Wyden & Udall Block FISA Amendments Act Until US Admits How Many Americans Are Being Spied On

from the would-be-useful-to-know... dept

We've been covering the fight that Senators Ron Wyden and Marc Udall have been in with the administration (and other members of Congress) concerning the FISA Amendments Act, in which the two Senators seem to be suggesting that a loophole in the law has allowed the feds to collect massive amounts of data on Americans without getting warrants. While they are unable to make the details clear, it sure sounds like the feds may be twisting the language of the Act, which was supposed to clear away some obstacles to collecting data on foreigners, such that they're collecting massive amounts of data on Americans. When Wyden & Udall asked officials just how many Americans had their data collected via this program, they were told it was impossible to answer that question. That alone should raise serious alarm bells.

Wyden and Udall have now put a hold on the new FISA Amendment Acts extension effort, saying that they don't want to hold back the important parts of the law, but are very worried about how it's being abused to spy on tons of Americans, despite that being against the clear intent. It does seem like a fair question to ask: just how many Americans have had their data surveilled under the law?
We are particularly concerned about a loophole in the law that could allow the government to effectively conduct warrantless searches for Americans' communications. Since we do not know how many Americans have had their phone calls and emails collected under this law, we believe that it is particularly important to have strong rules in place to protect the privacy of these Americans. We are disappointed that this bill does not attempt to add these protections.

The central provision in the FISA Amendments Act added a new section 702 to the original FISA statute. Section 702 was designed to give the government new authorities to collect the communications of people who are reasonably believed to be foreigners outside the United States. Because section 702 does not involve obtaining individual warrants, it contains language specifically intended to limit the government's ability to use these new authorities to deliberately spy on American citizens.

We have concluded, however, that section 702 currently contains a loophole that could be used to circumvent traditional warrant protections and search for the communications of a potentially large number of American citizens. We have sought repeatedly to gain an understanding of how many Americans have had their phone calls or emails collected and reviewed under this statute, but we have not been able to obtain even a rough estimate of this number.

The Office of the Director of National Intelligence told the two of us in July 2011 that ``it is not reasonably possible to identify the number of people located in the United States whose communications may have been reviewed'' under the FISA Amendments Act. We are prepared to accept that it might be difficult to come up with an exact count of this number, but it is hard for us to believe that it is impossible to even estimate it.
It really is incredible just how much it seems that the federal government is doing everything it can to avoid the basic checks and balances that are supposed to keep excessive behavior in check. Considering the bill is supposed to protect, not expose, Americans, it's scary that the government refuses to even estimate how many Americans are spied upon in this manner. Given the continued efforts and statements of Wyden and Udall, it seems evident that they're aware that the feds are treating this law in a very different manner than the public believes -- but they're held back from saying anything specific, due to much of the info being classified.

Even worse, however, is the attitude of Senate colleagues, who seem ready to push this extension through no matter what, so they can declare that they're helping to keep the country secure, without even bothering to understand the massive loopholes and likely abuse by the feds under the law. From what's been said, it appears that many in the Senate seem to take it at face value that the bill is only used for collecting info on foreigners, and thus they're voting from a position of ignorance. At the very least, they should be willing to speak out and demand the same data that Wyden and Udall are asking for: an estimate as to how many Americans have had data exposed under this bill. If it really is supposed to only focus on foreigners, but millions of Americans have had their info accessed, that seems like a problem that should be addressed, rather than one that should be swept under the rug, as most in the Senate seem interested in doing.


Reader Comments (rss)

(Flattened / Threaded)

  1.  
    identicon
    Rekrul, Jun 12th, 2012 @ 7:11am

    It really is incredible just how much it seems that the federal government is doing everything it can to avoid the basic checks and balances that are supposed to keep excessive behavior in check.

    If it really is supposed to only focus on foreigners, but millions of Americans have had their info accessed, that seems like a problem that should be addressed, rather than one that should be swept under the rug, as most in the Senate seem interested in doing.

    You keep using the word "seems" as if there was any question...

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  2.  
    icon
    alanbleiweiss (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 7:26am

    Clueless, corporate-paid-for ego-centric rights-sucking politicians will be the death-knell of this country. Thank God for the few who get it.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  3.  
    identicon
    Pixelation, Jun 12th, 2012 @ 7:29am

    Mike, let me say it here. You are likely at the top of the list for how much data has been collected on you.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  4.  
    icon
    That One Guy (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 7:31am

    You keep using that word. I do not think it it means what you think it means.

    What we have here is more evidence that the government seems to have forgotten a very basic idea:

    Laws exist to protect and serve the citizenry.

    A law may help the government out, but it should do so only in a way that enables them to protect and serve the public better.

    Sadly they seem to have completely forgotten this, and instead look at it the other way around, where a law is first and foremost supposed to help the government, and if it helps the citizens as well that's just an added bonus.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  5.  
    icon
    Richard (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 7:35am

    Re:

    How come it is terrible to spy on Americans - but OK to spy on "foreigners"?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  6.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 12th, 2012 @ 7:37am

    Re: Re:

    foreigners don't have souls

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  7.  
    icon
    alanbleiweiss (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 7:38am

    Re:

    I was going to flag this comment as "insightful" but you've stated what I think most of us already know to be true :-)

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  8.  
    icon
    The Groove Tiger (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 7:39am

    Re: Re:

    Because they're the enemy. Arguing otherwise is treason.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  9.  
    icon
    BentFranklin (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 7:40am

    Show your appreciation to Ron Wyden here.

    Show your appreciation to Marc Udall here.

    Positive reinforcement works.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  10.  
    icon
    TasMot (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 7:41am

    Re: Re:

    Because if for no other reason than it is garuanteed by the constitution that formed this country to protect its citizens from big bad government. You know, like when we got rid of England? And, like the one we have now. You remember, freedom from unreasonable searches, like the ones without being charged with a crime. Yeah, those freedoms that were garuanteed by our constitution. Unfortunately, these basic human rights were only extended to our citizens, and based on statements by Homeland Security, only if you are actually IN the country (reference to the right to sieze and search ANY and ALL property at the border without the constitutional protections we are supposed to have).

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  11.  
    icon
    alanbleiweiss (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 7:42am

    Re: Re:

    because foreigners aren't protected by the Constitution. So the government thinks it can abuse them and treat them like criminals more readily than it does with us, though to the last several administrations and congress's, the Constitution has mostly been a fantasy anyhow...

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  12.  
    icon
    jupiterkansas (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 7:43am

    Re: Re:

    Actually, Mike is pretty harmless because his subversiveness is done out in the open. Of course they have lots of data on him, because he provides it to everyone, but there's probably little need to spy on him.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  13.  
    icon
    TasMot (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 7:44am

    Why are most of them Politicians

    Why aren't most or even more of the Senators asking these questions? I have the answer to that. They are politicians to be politicians. After the elections where they seem interested in the consittuency, they are only interested in being politicians. The people they are supposed to protect and serve are distant memories, at least until another election season rolls around. Then, you have their ear and are their best buddy once again, after all, must have that vote to get back on the gravy train.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  14.  
    icon
    Killer_Tofu (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 7:45am

    A few good men

    I am happy to know that there are a least a handful of good people in Congress. While most of them seem to just be corporate lackeys who don't care about those who actually vote them in, there are at least a select few who still represent the people.

    Now if only we had more options and not a 2 party broken system, we could have representatives like this from all over the US.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  15.  
    icon
    BentFranklin (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 7:47am

    Whoops! Who knew there were two Senator Udalls?

    http://www.markudall.com/

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  16.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 12th, 2012 @ 7:47am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Really, Where in the constitution does it say that?
    Keep looking, I'll wait.

    On the other hand, our declaration of independence said something like "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, and endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights"

    Note that it did not say "all citizens are created equal"

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  17.  
    icon
    BentFranklin (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 7:47am

    Re:

    Whoops! Who knew there were two Senator Udalls?

    http://www.markudall.com/

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  18.  
    icon
    Gothenem (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 7:47am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Foreigners are gingers?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  19.  
    icon
    silverscarcat (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 7:51am

    Re: Re:

    Because it shows a lack of trust our government has with its own people.

    Don't people get upset at other countries for spying on its own citizens?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  20.  
    identicon
    Donnicton, Jun 12th, 2012 @ 7:52am

    Re:

    Forty or fifty years ago, Mike would have been a prime target for COINTELPRO.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  21.  
    icon
    The eejit (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 8:05am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    As a ginger myself, I concur with this. Our souls got eaten by Cartman and the MAFIAA. How else do you think they get so much money? They sell our souls on the black market, and charge it to the artists!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  22. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
     
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 12th, 2012 @ 8:05am

    Oh look, a grandstand, and Wyden standing in front of it.

    Mike, is your PAC going to specifically support this guy?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  23.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 12th, 2012 @ 8:12am

    We need more Wyden's and Udall's in congress.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  24.  
    icon
    Jay (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 8:12am

    Re: Re:

    You act as if that program went away. It's the one used in the FBI stings targeting occupy protesters.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  25.  
    icon
    Jeff (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 8:16am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    your sarcasm meter is defective... I suggest you contact the manufacturer and check about recalls of your model...

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  26.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 12th, 2012 @ 8:25am

    As 'security hawks' would say whenever politicians they trust are in office, "the constitution is just a piece of paper".

    At least some people in office are actually consistent regardless of who's doing the spying.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  27.  
    icon
    jupiterkansas (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 8:57am

    Re:

    If Wyden's grandstanding, then give me more grandstanding.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  28.  
    icon
    MonkeyFracasJr (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 9:10am

    If the law was written specifically to define how the gov't can "spy" on "foreigners" shouldn't the first sentence read:

    "IT IS UNLAWFUL TO PERFORM ANY INFORMATION OR DATA GATHERING ON ANY UNITED STATES CITIZEN WITHOUT A COURT APPROVED WARRANT FOR SUCH ACTIONS. NO STATEMENT OR WORDING IN THIS DOCUMENT MAY BE USED OR INTERPRETED TO BE USED TO CIRCUMVENT CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS OF US CITIZENS."

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  29.  
    icon
    MonkeyFracasJr (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 9:14am

    Re:

    Besides they can find out EXACTLY where FOREIGNER will be all summer with this handy tour schedule:

    http://www.foreigneronline.com/tourdates.html

    LOOK! LaCrosse WI on June 16!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  30.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 12th, 2012 @ 9:24am

    Re: Re: Re:

    That's not really true. Mike does a whole bunch of stuff that he never talks about online, and seems shy to even bring up. He appears to "consult" for a number of organizations, but doesn't want to mention them.

    He really needs to declare himself as a lobbyists, and perhaps open his PAC properly. The shadow stuff is pretty weird, if you ask me - and certainly enough to merit a little attention from the 3 letter agencies.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  31.  
    icon
    alanbleiweiss (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 9:32am

    Re:

    wait. we're talking about the U.S. government right? Since when did they become intelligent, honest, or respectful of citizen rights?

    Exactly. That's what I thought.

    Writing clear, obvious and blatantly direct legislation is "foreign" to them. And that means it's illegal!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  32.  
    identicon
    DOlz, Jun 12th, 2012 @ 9:54am

    Re: Re:

    Because xenophobia is the new patriotism.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  33.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 12th, 2012 @ 9:57am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    You know that saying "don't quit your dayjob"?

    A more contemporary expression might be, "DO NOT associate your day job with your Facebook Party-All-Night page."

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  34.  
    identicon
    DOlz, Jun 12th, 2012 @ 9:59am

    Re:

    And everyone who comments here. After all S̶a̶n̶t̶a̶ the government knows who's naughty and n̶i̶c̶e̶ not proven naughty yet.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  35.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 12th, 2012 @ 10:00am

    Re: Re:

    Grandstanding, hell, he's got my OK for a 6 year filibuster.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  36.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 12th, 2012 @ 10:01am

    Re: Re: Re:

    foreigners don't have souls

    +1 Insightful

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  37.  
    icon
    alanbleiweiss (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 10:11am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    okay I'm confused. You probably assumed that with your challenge that I go re-read the constitution. Except nowhere in your snark do you explain what about my claim that the government treating us like criminals was false re: the constitution.

    Because last time I checked, the Declaration of Independence didn't discuss citizens rights regarding rights to a speedy trial, the right to bear arms, or a host of other CONSTITUTIONAL rights we've been afforded and which now are trampled on regularly. And of course, it's not the Declaration of Independence that protects us as US citizens and thus separates our "rights" from those of foreign citizens.

    If I'm mistaken, because somehow my brain was swapped with a 5 year olds, please. Enlighten me.

    And then try to tell me how the Declaration was the document that affords you and I to rant at each other. :-)

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  38.  
    icon
    alanbleiweiss (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 10:14am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    hahaha defective? Methinks AC's sarcasm meter is not in the least defective. Sounds more to me as if the writer is a government stooge who got offended that I implied as I did... :-) Or a lawyer. Working for the government. Yeah. that's probably it.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  39.  
    identicon
    MrWilson, Jun 12th, 2012 @ 10:14am

    Re: Re: Re:

    It's probably getting used on Senator Wyden since he is obviously representing the people and that goes against "national security" interests.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  40.  
    icon
    Almost Anonymous (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 10:15am

    Re: Re: Re:

    We have always been at war with Eastasia.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  41.  
    icon
    alanbleiweiss (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 10:18am

    Re: Re: Re:

    yeah well I would suggest that if one takes the time to consider how much Mike reads on these subjects, that it wouldn't be difficult for some gov weenie to bring charges of espionage against him on the premise that "given how knowledgeable he is, surely he must be getting access to a bunch of secret stuff beyond what he "openly" talks about. Yeah - he probably has secret cabal meetings with other commies, so we should throw him in jail for life"...

    Because you know. That's our government at work. Making shit up about things they're scared of. :-)

    But since just my suggesting such a concept could actually give them an idea, I won't say it here. So pretend this comment doesn't exist. :-)

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  42.  
    icon
    alanbleiweiss (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 10:20am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I totally agree. The 3 letter agencies should include, in this case, the DMV. Because we need safer roads. And getting Mike off the streets should be a top priority. Of our not-wasted-enough taxpayer dollars.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  43.  
    icon
    Killer_Tofu (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 10:37am

    Re:

    It is rather telling of you that when a politician actually represents the people, and everybody loves them for it, then you come in and call it grandstanding.

    Yet when a politician is actively working to destroy what America was supposed to stand for, then you come in defending their every move like it was some sort of godsend.

    Very telling indeed. Pretty easy to see why you only ever post as an AC.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  44.  
    icon
    Almost Anonymous (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 10:41am

    Re:

    Oh look, a troll, and Anonymous Coward posting it.

    I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  45.  
    icon
    Almost Anonymous (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 11:39am

    Re:

    Yes, you are correct, but you left out the "loophole" that they are using:

    IT IS UNLAWFUL TO PERFORM ANY INFORMATION OR DATA GATHERING ON ANY UNITED STATES CITIZEN WITHOUT A COURT APPROVED WARRANT FOR SUCH ACTIONS. NO STATEMENT OR WORDING IN THIS DOCUMENT MAY BE USED OR INTERPRETED TO BE USED TO CIRCUMVENT CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS OF US CITIZENS*.

    *unless we really, really want to.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  46.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 12th, 2012 @ 11:43am

    There should a law against abusing loopholes to commit acts that would normally be illegal in the fucking first place.

    Erm maybe not they would just tag another word on it.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  47.  
    icon
    gorehound (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 12:30pm

    Re: You keep using that word. I do not think it it means what you think it means.

    And the Government is up to its neck in Corporate Money.They must be making some cash by selling all of us out.
    Oh, and if you the Government is monitoring my online activities then you already know how much I hate you.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  48.  
    icon
    jupiterkansas (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 1:21pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    You aren't shy to bring it up. So why not post your case file?

    Since when is consulting shady and evil?

    And there's nothing wrong with lobbying - it's the cash rewards and job offers that go along with it.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  49.  
    icon
    Belstain (profile), Jun 12th, 2012 @ 1:35pm

    Re:

    They'd just find a loophole in the law and do it anyway.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  50.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 12th, 2012 @ 2:12pm

    Re: Re:

    I LOL'd in my coffee.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  51.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 12th, 2012 @ 2:15pm

    Re: Re:

    They'd just put a loophole in the loophole legislation.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  52.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 12th, 2012 @ 6:10pm

    Re: Re:

    It's easy to "represent the people" by taking their side. In the past, it was called "bread and circuses". More recently, it's been called "network TV".

    Basically, playing the populist opposition character is an easy one. You rail against anything that makes the people actually be responsible, you support everything that gives them what they want for free, and you stand back and soak up all the support.

    Wyden is just at this point playing the populist Avatar. It's perhaps his best chance at get re-elected, which is what every congress critter aims to accomplish.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  53.  
    icon
    That One Guy (profile), Jun 13th, 2012 @ 1:27am

    Re: Re:

    *unless we really, really want to*.

    *Or it's a slow day at the office and we've got nothing better to do.


    You missed the second addendum to that one.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  54.  
    icon
    jupiterkansas (profile), Jun 13th, 2012 @ 7:37am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Then why isn't every congress critter offering free music and movies for everyone? If what you say is true, the Pirate Party would be in power right now.

    And what does Wyden being against the spying of U.S. citizens by its own government, which is illegal, have to do with people actually being responsible?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


Add Your Comment

Have a Techdirt Account? Sign in now. Want one? Register here
Get Techdirt’s Daily Email
Save me a cookie
  • Note: A CRLF will be replaced by a break tag (<br>), all other allowable HTML will remain intact
  • Allowed HTML Tags: <b> <i> <a> <em> <br> <strong> <blockquote> <hr> <tt>
Follow Techdirt
A word from our sponsors...
Essential Reading
Techdirt Reading List
Techdirt Insider Chat
A word from our sponsors...
Recent Stories
A word from our sponsors...

Close

Email This