Attempts To Censor File Sharing Sites In The UK Demonstrate The Pointlessness Of SOPA's Blocks

from the won't-stop-infringement dept

As the UK has ramped up its own "Great Firewall" by requiring ISPs to block access to sites deemed infringing, we get a bit of a preview of what life in the US would be like under SOPA, which has provisions for similar censorship. And, thanks to submissions from Butcherer79, we quickly learn two things. First, for those who want to infringe, easy paths will be found to get around the blocks. In this case, new software is apparently out that routes around the block easily. Thus, there's no stopping of infringement, but this will stifle plenty of legitimate users.

Second, as soon as any blacklist is in place, the copyright holders will push for more. Witness the record labels immediately pushing for BT to block access to other sites, including the Pirate Bay, on their say so alone, rather than any court order. And here, again, we see the natural state of things for copyright maximalists. They'll never stop trying to expand what they control. If the law gives them an inch, they'll try to claim a mile.


Reader Comments (rss)

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  1.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 4:10am

    The sad(or funny) part in all of this, is that governments and the industry behind all of this are so incompetent and couldn't find their own asses if they needed to, that people will need to locate those asses first in order to hand it back to them.

     

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  2.  
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    Planespotter (profile), Nov 14th, 2011 @ 4:11am

    No idea what BTBroadband are attempting to use to filter out Newzbin2 but I can still access it on my BTBroadband line.

     

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  3.  
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    That Anonymous Coward (profile), Nov 14th, 2011 @ 4:15am

    With all of the time and money being spend looking at protecting Copyrights, why has no time been spent looking at copyrights themselves?

    For every little bit further they push these laws, they claim even more losses in response. One could make the argument that new laws are not the answer to the problem, and using public resources to protect the business model failings is a bad use of those resources.

    If you make a law to make the roads safer, and instead the people injured jumps in response to each law and clarification of the law, it would show a failure of the law to look at the real issues at play.

    Unless the Governments of the world are ready to ban the internet as a whole and force us back to the telegraph, no law they pass will deal with these "problems".

    It becomes clear with the actions of the Copyright holders, pay raises - paying billions for inventory in a shrinking market - ignoring evidence of anything reducing piracy, and trying to force it out of business - that they have no interest in looking at any real solutions beyond make a law so its the 1950's again and we can make more money.

    Time moves forward, and every technological innovation has been declared the death of an industry, until the industry adapts to it and then leverages it to make even more money than before. It is time we stop letting them buy the law they want, and force them to compete in the market like everyone else.

     

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  4.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 4:16am

    Who will be the next Dwolla but for global transactions?

    https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Dwolla
    http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-11-11/t ech/30381380_1_credit-card-interchange-fees-paypal

    I see all those laws as a wish for people to not do business with American companies ever.

    Obama was just babling about how Asia today is responsible for more than half the total GDP of the world and how he wants those markets to buy "made in USA", problem is, Americans are so anal that no one wants to do business with them if they can avoid it, also why buy second class products when they can produce that same crap for less with better quality on their own?

     

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  5.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 4:21am

    Re:

    same here with sky broadband. oops.

     

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  6.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 4:27am

    The beauty of the internet is that is made up of layers.
    The idiots in the government and on the industry just can't see it, but others understand it perfectly. You can't fight something that can spawn a new layer instantaneously.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSI_model

    After layer 7 you can try to count how many layers people can put on top of that.

    Ad infinitum.

     

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  7.  
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    Spaceboy (profile), Nov 14th, 2011 @ 4:29am

    Re:

    They want you to ignore the man behind the curtain.

     

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  8.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 4:30am

    Re:

    It would be funny if you lived in a building and there was this central box managing all the traffic and it had the software installed to bypass this so you wouldn't need to worry about configuring anything because your transparent proxy already does that for the entire building.

     

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  9.  
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    That Anonymous Coward (profile), Nov 14th, 2011 @ 4:35am

    Re: Re:

    Only because that man has a suitcase full of cash he is handing to the officials.

     

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  10.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 4:43am

    Ask any plumber and they will say that dealing with water can be a pain. It gets everywhere, always flows out past were you though you clogged it up and quickly moves to the path of least resistance.

    Now if we consider the internet a series of tubes......

     

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  11. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
     
    identicon
    yoot, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 4:46am

    follow the real story

    fucking follow the real story cunt. go and get fucked you cunt

     

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  12.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 4:51am

    Re: follow the real story

    Angry. There are counselors to help with that.

     

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  13.  
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    Butcherer79 (profile), Nov 14th, 2011 @ 4:55am

    Re: follow the real story

    Obviously succinct, but unfortunately for me, I seem to have missed your point.

     

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  14.  
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    Bengie, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 4:56am

    Re:

    While your idea is correct, it's not in the amount of layers for OSI, as those are fairly static, but in that layer 7 application protocol. That can easily be changed.

     

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  15.  
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    The eejit (profile), Nov 14th, 2011 @ 5:02am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Or babies' hearts. The Wizard is a nasty, nasty man.

     

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  16.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 5:02am

    Now I eagerly await the news of BT being sanctioned for not stopping online piracy (or child pornography, or whatever it was) while the real criminals just slip away unharmed.

    Not because I hate BT or anything. I'm just trying to prove a point.

     

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  17.  
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    The eejit (profile), Nov 14th, 2011 @ 5:05am

    Re: follow the real story

    Congratulations! You have found such eloquence as has never before been seen here on Techdirt!

    ...or not.

     

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  18.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 5:06am

    Re:

    We've already deployed three different bypass methods, and have two more undergoing testing. We will of course not be allowing any organization, company or government to interfere with the free flow of information.

     

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  19.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 5:12am

    Re:

    Since I had 3 stents inserted in my heart I have a new appreciation for what plumbers do.

    Not this has anything whatsoever with anything being said here is just that plumbers do plumbplasty on the house and doctors do angioplasty on people, and I just marveled at how the same tools plumbers use to declog plumbing are so close to what doctors use except for the big honking ass CT Scan swirling around you all the time.

     

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  20.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 5:19am

    Re: Re:

    I hope the government catches up with you, and you get to enjoy a few years being Bubba's bitch (or whatever the UK version of Bubba is). That might remind you of why you should follow the law.

     

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  21.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 5:21am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Are you well acquainted with this Bubba character?

     

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  22.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 5:28am

    Re: Re: Re:

    And in the meantime, the real criminals (counterfeiters, child abusers, etc...) just slip away under the radar. But at least you'll get the satisfaction of stopping ONE guy that made (?) a tool which bypasses weak attempts at censorship.

    Fun!

     

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  23.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 5:28am

    One thing I have noticed is that studios are doing a lot of classical remakes and by the looks of Warner Bros did on the Hotfile website I will guess that studios are gearing up to censor everything and takedown every public domain piece they can find.

     

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  24.  
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    Anonymous Troll, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 5:31am

    Re: follow the real story

    4chan is that way -------------------->

     

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  25.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 5:32am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Here is an idea for you do what the South Africans are doing and create your own "shoot the pirates" campaign and go down to the streets if you have the balls and beat the pirates, but beware pirates beat the hell out of musicians in South Africa.

    torrentfreak.com/shoot-the-pirate-copyright-campaign-descends-into-real-violence-111112/

     

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  26.  
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    btrussell (profile), Nov 14th, 2011 @ 5:34am

    Re:

    You need to look at history for the answer to this.

    Think Roman Colosseum.

    You entertain the masses to distract.

     

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  27.  
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    btrussell (profile), Nov 14th, 2011 @ 5:38am

    Re: follow the real story

    You are what you eat, Dick

     

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  28.  
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    PaulT (profile), Nov 14th, 2011 @ 5:42am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Any evidence that he's breaking any law, other than your half-assed assumption that the only reason to bypass restrictions on free speech is to break one?

     

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  29.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 5:57am

    I agree that blocking by itself won't work. What's lacking in the UK is cutting off their cash flow. Here's a question for the apologists. Would you still oppose PROTECT IP if DNS blocking was from the bill? Seriously, my biggest problem with you guys is that you oppose everything and never offer alternatives beyond CwF + RtB, which ain't happening. So if not PROTECT IP measures, what?

     

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  30.  
    identicon
    ENOUGH, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 6:07am

    Dear Copyright Maximalists

    You've taken over my mind. You've raped my thoughts with your image viruses then sold me fake cures for your own disease. Your words and pictures scream orders at me like angry prison wardens. When I cover my ears, your voices echo in my head. I hate you. When I see your billboards, your talk shows, your rock concerts and your factories, when I see the work of your twisted libidos, I want to kill you. I want to set fires, plant bombs, derail trains. I want to smash your buildings and tear at your bodies until the skin of my hands is worn to the bone. I am filled with rage that burns my eyes.

    I don't want to feel this way. You have done this to me. These feelings are the fruits of your multi-billion dollar sowing. And I am not alone. There are others like me out here. Every suicide, every madman, every man or woman who gets a gun and just starts shooting - these are your illegitimate children. They don't all know what they are doing. All they know is hate for the invisible walls which you have raised around them, hate for the narrow path you have tried to make them walk. And the innocent pay in blood for you negligence.

    Remember this: My mind is big. The more you try to push me down and make me small, the greater the pressure inside me becomes. The greater the pressure, the greater the chance of an explosion. There was once a time when I felt love, but now I feel only hate and anger, and fear at what I might do. And you can tell me to "BE HAPPY," but I know that you really mean "BE QUIET".

    Believe me, I want to be happy. You stand in my way.

     

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  31.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 6:13am

    Re: Dear Copyright Maximalists

    Yes. Be quiet would be a good place for you to start.

     

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  32.  
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    PaulT (profile), Nov 14th, 2011 @ 6:25am

    Re:

    "What's lacking in the UK is cutting off their cash flow"

    How is the UK meant to achieve this for non-UK sites, often operating within the local law in their location?

    "Would you still oppose PROTECT IP if DNS blocking was from the bill?"

    Yes. I oppose any measures that involve restrictions or punishment without due process, based on mere accusations from a biased private party known to rely on inaccurate data.

    "you guys is that you oppose everything and never offer alternatives beyond CwF + RtB, which ain't happening"

    So, instead of offering suggestions that really just amount to saying "there's only a problem because the industry makes it a problem, and here's how to fix it", we should just roll over and give up rights and freedom of communication so that an outdated business model cam remain profitable?

    No, sorry.

     

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  33.  
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    Butcherer79 (profile), Nov 14th, 2011 @ 6:38am

    Re: Dear Copyright Maximalists

    Classic serial killer type letter to the authorities when one of two things have happened:
    1) Person(s) who wrote this feels invincible
    2) Person(s) who wrote this wants to be caught to stop them carrying out what they know is wrong.

    A nice example of method writing.

     

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  34.  
    identicon
    Boost, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 6:40am

    Re: Re: Dear Copyright Maximalists

    Yes, a long walk off a short pier would be a good place for you to start.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  35.  
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    Butcherer79 (profile), Nov 14th, 2011 @ 6:41am

    Re: Dear Copyright Maximalists

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  36.  
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    Butcherer79 (profile), Nov 14th, 2011 @ 6:43am

    Re: Re: Dear Copyright Maximalists

    and apparently here too:
    jfavettasocialpsychology.blogspot.com/2007/10/​hate.html

     

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  37.  
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    Butcherer79 (profile), Nov 14th, 2011 @ 7:00am

    Re: Re: Re: Dear Copyright Maximalists

     

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  38.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 7:17am

    Re: Re:

    This sort of intransigence is why there are bills like this. You set the stage for an all or nothing confrontation. Hope you enjoy your nothing.

     

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  39.  
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    Narcissus (profile), Nov 14th, 2011 @ 7:18am

    Re:

    Interesting point actually. Are the ISP unwittingly opening themselves up to massive liability by consenting to these schemes?

    Suppose they make some configuration mistake in their network that would allow people to still see censored content, would they then be liable for the massive penalties big copyright likes to extract?

    They did agree to censor in the first place, so not doing so might be breach of contract or something.

     

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  40.  
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    anonymous, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 7:18am

    the problems here are 'the special relationship' that is supposed to exist between the UK and the US, (Cameron cant bend over quick enough for Obama, but there is no reversal of role), plus, when things go to rat shit for the US because of the introduction of SOPA and the number of countries that wont want anything to do with the US, Obama can then say 'but it's not just us. the UK are doing the same and are just as bad. blame them them too'.

     

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  41.  
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    The Groove Tiger (profile), Nov 14th, 2011 @ 7:34am

    Re: follow the real story

    Gah, that nonsense comment really messed up the language center of my brain, I kept reading it as "fucking yellow the real story" .

     

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  42.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 7:35am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Hope you enjoy getting laughed at when you come back bitching here that your precious law did not stop piracy. Sucker, lol.

     

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  43.  
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    The Groove Tiger (profile), Nov 14th, 2011 @ 7:35am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Or our all.

     

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  44.  
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    Butcherer79 (profile), Nov 14th, 2011 @ 7:46am

    Re: Re:

    I think they agreed to go along with the court order.
    I also think they've said (initially) that they won't block anything without one (not that I think for one moment that that's an iron clad, set in stone, 'til death do us part promise).

    They've also probably got one of those 'take reasonable measures' chucked in before 'to stop your paying customers seeing the ----- site/domain'

     

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  45.  
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    Butcherer79 (profile), Nov 14th, 2011 @ 7:48am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Sorry, didn't complete the point - reasonable cannot be measured, so as long as they have something in place, they get away scot-free and the person who develops the work around gets the slap on the wrists.

     

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  46.  
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    abc gum, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 8:02am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "Hope you enjoy getting laughed at when you come back bitching here that your precious law did not stop piracy."

    Problem is, there will not be any "here" to come and bitch upon. Eventually, criticism will be declared illegal ala lèse majesté, and self censorship will rue the day. It would be a good idea for the "law makers" to solicit advice from knowledgeable resources other than those with financial interests, but (sadly) that is unlikely.

     

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  47.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 8:08am

    Re:

    They can't find their asses because their heads are too far up them.

     

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  48.  
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    abc gum, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 8:08am

    Re:

    I suggest stepping away from the microscope.

     

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  49.  
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    nasch (profile), Nov 14th, 2011 @ 8:28am

    Re:

    Seriously, my biggest problem with you guys is that you oppose everything and never offer alternatives beyond CwF + RtB, which ain't happening.

    Why not? I mean we can all see that so far it isn't happening, but why do you reject it so forcefully?

     

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  50.  
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    Marcel de Jong (profile), Nov 14th, 2011 @ 8:35am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Dear Copyright Maximalists

    everything is a remix, and everyone is a critic. Oops also not original. I'm violating at least two copyrighted materials there.

     

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  51.  
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    Marcel de Jong (profile), Nov 14th, 2011 @ 8:37am

    Re: Re: Re:

    You never speed, do you?
    Or cross the street while the light is red?
    Maybe Bubba should remind you why YOU should follow traffic law.

     

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  52.  
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    Marcel de Jong (profile), Nov 14th, 2011 @ 8:39am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    He can blame that one on the lion. He said he wanted a heart.
    What the witch wanted was plenty clear.
    But I am confused what the wardrobe wanted.

     

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  53.  
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    MrWilson, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 8:52am

    Re: Re: Re:

    I've said it before, but it bears repeating since you'll never acknowledge it:

    Something that is legal is not necessarily ethical. Something that is illegal is not necessarily unethical.

    Laws that are not written on behalf of the masses are not valid laws and do not have to be followed by the masses.

    If you violate democratic processes, corrupt or use the corruption of government officials to your own advantage, ignore due process, and censor free speech for your own profit, you don't deserve due process, free speech, or profit.

     

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  54.  
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    Karl (profile), Nov 14th, 2011 @ 9:00am

    Re:

    Here's a question for the apologists.

    Nobody here is an "apologist." Perhaps you should ask this on the Pirate Bay's forum, or something?

    But since I'm also opposed to SOPA ant PROTECT IP, I'll give you my opinion.

    I agree that blocking by itself won't work. What's lacking in the UK is cutting off their cash flow.

    What's lacking in the UK (or anywhere else) is any evidence that rights holders will make more money, even if they get every legal change on their wishlist.

    What's lacking is due process. None of these measures should be allowed prior to trial. In fact, measures like these traditionally have not been allowed even after a guilty verdict. Yet they will be granted on mere accusations.

    What's lacking is any benefit to the general public. Copyright's purpose is to serve the public, not copyright holders or publishers. Yet they're trying to pass these laws despite the fact that the general public is overwhelmingly against them.

    What's lacking is any concern about how this will affect industries that rely on the internet. Which, frankly, is nearly all of them. For example, under PROTECT IP and SOPA, Viacom would have blacklisted YouTube. Can you imagine how many billions of dollars that would have cost the economy? How many jobs would have been lost? Can you imagine how much money content creators themselves would have lost?

    Can you imagine the damage Righthaven would have done if these bills were law? How about the Church of Scientology?

    So if not PROTECT IP measures, what?

    If not PROTECT IP measures, then nothing.

    At least not legally speaking. Because widespread piracy is not a problem with the legal system. It is a business model problem, and can only be countered by better business models.

    As an example, take digital music. Digital music sales account for more income now than physical sales. What would happen if iTunes, Amazon, etc. did not exist? What would piracy look like then?

    Obviously, piracy would be astronomically higher than what it is now. It would have to be; because everyone who is a paying customer to iTunes, eMusic, Amazon, etc. would have no other place to turn to get music in a digital format.

    But would CD sales increase? Not really. Certainly not as much as digital sales have brought in. That's because the problem wasn't - and isn't - piracy per se; it was the fact that people want music in a digital format, and don't want CD's.

    So, what we need are more companies like iTunes. More like YouTube, Netflix, Spotify, eMusic, or Hulu. What we need are better business models.

    I don't care what those business models are. It could be CwF + RtB (which works, by the way), or it could be something else. But what we do not need are laws that negatively affect everyone in society, merely so you can "solve" a problem that is brought on solely by your own failure as a business.

     

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  55.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 9:04am

    Re:

    I for one am so sick of the Government that I have wished to see it fall for decades.Since the 70's with a few short exceptions this Country has slowly been sliding downwards to the dysfunctional screwed up and corrupt thing it is today.
    Suck My Dog's ass Wshington Creeps !

     

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  56.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 9:09am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Four children, two Sons of Adam and Daughters of Eve. Possibly a fawn horn.

     

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  57.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 9:17am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Or our all.

    Care to place a wager on that?

     

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  58.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 9:23am

    Re: Re:

    "Here's a question for the apologists."

    Nobody here is an "apologist." Perhaps you should ask this on the Pirate Bay's forum, or something?

    Please. I've never seen such a bunch of nauseating, self-serving excuse making freeloaders in my life.

    But since I'm also opposed to SOPA ant PROTECT IP, I'll give you my opinion.

    I agree that blocking by itself won't work. What's lacking in the UK is cutting off their cash flow.

    What's lacking in the UK (or anywhere else) is any evidence that rights holders will make more money, even if they get every legal change on their wish list.

    So what. Right now there are people without the rights who are making money on property that doesn't belong to them. That's reason enough. You can speculate all you like about increased legitimate sales increases. There's no way to prove what the increase might be. In the meantime criminals are profiting by selling copyrighted material that doesn't belong to them.

    What's lacking is due process. None of these measures should be allowed prior to trial. In fact, measures like these traditionally have not been allowed even after a guilty verdict. Yet they will be granted on mere accusations.

    What's lacking is any benefit to the general public. Copyright's purpose is to serve the public, not copyright holders or publishers. Yet they're trying to pass these laws despite the fact that the general public is overwhelmingly against them.

    Overwhelmingly? Funny, Congress doesn't seem aware of that. You have about 5 people total between the House and Senate who are prepared to vote against this. The overwhelming number of Americans could give a shit.

    What's lacking is any concern about how this will affect industries that rely on the internet. Which, frankly, is nearly all of them. For example, under PROTECT IP and SOPA, Viacom would have blacklisted YouTube. Can you imagine how many billions of dollars that would have cost the economy? How many jobs would have been lost? Can you imagine how much money content creators themselves would have lost?

    Can you imagine the damage Righthaven would have done if these bills were law? How about the Church of Scientology?

    So if not PROTECT IP measures, what?

    If not PROTECT IP measures, then nothing.

    At least not legally speaking. Because widespread piracy is not a problem with the legal system. It is a business model problem, and can only be countered by better business models.

    As an example, take digital music. Digital music sales account for more income now than physical sales. What would happen if iTunes, Amazon, etc. did not exist? What would piracy look like then?

    Obviously, piracy would be astronomically higher than what it is now. It would have to be; because everyone who is a paying customer to iTunes, eMusic, Amazon, etc. would have no other place to turn to get music in a digital format.

    But would CD sales increase? Not really. Certainly not as much as digital sales have brought in. That's because the problem wasn't - and isn't - piracy per se; it was the fact that people want music in a digital format, and don't want CD's.

    So, what we need are more companies like iTunes. More like YouTube, Netflix, Spotify, eMusic, or Hulu. What we need are better business models.

    I don't care what those business models are. It could be CwF + RtB (which works, by the way), or it could be something else. But what we do not need are laws that negatively affect everyone in society, merely so you can "solve" a problem that is brought on solely by your own failure as a business.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  59.  
    icon
    Richard (profile), Nov 14th, 2011 @ 10:42am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Attention to the administrators - this program seems to have crashed - it just posted more or less a repeat of the comment it was trying to oppose....

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  60.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 11:06am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Yes!! We all know who the real criminals are.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  61.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 3:29pm

    In the UK, getting round the blocks is as simple as visiting the site using https:// instead of http://

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  62.  
    icon
    hmm (profile), Nov 14th, 2011 @ 4:11pm

    Im waiting

    If they block sites based on the record labels they HAVE to block sites at the request of various anti-semitic hate filled groups such as the BNP, neo-nazis and a horde of other vile disgusting entities.

    Soon there won't BE an internet in the UK, because somewhere someone is offended at my little pony.....

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  63.  
    icon
    Butcherer79 (profile), Nov 15th, 2011 @ 12:57am

    Re: Im waiting

    "Soon there won't BE an internet in the UK, because somewhere someone is offended at my little pony....."

    Bloody right too, those My Little Pony doll's are obviously the work of devil worshiping, voodoo types who regularly sacrifice real ponies to their gods in an evil attempt to take over the world!
    They must be stopped!! Where's the petition for me to sign to get the sites (poorly) blocked so that, although nearly everyone can see it, we can say we've successfully banned the little critters!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  64.  
    icon
    The Groove Tiger (profile), Nov 15th, 2011 @ 9:41am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Care you to place a that on your wager?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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