Max Mosley Sues Google For Unflattering Search Results -- Creating Even More Unflattering Search Results

from the it's-like-a-slow-motion-collision-between-a-ROFLcopter-and-a-FAILboat dept

Max Mosley knows a thing or two about scandal. After an alleged "Nazi-themed" sex party was caught on tape and delivered to the entire world via News of the World (and the internet in general), Mosely attempted to wrangle an injunction out of the UK courts. It was pointed out that the "dam had already burst," thus rendering an injunction useless.

Undeterred, Mosley attempted to have a law crafted that would require that certain people (rich, famous, rich and famous) be notified by newspapers, etc. ahead of the publication of possibly damning information, presumably to allow said rich/famous people to file injunctions preventing the publication. Needless to say, this also failed.

But Max is nothing if not determined. Mosley is now bringing lawsuits against Google in France, Germany and for some reason, California in order to prevent the further spread of the Nazi sex party story.

In his testimony at the Levinson Inquiry, Mosley clarified his legal "strategy:"
I think we have litigation going on in 22 or 23 countries at the moment, and it's just an ongoing process because -- I mean I'm trying to do everything I can to get this material removed from the web and it's not easy, it's ongoing, it's very expensive, but Germany is actually the number one example. Because of the Nazi thing, it got very much picked up in Germany.
Yes. Well, Germany is still rather touchy about its position as world's greatest villain for years 1939-1945.
One of the difficulties is that Google have these automatic search machines so if somebody puts something up somewhere, if you Google my name, it will appear. We've been saying to Google, you shouldn't do this, this material is illegal, these pictures have been ruled illegal in the English High Court. They say we're not obliged to police the web and we don't want to police the web, so we have brought proceedings against them in France and Germany where the jurisprudence is favourable. We're also considering bringing proceedings against them in California.
As automatic as Google's "search machines" are, they don't add n to x randomly. If something shows up in the search results, it's because something exists on the internet. Whether or not these pictures were ruled illegal by a high court has nothing to do with Google's search engine. If the pictures are still available on the web, then Google will find them. The attempt to grant a search engine some sort of anthropomorphic properties (including a vindictive streak) is imaginative but hardly a sound basis for a legal battle. Notice also: proceedings are being brought where "jurisprudence is favourable," rather than for any sort of logical reasons.
But the fundamental point is that Google could stop this material appearing, but they don't, or they won't as a matter of principle. My position is that if the search engines -- if somebody were to stop the search engines producing the material, the actual sites don't really matter because without a search engine, nobody will find it, it would be just a few friends of the person who posts it. The really dangerous thing are the search engines.
Mosley, I'm going to give you the benefit of a doubt. Perhaps you just misworded your statement. Search engines don't "produce" anything. They can bring you results, but they do not produce content. (And when they do start producing content, I assume we'll hear even more whining from content producers, rather than less.) So, search engines aren't "dangerous." They're agnostic. Or impartial. Or (if we're granting them human qualities) "unemotional" and "uncreative."

Mosley is himself a lawyer. And he has engaged the services of other lawyers. Now, either somebody in this group is thrilled with the possibility of endless billable hours or no one involved understands search engines. Simply put, this legal battle will have no end. Every time Mosley files a suit or testifies in court, new articles appear linking him to the very event he's trying to get the collective internet to forget. If he would stop trying to make it all go away, chances are it would recede into the metaphoric past at a much faster rate. Right now, he's stuck in a loop and he's trying to sue his way out of it.

If Mosley is acting as the advisor for his legal team, he's in trouble. Here's a quote from his official statement that was presented to the inquiry:
It is sometimes assumed that the Internet is not subject to the law - that it operates as a sort of Wild West with its own rules which the courts cannot touch. This is a fallacy. The Internet and those that use it are clearly subject to the law like everyone else. It may sometimes be difficult to enforce the law because of the international nature of the Internet. But that is a separate question.
Ah. The Wild West. We never tire of hearing the internet compared to a dusty, corpse-strewn, sepia-toned image of the past. If anything, it's more like international waters, where national laws can't stake a claim, where gambling using funds from offshore accounts is rampant, pirate ships laden with freshly burned DVDs dot the waves and bottled water prices exceed even the most ruthless rave promoter's dreams. Or maybe it's more like Sealand, an offshore community that respects no national law and in return, is respected only by budding teen anarchists and people who think Neuromancer already happened.
We make a shopkeeper or a publican responsible for what they sell and to whom. There is no reason not to do the same to Internet service providers.
Another terrible analogy which makes one wonder whether Mosley is going to target ISPs if the Google lawsuits fail to produce the intended results. Blaming Google for unpleasant search results is a bit like blaming the guy manning the porn store counter for bringing you the porn you asked for. And blaming the ISPs for not preventing unwanted content from existing is like blaming the porn store for porn. Either way, it is not the responsibility of "search machines" or "shopkeepers" to police the internet to protect you from stuff. The internet does not exist to protect your reputation. Even if Mosley's recounting of the events is entirely factual and that the tabloid manufactured the situation for loosely termed blackmail, his complaint should begin and end with the offending publication. The dissemination of this sordid business is not the responsibility of Google, Internet service providers or a lack of a tamed "Wild West." And every piece of litigation only adds to the very thing Mosley is trying to subtract.


Reader Comments (rss)

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  1.  
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    BackPackAdam (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:08am

    I'm not saying I'm the only one who submitted the new link, but...

     

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  2.  
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    Pixelation, Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:08am

    Max Mosley had a Nazi sex party?

    My brain is scarred forever.

     

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  3.  
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    Hephaestus (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:11am

    I am so going to get "report"ed for this one ....

    "Germany is still rather touchy about its position as world's greatest villain for years 1939-1945."

    It wasn't 19,000,000 dead, it was 19 the US News-Content industry exagerated the numbers in the news reels ...

     

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    known coward, Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:14am

    why isn't he suing

    The people who posted the offending content?

     

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  5.  
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    Dark Helmet (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:15am

    Re: I am so going to get "report"ed for this one ....

    WTF are you talking about?

     

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  6.  
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    Malak (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:16am

    I think it's slightly disingenuous to highlight where he's failed to win legal action in his ongoing 'privacy battle', but not to point out that Mosley did sue News of the World and won, the damages for which were the highest in recent legal history for a privacy action, plus the claim that it was 'Nazi themed' was proven to be false.

    I don't disagree with anything you say regarding the pointlessness of his ongoing legal battle, but to downplay the cornerstone of /his/ justification seems a little awry.

     

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  7.  
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    Capitalist Lion Tamer (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:21am

    Re:

    I'd be more than happy to toss you a h/t but I caught this on my RSS feeds. Above the Law for me. Where'd you come across it?

     

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  8.  
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    Chronno S. Trigger (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:22am

    Max Mosley?

    I had totally forgotten about that guy.

     

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  9.  
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    Hephaestus (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:26am

    Re: Re: I am so going to get "report"ed for this one ....

    It was an content industry exagerated numbers, denial of the camp numbers from a german perspective, goodwin rule joke. I guess it didn't work.

     

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  10.  
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    Ninja (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:26am

    Re: Re: I am so going to get "report"ed for this one ....

    This is the average number of brain cells we lost reading about the idiot (Mosley).

    Well, it was worth the fun. 19M neurons for a good laugh.

     

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  11.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:26am

    I wonder if he knows...

    ...that it's available as a torrent? (Which means, of course, that his feeble attempts to censor it have already been completely defeated, forever.)

     

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  12.  
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    el_segfaulto (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:29am

    Re:

    Time to watch a pig get slaughtered to get that mental image scrubbed away.

     

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  13.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:29am

    "endless billable hours"

    I almost fell out of my seat laughing. ROFLOL!!!

     

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  14.  
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    Marcel de Jong (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:30am

    Re: I am so going to get "report"ed for this one ....

    if this was meant to be a joke, it's the most offensive one ever, and unbelievably unfunny...

    You should visit a prison camp or two, before EVER making such jokes again. Might I suggest Auschwitz in Poland and Westerbork in The Netherlands?

     

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  15.  
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    Josef Anvil (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:31am

    Streisand Effect.......FAIL

    Let's suppose that Google is to blame. If he were to win, what does that mean for social networks? Maybe Max hasn't heard of the viral nature of the web.

    "if somebody were to stop the search engines producing the material, the actual sites don't really matter because without a search engine, nobody will find it, it would be just a few friends of the person who posts it."

    REALLY????

    A few friends??? The average Facebook user has at least a few hundred friends. Add six degrees of separation to that and you have a ridiculous network of people sharing information.

    What about those email lists that we use to share all our jokes and funny videos at work?

    Fuck it. It's all Google's fault.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:32am

    BTW, we need to stop the wild west of frivolous lawsuit abuse. Mosley should be punished for filing so many frivolous lawsuits.

     

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  17.  
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    Marcel de Jong (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:33am

    blaming the porn store for porn

    This sentence "is like blaming the porn store for porn" painted a funny picture for me.

    "I demand that you tell me, how I got inside this filthy place, with its filthy books and videos. Oh yes, I've read and seen them all, and they're all incredibly filthy!
    Not to mention those dildos over there, I've tried them too, and they are dirty! You dirty scoundrel!"

     

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  18.  
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    Capitalist Lion Tamer (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:35am

    Re:

    I think it's slightly disingenuous to highlight where he's failed to win legal action in his ongoing 'privacy battle', but not to point out that Mosley did sue News of the World and won, the damages for which were the highest in recent legal history for a privacy action, plus the claim that it was 'Nazi themed' was proven to be false.

    This is true. Perhaps I wouldn't have been as disingenuous if he hadn't decided to bring this all back up to the surface again. If it wasn't for this pursuit of Google, the public would remember him as "the guy who sued the News of the World and won," if they remembered him at all. Plus, that lawsuit was squarely targeted at those who wronged him, while his other legal targets are all over the map.

     

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  19.  
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    AJ (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:35am

    You just can't fix stupid.... Not only is this guy making an even larger ass of himself, he's doing so in multiple countries, and in multiple languages...

    +5 Internets to Dark for the "collision-between-a-ROFLcopter-and-a-FAILboat dept" ... gave me a good laugh!

     

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  20.  
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    Dark Helmet (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:37am

    Re: Re: Re: I am so going to get "report"ed for this one ....

    Uh, I'm the posterboy for tasteless and offensive jokes, but I'd suggest the next time you want to make a joke involving the Holocaust.........don't.

     

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  21.  
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    iamtheky (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:40am

    Re:

    And Mike thought it was such a worthwhile story he forwarded to Cush for a guest post?

    I'm not saying you can't reach proper logical conclusions, but...

     

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  22.  
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    Capitalist Lion Tamer (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:41am

    Re:

    Dark can have his +5 Internets when I'm through with them. That's assuming there will be any left.

     

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  23.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:44am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: I am so going to get "report"ed for this one ....

    Quiet you. I like Holocaust jokes along with all other horribly inappropriate crap.

     

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  24.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:47am

    CAn i just check,

    is this what people shouldnt be talking about so everyone can stop talking about it?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosley_v_News_Group_Newspapers_Limited

     

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  25.  
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    Killer_Tofu (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:47am

    I suppose a few of you know this

    The 'wild west' wasn't really so wild.
    Inside the towns there were not shootouts all the time and the most recorded ever for an entire year for deaths by murder was five. Even the OK Corral had a grand total body count of three.

    While I could link to the original source, I am going to link to what first turned me onto the facts, which was written with great humor as you can probably guess by the link alone:
    http://www.cracked.com/article_18487_6-ridiculous-history-myths-you-probably-think-are-true. html

    I keep wanting to use the wild west wasn't so wild bit against the copyright maximalists, but you guys tend to get to refuting every single thing they say first, so I never end up feeling the need to bring it up.

     

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  26.  
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    Ilfar, Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:50am

    Re: Re:

    The more this news resurfaces, the less the fact he won the initial lawsuit is going to come up, and the more he's going to end up with Nazi Sex Party next to his name with no qualifiers.

    He's not just getting it spread more widely, he's causing the story to dilute and lose facts that work in his favour.

     

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  27.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:55am

    Re: Re:

    You guys need a larger by-line, or a picture, or something. This confusion over who authored a post comes up in every other thread.

     

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  28.  
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    GeneralEmergency (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:56am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: I am so going to get "report"ed for this one ....

    .

    Too Soon?

    .

     

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  29.  
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    Dark Helmet (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:56am

    Re: Re:

    "Dark can have his +5 Internets when I'm through with them. That's assuming there will be any left."

    Proof that this is a pirate site! Why are you trying to steal the internetz I clearly won by writing that line, which you then stole out of my brain and used in this article?!!?!?

     

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  30.  
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    Dave W (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:57am

    Re:

    I agree with comment above. When i looked at the evidence i have to agreed with him. Yes it was a sex party, was it Nazi themed - no not really.

    Of course the reason this offends Max so much - and which US readers may not be aware - is that his father is Oswald Mosley - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald_Mosley - leader of the UK Fascist Party and supporter of Nazism.

    Its not just Germany that is touchy about its Nazi past; Max is too.

     

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  31.  
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    Jerkface McGee (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 8:57am

    To produce

    Mosley, I'm going to give you the benefit of a doubt. Perhaps you just misworded your statement. Search engines don't "produce" anything. They can bring you results, but they do not produce content.


    Maybe he used "produce" in a different sense of the word. "To produce" can mean to make available or to present for view, as when "producing" evidence or a witness. In that context, you don't create evidence or witnesses, you find them and let other people access them. If that's what he meant, "bring you results" isn't too far off.

     

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  32.  
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    The eejit (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 9:00am

    Re:

    No, the News of the World paid someone to have a Nazi sex party and invite Mosley. That fcat that Mosley comes across as a twat all the time isn't relevant.

    It came up in the ongoing Leveson Inquiry over here in Britland.

     

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  33.  
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    TtfnJohn (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 9:07am

    Re: Re: Re:

    No, he stole the synapses that created the thoughts in your brain and therefore didn't steal your Internetz but only a teeny bit of your brain and reproduced what came from them after implanting them in his brain.

    You might be able to charge him for rental though.

     

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  34.  
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    TtfnJohn (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 9:09am

    Streisand effect, anyone?

     

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  35.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Dec 14th, 2011 @ 9:10am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: I am so going to get "report"ed for this one ....

    Oh yes, he should. It's a joke how Israel uses the holocaust today to justify their megalomania and their repression against Palestinians. Mind you, the Holocaust was no joking matter and most ordinary Germans had to go along due to the extreme dictatorship installed at the time. I know a German from that period and she tells nasty things the German Reich III used to do with Germans that opposed them. But this is no excuse not to joke with it. Too soon? Maybe. Bad taste? Maybe. Not feasible? Hell no. I'm sick of people treating this as some taboo and being hypocrites. Nothing against you Dark. Just thought some points should be made.

     

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  36.  
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    Hephaestus (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 9:26am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: I am so going to get "report"ed for this one ....

    Please, the more offensive the better. It might just get some of the brain washed, politically correct types, out of their stupor. And after Colberts Lowes terrorist skit that joke was nothing.

     

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    Capitalist Lion Tamer (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 9:27am

    Re: To produce

    Possibly. I did give him the benefit of a doubt. However his wording was "produce the material," which seems to be a much different animal than "producing results."

     

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  38.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Dec 14th, 2011 @ 9:27am

    Re: Streisand Effect.......FAIL

    Actually, it's more like 4.74 degrees of separation on facebook :-)

     

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  39.  
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    lucidrenegade (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 9:27am

    Re:

    "/his/"

    Looks like OOTB has a new account.

     

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  40.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Dec 14th, 2011 @ 9:29am

    Seriously, im still unsure if i should not be talking about max mosley and a nazi sex party. Is this the case?

     

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    Hephaestus (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 9:30am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: I am so going to get "report"ed for this one ....

    Damn hit submit ... in the US politically correct and shying away from offending people, and making offending jokes, has become the norm. This whole taboo subjects thing has got to stop.

     

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  42.  
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    iamtheky (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 9:32am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: I am so going to get "report"ed for this one ....

    I don't think any joke in the form of a one-liner, tired and rehashed denial would be funny.

    Standing in a long ass line for something no one really wants to do and remarking "damn this is jewish", is funny every time. Its holocaustastic!

     

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  43.  
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    Robert Doyle (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 9:33am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I am so going to get "report"ed for this one ....

    The more we try to forget it, the more we are doomed to repeat it.

    Make all the jokes you want.

     

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  44.  
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    Wolfy, Dec 14th, 2011 @ 9:44am

    Re:

    True, Max won that one... but he did it in the UK, where the libel laws are so stacked in favor of the accuser. If that case would have been brought in the US... well, it would be laughed out of a US court.

     

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  45.  
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    Aaron *Head* Moss (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 9:45am

    Re: I am so going to get "report"ed for this one ....

    For what it's worth, I chuckled.

    And for anyone telling you it's not ok to make Holocaust jokes... Fark em. 8)

     

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  46.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Dec 14th, 2011 @ 9:45am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: I am so going to get "report"ed for this one ....

    I thought he was trying to quote lyrics from that song '19'....wrong war....

     

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    AJ (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 9:47am

    Re: Re:

    Whoops! That will teach me to call someone stupid!

     

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  48.  
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    Malak (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 9:49am

    Re: Re:

    Well, he was probably /asked/ to testify before Leaveson... and to be honest I don't actually agree with you on the claim that he's primarily be remembered as "the guy who sued the News of the World and won", I really do believe that that's to that paper most people believe he was into Nazi sex games.

    Look, as I said, I don't actually disagree with anything you're actually saying

    He's wrong, what he's doing can't work, but basically (and I'm slipping into his narrative here) he's an old guy that doesn't really understand how the internet works, and he's been horribly entrapped by a tabloid and he's trying to repair the damage and flailing around somewhat in the process...

    He's only, what, 10 years out of date with his methodology?

     

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  49.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Dec 14th, 2011 @ 10:22am

    "We never tire of hearing the internet compared to a dusty, corpse-strewn, sepia-toned image of the past. If anything, it's more like international waters, where national laws can't stake a claim, where gambling using funds from offshore accounts is rampant, pirate ships laden with freshly burned DVDs dot the waves and bottled water prices exceed even the most ruthless rave promoter's dreams. "

    Apparently you never tire of revelling in the absence of the rule of law. Most of us look at the picture you paint not as a good thing, but as something to be entirely avoided.

     

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  50.  
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    Jake, Dec 14th, 2011 @ 11:06am

    Even if the NotW did stage-manage the whole thing, which wouldn't surprise me in the least, you've got to wonder why the son of Oswald Mosley would be going anywhere near a Nazi-themed sex party; it must have been like waking up in the night to go to the loo and walking in on a swingers party being held by your parents.

     

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  51.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Dec 14th, 2011 @ 11:15am

    Re: Re: I am so going to get "report"ed for this one ....

    lighten up

     

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  52.  
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    I-Blz, Dec 14th, 2011 @ 11:23am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I am so going to get "report"ed for this one ....

    That is awful, truly awful, and yet so damn funny! You, my friend, earned yourself a +1. +1 REPORT, that is. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA


    /sarc

     

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  53.  
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    Violated (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 12:46pm

    The Fourth Reich

    I expect what they mean by Google filling in content is their auto-complete service. For example if someone types in to the search box "Max Mosley" then Google will automatically recommend the words "Nazi Party".

    Well I can't approve of their censorship. This is a case of think before you open your mouth or more correctly realise what a little shit everyone will think you are if you believe it fun to dress up as a Nazi. A sex party only makes it twice as worse when then people wonder what type of mickey mouse operation it is you are running.

    The correct response to fix this disaster is to be humble and apologize, have those responsible resign or be fired, state this is only a few bad employees and not general company policy and then book annual trips for workers to learn about the persecution of the Jews.

    Now what do they do? Run around trying to have every sign of this event removed. Well if they can remove it then they most own it. Ownership means they did it. So enjoy your company drunken Nazi sex parties.

    Not good for business of course.

     

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    nym, Dec 14th, 2011 @ 2:12pm

    Sooo...

    I suppose he's not going to like me searching for "Max Mosley alien butt probe" either.

     

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    icon
    btr1701 (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 3:23pm

    Re: Re: I am so going to get "report"ed for this one ....

    > if this was meant to be a joke, it's the
    > most offensive one ever, and unbelievably
    > unfunny...

    Not even close to the most offensive joke in human history.

    Hyperbole fail.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  56.  
    icon
    Rikuo (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 3:38pm

    Re:

    Out_of_the_blue, is that you? If not, why copy his strange obsession with putting / in front of and after certain words?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  57.  
    icon
    Rikuo (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 3:43pm

    Re: The Fourth Reich

    I just typed in Max Mosley into Google and all the auto-complete suggestion thing-a-majigger came up with was "video", "case" and "son".

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  58.  
    icon
    Daexion (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 10:10pm

    Re:

    The cornerstone of his justification is pointless as Google cannot be held responsible for content someone else puts up on the Internet. Furthermore, it's irrelevant that he successfully sued News of the World because the two are completely different types of entities: one is a content provider, the other is a content indexer.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  59.  
    icon
    techflaws.org (profile), Dec 14th, 2011 @ 10:13pm

    Re:

    Most of us think that this is just another crappy anology that holds as much water.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  60.  
    icon
    Capitalist Lion Tamer (profile), Dec 15th, 2011 @ 1:07am

    Re:

    1. Click the "Wild West" link and read the post.
    2. Put 2 and 2 together to recognize the facetiousness of my statement.
    3. Defend the honor of Sealand?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  61.  
    icon
    Malak (profile), Dec 15th, 2011 @ 1:37am

    Re: Re:

    Seriously you don't wanna start on Sealand... :)

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  62.  
    identicon
    makomk, Dec 15th, 2011 @ 11:09am

    Re: The Fourth Reich

    He didn't dress up as a Nazi or pretend to be a Nazi. There was no Nazi aspect to his sexual activities. The Nazi part was made up out of whole cloth by the News of the World based on the fact that the particular... activity was conducted in German; they neglected to even bother to translate the German. That's part of the reason they were in such legal hot water.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  63.  
    icon
    Jeffrey Nonken (profile), Dec 15th, 2011 @ 11:55am

    Re:

    And the first rule of holes.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  64.  
    identicon
    DC, Dec 15th, 2011 @ 4:01pm

    Re: I suppose a few of you know this

    Interesting. Causality would be more interesting.

    Any possibility that in a disperse, low law enforcement population where most men had guns, most would be reluctant to use them?

    What about homicide rates rather than totals?

    Thanks for the link.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  65.  
    icon
    lrobbo (profile), Jun 8th, 2012 @ 2:14pm

    What a plank. A fundamental lack of understanding of how a search engine works.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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