Well, If Firefighters Support E-PARASITE Law… Then You Know It Must Make Sense

from the who-are-they-kidding? dept

Want to know just how desperate the folks at the MPAA are getting in their attempt to turn back the clock and outlaw all sorts of innovation? They’re reaching the absolute bottom of the barrel, touting the fact that firefighers have come out in favor of PROTECT IP/E-PARASITE. What the hell do firefighters have to do with understanding detailed concepts like free speech, censorship, prior restraint, third party internet liability, and related topics? If you said absolutely, positively, nothing at all, you’d be correct. So, why are firefighters suddenly in favor of the censorship of the internet in America? It’s not hard to guess, given how DC lobbying works these days:

“You go down the Latino people, the deaf people, the farmers, and choose them…. You say, ‘I can’t use this one–I already used them last time…’ We had their letterhead. We’d just write the letter. We’d fax it to them and tell them, ‘You’re in favor of this.'”

Yup. What are the chances that the International Association of Fire Fighters has received large checks from those associated with the movie business? But, more seriously, who does the MPAA actually think it’s fooling? Is Congress so stupid that it can’t figure out for itself that firefighters have no clue what this debate is about? Otherwise, why would they be supporting censorship in America? Read the letter below, and wager a guess how much was actually written by a firefighter, rather than a lobbyist for Hollywood?

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Comments on “Well, If Firefighters Support E-PARASITE Law… Then You Know It Must Make Sense”

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173 Comments
ltlw0lf (profile) says:

Re: Re: Faith in Congress

Congress is probably unaware that there’s a debate, never mind what it’s about.

Hi Mr Senator…I am a lobbyist, calling about this upcoming bill that we want you to vote yes on. There is no debate, as Mr. Benjamin and his twenty brothers we sent you will attest to. If you find out that your constituents don’t like it, we can send over a briefcase containing 600 Benjamins to help you with your decision. Thanks, have a nice day. Take the Benjamins we sent out for a night of hookers and blow on us and relax a little.

Anonymous Coward says:

Arrogant Blockheads

While it clearly suits your purposes to suggest that these bills are only about pirating music and film, that’s but a (small) portion of what will be impacted. Ever hear that smoke and carbon monoxide detectors and other consumer electronics are being counterfeited? Complete down to the fake UL seal? You think firefighters might have an interest in making sure crap like that gets removed from the homes they protect?

Your pathological focus on the film and music industry is telling. There’s no lie, no exaggeration, no accusation that you won’t make in your desperation to stop the tightening of the screws on counterfeiters, infringers and those who illegally exploit the internet for their own gain at the expense of others. This is why you are laughed at Masnick. Sitting at a computer in California with your tinfoil hat cranking out unbelievable FUD based on some paranoid conspiracy theory. There are medications that can help you. Please look in to it.

MrWilson says:

Re: Arrogant Blockheads

“This is why you are laughed at Masnick.”

Welcome to the internet. Everyone is being laughed at by someone else here. Right now, we’re laughing at you and the absurd things you spout. I’m pretty sure Mike isn’t concerned about you laughing at him.

Also, you seem to be projecting. You seem to have a pathological focus on Mike and there doesn’t seem to be a lie, exaggeration, or accusation that you won’t make in your desperation to discredit him.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Arrogant Blockheads

“This is why you are laughed at Masnick.”

Welcome to the internet. Everyone is being laughed at by someone else here. Right now, we’re laughing at you and the absurd things you spout. I’m pretty sure Mike isn’t concerned about you laughing at him.

Also, you seem to be projecting. You seem to have a pathological focus on Mike and there doesn’t seem to be a lie, exaggeration, or accusation that you won’t make in your desperation to discredit him.

Way to avoid the issue. Masnick ridicules the position of the firefighters who have a vested interest in getting phony smoke and carbon monoxide detectors off the market along with bogus, unsafe consumer electronics. And in his fulminations accuses an honorable group of people of being a bunch of stooges. That’s bullshit, he know it but continue on in his fantastic delusion about the MPAA “shadow government” controlling everyone and everything. It’s kind of creepy how detached from reality he’s become and totally lost he is in his delusions.

JMT says:

Re: Re: Re: Arrogant Blockheads

“Masnick ridicules the position of the firefighters who have a vested interest in getting phony smoke and carbon monoxide detectors off the market along with bogus, unsafe consumer electronics.”

Do you or the IAFF have any actual evidence of “phoney smoke and carbon monoxide detectors” and “unsafe consumer electronics” being problems of a magnitude that require these new laws? Or is this just a faith-based issue?

Also note that there are undoubtedly both legitimate consumer electronics that are unsafe and counterfeit consumer electronics that are perfectly safe. The bills’ targets are supposed to be counterfeit products, not unsafe ones.

“And in his fulminations accuses an honorable group of people of being a bunch of stooges.”

I read it as an accusation against the IAFF, not fire fighters in general, as any sensible person should. And yes, they certainly do come across and bought-and-paid-for stooges, because the connection between the fire fighting profession and the proposed bills seems very weak.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Arrogant Blockheads

“Masnick ridicules the position of the firefighters who have a vested interest in getting phony smoke and carbon monoxide detectors off the market along with bogus, unsafe consumer electronics.”

Do you or the IAFF have any actual evidence of “phoney smoke and carbon monoxide detectors” and “unsafe consumer electronics” being problems of a magnitude that require these new laws? Or is this just a faith-based issue?

How about 18,500 smoke detectors distributed to low income families in Atlanta by the AFD? Honestly, you should Google your own questions.

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml11/11232.html

Also note that there are undoubtedly both legitimate consumer electronics that are unsafe and counterfeit consumer electronics that are perfectly safe. The bills’ targets are supposed to be counterfeit products, not unsafe ones.

Consumer electronics are required (I believe) to meet UL standards in this country. That is the gold standard for safety. Rest assured that counterfeit electronics are not so certified. While some may be safe, others certainly are not.

“And in his fulminations accuses an honorable group of people of being a bunch of stooges.”

I read it as an accusation against the IAFF, not fire fighters in general, as any sensible person should. And yes, they certainly do come across and bought-and-paid-for stooges, because the connection between the fire fighting profession and the proposed bills seems very weak.

Then you too are in denial like Masnick. The fact that you refuse to see the vested interest that firefighters have in eliminating faulty electronics and defective smoke detectors is simply breathtaking. It also speaks volumes to the utter desperation of the opponents to this bill. The only good news here is that Masnicks unwarranted assault and the echo chamber that supports it will end up on the desks of every undecided legislator as an illustration of how extremist and unreasonable the opponents to this bill are.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Arrogant Blockheads

“Masnick ridicules the position of the firefighters who have a vested interest in getting phony smoke and carbon monoxide detectors off the market along with bogus, unsafe consumer electronics.”

Do you or the IAFF have any actual evidence of “phoney smoke and carbon monoxide detectors” and “unsafe consumer electronics” being problems of a magnitude that require these new laws? Or is this just a faith-based issue?

How about 18,500 smoke detectors distributed to low income families in Atlanta by the AFD? Honestly, you should Google your own questions.

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml11/11232.html

Also note that there are undoubtedly both legitimate consumer electronics that are unsafe and counterfeit consumer electronics that are perfectly safe. The bills’ targets are supposed to be counterfeit products, not unsafe ones.

Consumer electronics are required (I believe) to meet UL standards in this country. That is the gold standard for safety. Rest assured that counterfeit electronics are not so certified. While some may be safe, others certainly are not.

“And in his fulminations accuses an honorable group of people of being a bunch of stooges.”

I read it as an accusation against the IAFF, not fire fighters in general, as any sensible person should. And yes, they certainly do come across and bought-and-paid-for stooges, because the connection between the fire fighting profession and the proposed bills seems very weak.

Then you too are in denial like Masnick. The fact that you refuse to see the vested interest that firefighters have in eliminating faulty electronics and defective smoke detectors is simply breathtaking. It also speaks volumes to the utter desperation of the opponents to this bill. The only good news here is that Masnicks unwarranted assault and the echo chamber that supports it will end up on the desks of every undecided legislator as an illustration of how extremist and unreasonable the opponents to this bill are.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Arrogant Blockheads

Not surprisingly, my earlier comment was “held for moderation” by Masnick’s censors. In part, it included a link to this:

CPSC Alert: Counterfeit Smoke Alarms Distributed in Atlanta

WASHINGTON, D.C. – The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) is urging consumers in the Atlanta area to check their homes for counterfeit smoke alarms. About 18,500 counterfeit photoelectric smoke alarms were distributed for free in the Atlanta area between 2006 through May 2011 as part of the Atlanta Smoke Alarm Program. The smoke alarms can fail to alert consumers in the event of a fire.

The Atlanta Fire Rescue Department, which distributed the free smoke alarms as part of a fire safety campaign, is recalling the smoke alarms and is working to provide free smoke alarm inspections and replacement units. Consumers who received these alarms should immediately contact the Atlanta Smoke Alarm Recall Hotline at (404) 546-2733.

The counterfeit alarms can be identified by a silver Underwriters Laboratories’ UL label on the back and three sets of vented slots on the front. The UL label is counterfeit. The alarms do not have a model number or brand name printed on them. “Important: Refer to Manual for Operating Instruction and Safety” and “Do Not Paint” are stamped into the plastic on the front of the alarm in both English and German. The package states, “This Smoke Alarm save [sic] life and property by early warning!” Claims that smoke alarms can “save property” are not typical claims for smoke alarms. The packaging states, “10 YEAR LIFE LITHIUM BATTERY,” but the battery included with the smoke alarm is a carbon zinc, industrial, heavy duty battery, which will power the alarm for only one year.

CPSC’s independent testing of the smoke alarms determined that the alarms pose a life safety hazard to the occupants in the event of a fire. The alarms perform poorly and inconsistently and do not meet voluntary standards requirements in Underwriters Laboratories’ (UL) 217, Single and Multiple Station Smoke Alarms and the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) 72, Fire Alarm and Signaling Code. The smoke alarms’ sensitivity settings varied greatly between the alarms tested. Some alarms did not respond within an adequate time for life safety and other alarms did not respond at all.

CPSC has worked with the voluntary standards organizations to improve smoke alarm performance and reliability. Counterfeit alarms can put lives at risk. Working smoke alarms that meet the voluntary standards are proven to save lives. CPSC urges consumers to install smoke alarms on every level of the home, outside sleeping areas and inside bedrooms. Replace batteries at least once every year and test the alarms once a month.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Arrogant Blockheads

None of this stuff matters to Masnick at this point.

If there is any effort to curtail piracy, that’s all that matters. In his world, any enforcement attempts must be stopped.

And yes, as has been rather obvious this week, he has gone off the deep end. Piracy is integral to his personal life and business model.

Tough for him.

surfer (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Arrogant Blockheads

you really are pathological in your view of reality. I have been profiling people online for many years, and every AC posting on techdirt can all be traced back to you. You are obviously working to promote the bullshit agenda of the MAFIAA. you know, contrary to your own self idealistic worth, there ARE people in the world that see reality, and are actually smarter than you. you are obviously paid to discount, discredit, defame, detract, obfuscate and/or derail any discussion designed to detail the definitive non delusional detailed reality that is the world. you like the onomatopoetic use of the letter d?

if you must puke your propaganda, please proceed to post somewhere that people actually pretending to placate your profuse pandering and possibly, JUST possibly, people placating your pretentiousness, perhaps might post.

further more, for fuck’s sake, fuck the fuck off.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Arrogant Blockheads

you really are pathological in your view of reality. I have been profiling people online for many years, and every AC posting on techdirt can all be traced back to you. You are obviously working to promote the bullshit agenda of the MAFIAA. you know, contrary to your own self idealistic worth, there ARE people in the world that see reality, and are actually smarter than you. you are obviously paid to discount, discredit, defame, detract, obfuscate and/or derail any discussion designed to detail the definitive non delusional detailed reality that is the world. you like the onomatopoetic use of the letter d?

if you must puke your propaganda, please proceed to post somewhere that people actually pretending to placate your profuse pandering and possibly, JUST possibly, people placating your pretentiousness, perhaps might post.

further more, for fuck’s sake, fuck the fuck off.

My somebody’s impressed with himself. Remind me to send you a box of hankies when the bill passes. You and your fellow apologists can all have a good cry together.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8 Arrogant Blockheads

Why, if he is not a pirate and still gets affected by that stupid law why would he not be worried about it?

You too should be worried, as a content owner you should be held responsible for what people related to you do it is your duty to watch everybody you do business with isn’t it?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8 Arrogant Blockheads

see, now this is your problem. He’s not a pirate, nor is this blog. I am however. And personally, me and all the other pirates don’t give a shit. We rarely comment here, and when we do it isn’t to post against any of your pathetic laws.
But yeah, you go on believing pirates actually give a shit what you and the mafiaa have to say. Meanwhile we’re laughing at you and you don’t even know it

out_of_the_blue says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Arrogant Blockheads

@surfer (profile), Nov 1st, 2011 @ 6:18pm

“I have been profiling people online for many years, and every AC posting on techdirt can all be traced back to you.”

EVERY AC, eh? — Master AC, the All Controller, whoever you are, PLEASE instruct your minions to stop appearing as if some support Mike. It’s just confusing me.

Jay (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 Jesus the Pirate.

No, Jesus was a felon. I can’t believe you didn’t know that. He singlehandedly killed the bread industry with his piracy.

He violated the Miracle Millennium Anti-Replication Act (MMAA) when he replicated wine at a wedding feast in Cana of Galilee.

Then the medical industry complained about how he practiced medicine without a license. But his healing rate was near 100%. Theirs was much lower without lime soap being invented.

And those pirates on the Red Sea were real pissed when he was walking on the water right next to him.

The morticians wanted his resurrection to be a criminal offense. They lost revenue when they couldn’t exhume the body.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8 Jesus the Pirate.

Just because you little mind is blocked it doesn’t mean it ignored the point.

Just didn’t only just share, he produced his own whenever he felt like it and shared that.

In a way every pirate out there do the same thing the multiply things and share it, and if they are criminals so is Jesus.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9 Jesus the Pirate.

Totally into the “born again” trip yer on tonite brah, and I wish you all the luck in the world with that believe me, hi-ever, you’re still ignoring that good ole JC still wouldn’t share something created by someone else without their permission first.

Keep trying tho!! This is fun!!!

Not an Electronic Rodent says:

Re: Re: Re:10 Jesus the Pirate.

you’re still ignoring that good ole JC still wouldn’t share something created by someone else without their permission first.

Well I’m not a bible expert but google serves. Here you go:

As evening approached, the disciples came to him and said, ?This is a remote place, and it?s already getting late. Send the crowds away, so they can go to the villages and buy themselves some food.? 16 Jesus replied, ?They do not need to go away. You give them something to eat.? 17 ?We have here only five loaves of bread and two fish,? they answered.

18 ?Bring them here to me,? he said. 19 And he directed the people to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to the people. 20 They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over.
21 The number of those who ate was about five thousand men, besides women and children

With reference to the text can you explain where Jesus asks for permission to copy and distribute what he is given in response to his demand? Or are you perhaps just making an assumption based on his PR?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6 Arrogant Blockheads

Further if you morons want to place liability onto others for what unrelated people did, maybe you guys should lead by example and make studios liable for what actors under their payroll do, you know if some actor say anti-semitic things the studio should pay, if some actor kills someone the studio should pay, if some singer, dancer or whatever kills someone the label should pay, if some book writer gets in trouble the publisher should pay, because they should be watching those people it is their problem if they didn’t know or were unable to do so isn’t it?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6 Arrogant Blockheads

How would Palenti feel about having to keep an eye on every rapper that is under a contract to them?

Will he be willing to take responsibility for the people he do business with? There is no law that allows others to let people commit crimes right?

So studios, labels and publishers should be held accountable for their crimes.

Josh in CharlotteNC (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Arrogant Blockheads

About 18,500 counterfeit photoelectric smoke alarms were distributed for free in the Atlanta area between 2006 through May 2011 as part of the Atlanta Smoke Alarm Program.

And this has exactly what to do with censoring internet websites?

http://www.huliq.com/10473/fbi-investigating-detectors-distributed-atlanta-smoke-alarm-program
“More than 18,000 of the apparently uncertified units were purchased in 2005 and 2006 from a company in California.”

http://news.consumerreports.org/home/2011/05/atlanta-recalls-counterfeit-smoke-alarms.html
“The problem dates back five years to when the Atlanta Fire Rescue Department bought the alarms from a vendor in Calabasas, California.”
“While the Atlanta firemen work to replace the alarms, the Federal Bureau of Investigation is looking into the vendor, Silver Sails Corp. The City of Atlanta is ?currently examining all available legal options? to recover the $100,000 spent on the counterfeit alarms, according to the fire department.”

http://www.made-in-china.com/traderoom/silversails
“We are an industrial supplier to local, state and federal agencies…”

http://www.atlantaga.gov/media/nr_afrdrecall_051211.aspx
“Purchase History:
Bids were submitted to AFRD, according to City of Atlanta Department of Procurement policies and procedures, with specifications for the detector purchase to include: new ionization type; Federal and State of Georgia Occupational Safety and Health Act compliancy; UL compliancy; continuous alarm duration; alarm sound level of 85 dB@ 10 feet; low battery indicator; hush button; test button; twist off mounting bracket; and long life 10 year lithium battery
Three bids were submitted from the following vendors: Englewood Electrical Supply (June 7, 2005), Silver Sails Inc. (June 7, 2005), and Cintas (July 8, 2005)
July 29, 2005- Silver Sails Inc. was awarded the procurement bid (8337-BA)”

You can’t even play the “sold on a rogue site” card on this one. A government program got duped into buying them and distributed to people.

Just FYI, it helps to follow up on web links and find out key details when you’re grasping as straws to try to support a completely untenable position. Just Googling “counterfeit + smoke detector + firefighter” and cut and pasting the first thing you see ends up making you look like an idiot.

Josh in CharlotteNC (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Arrogant Blockheads

I’m saying two things:

Your “shining example” of why firefighters are in support of this travesty of a bill is complete bullshit.

We learned from Viacom vs. Youtube, where Viacom had no idea of which uploads were legitimately authorized by their own employees, that not even a copyright holder can be sure if something on the internet is authorized or not. And now you actually pointed to a situation where a government agency that should have known better and had the resources to be able to tell a fake physical product took 5 years to realize a mistake was made and they had counterfeits. Yet these are the people you want in charge of preemptively blocking entire websites with no adversarial hearing.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6 Arrogant Blockheads

Yet these are the people you want in charge of preemptively blocking entire websites with no adversarial hearing.

Holy shit! The Atlanta Fire and Rescue Department will be in charge of blocking websites?

BTW, read the bill. A company automatically gets an adversarial hearing simply by filing a counter-notice. Nice try though FUDboy.

Josh in CharlotteNC (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 Arrogant Blockheads

A company automatically gets an adversarial hearing simply by filing a counter-notice.

I have read it.

You have ignored a key word: preemptively. Two questions:

1) Yes or No: this bill requires an ISP to block a site within 5 days of receiving a notice?

2) Yes or No: the adversarial hearing must occur before the site is blocked?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7 Arrogant Blockheads

“The Atlanta Fire and Rescue Department will be in charge of blocking websites?”

Stop taking people’s words out of context. He’s referring to government in general. How do you expect people to take you seriously when you can’t have a conversation without being willfully stupid.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8 Arrogant Blockheads

“The Atlanta Fire and Rescue Department will be in charge of blocking websites?”

Stop taking people’s words out of context. He’s referring to government in general. How do you expect people to take you seriously when you can’t have a conversation without being willfully stupid.

Who the fuck is being willfully stupid? It’s laughable to suggest that the AFRD has the same resources, sophistication and wherewithal as the Federal government.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9 Arrogant Blockheads

“It’s laughable to suggest that the AFRD has the same resources, sophistication and wherewithal as the Federal government.”

Like the federal government never makes careless mistakes. What is the federal government composed of, infallible gods? No, they’re composed of fallible individuals, just like any other government or corporation or group of people.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9 Arrogant Blockheads

You are being willfully stupid. He was referring to government in general and you twisted his words to mean that specific government. That’s willful stupidity, I don’t believe you’re that stupid. Now you’re twisting the argument into another argument that holds little water.

Adversarial hearings exist for good reason. Because governments would otherwise do things they shouldn’t be allowed to and would abuse the system if the system lacks safeguards against abuse. Governments are imperfect entities composed of imperfect people. While due process itself may not be perfect, because it’s also composed of imperfect people, at least it adds safeguards against allowing a single authoritative entity to make one-sided decisions at will without any sort of resistance to bad behavior. It allows another authoritative entity the opportunity to review and stop potentially bad behavior.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10 Arrogant Blockheads

Adversarial hearings exist for good reason. Because governments would otherwise do things they shouldn’t be allowed to and would abuse the system if the system lacks safeguards against abuse. Governments are imperfect entities composed of imperfect people. While due process itself may not be perfect, because it’s also composed of imperfect people, at least it adds safeguards against allowing a single authoritative entity to make one-sided decisions at will without any sort of resistance to bad behavior. It allows another authoritative entity the opportunity to review and stop potentially bad behavior.

If you want an adversarial hearing, file a counter-notice. The opportunity is there in black-and-white. The problem is that most of the accused don’t want a hearing because they know they’re guilty of infringement. And you desperately hanging on to the contention that a local fire department operates with the same level of sophistication as a federal agency is absurd.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11 Arrogant Blockheads

No, the problem is that the site is removed in the mean time and if the person turns out to be innocent then they got their site taken down for a period of time for no reason. People shouldn’t be punished until it is determined that they did something wrong, imposing an injunction on a potentially innocent site is punishing a potentially innocent victim. Not to mention, you assume that everyone is willing to fight an expensive lawsuit.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11 Arrogant Blockheads

“And you desperately hanging on to the contention that a local fire department operates with the same level of sophistication as a federal agency is absurd.”

No, the use of this story as an example of how this bill could help fix this is absurd. The contention that this bill would have caused the federal government (or the state government) to prevent this when it’s the state government that was operating everything is absurd. The contention that the federal government is somehow composed of people who are somehow far less likely to make mistakes because they are somehow more special than everyone else is absurd.

The error that was made here isn’t an error due to a lack of resources or manpower. It was a human error that the state government has far more than enough resources to catch if it weren’t for complete incompetence. To suggest that the federal government is somehow less likely to make such an error because it has more resources is silly. The state government has plenty of resources, if it can’t catch a silly little mistake like this one, then a lack of resources is likely not the reason why it wasn’t caught.

“The counterfeit alarms can be identified by a silver Underwriters Laboratories’ UL label on the back and three sets of vented slots on the front. The UL label is counterfeit. The alarms do not have a model number or brand name printed on them.”

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml11/11232.html

Again, this was a human error by an entity with relatively plenty of resources to catch it. It failed not due to a lack of resources, but due to a lack of competence. To say otherwise is absurd.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11 Arrogant Blockheads

“And you desperately hanging on to the contention that a local fire department operates with the same level of sophistication as a federal agency is absurd.”

No, the use of this story as an example of how this bill could help fix this is absurd. The contention that this bill would have caused the federal government (or the state government) to prevent this when it’s the state government that was operating everything is absurd. The contention that the federal government is somehow composed of people who are somehow far less likely to make mistakes because they are somehow more special than everyone else is absurd.

The error that was made here isn’t an error due to a lack of resources or manpower. It was a human error that the state government has far more than enough resources to catch if it weren’t for complete incompetence. To suggest that the federal government is somehow less likely to make such an error because it has more resources is silly. The state government has plenty of resources, if it can’t catch a silly little mistake like this one, then a lack of resources is likely not the reason why it wasn’t caught.

“The counterfeit alarms can be identified by a silver Underwriters Laboratories’ UL label on the back and three sets of vented slots on the front. The UL label is counterfeit. The alarms do not have a model number or brand name printed on them.”

http:// www. cpsc.gov /cpscpub/prerel/prhtml11/11232.html

Again, this was a human error by an entity with relatively plenty of resources to catch it. It failed not due to a lack of resources, but due to a lack of competence. To say otherwise is absurd.

out_of_the_blue says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Arrogant Blockheads

@ “Josh in CharlotteNC”: had /you/ actually read, you’d find that SOPA will supposedly prevent counterfeit smoke detectors from getting in. That’s a valid and highly important firefighter connection. Firefighters already got tricked into distributing phony ones, are no doubt hot on this.

Repeat: Preventing counterfeiting supposedly IN SOPA.

Josh in CharlotteNC (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Arrogant Blockheads

Repeat: Preventing counterfeiting supposedly IN SOPA.

Since you said “supposedly” I’m guessing you’re the one that hasn’t read the bill.

Please point out to me the text from the bill that supports your position. And explain how it would stop a US based company from importing cheap fire detectors from China, putting a counterfeit UL seal on them, then bidding on a government contract to supply them to a fire department.

out_of_the_blue says:

Re: Re: Re:6 Arrogant Blockheads

@Josh in CharlotteNC (profile), Nov 1st, 2011 @ 6:51pm

Repeat: Preventing counterfeiting supposedly IN SOPA.

Since you said “supposedly” I’m guessing you’re the one that hasn’t read the bill.

———————-

I wrote “supposedly” to be accurate. It’s a work in progress. Whether it will or not is irrelevant at this point: it’s perhaps only a hook to hang firefighter support on. Stopping counterfeit products appears not only plausible to me, but desirable. — Doesn’t mean I’m for SOPA, even.

Try to be fair with you guys, and you just want to assign homework.

My position is that Mike didn’t do his homework, just went off on an ad hom attack on firefighters. Annoys me, isn’t honest, isn’t weighty, and it appears a refuted take.

Josh in CharlotteNC (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 Arrogant Blockheads

My position is that Mike didn’t do his homework, just went off on an ad hom attack on firefighters.

So you go off on an ad hominem attack on me for pointing out an anonymous poster didn’t do his homework?

You accuse me of not reading the bill when you haven’t?

Here, I’ll do it for you:
http://judiciary.house.gov/hearings/pdf/112%20HR%203261.pdf
Start at page 60:
SEC. 202. TRAFFICKING IN INHERENTLY DANGEROUS GOODS OR SERVICES.
Section 2320 of title 18, United States Code, is amended as follows:
blahblah

That would seem to support your position…

However, go compare it to what Section 2320 already is:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/2320.html
“(a) Offense.?
(1) In general.? Whoever; [1] intentionally traffics or attempts to traffic in goods or services and knowingly uses a counterfeit mark on or in connection with such goods or services, or intentionally traffics or attempts to traffic in labels,”

You’ll see that in the case we’re talking about, whoever imported these fire detectors already broke the law, and SOPA would not have the slightest impact. It’s already illegal to traffic in goods with a counterfeit mark.

So do your homework. Support your position with facts, and cite your sources.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Arrogant Blockheads

So The Atlanta Fire Rescue Department distributes a bunch of free counterfeit smoke alarms and, all of a sudden, we need a new unrelated bill? No, what we need is competent government that knows how to obey and enforce laws and catch illegal activities.

We already have anti-counterfeit and anti-fraud laws. Do you honestly think E-Parasite would have likely prevented this? Adding more laws to make illegal behavior even more illegal does little to curtail illegal behavior. Someone illegally possessing a firearm isn’t going to avoid possessing one just because of a new law that says he’s breaking another law by possessing that firearm. He’s already broken several laws, adding a new law doesn’t stop criminals from breaking laws. What we need is competent government that enforces existing laws.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Arrogant Blockheads

and that’s the problem with government. They think new legislature is the solution to any problem. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Forget the hard work necessary to enforce existing laws and stop crime, simply passing a new bill adding new laws will magically solve all of our problems all by itself. Then no one would ever have to do anything to solve problems anymore, the new laws will solve those problems all by themselves with little additional input from law enforcement or anyone else. It’s like magic. and when it fails, the solution? EVEN MORE LAWS!!!

JMT says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Arrogant Blockheads

“Not surprisingly, my earlier comment was “held for moderation” by Masnick’s censors. In part, it included a link to this:

CPSC Alert: Counterfeit Smoke Alarms Distributed in Atlanta”

Sorry, I should’ve been clearer in my request, but I thought it was obvious I was asking for evidence of problems that this bill would fix. Were these 18,500 counterfeit smoke alarms bought from a website known to sell counterfeit goods? I certainly hope not. So thanks for a useless example that does not strengthen your argument one bit.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re: Arrogant Blockheads

Masnick ridicules the position of the firefighters who have a vested interest in getting phony smoke and carbon monoxide detectors off the market along with bogus, unsafe consumer electronics.

Oh my god!! 😀 This is f***ing hilarious!

You don’t *really* think there is even one single person on either side of this issue that actually believes that for a single second?

ROLFMAO!

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Arrogant Blockheads

“Masnick ridicules the position of the firefighters who have a vested interest in getting phony smoke and carbon monoxide detectors off the market along with bogus, unsafe consumer electronics.”

Oh my god!! 😀 This is f***ing hilarious!

You don’t *really* think there is even one single person on either side of this issue that actually believes that for a single second?

ROLFMAO!

Laugh it up Bozo. I’d guess the author of the letter believes it and more importantly, when a respected and politically active union like IAFF says it, politicians listen. Hope you’re still laughing when the bill passes. I know I will be.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Arrogant Blockheads

“Hope you’re still laughing when the bill passes. I know I will be.”

You bet. Cause when piracy continues unabated you’ll come back here with your usual whining.

You only need to look at what happened to Wikileaks after it lost access to US payment processors. A 95% drop in revenue. Add to that loss of advertising and delisting from search engines and you will see a significant impact on pirate sites. This bill is no magic bullet, but it will be a kick in the balls.

Another AC says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Arrogant Blockheads

“You only need to look at what happened to Wikileaks after it lost access to US payment processors. A 95% drop in revenue. Add to that loss of advertising and delisting from search engines and you will see a significant impact on pirate sites. This bill is no magic bullet, but it will be a kick in the balls.”

This bill is NO magic bullet. And it will be a kick in the balls alright. To pretty much the entire internet, freedom of speech, due process, etc.

But ignore all the damage it can cause (and more than likely will cause). Just so long as it annoys/stops a few people. Then it’s all okay.

There’s apparently a drug dealer on my street. The cops (sheriffs, state troopers, DEA, etc.) have gone by multiple times to raid this person’s home (who coincidentally never happens to be there at these times) and then leave when they realize that. By the reasoning and logic of this bill, it’d be okay to seize the homes of everyone on my street and lock them up for some time. Just so long as we get that one drug dealer. The collateral damage (seizure of innocent people’s homes and placing everyone in each home in prison) is acceptable and justified.

The phrase “better to let 100 guilty men go free than convict 1 innocent man” is not a phrase you’re familiar with is it?

The people defending this bill always seem to try and take a moral high ground, you’d think there moral “superiority” would make them realize the problems with this bill. And at least acknowledge them. Rather than ignore the facts and just focus on the one specific “positive” thing they do care about.

Mike Masnick (profile) says:

Re: Arrogant Blockheads

Ever hear that smoke and carbon monoxide detectors and other consumer electronics are being counterfeited? Complete down to the fake UL seal? You think firefighters might have an interest in making sure crap like that gets removed from the homes they protect?

If the law narrowly focused on that, they’d have a point. Instead, it doesn’t focus on that at all. Which is why they don’t.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Arrogant Blockheads

What, should they make a narrow law that identifies a single device, and set parameters for what is considered illegal for that device, and then try to enforce it?

Then they can sit down and pass a law for each and every item in your household, one item at a time, to assure that it is narrow enough to suit you.

There is a widespread problem Mike, so a wide ranging law is the most expedient and more conclusive way to address the issue. They can more narrowly focus on areas that need improving over time. This is a positive first step towards addressing the large scale issue of fake public safety equipment, and I can see exactly why the fire fighters support it. If you can’t see that, well… your blinders are on too tight.

Not an Electronic Rodent says:

Re: Arrogant Blockheads

Ever hear that smoke and carbon monoxide detectors and other consumer electronics are being counterfeited? Complete down to the fake UL seal? You think firefighters might have an interest in making sure crap like that gets removed from the homes they protect?

Not to pour fuel on the fire (see what I did there?) when you’re all trolled-up, but aren’t there already a number of laws against that kind of thing specifically? I’m pretty sure faking a standards seal is already illegal in the US, no? I hear trademark infringement is also considered naughty already. What is it that makes you think yet another law will work better this time?

The rest was just the usual bile-filled rant so I’ll ignore that bit. Probably should have ignored the lot but hey-ho.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Arrogant Blockheads

Not to pour fuel on the fire (see what I did there?) when you’re all trolled-up, but aren’t there already a number of laws against that kind of thing specifically? I’m pretty sure faking a standards seal is already illegal in the US, no? I hear trademark infringement is also considered naughty already. What is it that makes you think yet another law will work better this time?

Yes. But US laws are insufficient to stop foreign based websites offering counterfeit and/or infringing merchandise to the American public. Current US law can deal with violations in the US or websites registered in the US.

Sandman says:

Re: Re: Re: Arrogant Blockheads

So tell me why part of the SOPA is stated to target “US-oriented sites” and not specifically “foreign US-oriented” sites?

And what reason do we have for calling something which may be perfectly legal in other countries (e.g, Spain, with a long list of court cases to back it up) illegal and illicit in our country? Should we have the right to block legal discourse and content in another country from being available in our own? How is that not censorship and restriction on freedom of speech and expression? Tell me how that is not comparable to the Great Firewall of China.

Not an Electronic Rodent says:

Re: Re: Re: Arrogant Blockheads

Yes. But US laws are insufficient to stop foreign based websites offering counterfeit and/or infringing merchandise to the American public. Current US law can deal with violations in the US or websites registered in the US.

Short of the US invading every country on the planet and enforcing their idea of law with an iron hand in each one, I don’t see any law is going to stop that and even the British Empire wasn’t stupid enough to try that one despite owning about 1/3 of the planet. So again, what makes you think this law is suddenly the magic bullet? How exactly do you imagine this is going to affect websites that are by their very definition not subject to US law?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Well, except that I imagine firefighter union execs are actually voted in by the union members. Similar to other countries being mad at the US for the actions of it’s president. If the firefighters are actually offended by their execs bowing to lobbyists, then they should vote in other execs, no? I’m sure this will erupt in accusations about my being anti-firefighter. Nothing farther from the truth.

Anonymous Coward says:

Mike,

You should have linked to the actual article, and not the general MPAA blog: http://blog.mpaa.org/BlogOS/post/2011/10/31/Public-Safety-Community-Overwhelmingly-Supports-Rogue-Sites-Legislation.aspx

In the article, some of the firefighters’ concerns are highlighted. Pretending like you don’t know what their arguments are is just more stupidity and sliminess from you.

God, you’re an insufferable idiot.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

He probably meant to and it was a mistake on his part.

What you could do is politely correct him instead of making a huge deal out of a minor error. Then IP maximists complain that Mike makes a big deal out of nothing.

Though, judging from your use of the word ‘sliminess’ I sense possible sarcasm in your post.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Re:

Pretty much. Google’s money is behind most of these shenanigans; they’re vampires, there’s no doubt about it, and their ad business makes TONS off piracy via pirate sites, blogs, search traffic, etc.

They’re just greedy bastards looking out for their bottom line.

If they can’t make their money in an honest manner, fuck them.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Re:

So where is the list of pro-IP entities that allow comments and IP criticisms to continue? Certainly not the pro-IP government established mainstream media, they would never allow MM or IP critics to criticize IP on their government established media outlets. They know that their position is indefensible.

abc gum says:

Re: Re:

FTFL:
“National President for the FOP, Chuck Canterbury, exclaimed, ?The preparedness and safety of our members depend on sound, reliable equipment. Counterfeit batteries, gloves, brake pads, and other equipment put us and the public at risk. Counterfeit pharmaceuticals, tooth paste, and footwear put our seniors and our children at risk. Organized gangs use these profits from counterfeit DVDs to fund other criminal enterprises and fuel violent crime in our communities here at home.? “

Here’s an idea – don’t go to Walmart. Seriously, if one is spending tax dollars there is a responsibility to spend it wisely – this includes not purchasing crap that will end up costing more in the long run. Do your homework like everyone else and stop whining about it already.

Counterfeit DVDs funding terrorism is not even funny anymore, maybe you could find some new material for your standup routine.

bob (profile) says:

Supporting the artists is not censorship

Are you saying that firemen are stupid? That they can’t write or sing or dance or do any of the things protected by copyright? How about the firemen who write books like this one:

http://www.amazon.com/New-Firefighters-Cookbook-John-Sineno/dp/0684818590

I think all of these firemen and their buddies understand the value of hard work. And so they’re willing to support the creators.

Making it easy for people to steal a creator’s work is much more likely to censor an artist than preventing some lame cheap couchpotato from using bittorrent.

Keeping people from using bittorrent or the other tools is not censorship because these people aren’t expressing any opinions.

Anonymous Coward says:

I guess only people who agree with you are relevant

What the hell do firefighters have to do with understanding detailed concepts like free speech, censorship, prior restraint, third party internet liability, and related topics?

About as much as Justin Bieber? http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20111028/12580416553/justin-bieber-senator-klobuchar-should-be-locked-up-felony-streaming-bill.shtml

The eejit (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: I guess only people who agree with you are relevant

Here’s the difference: Bieber, as much as I dislike his music, actually works in the industry this is supposed to “protect”. Firefighter, for all their hard work and the risks that they take, most likely don’t.

If you cannot see how one is more relevant than the other, then perhaps you should take off those tinted glasses.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2 I guess only people who agree with you are relevant

The government definitely needs to stop telling firefighters to put out fires when someone’s house is burning down.

Fer sure. Free speech, prior restraint, due process, adversarial hearings; all that stuff needs to be addressed first.

Steve R. (profile) says:

First Responder Spectrum Allocation

There was a move afoot, were some lobbyists were able to get some clueless Congress people to allocate a portion of the radio spectrum for the benefit of First Responders. The premise was that our public servants in the fire/police/medics needed this spectrum for interoperability.

Well, someone put together a film clip of various first responders saying that if they did not receive this spectrum allocation that they couldn’t do their job and that children and old woman would die. Pure FUD.

Without going into a lot of detail, interoperability is a management problem, not a spectrum problem. What I suspect, no proof, was that this was being proposed by the communications industry to “force” public safety department to buy PROPRIETARY radio equipment.

Anonymous Coward says:

This is likely some sort of labor solidarity thing, not the IAFF being paid off by the MAFIAA. All major labor unions have likely been asked by the AFL-CIO or the movie industry unions to support PIPA/SOPA, and this is them doing so.

It’s unfortunate the movie industry has such a disproportionate share of organized labor (in comparison to other industries, like the consumer electronics/computer hardware/software/Internet industry which is almost completely unorganized) because that allows them to get blind solidarity from other unions who don’t know anything about the issues but will follow their brothers and sisters in a lock-step knee-jerk fashion to the end of the world.

Adrian Lopez says:

Firemen and Free Speech

Book paper catches fire and burns at 451 degrees Fahrenheit:

It was a special pleasure to burn. It was a special pleasure to see things eaten, to see things blackened and changed.

From Ray Bradbury’s Fahrenheit 451, describing the feelings of those men whose job it was to burn books: Firemen.

Machin Shin says:

Re: Firemen and Free Speech

I was wondering when someone would mention Fahrenheit 451. I mean how can anyone who read that book resist making a comment about this story.

Obviously the firemen are for this law! Then can’t wait for the day that it is their job to burn the offending books and other materials!

Seriously though, Dragging firefighters into this debate is kind of stupid. I can understand the argument that something needs to be done about fake safty products like smoke alarms. The problem is that this bill does so much damage and offers so little. Yes there will be some good that could come of this bill BUT the bad side effects are much much worse.

out_of_the_blue says:

One thing Ivy League Mike is consistently against: Labor.

“What the hell do firefighters have to do with understanding detailed concepts like free speech, censorship, prior restraint, third party internet liability, and related topics?”

First, questioning ability of firefighters at “understanding detailed concepts” clearly shows Mike’s abiding contempt for working people. I’ve pointed it out in the recent Huffington Post pieces. It’s a consistent trait. From doubting the “claims” of a barista at Starbucks, through jeering at Huffpost free bloggers for wanting to be paid after Huffington cashes in for $310M, to now sneering at one of our last bunches of respectable public servants.

Mike hammers his contempt, holding that firefighters are both stupid and corrupt:
“What are the chances that the International Association of Fire Fighters has received large checks from those associated with the movie business? …firefighters have no clue what this debate is about? Otherwise, why would they be supporting censorship in America? Read the letter below, and wager a guess how much was actually written by a firefighter, rather than a lobbyist for Hollywood?”

So, Mike, you try to peel off and dismiss firefighters, but a little actual information provided by AC about counterfeit smoke detectors fully explains a valid concern firefighters would have that’d bring them in. You’re just making a wild baseless ad hom attack.

abc gum says:

Bad product design can, and has, lead to malfunction resulting in severe consequences for the user(s) and innocent bystanders. This has nothing to do with the authenticity of the product or the status of any imaginary property rights. In fact, it is possible that a non authorized product could be of better design than the so called authentic version.

The rationalization attempt here simply does not hold water. Support of a draconian bill because it may stop counterfeit goods is one thing – but to imply that lives will be saved is deceitful. For example, there will be authentically inferior smoke detectors out there and they will malfunction. Passing some poor excuse for legislation will not stop this inevitability from occurring.

Why not just come out and state what you want done in your proposed legislation? You want complete control of all media including but not limited to the internet. That was easy huh. I agree that it will be a hard sell and usually there is a sugar coating, but what you are using contains no sugar and was obtained from the rear end of a bovine.

hmm (profile) says:

Ever noticed

How when any government tries to pass nasty vicious legislation designed to hurt the public and only enrich themselves and their friends (and screw the public we can get rich before the next election) there’s always a massive section of the public thats up for it?

Its weird, but there are vast numbers of people who WANT the government to hurt them just to give them something to moan about.

Teddy says:

Dangerous goods

Harold A. Schaitberger, General President stated [..] “…will stem the flow of dangerous counterfeit goods…”

While I can understand that the Firefighters’ spokesman would advocate curtailing the flow of shoddy counterfeit equipment, those are physical goods that should be limited by other government agencies (port authorities, tariffs on substandard parts and so on). If people are stupid enough to buy cheap goods simply because the price is low then they deserve what they get. It would be fine for the Firefighters to advocate the creation of a list of illicit vendors’ IP addresses and offer their block list to Adblock (and others). The key point is it being optional, not strong-armed such that it tramples freedom. We don’t need to be reminded that the US is becoming a fascist police state.

There is a HUGE difference between stemming the tide of knock-off goods sold as proper retail items and SHARING digital copies. The rhetoric that jobs or sales are lost due to sharing has yet to be proven with cold hard numbers that can be verified and scrutinized.

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