and draconian that it actually creates incentives for people to find alternative methods to access said copyrighted material.

Then again, I’m no mind reader so I could be wrong.

Mike C. (profile) says:

Re: Re:

I love how you leave off the part of the Copyright Clause that says the way to promote the progress is to grant exclusive rights to authors. No doubt you’d erase that from the Constitution if you could. Best just to pretend it’s not there, right?

I love how you leave off the part of the Copyright Clause that says “for a limited time”. No doubt you’d erase that from the Constitution if you could. Best just to pretend it’s not there, right?

Of course, I’m sure you’ll reply that current copyright is limited. I disagree. While in the scope or frame of all of human history, life+70 is limited, but in terms of a single human lifespan, it’s not. Any creative product created by any “author” in my lifetime will never be available to me outside of copyright. As far as my perspective is concerned, that’s an infinite restriction, not “limited”.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

I love how you leave off the part of the Copyright Clause that says “for a limited time”. No doubt you’d erase that from the Constitution if you could. Best just to pretend it’s not there, right?

You’re right. I did leave that off. Thanks for clarifying. My omission was rightfully pointed out by you. Thanks again.

Of course, I’m sure you’ll reply that current copyright is limited. I disagree. While in the scope or frame of all of human history, life+70 is limited, but in terms of a single human lifespan, it’s not. Any creative product created by any “author” in my lifetime will never be available to me outside of copyright. As far as my perspective is concerned, that’s an infinite restriction, not “limited”.

You’re right, I do think that life + X is limited, because, well, it is limited. I understand that it’s not as limited as you would like, but it’s still limited. The fact that you don’t have the access to the work product of others that you invested no time, energy, money, or skill in creating won’t keep me up at nights. I think your sense of entitlement to the works of others is extremely dubious.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Re:

If you think you’re entitled to the work product of others that you played no part in creating, then you must believe in Techdirt–home of the “entitled” malcontents. Congrats, Karl! You’re in the “club.” What other people produce is “yours.” You “earned” it. Mike Masnick approves.

Mike C. (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Re:

Ooops – looks like I left something out which caused you to make false assumptions. Let me rephrase something and see if it helps you at all:

Any creative product created by any “author” in my lifetime will never be available to me outside of copyright for use as a base or starting point to build something new.

Of course, you would have us believe that the original creator still deserves a major cut of any profits from the new work. You believe that the 2nd generation work couldn’t possibly exist without the first. The point you’re ignoring is that the 2nd creator puts just as much if not more effort into the 2nd generation work. If you disagree, then stop being a hypocrite and demand that the Ray Charles estate donate their proceeds to all the people Ray copied to become a star.

Rikuo says:

Re: Re: Re: Re:

” The fact that you don’t have the access to the work product of others that you invested no time, energy, money, or skill in creating won’t keep me up at nights. I think your sense of entitlement to the works of others is extremely dubious.”

Okay, so tell me. I can watch a Freddy Astaire movie right now if I wanted to, as its in the public domain. I had no part in the creation of his movies. Am I somehow ethically in the wrong here for watching his movies.
Now, let’s say I watch a movie that’s older than Freddy Astaire but is still under copyright. Let’s say its Steamboat Willie. I had no part in the creation of that movie. Am I somehow in the wrong for watching it?

Let’s say someone released a movie yesterday, and I want to watch it forty years from now, but its still under copyright. Am I still in the wrong?

The problem with you is you use absolute statements. You completely ignored the fact that life+70 is basically infinite by simple hand-wavium. You might as well have said “Eh…so?” And then lumped the free viewing of all movies that one watches when they’ve had no part in their production as being in the wrong, with no attempt to look at the shades of grey, with no attempt at realizing that that is the problem, that the public domain is being starved.

Anonymous Coward says:

If appealing to emotions is considered to have no place in policy discussion, then what do they call:

– Home Taping is Killing Music
– Claims of poor, starving artists
– Claims of poor, starving corn farmers
– Claims that supermarkets are an IP-driven industry

Anyone else want to help me with this list?

Karl (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

“Piracy” and “Theft” are two invalid words they much use simply to stir emotional responses in the uninformed.

Let’s not forget “Victim,” a favorite of one of our major appeal-to-emotion trolls here.

And, of course, attempts to debate “morality” are always just thinly-veiled attempts to turn the debate into appeals to emotion as well.

Anonymous Coward says:

I won’t try to argue that the maximalists actually care about the public, but this particular quote in no way says what Mike is saying it does. The subject of the sentence is “appealing to emotions” — emotional appeal is what has no place in policy discussions, not the online petitions themselves.

Maybe there’s another quote where they explicitly say that online petitions and public voices shouldn’t be heard. I wouldn’t be surprised. But that’s not at all what that sentence says.

Violated (profile) says:

The Team

I am sure the Copyright Alliance do fear public involvement when we are like mortal enemies where it would he hard to find common ground that we could agree on. They just want to ramp up copyright law to increase their control (regardless of profit) and we of course want to ramp down copyright to provide public gain and to open up the market to improve creation and distribution.

They do indeed fear us when the public are now well aware of the failures of copyright. They do not like what they see and big changes are obviously needed. What I am sure they most fear is a sane and reasonable voice.

Had I been an American I would have been happy to meet them face to face when after all I have been very aware of copyright matters for 16 years now. My business in fact is to assist the public to achieve their fair use goals under copyright. Still despite my wider view of the issues at hand I am sure that there are plenty of others who can well handle policy debate. It could make an historic turning point in how new copyright law is created namely always with public interest involvement.

I do think out best next step should be to assemble a team who are skilled in their knowledge and can handle policy debate when called upon to do so. They would be no end of people and groups to choose from but a good understanding of politics would be a bonus.

Anonymous Coward says:

The only reason why copyright law becomes so annoying lately is because the whole thing is extremely one-sided. Indeed, the creators should get their rewards, but what do the consumers get? Tons of inconvenience caused by DRM, regional restrictions and general lack of a way to get the product quickly and easily.

Many people turn to piracy because it allows them to get what they want right away, in any format they want, and no matter where they live. Create a legal service like this, and voila – money. I’m not saying EVERYONE will stop pirating, but the amount of money that could be earned will sure be pretty large?

Instead, the content producers insist that DRM is great, regional restrictions and release windows are great, and then chose to fight the resulting rise of piracy instead of trying to fix things. So, who is misguided, again?

Anonymous Coward says:

Some quotes to think about.

This ‘telephone’ has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us.
Western Union internal memo, 1876

The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?
David Sarnoff’s associates in response to his urgings for investment in the radio in the 1920s.

We anticipate a global world-maket with place for perhaps five computers.
Tom Watson, IBM 1949

All imaginable inventions have already been invented.
Manager of the American Patent Agency Charles Duell 1899

Guitar-groups have no future.
EMI-manager for Beatles 1962

Cowards Anonymous says:

“Those skeptical of copyright protection have expended a lot of energy to redefine its language and revise its history.”

Those copyright maximalist astrotrolls have expended a lot of energy to redefine its language and revise its history:
Astrotroll refuted here.
Astrotroll refuted here.

“Calls for lessening copyright protections are far too often accompanied by heated rhetoric.”

Calls for extending copyright protections are far too often accompanied by heated rhetoric:
Astrotroll refuted here and here.

“Appealing to emotions may be a great way to drum up signatures for online petitions, but has no place in policy discussions.”

Astrotroll refuted here.
Astrotroll and astrotroll refuted here.

“Finally, it is not hard to find examples of those who propose dramatic changes without understanding the business realities of how creative individuals and industries operate.”

Examples here, here, here and making money Gangnam style.

Eponymous Coward says:

A War of Trademarked Words:

My feelings are that the copyright industries & maximalists believe the public is stupid as it’s foundational premise. We are sheep, to use an overly abused analogy, in their eyes to be leveraged for their personal enrichment. Now they hoot, holler, and hiss for they feel some upstarts are leading us astray into different pastures where the legacy players can’t get to us as easy. This leads me to wonder if they’ll ever believe us to be autonomous even as we stand up to them and say “no more fleecing!” Saddly, I think them so entrenched in their own gloss that they’ll forever believe someone else is behind us herding us along. To this end I think them lost and undeserving of guidance, so I write them off like they do us. I wait for the day everything they hold dear crumbles and collapses under the wait of their hubris. I see them as the enemy of our future. There is no honor in this, but this is how I feel.

Anonymous Coward says:

learn what a 'steakholder' is first

he is right, the public are NOT stakeholders in this context, neither are customers.

look up what a ‘stakeholder’ is a “stockholder” and “CUSTOMER” is, and trying to understand they are not the same things.

you might want to look up the entomology of the term stakeholder.

A person who uses a product from an organization is a customer or consumer, but not a person with a “stake” in the company they are consuming off. The public could also be a customer, and a member of the public could also be a share holder, or a stakeholder, but that does not mean all of the public or all customers are therefore stakeholders.

A person who buys a gold ring does not have a stake in the gold mine the gold came from, for example, nor can they be affected or affect the goldmines actions. They are not stakeholders.

nasch says:

Re: learn what a 'steakholder' is first

he is right, the public are NOT stakeholders in this context, neither are customers.

look up what a ‘stakeholder’ is a “stockholder” and “CUSTOMER” is, and trying to understand they are not the same things.

“Stakeholder, an entity that can be affected by the results of that in which they are said to be stakeholders, i.e., that in which they have a stake.”

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: learn what a 'steakholder' is first

No one is asserting that the public has a stake in a particular product or composition. You can also leave the words “customer” and “consumer” out of these debates.

This is about citizens asserting their stake in the public policy of their country. We are stakeholders in the government, its policies, and its actions.

special-interesting (profile) says:

Sounds like another proposal to meet behind closed doors. Is government so broken they don’t even feel embarrassed about secret meetings anymore? Blatantly suggesting that the public should have no input in such important law affecting everyday life takes gall. Its these types of political insects that make insecticide sales swell.

Of course any firm supported by a monopoly would want to expand on that. The funny thing is why they have a public voice at all? But politics listens to money these days not the public and certainly not common sense.

?Appealing to emotions may be a great way to drum up signatures for online petitions, but has no place in policy discussions? Is an attempt at marginalizing a group using demonizing (bedeviling?) terms to justify themselves self sanctimoniously. Its exactly that type of emotional appeal Mrs. Aistars blames the public for and sounds hypocritical at best. Grow up!

Copyright already has negative connotations. Bad law is destructive to value. Since most commercially made media with all the copyright laws jacketing it modify such products in the same way toxic waste would to you or your lawn why tolerate it?

Current copyright law disallows even its own use. Why would anyone pay for anything they could not legally use? Songs we cant sing or videos we cant act out skits from because of public performance laws? Get real.

Current copyright law wastes time. How many (cumulative) days total have we been forced to spend reading (or not reading!) FBI warnings in front of movies and videos? Give me my life back!

Current copyright law is destructive. How many lives have been obliterated with overly large fines/fees and or publicly shamed to death by porn chasing copyright lawyers? A waste of money and economic strength.

How much time is wasted reading 20 page EULAs the current bastardization from contract law. (a bit off topic but couldn’t help the jab)

Copyright law is bad news all around. It makes life more dangerous to even own copyrighted media. It devalues the media itself. It wastes time and money. It censors media in ways so disastrous to the sharing of culture and ideas its legendary. (The ‘cultural black hole’ as phrased by others.) As it stands now copyright is a direct drain on the economy let alone the damage to culture through diminished public domain.

The argument that authors and publishers need more protection to make more money is flat our a lie. No new jobs will be created. No money will be made. Culture will suffer. Lives will be destroyed. The economy will shrink. All this I predict when/if copyright is expanded or removed from civil courts.

And. Now I have to wade through a mountain of FUD just to get to talk intelligently about copyright? Thanks! -sarcastic- Who stole, with ridiculous term extensions, from the public domain anyway?

Almost the entire problem with copyright is lack of public input. The selfishness of copyright knows no bounds.

?There is no viable invention without people who wanna use it and think its cool. There is no book if nobody can or wants to read. There is no author without an audience. There would be no Stradivarius without a public that did not appreciate and afford violin music.

Upon the shoulders giants we stand. (somebody said that before) Even Stradivarius. What we are saying is that we want to stand on top of the shoulders of the greats by making the scope and term limits of Copyright and Patent reasonable. (to expire well within our lifetimes) ? (from an earlier post but fits so swell here)

NaBUru38 (profile) says:

Mike, thanks for writing so frequently and deeply about the problems of intellectual property laws. But this article is misleading at some places.

“that should be seen for what it rightfully is: an insulting way of dismissing the public’s interest in a law that is for the public’s benefit”

The article says that what doesn’t belong to policy discussion is “heated rhetoric” and “appealing to emotions”.

“You see its true contempt for the public. Apparently the public is simply too stupid to understand copyright law and is easily led astray”

The article says that anti-copyright activists “have played an aggressive role in warping the public’s understanding”. This criticises them, not the public.

You have good arguments on why their proposals hurt citizens and their behaviour is dangerous, Mike. Please focus on them, and avoid unnecessary drama.

nasch says:

Re: Unconstitutional

Copyright terms in excess of 20 years are unconstitutionally long.

The Constitution specifies that the term must be limited, but it says nothing about being less than 20 years.

I’d also like to see rules stripping copyright protection for any material locked behind DRM schemes. You should be forced to opt for legal protection, or technological protection, but not be able to use both.

No need for that, just don’t make it illegal to bypass DRM. Without the club of the DMCA, I don’t think DRM could survive.

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