Switzerland Questions Crazy Hollywood Claims About File Sharing... Ends Up On Congressional Watchlist

from the funny-how-that-works dept

Last December, we wrote about a report put out by the Swiss executive branch noting that, based on their research, it appeared that unauthorized file sharing was not a big deal, showing that consumers were still spending just as much on entertainment, and that much of it was going directly to artists, rather than to middlemen. In other words, it was a market shift, not a big law enforcement problem. At the time, we wondered if Switzerland had just bought itself a place on the USTR's "Special 301 list" that the administration uses each year to shame countries that Hollywood doesn't like.

That list doesn't come out for a bit, but there's another, similar list, put out by the Congressional International Anti-Piracy Caucus (yeah) that has added Switzerland to its "bad countries" list along with China, Russia and Ukraine. Italy also joined Switzerland as a "first-timer" on the list -- despite rulings that required ISPs to block access to various file sharing sites. The issue in Italy? I'd guess that a story we had earlier this year has something to do with it. After some political fighting, the government there basically decided to just stop regulating copyright issues online. There's also an upcoming fight about new copyright proposals coming in Italy, and this seems like a preemptive strike for some of Hollywood's favorite Congressional Reps and Senators to pressure Italy into approving bad laws that Hollywood likes.

Meanwhile, both Spain and Canada -- who passed legislation very much at the behest of American interests -- were removed from the evil part of the list and switched to "in transition." The message is not particularly subtle: do not, at any cost, question Hollywood's planned copyright laws, or the US government will shame you as a haven for pirates, no matter how bogus that claim really is. Hopefully governments in Switzerland and Italy resist such obvious lobbying on behalf of special interests and pay attention to reality in those markets.


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(Flattened / Threaded)

  1.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 8:41am

    Does anyone still need more proof that the US government is totally corrupted by corporate money?

    If so, you are either rich, incredibly dim, or in the “denial” stage of grieving over the total loss of US voter control of the US government.

     

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  2.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 8:47am

    We are of a like mind. We can and will stop the insidious printing press from destroying our culture and disseminating ideas that go counter to our way of thinking!

     

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  3.  
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    Drew Farkas (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 8:47am

    America's Opinion

    I just don't understand how America's opinion has that much sway. Who cares what we think? The USA gives money to a lot of countries, sure, but (as seen in the countries always at Israel's throat) we continue giving money, even if they're attacking our allies. I really doubt being on a piracy watchlist could threaten the gravy train. And aside from free money, I can't see any other reason they might worry -- it's not like we're going to go to war over it.

     

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  4.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 8:49am

    This is absolutely legitimate.

    When I think of Switzerland, the word that immediately pops into my mind is copyright infringement.

     

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  5.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 8:52am

    Re: America's Opinion

    sarcasm right?

     

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  6.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 8:53am

    Various research studies are regularly cited here for the proposition that piracy is at worst benign.

    The below paper examines several such studies and the analytical methods employed:

    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2132153

    Its conclusion seems to cut across the grain of "benign-ity".

     

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  7.  
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    Shmerl, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 8:56am

    It'll be funny when those lists will include the majority of the world countries.

     

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  8.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 8:59am

    Re:

    Funded by the MPAA.

    Nuff said.

     

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    average_joe (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 9:01am

    Re:

    Various research studies are regularly cited here for the proposition that piracy is at worst benign.

    The below paper examines several such studies and the analytical methods employed:

    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2132153

    Its conclusion seems to cut across the grain of "benign-ity".


    Who let you in here? Did you not get your Kool-Aid at the door? You're not supposed to question the man behind the curtain. Just agree with everything he says and there won't be any trouble. Got it?

     

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  10.  
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    gorehound (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 9:01am

    Re:

    I am not dumb and I see it.I am waiting for a Revolution.I hate this Government.I would love to see the Corrupt Officials Tarred & Feathered in Public by the People and for the People.
    Our Government is Totally Corrupt and full of greasy palm A-Holes.

     

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  11.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 9:18am

    I hope many more countries end up on that watchlist and the sooner the better. Every country should be that free and progressive.

     

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    average_joe (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 9:21am

    Re: Re:

    Funded by the MPAA.

    Nuff said.


    In other words, you can't refute any of it on the merits. Convincing.

     

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  13.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 9:22am

    Switzerland don't care! Switzerland don't give a shit!!!

     

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  14.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 9:25am

    Re: Re:

    Nothing quite like a closed mind. I take the authors at their word that the research is their own and was done with any outside influence.

    Try reading it before dismissing it simply because of the funding source.

     

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  15.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 9:25am

    Re: Re:

    Actually, there's nothing wrong with questioning people. It's when you start stating "facts" that are supported by no actual facts or evidence that people begin mocking or ignoring you. As usually happens to you and ACs like the one above.

    Amusingly enough, someone has already pointed out that the one study that shoots down other studies, by sheer mindblowing non-coincidence, is one that happens to be funded by the MPAA. Because we know how accurate their "studies" are. Which are the reasons other studies are conducted, basically to shoot down theirs. Now we have one of theirs "shooting down" the research conducted by other studies. Even more amusing is that they have the gall to examine the "analytical methods employed" by other studies, when it's been shown repeatedly that they refuse to even allow others access to how they "compute" their findings much less what formulas they use to determine how bad piracy is and all that jazz.

    Yes Joe, we get it. You hate Mike, you dislike Techdirt and it's readers in general and so on and so forth. So now that you've patted your fellow troll on the back, can you add anything substantial to the discussion? Or can I just go ahead and hit the report button on your off topic and (thinly veiled) ad-hom laden post? [shrugs, hits "report" because he doesn't care what response Joe has, as it's irrelevant to the comment he's reporting]

     

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  16.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 9:26am

    Re: Re: Re:

    How do you refute something on its merits when it has no merits?

     

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  17.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 9:27am

    Re: Re: Re:

    It is a "non-technical" study on piracy, from "social sciences" students funded by the MPAA.

    If it had any less substance, it would be ethereal.

     

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  18.  
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    Skeptical Cynic (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 9:27am

    The list that should not have been..

    I am ashamed that the US is in any way backing this.

     

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  19.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 9:30am

    Re: Re:

    Still a raging idiot i see, stay classy..

     

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  20.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 9:32am

    Re: Re: Re:

    No, this is not a "shill" paper by "MPAA Proxies". Despite the reference to the MPAA, I took the time to read the paper (Disclaimer: I am not an economist by any stretch of the imagination) and noted it was directed to the methodologies employed in other studies. It makes what appear to be legitimate observations, so at the very least I would expect those who follow economic research to give these two researchers a fair hearing.

     

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  21.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 9:33am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Perhaps we would all benefit from your critical assessment of the published paper and where the authors have gone astray.

     

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  22.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 9:34am

    Can we get "kool-aid" trigger the comment spam-filter ? We're being flooded here!

    Pleeeeassse

     

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  23.  
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    Poppee, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 9:34am

    Italy pushing new copyright laws? Good luck with that. We're broke, and the technocrat government decided to leave copyright out of the recent reform proposals or they wouldn't pass. Any copyright reforms are only going to be discussed -- if they ever will -- after the 2013 elections.

     

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  24.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 9:37am

    Re:

    Now pass me that chocolat bar will you !

     

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  25.  
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    Loki, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 9:37am

    Re: Re:

    I saw a meme a while back that said that politicians should wear shock collars that give them a jolt every time they tell a lie or do something dishonest.

    I wholehearted disagree. I think the people who voted for the politicians should have to wear the collars and get the shocks whenever their chosen representative lie or do something dishonest.

    These people aren't electing themselves into office, and if people are too lazy to turn off American Idol and Jersey Shore and simply vote for someone simply because they claim to follow one of the two major philosophies people tend to lean towards without verifying their actual actions, then you get the mess we have in this country.

     

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  26.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 9:40am

    "or the US government will shame you as a haven for pirates, no matter how bogus that claim really is"

    Hey, some parts of the US, as well as Australia, were first colonized by a bunch of ex-criminals (mostly people who couldn't pay their debts in Britain) as a way of getting rid of criminals, and they turned out great. So they ought to embrace such a 'pirate haven'.

     

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  27.  
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    John Fenderson (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 9:40am

    Re: America's Opinion

    Perhaps it might have something to do with having the most powerful military in the history of mankind combined with the willingness to use it to get our way?

     

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  28.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 9:40am

    Re: Re:

    Nice flip-flop.

     

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  29.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 9:49am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Okay, fair point. But what about a study, from the same group even (and even paid for by the MPAA to show lack of bias), directed at the methodologies employed in the MPAA provided studies? You know, the ones banded about for politicians and hailed as the Gospel Truth regarding the scourge that is piracy. Those studies. The same ones I'm referring to that the MPAA says, "Sorry, classified trade secrets," when questioned by others about.

    Also, I didn't say this is a shill paper or was written by MPAA proxies. Don't put words in my mouth. I just merely said it's amusing given that they're looking at faults in the studies of others, when others have pointed out the faults of MPAA studies over the same thing (and at least the studies of those others have the decorum of being polite and reasonable enough to make public EVERYTHING in their studies, from formulas used to well... everything).

    Also, making what appear to be legitimate observations means nothing. I can make legitimate observations about the state of copyright and patents. But were I to do so, and as has happened and proof can be readily presented, I'll be called a pirate and labeled a thief and whatnot by people like Average_Joe. For making legitimate observations.

    So no, legitimate observations, while great aren't something you can just say, "Aha! Take that other studies!" too.

    But as I said, should these researchers be given access to and publish something on the MPAA funded and banded about "studies" then I will give them slightly more credence. Until then, I'll be sure to continue rolling my eyes. I don't believe everything I read. I prefer to read multiple things and then decide for myself based on all available evidence and facts what I think about a given matter. Which is the reasonable thing to do, wouldn't you concur?

     

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  30.  
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    average_joe (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 9:51am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Please explain exactly how it lacks merit. How is it wrong, exactly?

     

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  31. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
     
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    average_joe (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 9:52am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Don't hold your breath. They work backwards just like Mike. If it says piracy is good, it's gospel truth handed down by God. If it says piracy is bad, it's completely debunked nonsense that's completely devoid of substance.

     

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  32.  
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    average_joe (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 9:54am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Amusingly enough, someone has already pointed out that the one study that shoots down other studies, by sheer mindblowing non-coincidence, is one that happens to be funded by the MPAA. Because we know how accurate their "studies" are. Which are the reasons other studies are conducted, basically to shoot down theirs. Now we have one of theirs "shooting down" the research conducted by other studies. Even more amusing is that they have the gall to examine the "analytical methods employed" by other studies, when it's been shown repeatedly that they refuse to even allow others access to how they "compute" their findings much less what formulas they use to determine how bad piracy is and all that jazz.

    So you haven't read it and you can't address its substance. Got it. You assume that since some other study was questionable, then this one must be too. That's called working backwards. Did you learn that from Mike? He's the guru of that discipline.

     

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  33.  
    identicon
    Robert Hansen, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 9:59am

    corporatism

    corporatism = Fascism look it up

     

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  34.  
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    Richard (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 10:04am

    Re:

    Switzerland is an independent country. They can choose their own laws. (They have a more direct democracy - which helps).

    SO if thehy decide not to have copyright then it can't be infringed.

    You need to get some respect for other nations independence.

     

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    average_joe (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 10:09am

    Re: Can we get "kool-aid" trigger the comment spam-filter ? We're being flooded here!

    Must be terrible having to read dissenting point of views. Hurry up and block those views out! Censor! Censor! Censor! If you ignore it, it goes away.

     

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  36.  
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    average_joe (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 10:11am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Also, making what appear to be legitimate observations means nothing. I can make legitimate observations about the state of copyright and patents. But were I to do so, and as has happened and proof can be readily presented, I'll be called a pirate and labeled a thief and whatnot by people like Average_Joe. For making legitimate observations.

    You should hear the things I'm called for merely making legitimate observations.

     

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  37.  
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    Sam, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 10:14am

    Piracy

    I download it if I like it I buy it if it sucks I don't .

     

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  38.  
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    Andrew (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 10:15am

    Re: Re:

    Hm. Did you read the linked article?

     

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  39.  
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    Richard (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 10:18am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Ok - I've had a read of the paper.

    It is blatantly biased in its approach to the literature.

    Studies that suggest piracy does not impact sales are subjected to the severe critique (and it is possible to knock holes in any paper if you try hard enough.)

    Those that don't are reviewed quite gently.

     

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  40.  
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    Richard (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 10:19am

    Re: Re: Re:

    I've read it - it stinks.

     

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  41.  
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    nospacesorspecialcharacters (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 10:21am

    Ahem...

    Said it before, I'll say it again...

    The Swiss have the best representation in the world. The US government doesn't even know the meaning of the word 'democracy'. True democracy will only exist where career politicians don't.

     

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  42.  
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    terry (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 10:21am

    Re: Re: Re:

    A vote for Bill Clinton == 4 Year long shock therapy?

     

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  43.  
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    Keii (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 10:22am

    Re: Re: Re:

    A humorous idea, indeed, however I see a few issues with this.
    There are two ways of administering a jolt based on dishonesty. The first is automatic administering when the collar detects that the politician things they are dishonest about something. The second is that there is a 3rd party controlling when the collar delivers a jolt.
    The problem with the first scenario is that the politicians may not always think what they're doing is dishonest. They may truly believe something dishonest is the right course of action.
    The problem with the second scenario is that it's ripe for abuse. I mean a nice quiet job for the MPAA would certainly persuade someone's viewpoint on the honesty of a particular action.

     

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  44.  
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    Ricola Der fliegende Kuh, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 10:25am

    Torn from the pages of today's news:

    First Elected Pirate Party Mayor to Rule Swiss Town

    In the US government, this (like just about everything else) means war. I'd tell them to change the record, but I'd probably be violating copyright on the halting of self-immolation.

     

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  45.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 10:26am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I would not call MPAA financial impact studies actual "studies" any more than I would call local, financial benefits "studies" used by politicos when sports teams are trying to get taxpayers to cough up money to build them nice stadiums, basketball arenas, etc.

    This paper of course is an entirely different matter. Are the authors spot-ot? I do not know, because like I said I am not one well-versed in economic theory. Nevertheless, I do believe that their paper is worthy of fair consideration.

     

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  46.  
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    Robert Doyle (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 10:34am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Well that's one way to ensure no one ever votes again ;)

     

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  47.  
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    jason, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 10:38am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Exactly. Did you notice the use of "we believe" over and over? Not exactly convincing.

     

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  48.  
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    John Fenderson (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 10:41am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    You should hear the things I'm called for merely making legitimate observations.


    Hmm, just about every comment you make is laced with insults and baseless accusations, yet you think it is your legitimate observations that get a rude response?

     

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  49.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 10:41am

    Re: Re: Re:

    1. Non-technical as primary argumentation is problematic since subjectivity and preconceptions will inevitably colour the result.

    2. Using "major" papers exclusively as being from a large publisher is rather rich.

    3. I do not know why, but piracy having a negative effect on sales is not really a surprise. It is a surprise that there are no distinctions between the levels of piracy-effects in the document.

    4. The article almost exclusively goes in detail with the one result that could be an outlier. Again, that is a sign of preconception colouring the science.

    5. The structure of the article is very much based around having a preconception and judging based on it. A more methodic and non-specific review would iron out a lot of the problems but would probably obscure the result as to be less clear.

    In general I have no reason to doubt that most papers find a negative effect of filesharing. The argumentation and structuring is however a large detraction on the value of the rest of the findings. I would never use a problematic source like this in an article. It does, however seem like something MPAA, IFPI, RIAA and several other biased parties would use...

     

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  50.  
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    New Mexico Mark, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 10:46am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Not a problem. I just funded my own study. (The funding was in the form of a cold beer and the study was scientifically conducted in the form of some very heavy pondering over the course of a few minutes while watching a rerun of Gilligan's Island.) My study conclusively proves that the MPAA and its acolytes are a bunch of poo poo heads. So there.

    If you don't believe me, I may be forced to conduct a second study to prove that self-funded studies are GOOD.

     

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  51.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 10:50am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    And then people show up in the comments painting huge generalizations with the broadest brush imaginable. Just another day on Techdirt!

     

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  52.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 10:50am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "In general I have no reason to doubt that most papers find a negative effect of filesharing."

    I agree. Where TD and I tend to cross swords, so to speak, is that such papers tend not to receive much, if any, attention here...and that is the rub. I believe most people are capable of entertaining both pro and con thoughts from which they can make their own informed decisions.

     

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  53.  
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    surfer (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 10:52am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    YOU need the shock therapy.. everyone else on the planet sees the bullshit that is copyright today, wtf is blinding you?

    pay from the MPAA? thought so..

     

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  54.  
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    RD, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 10:53am

    Re: Re: Can we get "kool-aid" trigger the comment spam-filter ? We're being flooded here!

    "Must be terrible having to read dissenting point of views. Hurry up and block those views out! Censor! Censor! Censor! If you ignore it, it goes away."

    Reporting your comments becuase you are a jackass so they are hidden (but can EASILY BE SHOWN with a SINGLE mouse click) is not censorship. You have proven over and over that its not only justified, but necessary.

     

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  55.  
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    Cory of PC (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 10:58am

    Re: Re: Can we get "kool-aid" trigger the comment spam-filter ? We're being flooded here!

    "If you ignore it, it goes away."

    We tried... it just keeps back to stink the place up... and it won't shut up.

     

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  56.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 11:00am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    See Joe, there's a difference between legitimate observations and what you do.

    Coming in to every article and insulting Mike is not making a legitimate observation. Going into the Funniest/Most Insightful Comments of the Week EVERY WEEK and then launching 200+ comments along the lines of "why won't you debate me" and "but but but morals" and "yeah Mike runs away again" is NOT legitimate observations or even reasonable debate.

    It's you being a troll and a particularly annoying one at that.

    You get called things. Boohoo. Should we start going through every article and then citing YOUR comments insulting Mike, Leigh, myself and others?

    I bet we'll find for every one insulting you at least five made by you insulting others. In fact, I guarantee at least five.

    So get off your f*cking high horse. You want respect? Earn it. But don't come in here the way you do and then act shocked when others call you out or insult you for it. You get what you dish out. If you don't like it then perhaps you should try acting like an adult for a change.

     

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  57.  
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    average_joe (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 11:05am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Really? You haven't explained anything. Please explain how the specific critiques in the paper are incorrect. Just saying, "they're biased!" doesn't say anything.

     

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  58.  
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    average_joe (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 11:07am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Why do you think it is that Mike won't have an honest and open discussion about his beliefs? To me, that's proof that he's insecure and/or manipulative. Funny how he's so critical of everyone and everything--except himself. Whenever he's ready to stop making excuses and to start having direct and honest discussions, I'll be here. Until then, I'll have my fun pointing out his hypocrisy.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  59.  
    icon
    average_joe (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 11:09am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I'm insulting BECAUSE Mike has proven and continues to prove that he has no place in his life for an honest and direct discussion of issues that are obviously very important to him. What's he hiding? (Rhetorical question. It's obvious.) Don't confuse the symptom with the cause. If Mike were forthcoming and engaging on the issues, I wouldn't feel the need to constantly remind people that he's not.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  60.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 11:12am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Your mummy should have taught you it's impolite to discuss people in front of them, sheriff.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  61.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 11:19am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    But but HE STARTED IT !!!!
    Oh boy...

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  62.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 11:22am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    YOU DIDN'T ANSWER ZE QUESTION !!!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  63.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 11:26am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Who's that Mike guy you keep mentionning in the article ? He must have hurt you bad, poor baby boy. Let me kiss you on the forehead to make it go away. Pffffffffffff. See. Now wash you teeth and go to bed will you. I'll come and tell you a story about evil pirate Mike.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  64.  
    icon
    Tim K (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 11:30am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    People are pirating BECAUSE the Hollywood has proven and continues to prove that they have no place in life for technology and people willing to throw money at them.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  65.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 11:38am

    Re: Re:

    The US likes to bully weaker countries to their own will. And if bullying doesn't help then they'll bring their bombs and planes and tanks.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  66.  
    identicon
    Digitari, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 12:01pm

    Re: Re: Re: Can we get "kool-aid" trigger the comment spam-filter ? We're being flooded here!

    or just an ignore button

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  67.  
    identicon
    RD, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 12:02pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "If Mike were forthcoming and engaging on the issues, "

    He is forthcoming, and has stated many, many times where he stands, and what he stands for, on these issues.

    Just because you dont like what he stands for does NOT allow you misrepresent that and wave your hand at everything he says and dismissively say "if only you would tell us what you REALLY think" when he has done that more times than is necessary.

    Oh and a gratuitous ad hom for you (since you like using them so much yourself): hey, Average Jerkbag, stop being a whiny asshole. When EVERYONE tells you you are wrong, then

    YOU

    ARE

    WRONG.

    It's not the world that needs to change to your viewpoint, its you who needs to recognize your faults and errors. Don't whine like a little baby when the world doesn't capitulate to your tantrums.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  68.  
    identicon
    Digitari, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 12:07pm

    Re: Torn from the pages of today's news:

    TO: Swat Command

    From: Your Overlords

    RE:"self-immolation" copyright violation

    this is too close to "burn baby burn" extreme enforcement authorized

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  69.  
    icon
    Cory of PC (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 12:30pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Can we get "kool-aid" trigger the comment spam-filter ? We're being flooded here!

    Yeah, but even then it'll come back and whine how its comment was "censored" when it was just collapsed.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  70.  
    icon
    harbingerofdoom (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 12:39pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    invalid response due to the following reasons:
    loaded question
    tu quoque
    ad hominem

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  71.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 12:41pm

    if Switzerland and Italy were to tell the US to fuck off, perhaps more countries would do the same. what right has any country got to tell another country 'you are a naughty boy. you're not throwing people into prison when they share music and movies they get from the internet or after buying it from shops'. if the US are so worried about this 'heinous crime', stop exporting the shit the labels and Hollywood put out. if it was all kept in the US, there wouldn't be a problem. as for this list business? the US want to grow up!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  72.  
    icon
    Rikuo (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 12:51pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Why wasn't your original avatar not copyright infringement? Come on, I want a direct and honest discussion on that. Don't be so insecure and manipulative about that. Don't run away, like you always do.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  73.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 12:52pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Why will Glenn Beck not answer to claims that he raped and murdered a young girl in 1996?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  74.  
    icon
    The eejit (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 12:55pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Actually, I think it's necessary, not good. But that's a whole other issue.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  75.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 1:27pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I was a bit unclear there, sorry. What I meant was: "I have no reason to doubt that most of the examined papers find a negative effect of filesharing. I do not know enough about the subject to say the latter.

    Another specification is a comment to "2. Using "major" papers exclusively as being from a large publisher is rather rich." My point is that the exclusion criteria in itself bears a huge bias. If I wrote a paper on the effect of copyright I would have a bias in where I would publish. If my result was negative for copyright I would likely try and get it out through other means to avoid putting the reviewer and the paper in an awkward position. If I had a result that supported copyright I would be less concerned about that fallacy. That is an enormous problem with this article!

    I agree that techdirt is mostly focused on the anti-copyright sentiments. On the other hand: Kicking down arguments for a stronger copyright is a lot harder to do in a diverse fascion since the arguments against something mostly comes in repeating some problems that have already been mentioned to infinity. It is a lot easier to give arguments supporting the skeptics of copyright a fresh spin. Techdirt is mostly taking specific cases and giving it a spin and that is definately a way to keep the news inspiring.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  76.  
    identicon
    btr1701, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 2:45pm

    Re: Re: America's Opinion

    > Perhaps it might have something to do with
    > having the most powerful military in the
    > history of mankind combined with the willingness
    > to use it to get our way?

    Oh, please. We're not going to start carpet bombing Italy or invading Switzerland because they won't change their law on file-sharing and everyone in the world knows it.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  77.  
    icon
    JMT (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 3:37pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    And I'm sure if it was funded by Google or TPB you wouldn't give it the time of day either. Groups like the MPAA simply don't fund reports that come to conclusions they don't agree with.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  78.  
    icon
    JMT (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 3:43pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    You don't think MPAA dollars counts as an "outside influence"? These guys are in business to do one thing: make more money. They do not fund and then publish reports that refute the claims they've been making to the public and to the law-makers in government. The fund reports that help them, not hinder them.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  79.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 4:11pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    the problem being that while you opine that papers that demonstrate a negative effect are not addressed here, it has been repeatedly asked in the comments by regular readers to point us to such papers.

    I have been reading this site for many years and have yet to see a well-reasoned, cited, and evidenced response. If the paper is sound, the minds will be opened.

    The problem has been that the papers that have been pointed to (if any) are those that are a) industry funded, b) based on a methodology that presupposes the answer (assumes copyright is good), or c) is a logic-based paper with no empirical or directly observed evidence.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  80.  
    identicon
    N. Mailer, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 4:14pm

    Re:

    "Various research studies are regularly cited here for the proposition that piracy is at worst benign.

    The below paper examines several such studies and the analytical methods employed:

    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2132153

    Its conclusion seems to cut across the grain of 'benign-ity'."

    No, it doesn't. This site points out that the research papers find that damage is minimal. Your paper linked above concludes that damages exists. Both sides agree ... and so do I. Somewhere in the world there is at least one person who has torrented a movie she could have Redboxed instead because, and only because, "I want to save $1.25." Harm exists and it's benign.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  81.  
    identicon
    Milton Freewater, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 4:15pm

    Re: Re: Can we get "kool-aid" trigger the comment spam-filter ? We're being flooded here!

    "Censor! Censor! Censor!"

    The government is wiping comments off this board?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  82.  
    icon
    JMT (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 4:24pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "I'm insulting BECAUSE Mike has...[blah, blah]"

    No, you're insulting because that's just the kind of person you are. I have trouble imagining you're any more popular in the real world than you are here.

    "What's he hiding? (Rhetorical question. It's obvious.)"

    It may be ego-crushing to you, but maybe he has better things to do? You've proven countless times that you're just not worth investing much time in.

    "If Mike were forthcoming and engaging on the issues, I wouldn't feel the need to constantly remind people that he's not."

    The thing is, most of us are able to get a very clear picture about Mike's personal opinions, because we read the posts on his opinion blog. Your repeated demands for Mike to explain himself to you (beyond demonstrating an extraordinary sense of entitlement to someone else's time) just make it look like you're not smart enough to figure it out for yourself, despite it staring you in the face.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  83.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 7:08pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Wanting a fair and balanced copyright isn't being anti-copyright. Might seem a minor correction to some, but the distinction is quite important.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  84.  
    icon
    Ophelia Millais (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 7:13pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    The CMU paper, which notes and draws inferences from a trend in the conclusions of a particular sample of academic literature on this topic, is what Richard said is biased, not the critiques mentioned therein.

    Despite the CMU paper's bluster about methodology and its highlighting of certain critiques, its own conclusions seem to be based on a biased sample, selected through undisclosed means (aside from a preference for academic papers based on empiricism).

    The authors also acknowledged the outset that every paper they looked at is hard to compare because they all have such different focuses, data sets and methods. They further acknowledged that it's really difficult for any study of piracy's effect on sales to be methodologically sound, as there are so many unknown and uncontrollable variables. This is basically announcing that the whole exercise is unscientific, and you shouldn't draw conclusions from it. But then (no big surprise given their "generous" MPAA funding), they proceed under the assumption that the critiques and harm-concluding studies they chose to look at are unassailable, and that it's perfectly fine to make inferences based on a simple tally of harm-concluding and no-harm-concluding studies.

    Shall we tally studies that conclude that God does or does not exist, and decide this issue once and for all?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  85.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 7:17pm

    Re: Re: Re: Can we get "kool-aid" trigger the comment spam-filter ? We're being flooded here!

    Just like Sticky in Fallout 3... "Please shut it." "No, YOU shut it!"

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  86.  
    icon
    Ophelia Millais (profile), Sep 24th, 2012 @ 7:54pm

    Re:

    This is about international trade and protectionism—basic macroeconomics. Every country says, through tariffs and trade agreements, "if you want to sell more of your stuff here, we need to be able to sell more of our stuff there." The US, with these lists, is making a specific suggestion as to how, according to certain US industries, certain countries can make their markets friendlier to those industries' exports. Presumably, if those countries comply, they'll get something in return, like reduced tariffs on the products they really want to sell more of in the US. This kind of bargaining/bullying is something every country does. It's unrealistic to suggest that any country stop seeking to export any of its product, as long as there is a potential foreign market.

    The problem is that the US industries behind these lists are overstating the harm done to the market by Switzerland and Italy's failure to crack down on piracy. They're doing fine, and they would do fine in Switzerland and Italy even if those countries do nothing more than they're doing today. They're just trying to get more because they can...and because they really, really do not like the precedent set by governments who don't roll right over.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  87.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 8:36pm

    Re: Re: Re: America's Opinion

    That depends, those usually most at risk are countries that the U.S. have been particularly helpful to but with limited ability to fight back, especially if a large portion of their military spending has been with the US.

    From historical patterns it seems far more likely the US will attack the UK rather than Italy or Switzerland.
    Israel might also need to watch it's back.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  88.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 9:19pm

    Re: corporatism

    It doesn't!
    Would it kill you to check even wikipedia

    "Corporatist types of community and social interaction are common to many ideologies, including: absolutism, capitalism, conservatism, fascism, reactionism and syndicalism."

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  89.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 11:54pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "Okay, fair point. But what about a study, from the same group even (and even paid for by the MPAA to show lack of bias), directed at the methodologies employed in the MPAA provided studies? You know, the ones banded about for politicians and hailed as the Gospel Truth regarding the scourge that is piracy. Those studies. The same ones I'm referring to that the MPAA says, "Sorry, classified trade secrets," when questioned by others about."

    Did you read Mike's "Sky is Rising"? That was paid for by groups (aka, Google and friends) who would love to see copyright disappear.

    So Mike pulled together some numbers, ignored a whole bunch of reality, and generated the results they desired.

    Studies can say anything the writer wants, provided they are willing to be selective in their fact selection.

    The real skill is in going through a number of these sorts of things, and going back to the source material to see what is really there. When you do that, you can see the Sky isn't Rising, but rather that someone is digging a really deep hole so it looks further to the top :)

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  90.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 24th, 2012 @ 11:57pm

    Re: Re: Re: Can we get "kool-aid" trigger the comment spam-filter ? We're being flooded here!

    RD: The definition of an angry boy with a TOR connection.

    You really are a child, aren't you?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  91.  
    icon
    Seegras (profile), Sep 25th, 2012 @ 12:34am

    Re: Ahem...

    Well, I'm Swiss, and I'm not entirely sure.

    We've still got too much backroom-dealings going on (especially when it comes to things like "Intellectual Property" or "Law enforcement"), where EU regulations are taken over without anyone talking about.

    To be fair, it's the duty of the citizens (and representatives) to get informed about these things, and to demand a vote on them, but still, these international treaties get signed quite clandestinely, without much discussion or press reporting.

    And the political party the most concerned about "foreign influence" which claims to be anti-EU, is of course the one immediately signing (or even driving the adoption of) any kind of international "Intellectual Property" or "Law Enforcement" treaties.

    Well, anyway, the Swiss political system sure got its shortcomings, that's why I'm in the Swiss Pirate Party.

    But our democracy sure is a hell lot better than the "winner-takes-all", "two-party", "elect-and-have-no-say-anymore"-system of the USA.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  92.  
    icon
    Seegras (profile), Sep 25th, 2012 @ 12:49am

    Re: Re:

    They do fucking fine in Switzerland.

    http://www.schweizermedien.ch/fileadmin/schweizermedien/brancheninfos/medienbudget/2011_Medienbu dget.pdf
    (You can replace the 2011 with 2005 to 2010 to get older reports; in german).

    That's 3150 SFR (about 3350 USD) per household a year, half of which is spent on content. Not counting companies.

    Italy is a different case, since they've got no money ;)

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  93.  
    icon
    nospacesorspecialcharacters (profile), Sep 25th, 2012 @ 1:24am

    Re: Re: Ahem...

    Trust me... you've got it good.

    I lived in Zurich for a year and have to say when I left every other country I've visited since (including my own) has felt like a 2nd/3rd world crisis zone.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  94.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 25th, 2012 @ 2:14am

    Re: Re: Re:

    you scream "funded by google! funder by google!" about techdirt in order to try to delegitimize it yet you see the MPAA as unbaised.

    Funny how that works.

    Or are you ready to admit any funding(google or otherwise) isn't relevant to the validity of points raised?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  95.  
    icon
    Richard (profile), Sep 25th, 2012 @ 5:40am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Perhaps if you got beyond the second line of my comment.
    Let me do a referee's report on that paper (something I do professionally).

    The paper reviews a sample of the literature on the subject. It notes that the majority of studies arrive at a conclusion that piracy does impact sales. However none of the papers in that majority has its methodology examined and critiqued. In contrast the group of dissenting papers is subjected to a severe questioning in an obvious attempt to discredit their conclusions.

    Had the majority papers been subjected to a similar treatment it is certain that their methodologies could also have been demolished.

    If I were refereeing the paper for SSRN I would have rejected it.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  96.  
    identicon
    RD, Sep 25th, 2012 @ 7:25am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Can we get "kool-aid" trigger the comment spam-filter ? We're being flooded here!

    "RD: The definition of an angry boy with a TOR connection.

    You really are a child, aren't you?"

    Right, dont address the issue or point, just hurl insults in a vain attempt to look "superior."

    Ever answer the copyright question on your icon? No? Evading the real issues in favor of ad hom personal attacks instead? What a shock.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  97.  
    icon
    Idobek (profile), Sep 25th, 2012 @ 8:37am

    Does this mean that the Berne Convention is null and void?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  98.  
    identicon
    btr1701, Sep 25th, 2012 @ 9:21am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: America's Opinion

    > it seems far more likely the US will attack
    > the UK rather than Italy or Switzerland.

    So we're about to invade England now, are we?

    You didn't happen to take a whole bunch of drugs before you posted, did you?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  99.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 25th, 2012 @ 10:07am

    Re: America's Opinion

    Dear Drew

    One hundred years ago, wars were fought with guns and bullets, bombs and house raids. Today wars are fought on the internet, with words (as it should be) we the Anonymous collective decree we shall give 0 fucks as to what laws breach our territories. The internet is ours, they can't have it, we are already, at war.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  100.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 25th, 2012 @ 12:15pm

    Re: Re: America's Opinion

    You forgot the whole

    "We do not forgit we do not forgive

    expect us"

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  101.  
    icon
    Ophelia Millais (profile), Sep 25th, 2012 @ 12:19pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    A-yup. I was just in Italy and dropped about €500 as a tourist...maybe it's not Italian money they're after. :)

    I think it's hilarious that the entertainment industry has to plead poverty whenever they talk about piracy, but then they have to wave their money around when it's time to show the investors how healthy the companies actually are.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  102.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 27th, 2012 @ 5:02am

    It's funny i'm swiss and im kinda proud to be on that list :)

    Furthermore this weekend we had elections and in a little town a mayor from the "pirate party" has be elected!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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