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A Week Later: Reflecting On Aaron Swartz

from the memorials-and-continuing-action dept

For those of us who crossed paths, even if briefly, with Aaron Swartz during his short lifetime, this week was certainly a difficult one. He accomplished so much, but the really distressing point is how much more all of us expected him to accomplish in the future, and how we will all be worse off without that happening. I have a big list of people who I've asked to do the weekly Techdirt favorites -- along with many people who I want to ask, and each week I pick people off of that list. Aaron's been on that list for a long, long time, and I never got around to asking him. And now I never will.

This week, instead of our usual "favorites of the week" post from the community, I wanted to bring together some of the posts we had about Aaron, and ask people to reflect, and think about how to help continue to build out the legacy of some of what Aaron started.

First off, we had our initial post trying to highlight just how much of a loss this was for everyone. This is a point that many who didn't know him still don't understand. Aaron could be strong-willed and stubborn at times -- and always rubbed some people the wrong way -- but I don't know anyone who knew him who didn't think that he did amazing things and likely would continue to do amazing things going forward.

A key aspect of all of this, of course, was the case against Aaron. Whether or not you believe that triggered the suicide, it was worth exploring the case on the merits -- which we found to be seriously lacking. For what it's worth (because I know people will bring it up), lawyer and legal scholar Orin Kerr -- who I greatly respect, and often agree with -- has published a series of pieces in which he argues that the case and the prosecution had merit, even if he still believes strongly that the law it was based on, the CFAA, is greatly in need of fixing. Kerr's opinion is one such opinion -- and while interesting and well thought out, it fails to convince me for a couple of key reasons.

First, much of it seems to be arguing against a strawman. While he agrees that there are problems with the CFAA, he seems upset that people are focusing on the CFAA because of Aaron, and seems to suggest people should be upset about the larger issues with the act. But... we are. Lots of people are. There have been tons of discussions about how Swartz's case is not unique and how the problems of the CFAA and over-aggressive prosecution are systemic and not outliers. So I'm not sure what he's arguing against there, other than a strawman.

But, more importantly, I think Kerr errs in making statements about some of what happened, which he portrays in the most negative light, not even assuming that there may be perfectly reasonable, non-nefarious, reasons for those actions. Changing your IP address, and later your MAC address, are valid ways of troubleshooting why something stopped working -- to locate where the issue is cropping up. They are not, automatically, suggestions that someone is trying to avoid a block or hide one's identity. I am, of course, not the only one who has a problem with Kerr's analysis. Plenty of legal scholars have spoken up about why they believe Kerr is misguided on this particular case. For example, legal scholar Jamie Boyle does a wonderful job of walking through Kerr's argument and highlighting where his interpretations and understanding of what Aaron may have done (or what his motives were) could very well be mistaken.

Either way, we agree with Kerr that the laws under which Swartz was charged are problematic. As Tim Wu noted, they're so broad that almost anyone can be a felon. In fact, law professor James Grimmelmann noted that he, too, could be guilty of the exact same thing that Aaron was charged with, if a prosecutor decided he or she wanted to take Grimmelmann down. Furthermore, the maximum prison time trumpeted by US Attorney Carmen Ortiz seems so disproportionate not just to the "crime" (if there was one), but also when compared to the maximum punishment people face for real crimes.

While the US Attorneys Office initially stayed silent, Carmen Ortiz's husband, IBM exec Tom Dolan, first started sniping on Twitter, criticizing the Swartz's family just a few days after his suicide. Talk about insulting. The next day, Ortiz finally came out with a statement. Unlike MIT's statement -- which admitted that the institution needed to reflect carefully on what happen and set up an investigation to explore whether it could have done better, Ortiz's statement not only took a very defensive stance, but came across as both tone deaf and completely disconnected from reality. She claimed that she and her colleagues realized that Aaron's "crime" wasn't that big of a deal, which is why they offered him a plea bargain -- whereby he needed to plead guilty to 13 felonies and they'd only recommend 6 months in jail (the judge could choose a different amount of time) -- but ignored how she and her colleagues used the possibility of 35 years or more to threaten and badger Aaron as they tried to coax the plea bargain out of him. Larry Lessig gets it right here in expressing his sheer anger at Ortiz's statement. He berates himself for even thinking that Ortiz might at least be somewhat self-reflective and admit that perhaps the issues should be explored.
The dumbest-fucking-naive-allegedly-smart person you will ever know: that guy thought this tragedy would at least shake for one second the facade of certainty that is our government, and allow at least a tiny light of recognition to shine through, and in that tiny ray, maybe a question, a pause, a moment of “ok, we need to look at this carefully.” I wasn’t dumb enough to believe that Ortiz could achieve the grace of [MIT President] Reif. But the single gift I wanted was at least a clumsy, hesitating, “we’re going to look at this carefully, and think about whether mistakes might have been made.”
Of course, if the US Attorney's Office refuses to think twice about this, at least some in Congress are now looking to force them to do so. Rep. Zoe Lofgren promised to reform the CFAA. Rep. Darrell Issa promised to investigate the DOJ's handling of the case. And Senator John Cornyn stepped up to the plate with a series of questions about the case, sent to Attorney General Eric Holder. Hopefully, something actually happens. We need real change, rather than bogus statements... and more people bullied by the increasingly misnamed Justice Department.

But, finally, in all of the anger and frustration and sadness, there is one thing that is most important. Aaron was a builder and a doer (sometimes to a fault). And the best way to honor his memory is to get out there and do stuff: build stuff up and share some knowledge. Thankfully, it's already inspired many researchers to free their own research. It's inspired Dan Bull to write a song, and should have us all thinking about the difference between content and knowledge -- and which is more important.

Finally, yesterday was Internet Freedom Day, commemorating the day the internet went dark to protest SOPA and PIPA. Aaron Swartz was a huge part of making that happen, and yet he didn't live to see the one year anniversary. Many of us in San Francisco gathered last night to celebrate the day, but the memory of Swartz was a big part of it as well. Peter Eckersly told the flip side of Swartz's great video about his own role in stopping SOPA and PIPA. Of all the people who deserved to bask in the success of that day last year, it's Swartz, who should have been at one of these gatherings telling his own story, rather than having to have someone else share it.

This week, these are not my favorite posts. Far from it. These posts are a lament for what we've lost, a plea to prevent any more such losses, and a smidgen of hope that within all this tragedy, true reform might blossom. From my interactions with Aaron, I believe it's exactly the sort of response he'd want -- even if we'd all prefer that he were still around to lead the charge, rather than merely be the inspiration for it all. Aaron's gone and the world is worse off for it. But let it be a challenge to all of us to do more, to do better, and to at least try to replace some tiny piece of what we've lost.


Reader Comments (rss)

(Flattened / Threaded)

  1.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 12:38pm

    MIT and Journals

    How much money was supplied by taxpayers to product the journals downloaded by Swartz? If any...

     

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  2.  
    identicon
    anon, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 12:38pm

    YUP

    Maybe we should all be asking for a full investigation into the justice department, not just about this case but also about others. It s about time that the Justice department started answering for IT'S crimes of coercion and Mafia like tactics to force people to accept ple deals with the threat of much longer time in jail if they are somehow found guilty of a crime they did not commit. In fact it shows how much illegal goings on there are in the Justice department that any innocent person should ever have the doubt of getting to the truth in a court, especially when they know they are not guilty. If the Justice Department has to be completely reformed i say that is what needs to happen, and maybe calling for an investigation will do this.

     

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  3.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 1:23pm

    Re: MIT and Journals

    With academic journals, the academics provide the content, peer review and editing at their own cost. They usually have to pay page costs to get the paper included in a journal, as well as assign the copyright. This all has to come out the academics grants. Many areas of academe are setting up free access electronic journals, with the page costs going to pay for servers and administration. Usually these will waive the page costs under some circumstances.
    Whoever provided the research grants paid for the journals, which includes a significant taxpayer contribution.
    Does this answer your question?

     

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  4.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 1:25pm

    Re: MIT and Journals

    product?

     

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  5. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
     
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 1:57pm

    Milk, milk, milk. Has any other website had even half the articles that you've had? You're so angry you just can't help yourself. Keep on milking it to further your agenda.

     

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    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 1:58pm

    Milk, milk, milk. Has any other website had even half the articles that you've had? You're so angry at the world you just can't help yourself. Keep on milking it to further your agenda.

     

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  7.  
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    The Ultimate Anonymous Coward, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 1:59pm

    A form of justice?

    It has come to my attention that the alt.usenet.kooks Usenet newsgroup has nominated the United States Department of Justice for their "Bobo Award", which is the "highest" of their awards and is given only to those kooks whose online looniness leads to bad real-life consequences. The previous "winner" was Andrew Cheung, the starvation-diet proponent who ended up causing several deaths. The reason for the DOJ's Bobo nomination is, of course, having driven Aaron Swartz to suicide.

    The nominating post is available at this google URL:
    http://groups.google.com/group/alt.usenet.kooks/msg/8c4a53aec01d0af0

    People might be interested in voting for those clowns at the DOJ when the awards are voted on, I think in February.

    You might also be interested that the author of the nomination extensively cites Techdirt's own coverage of the story in support of her arguments.

    (Note: voting would require making Usenet posts to a newsgroup known to harbor its own share of stalkers and nutjobs; you might want to take steps to protect your identity, not from the government but from other kooks. Free news server AIOE requires some configuration but obscures your posting IP and allows arbitrary "from" names, without signup; Google Groups is easy to use if you're not familiar with Usenet, but exposes your posting IP, so you might want to use a proxy of some sort if you vote from there, or to post from a public WiFi some distance from both your home and work.)

     

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  8.  
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    shane (profile), Jan 19th, 2013 @ 2:08pm

    Awesome article

    Over in the discussion thread for Nina Paley's recent release of Sita Sings the Blues, at least one person already released their web content through creative commons.

    I'm still sort of struggling to find ways to bring this home to my locality (Austin TX). Anyone here living close by and knowing anything going on here, let me know.

     

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  9.  
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    :Lobo Santo (profile), Jan 19th, 2013 @ 2:25pm

    Re: YUP

    Asking a corrupt organization to investigate itself? What good will that do?

     

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  10.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 2:42pm

    Truth is hard.

    Quote:
    He publicly derided those trying to expose him, ruining some of their lives. "We sued so many people," Armstrong told Winfrey -- people who were telling the truth and lost to him in court in spite of it.


    http://edition.cnn.com/2013/01/19/sport/armstrong-7-lessons/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

    We have a justice system that is not about the pursuit of the truth, is about careers and how they may look, is about pandering to the right people so you can get ahead.

    I am ashamed not by the actions of others, I am ashamed to not be wise enough to see a solution, I am ashamed to not be smart enough to find ways to change things, I am ashamed because I dropped the ball.

    This is what drives me today, shame to have allowed such things to happen.

    Mr. Aaron made a choice, maybe the right one for him, I will never know, what I do know is that I need to try harder to make not only the justice system better but to understand how it evolved into what it is today, there is a cause for all of it, and I may have played a role in it and that bugs me.

     

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  11.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 2:58pm

    Re: Re: MIT and Journals

    Fat finger - "produce"

     

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  12.  
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    Trails (profile), Jan 19th, 2013 @ 2:59pm

    Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    I don't get this notion many have. Changing your ip address or MAC address are not wrong, full stop. They are changing network configs. It sounds big and scary to luddites, and people who don't understand how this stuff works.

    "He changed his MAC address?!? That must be hacking cause I don't even know what it is"

    It's not hacking, it's not wrong, and it's not even hard.

    Arguing that he changed his ip and mac address shows knowledge of wrong doing is idiotic. It's like arguing someone changing their shirt demonstrates knowledge of wrong doing.

     

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  13.  
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    weneedhelp - not signed in, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 3:40pm

    Re:

    Milk, does a body good.

     

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  14.  
    identicon
    weneedhelp - not signed in, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 3:50pm

    MIT

    Does anyone else find the picture on the MIT website disturbing:
    http://www.mit.edu/

    Very strange.

    Anyone ever been to the campus? Is it a picture of somewhere there? I tried to Google map it but that appears to be down right now.
    503. That’s an error.

    The service you requested is not available at this time.

    Service error -27. That’s all we know.

     

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  15.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 3:52pm

    Re: Re: MIT and Journals

    Thanks for the info.

    I’ve heard some taxpayer funded research is being locked up behind paywalls, which is BS!

    I searched “journals” in TechDirt and got an eye-full of the academic zealots. (make sure you use the custom search link after the box)

     

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  16.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 3:54pm

    Re: MIT

    The picture is referring to the story:
    today's spotlight
    Hard times in Chicago

     

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  17.  
    identicon
    weneedhelp - not signed in, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 3:58pm

    MIT

     

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  18.  
    identicon
    weneedhelp - not signed in, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 4:00pm

    Re: Re: MIT

    Ok makes sense then. Thanks. Didn't read all the links on the page.

     

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  19.  
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    weneedhelp - not signed in, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 4:01pm

    Re: MIT

    Disregard please see above response.

     

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  20.  
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    JMT (profile), Jan 19th, 2013 @ 5:10pm

    Re:

    "Keep on milking it to further your agenda."

    I know I'm asking far too much of a cowardly troll, but do you think you could actually explain this silly accusation to keep repeating?

     

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  21.  
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    commenter8 (profile), Jan 19th, 2013 @ 5:14pm

    Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    Just found this great article over at The Guardian:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2013/jan/18/aaron-swartz-suicide-girlfriend-intern et-reddit

    Aaron Swartz girlfriend blames suicide on 'vindictiveness' of prosecution

    The partner of the internet activist Aaron Swartz, who killed himself earlier this week, has blamed his suicide on the stress of his prosecution.

    Taren Stinebrickner-Kauffman said she was "absolutely confident" that Swartz killed himself because of the case, in which he was being prosecuted for downloading academic articles from a university archive.

    Swartz, 26, a prominent open-internet advocate who helped build Reddit and RSS, was found dead in the Brooklyn apartment he shared with Stinebrickner-Kauffman on January 11. They started dating a few weeks before Swartz was indicted in 2011.

    He was set to go trial next month for downloading academic articles from JSTOR, an online academic journal library, at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. If convicted, he could have faced a 30-year jail sentence, although it emerged this week that he had been offered a six-month term in a plea bargain. "The legal system has lost all sense of mercy and justice and it has been replaced with punitiveness and vindictiveness," Stinebrickner-Kauffman told Mail Online.

    "Felony charges change the course of people's lives. There are things Aaron maybe wanted to do – like go into government – and it's just ludicrous that one act like this could prevent somebody like him from serving his country. The risk was too much for him."

    [...] Strinebrickner-Kauffman is the executive director and founder of SumOfUs [http://sumofus.org], a movement that attempts to counterbalance the power of corporations. She said that Swartz would take the subway with her to work, but the morning of January 11, he told her he wanted to stay home and rest.

    "I wanted to stay with him but he said he didn't want me to and that I should go to the office," Strinebrickner-Kauffman said. "So I did."

    She found him that evening dead of an apparent suicide in their apartment. [...]

     

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  22.  
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    Jay (profile), Jan 19th, 2013 @ 5:38pm

    I, robot

    The more I hear about this case, the more it seems to not make sense...

    Aaron wasn't prosecuted for the MIT issue. He was being prosecuted for Wikileaks. The timeline for his seizure and arrest coincides with him getting too close to any information about the treatment of Manning.

    He was attempting to find out how he was treated in Quantico and the Secret Service cut him off.

    But it seems to be a very dangerous game that these "powerful people" have played. Aaron paid a heavy price as a whistleblower. His death sparked a very noticeable shift in tone in how the US has treated people that want to share information they don't like.

    It's almost as if Aaron watched "I, robot" and decided to become the scientist. It's just an off sense of deja vu in how events have transpired in a week.

     

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  23. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
     
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 5:53pm

    Re: Re:

    Masnick is a piracy apologist and so was Swartz. He's trying to make a martyr out of him.

    Good luck with that.

     

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  24. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
     
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 5:58pm

    Re: Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    What an incredibly selfish act. Making his girlfriend discover him dead?

    Because he didn't want to do 6 months for breaking the law?

    Real upstanding hero you guys have there.

     

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  25.  
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    silverscarcat (profile), Jan 19th, 2013 @ 6:00pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    Better a "piracy apologist" than a Copyright Apologist.

     

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  26.  
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    silverscarcat (profile), Jan 19th, 2013 @ 6:03pm

    Re: Re: Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    Wow, you are just one sick mother fucker, aren't you?

     

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  27. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
     
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 6:28pm

    it is quite disgusting to hear masnick lament what HE has or will miss out on, and little to nothing about the person.

    So you are ok with using this death to further your agenda ?]

    You lament the loss of someone who might have taken your agenda further, and go to lengths to milk this tragedy for all it's worth.

    Very sad, and a clear reflection of your attitude, when can YOU GET OUT OF THIS, what advantages can you make from this person committing suicide.

    It's sickening, but it is clear Mr Masnick simple cannot help himself, he's got to use this to try to advance his cause, and cult.

    No mention of the affect this has on this "real" friends and family or the futility of suicide and the tragic loss of a life.

    NO, none of that, it's "how can I spin this to gain advantage".

    Yes, mansnick, you are one sick mother fucker....

     

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  28.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 6:39pm

    Re:

    Just listen to yourselves... He's not half the sick mother fucker you people are behaving like.

     

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  29.  
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    Greevar (profile), Jan 19th, 2013 @ 6:40pm

    Re:

    Pot, meet kettle.

     

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  30. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
     
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 6:43pm

    Re: Re:

    did you happen to actually read the article Masnick wrote ?

    "but the really distressing point is how much more all of us expected him to accomplish in the future

    so masnick is DISTRESSED by the fact that this person killed himself as opposed to staying alive and continuing 'the good fight'..

    EXPECTED

    Is it possible that the community and people like Mansick have EXPECTATIONS, that he felt unable to live up too that could have contributed to his suicide ?

    A key aspect of all of this, of course, was the case against Aaron. Whether or not you believe that triggered the suicide, it was worth exploring the case on the merits

    NO it is not worth exploring the case on it's merits, Yes, it is disgusting that you state "A KEY ASPECT OF ALL THIS" was the possibility of 6 months in a minimum security prison..

    That is an assumption from Masnick, he has no idea what triggered his suicide, nor is his suicide a reason or excuse for bringing up this or any other legal action against this person.

    No, mention of his long history of depression or the consideration that this may have been a key aspect to his suicide.

    and a smidgen of hope that within all this tragedy, true reform might blossom.

    So, it OK for him to kill himself after all it might help lead to "true reform", if that is not milking a tragedy for your own agenda advancement, then what is it ?

    (sure, it was a tragedy, but we might be able to game it for our benefit)...

    Disgusting..

     

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  31.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 6:49pm

    SNORE

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

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    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 7:05pm

    Re: Re: Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    and he is right, suicide is a selfish act, that you would not want to do to someone you cared about.

    selfish and cowardly.

     

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  33.  
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    Trails (profile), Jan 19th, 2013 @ 7:17pm

    Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    I don't get this notion many have. Changing your ip address or MAC address are not wrong, full stop. They are changing network configs on your system.

    The bolded should clarify the above point.

     

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  34.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 7:19pm

    Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    By itself, changing your IP and MAC address is not wrong, just as discharging a firearm at a gun range is not wrong.

    But it is your intent that makes all the difference.

    You can discharge a gun at a range, but if you point that gun at a person at a gun range and discharge it, it is murder.

    It has to do with WHY you did what you did, and if he changed his IP and MAC because he was trying to hide his identity and cover up a crime then it is wrong. And a crime.

    I know it's a bit hard for you to understand these things, but try to keep up please.

     

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  35.  
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    Trails (profile), Jan 19th, 2013 @ 7:20pm

    Re: Re: Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    Please take this sincerely and honestly when I tell you to go fuck yourself in the neck.

     

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  36.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 8:15pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    You must work in marketing or politics. It's truly impressive, in a sick and twisted way, how far you can twist anything that is said to further your own goals. Pretty sure that makes you the real sick-o here, but good luck trying to convince us all otherwise.

     

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  37.  
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    JMT (profile), Jan 19th, 2013 @ 8:30pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    Probably the best I can hope for from you clowns.

     

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  38.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 8:42pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Unlike you who enjoys pissing on the grave of a dead man. Nothing sick about that at all.

    No it's okay though, he was a "piracy apologist".

     

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  39.  
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    Milton Freewater, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 8:44pm

    Re: Re:

    "I know I'm asking far too much of a cowardly troll, but do you think you could actually explain this silly accusation to keep repeating?"

    I can explain it for the troll. "Keep milking it to further your agenda" is a truism. Obviously, the post furthers the writer's agenda in the sense that everything written advances a writer's beliefs. Golf clap.

    As usual, the failure of the TechDirt troll is not that he is trolling, but that he is too poor a thinker to say anything important when he trolls. Most people on TechDirt are smart, so the troll confuses stupidity with providing a fresh perspective.

     

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  40.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 8:50pm

    Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Because changing the ways computers network is TOTALLY COMPARABLE TO USING A FIREARM. Just think of all those data packets that are being killed horribly because the network gave me a new address! How awful and horrible!

    Here's an interesting tidbit: what Swartz did is something computers typically do automatically. Sometimes without you knowing it.

    Your computer could be "shooting it's internet gun" or whatever dumb comparison that I'm sure makes sense to luddites such as yourself, and you wouldn't know! You could be murdering so many innocent network configurations just by the very act of using your computer.

    But no, please, tell us about how this heinous crime inadvertently hurt real packets of data. Can you point to this doll and let us know where his MAC touched you?

     

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  41.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 8:52pm

    Re: Re: Re: Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    Unlike posting on the internet about how a much more successful person than yourself is "selfish and cowardly" when people such as him are the very reason you can post such diatribe.

    That takes true skill and courage, I'm sure.

     

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  42.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 8:55pm

    Re:

    I like how you call Masnick the sick mother fucker but then go up and down the comment page posting about how Aaron was a coward and accusing him of committing illegal acts now that he can't defend himself anymore.

    I sure am glad we have downies such as yourself to post here,

    I couldn't make half as believable satire of your ridiculous, selfish, stupid, self-fulfilling arguments if I tried. Not without comparing you to various mental health patients, of course.

     

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  43.  
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    shane (profile), Jan 19th, 2013 @ 8:58pm

    Re: YUP

    It's not so much we, as in people that frequent this blog, need to ask, as there need to be more Americans asking.

    SOPA was interesting in a lot of ways. Perception is still important in politics. Enough attention gets things rolling.

    This country needs a LOT of reform, and people are just nowhere NEAR angry enough. I remember from all the way back in the 90's, people complaining, "where's the outrage?"

     

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  44.  
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    G Thompson (profile), Jan 19th, 2013 @ 9:24pm

    Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Your analogy couldn't be more wrong.

    To have the correct analogy you would need to equate changing your IP/MAC with changing your name. Though even then it is a very far stretch. The DoJ equated Aarons' IP/MAC changing with the changing of a vehicles Identifier Number (VIN) but even then they are totally wrong.

    An IP or a MAC are arbitrary non identifiers the are only relevant per session of any transmission and can change at whim between sessions. This is why no courts ANYWHERE have ever made the leap to say that IP/MAC's identify any person other than an actual device (and this is only prima facia evidence based on assumptions...like fingerprints actually and we all know how problematic they are now after the FBI cock-up in Spain] AT the instant of the log only since they are specifically time based.


    Therefore there is NO mens rae requirement for changing of MAC/IP since they are always legal to do so. Even if in the strange circumstance that you could state based on previous whatever that the intent MUST be there, the balance of proof is NO reasonable doubt and doubt is very much at the forefront since there are many more and reasonable reasons why it might be changed.

    Though I suspect you knew all that and your own state of mind was instead to be vindictive, malicious and trollish

     

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  45.  
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    Mike Masnick (profile), Jan 19th, 2013 @ 9:55pm

    Re:

    My most sincere hope for you is that, in your life, when someone important to *you* passes away unexpectedly, and you seek to honor their memory, some anonymous internet coward does not say the kinds of things you have chosen to say here today.

    I honestly would never wish such a feeling on anyone, nor can I fathom the sort of person who thinks that such actions are reasonable or called for.

    I recognize why you are doing it, but I sincerely hope you never get to be on the other side of such treatment.

     

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    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 10:10pm

    Re: Re: Re: Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    Please stop exploiting this kid's death to try and further the copytheft agenda.

     

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    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 10:13pm

    Re: Re: Re: Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    Excuse me?

    You people are trying to turn this fucked up kid into a martyr; you're exploiting him.

    You want to see a sick fucker? Go look in the mirror or stare at Masnick's headshot.

     

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  48.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 10:14pm

    Re:

    Says the irrationally angry troll.

     

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  49.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 10:16pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    It takes some balls to try to stand on the moral high ground from the lowest depths of disgusting shamelessness.

     

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  50.  
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    G Thompson (profile), Jan 19th, 2013 @ 10:48pm

    Re: Re:

    I think you have shown great restraint in all of these posts you have made this week. A week that would of been extremely difficult for you with your own personal losses and dealing with and trying to stay as unbiased and unemotional as you have been in relation to Aaron whom you also knew.

    I think we all should be grateful that you have enough grace, fortitude, and strength to even have done any posts this week let alone not bring down a rain of abuse on any of these people (and I won't even call them trolls any more since they are worse) who have nothing better to add to a discussion then vitriolic hate against anything or anyone that doesn't conform to their world view.

    Kudos to you my, even though we have never met, friend.

     

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  51.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 10:53pm

    Re:

    You're just mad that SOPA's dead, darryl. I hear that games were recently introduced to Australia - just makes your dick sad, doesn't it?

     

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  52.  
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    That Anonymous Coward (profile), Jan 19th, 2013 @ 11:32pm

    Re: YUP

    The DOJ has a rule on the books because they hid evidence material to a case from the defendant. It made their case look bad. They got caught, made a rule... they have caught some still hiding evidence and no ones been fired.

    If you subvert Justice how the hell do you still have a job with DOJ?

    I think the old adage of lets nuke it from orbit and start over is better.

     

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  53.  
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    apauld, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 11:33pm

    Re:

    Techdirt's coverage of this event was surprisingly muted compared to many other sites. Probably due to the fact that techdirt covers what other people online are saying. I realize that you do not understand what I just wrote; but I felt compelled say it anyway, and thank you for furthering the cause of freedom through your almost unbelievable stupidity.
    Paul.D.

     

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  54.  
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    apauld, Jan 19th, 2013 @ 11:43pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    I am just guessing, but I'd guess you have some sort of bizarre fecal/zoophilia fetish? Because everything you write is complete bullshit.

     

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  55.  
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    That Anonymous Coward (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 12:07am

    I am saddened by this horrible loss, and not even a little bit surprised at the response of our resident trolls.

    Let me boil this down for your handlers...

    You have gone to far, and your indifference for human life will help rally even those who supported you to align against you.

    So feel free to keep spewing crap, push us that much further.

    Copyright is not more important than a life, and that you can not process that simple fact should make you weep. Instead you will weep as everything you've built to protect your empire is ripped away, and barriers will be put in place to stop you from trying to do it again.

     

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  56.  
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    G Thompson (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 12:20am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    I was thinking bestiality, bondage and necrophilia..

    Cause it loves beating a dead horse

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 2:04am

    Re: Re:

    fact is suicide is a highly cowardly and selfish act, there is no real excuse for it. I is not a good thing, and I do not look on someone who has suicided any worse, but I do feel deeply for the people he left behind and the issues they will have to deal with for the rest of their lives.

    but what is far worse, is someone trying to gain advantage from this tragedy. This is what Masnick is seeking to do..

     

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    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 2:07am

    Re: Re:

    I could not care less about SOPA or any other organization, I have never been affected by them, I just don't care.

    It seems though that Masnick cares about it so much he is willing to take advantage of a tragic death by suicide to achieve that advantage, and to spin this for his own advantage..

    I don't even know or care what SOPA stands for or what it does or did.

    So it is dead ?? seems to be a lot of that going around.

     

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  59.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 2:09am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    I am more successful that him, I am still alive. I don't see killing yourself at a young age is something to strive for, or to be proud of.

     

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    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 2:17am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    hey, I am just quoting what Masnick said, he own words, like them or not, that is what he said.

    So if I am a sicko for quoting Masnick's comments, what is Masnick ?

     

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    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 2:21am

    Re: Re:

    what this person important to you or important to your agenda ?

    Seems like it's the later, as you did not even pick him for a post of the week !.
    Never got around to it, how many times have you had dark hamlet on it ?? 10 or 20 ??

    You have not even tried to honour his memory you are trying very hard to honour his cause as you perceive it.

    I have been on the other side of it, and I am sure they were closer friends to me that this person was to you.

    But I did not try to use their death's to advance my own goals, as you have done here.

     

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  62.  
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    G Thompson (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 2:26am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    If as Samuel Clements stated "All you need is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure" then yes I agree you must be highly successful.

    If on the other hand success is measured on not how you lived but instead what you have accomplished and done within the span of your life to enhance the human condition to become immortal, then you based on your comments are an abject failure

     

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  63.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 3:23am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Swartz is a martyr for freedom and basic democratic principles, whether by his own actions or by the actions of the DoJ.

    Whether this is the spark that sets the tinder of progressive online legalisms is another matter.

     

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  64.  
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    yaga (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 5:38am

    Future deeds

    He accomplished so much, but the really distressing point is how much more all of us expected him to accomplish in the future, and how we will all be worse off without that happening.

    I'm going to say something that will be unpopular but I believe it needs to be said. I am upset about Aaron's suicide, less than some, more than others, but we really shouldn't talk about his future. First, even though he had shown the ability to keep himself relevant in the tech field, he might have found other passions as he grew older. It's unlikely but a possibility because I've seen life events like getting married, having kids, getting a serious illness, etc. change a person's outlooks and goals. Second, a lot of what I keep hearing or reading is about other's expectations for Aaron. That's not fair to throw your expectations for another's life into your stories. Even if his closest friends said that he talked about doing this or wanted to work on that, it doesn't actually mean that he would have gotten around to it. Finally, we're not ALL better for his previous work and we certainly won't ALL be worse off for not having his unknown future acts become reality. For instance, everyone talks about his part of RSS and how important that is for the world but in reality only a small portion of a small subset of the population use RSS. So we're not ALL better for it. He's really credited with fighting SOPA but again that fight didn't help ALL of us except in the most roundabout way. We don't know what or if he would have done anything in the future so we can't be worse off for something that we don't know was going to happen.

    I just think we need to stop romanticising people and focus on what they did and how their legacy can inspire others to either carry on the work they started or to go after their own goals/dreams. In fact, I'd love to see a story about how Aaron's suicide has focused/refocused Mike and the TechDirt staff and what they would like to do in the future. They're still here with us so it's their expectations for themselves that can still make a difference.

     

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  65.  
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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 5:48am

    Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    It has to do with WHY you did what you did, and if he changed his IP and MAC because he was trying to hide his identity and cover up a crime then it is wrong. And a crime.

    Covering up what crime exactly in Aaron's case? The crime of violating an unseen, unsigned and unacknowledged TOS on a ridiculously wide open network?

    Or are you talking about that mysterious, unwritten crime of felony interference with a business model?

     

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  66.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 5:54am

    Re: Re: Re:

    SOPA's not an organisation, dumbshit. And considering that in the time close to its passing you were jizzing your pants at the thought of it becoming law, so no cigar, you unimaginative shitstain.

    Why don't you make well on that New Year's resolution and go feed yourself to vultures?

     

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  67.  
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    The Ultimate Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 5:55am

    A form of justice?

    It has come to my attention that the alt.usenet.kooks Usenet newsgroup has nominated the United States Department of Justice for their "Bobo Award", which is the "highest" of their awards and is given only to those kooks whose online looniness leads to bad real-life consequences. The previous "winner" was Andrew Cheung, the starvation-diet proponent who ended up causing several deaths. The reason for the DOJ's Bobo nomination is, of course, having driven Aaron Swartz to suicide.

    The nominating post is available at Google Groups:
    http://groups.google.com/alt.usenet.kooks/msg/8c4a53aec01d0af0 is the individual message URL, or you can search for "bobo justice 2013" and it is fourth on the list, titled "Major Dual NOMINATIONS". (Warning: that thread has several trolls posting to it.)

    People might be interested in voting for those clowns at the DOJ when the awards are voted on, I think in February.

    You might also be interested that the author of the nomination extensively cites Techdirt's own coverage of the story in support of her arguments.

    (Note: voting would require making Usenet posts to a newsgroup known to harbor its own share of stalkers and nutjobs; you might want to take steps to protect your identity, not from the government but from other kooks. Free news server AIOE requires some configuration but obscures your posting IP and allows arbitrary "from" names, without signup; Google Groups is easy to use if you're not familiar with Usenet, but exposes your posting IP, so you might want to use a proxy of some sort if you vote from there, or to post from a public WiFi some distance from both your home and work.)

     

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  68.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 7:26am

    Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Actually on the Volokh discussion, I actually saw some try to justify "Felony interference with a business model."

    Amazing.

     

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  69.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 7:41am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    They don't stand on moral ground. They only claim to stand there. They know not what morals even are much less have any. They believe in Machavellian methods which are the antithesis of morality.

     

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  70.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 7:53am

    Re: Re: Re:

    WOW. That's all I can say about that. Just wow.

    Here's a tip...

    If you don't know what something is, LOOK IT UP before you comment on it.

    There's a Mark Twain quote applicable here but I'm not going to use it or even link to it as the troll obviously needs practice using Google.

     

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  71.  
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    Trails (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 8:00am

    Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    You analogy is idiotic on its face. A gun is a weapon, you can't change your MAC address "at" someone.

     

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  72.  
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    Trails (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 8:03am

    Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    It has to do with WHY you did what you did, and if he changed his IP and MAC because he was trying to hide his identity and cover up a crime then it is wrong. And a crime.


    No, and no. If you commit a crime, the crime is the crime. Duh.

    If you cross the street on the way to a robbery, is the act of crossing the street wrong? No. If you commit a robbery, the robbery is wrong. Crossing the street is just crossing the street.

     

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  73.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 8:13am

    Re: Future deeds

    Now, if only people could criticize like this, more shit would get done.

     

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  74.  
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    Trails (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 8:27am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    Please stop railroading young people who point out the sheer idiocy of your maximalist agenda.

     

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    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 8:30am

    Re: Re:

    My most sincere hope for you is that, in your life, when someone important to *you* passes away unexpectedly, and you seek to honor their memory, some anonymous internet coward does not say the kinds of things you have chosen to say here today.

    I honestly would never wish such a feeling on anyone, nor can I fathom the sort of person who thinks that such actions are reasonable or called for.

    I recognize why you are doing it, but I sincerely hope you never get to be on the other side of such treatment.


    Nobody is milking this more than you. Nobody. That should tell you something. There's talking about it in a productive way, and then there's milking it for everything you can get out of it. You're doing the latter, and you know it. Can you point to any other person on earth who has written about it even half as much as you? No. That's your answer. You're abusing this just like you did everything during the SOPA debacle. You grab onto anything you can and milk it for all it's worth. You should be ashamed of yourself, but I know you lack whatever it is that allows normal people to feel shame. All you know how to do is manipulate people. All you do is capitalize on everything you can to further your agenda. An agenda, of course, that you're too scared to talk about substantively and productively. Stop being such a fucking coward. Start actually being open, human, and awesome. You never will be, I know. But I wish you could be.

     

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  76.  
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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 8:36am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Actually on the Volokh discussion, I actually saw some try to justify "Felony interference with a business model."

    Too funny.

    Here is my take on the whole JSTOR/MIT/Swartz affair and please feel free to correct me or dispute me because I have still not decided if what Arron did was "wrong" in my own mind.

    - JSTOR offered unlimited downloading for those on MIT's network.
    - MIT's had (has?) a very open network policy that lacked "even basic controls to prevent abuse". I also believe that MIT's network didn't require registration or even have a clickwrap TOS.

    Given those two facts, any user on MIT's network has access to unlimited downloading of JSTOR docs and basically anybody can access MIT's network. How was Arron acting illegally by conforming to the terms set before him? It seems to me that this boils down to a TOS violation or contractual dispute between JSTOR and MIT, and didn't even involve the end user of MIT's network.

    Now as for the part about accessing the closet, that could very well be construed as trespassing.

    My mind is not quite as clear on the "illegal accessing of the network" part though. It was an open network, anyways. Most likely the same results could have been achieved by befriending a student with a dorm room or even with the public access computers in the library.

     

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    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 8:57am

    Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    By itself, changing your IP and MAC address is not wrong, just as discharging a firearm at a gun range is not wrong.

    But it is your intent that makes all the difference.

    You can discharge a gun at a range, but if you point that gun at a person at a gun range and discharge it, it is murder.

    It has to do with WHY you did what you did, and if he changed his IP and MAC because he was trying to hide his identity and cover up a crime then it is wrong. And a crime.

    I know it's a bit hard for you to understand these things, but try to keep up please.


    Of course. Mike tries to brush the whole thing off as something someone might do while troubleshooting their network. What a stupid argument. The point is that he did it to avoid detection after he knew for a fact that they were trying to stop him. Mike can't be honest about any of this, though, because Mike is a fundamentally dishonest person.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 8:59am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    Please stop exploiting this kid's death to try and further the copytheft agenda.

    Mike will exploit anyone and anything to squeeze out everything he can. And he's, of course, too intellectually dishonest to admit it. Or anything, for that matter.

     

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  79.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:05am

    Re: Re: Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    What an incredibly selfish act. Making his girlfriend discover him dead?

    Because he didn't want to do 6 months for breaking the law?

    Real upstanding hero you guys have there.


    Well, in fairness he did suffer from depression but it does seem like he was pretty soft.

     

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  80.  
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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:07am

    Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Tell me, do you know anything at all about computers? I do, have been working with them for 20 years now, I built one. Changing IP addresses and MACs is a perfectly legitimate function of a computer. What if Swartz was plugged in with an ethernet cable, and yanked it out? I myself have changed IP addresses when my network connection dropped (no, I did not think anybody was trying "to stop me". Its a perfectly legitimate action to do in response to a network error). Would you then condemn that action?


    No, what you are doing is trying to attack Mike with anything you can grab onto. You parse through what he writes, see something that looks even the least bit controversial, and then go apeshit over it, without bothering to put any logic or reason into whatever it is you're saying. Swartz himself and what he did or did not do means nothing to you: only what Mike writes about him.

     

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  81.  
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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:10am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    The troll(s) hate Google, hate any mention of a piece of advanced technology that might somehow possibly be used to copy files, whether legal or illegal.
    Which is why I don't believe anything they say. The cost to society of making sure that people don't copy certain files is far too high: retardation of scientific progress, loss of basic human rights, no due process in a court of law, vilification amongst your peers for merely being accused, etc.

     

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  82.  
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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:11am

    Re: Future deeds

    Bravo. You said what the trolls possibly meant to say, and said it in a decent and polite manner. I don't agree with you, but I applaud what you say nonetheless. The fuckers up above...they can burn in hell for all I care.

     

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  83.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:12am

    Re: Future deeds

    I respect your perspective, however, the fact remains that Aaron DID accomplish A LOT in his short life and obviously was a doer that not only talked about accomplishing things but took action to accomplish them. And while it is true that many things happen that impact our lives which change its course, our past is still an indication of the direction of our future.

    You also underrate the impact of RSS. While true that the percentage of people that use RSS by setting up RSS feeds or subscribing to them directly may be low, what you fail to take into account is all of the people that are impacted by using technology based off of RSS. (Uh... Hello... Twitter?). When you take that into account, the impact is MUCH higher.

    So while I agree with your comment about not romanticizing and instead focusing on what we who are still here can do to impact our future in a positive way, I have to respectfully disagree with how you arrive there.

     

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  84.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:14am

    Re: Re: Future deeds

    It takes decency to compose something like that - something the trolls will never have.

     

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  85.  
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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:14am

    Re: Re: Re:

    You were, are and will be affected by SOPA-like laws (laws, not an ORGANIZATION, dumbass!) what with the erosion of civil liberties, the lack of due process, punishment upon accusation, and the stonewalling of those in the legal system when called out on their bullshit.
    All of that is far worse than whether or not that movie I downloaded to watch a couple days ago "cost" an actor a few bucks.

     

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  86.  
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    weneedhelp - not signed in, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:18am

    Re: Re: Re:

    "I don't even know or care what SOPA stands for or what it does or did." - Yeah neither did congress but they were paid, so they tried to pass it anyway.

    "So it is dead ?? seems to be a lot of that going around."- Disgusting. You are worse than anything you accuse us of doing. One can only hope you lose a child one day.

    Your Mother must be so proud. /s

     

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  87.  
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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:19am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Let's try and make a stupid real-world analogy.

    Swartz walks down a hall-way, sees a door with a sign saying "Tax-payer funded research documents inside, FREE TO TAKE/COPY!". He jiggles the handle, finds it unlocked, goes in and copies the files. A few times, the door mysteriously closes, but each time, he figures out a way to get it open again: by using the door knob, by propping a book between the door and the frame, etc. All perfectly legal and legitimate actions to take.
    At worst, yes, he might be charged with trespassing (then again, what with there being no notice on the door saying access is restricted...)

     

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  88.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:19am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Ok then I should have told him to go to a library... Wait... Shit! They hate those too. Well then I guess they are SOL since the hate anything that can be useful to self education.

     

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  89.  
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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:20am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    You're quoting them...and then twisting everything he says.

     

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  90.  
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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:24am

    Re: Re: Re:

    " Start actually being open" says the anonymous coward who won't bother putting his name to his words.
    So what if Mike has an agenda? We all have agendas. You, me, that guy in the cubicle next to you. We all have things we plan to do, things to aim for. Are you saying Mike shouldn't have a plan, a goal?
    Mike is writing about Aaron in a productive way, demanding that the CFAA law be amended so the legal system can't use it to bully other people.


    No, according to you, its alright for laws to be bought and sold by copyright maximilists, but the instant someone tries to tip the scales in the other direction...GOOGLE GOOGLE! BIG CORPORATIONS BUYING CORRUPT POLITICIANS!

     

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  91.  
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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:27am

    Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    The point is that he did it to avoid detection after he knew for a fact that they were trying to stop him.

    How are you equating "trying to stop him" with "illegal activity?"

    They were simply trying to stop the large volume being downloaded. They were not revoking his rights to be connected to the network. That's kind of hard do to when there is no authorization actually given in the first place.

     

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  92.  
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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:29am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    "I am more successful that him,"

    Okay, what acts of greatness have you accomplished? What is your success rate? Just who the fuck are you then?
    For the record, I also see suicide as something not to be proud of, but I don't speak ill of the dead like you bastards are. Yes, let's be like you, and focus entirely on the fact this guy killed himself, let's completely ignore everything he accomplished in his short life, completely ignore any and all possible motivations he may have had in doing the deed.

     

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  93.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:44am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    The only sick fucker I see is you, sick fucker.

    Go stand outside in the snow for awhile and cool your head off.

     

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  94.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:45am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    One of the more interesting parts of the Volokh discussion was the attempts to support the claim that because he hid his face from the camera and he ran from the police, he KNEW he was committing a crime and had a willful disregard for the law.

    One of my counter arguments was that his actions indicated that he didn't want to be arrested, but that is not the same as knowing you are committing a crime as people are arrested for filming the police when it is not against the law.

    Furthermore, if he had such a blatant disregard for the law, believing that the ends justified his means as long as he could avoid being caught, as they were suggesting, why then did he not simply create a virus that would create a mini bon-net on their network, requesting documents periodically at a rate low enough not to arouse suspicion and relay them to various remote locations. While this would blatantly violate the CFAA, it would decrease the chances of being caught by requiring only one access to the network to upload the virus and distribute the process such that it had less of a chance of being detected and this sort of action would have been well within his skill set. No one responded.

     

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  95.  
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    silverscarcat (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:46am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    copytheft?!

    Fuck you, copyright apologist.

    Go outside and wait for the people with the white jackets to show up.

     

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  96.  
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    silverscarcat (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:49am

    Re: Re: Re: Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    While I do think that suicide is the easy way out, after all, living is hard to do, in this case, while I normally have no sympathy for people who commit suicide, I have even less for those who drive people to suicide.

    And what little sympathy I have for them doesn't even exist for people who blame the people who killed themselves.

    So, what I'm trying to say is this...

    People like you make the world a worse place.

     

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  97.  
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    silverscarcat (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:50am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    "The MPAA and RIAA will exploit anyone and anything to squeeze out everything they can. And, of course, they're too intellectually dishonest to admit it. Or anything, for that matter."

    So, so true man. So, so true.

    Now we just need to get rid of Copyright Apologists and the world might start to become a better place.

    Hey, gotta go one step at a time.

     

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  98.  
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    silverscarcat (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:52am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Question for you...

    HOW is Mike taking advantage of this? WHAT agenda is he pushing?

    Please, do inform us, and if you do, keep all FUD out of the reply, use actual information.

     

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  99.  
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    silverscarcat (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:55am

    Re: Future deeds

    I might not agree with everything, but I'll give you a +1 insightful because your argument isn't laden with usual troll attacks.

     

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  100.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 10:22am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Well, Rikuo, technically that AC does have a name. You know him, I know him, we all do. Just look at the key phrases and words he's using, it becomes rather obvious who it (most likely) is. It's AJ.

    He has a habit of not signing in. Or better said, "I'm not signed in automatically on this computer." (Because we all know how hard it is to sign in on a computer that isn't your primary one. [rolls eyes])

    But yeah, that's my opinion on who it is. The fact that he is constantly using the words "open and honest" and essentially bitching about that, as well as some use of what I could call "legalisms" in discussing what Aaron was doing and whether or not he knew he was doing something illegal. All those things are routinely done/used by AJ, to the point that I would with 95% certainty say it is AJ. Writing styles are like finger prints. No two people have the same one. They may have similar styles, and some people can emulate the writing styles of others to a remarkable degree, but at the end of the day everyone's is truly unique and even the best attempts at emulating the writing style of another fall short and the differences, however subtle, can be noted which allow others to tell someone is attempting to write like somebody else. (A great example of that would be Eoin Colfer's take on the Hitchhiker's Guide. It's written in a Douglas Adams' writing style, but it's just not Douglas Adams. The attempt is there, but sadly, or maybe not so sadly, it falls short of the mark. It's pretty much done right, but there's just something missing.)

     

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  101.  
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    RadialSkid (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 10:50am

    Re: Re: Re: Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    There's nothing "cowardly" about suicide. Dying by your own hand and facing the great unknown by choice is about as far from cowardice as one can get.

    Any idiot can run from death and stay alive...especially if staying alive serves the agenda of sick motherfuckers like you.

     

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  102.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 11:07am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    If he works in marketing surely he should be fired. Attacking the audience is not really a sales pitch for your position.

     

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  103.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 11:56am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Oh, you're not wrong. That is most definitely AJ. His writing style and trollish manner of communicating on this site is unmistakable. He communicates with a level of vitriol, hatred and contempt that makes me wonder just what kind of person he is in real life. Does he really communicate this way with everyone he comes in contact with or is it just the anonymous nature of the internet at work here?

    Whenever I read his self-righteous and abusive posts, I wonder why he thinks he is having any impact on discussions here. Sure, we get angry and post responses to his rants. But, his behavior has gotten so cartoonish as to not even be worthy of taking seriously or paying much attention to, other than to warn new visitors what to expect from him.

    I'll just leave this here. It seems fitting.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4gN_yc_7ug

     

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  104.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 12:02pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    And by "they" I mean the IP maximalist trolls.

     

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  105.  
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    ldne, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 12:04pm

    Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Do you actually know anything about this case? The guy didn't break any laws, his behavior was rude and discourteous regarding the quantity of downloads, but MIT had a wide open network that gave anyone on it with any wifi enabled computer authorized access to JSTORS through a deal between them and MIT. Anyone could get on there and do what he did, easily. MIT's system didn't notify the guy of anything when they decided to block his address, so he wouldn't even know for certain if he was dodging them by changing it or if changing it simply fixed a connection problem. They were threatening the gut with thirty years for copying files he had legal access to due to the network configuration and licensing arrangements in place at MIT and JSTORS. It's like threatening to jail you for thirty years for using the photo copier at the library too much.

     

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  106.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 12:15pm

    Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Not to make light of an obvious tragedy, it does seem a bit disingenuous to say that one with his expertise would not realize that actions were being taken to prevent his further access.

     

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    silverscarcat (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 12:22pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    What goals is Mike advancing?

     

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  108.  
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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 12:24pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    He may or may not have known, but what he couldn't possibly have known is that the US government would have threatened him with upwards of 30 years in prison for a mere act of downloading some publicly funded research.
    Then again, how would he have known if the network admins didn't put up warning signs saying he's hogging bandwidth? Back when I was on a very limited data cap, I'd get warnings from the ISP when I was getting close to the limit. They wouldn't just disconnect me randomly, they'd warn me first. If I was being disconnected randomly, my first thought is that there's some sort of problem with my connection, not that someone is deliberately hindering me.

     

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  109.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 12:26pm

    I rather doubt anything Mr. Kerr said or could have said would dissuade persons from declaring the legal case against Mr. Swartz was bogus/garbage from the start.

    Surprisingly, I have yet to read any article traversing the legal points raised by Mr. Kerr in his consideration of the grand jury indictment against Mr. Swartz. I have read many laments about the loss of a very talented and respected individual, but these in and of themselves do not refute Mr. Kerr's legal points.

    In no way should anything here be interpreted as my being insensitive to this obvious tragedy. My comment is limited solely to Mr. Kerr's first article at Volokh concerning the legal sufficiency of the indictment.

     

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  110.  
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    The Groove Tiger (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 12:28pm

    Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Of course, just like hitting Refresh in your browser is akin to masturbation, hitting Refresh while having unlicensed intentions is more like raping an innocent underage boy!

    It all makes sense now.

     

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  111.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 1:15pm

    Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Sounds like you're conflating your favorite activities with what actually happened.

     

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  112.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 1:16pm

    Re:

    Surprisingly, I have yet to read any article traversing the legal points raised by Mr. Kerr in his consideration of the grand jury indictment against Mr. Swartz. I have read many laments about the loss of a very talented and respected individual, but these in and of themselves do not refute Mr. Kerr's legal points.

    That's right. Mike pretends like Kerr's analysis is unsound, but then he doesn't actually refute the arguments. Nor do I think he can.

     

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  113.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 1:18pm

    Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Yes or no: Do you believe that Aaron believed at all times that it was 100% legal for him to scrape that database?

     

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  114.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 1:18pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Of course he knew. Just like he knew what he was doing was a crime evidenced by him trying to conceal his identity and then running from the cops to avoid being apprehended.

     

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  115.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 1:38pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    He has a habit of not signing in. Or better said, "I'm not signed in automatically on this computer." (Because we all know how hard it is to sign in on a computer that isn't your primary one. [rolls eyes])

    I'm not signed in because I chose to not be signed in. It's a conscious decision.

     

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  116.  
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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 1:39pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Yes or no: Do you believe that at all times, you are commmitting no action for which the government can pursue you and threaten you with decades of imprisonment?
    At worst, an intelligent fellow like Swartz would have thought he could only be charged with trespassing and thus, the required punishment would be small. At no point would he have thought "Gosh, the government might want to put me away for 30-50 years for what I'm about to do"
    And if he had had...that only strengthens the arguments of those of us at Techdirt at how twisted, abusive and destructive the US government has become.

     

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  117.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 1:47pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    One of the more interesting parts of the Volokh discussion was the attempts to support the claim that because he hid his face from the camera and he ran from the police, he KNEW he was committing a crime and had a willful disregard for the law.

    Evidence is probative if "it has any tendency to make a fact more or less probable than it would be without the evidence." FRE 401. Him covering his face tends to make it more probable that he knew he was committing a crime because that's what a person who know they are committing crime a would do. Just like the bank robber with the ski mask. It could that it's cold outside, but it's more likely that he knows there's cameras and he doesn't want to be filmed while he commits his crime. This stuff isn't hard.

    One of my counter arguments was that his actions indicated that he didn't want to be arrested, but that is not the same as knowing you are committing a crime as people are arrested for filming the police when it is not against the law.

    He feared being arrested because he knew that what he was doing appeared to be illegal because he knew it was illegal. Those databases are private property. They cost millions and millions of dollars to maintain. The school pays for a subscription because there is value there. If someone "liberates" that database, they take the value of that database without having to pay for it. That's inherently wrong. This stuff isn't hard.

     

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  118.  
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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 2:11pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Yes or no: Do you believe that Aaron believed at all times that it was 100% legal for him to scrape that database?


    I can't say. I wouldn't know his precise intentions.

    But I can say if it was me, I would understand that what I was doing was perhaps a civil infraction (copyright infringement, not even real sure of that one since there was never any plans to distribute and he technically had permission for unlimited downloads) and perhaps minor misdemeanor charges (trespassing).

    And if I felt the cause to be just enough I would certainly risk that as a form of civil disobedience.

    What would have never crossed my mind in a million years is that what I was doing deserved 50 fucking years of hard time in Federal prison.

     

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  119.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 2:29pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    So you think that he downloaded a database worth tens of millions of dollars but that he didn't know that he was committing a crime? I don't buy it.

     

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  120.  
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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 2:38pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    If someone "liberates" that database, they take the value of that database without having to pay for it. That's inherently wrong. This stuff isn't hard.

    You're being simplistic. Intentions play a huge part into determining if something is "inherently wrong".

    What if Aaron's only intention was to bring attention to such knowledge being locked in that fashion by using a minor act of civil disobedience as the catalyst?

     

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  121.  
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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 2:46pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    So you think that he downloaded a database worth tens of millions of dollars but that he didn't know that he was committing a crime?

    Once again, what crime? Felony interference with a business model? Sorry, but there isn't actually a law such as that, you do know that, right?

     

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  122.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 2:48pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    What crimes? The ones he was charged with. Think about it.

     

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  123.  
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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 3:05pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    What crimes? The ones he was charged with. Think about it.

    I take the indictment for what it is - the prosecution's side of the story, nothing more, nothing less.

    Until an admission of guilt or a judgment of conviction, the prosecution's side is merely suppositions and accusations.

    I'm trying to make up my own mind about this case.

     

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  124.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 3:08pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    No one, not even his mentor Lessig believes that Swartz was somehow unaware he was being deliberately thwarted. It is only desperate people like you who can't admit it because it would reflect badly on Swartz who was obviously and knowingly engaged in deliberate wrongdoing.

     

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  125.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 3:11pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    What if Aaron's only intention was to bring attention to such knowledge being locked in that fashion by using a minor act of civil disobedience as the catalyst?

    What if my only intention in selling 500 lbs of marijuana was to draw attention to my belief that marijuana should be legalized? That Ok?

     

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  126.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 3:24pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    I recommend starting with this: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=399740

    Even if Swartz was permitted to access the database, that doesn't mean that it was legal for him to do whatever he wanted with it. JSTOR employed code-based restrictions to limit the scope of permitted uses, such as by using measures to prevent database scraping of the sort that Swartz wanted to do. Swartz bypassed these measures so he could scrape the database. That's hacking. That's a crime.

     

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  127.  
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    Greevar (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 3:55pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    You're delusional. Conformation bias abound.

     

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  128.  
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    Greevar (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 3:57pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Gah, confirmation*

     

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  129.  
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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 4:00pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    I recommend starting with this: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=399740

    Very intreasting link. Thank you. I have read the abstract and will read the full paper later.


    JSTOR employed code-based restrictions to limit the scope of permitted uses, such as by using measures to prevent database scraping of the sort that Swartz wanted to do. Swartz bypassed these measures so he could scrape the database. That's hacking. That's a crime.

    Well it may be hacking. But as for a crime - that's where I vacillate.

    Even if the supposed code-based restrictions where in place, were not users of MIT's network granted unlimited downloads? It seems that these code-based restrictions you speak of only flagged heavy downloaders and they appeared to have worked. I'm not convinced Aaron "bypassed" anything, really.

     

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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 4:07pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    What if my only intention in selling 500 lbs of marijuana was to draw attention to my belief that marijuana should be legalized? That Ok?

    Not quite the same, Sparky.

    If your intention was to get arrested smoking one joint as civil disobedience knowing it was only a misdemeanor and the Feds hit you with 20 counts of intent to distribute, your analogy might begin to be close.

     

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  131.  
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    Trails (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 4:16pm

    Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Doesn't matter the intent. Changing you IP address and MAC address are not wrong. Your intent could be world domination, changing your networking configs is. not. wrong.

     

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  132.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 4:27pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    so why commit suicide for changing your IP and MAC address ??

     

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  133.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 4:36pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    you might want to read article Masnick wrote, I assume you hve not.

     

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  134.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 4:40pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Even if the supposed code-based restrictions where in place, were not users of MIT's network granted unlimited downloads? It seems that these code-based restrictions you speak of only flagged heavy downloaders and they appeared to have worked. I'm not convinced Aaron "bypassed" anything, really.

    No, the system was set up to disallow heavy downloading. He circumvented that restriction with his "keepgrabbing.py" script. That's hacking. A person could not do heavy downloading without bypassing the code that prevented it. He bypassed that code with his own code.

    They blocked his IP address. He got a new one. They blocked a whole range of IP addresses and blocked his MAC address. He spoofed his MAC address. They blocked all of MIT's access. He went into a closet and hard wired access to the network. That's bypassing too.

    Not sure how you're not seeing any bypassing.

     

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  135.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 4:42pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    I notice that you completely ignore the part about a more effective way of accomplishing the goal with less chance of being caught disproving a blatant disregard for the law.

     

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  136.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 4:42pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    how am I twisting what he said, I posted EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID.

    it's possible it got twisted in your mind, between your eyes and brain.

    But he said what he said.. get over it.

     

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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 4:59pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Not sure how you're not seeing any bypassing.

    Fair enough.

    Thank you for the straight-to-the-point rebuttal. I will take your points into consideration.

     

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  138.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 5:00pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    I notice that you completely ignore the part about a more effective way of accomplishing the goal with less chance of being caught disproving a blatant disregard for the law.

    So because a criminal could have been sneakier, that shows that they weren't breaking the law? Your arguments just aren't persuasive. I ignored that argument because it's nonsensical. I doesn't matter what he didn't do. It only matters what he did do.

     

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  139.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 5:05pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    ive worked as a researcher to develop a new kind of Solar Cell that is more efficient, I have developed medical diagnosis system that will save lives. I have designed and built and installed system to provide early warning system for Dam failures, that will save possibly thousands of lives should the dam fail.

    I have repaired life critical communications system for shipping that will save lives by working as required when an emergency strikes.

    I have designed and build aid's for disabled people making their quality of life a great deal better than it was before.

    I have worked in the military saving boats and ships from desaster, and saved lives.

    I have been a fire fighter, helping to save peoples houses, their lives and the environment.

    I have no issues about what I have achieved in my life, and I have nothing to be embarrassed about nor have I even considered taking my own life, and screwing up many others lives by that selfish act.

    I have helped many many people prosper and be a success, I have done work to make people safer, and have worked to improve the environment.

    There are many, many other things I have done to improve peoples lives, help them (DIRECTLY) and to make their and YOUR life better and easier.

    I could go all day listing things I have done that directly and indirectly improves peoples lives, the environment, and that will continue to help and improve society.

    What did this guy do again ??? RSS and ???

    If I had of killed myself as a kid, I would not have done the things I have done, that has helped many people in many diffiernt but real way's.

    but this article is not about me, it's about someone else, so why ask me what I have achieved ?? I am NOT going to compare myself to someone who you honor for killing themselves. But as you asked I will give you some small examples of what I have done to improve the lives of other people, (significantly). Whereas you or the auther of this article does not seem to be able to list very much of what this person has done to actually help anyone or to improve the lives of people.

     

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  140.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 5:12pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    SOPA's not an organisation, dumbshit.

    See how much I dont care !!!!!

     

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  141.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 5:17pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    and the 9000 people killed by guns in the past month in the US is not (alot of that going around) ??

    One can only hope you lose a child one day.

    geezz, so you would like my children to die because I said something you disagree with ?? no, your not disgusting at all !!!!!!

    would you have said to the Aaron's parents ??

     

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  142.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 5:29pm

    Changing your IP address, and later your MAC address are valid ways of troubleshooting why something stopped working

    explain a situation in network fault diagnosis where you would be able to determine where the fault is by changing your IP or MAC address ? I've working in IT, computing and technology since the 1970's professionally, I have NEVER had to change the IP or MAC address to determine or diagnose a fault in the system or network.

    on the other hand if I wanted to hide my identity, the very first thing I would do is change my IP and MAC address as these are clear pathways (an identities) of the computing equipment you use.

    So, who is making strawman arguments about why he would change his IP and MAC ? Was he trying to fix a faulty network when he changed them (at different times), or was he trying to hide his identity ?

     

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  143.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 5:31pm

    Re:

    so someone rings up 'tech support', "my network has stopped working".

    No problems sir, just change your IP and MAC address that will fix it.

     

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  144.  
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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 5:34pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    I keep trying to put myself in the shoes of someone on the jury of this case had it ever went to trial.

    And I have to admit, this case would warrant considering jury nullification for me.

     

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  145.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 5:39pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    So you're OK with someone misappropriating a database that cost millions of dollars to create?

     

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  146.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 5:58pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    If they had features in place, such as captchas or automated throttling, then he wouldn't have been able to do what he did so no they didn't. All of the steps he took can easily be characterized as standard network troubleshooting so again, how is that hacking? Expert witnesses were ready to testify that nothing he had done had meant ANY reasonable definition for the term.

     

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  147.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 6:01pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Not the database, the contents of the database, which was in the public domain. There is a difference.

     

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  148.  
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    That One Guy (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 6:13pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Hey man, nothing wrong with hitting the old F5 every so often, as long as it's kept in moderation.

     

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  149.  
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    That One Guy (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 6:25pm

    Re: Re:

    Tell me about it, no one could ever refute Kerr's points and... what's that, such a link is right in the article?

    Mike didn't do so because someone else had already done it, something you'd know if you'd actually read the article.

    Here's the link, in case you don't care to look for it yourself:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-boyle/prosecution-aaron-swartz_b_2508242.html

     

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  150.  
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    The Groove Tiger (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 6:51pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Projecting much? :D

     

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  151.  
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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 6:56pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    So you're OK with someone misappropriating a database that cost millions of dollars to create?

    I'm not saying that. I'm weighing if the punishments fit the crimes.

    Wouldn't a civil lawsuit be the appropriate place to claim your supposed lost millions of dollars anyways?

     

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  152.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 7:09pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    No we just hope he never breeds.

     

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  153.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 7:11pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    9000? Exaggerate much? Got a citation for that number?

     

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  154.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 7:13pm

    Re:

    I did.

     

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  155.  
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    Leigh Beadon (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 7:22pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I'm not signed in because I chose to not be signed in. It's a conscious decision.

    Best to retain some level of culpable deniability when being this huge of an asshole, I guess...

     

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  156.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 7:40pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    You've routinely indicated that you have the logic processes and linguistic capability of a piece of toilet paper with the shit smear still fresh on it.

    But hey, keep on playing with Barbie dolls in your head. No one's going to fall for that uncitationed claptrap.

     

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  157.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 7:42pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    For someone who claims to have been both a researcher and military personnel you have a staggering disregard for accuracy.

    Unless, of course, you're actually neither.

     

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  158.  
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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 7:46pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    Here's the link, in case you don't care to look for it yourself:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-boyle/prosecution-aaron-swartz_b_2508242.html


    It's kinda funny.

    I just now finally got a chance follow that link and that article is more or less the side of the argument I've been arguing for two days now. Could have saved myself a shitload of time linking to that. Damn.

     

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  159.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 7:46pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    So why didn't he just download a single paper, instead of millions and millions?

    You aren't very good at this, are you numb nuts?

     

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  160.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 7:51pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    So much for the Techdirt commitment to free speech and right to anonymity. Like most of their ideals "it depends".

     

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  161.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 7:56pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    So Rikou, what is important to you here? A meaningless name like "Rikou" or do you think he should use his true name? How does it matter? What is said anonymously is anonymous whether it is a pseudonym unique to an individual or simply "anonymous coward". I assume that you know the little snowflake thingy follows a poster throughout the thread.

     

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  162.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 7:59pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Not the database, the contents of the database, which was in the public domain. There is a difference.

    Some things were in the public domain and some things were copyrighted. So what? Even if every single document in that database were in the public domain--which is not even close to the reality--that wouldn't change the analysis one iota. He wasn't charged with infringement. He was charged with wire fraud, hacking, etc.

     

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  163.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 7:59pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    Tell me about it, no one could ever refute Kerr's points and... what's that, such a link is right in the article?

    Mike didn't do so because someone else had already done it, something you'd know if you'd actually read the article.

    Here's the link, in case you don't care to look for it yourself:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-boyle/prosecution-aaron-swartz_b_2508242.html


    I've read that. Where does he show that Kerr's legal analysis is wrong? He doesn't.

     

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  164.  
    icon
    Gwiz (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 8:00pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    So why didn't he just download a single paper, instead of millions and millions?


    Because that would pretty much be the definition of "civil obedience".

    And then you claim I'm not very good at this. WTG!

     

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  165.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 8:00pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Best to retain some level of culpable deniability when being this huge of an asshole, I guess...

    I may sign in later today, or I may never sign in again. Big deal.

     

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  166.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 8:02pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Yeah, but the prosecutor would have smoked you out as a craven piracy apologist during void dire.

     

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  167.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 8:20pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    Fine. Want a cookie? So if you truly have done all of these things then I guess you feel that it entitles you to spew the kind of vicious crap that you have here. Lovely sense of morality you have there. Please do the rest of the world a favor, do not attempt to raise children as the world already has enough people with mental issues from inept parental figures.

     

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  168.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 8:31pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Actually, if you read Kerr's analysis, in quoting the decision in Seidlitz, Seidlitz hinged on whether the content acquired was the "property" of OSI implying (though Kerr fails to mention it) that had the content NOT been modified into something that was uniquely theirs, the copying would not have constituted wire fraud. So how exactly then does public domain material acquired here constitute wire fraud?

     

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  169.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 8:39pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    And how exactly do you know that what was taken was copyrighted? Are you privy to the list of specific articles that were downloaded and have verified that any of them not in the public domain? You might try turn this around and say well how do I know they were all in the public domain. I don't, but I don't have to from a legal perspective as you are the one than alleges that he is guilty and therefore the burden of proof lies with you.

     

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  170.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 8:42pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Yeah and JSTOR was so damaged that they did that. No wait they didn't. Instead they asked the DOJ to DROP THE CHARGES.

     

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  171.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 8:45pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Actually, if you read Kerr's analysis, in quoting the decision in Seidlitz, Seidlitz hinged on whether the content acquired was the "property" of OSI implying (though Kerr fails to mention it) that had the content NOT been modified into something that was uniquely theirs, the copying would not have constituted wire fraud. So how exactly then does public domain material acquired here constitute wire fraud?

    Even if something is in the public domain, it doesn't mean that a particular copy is not someone's property. The copies available on JSTOR are someone's property, whether public domain or not. The fact that something is in the public domain would affect the copyright analysis, but that's not relevant to Swartz's case since no copyright infringement charges were brought.

     

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  172.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 8:47pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    That's a solid argument right there. Regurgitation of Latin legal terms always makes an argument stronger.

     

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  173.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 8:49pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    And how exactly do you know that what was taken was copyrighted? Are you privy to the list of specific articles that were downloaded and have verified that any of them not in the public domain? You might try turn this around and say well how do I know they were all in the public domain. I don't, but I don't have to from a legal perspective as you are the one than alleges that he is guilty and therefore the burden of proof lies with you.

    I'm using JSTOR for legal research this evening. I'm familiar with the database, and from what I can tell it's mostly copyrighted stuff (like journal articles). How could Swartz have possibly avoided all the copyrighted stuff? Regardless, copyright is not the issue with Swartz since he wasn't charged with infringement.

     

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  174.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 8:51pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    I don't think voir dire is Latin.

     

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  175.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 8:58pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Since reading comprehension is obviously not your strong suit, I will explain it to you. In Seidlitz, that Kerr cites, the decision on whether or not wire fraud occurred HINGED on whether or not WYLBUR was OSI's property. The defense had argued that because WYLBUR was readily available from multiple sources and used by many companies that taking a copy of it from OSI did not constitute wire fraud. However, the court disagreed BECAUSE the version of WYLBUR that was copied from OSI had been modified for their specific purposes and gave them specific competitive advantage in the market place so therefore it WAS their property. This decision implies that if it had not been modified, the defense's argument would have been sound.

     

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  176.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:04pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    However according to Kerr's analysis, without copyright infringement no wire fraud occurs.

     

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  177.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:06pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    And he didn't TAKE THEIR copy as they still had it. He made a copy of their copy.

     

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  178.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:10pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Btw if you have trouble with your connection to them by all means DON'T TRY TO FIX IT. I hear really bad things can happen if you do.

     

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  179.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:16pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Ok it's Old French derived from Latin. Strike that part and my comment still holds true.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voir_dire

     

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  180.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:17pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Since reading comprehension is obviously not your strong suit, I will explain it to you. In Seidlitz, that Kerr cites, the decision on whether or not wire fraud occurred HINGED on whether or not WYLBUR was OSI's property. The defense had argued that because WYLBUR was readily available from multiple sources and used by many companies that taking a copy of it from OSI did not constitute wire fraud. However, the court disagreed BECAUSE the version of WYLBUR that was copied from OSI had been modified for their specific purposes and gave them specific competitive advantage in the market place so therefore it WAS their property. This decision implies that if it had not been modified, the defense's argument would have been sound.

    You're reading into it too much, I think. The court of appeals doesn't say that a party's particular copy of a work that is no longer copyrighted is not their property. Nor would they have said that, since it's not true (and nor was that even a copyright case). I have books on the shelf where the content is in the public domain. That doesn't mean I don't own that copy.

     

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  181.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:19pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    However according to Kerr's analysis, without copyright infringement no wire fraud occurs.

    Kerr says no such thing since the copyright status of the property is irrelevant. I think you're confusing a particular copy with the underlying copyright.

     

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  182.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:20pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Ok I retract the "reading comprehension" part of my previous comment. Your comments have been fair and not troll worthy so I apologize. My argument still stands though.

     

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  183.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:23pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    First sale doctrine says you do own that copy even if it is not in the public domain.

     

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  184.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:27pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Read the part of part 1 of Kerr's analysis again where he discusses Seidlitz and the decision about whether it was wire fraud or not and how it hinges on the issue of property.

     

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  185.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:38pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Either the content is their property or it isn't, if you think by property he means the specific copy then that doesn't make sense because what the defendant in Seidlitz took was a copy of their copy so they HAD to be referring to INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY instead of actual property. So then that becomes an issue of copyright. And by property they have to mean do they own the copyright or not. And according to the courts decision because they do, it constitutes wire fraud implying that if they didn't wire fraud would not have occurred. So although it is not a copyright case directly, copyright is a key element.

     

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  186.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 9:54pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    BTW I raised this question in the comments on Kerr's analysis and again, no one replied.

     

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  187.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 10:03pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wron

    Sorry, misread your previous comment. Text was getting small on the iPad with the depth of the thread. By property, I think the court in Seidlitz was referring to Intellectual Property (ie Copyright) so although this isn't a copyright case, copyright appears to be the point on which it hinges.

     

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  188.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 10:09pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Hacking isn't a legal charge. I think you mean violation of the CFAA.

     

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  189.  
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    Sacredjunk, Jan 20th, 2013 @ 11:09pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    "I am more successful that him"

    Not at grammar I guess

     

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  190.  
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    JMT (profile), Jan 20th, 2013 @ 11:45pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Signing all your comments with one name does not threaten your freedom of speech or privacy, and it's just plain stupid to suggest otherwise.

     

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  191.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 12:44am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    Well, mr anonymous coward we'll just have to take your word you've done all those amazing things then huh?

    Of course, I find it more amusing/interesting that you've done all THOSE things and yet somehow in the process never found time to even attempt to learn how to use proper grammer and capitalization/spelling when writing.

    Guess you were too busy "saving lives" and "developing" vague things.

     

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  192.  
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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 12:45am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    The name is Rikuo, not Rikou (learn to read and spell!). The name is meaningless to you but meaningful to me, I chose it as my online handle for a specific reason.
    Yes, anonymous speech is anonymous whether you have a signed in handle or are an AC, but I called out on that when that AC said "Why aren't you more open!" while not being open himself.
    I've seen the snowflakes change from time to time, or someone just goes to a different computer. No way for us to keep track of whos saying what. At least the fact I have a profile means I have to be careful about what I say: I have a reputation here on this site, and if I suddenly start saying something the opposite of what I've been saying for years, then someone else can call me out on hypocrisy. Not with you, AJ. You consciously chose not to sign in, in a weak attempt to not put any sort of ID to what you write.

     

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  193.  
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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 12:48am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    The name is Rikuo, not Rikou (learn to read and spell!). The name is meaningless to you but meaningful to me, I chose it as my online handle for a specific reason.
    Yes, anonymous speech is anonymous whether you have a signed in handle or are an AC, but I called out on that when that AC said "Why aren't you more open!" while not being open himself.
    I've seen the snowflakes change from time to time, or someone just goes to a different computer. No way for us to keep track of whos saying what. At least the fact I have a profile means I have to be careful about what I say: I have a reputation here on this site, and if I suddenly start saying something the opposite of what I've been saying for years, then someone else can call me out on hypocrisy. Not with you, AJ. You consciously chose not to sign in, in a weak attempt to not put any sort of ID to what you write.

     

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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 12:50am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    What wrong-doing? All I've seen is him copying taxpayer funded research documents.

     

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  195.  
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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 12:55am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    "so why commit suicide for changing your IP and MAC address ??"

    Of all the idiotic responses you could've given...
    He didn't commit suicide because he changed his IP and MAC. The most likely reason he committed suicide is because the US government went after him and threatened him with jail time for at worst a misdemeanour. They threatened him with decades in jail for copying research documents and he got scared.
    At absolute worst, changing your IP and MAC addresses to deliberately get around network management policies IS NOT A CRIME. It may or may not be against the TOS (depends on the specific TOS).
    You could be right in saying he knew he shouldn't have been logged in then. But, there's a huge gap from that to why he was being threatened with decades in jail.

     

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  196.  
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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 1:05am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    "but this article is not about me, it's about someone else, so why ask me what I have achieved ?? I "

    You were the one who practcally BEGGED for that question to be asked when you said you were more successful.
    Also...CITATION NEEDED. I too can say I'm the best thing since sliced bread, but it won't mean anything unless I can post proof of my accomplishments.

    " I am NOT going to compare myself to someone who you honor for killing themselves."
    Read what I wrote, dumbass. I also don't like it when people commit suicide (unless its say a soldier sacrificing his life to buy time for his comrades to escape or something along those lines).
    If I were to choose one act where Swartz helped people, it was his help in organizing the blackout last year, of driving attention to SOPA. He helped drive home the idea that if SOPA or SOPA like laws passed, this is what the world would have looked like, with sites shut down with just accusations, of due process of law being side-stepped.

     

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  197.  
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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 1:09am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    What the fuck are you smoking? 9000 people killed by guns...who brought that up? What relation does that have to this article?

     

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  198.  
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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 1:12am

    Re:

    Really? So, you've never reset a router, plugged out an ethernet cable, or anything similar along those lines? Doing such a thing can and does change your IP address. Same with MAC addresses, I've done it on my own network when attempting to diagnose problems.

     

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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 4:35am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Yeah, but the prosecutor would have smoked you out as a craven piracy apologist during void dire.

    I seriously doubt that. I come off as a run-of-the-mill, taxpaying, law abiding citizen who takes his responsibility of weighing justice while on jury duty very seriously.

    I have already sat as a juror on more than one trial. But like I said, I'm really having trouble rectifying the punishments with the crimes in this particular case.

     

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  200.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 5:19am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Swartz's Girlfriend Explains

    Uh... It's grammar. Now THERE is some irony.

     

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  201.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 6:00am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    If the issue of property (ie Copyright) is irrelevant, the why does the court in Seidlitz, and Kerr even mention it?

     

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  202.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 7:53am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    At absolute worst, changing your IP and MAC addresses to deliberately get around network management policies IS NOT A CRIME. It may or may not be against the TOS (depends on the specific TOS).

    If it's such a slam-dunk, why didn't he go to trial? The answer, that any reasonable person would conclude is that he may well have violated the CFAA. He had four choices: trial with uncertain outcome (though according to legal professionals on TD, no crime was committed); six months in Club Fed watching tv and lifting weights; seek asylum and move in with Julian Assange or hanging himself. Seems like he made the worst choice available.

     

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  203.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 7:57am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Obviously you need to read up on the law and his conduct.

     

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  204.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 8:03am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    One of my counter arguments was that his actions indicated that he didn't want to be arrested, but that is not the same as knowing you are committing a crime as people are arrested for filming the police when it is not against the law.

    You can't really mean this? Are you saying that an innocent person would race away from a cop when he pulls up behind him with his lights flashing? Or that when an officer hails you you take off running? Suggesting this makes you look even stupider than you obviously are.

     

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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 8:08am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    The answer, that any reasonable person would conclude is that he may well have violated the CFAA.

    Be that as it may.

    A reasonable person could also conclude that the CFAA quite possibly violates the basic tenets of justice and righteousness within our society with the way it is currently being interpreted.

     

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  206.  
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    John Fenderson (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 8:25am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Him covering his face tends to make it more probable that he knew he was committing a crime because that's what a person who know they are committing crime a would do.


    But it's also what a lot of people do when they aren't committing crimes. I don't commit crimes myself, but I do try to avoid having my face appear on surveillance cameras whenever possible. And I would go to great lengths to do so if I were engaging in an action that, while legal and ethical, might enrage powerful people.

    He feared being arrested because he knew that what he was doing appeared to be illegal because he knew it was illegal


    Even in retrospect, it's not entirely clear that his actions were illegal.

    Also, speaking generally, innocent people facing arrest have a great deal to fear. Fear of arrest is not any kind of indication that the person believes he is doing something illegal.

     

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  207.  
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    John Fenderson (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 8:28am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Actually, innocent people have done this on more than one occasion. It's not the usual reaction, but it does happen.

     

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    John Fenderson (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 8:31am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    If it's such a slam-dunk, why didn't he go to trial?


    Because, innocent or guilty, going to trial in a case like this is almost certainly a life-ruining option.

     

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  209.  
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    John Fenderson (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 8:32am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    I don't know what Aaron believed. But it would have been reasonable for him to believe this.

     

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    John Fenderson (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 8:35am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Swartz bypassed these measures so he could scrape the database. That's hacking. That's a crime.


    What he did was not hacking (in the "computer intrusion" sense) at all. What he did was not what was envisioned as a criminal action when the CFAA was enacted.

    It's not even clear that he violated the terms of service.

     

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  211.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 8:43am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Look, it's really simple. There is the law and if you break that law you go to prison. You will probably be raped but then you should have thought of that before you broke the law.

    You might even be innocent but if they think you broke their laws you go to prison. You will probably be raped but then you should have thought of that before you didn't break the law that they are charging you for breaking.

    http://www.innocenceproject.org/

     

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  212.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 8:51am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    The law is guilty.

     

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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 8:52am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Yes, the law being the CFAA, the very same law that the US government is using to define any violation of a TOS as being against this law.
    And his conduct? Again...downloading taxpayer-funded research documents. I've been reading up on this case, I haven't seen anything that should have gotten him charged with anything worse than trespassing.

     

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  214.  
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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 8:56am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    "If it's such a slam-dunk, why didn't he go to trial? The answer, that any reasonable person would conclude is that he may well have violated the CFAA."

    Because, being the smart person that he was, he had more than likely read up on how broadly worded the CFAA is and how the US government misuses to go against anyone whom they call a hacker, even when doing things that are not hacking. Remember, this is in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, the country with the highest prison population percentage of its full population. He more than likely knew that he would be found guilty anyway, regardless of the fact he was more than likely innocent of any crime.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 9:28am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Now I'm confused. In post #209, you say: I've been reading up on this case, I haven't seen anything that should have gotten him charged with anything worse than trespassing.

    Then in post #210 you say: Because, being the smart person that he was, he had more than likely read up on how broadly worded the CFAA is and how the US government misuses to go against anyone whom they call a hacker, even when doing things that are not hacking.

    So either he was not guilty of violating the CFAA as you assert in #209 or you believe that he was as you acknowledge in #210.

    So which is it? I have no problem with you making either argument, but I do have a huge objection trying to argue both sides at the same time.

     

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  216.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 9:41am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Because, innocent or guilty, going to trial in a case like this is almost certainly a life-ruining option.

    I'd humbly suggest that the option he chose- suicide, was a far greater life-ruining option (for him and those who loved him) than a brief stint in prison.

    Again, Swartz was acting on his earlier written manifesto. He believes that knowledge should be free- irregardless or ownership or intellectual property (or other) laws. That's fine. He believed it and acted on his beliefs. However, he didn't think out the potential consequences nor did he appear to be willing to accept them. Look at the Plowshares movement. They break in to US military nuclear facilities, engage in minor vandalism, pour their own blood on weapon components. They have great fidelity to their beliefs, understand that they will (and usually do) go to prison. Then they get out and do it all over. Swartz was down with the acts of disobedience, but apparently not up to the consequences. A lesson for some of the shithouse anarchists on Techdirt.

     

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  217.  
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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 9:42am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Are you saying that an innocent person would race away from a cop when he pulls up behind him with his lights flashing?

    An innocent person might continue to drive on to a location they feel safe in, such as a shopping market or police station parking lot. There is ALWAYS another side to the story than just authority's version.

    Or that when an officer hails you you take off running?

    No, but I might continue on my merry way, unless I am under arrest. I do not technically have to obey a police officer's command, unless not doing so may harm myself, others or property.

     

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    Leigh Beadon (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 9:43am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Nothing you do is a "big deal" Joe. Just amusing and transparent in its cowardice, that's all.

     

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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 9:43am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Because every single person on this planet thinks of things like being charged with the CFAA as "Oh, that won't happen to me". He may or may not have known about the CFAA, but if he had, he wouldn't have thought that the government would have gone ape-shit over it with him.
    I didn't acknowledge in 210 that he was guilty, I said that the law is so badly worded that the US government can use it to go after anyone. For me to say he was guilty in 210, is to say he was guilty of violating the law after switching from Wifi to ethernet cable.

     

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  220.  
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    Leigh Beadon (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 9:45am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    So much for the Techdirt commitment to free speech and right to anonymity. Like most of their ideals "it depends".

    Apparently you do not understand said "commitment"

    I absolutely believe Joe has the right to say whatever he wants, and to choose to do it anonymously.

    He does not have the right to be free from judgement by others for that choice.

    Is that so hard to understand? The entire point of freedom is that other free people will judge you for your choices, rather than a government forcing you into a particular choice. It does not mean you will not be judged at all.

     

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    John Fenderson (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 9:55am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    I'd humbly suggest that the option he chose- suicide, was a far greater life-ruining option (for him and those who loved him) than a brief stint in prison


    No argument from me about the suicide, although clearly his suicide was the result of more than just his legal problems.

    However, I disagree with the characterization of the prison time as a "brief stint". That's trivializing the fact that six months in prison is a huge penalty. Also, that he would reasonably have believed that he faced far more than 6 months, since he was being threatened with years in order to coerce a guilty plea.

    Swartz was down with the acts of disobedience, but apparently not up to the consequences.


    It's hard to see how the legal repercussions he received could have been foreseen. From all outward appearances (the law as written, the terms of service, etc.), the worst he would have faced was a trespassing charge. A trespassing charge would not have resulted in a felony conviction.

    He may very well have been up to facing conviction on such a charge. The multiple felony counts, combined with the threat of years in prison, was completely unexpected. Fighting them is not opposed to the principles of civil disobedience.

     

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  222.  
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    John Fenderson (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 10:04am

    Re:

    What's funny is that by my reading of Mr. Kerr's articles, he, Mike, and most of the commenters here agree more than they disagree.

     

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  223.  
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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 10:07am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Swartz was down with the acts of disobedience, but apparently not up to the consequences.

    This is where I think you take things too far in your firm view that the law is above everything else, AJ.

    Nobody, and I mean nobody without intense knowledge of the abuses of the CFAA, would think, before the fact, that what Arron did would equate to 30 some odd years of hard time in Federal prison. A simple violation of copyright and minor misdemeanor charges would have been the reasonable expectation here.

    Your incessant pushing of the "Law" as a god above all others truly scares me.

     

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  224.  
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    John Fenderson (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 10:09am

    Re:

    explain a situation in network fault diagnosis where you would be able to determine where the fault is by changing your IP or MAC address ?


    In my 30+ years in IT, I've changed my IP address countless times to resolve networking issues.

    Changing MAC addresses for this purpose is less common, but I've done that intentionally on more than one occasion as well.

    I've done these things to get my machines working again, not for diagnosis, but when these techniques work, they do give you a strong clue as to what's going wrong. Therefore, they are valid diagnostic techniques.

    All of which is purely academic, of course, and not really that related to Swartz's actions.

     

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  225.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 10:16am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Nothing you do is a "big deal" Joe. Just amusing and transparent in its cowardice, that's all.

    You think it's cowardice to post anonymously? Great burn.

     

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  226.  
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    Leigh Beadon (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 10:22am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    To anonymously bash a dead guy and all his supporters? Yeah, pretty cowardly. Even Westboro Baptist Church lowlifes have the conviction to show their faces.

     

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  227.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 10:34am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Either the content is their property or it isn't, if you think by property he means the specific copy then that doesn't make sense because what the defendant in Seidlitz took was a copy of their copy so they HAD to be referring to INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY instead of actual property. So then that becomes an issue of copyright. And by property they have to mean do they own the copyright or not. And according to the courts decision because they do, it constitutes wire fraud implying that if they didn't wire fraud would not have occurred. So although it is not a copyright case directly, copyright is a key element.

    The database is JSTOR's property. I doubt that JSTOR owns many if any of the actual copyrights, since the journals or the authors would hold those, but the database that JSTOR compiles and maintains is their property. TThere is harm to JSTOR's property interest in the database when someone scrapes it and takes more than they are allowed to take. That database is JSTOR's "primary source of competitive advantage," to borrow Prof. Kerr's phrase. (See "Cybercrime's Scope" article that I linked to above.) The program in Seidlitz was property because they spent time and money to make it, and it provided the company with value. This is just like how the database is JSTOR's property because they spent time and money to make it, and it provides the company with value that they sell in the marketplace. The scraping a misappropriation of someone else's property because it's taking something of value without paying for it. Even if a given document in the database is in the public domain, JSTOR adds value to it by scanning it, cross-referencing it, making the footnotes links, etc. They put their time and money into it, giving it value and giving them a property interest. Labor begets property, just like Locke said. It's not a copyright claim at all. It's a fraud claim based on the wrongful taking of something of value without paying for it.

     

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  228.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 10:35am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    To anonymously bash a dead guy and all his supporters? Yeah, pretty cowardly. Even Westboro Baptist Church lowlifes have the conviction to show their faces.

    I didn't bash Aaron. I bashed Mike. Try and shame me all you want, but it won't work. Add the conversation if you can. We're having a nice discussion on the merits.

     

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  229.  
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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 10:41am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Again, the database was INCREDIBLY OPEN. JSTOR dropped their case against Swartz, indicating they weren't "harmed".
    I'm sitting on a chair right now that I built. I value it at $10 trillion. Doesn't mean that if someone were to nick it, they should be threatened with 50 years in prison. Or if I invited a friend over and he wandered over to my logged in desktop and copied a public domain work that I had had some footnotes on.

     

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  230.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 10:47am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    If the issue of property (ie Copyright) is irrelevant, the why does the court in Seidlitz, and Kerr even mention it?

    Deprivation of a property interest is relevant since it's one of the elements of the crime. The program in Seidlitz was property just as JSTOR's database is here. Even though Seidlitz merely copied the company's property--not actually depriving them of their copy--the Fourth Circuit held that the software Seidlitz obtained was property. The same applies here, which is Kerr's point. The other poster is trying to bring copyright law into this analysis, and I was saying that the owner of the copyrights in the database is irrelevant. This isn't an infringement case, is a fraud case.

     

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  231.  
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    Leigh Beadon (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 10:55am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    We're having a nice discussion on the merits.

    Yes, you seem to be mostly calm today. Only a matter of time before the switch gets flipped again (is this a sober/drunk thing? my guess has always been that you have a substance abuse problem of some sort, though I guess it could also be a bad marriage or just a psychological condition), and you'll back to being a blithering asshole like you were in your first few comments on this thread. I'm glad you have found some people to humour you until then, I guess, but I won't be one of them.

     

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  232.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 10:57am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Again, the database was INCREDIBLY OPEN. JSTOR dropped their case against Swartz, indicating they weren't "harmed".

    Those millions of documents are worth millions of dollars. Aaron acquired something of value without paying for it. That benefited Aaron and harmed JSTOR. The benefit to Aaron is what makes him liable--not the harm to JSTOR. The harm would be relevant to the issue of damages, but the issue of whether or not he's guilty would only look at whether he gained something of value without paying for it.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 10:57am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    You are right in saying that we were having a nice discussion of the case on it's merits. That still doesn't excuse the trollish bashing of Mike.

     

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  234. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
     
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 11:03am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    LMAO!

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 11:06am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    You are right in saying that we were having a nice discussion of the case on it's merits. That still doesn't excuse the trollish bashing of Mike.

    And what excuses his behavior? I think it's disgusting how he's capitalizing on Swartz's death, and I feel like that's a point worth making. I'm publicly shaming Mike because I think he deserves it.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 11:08am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    However, even if he had released the documents on file sharing networks as his intention is alleged, their competitive advantage would still have remained intact as well as that they have it indexed and searchable from a single source which is the difference I referred to earlier between taking the entire database and the content from it.

     

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    John Fenderson (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 11:11am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Not speaking for Rikuo, of course, but this case lends itself to confusing two different things: what is right and what is the law. I find myself getting tripped up between the two here frequently.

    What Aaron was being charged with was ridiculous, and according to common sense, decency, and justice, the charges were dramatically overblown and morally wrong across the board.

    The charges may comport with the law, but that just highlights how wrong and unjust the law is. And that is the whole point.

    In discussing this whole thing, it's easy to confuse the two things. When I say "he didn't do anything wrong," I mean he wasn't acting immorally or unethically. I don't mean he wasn't acting illegally. But the law here is simply wrong. Not just a little wrong, but massively, horribly wrong.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 11:18am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    As he was allowed to download one document and even multiple documents, at what specific threshold does the benefit to a user become fraud? Please include the specific citation for where the number comes from? Are you saying that if I use Google Maps, complying with all of their terms of service, and the benefit to me is great enough, I suddenly commit a crime? That is ludicrous.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 11:21am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    But they aren't deprived of any property interest here.

     

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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 11:22am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    "Those millions of documents are worth millions of dollars. Aaron acquired something of value without paying for it."

    Which they allowed him to have, being it was an open network with a management policy only so someone wasn't hogging all the bandwidth.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 11:26am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Software is property like corporations are people. Right?

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 11:28am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    I wouldn't even say they had a "policy" against hogging bandwidth so much as they attempted to mitigate a problem as they saw it. There is a difference.

     

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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 11:30am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    That's the problem with AJ. He only ever considers the wording of the law, never the spirit. Yes, he may be right that Aaron violated the law here, given how its written, but that's the end point for AJ. He doesn't consider whether the law is just, unjust, moral or immoral.
    So Average_Joe, shut the fuck up about saying he violated the law. He may have, but that's not what's being discussed here. What we're discussing is the overblown reaction to what Swartz did, and people like you who don't bat at an eye at him being threatened with decades in prison.

     

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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 11:34am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Meh, same difference, when it comes to talking about whether or not Swartz committed a crime worthy of decades in prison.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 11:34am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Please point us to the published policy that states what defines what the specific amount someone is allowed to take before they commit felony fraud and how the person using their system is notified and agrees to such policy prior to gaining access to the system.

     

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    weneedhelp (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 11:38am

    Re:

    "have NEVER had to change the IP"

    Never? No ipconfig /renew ? Never had a DNS hiccup? Never in 43 years?

    I think someone is not being truthful here.

    "I wanted to hide my identity"
    So now a MAC/IP address is an identifiable source? You register your mac with every network admin whose network you connect to?

    The only thing I come close to agreeing with you on is the MAC address spoofing. He knew he was hitting the network kind of hard but that in itself is not a crime. And a machine was blocked, not a person. At any time he could have pulled out another laptop and continued download documents that were freely available.

    MIT was way out of line here and they knew it.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 11:40am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "Capitalizing"?

    That's your opinion, not fact.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 11:47am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Your welcome to hold that opinion of Mike, still there is a right way and a wrong way to criticize (see my response to yaga's comment below). This is also why I issued you the the retraction and apology for the statement I made earlier in our debate. Disagreement is fine. Civility is important. Trolls have none and resorting to personal bashing just makes you look like a troll.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 11:49am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    "He doesn't consider whether the law is just, unjust, moral or immoral. "

    I noticed this too. He can argue with a profound sense of calm because the law is the law, and according to him "morals have no place amongst the law."

    Yet, we have representatives in the government that work to create laws beneficial to the people. If members of the public see imbalances (moral or otherwise) in the law and speak out about it in a public forum like Techdirt, they're labeled as fanatics and idiots.

     

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    weneedhelp (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 11:53am

    Re: Re:

    Come to think of it:
    "my network has stopped working".

    I call bullshit, you have never worked in IT. They dont call and say "my network has stopped working". They call and say I cant get to the internet or my email is not working, or Universal Type Server wont connect. I searched our ticket system and that term returns nothing. (We support 6000+ here in the US and another 2500 users in 5 countries.)

    "So, who is making strawman arguments" - Appears to be you.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 12:01pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    This is also something I noticed in the Volokh discussion. There were several comments made by obviously lawyers or law students that basically said that tech people shouldn't be commenting on the site because with the law tech people were "in over their heads". No substantive argument. Only, as I put it there, "professional elitism". A tool of the troll.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 12:05pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    I noticed this too. He can argue with a profound sense of calm because the law is the law, and according to him "morals have no place amongst the law."

    I never said that. In fact, I've often argued for the TD regulars to recognize the moral component to the law. The two inextricably intertwined. Morality is lost with many here, I think.

     

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  253.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 12:09pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    You're right. Who in the industry talks like that? You don't "fix a fault", you "resolve an issue" or "fix a bug" but not a "fault".

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 12:10pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Morality is lost here? IS that based on the assumption we're all pirate apologists?

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 12:19pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Morality is lost here? IS that based on the assumption we're all pirate apologists?

    Many people here don't see any problem with misappropriating and "liberating" a database the costs tens of millions of dollars to produce. That's a lack of morality, IMO.

     

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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 12:19pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Although I don't subscribe to the whole "you are not a lawyer so you cannot comment on the law" silliness (or even the opposite - "you're not a geek, so don't comment on tech stuff"), it has been my observation that some of the law scholars really don't understand the technology and then attempt to oversimplify it and thereby leave out some very important nuances.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 12:26pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Wait, where did they say the database cost tens of millions of dollars to produce?

     

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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 12:28pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Many people here don't see any problem with misappropriating and "liberating" a database the costs tens of millions of dollars to produce. That's a lack of morality, IMO.

    That is because, as I've stated to you before, you can't see past the letter of the law. Broaden your horizons, for Christ's sake.

    If "liberating" that database eventually led to thousands of human lives being saved (not saying that's the case here at all, btw), then the initial act is moral one, regardless if Letter-of-the-Law-Man disagrees.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 12:29pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    It's mentioned in the complaint and confirmed in their tax filings which are public.

     

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    Mike Masnick (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 12:37pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    And what excuses his behavior? I think it's disgusting how he's capitalizing on Swartz's death, and I feel like that's a point worth making. I'm publicly shaming Mike because I think he deserves it.

    Once again, I can only hope that, in your life, when someone important to *you* dies, that you do not have to experience the horror of someone mocking both the deceased and the way those who knew him choose to grieve.

    Remembering someone who accomplished great things is "capitalizing" on their death? I'll tell that to my mother who lost her sister last week. How dare she "mourn" by talking about her sister.

    Using the death to hope that the conditions that led to his death won't happen to others is "capitalizing"? Again, I'll let my mother know that her wishes to help stop cancer after my aunt's death are things she should be ashamed of.

    I am not "capitalizing" on his death. I am talking about it. This is what people *DO* when people who are important to them die. They seek to remember the person and they seek to change the conditions that led to their deaths. I can do both of those things thanks to this site, and I choose to do so.

    That you choose to not just mock that, but to attack me and claim that I should be *SHAMEFUL* for doing such things? I have no words... other than to hope that you never have to go through such a thing as to have someone mock YOU for how you mourn someone.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 12:40pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Hmm, not a douchey enough response, Marcus. You're slacking.

     

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  262.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 12:46pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Morality? NOW you want to debate morality? We aren't the ones claiming that Aaron willingly and knowingly broke a law designed to address BANK FRAUD that is being twisted such that standard networking troubleshooting techniques that used to break phantom unstated TOS policies qualify as multiple felony violations such that it is perfectly reasonable for the mighty DOJ to literally badger the poor boy to the point that his depression makes him suicidal.

    We also aren't the ones that argue it's ok for a large company to take away a 4 year old girl's only means of communication in the name of corporate greed. (And yes I know they settled it so she ultimately didn't lose it, but MORAL people would never have let that happen in the first place and yes, I know that this one is over but it STILL pisses me off.)

    So don't try to claim moral high ground here. Mike's and the other authors articles are about benefiting the public not taking from them.

     

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  263.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 12:47pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Lol. You are one sorry sociopath, Masnick. At least others are starting to realize that.

    You're pimping his death. And we're not going to let you forget it, believe me.

     

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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 12:48pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Morality is subjective, not objective. What you see as immoral is not what I see as immoral. So where does that leave us when crafting laws and interpreting them?

     

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  265.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 12:48pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Morality? NOW you want to debate morality? We aren't the ones claiming that Aaron willingly and knowingly broke a law designed to address BANK FRAUD that is being twisted such that standard networking troubleshooting techniques that used to break phantom unstated TOS policies qualify as multiple felony violations such that it is perfectly reasonable for the mighty DOJ to literally badger the poor boy to the point that his depression makes him suicidal.

    We also aren't the ones that argue it's ok for a large company to take away a 4 year old girl's only means of communication in the name of corporate greed. (And yes I know they settled it so she ultimately didn't lose it, but MORAL people would never have let that happen in the first place and yes, I know that this one is over but it STILL pisses me off.)

    So don't try to claim moral high ground here. Mike's and the other authors articles are about benefiting the public not taking from them.

    _EOR_

     

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  266.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 12:48pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Your claim is still confusing. You seem to be suggesting he did some major damage to the value of the database, or you're just mentioning the dollar value of the database to emphasize that there's terrible people who wish to see academic informationf low freely.

     

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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 12:49pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    It's mentioned in the complaint and confirmed in their tax filings which are public.

    And there again, so what? If JSTOR had a problem with this, they could have filed a civil infringement case against MIT and/or Swartz. They didn't. They also repeatedly asked the DOJ not to prosecute this case.

    When even your "victim" wasn't interested in pushing this to the level it went to, I'm not sure how you can continue to justify the actions of the DOJ. It's simply mind boggling that you cannot see the forest for the trees.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 12:50pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "And we're not going to let you forget it, believe me."

    LOL...oh, it's funny how much you think he'll actually care about your dribbling references to all the "milking" he did on this story.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 12:53pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    My comment was that you think that people who interpret and debate for a living (ie lawyers) would know that resorting to personal attacks never makes your argument stronger and on the Internet, it just makes you look like a troll.

     

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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 12:56pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Sociopath

    noun, Psychiatry.
    a person with a psychopathic personality whose behavior is antisocial, often criminal, and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.

    Let's see...Mike Masnick, runs an online blog with an open comments section, has never been charged with a crime, and calls for out of date laws that don't work to be changed.
    Yeah sure he's a sociopath.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 12:57pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    THAT my friends is how you stand on the moral high ground.

     

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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 12:58pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Yes. I agree completely with your assessment and I probably should have stated that.

    I was just adding a personal observation.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 12:58pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    I'm hard pressed to find the actual tax filings that explicitly state the database was worth that amount of money unless it was a combined cost.

    I found this - http://www.generalist.org.uk/blog/2011/jstor-where-does-your-money-go/ - and he actually found the tax filings, but the closest reference I can find to the database is a reference to IT.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 12:58pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    add to that:

    "for the benefit of the PUBLIC GOOD."

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 1:11pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Here's twelve years of filings. Note the annual cost of scanning, for example. http://www.eri-nonprofit-salaries.com/index.cfm?FuseAction=NPO.Form990&EIN=133857105&Year=20 11

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 1:17pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Maybe it would be different if the discussion revolved around depression and Swartz wasn't a political figure. Their are thousands of people who have faced a short period of incarceration without ending their lives. IMO, depression was the root cause, not the flaws in CFAA, overzealous prosecutors or anything else.

     

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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 1:21pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    We'll never know, but it can said without being wrong that the overzealous prosecution was a factor. Was it THE factor? A major factor? A minor factor? No-one can say.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 1:21pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    WOW. That's a really convincing argument you made there. Did you have to go to school to learn how to debate so effectively?

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 1:23pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Sorry, I obviously don't have your clerical skills. Carry on! As far as your on-line rep, I doubt most people stalk your comments searching for inconsistency. Maybe you should inquire of Techdirt as to why they permit it. Personally, it's a big "who cares" therefore I'll leave it to you to obsess over it.

     

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    John Fenderson (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 1:24pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    You mean the tens of millions of dollars that we the public paid? You mean liberating these documents from an entity that one could reasonably argue had "liberated" them from the public's ownership in the first place?

    JSTOR didn't pay a single dime to produce these documents. They're taking what we already paid for, locking them away, and charging for people to look at them.

    The morality of the situation is not quite as clear cut as you seem to believe.

     

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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 1:28pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    They don't have to stalk my comments. I've frequently called here for the abolition of copyright and for someone on the opposite side of the fence as me to give us a decent debate. Regulars here know that. Now, imagine if someone signed with my handle were to start talking pro-copyright tomorrow? They'd know, because the name associated with that comment is actually someone who frequently says the opposite.

     

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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 1:32pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Many people here don't see any problem with misappropriating and "liberating" a database the costs tens of millions of dollars to produce. That's a lack of morality, IMO.

    Holy fuck. I just realized what you are tyring to do here, AJ. You are trying to legally equate copyright infringement to stealing by using the CFAA. That is disingenuous, even for you.

    This may have been a case of copyright infringement, I don't dispute that. But it's not "stealing" whatsoever. Aaron was given permission to unlimited downloads as an end user of MIT's wide open network and he used those rights. The argument about JSTOR/MIT trying to stop him as evidence of wrong doing falls flat. You cannot revoke the rights to be connected to a network that doesn't require any authorization in the first place.

    I think you are pissed that Aaron actually found a valid legal loophole in this matter and that is what has your dander up.

     

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    John Fenderson (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 1:32pm

    Re: Re:

    At any time he could have pulled out another laptop and continued download documents that were freely available.


    This is an excellent point, and underlies why what he did was not "hacking". His actions were no different than switching to a different computer.

    But we're talking about a legislative environment that considers DDOS attacks as hacking as well, so reasonableness and accuracy in not something that we can expect.

     

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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 1:34pm

    Re: Re:

    He wouldn't even have needed another laptop. A USB wifi stick would've been enough, since each network adaptor has its own MAC address.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 1:37pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Holy fuck. I just realized what you are tyring to do here, AJ. You are trying to legally equate copyright infringement to stealing by using the CFAA. That is disingenuous, even for you.

    Quite the opposite. I've explicitly stated more than once that this isn't about copyright. It's about fraud and hacking.

     

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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 1:38pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Not to be rude to you Gwiz, but it seriously took you that long to figure out that's what AJ's angle was? He's always conflated copyright infringement with theft.
    Of course, let's not talk about the fact that that is him being a hypocrite whenever he's trumpeting the letter of the law and the letter of the law says copyright infringement is not theft.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 1:41pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    No you ignored it because you have no answer for it. Hiding his face and running from the police indicate that he was aware of adversity and attempted to avoid it. It's stretching to take that to the level of willfully and knowingly committing a crime.

    Personally, I think he was trying to walk a fine legal line without crossing it to commit a crime. Perhaps Harvard had a stated TOS that he would have to agree to to gain access there and he used MIT because they did not and I think in his mind he was prepared to defend himself against allegations of criminal activity if they arose. And had they charged him with an appropriate misdemeanor, we would have seen that. What he wasn't prepared for was the DOJ twisting a law meant for something completely different into 13 felony charges with a jail term. Upping the ante proved too much for him to handle. To the prosecution, it's just a game where they can often win simply by playing hard ball, so they do. He wasn't prepared for that.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 1:41pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Not to be rude to you Gwiz, but it seriously took you that long to figure out that's what AJ's angle was? He's always conflated copyright infringement with theft.
    Of course, let's not talk about the fact that that is him being a hypocrite whenever he's trumpeting the letter of the law and the letter of the law says copyright infringement is not theft.


    And the sockpuppets pile in. I've explicitly stated more than once that copyright is not the issue here. I'm not conflating anything.

     

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    Mike Masnick (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 1:41pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Holy fuck. I just realized what you are tyring to do here, AJ. You are trying to legally equate copyright infringement to stealing by using the CFAA. That is disingenuous, even for you.

    I think it's worse than that. He's not using copyright infringement, but a *database right* infringement as the source of his argument, despite the US rejecting database rights (unlike Europe).

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 1:48pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    That sockpuppet comment really makes your argument stronger you know.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 1:51pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    I think it's worse than that. He's not using copyright infringement, but a *database right* infringement as the source of his argument, despite the US rejecting database rights (unlike Europe).

    Let's see the database rights argument. Got cites?

    I'm merely repeating Kerr's argument that the property element is fulfilled under the reasoning in Seidlitz and Carpenter.

     

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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 1:51pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    He's not using copyright infringement, but a *database right* infringement as the source of his argument, despite the US rejecting database rights (unlike Europe).

    Good point. I had forgotten about the fact that the US doesn't recognize database rights earlier on in these discussions.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 1:53pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    No I think he's dancing around the semantics of the word "property" since the court in Seidlitz said that it had to be property for fraud to exist. Claiming that because the copy is someone's then it is property. Attempting to claim that because they "worked on it" to change it it's the work that makes it theirs rather than the fact that it becomes something unique.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 1:58pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Good point. I had forgotten about the fact that the US doesn't recognize database rights earlier on in these discussions.

    Let's see the cites. Where does it say that the information in a database is not property for purposes of the fraud statutes (or any other purpose)?

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 2:02pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Had Aaron been trying to download the ENTIRE DATABASE (ie. structure, indexing and all) he would have a point but Aaron was only downloading the information which is different. JSTORE's competitive advantage was in the indexing from a single source. That was not taken or damaged in any way. The only thing that would have been damaged is exclusivity which returns you to the issue of copyright.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 2:03pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    No I think he's dancing around the semantics of the word "property" since the court in Seidlitz said that it had to be property for fraud to exist. Claiming that because the copy is someone's then it is property. Attempting to claim that because they "worked on it" to change it it's the work that makes it theirs rather than the fact that it becomes something unique.

    It's not dancing on semantics. JSTOR spends millions licensing the content, scanning journals, cross-referencing materials, etc. That effort makes the database especially valuable, and that's why institutions pay thousands of dollars a year for access. They are paying for that value that JSTOR collated and created. That value is rightfully JSTOR's property right.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 2:05pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Had Aaron been trying to download the ENTIRE DATABASE (ie. structure, indexing and all) he would have a point but Aaron was only downloading the information which is different. JSTORE's competitive advantage was in the indexing from a single source. That was not taken or damaged in any way. The only thing that would have been damaged is exclusivity which returns you to the issue of copyright.

    Nonsense. You're paradoxically arguing that what he took was of no value, when obviously he took what he did because it was valuable.

     

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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 2:07pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    And here we go to your claims of theft. You don't have to use the word in order to mean it.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 2:14pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    No I'm not saying that it had NO value. But the value that was subject to damage as referenced in Seidlitz was the indexing and searchability as that is the value added by the work that they put in. The value of the content itself falls under copyright law.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 2:18pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Collation is what a database does. It organizes the content so that it is searchable from a central location. That is in the structure and indexing. He didn't try to take that only the data.

     

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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 2:24pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    You're paradoxically arguing that what he took was of no value,...

    No. He is arguing that he only took the content, not all this supposed value you place on JSTOR's organization of said content.

    ...when obviously he took what he did because it was valuable.

    Obvious to whom? Perhaps Aaron took because it was important knowledge that should be available to all people.

    You are the only person (probably in the whole world) equating this somehow to Aaron trying to make a buck off of all this.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 2:28pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Either there was a policy in place at the time or there wasn't. You can't just make it up as you go and then claim people broke the law by violating it when they never saw it much less agreed to it because you just made it up.

     

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    Mike Masnick (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 2:37pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Let's see the database rights argument. Got cites?


    From Feist:


    It may seem unfair that much of the fruit of the compiler's labor may be used by others without compensation. As Justice Brennan has correctly observed, however, this is not "some unforeseen byproduct of a statutory scheme." Harper & Row, 471 U.S., at 589 (dissenting opinion). It is, rather, "the essence of copyright," ibid. and a constitutional requirement. The primary objective of copyright is not to reward the labor of authors, but "[t]o promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts." Art. I, 8, cl. 8. Accord, Twentieth Century Music Corp. v. Aiken, 422 U.S. 151, 156 (1975). To this end, copyright assures authors the right to their original [499 U.S. 340, 350] expression, but encourages others to build freely upon the ideas and information conveyed by a work. Harper & Row, supra, at 556-557. This principle, known as the idea/expression or fact/expression dichotomy, applies to all works of authorship. As applied to a factual compilation, assuming the absence of original written expression, only the compiler's selection and arrangement may be protected; the raw facts may be copied at will. This result is neither unfair nor unfortunate. It is the means by which copyright advances the progress of science and art.


    Yes, that's a copyright argument, but it says that the data may be "copied at will." If your argument were accurate, then that would render the ruling in Feist meaningless, since Rural could have just come back with the claim that it had "spent millions" on compiling its database, and that Feist had "misappropriated" it as you claim.

    In fact, the court explicitly rejects the idea that the amount of effort that went into compiling a database matters. It explicitly rejects the argument that "sweat of the brow" matters in determining such things. Yet you are arguing precisely the opposite.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 2:49pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Exactly. Even had he downloaded all of the content and distributed it to P2P file sharing services the added value of indexing and searchability that JSTOR spent so much money on in building there aggregate collection would not have been taken. Exclusivity is the ONLY part of their competitive advantage that they would have lost and THAT is the very issue copyright addresses.

     

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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 2:49pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Game, set and match. And this is comment #300, been a while since we had an article with that many comments.

     

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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 2:51pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Gah! Yours is #300, you must have entered it while I was typing in what I thought was #300.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 2:52pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Now if we can just get someone to explain it to Kerr.

    >:)

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 2:55pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    I accidentally double posted earlier to technically yours should have been #300 anyway.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 2:59pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    The amount of effort that went into making the database in Feist didn't matter because the constitutional threshold issue of originality had not been met. Labor alone is insufficient to claim copyright protection. That labor must produce something original. It's not a refutation of Lockean notions, though, since there still must be labor first to get property right later. Feist just adds an originality element to the copyrightability analysis.

    But that's not the issue here. The issue here is whether something of value was fraudulently taken. The party in Feist acquired the database legitimately, hence fraud was not the issue there. There was no false pretenses in Feist as there are here. The database in Feist was given out freely while the one here is licensed. The statute at issue is here: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1343 As Kerr notes, "The false pretenses are provided by the false identification and spoofing of Swartz’ IP address and MAC address. Swartz was trying to trick JSTOR into giving him access to their database after they had specifically tried their best to ban him from doing so." http://www.volokh.com/2013/01/14/aaron-swartz-charges/

     

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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 3:00pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    I double posted earlier as well, so that would have made my "300" what? 298 then?

     

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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 3:03pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    " As Kerr notes, "The false pretenses are provided by the false identification and spoofing of Swartz’ IP address and MAC address. Swartz was trying to trick JSTOR into giving him access to their database after they had specifically tried their best to ban him from doing so."

    If their best is IP and MAC address blocking...then their IT team needs to be fired. Out of a cannon. Towards a brick wall. Because that is not the best thing you can do to protect your network.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 3:11pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    And that gets back to my original argument. How exactly did the efforts that they made produce something original that was taken?

    Also the actions they took amount to nothing more than bandwidth and resource management or would reasonably be perceived as such. At no time prior does there appear to be any attempt to communicate the intention that he was no longer permitted to access it. Had they asked a court for a temporary restraining order that was then delivered to him, that would have qualified. But they didn't. The DOJ concocted this theory afterwards to support felony charges.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 3:14pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    "Out of a cannon. Towards a brick wall."

    Now that there is funny.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 4:14pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Let me give this another try. I think you're conflating the copy with the copyright. The database that Rural compiled was Rural's property. I'm talking about the physical copy itself, not the underlying copyright. It could do with that property as it pleased. It chose to print out phone books to distribute to the public. The Court said that Feist was free to copy the information in the phone book because it wasn't protected by copyright. And fraud never came up because Feist didn't fraudulently obtain his copy. Had Rural decided to put their phone book behind a paywall, and someone used fraud to obtain a copy, that would be fraud but not copyright infringement. It couldn't be infringement because the information was not copyrighted, but it could still be fraud.

    So getting to Swartz, the database itself is JSTOR's property. The actual ones and zeroes on their servers are owned by them. Some of the materials are copyrighted, and some are not, but that's a different issue than the ownership of the information itself. They own those particular copies. Swartz's copying is wire fraud since he acquired the copies via fraudulent acts. That copying could also support copyright charges for the materials that were copyrighted, but the government didn't pursue that theory. You're misreading Feist though to indicate that people don't own their copies if the underlying works is not copyrighted. That's not what the Court said, nor does that necessarily apply here since lots if not most of the stuff on JSTOR is in fact copyrighted.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 4:16pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Exactly. Even had he downloaded all of the content and distributed it to P2P file sharing services the added value of indexing and searchability that JSTOR spent so much money on in building there aggregate collection would not have been taken. Exclusivity is the ONLY part of their competitive advantage that they would have lost and THAT is the very issue copyright addresses.

    The journals and articles themselves are valuable even without the value added by JSTOR. Swartz misappropriated that value even if he didn't misappropriate some of the value that JSTOR added.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 4:18pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    And that gets back to my original argument. How exactly did the efforts that they made produce something original that was taken?

    Also the actions they took amount to nothing more than bandwidth and resource management or would reasonably be perceived as such. At no time prior does there appear to be any attempt to communicate the intention that he was no longer permitted to access it. Had they asked a court for a temporary restraining order that was then delivered to him, that would have qualified. But they didn't. The DOJ concocted this theory afterwards to support felony charges.


    JSTOR spent money scanning the documents. Swartz obtained copies that cost real money to produce. He obtained something of value under false pretenses.

     

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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 4:24pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    But that's not the issue here. The issue here is whether something of value was fraudulently taken. The party in Feist acquired the database legitimately, hence fraud was not the issue there. There was no false pretenses in Feist as there are here. The database in Feist was given out freely while the one here is licensed

    How are you claiming that Aaron obtained the content fraudulently? End users of MIT's network have a carte blanche license for unlimited downloads of JSTOR docs and he was using MIT's network within the boundaries that MIT themselves set forth. Where is the fraudulent part?

    Additionally, on the licensing part, sure, MIT licensed access from JSTOR. But that license is between JSTOR and MIT. Due to the open nature and lack of TOS on MIT's network, I fail to see how that license extends to the end users in this case and how it would be applicable anyways.

     

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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 4:56pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    He obtained something of value under false pretenses.

    What false pretenses?

    If you are using the fact that he changed his IP address, his MAC address or even the fact that he connected via a CAT5 connection after JSTOR/MIT attempted to stop the large volume downloads, then that doesn't hold water for me. All of those things were implicitly permitted on MIT's network prior to this incident happening. Permission to do those things was already given. He was not doing anything under false pretenses.

    Also, just because JSTOR/MIT attempted to stop him doesn't negate the fact that he had permission for unlimited downloads, does it?

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 4:58pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    The value of the articles themselves is delt with through copyright. And if you copyright is irrelevant as you claim, that value is then irrelevant.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 5:46pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Again, please point us to this "policy" that he agreed to that says how much of the information he was allowed to download, which he violated making his downloads constitute "false pretenses".

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 5:58pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    And if this is the best that the IT department at MIT - arguably the most advanced and prestigious TECHNOLOGY institution in the nation - can come up with, in the future we are truly screwed. What a sad statement that would make about our educational system in this country. However, the real sad statement here is that the DOJ expects us to believe that this load of horseshit is actually true.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 6:16pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    So hiding your face is somehow proof of criminal intention?

    Reasons why someone would want to hide their faces:

    1 - To avert the constant surveillance that many feel is becoming a bit intrusive.

    Popsci: Anti-Surveillance Hoodie And Scarf Prevent Drones From Tracking You

    The Register: Reverse-engineering artist busts face detection tech

    2 - Because he was not supposed to be there without supervision, which is not the same as knowingly knowing he was committing a crime.

    3 - To protect somebody else who allowed him entrance and warned him not to get caught by the camera or he could be in trouble because of internal rules, this all without knowing about criminal offenses.

    People bend the rules all the time, proof of that is when any law enforcement strikes the first thing they do is "operation turtle" where they follow by the book every and each rule to the letter, specially customs, and we can all see what happens, so don't even try to say "he knew the rules", he probably knew the real rules of the place and not the ones on paper, which again is not the same as "complete disregard for the rule of law".

    Quote:
    He feared being arrested because he knew that what he was doing appeared to be illegal because he knew it was illegal.

    Are you psychic now?
    How do you know what he knew at the time?
    Suspicion behavior is not enough to infer intention to commit a crime, it must be an action that shows without a doubt that he was intent in committing a crime, using a connection to download freely available material is not a crime, I will do what you did there and say that he knew the material was free, he knew it probably wasn't against the law or could have reasonably believed it was not against the law to download free available material, he may have been perfectionist to a fault trying to get the maximum of material in the shortest period of time possible and found a not by the book way of doing it, which is not a reason to believe he knew anything about breaking any laws, he may have known he was breaking MIT rules, he may have run because it would look bad, he may have known that he could have his privileges if any revoked, he could have believed somebody could get in trouble because of him and was trying to avert such situation.

    He could have feared a number of things before he was fearing the "LAW".

    He didn't even had a history of hacking anything or doing white-hat stuff let alone black-hat hacking style, so how do you conclude he was fearing the law and knew he was breaking the law?

    You don't you assume, and you are trying to portrait a great young mind as some devious person hellbent on world domination, shame on you dude.

     

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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 6:28pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    And if this is the best that the IT department at MIT - arguably the most advanced and prestigious TECHNOLOGY institution in the nation - can come up with, in the future we are truly screwed.

    I respectfully disagree. To be honest, I feel that MIT is getting screwed in all of this too.

    I respect their vision of a truly open internet and deeply appreciate their commitment to unfettered network access. It saddens me to think this affair may cause them to rethink their commitment to such things.

    It's understandable though, with the legal atmosphere that we live in, it's getting harder to stand as a beacon of openness as the waves of liability crash against you.

     

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    Mike Masnick (profile), Jan 21st, 2013 @ 10:01pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    But that's not the issue here. The issue here is whether something of value was fraudulently taken. The party in Feist acquired the database legitimately, hence fraud was not the issue there. There was no false pretenses in Feist as there are here. The database in Feist was given out freely while the one here is licensed.

    I believe it is quite reasonable to argue that every one of your statements concerning Swartz is wrong above. Nothing was "fraudulently" taken. MIT had an unlimited license with JSTOR, such that users could download the content. They also left their network open. So, yes, the database here was "given out freely."

    As Kerr notes, "The false pretenses are provided by the false identification and spoofing of Swartz’ IP address and MAC address. Swartz was trying to trick JSTOR into giving him access to their database after they had specifically tried their best to ban him from doing so."

    That is an inaccurate explanation of what Swartz did. As we've explained repeatedly, due to the way that MIT's network was set up, and the way you do *NORMAL TROUBLESHOOTING* it is unclear that Swartz did anything involving "false pretenses."

    There's a good discussion on much of this here: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130119/19272321738/funniestmost-insightful-comments-week-techdirt .shtml

    Yes, you could argue, weakly, that his use of a fake name represented false pretenses, but in that case you, too, are guilty of doing the same thing right here on this site.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2013 @ 10:18pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Oh I do not disagree with you on this point. The key word in that statement is "if". Do not believe for one moment that I believe that I think that this was "the best that the IT department could come up with" - hence my second comment about the DOJ expecting that we are to believe that it was. As I asserted earlier, the steps they took could only be interpreted by any reasonable person as "normal bandwidth and resource mitigation procedures."

     

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    Beech, Jan 22nd, 2013 @ 1:14am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    And their copy was up on their website for the SOLE purpose of being copied. Aaron copied a copy that was there to be copied, licensed out as OK to copy by anyone at MIT.

     

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    Beech, Jan 22nd, 2013 @ 1:17am

    I love you techdirt community, but seriously, stop feeding the trolls.

     

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    Ninja (profile), Jan 22nd, 2013 @ 3:31am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    The issue here is that people like him just want to find any pretext to smear the deceased guy because he did things for society that go directly against his interests. However, since there's no reasonable points that can be used to smear Swartz he and the other MAFIAA minions will just focus on these small things and make circular arguments that do not stand to the slightest scrutiny.

    The positive part of this is that he generated enlightening responses. Other than that he's plain despicable.

     

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    Ninja (profile), Jan 22nd, 2013 @ 3:54am

    Re: Re: Re:

    fact is suicide is a highly cowardly and selfish act, there is no real excuse for it

    Never had to deal with depression, have you? Keep living in your rosy world where everything is simple and easily understandable.

    Moron.

     

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    Rikuo (profile), Jan 22nd, 2013 @ 4:06am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I don't know how I managed not to lose my temper when he wrote that. I attempted suicide once, was literally stopped at the last second just before I set blade to wrists.
    *Shakes head*

     

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    Ninja (profile), Jan 22nd, 2013 @ 4:15am

    Re:

    I have NEVER had to change the IP or MAC address to determine or diagnose a fault in the system or network

    Sure, in 1970 there were no such thing as the internet and complex networks.

    on the other hand if I wanted to hide my identity, the very first thing I would do is change my IP and MAC address as these are clear pathways (an identities) of the computing equipment you use

    On an open network that uses DHCP? Really? So you'll believe that I am Barack Obama because I have a registered user here, use a static IP and because I say so? After all, IPs are very good identifiers right? (note: there are about 2500 people connected through this IP right now) (also, at home I cloned the MAC of my computer to the router which makes me a criminal but never mind that, you can still identify who exactly is using the connection at any given time by just looking at the assigned IP address by the DHCP and the spoofed MAC, right?)

    So, who is making strawman arguments about why he would change his IP and MAC ?

    You are. My IP is dynamic at home. I've been assigned IPs that were banned on some networks because of some moron that used it. So I simply reset my modem and get a new IP. That's fixing a problem. If I get blocked for whatever reason I will change IPs/MACs to go through again and check what happened. But that makes me a criminal right?

     

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    Ninja (profile), Jan 22nd, 2013 @ 5:20am

    Re: Future deeds

    I agree with you to some extent. Except that you chose to talk about RSS when I'm fairly sure the "ALL" part was meant to his activism for freedom of information/speech as a whole. RSS was but a small part of it. I'm fairly convinced that if he went through this trial and emerged victorious he'd shift part of his energy into fighting this incredibly unfair system that put such a huge burden on him and on many other innocent (or not so innocent but far from real criminals).

    While I do agree that there has been some romanticizing it is fair to argue that he could have achieved a lot. Regardless of what you think, building a family, having kids is well within the scope of great achievements for many. If anything, he'll not be able to achieve anything now.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 22nd, 2013 @ 5:23am

    Another shameful loss

    It just occurred to me that one of the other things we lost with Aaron's decision is that this case had the potential to set some real legal precedent for reeling in the abuses of the CFAA by the DOJ. I would have liked to see the issues actually presented in court here. Fortunately, we instead at least get more attention and calls for change in the other issue of prosecutorial abuse which is also important. However, it is truly sad that the cost for that to happen had to be so high.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 22nd, 2013 @ 8:50am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    I appreciate the response, but I must note that you completely dropped your "database rights" argument--and rightfully so. That argument was really naive. You really don't understand much about how property works. That database is their private property. I'm not talking about copyright, I'm talking about the actually ones and zeroes that comprise their database. For you to pretend like it's strange that something they spend tens of millions of dollars licensing and collating shows an incredible naivete on your part. Who do you think owns it?

    It's just like how the Techdirt database belongs to you (or your corporation--I don't know how you have things set up). It matters not that some parts of it are copyrighted (like my comment here) and some parts are not (like the articles you claim to have dedicated to the public domain even though you're too lazy to actually put a notice on each article). Your database is your private property, irrespective of copyright law. You can limit access to it, and if someone bypasses your technical limitations, that's hacking. The copyright is immaterial.

    As far as the false pretenses go, I think it's clear enough that spoofing his MAC address and hard wiring in the closet in order to evade the actions that were being done to stop him from scraping the database show that he acted fraudulently. I understand that you'll adopt any plausible sounding argument that relieves Swartz of any wrongdoing (working backwards as you often do). I think that if you were being honest--a feat that I'm not sure you are able to do at times--then you would admit that it's fundamentally wrong to take a database that costs and is worth tens of millions of dollars as he did.

    I have Westlaw access. Do you think it's perfectly OK for me to use a script to bypass their technical restrictions so that I can download the entire database? Of course that's not OK. Why you can't just admit such a simple and obvious thing is really amazing. It's stuff like this that causes people like me to see you as an extremist zealot who is unwilling to give even an obvious inch.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 22nd, 2013 @ 10:03am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Google would have done it for free.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 22nd, 2013 @ 10:08am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    JSTOR spent money scanning the documents.

    Seriously, Google would have done it for free. These guys aren't very smart capitalists. That's the whole point of doing science, right? Not to make the world a better place through the sharing of knowledge but to make money for a few people, right?

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 22nd, 2013 @ 10:44am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    I keep seeing the word "database" bandied around here as if that is what was being downloaded. JSTOR is a central repository for numerous journals, books, articles, etc. Obviously, there is a "database" that functions like the "card catalogues" that used to be maintained by libraries. Such a library "database" enabled one to find the location of specific books, journals, articles, etc., thus enabling one to peruse the library's collection to secure them.

    The individual here, to my way of thinking, was using the "card catalogue" to find everything in the JSTOR library, and then attempting to download for eventual public distribution the entire contents of JSTOR's entire library, a library that he darn well knew was never intended to be copied en masse and published to the world.

    JSTOR exists to assist its users to perform research. The individual was not by any measure using it for the purpose of conducting research. Quite the contrary.

     

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    Mike Masnick (profile), Jan 22nd, 2013 @ 11:00am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    I appreciate the response...

    Followed by a series of ad hominems.

    This is why no one wants to waste time talking to you.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 22nd, 2013 @ 11:35am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    I keep seeing the word "database" bandied around here as if that is what was being downloaded.

    You're right, Swartz downloaded articles. JSTOR has those articles because it spends tens of millions of dollars licensing them. JSTOR in turn adds value to the articles by collating, indexing, cross-referencing and such, and then institutions pay JSTOR millions for access to the service.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 22nd, 2013 @ 11:46am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Followed by a series of ad hominems.

    This is why no one wants to waste time talking to you.


    You don't like discussing the merits with me or anyone else because you come out looking like a fool. It amazes me how terrible your arguments are when you actually do bother to make them. I'm not surprised you're so reticent to actually dive into a nuanced discussion. Your specialty seems to be throwing out a bunch of FUD to see what sticks. Actually hunkering down and running through the specifics isn't your strong suit. It's a shame. The upside is that a lot of what I used to attribute to your being evil is actually better attributed to your naivete. Run away from this discussion like you do every single other one where you get called out for being a fool and where you realize that you can't defend your silly position. You and I both know that you care about perception more than truth. You're not running this blog to get to the truth of anything. You're running it to spread your agenda--an agenda that you're too scared to defend against the slightest challenge. I'm sorry you don't actually have the goods. My mistake was in thinking that perhaps you did, but now I realize that you really don't. You have some good ideas, but that's about the nicest thing I can say about you.

     

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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 22nd, 2013 @ 1:09pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Your database is your private property, irrespective of copyright law. You can limit access to it, and if someone bypasses your technical limitations, that's hacking. The copyright is immaterial.

    And once again, what was taken was the copyrighted content, not the database itself. Why are you missing that important part?



    As far as the false pretenses go, I think it's clear enough that spoofing his MAC address and hard wiring in the closet in order to evade the actions that were being done to stop him from scraping the database show that he acted fraudulently.

    No false pretenses. No fraudulent acts. Aaron had implicit permission to do everything he did. It's you who is working backwards from the prosecution's version and refusing to see the nuances.



    I have Westlaw access. Do you think it's perfectly OK for me to use a script to bypass their technical restrictions so that I can download the entire database?

    If you have permission for unlimited downloads - then yes, absolutely. Using a script or paging through manually, that makes zero difference. Not sure why you are hung up on the "using script" part.

     

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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 22nd, 2013 @ 1:28pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    The individual here, to my way of thinking, was using the "card catalogue" to find everything in the JSTOR library, and then attempting to download for eventual public distribution the entire contents of JSTOR's entire library...

    We do not know that Aaron planned to release anything to the public. That is pure speculation.


    ...a library that he darn well knew was never intended to be copied en masse and published to the world.

    And perhaps that was injustice he was trying to expose. Should this all knowledge really be locked up in the first place?


    JSTOR exists to assist its users to perform research. The individual was not by any measure using it for the purpose of conducting research. Quite the contrary.

    That's immaterial. He was doing what he had permission to do. Nothing more, nothing less.

     

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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 22nd, 2013 @ 1:39pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Blah, blah, blah.

    You really need to get over this weird obsession you have with Mike. If chooses not to engage you because he thinks you're being childish, that's his prerogative. Grow up and get the fuck over it already.

     

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    John Fenderson (profile), Jan 22nd, 2013 @ 3:01pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    It's about fraud and hacking.


    Neither of which actually happened.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 22nd, 2013 @ 3:42pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Wait. Wasn't that the dissenting opinion? Also, how does copyright on dictionaries work?

     

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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 22nd, 2013 @ 5:57pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Also, how does copyright on dictionaries work?

    Dictionaries are covered under copyright because of the creative elements added by the publishers - format, actual wording of definitions, which words to include, etc.

    The journals in JSTOR would also be copyrighted or in the public domain. JSTOR's presentation of the journals could also be copyrighted. I have maintained that what Aaron did could be copyright infringement. (although a strong defense could be made against infringement, since he had permission for unlimited downloads and his intent to distribute remains unclear).

    The thing is though, this isn't a copyright case. The government choose to take matters into their own hands and charge him with wire fraud and violations of the CFAA by claiming he took something of value electronically.

    The question is what they are basing that value on? If it's the copyrighted content, that falls under copyright law. If it's JSTOR's "sweat of the brow", then the argument is that Aaron didn't take that, he only took the copyright material. It's unclear if there is any basis for the "sweat of the brow" argument anyways since the US doesn't recognize "database rights".

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 22nd, 2013 @ 6:21pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    He said what he said, and you have no shit of an idea as to what it means.

    This is supposed to be the brain of someone researching solar panels? Even an embryo can see that's bullshit.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 22nd, 2013 @ 6:31pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    The question is what they are basing that value on? If it's the copyrighted content, that falls under copyright law. If it's JSTOR's "sweat of the brow", then the argument is that Aaron didn't take that, he only took the copyright material. It's unclear if there is any basis for the "sweat of the brow" argument anyways since the US doesn't recognize "database rights".

    The documents he took were valuable--that's why he took them. He obtained something of value, the documents, via fraud over the wires. Hence wire fraud. That same downloading could also have sustained criminal copyright infringement charges (but the prosecutors did not bring these charges). Mike was trying to bring "sweat of the brow" and Feist into this to make the argument that JSTOR doesn't own its own database, but that argument confuses the copy from the copyright. JSTOR does own their copies, even if they hold none of the copyrights. Accessing those documents under false pretenses, such as bypassing technical measures, is fraud. If the materials taken were copyrighted, it's also infringement. Hope that helps.

     

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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 22nd, 2013 @ 8:02pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    The documents he took were valuable--that's why he took them.

    First off, his intent is only supposition and will now unfortunately remain so. You really can't say that's why he took them.


    He obtained something of value, the documents, via fraud over the wires.

    He was obtaining something of value with permission. At what point did that permission terminate?


    That same downloading could also have sustained criminal copyright infringement charges (but the prosecutors did not bring these charges)

    Yes. Any insights as to why the prosecution took this route? Better headlines or something?


    Mike was trying to bring "sweat of the brow" and Feist into this to make the argument that JSTOR doesn't own its own database, but that argument confuses the copy from the copyright. JSTOR does own their copies, even if they hold none of the copyrights.

    Now correct me if am wrong here, but aren't the remedies for discretions such as taking something copyrighted covered under copyright law and wouldn't that be the proper venue?

    We don't prosecute copyright infringement cases as theft for a reason. They are different things and are covered under completely different statutes, right?


    Accessing those documents under false pretenses, such as bypassing technical measures, is fraud.

    I've explained why I don't think it was fraud. Changing your MAC and IP addresses were perfectly legitimate activities on MIT's network prior to this affair. Implicit permission was given to do those things.

    As for connecting via hardwire, even that doesn't seem like something MIT restricts that much. I don't know for sure, but would guess dorm rooms and other places have network jacks available.

    Add on to of all that, Aaron technically had permission for unlimited downloads as an end user of MIT's network. Where exactly, in all of this, did that permission get revoked?

    Breaking into the closet (if that's even the case) could be trespassing. Incidentally, isn't that the only thing the local PD charged him with?


    If the materials taken were copyrighted, it's also infringement.

    Right. No disagreement there.



    Hope that helps.

    Sorta.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 23rd, 2013 @ 4:25am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    He didn't have unlimited downloads. His downloading ability was limited contractually and technically. He bypassed the technical restrictions with the code that he ran, with his spoofing his MAC address, and with his hard wiring in the closet. He was not obtaining something of value with permission. Both MIT and JSTOR were doing everything they could to stop him. This really isn't hard.

     

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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 23rd, 2013 @ 4:44am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    He didn't have unlimited downloads. His downloading ability was limited contractually and technically.

    Like I asked, where and when was the permission revolked? Just because they tried to stop the heavy downloading? Where was this contract you claim exists broken?

    Also, how are you claiming that Aaron was limited contractually on a connection that required no authorization and had no TOS? How does the contract between JSTOR and MIT magically extend to the end user?


    He was not obtaining something of value with permission. Both MIT and JSTOR were doing everything they could to stop him.

    Yes, They where trying to stop the heavy downloading - no argument there. I fail to see how that voided the end user's permission in any way. It's like a supermarket offering free samples that 10,000 people show up to get. It's a failure on JSTOR and/or MIT's part, not a breaking of the contract on the end user's part.


    This really isn't hard.

    You keep saying this and you are wrong. Nothing is a simple as your letter-of-the-law view. It's all the nuances of this
    case that I'm an trying to understand.

     

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  352.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 23rd, 2013 @ 5:17am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    When he logged onto the wireless network, he had to agree to the schools terms of service. That's where he used his "Gary Host" (ghost, get it?) credentials. And to use JSTOR, he had to agree to those terms of service as well. Those terms of service explicitly say that you can't scrape the database.

    Read the indictment: http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2012/09/swartzsuperseding.pdf

    Read JSTOR's terms of service: http://www.jstor.org/page/info/about/policies/terms.jsp

    5. Prohibited Uses of the Content.

    In addition to agreeing to any Content-Specific Terms and Conditions of Use, you agree that you will not: ***

    (c) attempt to override, circumvent, or disable any encryption features or software protections employed in the JSTOR Platform;

    (d) undertake any activity such as computer programs that automatically download or export Content, commonly known as web robots, spiders, crawlers, wanderers or accelerators that may interfere with, disrupt or otherwise burden the JSTOR server(s) or any third-party server(s) being used or accessed in connection with JSTOR


    He agreed to those terms and then violated them. He knew they had revoked his own use privileges by blocking his personal MAC address and he spoofed a new one to circumvent the restriction. This really isn't hard. He knew that he didn't have permission to do what he did, and he did it anyway.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  353.  
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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 23rd, 2013 @ 6:57am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    When he logged onto the wireless network, he had to agree to the schools terms of service. That's where he used his "Gary Host" (ghost, get it?) credentials. And to use JSTOR, he had to agree to those terms of service as well. Those terms of service explicitly say that you can't scrape the database.

    I was under the impression that the MIT's network didn't have a clickwrap TOS - so how enforceable their TOS really?

    As for JSTOR's TOS - was that a clickwrap? Were MIT's end users even presented with it since MIT had a license for unlimited downloads? Isn't your link for JSTOR access from the general internet?

    I understand that there may be contractual disputes in this thing, but that is civil law, not criminal isn't it?

    I really just don't understand how violating a TOS escalates to such extreme criminal charges, just because it was done with a computer. That's insane to me. It's like prosecuting the 10,000 customers in my supermarket scenario, even though the supermarket forgot to add the legaleze tagline of "while supplies last".


    Also, you keep pointing me to the indictment like it's the gospel truth. It's not. It's only one side of the story.

     

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  354.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 23rd, 2013 @ 7:53am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    As I said, he agreed to MIT's terms of service when he set up guest access, and then he agreed to JSTOR's terms of service when he accessed that database. I use JSTOR frequently, and I've agreed to those same conditions. Whether or not violating TOS is itself criminal is something the courts are dealing with now. He did not do this in a circuit where the courts have said such violations are not criminal. Regardless, his actions are fraudulent even without the TOS violations--which is Prof. Kerr's point. All circuits agree that bypassing technical restrictions (i.e., hacking) is fraudulent (and thus criminal). The TOS violations might also be criminal. I understand that the indictment is one-sided, but I haven't heard anyone deny or refute the relevant facts therein. Swartz was caught red-handed, so it's difficult to deny.

     

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  355.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 23rd, 2013 @ 8:06am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Let me point you to the text in the indictment since you seem unable to find it.

    Page 2: "JSTOR authorizes users to download a limited number of journal articles at a time. Before being given access to JSTOR's digital archive, each user must agree and acknowledge that they cannot download or export content from JSTOR's computer servers with automated computer programs such as web roots, spiders, and scrapers. JSTOR also uses computerized measures to prevent users from downloading an unauthorized number of articles using automated techniques."


    Page 2-3: "MIT authorized guests to use its network for no more than fourteen days per year, and required all users to use the network to support MIT's research, education, and administrative activities, or at least to not interfere with these activities; to maintain the system's security and conform to applicable laws, including copyright laws; and to conform with rules imposed by any networks to which users connected through MIT's system. These rules explicitly notified users that violations could lead to state or federal prosecution. Guest users of the MIT network agreed to be bound by the same rules that applied to students, faculty, and employees."

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  356.  
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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 23rd, 2013 @ 8:18am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    I do hear your arguments and appreciate the debate we've had, but I am done for now. I've wasted too much time dwelling on this anyways.

    I leave this debate with pretty much the same feeling that I had coming into it - that what Aaron did wasn't "inherently wrong" in my mind what so ever.

    Taking into consideration Aaron's nature and values, the actual "crimes" and the DOJ's over-inflation of situation for whatever reason, it still doesn't sit well with me at all. But that is my problem, not yours.

    Fair well until we meet again.

     

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  357.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 23rd, 2013 @ 8:45am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    So in your mind, him bypassing their general security measures and evading their attempts to stop him specifically so he could obtain millions of dollars worth of documents is not "inherently wrong." I strongly disagree, naturally. I respect other people's property rights, and I'm glad when punks who think they can violate other people's rights get caught and punished. But that's just me.

     

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  358.  
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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 23rd, 2013 @ 9:09am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    I respect other people's property rights, and I'm glad when punks who think they can violate other people's rights get caught and punished. But that's just me.

    Ok, I guess I wasn't completly done. :0

    From a narrow letter-of-the-law point of view I can see how you would view it as such. I also try look at it from society's point of view too. Should such knowledge as research journals be locked up in such a fashion in the first place. I don't believe they should be.

    I would have viewed Rosa Park's actions in the same light, although technically illegal. I would have viewed the jury nullifications of the Fugitive Slave Act or of alcohol control laws during Prohibition the same way, even though it was the law of the land at the time.

    It's not always about the letter-of-the-law, it is also about what is righteous, just and beneficial to society as a whole. Just my 2¢ worth.

     

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  359.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 23rd, 2013 @ 11:48am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    I agree that we should do what benefits society, and I think it's abundantly clear that the copyright system does exactly that. You can focus on how works are "locked up," but I think you're missing the economic incentives that help to create the valuable works in the first place. And you're missing the economic incentive that gets JSTOR to spend the time, money, and energy to scan and collate and make the database more usable. Taking that database and "liberating" it would obviously better disseminate those works, but it would be at the expense of those who rightfully expect a return for the investment they put in creating those works in the first place. Nothings stopping people from working outside of the copyright system, and increasingly more people are doing just that. But I think it's important to respect people's wishes as to their content, and it's not right and downright undemocratic to do what Swartz did. There's working to implement change = good. And then there's taking things into your own hands and shitting on other people's rights = bad.

     

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  360.  
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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 23rd, 2013 @ 12:17pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Well, in talking about economic incentives for creating academic journals, I think you are bit off-base there. It's pretty much historically been a one-sided affair with publishers screwing over the actual authors at every chance they get. Not so sure your imagined high ground is really that high in real life on this one.

    Also, you know I'm not all that convinced the copyright system really does benefit society as much as you think it does, but that's a different discussion.

    And a lot of academic journal authors are now releasing their works (regardless of the publisher's wishes) to the public as a result of this affair. So some good may still come of it all anyways.

     

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  361.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 23rd, 2013 @ 1:42pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    The bottom line is that the copyright regime has brought us this incredibly wonderful and useful JSTOR database. The "free" regime has not. Wake me up when "free" actually proves itself, but for now copyright is clearly winning.

     

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  362.  
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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 23rd, 2013 @ 2:04pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    The bottom line is that the copyright regime has brought us this incredibly wonderful and useful JSTOR database.

    Umm. No. The requirement for scholars to be published in order to be accredited has created the content that JSTOR uses. Even if it means they have to pay money to be published and/or have to turn the copyright over to the publishers. That's copyright being used to exploit authors and make a profit off of their hard work more than anything else really.

     

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  363.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 23rd, 2013 @ 2:30pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Nothing's been stopping "free" from proving that it's better. Again, wake me up when there's a comparable database created by "free."

     

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  364.  
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    Gwiz (profile), Jan 23rd, 2013 @ 4:53pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Changing IP and MAC address is not wrong

    Nothing's been stopping "free" from proving that it's better. Again, wake me up when there's a comparable database created by "free."


    Free (both kinds, gratis & libre) *is* gaining ground in the academic peer review system, although slowly. Open, electronic, self-publishing is becoming more and more recognized in academic circles.

    This article lays out the situation pretty well:

    http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/07/23/is-the-academic-publishing-industry-on-the-v erge-of-disruption

    The problem lies with the fact that publishers have had the upper hand for two centuries and have bilked the copyrights from the authors all along the way. Do you really think the publishers will give up those copyrights, even if it's for the betterment of society? Where exactly is the "promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts" in there?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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