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Hackers, ACLU, Consumer Rights Groups, Human Rights Groups, Many More All Come Out Against SOPA

from the an-avalanche-of-no-to-sopa dept

All day yesterday, we just kept getting more and more notifications of groups coming out against SOPA. Considering that SOPA-supporters keep trying minimize the complaints about SOPA, or pretend that it's "just Google" who's against it, the outpouring of anti-SOPA feelings really paints quite a different picture. Here are just a few of the anti-SOPA statements we've seen. First up, perhaps the most interesting of all, the folks at Hacker News -- basically home base to tons of techies -- have been getting together to send physical letters arguing against SOPA. The idea here is that physical letters are more likely to get attention than email (and this is true for some, but certainly not all, Congressional offices). If you'd like to send a physical letter, the link above makes it easy. And, as we've seen with most anti-SOPA letter writing systems, it lets you customize -- unlike every single pro-SOPA letter writing system, that only lets you submit existing text.

Next up, we have that bastion of "piracy," the ACLU. Yeah, that's a joke. The ACLU is hardly a defender of infringement, but is absolutely in favor of free speech, and quite concerned about the censorship mechanisms in the bill:
By their very nature, laws protecting copyrights constrain free speech and access to information. Unlike other speech restrictions, however, copyright laws may also advance the generation of information and ideas. A robust copyright system encourages free speech by giving speakers incentives to create and disseminate works of authorship. Such laws add to the marketplace of ideas by encouraging the creation of more content through the assurance that content producers will receive the fruits of their labor. But access to information of all kinds -- even disfavored information -- is a fundamental right that must be protected. Even more to the point, the mere existence of infringing content online does not justify the removal of non-infringing content in the course of attempting to rid the internet of the former. These established principles should not change or be treated differently just because technology has changed.

[....]

SOPA, unfortunately, is substantially worse than PROTECT IP. By eliminating the concept of sites 'dedicated to infringing activity', SOPA enables law enforcement to target all sites that contain some infringing content -- no matter how trivial -- and those who 'facilitate' infringing content. The potential for impact on non-infringing content is exponentially greater under SOPA than under other versions of this bill. As such, despite our support for the protection of the legitimate copyright interests of online content producers, we cannot support SOPA, and in fact we oppose it in its current form, given its broad sweep and its heavy hand that will land largely upon innocent content producers. We urge Committee members to focus not just on the goal of protecting copyright owners, but also protecting the speech rights of consumers and providers who are reading and producing wholly non-infringing content and to eliminate the collateral damage to such protected content. Only in that way will the Committee truly achieve its goal of protecting authors and allow the legislation to survive constitutional challenge.
The letter goes on to highlight exactly how and where SOPA infringes on the First Amendment. It also notes that passing SOPA would be setting a terrible precedent for the rest of the world.

Next up, there's a letter from over 40 different human rights groups, noting their concerns with SOPA and how it will create significant problems for human rights around the globe:
Through SOPA, the United States is attempting to dominate a shared global resource. Building a nationwide firewall and creating barriers for international website and service operators makes a powerful statement that the United States is not interested in participating in a global information infrastructure. Instead, the United States would be creating the very barriers that restrict the free flow of information that it has vigorously challenged abroad. By imposing technical changes to the open internet while eroding due process, SOPA introduces a deeply concerning degree of legal uncertainty into the internet economy, particularly for businesses and users internationally. Business cannot be conducted online when international users and businesses do not have faith that their access to payments, domain names, and advertising will be available, raising challenges to economic development and innovation. This is as unacceptable to the international community as it would be if a foreign country were to impose similar measures on the United States.

The provisions in SOPA on DNS filtering in particular will have severe consequences worldwide. In China, DNS filtering contributes to the Great Firewall that prevents citizens from accessing websites or services that have been censored by the Chinese government. By instituting this practice in the United States, SOPA sends an unequivocal message to other nations that it is acceptable to censor speech on the global Internet.
It still amazes me that SOPA's supporters don't realize what a big deal this is. Giving foreign nations the "ok" to censor the internet is a ridiculously stupid policy.

Next up on the tour of folks coming out against SOPA, we've got a bunch of public interest groups, including the American Library Association, Association of Research Libraries, Human Rights Watch, New America Foundation's Open Technology Initiative, TechFreedom, FreedomHouse, the Competitive Enterprise Institute, EFF, Public Knowledge and others.
We do not dispute that there are hubs of online infringement. But the definitions of the sites that would be subject to SOPA's remedies are so broad that they would encompass far more than those bad actors profiting from infringement. By including all sites that may -- even inadvertently -- "facilitate" infringement, the bill raises serious concerns about overbreadth. Under section 102 of the bill, a nondomestic startup video-sharing site with thousands of innocent users sharing their own noninfringing videos, but a small minority who use the site to criminally infringe, could find its domain blocked by U.S. DNS operators. Countless non-infringing videos from the likes of aspiring artists, proud parents, citizen journalists, and human rights activists would be unduly swept up by such an actions. Furthermore, overreach resulting from the bill is more likely to impact the operators of smaller websites and services that do not have the legal capacity to fight false claims of infringement.

Relying on an even broader definition of "site dedicated to theft of US property," section 103 of SOPA creates a private right of action of breathtaking scope. Any rightsholder could cut off the financial lifeblood of services such as search engines, user-generated content platforms, social media, and cloud-based storage unless those services actively monitor and police user activity to the rightsholder's satisfaction. A mere accusation by any rightsholder would be sufficient to require payment systems and ad networks to terminate doing business with the service; the accused service's only recourse would be to send a counter-notice, at which point it would be at the networks' discretion whether to reinstate the service's access to payments and advertising. This would bypass and effectively overturn the basic framework of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), by pushing user-driven sites like Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook to implement ever-more elaborate monitoring systems to "confirm," to the satisfaction of the most aggressive and litigious rightsholder, whether individual users are exchanging infringing content.
Had enough yet? Okay, well how about various consumer interest groups? Consumers Union, Consumer Federation of America and US PIRG sent a letter as well.
The bill would allow rights holders to send notices to payment processors and advertising networks, ordering them to cut off funding to sites the rights holders believe are "dedicated to the theft of U.S. property." However, this definition is extremely broad. Section 103(a)(1)(B)(ii) defines a "site dedicated to the theft of U.S. property" as including any site whose owner "takes active steps to avoid confirming a high probability" that it is being used (even by others) for infringement. This means that an entirely legitimate site can be defunded, and even enjoined entirely, merely because a few of its users may have infringed. Consequently, overzealous rights holders could shut down lawful exchange sites like craigslist, eBay, swap.com, or BookCrossing, closing off valuable outlets for small-scale buying and selling. For instance, a legitimate student-to-student textbook exchange site could be hampered or shut down by a publisher for the actions of just a few infringing users, raising the costs of an already-expensive education.

Secure online communication and commerce is also of critical importance to consumers. Yet, the bill could undermine the security of consumers. Section 102(c)(2)(A) allows for court orders that would block domain name system (DNS) operators from providing access to the Internet Protocol (IP) addresses of targeted sites. In other words, a consumer attempting to access an allegedly infringing site would get an error message or be redirected to another page. However, redirecting DNS queries (to phishing sites and other fraudulent websites) is also a common tactic used by malicious hackers to steal millions of dollars from consumers....

Finally, the bill grants complete immunity to a very large class of actors, including Internet service providers, advertising networks, advertisers, search engines, and payment networks, for cutting off access to a targeted site as long as they can claim their actions were taken in the reasonable belief that the site was suspected of encouraging infringement. This blanket immunity from all federal and state laws and regulations could allow the above actors to act in ways that would harm consumers. For example, Internet service providers could block access to online services that compete with their own telephone or video offerings under a justification of curbing alleged infringement, depriving consumers of legitimate alternatives to high-priced services. The broad immunity of the statute would prevent consumers or consumer protection agencies from policing or addressing such anti-consumer or anticompetitive.
Next on the list, we have a surprise entrant: the Brookings Institution. Unlike plenty of "think tanks" who are nothing more than lobbying shops in disguise, Brookings has an incredibly strong reputation for both intellectual honesty and credibility -- and thus it's widely viewed as one of the most influential public policy think tanks around. Not surprisingly, it's take may be a bit more measured, but it raises significant concerns about the cybersecurity impact of the bill:
I highlight the very real threats to cybersecurity in a small section of both bills in their attempts to execute policy through the Internet architecture. While these bills will not "break the Internet," they further burden cyberspace with three new risks. First, the added complexity makes the goals of stability and security more difficult. Second, the expected reaction of Internet users will lead to demonstrably less secure behavior, exposing many American Internet users, their computers and even their employers to known risks. Finally, and most importantly, these bills will set back other efforts to secure cyberspace, both domestically and internationally. As such, policymakers are encouraged to analyze the net benefits of these bills in light of the increased cybersecurity risks.
Also worried about the security angle is the respected security firm ESET, who makes clear the damage the DNS provisions will do:
Based on my work, and that of my team of researchers, I have to say that this legislation, if passed as currently written, would have a chilling effect on the economy of the United States.

More than 100 million Internet users in over 180 countries rely on ESET products to protect their personal and enterprise data systems. This gives ESET a unique perspective on the DNS filtering proposed by SOPA and PIPA. There is hardly any part of the United States economy today that does not depend upon the smooth operation of the Internet, which in turn relies upon the integrity of the Domain Name system (DNS). The DNS filtering proposed in SOPA and PIPA would seriously undermine that integrity.

While ESET fully supports the goals of protecting IP and reducing piracy, our experiences combating cybercrime for more than 20 years suggest that SOPA and PIPA will do little to advance these goals. What we are sure they will do is undermine valuable efforts to improve the security of the Internet. Without those improvements, expansion of the global digital economy, of which the United States is clearly a leader, as well as a leading beneficiary, will falter.
And, finally, we have TechAmerica, one of the biggest and most respected tech trade associations, representing over 1,200 companies -- and one of the most important organizations when it comes to helping to fundraise for politicians. I'd been disappointed that TechAmerica had been relatively quiet on this issue, so it's great to see it come out strongly against SOPA. After spending over a page agreeing that rogue sites and infringement are big problems, TechAmerica's letter notes:
Sadly, neither chamber of Congress has produced thoroughly acceptable legislation, but SOPA in particular marks a clear retreat from a history of Congressional support of the digital revolution. That support has often come in the form of not imposing regulation on the industry, and certainly never before has such a wholesale shifting of costs and responsibilities of property owners onto technology companies been contemplated -- a shift away from a careful balance and toward legislation that favors one industry over another.

Put another way, the approach taken in SOPA leads one to wonder why the DMCA would even be used in the future. Using SOPA’s proposed broad new inducement provision, one could simply ignore the current DMCA safe harbors and use intermediaries to accomplish the end goal, and if damages were warranted, merely later sue for infringement. Moreover, important measures to make sure that the proposals keep pace with technology, such as the DMCA requires with the triennial rulemaking on exceptions to the prohibition on circumvention of access and use controls, are non-existent. Along those same lines we are also dismayed that the proposed legislation relies on "simple" technical measures to address complex international issues that are likely better handled through diplomacy, negotiation, constructive dialog and coordinated action. The proposed "solutions" carry risk, perhaps significant, and are likely to be easily circumvented....

SOPA merely shifts costs from content owners, the rightful protector of their content, to various other parties, rather than making sure that costs are appropriately placed.

This is a philosophical issue that runs to the heart of both proposals. Do we really want government forcing one industry to subsidize another, to be required by force of law to assist another industry in being successful? More typically we expect industries to operate within a market framework and with the freedom of contract to solve such challenges. In this case, Congress seems determined to step in and force one industry to provide subsistence to another.
I'm sure there are some others that I've missed, but it's great to see so many organizations coming out so strongly against SOPA. Can defenders of the bill continue to pretend that it's just a small opposition now? Or that it's just those who wish to infringe who are opposed to SOPA's broad language and vague definitions?


Reader Comments (rss)

(Flattened / Threaded)

  1. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
     
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 16th, 2011 @ 5:07am

    I'm sorry, you lost me when you had a bunch of criminals and hooligans who routinely break the law (hackers) voicing their opposition to SOPA. Geez Apologist Mike, getting pretty desperate there aren't we. Then you go on to include groups like EFF (who is just a puppet whose strings are being pulled by Google). And so on and so forth. This article reeks of FUD. Sorry, but your Wild West free-for-all Internet days are done. As for these "consumer rights groups" and "human rights groups" all I can say is what about artists' rights? Of course you only care about the freeloaders, but not one person representing any artists is mentioned in this article. And by "artists" I mean ONLY people who matter (directors with 40+ films to their credit, musicians with 10+ albums to their name, etc. none of these whiny nobodys you trot out on a regular basis).

    /amidoingitright?

     

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  2.  
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    btrussell (profile), Nov 16th, 2011 @ 5:08am

    Half an hour and not one coward yet.

    Must've had their internet cut off after third strike.

     

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  3.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 16th, 2011 @ 5:12am

    SOPA...
    A turd by any other name is still a turd.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  4.  
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    btrussell (profile), Nov 16th, 2011 @ 5:16am

    Re:

    You mean parasite.

    I can fertilize my garden with a turd.

     

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  5.  
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    CSMcDonald (profile), Nov 16th, 2011 @ 5:23am

    yes but...

    None of the groups mentioned are part of any interest group that floods congress with money.

    They're just people who have a grasp on common sense and what the 1st amendment is for as well as what's in the best interests of the people of this country, not just the lobbying groups.

    In other words, they have next to zero chance of being listened to.

    yeah, i'm cynical.

     

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  6.  
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    Chronno S. Trigger (profile), Nov 16th, 2011 @ 5:25am

    Re: Re:

    Depends on the turd. You don't want night soil.

     

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  7.  
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    AJ (profile), Nov 16th, 2011 @ 5:29am

    Re:

    Considering I hit the report button before I got to the "/amidoingitright?", I would say this is an exceptional piece of trollism.

    +5 internets to you!

     

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  8.  
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    Ben (profile), Nov 16th, 2011 @ 5:30am

    A logical solution

    Infringers infringe content.

    There would be no infringement without content upon which to infringe.

    The existence of content is the biggest facilitator of infringement in existence.

    And who are the so-called representatives of the content industry? The MAFIAA.

    They are directly to blame for infringement, with their top quality content

     

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  9.  
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    Ben (profile), Nov 16th, 2011 @ 5:31am

    Re: A logical solution

    bah, the /sarc tag got cut off the last line

     

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  10.  
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    Tor (profile), Nov 16th, 2011 @ 5:37am

    Re:

    Oh, come on. You don't even understand the meaning of "hacker" and you expect us to take your arguments seriously?

    It's ridiculous to think that artists should dictate copyright law. It's like saying that an industry that receives a subsidy in order to create something that some politicians have deemed to be good for society should get to decide the size and form of that subsidy. Sure, one should of course let such an industry have its say, but it should be seen for what it is - a biased opinion from a major beneficiary of the system.

    The purpose of copyright is to give some benefits to society by restricting certain freedoms. The right people to judge whether it's worth it or not and the extent of those restrictions should of course be the citizens.

    Btw. this question isn't about caring about artists or not. It's about whether we should give up due process, create a systematic structure of economic risk that will hurt and stop many small businesses, send a message to foreign countries that using censorship tools is ok, make the internet infrastructure less secure and give intermediaries strong incentives to censor free speech.

     

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  11.  
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    Chronno S. Trigger (profile), Nov 16th, 2011 @ 5:42am

    Re: Re:

    Damn, he is good. He almost got me, he almost got you, and he did get Tor. I think he needs another +1 Internet.

     

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  12.  
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    btrussell (profile), Nov 16th, 2011 @ 5:47am

    Re: Re: Re:

    I only use aged. By the time I use it, most people would think it is just dirt. :)

     

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  13.  
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    Prisoner 210, Nov 16th, 2011 @ 5:51am

    Re: Re: Re:

    His trolling level.... it's over nine thousand!

    *Crunch*

     

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  14.  
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    btrussell (profile), Nov 16th, 2011 @ 5:53am

    If we put copywrong back to fourteen years, with one renewable term, the content industries would be able to police their own content.

    Benefits for all!

     

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  15.  
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    Prisoner 201, Nov 16th, 2011 @ 5:58am

    Re:

    How much money would they save if copyright was reduced to 0 years? I.e. nothing to police.

    What is the total costs of DRM development and management, legislation purchases, lobbying, anti-pircay propaganda, etc?

    Who knows, maybe they would even come out ahead :)

     

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  16. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
     
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 16th, 2011 @ 6:00am

    Think about the children! What will they watch if you can't pirate stuff?


    THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN!

     

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  17.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 16th, 2011 @ 6:18am

    SOPA read herring?

    I wonder if this SOPA bill is not a diversion maneuver...
    While everybody is concentrating on SOPA maybe there is some other nasty legislation is coming through?

     

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  18.  
    identicon
    IronM@sk, Nov 16th, 2011 @ 6:20am

    Re: Re: A logical solution

    That's because it was redundant.

     

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  19.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 16th, 2011 @ 6:33am

    Re:

    Hackers by definition are not criminals. They are simply people who like to disassemble technological things. Stupidity at it's best....

     

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  20.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 16th, 2011 @ 6:43am

    The United States is entering a new era of the dark ages lead by corporate controllers (MPAA, RIAA, etc..) How well did locking down physical property work for European kingdoms back in the day? It ended in an era of non-growth, persecution of opposing thoughts, and 200 years of no innovation or cultural development. It wasn't until the printing press that society was able to break free from this era and have a renaissance. What invention or event will shake us free now? Can Google save us?

     

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  21.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 16th, 2011 @ 7:02am

    Cue the black choppers

    I was actually wondering if OWS was the diversion.

     

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  22.  
    identicon
    anonymous, Nov 16th, 2011 @ 7:04am

    'Can defenders of the bill continue to pretend that it's just a small opposition now?'

    of course they can and they will. allopposition to SOPA is going to be ignored. not just because of the amount of 'encouragement' that has been thrown to politicians by the entertainment industries but because of the fact that most politicians are a bunch of gutless ass hats who dont have the courage to admit when they are wrong. succeeding with what Bill they try to introduce is far more important than anything else, even when it has been proven how wrong the Bill is and the damage it will do.
    something that i find very troubling is the fact that there have been numerous posts on the 'net about PROTECT IP and SOPA and the damage that either/both will do to countless companies as well as how itself infringes on various constitutional law, but those speaking out against it, in the main, have waited until almost the last minute. why is that?

     

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  23.  
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    zegota (profile), Nov 16th, 2011 @ 7:06am

    Re: Re:

    Um, hackers are *not necessarily* criminals, but they certainly can be.

     

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  24.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 16th, 2011 @ 7:25am

    I'm aiming this comment at AJ, Chrono S. Trigger, Tor and Anonymous Coward (comment 19). I'm the guy who posted the first comment, which I am somewhat sad to see was flagged (mostly because I was just playing around and trying to see if I could write a comment like a troll), but at the same time I'm glad to see it was flagged. It means I sounded just like a troll.

    Just a heads up guys, I am NOT a troll. I am with you in regards to my views on SOPA. I think it is atrocious and will be abused. It will NOT do anything positive at all (in regards to stopping piracy), only the most willfully blind/ignorant will believe otherwise. It is pretty much a slap in the face to all of us as U.S. citizens AND consumers/customers. It completely violates our rights all in the name of profits and outdated business models. This is just a tip of the iceberg, my views on it, but just wanted to make some of what I feel clear.

    Also (aiming this at Tor), I know "hackers" are not criminals. I am routinely called one myself because I like tinkering with computers, cell phones and any other electronic gadgets I can get my hands on. People say it to me in a very negative way because of misconceptions perpetuated by people who don't know anything.

    I promise guys, I will not post another "troll" type comment again. It seems I'm a bit too good at it. That scares me, but it's nice to see how easy it is to do. Throw out some of the usual phrases and words and wahlah, a troll comment.

    "You bunch of hypocrites. See what I mean? You rant on and on about censorship and free speech and what's the first thing you do? Censor my free speech and remove it from the site. Bunch of freetards hiding behind "free speech" just to justify your thievery." (Sorry guys, I couldn't help myself. That was the last trollish type comment, I promise. But notice how it's exactly something they'd say.)

     

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  25.  
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    sophisticatedjanedoe (profile), Nov 16th, 2011 @ 7:33am

    I tried to stay out of politics, being focused on a single goal, but this bill threatens my project.

     

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  26.  
    identicon
    Bengie, Nov 16th, 2011 @ 7:42am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Um, people are *not necessarily* criminals, but they certainly can be.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  27.  
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    The Groove Tiger (profile), Nov 16th, 2011 @ 7:42am

    Re: Re:

    Actually the original definition of "Hacker" was people who like to "hack things together", in a clever way, and without previous complex design. Basically cowboy programmers.

    BTW you've been faketrolled ;)

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  28.  
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    The eejit (profile), Nov 16th, 2011 @ 7:55am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    No, after SOPA people ARE criminals: they just don't know it yet.

     

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  29.  
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    The eejit (profile), Nov 16th, 2011 @ 7:57am

    AS an amusing aside, apparently my phone's American, as the American Censorship Day thing kept popping up. I have a script preventer on there, for security reasons.

     

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  30.  
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    btrussell (profile), Nov 16th, 2011 @ 8:12am

    Re: Re: Re:

    You are thinking of "Crackers" not "Hackers."

    You can blame big media for the confusion.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  31.  
    icon
    Berenerd (profile), Nov 16th, 2011 @ 8:32am

    Re:

    You might get the LOL award because people are realizing it was a fake troll :)

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  32.  
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    Marcel de Jong (profile), Nov 16th, 2011 @ 8:34am

    Re:

    Think about the trolls. If the RIAA and the MPAA go bankrupt, where else can they get money from, if they can't troll sites like Techdirt! THINK ABOUT THE TROLLS!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  33.  
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    davnel (profile), Nov 16th, 2011 @ 11:21pm

    Congress

    Let's face it. We have the best congress-critters money can buy. What we're seeing now is the buyers demanding value for their money. Few, if any, of the congresspersons have the guts to stand up to them, and lose all that beautiful cash.

    What really needs to happen is to prevent the purchase of senators and reps by eliminating all lobbying and corporate "political" contributions. Won't happen, of course, but it needs to.

    Remember, an "honest politician" is one who, when paid off, stays bought. You're seeing a lot of that now and I doubt they're sleeping well or at all at night. They certainly know that SOPA is a dangerous farce and will kill the internet as we know it. They just can't admit it publicly.

     

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  34.  
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    Jeffrey Nonken (profile), Nov 17th, 2011 @ 11:41am

    Re: Re:

    I believe you can hit the button again and un-troll him.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  35.  
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    Jeffrey Nonken (profile), Nov 17th, 2011 @ 12:09pm

    Re: A logical solution

    Indeed. I've pointed this out before: if your primary goal for your content not be infringed upon, all you have to do is never release it. A simple, cheap solution that will never, ever "lose" you money to illicit copying.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  36.  
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    Jeffrey Nonken (profile), Nov 17th, 2011 @ 12:12pm

    Re: Re:

    Lack of copyright won't stop DRM. In fact, many companies will react by increasing it. Of course they'll also continue to lobby for draconian punishments for bypassing the DRM.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  37.  
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    Jeffrey Nonken (profile), Nov 17th, 2011 @ 12:25pm

    Re:

    I'm proud -- even smug -- to say that I caught on quickly. The trolling was just a shade too good, and the closing tag capped it.

    Nevertheless, well done, sir. My hat is off to you (regardless of the avatar :). Even with the closing tag a number of people got trolled.

    P.S. It's spelled voila. (OK, technically it's voilà, but even I'm not that picky.) Sorry, I had to say something.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  38.  
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    Tor (profile), Nov 21st, 2011 @ 7:05am

    Re: Re:

    Never mind. I obviously read the comment too sloppily.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  39.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 18th, 2012 @ 3:47pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    hackers don't break into other peoples stuff. crackers do. learn your terms

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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