Is It A Problem If People Only Discover A Musician Because They Have A Cool Kickstarter?

from the uh,-nope dept

One of the things we've heard for years, whenever we talk about awesome marketing campaigns and business models that musicians and other artists have put together, is that it's somehow a "shame" that the artists are getting attention for the campaign/business model, rather than the art itself. Even Amanda Palmer expressed some concern about this in a recent blog post:
the weirdest thing right now is that everybody KNOWS about it. i’m now famous for my kickstarter.

which is a little depressing. i wish that i could steal all that enthusiasm and high-fiving i’ve getting from strangers in the street (literally) and re-route it to the album when comes out. i don’t want this album to be remembered as “the kickstarter record.”

i do want this record to explode. and i want this record to explode because it is awesome.
There were definitely similar concerns about things like Radiohead's In Rainbows, where some said it's only known as the "pay what you want album." That said, Palmer immediately points out that she's not too hung up on this, and discusses repeatedly what a "fucking game-changer" Kickstarter is for the music business.

However, it did seem worth focusing in a bit on this point to think about it some more. Is it really that big a problem if people know you for doing something innovative that is indirectly connected to the art? I don't think so. The biggest challenge for many (probably most) artists these days is obscurity. They need ways to stand out from the crowd -- and often that goes beyond the music.

But none of that eclipses the music entirely.

Sure, some people may focus on the business model or the marketing efforts, but that's a fantastic conduit to the music. The only reason I learned about Amanda Palmer in the first place, years ago, was her efforts to get out of her major label recording deal, after the label (Warner Music) took her own videos down as part of their fight with YouTube. And, obviously, she's done lots of other interesting things that matter to the community here as well. Since first learning about her, however, I've become a huge fan of her music as well (and discovered that she puts on a fantastic live show).

Basically, everything that you do as an artist to stand out still leads back to the work. And the best gimmick in the world isn't that effective if the art isn't amazing too.

It's what we've said in the past: no marketing, no gimmick, no trick will "work" if you're not also producing awesome content. Sure, there will always be some people who support you for doing something cool in how you present yourself. But, as our critics always like to remind us, the art itself is still central. And no one's denied that. But we take it for granted that if you're going to make any of these new things work you also have to make good content. And if you make good content, but attract attention for a successful Kickstarter, it's quite likely that a bunch of those people will become true fans of the music (and the artist) as well.


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  1.  
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    Anonymous Coward, May 25th, 2012 @ 7:45pm

    Getting yourself known, gaining recognition, is part of the work required for any successful business. There maybe many businesses that build a perfectly good product or widget but don't advertise it whatsoever and so no one knows about it and they end up not succeeding (or going out of business). While other businesses that put in the effort and time to market and advertise an inferior product does better Is it a shame? Maybe, but it's part of free market capitalism and I don't see anything wrong with it. Look how much big Pharma spends on marketing and advertising. So are their drugs being prescribed based on how they best help patients, or are they being prescribed, at least in part, based on marketing? Can a cheaper generic do the same or better? Perhaps, but marketing is important or else pharma wouldn't do it. and that goes for any other business. So if marketing is such a bad thing then lets just ban all commercials.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 25th, 2012 @ 7:48pm

    "i donít want this album to be remembered as ďthe kickstarter record.Ē

    She doesn't have to worry about that, we're already calling the Smurf-Tits album.

     

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    Krish (profile), May 25th, 2012 @ 8:03pm

    This is all that went through my head when I read this:

    Record producer: Wow, your song at open mic night was great. I think you have real potential. I'd like to sign you to my label.

    Starving artist: Nah man, I want to be know for my music and not because I got lucky that some hot-shot producer saw me perform.

    Record producer: ...

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 25th, 2012 @ 10:12pm

    Sometimes it's the magician, sometimes people just look at the flash paper. Amanda is getting flash paper time, nothing much else.

    Can anyone actually name a song of the Radiohead album that did the name any price thing on, without looking it up? I doubt it.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 25th, 2012 @ 10:14pm

    Simple short answer - no it isn't a problem.
    Long answer - I'm sympathetic to Amanda's comment above. She's hopefully making headlines musically, not for her views on or methods of funding.

     

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    Robert (profile), May 25th, 2012 @ 10:53pm

    2cents

    I heard about Amanda from TechDirt. I had not heard of her previous band, Dresden Dolls. I went to YouTube, checked out a video or two and liked what I heard.

    That's when I decided that in addition to her being awesome and human and respectful and trying hard with Kickstarter, I would support her. It was because of her music that I agreed to support her in the end though.

    My tastes in music have changed a little over the years, so I wanted to see what style she has and her stuff is very good.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 25th, 2012 @ 11:27pm

    Re: 2cents

    Same here. Went to tpb, got her last album. Like what I heard, donated to her latest ks.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 26th, 2012 @ 12:02am

    The biggest challenge for most artist's is exposure. If their work isn't compelling enough, then that will be that and they'll fade from the spotlight, replaced by another. If their work is great then they will be known for their work. How they got exposure becomes trivia in the long run.

     

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    Ruud (profile), May 26th, 2012 @ 12:31am

    Attention - Interest - Desire - Action

    Even musicians have to follow this marketing mantra. You can make great music, but in these days you cannot get around the Internet to get people to notice you. However, without excellent art, you won't pass the "desire" stage.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 26th, 2012 @ 12:39am

    The next question is, how much time can you spare to develop your art to the 'excellent' stage, while spending time developing new Kickstarter campaigns?

     

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    PaulT (profile), May 26th, 2012 @ 1:09am

    To be perfectly blunt, it doesn't matter a jot how you discover an artist. Everybody discovers an artist in different ways, most of which have sod all to do with the label's chosen marketing tactic. They might come up in conversation, or recommended by a friend. You might see them as a supporting act at a gig, despite never having been exposed to their music before. You might hear their music in a film, commercial or TV show. They might be on the USB stick a work colleague hands you, a track on a CD compilation you pick up randomly at a charity shop, or playing in a bar from the owner's chosen selection.

    I can't understand why their chosen funding method would be a problem, especially as it allows free advertising before an album is even records. The only way it makes sense is the usual rubbish - the major labels and their sycophants are scared of losing control.

     

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    PaulT (profile), May 26th, 2012 @ 1:13am

    Re:

    If artists are concerned about that, they can quite happily hire business managers to take care of that for them. Despite the misdirections often posted here, nobody's saying they have to do everything themselves if they don't want to. It's only the system of the 1990s that's no longer relevant, not an artist having representation or management if the want it.

    The real question would be - if an artist requires so much time to practice their skills that they can't manage their own career, are they really good enough to deserve the funding in the first place?

     

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    PaulT (profile), May 26th, 2012 @ 1:17am

    Re: 2cents

    "It was because of her music that I agreed to support her in the end though."

    This needs repeating, I think. One of the more foolish assumptions these people seem to be making is that people are only supporting projects because they sound "cool" or they want the free gifts. The idea that people want to support the music - even if they hadn't heard of it before seeing the Kickstarter project - is something they don't seem to consider.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, May 26th, 2012 @ 1:23am

    Re: Re:

    As if label musicians do nothing but 'make' music all day. They have more business meetings and legal hassles daily, then any musician not working for a label has in a year. I remember reading plenty of times Bruce Springsteen complaining he spend most of his days talking to lawyers, managers, producers and marketing agents.

     

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    Richard (profile), May 26th, 2012 @ 2:36am

    Re:

    Can anyone actually name a song of the Radiohead album that did the name any price thing on, without looking it up? I doubt it.
    I can't name any song by Radiohead!

    Having said that I think that Amanda actually has a big responsibility to ensure that the first big Kickstarter Album is not rubbish.

    Since 99/100 albums are rubbish - and even 9/10 "successful" albums are rubbish that is quite a big deal!

     

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    Richard (profile), May 26th, 2012 @ 2:50am

    Re: Re: 2cents

    One of the more foolish assumptions these people seem to be making is that people are only supporting projects because they sound "cool" or they want the free gifts.

    The best cool projects are things you want because they are intimately linked to the music.

    As I write this I am looking forward to teaching workshops with some of my favourite artists - which - if everything goes to plan - will culminate in me going on stage (along with about 30 others) to form a backing choir for them at one of their Christmas concerts. This is a stunning opportunity - but of course it only makes any sense if I love their music - which of course I do!

     

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    PaulT (profile), May 26th, 2012 @ 2:52am

    Re:

    "Can anyone actually name a song of the Radiohead album that did the name any price thing on, without looking it up?"

    I can remember the opening track 15 Steps without looking it up. Jigsaw Falling Into Place was perhaps my favourite title, and a decent track.

    "I doubt it."

    One day, you might learn that other people have experiences, tastes and needs that differ from your own. On that day, you might start to grasp reality.

     

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  18.  
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    Blatant Coward (profile), May 26th, 2012 @ 3:44am

    Re:

    I don't need to look it up, I have it here on my Map of Tasmania.

    Okay sure she doesn't have the acclaim of a syntho boy band with major music label behind her, so what. Thing is she's making it as an artist doing what she wants without having to worry if her music will still be hers later.

    I don't know of any songs by the band "All Shall Perish" and the place their label sold their rights to was trying to sue their own fans much to their dismay.

    So, sweat equity, or give the equity to someone else when they do the work. This is not new stuff.

     

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  19.  
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    Jewell/Quepea (profile), May 26th, 2012 @ 4:20am

    Amanda and her Journey

    Kudos to Amanda. I admire her drive. I like that she is making it happen regardless of how she is getting the attention. I do question one thing. Did her being signed to a label(once upon a time)have ANY effect on her success? I believe that when the public knows that MAJOR labels liked an artist, no matter if they stayed with the label or not, that sends the message that the artist had good content for them to pay attention. I am not down playing her efforts, yet I am questioning the true power behind her getting exposure and public recognition. A pure grassroots group or singer would just be getting a few pennies from Heaven. I look forward to seeing how this story ends when the album hits. Reviews, Reviews, Reviews.

     

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  20.  
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    Cerberus (profile), May 26th, 2012 @ 5:00am

    How I got to like Amanda Palmer

    I had never heard of Palmer. Then, after reading some articles about her on Techdirt, heck, why not, I looked her up on Youtube. And I liked her! So I'm actually listening to her music now.

     

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  21.  
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    Michael, May 26th, 2012 @ 6:13am

    "It's what we've said in the past: no marketing, no gimmick, no trick will "work" if you're not also producing awesome content. Sure, there will always be some people who support you for doing something cool in how you present yourself. But, as our critics always like to remind us, the art itself is still central. And no one's denied that. But we take it for granted that if you're going to make any of these new things work you also have to make good content. And if you make good content, but attract attention for a successful Kickstarter, it's quite likely that a bunch of those people will become true fans of the music (and the artist) as well."

    Perhaps you were referring to myself when you said "critics" as I was the only one (that I know of) who was adamant about the music being of high-quality.

    Despite whatever method an artist employs in order to gain recognition, the music itself is what proves an artist's worth. Of course it's most desirable for an artist to be heard by as many people as is possible. Despite her previous label exposure, this will be the first time many have had a chance to actually listen to her music. First impressions are very important -- they leave a lasting impression on the listener, one which associates that artist with either quality or crap.

    At some point you've gotta ask yourself, "Is this the sort of music which I'll still be listening to many years down the road?" Simply put, does the art stand the test of time? (I still haven't heard Amanda's new album so I don't know.) It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

    At any rate, it's always nice to see somebody steal some thunder from the major labels.

     

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    JustMe (profile), May 26th, 2012 @ 6:14am

    If you aren't a huge fan of the music...

    At least support the concept. I have supported over 30 projects on KickStarter. Not all of them get funded, and many are only of interest to 50 or 100 people, but I have found some really talented artists who are doing great things - and isn't the act of discovering new things what life is all about?

    I actually discovered A.F.P. via her connection with Neal. I supported their speaking tour even though they clearly weren't going to make it to my part of the world because they promised to post the full live show as MP3s. I am supporting her new album because I think that this is exactly what we need in order to break the 'gatekeeper model' where only an anointed few artists get the exposure.

    A.F.P. - I really like your UKE song. I'm going to start playing it on my Strumstick.

    Finally, yeah, the Smurf Tits pic is classic A.F.P. and will certainly become the unofficial name for the album.

     

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  23.  
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    Anonymous Coward, May 26th, 2012 @ 6:18am

    Re: "i don*t want this album to be remembered as *the kickstarter record.*

    YOU LIE!

    It is the Tits-smurfs album!

     

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  24.  
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    Corwin (profile), May 26th, 2012 @ 6:57am

    But the model IS content

    The business model, the marketing, the ads, the method, it is information in itself. I'm sure there are Amanda Palmer supporters who simply had a couple grand lying around and bought a vinyl+turntable pack more to support the message than to actually listen to the music, it happens all the time with modern art.

     

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  25.  
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    Anonymous Coward, May 26th, 2012 @ 7:07am

    Re:

    Not to mention big pharma marketing and advertising costs take away from R&D costs and so they could potentially reduce the quality of their products. Yet people (at least IP extremists) don't argue that their marketing should be banned or restricted because of that. This isn't much different.

     

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  26.  
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    Anonymous Coward, May 26th, 2012 @ 7:08am

    Funny ain't it back in the olde days I would find interesting artists in the cut out bins. that how I discovered Sparks, Loe Kottke, Steve Hillage a few others.
    The cut out bin records were only an hours wage back then.

     

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  27.  
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    Chosen Reject (profile), May 26th, 2012 @ 7:27am

    Re:

    Hello, commentators. Look at the parent post, now back to my post, now back at the parent post, now back to me. Sadly, the parent post doesn't get it, but if he stopped and thought about it, he could figure it out like me. Look down, back up, where are you? Youíre on Techdirt with the post the parent post could be like. Whatís in your mind? I know it. You know that marketing is always worthless and knowing a product from it's marketing is never successful. Think again, marketing should never be a part of the equation. Nothing good comes from marketing yourself. Iím on a horse.

    /sarcasm proving parent post's and article's point

     

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  28.  
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    gorehound (profile), May 26th, 2012 @ 9:55am

    Re: 2cents

    Being a musician and playing in Bands this movement is the greatest I have seen in Decades.
    I started jamming with others in the summer of 72 as a 16 year old playing in the Garage and the Basements of various house where friends lived at.
    1976 Summer I join the Punk Rock Movement as it best approached my feelings of Rebellion and moving away from the Big Corporate Music I hated.I loved the old 60's Garage scene and still do !!! Punk became the biggest change in Art and a return to the small record press.
    REFRESHER FROM 1960's ON
    1.All over the World small bands keep popping up in nearly every City doing Rockabilly, early surf, Folk Rock, ETC
    At this time putting out vinyl meant signing with a studio and you recorded there and they put your band out if they thought you had potential.
    2.Garage Rock (my fave) is born and with Louie Louie - The Kingsmen it does not take long for a million fuzzed guitar/farfisa organ Bands to pop up all over.At this time Bands start getting more freedom.They record themselves or pay a small studio.Some Bands save money and do limited pressing of vinyl.Usually seen in runs of 50 - 200 as it is expensive to do this whole process.
    3.1966- 1968 Garage Rock slowly gets heavier and more influenced by LSD and the Psychedelic Scene.By this time more and more acts just go DIY and many small rare and obscure Vinyl comes out either home recorded or recorded in a small local studio.Runs of Vinyl are usually 50 - 1000 pressed.
    4.1968 - 1974 Garage slowly gets phased out and moves on to Psych,Early Prog, Folk-Rock, Hard & Heavy Rock, and lighter type Rock Stuff.The phenomena of DIY still goes on and not dead yet Bands still do the DIY scene and press small.
    5.Meanwhile for all Big Label Krap from around 1970 or 71 the music they put out goes more and more for a Commercial Sound.At this time one can see the Larger Players are putting more things out not for Art but Money.
    Remember in the 60's the Large Labels signed a lot of cool acts like Iggy & The Stooges, MC5,ETC. By the early 70's this is a History not the way they now Act.
    6.Meanwhile 1972- 74 one can see a certain kind of "New Music" circulating around and this is a breathe of fresh air.Now we call these Hard Rockin Bands PROTO PUNK.
    7.1976 is when I come on the Punk Bandwagon and it returns me to those days in the Mid-60's when I was discovering a ton of Bands they never would play on the Major Radio Stations.Now I see that PUNK ROCK is just like GARAGE ROCK and any Band can "make it" if they want to.and not go near Corporate Labels to do it.
    Now is when I start forming my on Band,going out to support Local Boston Bands a good 5 nights per week, and then Recording on 4-Track Teac Reel to Reel local Boston Punk Bands and the first ones at that.I recorded a bunch of things for Unnatural Axe, LaPeste, and Thrills (GG Allin's Brother Merle Allin on Bass).I swear never to go near the RIAA or the Big Labels.And I swear to put out Music just like my heroes of the Garage Era did.
    8.1976 - the CD Era of the 90's
    In this time tons of Bands are formed and many have no dream at all of "Signing with RIAA" as they all want to do it DIY or go with a cool small Label.Things go great for everyone if you put some effort in.Sure you got to lug your vinyl down to the Post Office.And you got to make your own press kit and Art, ETC.But you feel great as you all did it !!! And with no help for a Big Lable !!! All of us INDIE as you say Bands love it.
    9.Things change a bit Right before the Internet......CD's come out and you got CD's, Cassettes, and Vinyl all being sold at the same time.Many Distributors of INDIE start clamping down a bit on taking your product.There are so many new DIY it is both awesome and confusing.But you persist and sell at shows and keep writing till someone or usually two "Distribute" your product/products.Usually you need a Distributor in Europe and one here in the States for N.America.Lots of work to do but still you are Free and Doing it and you all like that fact.
    10.INTERNET TIME !!! I put a Website up for Big Meat Hammer and my Art making me one of the first people in the whole state of Maine to do this.I put up big video clips ( instead of little postage stamp sized things) and I put up whole LP's of Music.I use a DOS Like Tool to make MP3's as there was nothing else at that time.I am one of the first here to explore what I know is going to blow up in a big way.Local Newspaper The Portland Press Herald does a full front page story on Art & Technology in Maine and I am the person they speak to on this and write of the most.
    Finally, I am relieved !!! No More carrying tons of stuff to snail mail.I make a cool Press Kit with various Fonts and images and output my Art as a PDF.Now I do not eve have to mail a press kit !!! Boy, I am getting Lazy !!! NOT Cause there is always emails to answer,website to update, and surfing the Net so I can "join" any of those now old and gone MP3 sites that let you host some tunes and write about your Art.
    This post is getting long so I will just End it by saying this:
    I Have Been Around Guys ! The Internet is the best biggest tool a DIY Artist will ever have.It is excellent for many reasons and I am very happy to see my Art downloaded by people from all over this World.And they write to me.One guy wrote to me from S.America and he had trouble speaking English.He asked me to write words down for my old tune form the 70s "Suicidal Tendencies" and that made me happy.He made a weird video and used the music to put on youtube.I was glad.I did not try to make him take it down or try to sue him.
    You Big Labels & RIAA...............YOU ARE GOING DOWN ! We the Musicians of the World are onto your evil ways and We Do Not Need You Ever Again!
    Long Live INDIE ! And Long Live Places Like Kickstarter !
    I wish you all a great career in the Art you do.Never sell out to the Man.

     

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  29.  
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    Suzanne Lainson (profile), May 26th, 2012 @ 12:03pm

    Palmer WILL be associated with Kickstarter

    Because she is currently the most money-earning music project, Palmer will be on Kickstarter's success story list until another music project tops her.

    This is actually a good thing in that whenever anyone writes about Kickstarter and successful projects, her name gets included in the story.

    That's the value of going through Kickstarter rather than doing it on you own. You get the benefit of any attention Kickstarter gets for being Kickstarter.

    I'm assuming Palmer has known all along the PR value of breaking a funding record on Kickstarter. She hasn't been the most successful across all categories, but she has certainly dominated the music category and will likely be their top music earner for a long time. I can't see any other musician topping her in the near future.

     

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    Chancius, May 26th, 2012 @ 12:23pm

    Response to: Anonymous Coward on May 25th, 2012 @ 10:12pm

    Ive never been someone who remembers the name of individual songs off albums, but with that said I think that may be one of my favorite albums of all time. There really isn't a song on it that I don't like.

     

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  31.  
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    Paul Keating, May 26th, 2012 @ 1:27pm

    All things pass

    As "modern" business models such as Kickstarter become seasoned the fact that anyone used them will become less and less significant. Sort of like thinking about AOL in terms of the millions of floppy disks and CDs it sent out or "you've got mail".

     

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    Suzanne Lainson (profile), May 26th, 2012 @ 1:35pm

    Re: All things pass

    Yes, if/when Kickstarter becomes the norm, there won't be a story anymore in using it.

     

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  33.  
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    Anonymous Coward, May 26th, 2012 @ 3:58pm

    Diablo III Launch

    There is definitely a story to be written about the Diablo III "fiasco" but it isn't really about DRM. This was probably the first time such a game had a midnight launch with so much digital distribution (and it wasn't just that you could start downloading the game at midnight--they let you do the whole download in advance of the launch).

    The result was apparently more traffic than they expected on their login servers right at midnight, with the result that almost no one could log on (but everyone kept trying so the servers remained swamped).

    Yes, if the game had included a single player version, people could have played around on that a bit before waiting for the server to come back up so they could create their real characters, but most people would probably have continued trying to log on and the servers would have been almost as swamped anyway.

     

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  34.  
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    The Groove Tiger (profile), May 26th, 2012 @ 6:45pm

    Re:

    Where as we can name that big label song by Shakira. What was it? Oh yeah, "Greasy Tits song", I think was the name... or was it "Shakira dances spastically semi naked song..."

     

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  35.  
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    art guerrilla (profile), May 26th, 2012 @ 6:54pm

    Re: agreed

    exactly...
    i think a couple others are making a similar point:
    *ain't* that the way it is *now*, times ten ? ? ?

    you get known because you are hot; you get known for some hokey tee vee show; you get known 'cause you slept with someone famous; you get known for a sex tape; you get known for some activist stuff; you get known for a gimmick; you get known for getting wasted and acting out; etc, etc, etc...
    (not to mention serendipity, luck, and fickle society...)

    BUT -far too often- you get known because some Big Media company decides to "make you a star", and all of us become subject to multi-million dollar, cross-licensed, synergistic, astro-turfed, high-profile publicity campaigns, until we want to puke at the millionth viewing of that flavor of the month being force-fed to us...
    otherwise, *how* many singers are 'recognized' and become 'stars' SOLELY on the basis of their 'artistry' and 'talent' ? ? ?
    if anything, the New Way promotes artistry over publicity agents...
    based on a true story...
    art guerrilla
    aka ann archy
    eof

     

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    Kevin (profile), May 26th, 2012 @ 8:31pm

    gave the best years

    Artists whose emphases is to get a big selling records are, for most cases, doomed. The artist who refines their live performances and do it because it is what they love live on.
    I spent most of my life entertaining as a singer, band member, actor and radio DJ. I never had a hit record nor did I became a household name. I did, however, earn a comfortable living, bought a house, raised a family, sent my kids to good schools and college. I have seen my fellow entertainers who traveled the fame and fortune road and of those only a handful remain in the business. The rest became disillusioned, went back to a 9 to 5 job or sunk into a mere existence. Those who just kept doing what they do regardless of fame and fortune are still performing and are generally happier.
    A wise man once said, "Do what you really love and the money will come" So the "Kickstart" CD, exactly what is the objective?
    Make a CD but make one you will be proud of be it a hit or not.
    The sound of applause is far more satisfying to an artist than having a top 40 hit.
    My friend, Barry McAskil, is now 71 and still singing and playing. His aceivements are plenty but his pride exists in an album his band, The Levi Smith Clefs, recorded in the late 70's "Empty Monkey" Do a Google and listen to the CD. It was never a big seller. It was never designed to be but has a special place on Barry's mantle.

     

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  37.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, May 26th, 2012 @ 8:48pm

    Re: Re:

    Paul, it will happen right after YOU realize the same thing. I doubt that many here could name any songs on there, but they can remember the promotion. The problem is the promotion is the sizzle, not the steak. It's perhaps the best way to describe all of this, a great insight into sizzle, and never delivering any steak.

    Remember Paul, your experiences are NOT those of everyone else in the world.

     

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  38.  
    icon
    PaulT (profile), May 27th, 2012 @ 2:24am

    Re: Re: Re:

    If ever you want to know why people think you're a troll and an asshole, look no further than this. You make sweeping generalisations based on a wild assumption. You're proven wrong, yet instead of admitting that, you then try to pretend that you were actually right because you assume that most people agree with your preferred reality. You literally ignore any information that doesn't conform to your assumptions, and that's pathetic.

    Cite any evidence you have for your claims, but I'll assume what "most people" think has been dragged out of your ass where you get all your other data from.

    "I doubt that many here could name any songs on there, but they can remember the promotion."

    I can't name any songs by Skrillex, but I see him being promoted sometimes. I can't name any songs by the boy bands being shoved down my throat by mainstream media like The Wanted, but I remember the promotion. There's a video that keeps playing in the bars I go to of a semi-ragga dance track with a black and white video that looks like it was shot in an abandoned building, but I can never remember with the artist of the title of the song, although I remember the video.

    By your logic major labels are a failure, because I remember these promotions but not the titles of the songs.

    " It's perhaps the best way to describe all of this, a great insight into sizzle, and never delivering any steak."

    The same could be said of any major label promotion. Your arguments are some of the weakest I've ever seen, it's pathetic.

     

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  39.  
    identicon
    Claude, May 27th, 2012 @ 3:18pm

    Amanda F. Palmer

    If I like the art and the artist is an asshole I still like the art and I'm willing to pay to see the art displayed even though I don't like the artist. Love the art but you don't have to love the artist.
    Now give me a cookie and milk and my day is done;-)

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  40.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, May 27th, 2012 @ 9:02pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "You make sweeping generalisations based on a wild assumption. You're proven wrong, yet instead of admitting that, you then try to pretend that you were actually right because you assume that most people agree with your preferred reality."

    Paul, you truly are a nutter. You are VERY guilty of the very thing you try to pin on me.

    The rhetorical question that you took so seriously is only to make a point, that few if any people can remember the music, and rather, they remember the sales pitch. Sizzle, not steak.

    What you are not getting is that your personal experience doesn't meet up with the experience of most of the rest of the world. Many people here make the same mistake (assuming, as an example, that everyone either uses unix variants - when most people use MS products). You need to learn that lesson, then you are much easier to take seriously.

    I apologize if you are unable to understand a rhetorical question.

     

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  41.  
    icon
    PaulT (profile), May 28th, 2012 @ 1:50am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "Paul, you truly are a nutter. You are VERY guilty of the very thing you try to pin on me."

    I personally love the fact that you truly have no other method of discourse than wild assumptions, then personal attacks and goalpost moving whenever those assumtpions are proven wrong.

    You haven't shown anything here, as ever. You started with a baseless claim ("nobody knows the names of the tracks on In Rainbows"), and followed that up with a challenge. I met that challenge, and instead of admitting you were wrong (that there are people who enjoyed the album and remember it clearly), you then try to move to a different claim - that "most" people don't know this. Of course, you won't state where you get this idea from, you just assume. I'll bet if someone managed to find a study that proved that most people who enjoyed the album do in fact remember track names, you'd move to some other assumption and pretend that was what you meant all along.

    As ever, I'm happy to discuss facts. You never provide them for some reason, so that's tricky right here and now...

    "What you are not getting is that your personal experience doesn't meet up with the experience of most of the rest of the world."

    I'm not the one attacking people for not holding that opinions. You are. What a shame you're so deluded, you try to pretend everybody else is against you.

    What's particularly sad is that all you're trying to do with this claim is to gather blanket assumptions from one band (Radiohead) and use them to attack another artist (Palmer), in order to pretend that the alternative business model she's been successful with doesn't matter, or has some moral failing. You will literally attack artists to try to retain the corporate status quo, and that's just sad.

    "Many people here make the same mistake (assuming, as an example, that everyone either uses unix variants - when most people use MS products)."

    Ah, another baseless claim. Care to cite where such an assumption has been made? I bet you won't.

     

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  42.  
    icon
    WDS (profile), May 28th, 2012 @ 3:05pm

    It's a circle, or maybe a spiral

    One of the reasons (notice I didn't say the only reason) that Amanda Palmers Kickstarter is doing so well is the fact that she has produced awesome content in the past. People trust that this album will be awesome as well. If it isn't her next Kickstarter effort probably will not go as well.

    By the same token a new artist that doesn't have an existing track record will not be able to have the kind of numbers on Kickstarter that she did, but that doesn't mean it can't be successful, and maybe their 2nd or 3rd effort could have those numbers.

    I don't think anyone needs to worry about being known only from their Kickstarter. If the content is crap, they won't be know for their next one.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  43.  
    icon
    jsf (profile), May 29th, 2012 @ 9:51am

    Re:

    "Can anyone actually name a song of the Radiohead album that did the name any price thing on, without looking it up? I doubt it."

    I paid for In Rainbows and I can't name a song title from it. But then I probably can't name 95%+ of the almost 11,000 songs that I have n my archive. 90%+ of which are of CDs that I purchased.

     

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  44.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, May 29th, 2012 @ 10:13am

    Amanda Palmer just hit over a million on the kickstarter, and 20,000 backers. 1:10 Eastern today.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  45.  
    identicon
    DC, May 29th, 2012 @ 9:21pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Sorry (not really). PaulT has you dead to rights.

    Goal post moving 101.

    1) When you follow a question with "I doubt it.", it is not a rhetorical question. It is a challenge, and your challenge was met. Later claiming it wasn't a challenge, it was merely rhetorical, and forgetting the "I doubt it" challenge part? 10 yard penalty.

    2) The whole point of the article was that no matter how good your steak is, if you don't sell the sizzle to some extent, you probably won't have a good business. If you simply want to make great steak, and abhor the idea of selling the sizzle, then by all means cook great steaks for your friends and family. However, most people who love doing something would go a step or two out of their comfort zone if they could make a living at it. 10 yard penalty.

    2.5) The title of the article was a rhetorical question (unlike yours ... no challenge issued).

    "Is It A Problem If People Only Discover A Musician Because They Have A Cool Kickstarter?"

    The answer was "No". You missed the point of the article on purpose, and I am ejecting your quarterback for spitting on the ref.

    3) Can you clarify the bit about how these cases are not delivering any steak? Is your definition of steak a song that dominates the mass market to the extent that I can't avoid it no matter how hard I try? That would be an odd definition of steak. For fans of Radiohead's cut of steak, I'm pretty sure most of them can meet your challenge to name a song off that offering. 10 yard penalty.

    4) I will reinforce Pault's experience. Given the artist, I probably could not name off the top of my head any song by any artist that has been mass marketed to me in the last 15 years. I don't have data, but it would surprise me if we were in the minority. 15 yard penalty for complete bogosity.

    AC? 5 yard penalty.

    I'll just repeat, that, structurally, your "rhetorical" question was not rhetorical, it was a challenge. Your bad.

     

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  46.  
    identicon
    DC, May 29th, 2012 @ 9:22pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Which direction are you trying to move the goalposts?

     

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  47.  
    identicon
    DC, May 29th, 2012 @ 9:28pm

    Re:

    I addition to not needing a label and signing away all rights in order to have someone else perform various business functions for you, I would definitely recommend that any musician or band develop their music to "excellent" level _before_ starting a kickstarter campaign.

    If said musician(s) had a lot of friend / family fans, they could do small stuff on kickstarter, but how time consuming would that be?

    Kind of basic AC.

     

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  48.  
    identicon
    DC, May 29th, 2012 @ 9:31pm

    Re:

    I think the critic label is being directed at posters like the AC who seems to be claiming these types of campaigns are sell "sizzle" but no "steak".

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  49.  
    identicon
    thebooksluts, Jun 18th, 2012 @ 2:46am

    Re:

    I don't think this is really an issue at all. Kickstarter does take time, but it's all based off of a project that you've already got in mind or have possibly already completed the first stages to . . . it's not like it's exclusive from artistry. Secondly, a Kickstarter campaign is short-lived (a month is the recommendation from KS for the length of the campaign), so it's not as though it's eating up all of the artist's creative time. Then, when you get to the gathering and sending out of rewards, many hands can pitch in on this--and a lot of collaborators have pitched in on AFP's Kickstarter.

    Lots of artists have already spent loads of time doing marketing for themselves, whether they're independent or signed to a label. It's nothing new.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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