TSA Decides Terrorists Must Be Driving; Partners With Tenn. Law Enforcement To Randomly Search Vehicles

from the the-United-States:-now-with-more-acronyms-than-rights! dept

Pitabred sends in the distressing but completely unsurprising news that the TSA, with the cooperation of the Tennessee Department of Safety and Homeland Security, is now trolling for terrorists on the open highway.
The Tennessee Department of Safety and Homeland Security on Tuesday partnered with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security's Transportation Security Administration (TSA) and several other federal and state agencies for a safety enforcement and awareness operation on Tennessee's interstates and two metropolitan-area bus stations.
But this was no ordinary random search of vehicles. This one had its own acronym:
The agencies conducted a Visible Intermodal Prevention and Response (VIPR) operation at scale complexes where trucks and large vehicles are weighed. The VIPR operation was also conducted at two regional bus terminals in Nashville and Knoxville.
As awesomely G.I. Joe-ish as VIPR sounds, one would think that random searches of vehicles might run afoul of the Fourth Amendment. The word from above is: Don't worry about it. You're probably just thinking too much. Highway patrol Colonel Tracy Trott offers some much needed perspective:
The random inspections really aren't any more thorough [than?] normal, according to Tennessee Highway Patrol Colonel Tracy Trott who says paying attention to details can make a difference. Trott pointed out it was an Oklahoma state trooper who stopped Timothy McVeigh for not having a license plate after the Oklahoma City bombing in the early 1990s.
Question, the first: If these inspections aren't any more thorough than "normal," why the extra personnel and additional super-cool acronym?

Question, the second: An anecdote about catching someone after they've already performed an act of terrorism is hardly comforting.

Still not convinced that there's a whole lot of "nothing to see here" contained within this new operation? More empty statements are available to wave away your concerns:
Larry Godwin, deputy commissioner of TDSHS, said the checks at the weigh stations were about showing the people of Tennessee the government is serious about transportation safety, and to make sure the state is ready in case something were to happen.
I'm not going to speak for anybody else, but I find that the increased presence of law enforcement and various geared-up ancillaries rarely makes me feel "safer." Usually a swarm of drug/bomb sniffing dogs and SWAT-team members leads me to believe that either a.) something bad has happened or b.) something bad is going to happen. While I would agree that this sight would make me believe that the government is indeed "serious" about something, it does very little to convince me that it is "ready" for anything.

If you (like me) are still feeling a bit less than safe (and perhaps, more likely to be randomly searched), take heart! Your fellow citizens are being recruited to turn you in, should you happen to do something perceived as "suspicious," most likely at a high rate of speed.
Agents are recruiting truck drivers, like Rudy Gonzales, into the First Observer Highway Security Program to say something if they see something.

"Not only truck drivers, but cars, everybody should be aware of what's going on, on the road," said Gonzales.
It's all meant to urge every driver to call authorities if they see something suspicious.


"Somebody sees something somewhere and we want them to be responsible citizens, report that and let us work it through our processes to abet the concern that they had when they saw something suspicious," said Paul Armes, TSA Federal Security Director for Nashville International Airport.
While I'm fairly sure that's either a misquote or just a miswording by Armes, the idea that the TSA might "abet" (aid, encourage, incite, foster, promote) concerns seems very plausible. After all, without the vague threat of terrorist activity, where would they be? (Look under your vehicle.)

Let's briefly review the Fourth Amendment and see how this new effort checks down:
The Fourth Amendment... guards against unreasonable searches and seizures, along with requiring any warrant to be judicially sanctioned and supported by probable cause.
Reasonable search? Probable cause?
Tuesday's statewide "VIPR" operation isn't in response to any particular threat, according to officials.
Ah. Well, with the TSA moving onto the highway (having already made its presence known in bus stations and subways), it's presumably only a matter of time before it decides that terrorists have been chased out of the skies and off the road by its efforts, and at that point, there's really only one place left to look for potential troublemakers.


Reader Comments (rss)

(Flattened / Threaded)

  1.  
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    Mike C. (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 8:05am

    Two comments...

    1) Papiere Bitte!

    2) I wonder if they have ever stopped to think about what the increased security has done. Rather than keeping a minimal profile which would encourage the bad actors to be lax in their discretion, they've ramped it up to 11 which naturally teaches people wishing to do harm to be more careful and thus much harder to detect.

    Oh what am I saying... there's not a chance that #2 has even come close to forming a spark of a thought much less a full blown idea.

     

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  2.  
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    Al Chambers, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 8:11am

    I can't wait to get strip searched before going into Walmart.

     

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  3.  
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    E. Zachary Knight (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 8:12am

    Purple Tiger Patrol

    I make it a point to run around at night screaming and banging pots together in order to chase away purple tigers. It works too. I have never been attacked by one.

     

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  4.  
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    WysiWyg (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 8:16am

    Poor truckers.

    I think the truckers got it worst - their "name" would be FOHSP. Why couldn't they have gotten something along the lines of VIPR?

     

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  5.  
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    hothmonster, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 8:18am

    "it's presumably only a matter of time before it decides that terrorists have been chased out of the skies and off the road by its efforts, and at that point, there's really only one place left to look for potential troublemakers."

    Behind the rabbit? In the sewers? The Batcave? Under the bed? In the closet? Tunneling like mole people? in the oven, rotating slowly. Their body temperature rising to over 400 degrees -- literally stewing in their own juices?

     

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  6.  
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    Spaceman Spiff (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 8:23am

    Only other place...

    In our bedrooms? On the sidewalks? Sounds like the old "busted for being Black and walking about"... :-(

     

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  7.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 8:25am

    TSA: Proudly helping the terrorists win since 2001.

     

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  8.  
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    Chris Rhodes (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 8:26am

    The Progression

    "Well, if you don't like it, don't fly!"
    "Well, if you don't like it, don't take the train!"
    "Well, if you don't like it, don't ride the bus!"
    "Well, if you don't like it, don't drive your car!"

    Next up:

    "Well, if you don't like it, don't walk in public!"

     

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  9.  
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    non-anonymous coward (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 8:32am

    Re: The Progression

    I swear I made nearly this identical post just a month ago, when TSA started at Bus stops.

    At this rate "don't walk in public" will be added by the end of the year.

     

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  10.  
    identicon
    hothmonster, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 8:34am

    Re: Re: The Progression

    It would be easier if they just outlawed clothes.

     

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  11.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 8:36am

    What part of "transportation" are you missing?

     

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  12.  
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    gorehound (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 8:37am

    Frakken Washington is a Cancer...................Malignant and Putrid.
    This is very disturbing news.We really need to get these asse4s out of our lives.
    DISGUSTING !!!

     

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  13.  
    identicon
    John Doe, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 8:42am

    We gave up our 4th amendment rights long ago

    The license checks in the name of catching drunk drivers was the beginning of the end of the 4th amendment. Then the drug war, now the war on terror. I wonder what war is next, the war on citizens?

     

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  14.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 8:43am

    [quote]Trott pointed out it was an Oklahoma state trooper who stopped Timothy McVeigh for not having a license plate after the Oklahoma City bombing in the early 1990s.
    [/quote]

    Stopping a guy with probably cause for breaking the law (for not having a license plate or tags) is significantly different than randomly stopping people. If this is the justification they give, they've obviously having a hard time justifying it.

    Also, what serious terrorist threat is there in Tenessee?

     

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  15.  
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    STJ, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 8:43am

    "terrorists have been chased out of the skies"

    With people still bringing knives, bullets, guns, saw blades onto planes, I'm sure that terrorists are running for grayhound now.


    On a separate note, how long until TSA starts randomly inspecting homes and offices?

     

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  16.  
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    Chosen Reject (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 8:45am

    Scoreboard

    Let's take a look at the score board shall we? Specifically, who has stopped what terrorists. The US government has (at best) killed a few planners and funders of terrorist acts long after they had planned and funded successful terrorist attacks. Regular people have stopped the underwear bomber, the shoe bomber, and all 4 hijackers of United flight 93. Governments have spent billions, regular people have spent nothing.

    Now, you might say that's really lousy, but it gets worse. Osama Bin Laden was originally supported by the US. So at best, the government stopped a guy that they supported after he successfully attacked.

     

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  17.  
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    John Fenderson (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 8:45am

    Yet another in the lengthy list of reasons that I avoid the south.

     

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  18.  
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    AJ, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 8:46am

    How is this legal? They are not supposed to be able so search you without probably cause. What if you just tell them to get away from your car until they have a warrant?

     

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  19.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 8:48am

    The fourth amendment doesn't come into play when it comes to things like drunk driving stops or other actions similar by the police. The actions would only be unreasonable if they, example, targeted a racial group.

    You can look at Michigan v Sitz as the key ruling that allows drunk driving checkpoints. This is because while in theory this may violate the fourth amendment, the government's interest (stopping drunk driving) is stronger than what the SCOTUS considered a minor violation.

    Since it is clear that terrorism, illegal immigration, and drug smuggling are all significant government interests, it is likely that the same ruling would be applied to these sorts of stops as well.

     

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  20.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 8:50am

    Re: Re: The Progression

    you should sue for copyright infringement!!!

     

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  21.  
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    AJ, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 8:51am

    Re:

    This is not just a "stop" or "license check". These guys want to invade my property without a warrant, and without probable cause. This is not the same as a drunk driving stop or license/seat belt check.. not even close.

     

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  22.  
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    John Doe, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 8:53am

    Re:

    The fourth amendment doesn't come into play when it comes to things like drunk driving stops

    Uh, yes it does. Just because they ignore it doesn't mean it doesn't apply. It is because of sheeple like you that they get away with ignoring more and more of the constitution.

     

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  23.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 8:54am

    Can we get the TSA to patrol rivers and creeks and maybe some biking trails?

    on a more serious note...go read Bruce Schneier and his essays on the encouraging ordinary citizens to report 'suspicious' behavior and how well that works

     

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  24.  
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    John Doe, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 8:56am

    Re:

    I haven't read that essay but does it work out something like the Salem witch hunts?

     

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  25.  
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    non-anonymous coward (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 8:59am

    Re: Re: Re: The Progression

    I just meant that only a month ago, I thought I was making a joke in suggesting that the TSA would start searching cars.

    Yet here we are.

     

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  26.  
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    killscar (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 9:02am

    Missing the obvious

    Tennessee is home to the Oak Ridge Facility and with all the recent national security blunders I'm sure the government is aware of a potential situation that has put us all at risk. With that said, don't worry about it, Uncle Sam will handle it properly.

     

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  27.  
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    hothmonster, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 9:03am

    Re: We gave up our 4th amendment rights long ago

    "I wonder what war is next, the war on citizens?"

    Too obvious, more like The war on treason.

     

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  28.  
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    FarSide (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 9:06am

    Re:

    How it works:

    You: I don't consent to your search!
    Them: Only people who have something to hide say that! Now we have probable cause!

    Although in court they just say you were "acting suspicious"

     

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  29.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 9:06am

    Re: Poor truckers.

    You have to join the club to get the cool acronyms.

     

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  30.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 9:07am

    Welcome to the new world order.

    I thought The Crazies was supposed to be just a film.

     

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  31.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 9:08am

    Re:

    What part of "security" are they hitting?

     

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  32.  
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    FarSide (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 9:08am

    I see something suspicious...

    ...there's this group of guys with guns waving people down and going through their cars.

    Who can I report that to?

     

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  33.  
    icon
    :Lobo Santo (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 9:10am

    Re: The Progression

    If you don't like it, move to another country.

    ;-P

     

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  34.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 9:10am

    Re:

    If you have a bomb in a truck, you HAVE to go through Tennessee. *Everyone* knows that.

     

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  35.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 9:10am

    Re:

    I'm sure every single dictator used that line of reasoning to justify oppressing their own people.

     

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  36.  
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    aldestrawk (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 9:10am

    abate vs abet

    Maybe News Channel 5 corrected it, but the article says "abate the concern" rather than abet.

    I suspect that the "inspection" is similar to what happens at checkpoints set up to catch drunk drivers. In California, at least, those drunk driving checkpoints have to be set up so that a driver can see them and choose an alternate route, one that does not go through the checkpoint and does not cause a long detour. I take advantage of that rule, not that I ever drive drunk. I would like to know if VIPR checkpoints would also have to be avoidable in California, and other states with similar DUI checkpoint rules, as this would render the search for terrorists more than pointless (or is it less than pointless?).

    This is the second article referenced by Techdirt dealing with VIPR stops on highways. In both cases the source article does not give enough details to tell whether the cars are actually searched, people are actually searched, and if searches ever take place without the permission of the driver. The authorities are undoubtedly looking (hoping?) for probable cause to do such a search. This bothers me enough, but it is not the wholesale dumping of 4th amendment protections that actual random searches entails.

     

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  37.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 9:11am

    Re:

    At this rate? Probably just after the new year.

     

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  38.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 9:11am

    Re: Re: The Progression

    Oh? And how do you expect to get there?

     

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  39.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 9:12am

    "Nearly all children nowadays were horrible. What was worst of all was that by means of such organizations as the Spies they were systematically turned into ungovernable little savages, and yet this produced in them no tendency whatever to rebel against the discipline of the Party. On the contrary, they adored the Party and everything connected with it... All their ferocity was turned outwards, against the enemies of the State, against foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals. It was almost normal for people over thirty to be frightened of their own children."

    Just replace the references to children with the word "truckers".

     

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  40.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 9:14am

    it's Probable Cause i said so.

    Trucks have very large spaces where a bomb could be carried or hidden. I think that's sufficiently probable, don't you?

    Next on the list: car trunks, office building false floors, home attics, and body cavities.

     

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  41.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 9:16am

    Re: Re:

    It did in Germany.

     

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  42.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 9:20am

    Re:

    I'm pretty sure that reference is about 27 years out of date.

     

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  43.  
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    Chris Rhodes (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 9:23am

    Re: Re: The Progression

    The US government has made it exceedingly difficult to escape its reach.

     

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  44.  
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    Jeff Rowberg (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 9:25am

    Re:

    I'm not sure if having that done by a typical Walmart Greeter would be a step down or a step up from the TSA.

     

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  45.  
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    Lesath (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 9:25am

    I assume Tennessee volunteered for this? (Get it?) Otherwise, why wouldn't the DHS choose a more populous state. Seems like there would be more chances or incidents in a place like Atlanta or any other big metropolitan city.

     

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  46.  
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    Overcast (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 9:27am

    Good name for a device the snakes will be using.

     

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  47.  
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    JaDe, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 9:29am

    Re: Re:

    You realize 1984 wasn't actually written in 1984 don't you. But even if it was, it wouldn't matter. It is becoming more relevant by the day.

     

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  48.  
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    moronnorom (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 9:30am

    Re:

    If they start drug testing before you are allowed into Walmart our economy is screwed.

     

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  49.  
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    Jeff Rowberg (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 9:32am

    V for Vendetta

    I'm sure I can't be the only one who is reminded of that scene in V for Vendetta where the spy van is driving around, its passengers listening with adolescent glee to private conversations of people inside their homes, when they stumble upon the protagonist killing the corrupt priest. That level of privacy invasion seems to be exactly one small step away from where we are right now.

     

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  50.  
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    hothmonster, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 9:33am

    Re:

    "Also, what serious terrorist threat is there in Tenessee?"

    A lot of marijuana comes out of western Tenn., I don't know where there sting was taking place but that is the only thing I can imagine they could actually be targeting. Then again maybe Tenn. was the only state with a asswards enough state police troop to team up with these slimeballs

     

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  51.  
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    Chuck Norris' Enemy (deceased) (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 9:36am

    Driver recruits---report please

    Agents are recruiting truck drivers, like Rudy Gonzales, into the First Observer Highway Security Program to say something if they see something.

    So is Rudy gonna report all the glory holes in rest stop bathrooms...especially if they see something?

     

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  52.  
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    anonymous, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 9:49am

    only one place left for TSA to look for potential troublemakers is down the shit chute, i would think! they seem to be full of crap, after all.

     

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  53.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 9:52am

    Re: Re:

    There's also a lot of meth. I lived near Dayton TN for a little while and there were 2 distinct mountains. One produced shine and pot while the other produced meth.

     

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  54.  
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    Jim O (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 9:55am

    Parroting a comment I saw on techdirt....

    If you have "threat analysis" and "threat prevention" under the same organization then you have funding for both coming from the same place. All TSA has to do to argue for a bigger budget is to coerce their analysis team to dream up new threats, and now all of a sudden TSA is massively underfunded to combat theses new made up threats.

     

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  55.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 9:58am

    Terrorists live in houses, too!

    I just realized what a severe danger houses pose to the safety of all true Americans. Any house or apartment might be harboring a terrorist.

    The TSA must search all private homes immediately or they are not protecting America!! People in these houses already travel freely from room to room without being accountable for their movements and without even having to provide a reason for such movements. They could be doing anything!!

    Congress is to blame too. Searching of private homes on demand will require additional funding for the TSA. If Congress doesn't provide this, they aren't doing their job either!!!

     

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  56.  
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    Someantimalwareguy (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 10:01am

    Re: Scoreboard

    To be fair here, abdullamatab stopped himself through his own incompetence thankfully...

     

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  57.  
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    Anonymous Coward (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 10:09am

    Re: Re: Re: The Progression

    .... and body cavities, I mean that is where all those bombs, guns and knives are stored now that they have those naked body scanners. So, after clothes are not allowed, everybody will have to have their body cavities sown closed before they can leave the house and walk naked down the street.

    McCarthyism is dead, Long Live McCarthyism.........

     

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  58.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 10:12am

    *sigh* When you create your own terrorists, you know where they hang out. Guess now it's Tennesse.

     

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  59.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 10:15am

    Re: Terrorists live in houses, too!

    Y'know, it'd sure be nice if this was just sarcasm, but I'm pretty sure there's at least one state out there that already ditched the whole "you have to get a search warrant first" thing.

     

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  60.  
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    btr1701 (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 10:16am

    Re:

    > Stopping a guy with probably cause for
    > breaking the law

    There's no such thing as 'probably cause'. It's 'probable cause'.

     

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  61.  
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    btr1701 (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 10:18am

    Re:

    > They are not supposed to be able so search you
    > without probably cause.

    There's no such thing as 'probably cause'. It's 'probable cause'.

     

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  62.  
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    btr1701 (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 10:21am

    Re:

    > You can look at Michigan v Sitz as the key
    > ruling that allows drunk driving checkpoints.

    Checking someone's sobriety doesn't involve searching their person and their vehicle.

    This does.

    Big difference, both conceptually and legally.

     

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  63.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 10:22am

    When an infection occurs in a body, the cold and flu symptoms you experience are as much a result of the body's defenses going into overdrive as from the actual infection's waste products.

    Even with bin Laden dead and al Qaeda in shambles, their localized terrorist actions have resulted in triggering a massive defense reaction that is crippling America more than any specific damage they could ever have done, possibly bordering on a lupus condition.

     

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  64.  
    identicon
    Grey Ferret, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 10:22am

    Re: Purple Tiger Patrol

    I thank you for your efforts. I too have never been attacked by a purple tiger. Keep up the good work!

     

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  65.  
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    btr1701 (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 10:26am

    Re:

    > You can look at Michigan v Sitz as the key
    > ruling that allows drunk driving checkpoints.
    > Since it is clear that terrorism, illegal
    > immigration, and drug smuggling are all
    > significant government interests, it is likely
    > that the same ruling would be applied to these
    > sorts of stops as well.

    Look at the Genesee County Sheriff narcotics checkpoints in Michigan for an example of how this isn't as legally sound as you believe it is.

    http://www.freep.com/article/20111021/NEWS06/110210365/Drivers-face-drug-checkpoints-highways -near-Flint?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

    Some key points from the article:

    The practice has legal experts on searches and seizures at two law schools in Michigan, a constitutional law expert in Lansing and the American Civil Liberties Union calling the practice out of bounds and out of touch with state and U.S. Supreme Court rulings that ban such practices.

    Based on a case out of Indianapolis, the U.S. Supreme Court held in 2000 that narcotics checkpoints where everyone gets stopped on a public road are not legal and violate Fourth Amendment protections against illegal searches and seizures, professor David Moran at the University of Michigan Law School said.

    Wayne State University Law School professor Peter Henning said police can set up roadblocks to search all who pass by, but only if a crime has just been committed.

    And Genesee County Prosecutor David Leyton, who said he was not consulted by Pickell about the checkpoints, said that after a court challenge, the Michigan Supreme Court ruled in 1990 that so-called "sobriety check lanes," put in place to nab drunken drivers, were illegal.

    The new practice of narcotics checkpoints "certainly brings up probable-cause issues," Leyton said Thursday.

     

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  66.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 10:27am

    Re: Re:

    nit sufficiently picked

     

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  67.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 10:28am

    Re: Re:

    SCOTUS says otherwise. You can sit back down now.

     

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  68.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 10:29am

    Re: Re:

    Except you sort of miss: the checks are being done on transport vehicles already in inspection areas.

    Would you care to try again?

     

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  69.  
    identicon
    Grey Ferret, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 10:29am

    Re: Re:

    "Also, what serious terrorist threat is there in Tenessee?"

    Country music?

     

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  70.  
    identicon
    Kyle Z, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 10:33am

    I'm having a hard time understanding what type of suspicious activity I could possibly observe while driving on a highway. What kind of behavoir are we really expecting from terrorists in cars? If anything, wouldnt they be driving extra careful to avoid confrontation?

    This is about casting a wider net, plain and simple.

     

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  71.  
    identicon
    John Doe, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 10:36am

    Re: Re: Re:

    I will say it again, just because they (SCOTUS, WH, Congress, etc) ignore it doesn't mean it doesn't apply.

     

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  72.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 10:36am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Duh didn't you realize once someone reaches the SCOTUS they become uber human and no longer make mistakes?

     

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  73.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 10:40am

    Re: Re: Re:

    except in the case we're talking about above, not the OP, these are narcotics check points where they either check every vehicle in line if you listen to first hand reports, or they wait for someone to see the sign and pull a u turn and chase them down according to the cops, either way the legal experts say this would not hold up in court, either for 4th amendment issues or entrapment.

    Would you care to take another stab?

     

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  74.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 10:40am

    Re: Re:

    Thank you for your valuable contribution to this thread for pointing out an obvious typo. As a result, I feel much more enlightened.

     

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  75.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 10:46am

    Re: Re: Purple Tiger Patrol

    Banging pots may have worked before, but these purple tigers will stop at nothing to harm you because you are free. There is also intelligence that purple tigers are much more of a threat these days. Wouldn't you feel safer if you were provided with a live in TSA agent?

     

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  76.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 10:47am

    Wow, so a police state is looming ever greater. Neighbors reporting on neighbors, coming soon! Someplace I heard that at the height of the Soviet Union, 1/3 of the population was actively reporting on the other 2/3. Fun thought. People in America are still unbelievably petty and short sighted, so this should work out splendidly.

    Also, I totally can see people phoning in phony "suspicious" activity on the freeway, about people that maybe did something to make them rage. Like driving like a jackass. Sure, driving like a jackass is bad and I'd love to see that person get a fine, but that's not the appropriate way to handle it. The aggressive driver hotlines seem like a less bad solution than VIPR.

     

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  77.  
    icon
    Haywood (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 10:49am

    USA inc

    The united states of America (note lower case) was incorporated in 1868/71 by the Roman Catholic institute. The united states of America could not stay sovereign and trade with nations already within the Oleron Law system.
    This is why events were engineered to destroy the sovereignty of America and bring about the 14th Amendment making all State citizens now property of this corporation D.C. In truth D.C. controls no where on the mainland other than its small patch.

     

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  78.  
    icon
    Paul Pentz (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 10:58am

    Re:

    This is exactly THE point. With these kind of responses, the terrorists are winning, but the TSA just doesn't see it.

     

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  79.  
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    Dementia (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 11:01am

    Re: it's Probable Cause i said so.

    No, I don't.

     

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  80.  
    icon
    Dementia (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 11:02am

    Re: Re:

    You had to make the same point about typos twice?? Are you really that anal?

     

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  81.  
    icon
    CD (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 11:03am

    Re:

    Be careful how you word that.... Sounds to me like you just gave consent.

     

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  82.  
    icon
    Trails (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 11:08am

    Re: Re: it's Probable Cause i said so.

    Le sarcasme est allé au dessus de votre tête, monsieur.

     

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  83.  
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    matics (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 11:14am

    Damn, I would hate to be a visible minority living in Tennessee right now... Even more than I would hate living in Tennessee on any given day in general.

     

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  84.  
    icon
    d.w.a. (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 11:14am

    t.s.a.

    Fellers yall is hoopin @ howlin for nuttin. The answer is right under your nose. All we gots to due is find Lt. General N.B. Forrest. He is a Tennessee boy & Im sure he could handle them yankee T.S.A. folks. If old Bedford aint available then maybe Davey Crockett will help.

     

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  85.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 11:30am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    They can check every truck in line. The rules are applied evenly, and without bias based on race, creed, color, gender, origin, or other. The courts have held this doesn't blow the 4th amendment, especially when a valid government interest is at hand (namely drugs, illegal immigrants, terrors, or the smuggling thereof).

    In your example, the car that makes a U turn may be trying to avoid the checkpoint, which creates reasonable cause for a more intense search. It's a wonderful self-incrimination step that is a bonus in this sort of thing, and certainly NOT against the law.

     

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  86.  
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    bjupton (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 11:40am

    Re: Two comments...

    Hmm, pointing out holes in security operations. You are obviously a terrorist.

     

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  87.  
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    The eejit (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 12:14pm

    Re: Re:

    not just yours - everyone's in on the ride!

     

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  88.  
    identicon
    Jared, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 12:16pm

    I see wholesale hatred of the South is alive and well among some of you. Trust me, there are plenty of us who would love to be rid of the Feds altogether, not just the TSA thugs.

     

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  89.  
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    Jasen (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 12:16pm

    Things that make you go hmmm...

    So the terrorists now know to NOT drive through Tennessee. Good job TSA. What a brilliant plan!

    Somehow the TSA must have caught the story about Tennessee law officers stopping cars and seizing any cash they "suspect" is drug money. So perhaps since the law in Tennessee is already violating the 4th amendment and getting away with it, then it must be ok?

    The TSA has done nothing to PREVENT terrorist attacks. All the TSA has done is take away our Liberty. Now they are ignoring our 4th amendment.

    It's about time to abolish the TSA. We have an election coming up, please vote for someone that is committed to abolishing the TSA. Ron Paul said he would, are there other candidates?

     

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  90.  
    icon
    Brendan (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 12:29pm

    Re:

    +1 for Kent Brockman reference

     

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  91.  
    icon
    bjupton (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 12:31pm

    Re:

    I recently flew to Germany on Lufthansa. This is my first international flight, so I have no idea if this is SOP, but we were served a meal and it came with a metal fork, metal spoon and metal knife.

    Amazingly, we landed safely and without incident.

     

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  92.  
    icon
    btr1701 (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 12:32pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    > Thank you for your valuable contribution to this thread for pointing out an obvious typo

    A typo is just striking the wrong key. Funny how so many people seem to strike that same wrong key with that term, several just in this thread alone.

    In reality, there are plenty of people who wrongly think the term really is 'probably cause'.

     

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  93.  
    icon
    bjupton (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 12:34pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    and it is your job to correct them, right? make sure that you do it in such a way that you assume that the other person does think of it incorrectly and that they are a real dum dum.

     

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  94.  
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    btr1701 (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 12:35pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    > You had to make the same point about typos twice??

    When two different people 'accidentally' hit the wrong key on the keyboard (a key which isn't adjacent to the correct letter, incidentally), one can logically conclude that it isn't a typo, but rather someone who doesn't know any better.

    That being the case, why wouldn't you want someone to point out the accurate term if you were in that position? I know I would.

     

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  95.  
    identicon
    Dan Smith, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 12:37pm

    Re: Re: The Progression

    We have rights that are being trampled. It is against our constitutional ammendment (4th) to illegally search vehicles without probable cause. I have served my country and have lived in this country all my life. You sir can go to hell for even suggesting move.

    Seeing how their is no gain except to snoop on us, their is no probable cause - are you an illegal? :Lobo Santo?

     

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  96.  
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    btr1701 (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 12:38pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    > and it is your job to correct them, right

    Why on earth would you conclude that? Merely doing a thing hardly makes that thing one's job.

    Is it your job to post comments on this web site? I mean, you're doing it after all, so using your (dubious) logic, that would mean you believe it's your job to post comments here.

    If it is your job, please let me know where to apply. Seems like a good way to earn some extra money.

     

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  97.  
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    bjupton (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 12:40pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Whoosh!

     

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  98.  
    icon
    btr1701 (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 12:43pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    > Would you care to try again?

    You clearly said in your original post that drunk-driving cjeckpoints are legal in Michigan, which seems to fly in the face of the prosecutor's comment that "the Michigan Supreme Court ruled in 1990 that 'sobriety check lanes,' put in place to nab drunken drivers, were illegal."

    Would you care to try again?

     

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  99.  
    icon
    btr1701 (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 12:44pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    > Whoosh!

    Ah, yes. Such a well-spoken rebuttal. How on earth can I possibly compete with someone making the written equivalent of cartoon noises?

     

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  100.  
    icon
    btr1701 (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 12:46pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    > The rules are applied evenly, and without
    > bias based on race, creed, color, gender,
    > origin, or other.

    An unreasonable search doesn't become reasonable merely because it's racially fair.

     

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  101.  
    icon
    TheWebb (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 12:58pm

    Down, down, down, down, down

    Down with the TSA.
    Down with the Patriot Act.

    End the bureaucracy! We need our liberties back!

     

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  102.  
    icon
    bjupton (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 1:00pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    No, I'm pretty sure my point was quite clear. I think the rest of us understand exactly what I meant. The 'Whoosh!' is the sound of the idea travelling at high speed past you.

    So try this on for size:

    Your relentless focus on a phrase where a few people have typed the wrong letter distracts mightily from the conversation that people are trying to have. Yes, it is not the correct phrase. Yes, the letters are relatively far apart such that it seems as though a typo would be hard to make between 'e' and 'y' on a standard sized keyboard. Of course, I do much of my typing on my phone, and boy, those keys are a lot closer there, and if I'm off slightly to the right, maybe it thinks I'm trying to type 'probably' cause it thinks I hit the 't'. And sheesh, when you are focused on getting an idea out, sometimes the words come out slightly jumbled. I don't think most people edit their web posts as though they are turning in their dissertation, nor should they.

    So, there's about a zillion different ways that someone can absolutely know what they are talking about and put the wrong letter there. Your focus on that indicates that you are a bit of a self-righteous prig, more interested in playing gotcha to inflate your ego than having a conversation like an adult.

    Hope that gives you something to chew on.

     

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  103.  
    identicon
    Bob Loblaw, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 1:01pm

    Re: Re: The Progression

    Don't they already do that in New York?

     

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  104.  
    icon
    btr1701 (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 1:01pm

    Re: USA inc

    > making all State citizens now property of
    > this corporation D.C. In truth D.C. controls
    > no where on the mainland other than its small
    > patch

    That makes no damn sense (not that you 'sovereign citizen' types ever do). How can DC be both powerless *and* in control of every citizen in the country at the same time?

     

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  105.  
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    btr1701 (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 1:06pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    > Your relentless focus
    > on a phrase where a few
    > people have typed the
    > wrong letter distracts
    > mightily from the
    > conversation that people
    > are trying to have

    If you believe two simple one-line posts qualify as 'relentless' and that all it takes to 'mightily distract you' are those two mere posts, then your problems are more profound and go much deeper than anything that can be addressed here.

    Good luck with them.

     

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  106.  
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    bjupton (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 1:13pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I do find it interesting that you chose to go after a pretty inconsequential part of my critique: the number of times that you made the same prigish, nit-picky point.

    I trust that this means that you are satisfied with the rest of my analysis.

    You are now free to take the last word. I'm sure I've more than belabored this point. Everyone else knows what I'm saying and you will not change your mind.

     

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  107.  
    identicon
    An-other-onymous, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 1:36pm

    Re: Re: We gave up our 4th amendment rights long ago

    The war on reason?

     

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  108.  
    identicon
    Southerner, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 1:48pm

    Re:

    Yeah, you would think that maybe in your fancy northern school they might have taught you that federal agencies have jurisdiction over all the states, not just 'the south'.

    But what do I know, I'm just a dumb southerner runnin' around with no shoes or education from 'yer fancy learnin places...

     

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  109.  
    identicon
    S, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 1:54pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    I know that there is a certain kind of mind who just thinks, "Oh, close enough -- I can just hit any old keys and they'll get the idea," but there are also people who think that the unchecked promulgation of obviously mistaken (and stupid and annoying) spelling or phraseology should be checked.

    Do you also think it's a-okay to say "lie-bary" instead of "library", to pronounce it "Feb-you-ary" instead of "February", and to say "new-qyoo-lear" instead of "nuclear"?

    The point has been made -- previously and again here -- that it isn't a mere typo, as multiple people are making the exact same mistake in the exact same manner.

    While you may differ, I tend 2 thnk tht its bttr 2 nip thingz in de bud b4 dey gett 2 far owt off hand.

     

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  110.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 2:23pm

    Re:

    i do believe my state has ruled DUI checkpoints unconstitutional.

     

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  111.  
    icon
    Capitalist Lion Tamer (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 3:08pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    They can check every truck in line. The rules are applied evenly, and without bias based on race, creed, color, gender, origin, or other. The courts have held this doesn't blow the 4th amendment, especially when a valid government interest is at hand (namely drugs, illegal immigrants, terrors, or the smuggling thereof).

    If the rules were really applied "evenly," they'd be checking every vehicle on the road. There's a bit of discrimination going on already if you're only going after those that are being conveniently routed through a pre-existing checkpoint.

    In fact, the "convenience" factor makes this even more constitutionally dubious. With the DOT doing half the work by simply manning the weigh stations, it gives the whole thing a tint of "Well... since you're already here..." Sort of like getting a speeding ticket and having the cop say, "Well, since I already have you pulled over, why don't I just take a look in the trunk and glove compartment?" without having any reason to do so.

     

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  112.  
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    Capitalist Lion Tamer (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 3:30pm

    Re:

    You and Spaceman Spiff below make it sound as though I worded that last paragraph a bit too vaguely.

    What I had in mind was a new Neighborhood Watch system involving patrolling TSA agents and a snitch line to be used by your neighbors to vindictively report "suspicious" activities. For instance, someone spots some suspicious activity in your basement. The next thing you know, you're being interrupted in the middle of laundry to answer questions about your homemade drug-stuffed bomb assembly line.

     

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  113.  
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    btr1701 (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 3:42pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    > I do find it
    > interesting that
    > you chose to
    > go after a pretty
    > inconsequential
    > part of my
    > critique: the
    > number of times
    > that you
    > made the same
    > prigish, nit-
    > picky point.

    First you describe them as relentless and mightily distracting, then you turn around say it's inconsequential. Which is it? Can't be both.

    And now you've added 'interesting' to the mix, as well. Are you not distracted anymore? You're all over the map here.

     

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  114.  
    identicon
    panhead20, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 4:13pm

    Uncontrolled search and seizure

    Uncontrolled search and seizure is one of the first and most effective weapons in the arsenal of every arbitrary government. Among deprivations of rights, none is so effective in cowing a population, crushing the spirit of the individual and putting terror in every heart.

    Justice Robert Jackson, chief U.S. prosecutor at the Nuremberg Trials

     

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  115.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 6:45pm

    "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

     

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  116.  
    identicon
    TSA Van 104, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 7:53pm

    Re: Re: Two comments...

    Noted. Thank you, Citizen.

     

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  117.  
    identicon
    VMax, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 7:56pm

    Re: Re: Re: The Progression

    I like that idea. There are some seriously hot women in my neighborhood.

     

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  118.  
    identicon
    VMax, Oct 21st, 2011 @ 8:12pm

    Re: it's Probable Cause i said so.

    I guess women with "too much junk in the trunk" could be searched?

     

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  119.  
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    Michael (profile), Oct 21st, 2011 @ 10:08pm

    I don't believe this. It sounds too much like an article from The Onion.

     

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  120.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 22nd, 2011 @ 7:06pm

    Re: Re:

    If you're a congress critter, then you don't get searched. That's how America has two sets of laws.

     

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  121.  
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    Montezuma (profile), Oct 23rd, 2011 @ 12:11am

    I want the TSA to come to Georgia and attempt to monitor riders of MARTA, either bus or rail. If and when that occurs, then my pals at GeorgiaCarry.Org and GeorgiaPacking.Org will organize large groups of people to come and openly carry their firearms in front of the TSA, and/or any other idiots involved. Perhaps citizens will feel more safe when they see fellow citizens armed. Hell, it cannot make them feel less safe than having the TSA around.

    Of course, such a thing would never happen in California.

     

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  122.  
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    Bergman (profile), Oct 23rd, 2011 @ 6:06am

    Re: Re: The Progression

    Sure. Then the U.S. will use a drone to fire a missile at you.

     

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  123.  
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    Bergman (profile), Oct 23rd, 2011 @ 6:08am

    Re: Re:

    Sure there is. He was probably stopped 'cause he was missing his license plate. =P

     

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  124.  
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    Bergman (profile), Oct 23rd, 2011 @ 6:12am

    Sooner or later, some bright idiot in the TSA will take note of the fact that in between traveling, "terrorists" stay at home. Shortly thereafter, I expect a VIPR operation to start kicking in doors without a warrant.

    Don't like it? Don't live in the USA!

     

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  125.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 23rd, 2011 @ 2:36pm

    Re: Re: We gave up our 4th amendment rights long ago

    The War On Insufficient Patriotism

     

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  126.  

    Re: The Progression

    And to think that Richard M. Stallman has been doing that all of his life - and advocating us to do exactly that (no joke, just check his website).

     

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  127.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 24th, 2011 @ 4:40am

    Re: Re: it's Probable Cause i said so.

    For the sake of the Union they must be searched.

     

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  128.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 24th, 2011 @ 4:46am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Sorry, I was trying to make a subtle hat-tip to 1984, not actually dispute your point in any way.

     

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  129.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 24th, 2011 @ 4:49am

    Re:

    It's never lupus.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  130.  
    identicon
    qkslvrwolf, Oct 24th, 2011 @ 11:09am

    They're already working on that "walking in public" thing

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  131.  
    identicon
    hothmonster, Oct 24th, 2011 @ 1:53pm

    Re: Re:

    No I just spend my life looking for places to insert Monty Python and Simpsons references. Your utopia was clearly painted.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  132.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 24th, 2011 @ 1:57pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: The Progression

    of course its a catch-22 because these women would never talk to you after seeing you naked. ZING!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  133.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 24th, 2011 @ 2:00pm

    Re: They're already working on that "walking in public" thing

    reminds me of one of the my favorite except from the police reports section of the newspaper. I was living in small town in northern Wisconsin and found this is in the daily police actions section of the paper: "Police respond to reports of possible terrorist activity, was two kids fishing."

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  134.  
    identicon
    john crawford, Oct 20th, 2012 @ 4:40pm

    Re: Re: The Progression

    soon it will be: "if you don't like it, don't sit in your living room" or " don't live in this country" ... where does it end? WHAT 4th amendment? They don't recognize or abide by it anymore.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  135.  
    identicon
    Aha!, Dec 4th, 2012 @ 10:30am

    Re: The Progression

    NYC already got u if you're just walking down the block....."stop and frisk"

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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