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US Postal Service Sends Postage Due Bill To Guy Who Put Block Party Invites Into Neighbors' Mailboxes
from the usps-desperation dept
US Postal Service's (USPS) desperation is beginning to show. We already noted its new ad campaign that seems to focus much more on how bad email is, rather than on any additional value provided by the USPS. But now, it appears that the USPS is cracking down on illicit use of its mailboxes. As you may or may not know, under US law, home mailboxes (even though they're purchased by the homeowner) are technically property of the USPS, and it's actually against the law to put anything other than US mail with proper postage in a mailbox. But it's one of those laws that just isn't enforced very often. Lots of folks put things in mailboxes directly. For example... neighbors organizing a street-wide event.
But, apparently, the USPS has had enough of that. After discovering that a family in Connecticut planned a Halloween blockparty by putting invites into their neighbors' mailboxes, the USPS sent the family a bill for postage.
But, apparently, the USPS has had enough of that. After discovering that a family in Connecticut planned a Halloween blockparty by putting invites into their neighbors' mailboxes, the USPS sent the family a bill for postage.
"One Monday I had a note it is illegal to put these in mailboxes. Day 2 I had a bill for assumed 80 in the box, times 44 cents for the stamp," the father, Jeff, told WFSB. "I haven't paid it yet. I'm trying to have the conversation that no one is willing to have."At least they're not seeking fines as well. But is this really a particularly good use of the USPS's time?
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usps can solve its woes
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Re: usps can solve its woes
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Re: usps can solve its woes
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Re: Re: usps can solve its woes
Then when people find ways around it they simply have to pay the government to pass draconian laws that prohibit that behavior, and increase their prices more.
And when more people break the law just pass more laws that are more draconian and raise prices again.
Wash, rinse, repeat.
Because this is America, and our motto is "If that doesn't work, do more of the same."
But having presumably gotten $3520 out of this guy, if they manage to do that, and assuming it doesn't cost them anything to do so (not the case, but hypothetically), what good do they think it will do in the long run? They've just alienated a customer, who may eschew USPS as much as he can from now on, and probably a lot of his neighbors when they hear about it. And friends and family. And people reading this article and others, aside from the trolls, shills, and corporate apologists. Certainly next time he distributes anything like this he'll leave it on their porches or stick it in their doors.
And what happens as this repeats around the country, again and again? Even if they win every case, they turn people against their cause.
Hey, I can help. A credit card company recently pissed me off and I decided to go with paper bills until I can pay them off and destroy the card. I went paper because I decided I wanted to cost them as much as possible in the interim. (Yeah, I can be petty. But they cost ME money.) Well, if I decide I dislike the USPS more, I can log in and tick a box, and presto! there's one less letter a month for them to carry. And the CC co. still gets to lose my business in the long run.
If 80 people do that with all their bills, how much did the USPS make from charging one guy for 80 letters?
The USPS needs to find new ways to be relevant. Diversify. Improve and extend their package delivery, for example. Shipping bits can be done electronically, but shipping atoms still takes people and trucks. I don't know what or how, but that's not my problem. I just know that beating up kids for their lunch money isn't the answer.
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Re: Re: Re: usps can solve its woes
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Re: Re: Re: usps can solve its woes
Just pass stricter penalties for breaking those laws until those penalties become absolutely ridiculous.
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Who owns mailboxes?
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Re: Who owns mailboxes?
It's early days yet perhaps, but they seem to be headed down the same road. Another industry whose death throes consists of attacking customers and filing lawsuits, while others service the customers they alienate.
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Re: Who owns mailboxes?
I can't find my original source but I believe the USPS also has the power to prevent UPS and Fedex from undercutting their prices (or in other words set's the minimum price they can charge)
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Re: Re: Who owns mailboxes?
> power to prevent UPS and Fedex from undercutting their prices
The source is the US Constitution:
Article I, Section 8, Congress shall have the power... to establish post offices and post roads.
The Supreme Court has interpreted that clause to mean the federal government has a postal monopoly and can dictate the extent (if any) that private entities may engage in mail delivery.
So yes, Congress (via the USPS) could legally prevent any other company from undercutting prices, providing certain mail delivery services, or even from operating at all if they wanted to.
Basically, FedEx, UPS, etc. operate at the pleasure of the federal government. It's a unique situation that applies only to the mail delivery industry.
There's been quite a bit of debate in legal circles about the extent of the postal monopoly and whether it applies only to physical mail or whether even email is covered under USPS constitutional authority. My guess is that if it ever was challenged, the Supreme Court would likely rule that email is an entirely different thing and not covered, but that's just me.
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Re: Re: Who owns mailboxes?
That's right, you can send a letter by FedEx if it's urgent, since that's not covered by the USPS monopoly. If it's not urgent, they will graciously let FedEx deliver it (at their full price) but it has to have a stamp on it, too.
I suspect the compliance rate was near 100%. (plus or minus 1.)
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Re: Re: Who owns mailboxes?
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Re: Who owns mailboxes?
In essence, yes.
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Re: Re: Who owns mailboxes?
Also, on the same note, is there any law preventing someone from say, starting a company that made these 'parcel boxes' that could be placed outside their homes for any delivery service to use?
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Re: Re: Re: Who owns mailboxes?
My understanding of the law (remembered, no citation) is as long as the box meets USPS requirements and receives mail, it's their property.
is there any law preventing someone from say, starting a company that made these 'parcel boxes' that could be placed outside their homes for any delivery service to use?
I can't see why there would be so long as the "Others" box had no functionality with USPS at all. If it's not for USPS use it's out of their jurisdiction.
Of course, where I live that piece of hardware already exists: We call it a porch. :)
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I don't see why you couldn't put up a UPS box, but who knows - maybe the papers have to pay a licensing fee or some other such nonsense.
I'd like to see someone put up a no-mail box, and then cause a stink when the usps puts somethin in it..
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Who owns mailboxes?
Some people do put up a UPS box or generic "Package" box. USPS can't use it (at least they shouldn't) because it isn't an "Approved" USPS box, but other package companies can use it.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Who owns mailboxes?
It would be nice if we could have one box in front of our house to get all deliveries in regardless of delivery method, but it will take a lot of effort from the federal government to make that possible.
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Re: Re: Re: Who owns mailboxes?
No. The USPS does not technically own your mailbox, but there are laws that make them *effectively* own it. If you build your own and use it for USPS first class mail delivery, those rules kick into play. You can, of course, take it down anytime you like and it's entirely yours again.
Also, any mailbox you build has to conform to USPS design regulations in order to be used for delivery.
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Re: Who owns mailboxes?
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Please tell them that I'll be there at 9:00 AM tomorrow morning for the keys.
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Re: Who owns mailboxes?
This isn't some government scheme to keep a monopoly. The laws are designed to stop people from opening your mailbox and/or dumping shit in it.
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Re: Re: Who owns mailboxes?
An interesting document from the Government Accountability Office:
http://www.gao.gov/archive/1997/gg97085.pdf states "The Postal Service believes that this law, generally called the “mailbox restriction,” is needed to protect postal revenue, facilitate efficient and secure delivery of mail, and promote the privacy of postal customers." (primarially aimed at UPS & FedEx)
They also quoted the law in question:
18 USC § 1725. Postage unpaid on deposited mail matter
Whoever knowingly and willfully deposits any mailable matter such as statements of accounts, circulars, sale bills, or other like matter, on which no postage has been paid, in any letter box established, approved, or accepted by the Postal Service for the receipt or delivery of mail matter on any mail route with intent to avoid payment of lawful postage thereon, shall for each such offense be fined under this title.
Thanks, Rachacha.
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Re: Who owns mailboxes?
"As you may or may not know, under US law, home mailboxes (even though they're purchased by the homeowner) are technically property of the USPS, ..."
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Re: Who owns mailboxes?
Basically yes.
30 years ago in a moment of youthful indiscretion, I was caught with a car load of friends playing "mailbox baseball" (we grand-slammed an off-duty sheriff's neighbor's mailbox - how stupid were we?). I was issued a felony ticket for "malicious destruction of federal property". Luckily, the judge took pity and I was ordered to pay restitution and court costs, but the judge withheld judgment - so no permanent record.
So yeah, mailboxes are actually federal property.
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Re: Who owns mailboxes?
It was written this way to protect your mail, and it is a federal offence which could result in jail time. He was fortunate it was just a bill.
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Can he get postal retirement?
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Ah, just like some clauses in a certain law that some people claim that won't be abused.
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WHAT!
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Re: WHAT!
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WTF?!?
RLY?!? How broken is that? If I'd install a letter box I don't own it? How are non-USPS people supposed to get a message to me, when I'm not at home? Well, we've a lot of ridiculous laws over here, but this one is a whole different class.
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Re: WTF?!?
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Re: WTF?!?
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Re: WTF?!?
UPS, FedEx, DHL, etc all ring the bell, and leave packages at the door step.
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Re: Re: WTF?!?
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Storage
So - assuming that the box is on the homeowner's property you can bill them for storage of their box.
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This is a complete non-story. Of course the USPS demands payments when people and businesses violate the law. Every so often a pizza place or some direct marketer thinks they can get away with it, and sometimes they do. But when they don't, they have to pay.
Anyone who feels sorry for this guy, please send me your address. I'll fill it up with crap and then we'll see if you change your mind.
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If people didn't want to receive them they put a 'No cirulars' or a 'No junk mail' sign on their letterbox and I wouldn't deliver to those ones.
It was easily enforced as you could just complain to the company OR the council - the council would tell the company to smarten up and they would abide as they didn't want annoyed [potential] customers. This would trickle back to me via the delivery company I worked for.
Ive never heard of anyone complainging about this way of doing things and it means people can still pop their invites or lost puppy flyers sa they please.
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Response to: Ima Fish on Oct 14th, 2011 @ 5:16am
Why imagine. I live in it. It's called most countries other than the USA. What a backward law. You should send a bill to USPS asking for land usage fees for storage of their mailbox.
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Re: Response to: Ima Fish on Oct 14th, 2011 @ 5:16am
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Re: Re: Response to: Ima Fish on Oct 14th, 2011 @ 5:16am
However, be forewarned. If you have anything that fits within the regulation of a mailbox, the letter carrier will deliver your mail to that receptacle (and it becomes your mailbox, and immediately gets the mailbox restrictions.) If you do not have anything like that on your property, then the letter carrier will return your mail to the post office where it will be held for a short period before being returned to sender. They will not tell you that they are holding your mail, so you'll have to go to the post office daily for pickup. Standing at the long lines at the post office or waiting for a long period while the post office "finds" your mail might make this get old...but at least you don't have their property on your property.
My sister lives in a rural location where the post office won't deliver to her house. She has to drive to the post office daily to pick up her mail...but luckily she falls under the limited 4.9.3b category and they give her a free post office box to deliver her mail to. Sucks when she has a company that won't send mail to a P.O. Box though.
Funny thing, UPS and FedEx have no problem delivering to her house though.
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Re: Re: Re: Response to: Ima Fish on Oct 14th, 2011 @ 5:16am
I have a mailbox on my front porch, next to the inside door. Several times, when there's been a substitute mail carrier, they've simply opened the outside door and thrown the mail on the floor of the porch.
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The way I see it, if a pizza place spams your mailbox, they are only hurting themselves: Would you go eat at a place that fills your mailbox with ads every day? Also, it costs them money to spam you in real life, unlike in cyberspace, so they won't.
"Anyone who feels sorry for this guy, please send me your address. I'll fill it up with crap and then we'll see if you change your mind."
This isn't very smart. Would you be willing to travel across the country just to make a point?
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Unfortunately, if someone tells it or writes it, it's a story, maybe you don't agree with it or it's a bad story but it's still a story.
also, you forgot broadbrush, mike the pirate and the various other insults that are normally mandatory for these posts.
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You will? How are you going to get all that crap here? Remember, no using the USPS.
That's the point. What businesses today are going to choose a print marketing campaign that requires legions of paid workers goose-stepping to everyone's mailboxes and illegally putting something inside...as opposed to just starting an email blast?
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Actually no, it's because the USPS wanted a monopoly.
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This isn't New or 'Rarely Enforced'
They haven't heard of/done it to community block parties, (and I'm not defending this) but it seems to be a well established, well used part of the law.
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Re: This isn't New or 'Rarely Enforced'
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Re: This isn't New or 'Rarely Enforced'
My parents neighborhood has individual mailboxes and people are always using them for personal things like block or birthday parties, lost pets, etc.
I live in neighborhood that has those mailbox banks and they are locked, so we can't get anything that doesn't come through the USPS in our boxes. So if people want to distribute hardcopy invitations or lost pet notices, they have to do so by canvassing the neighborhood and sticking them to our doors.
Or, better yet. Just use email. USPS is pricing themselves out by constantly raising postage rates anyway. I can't remember the last thing I mailed or shipped. The last time I had to use a stamp, it was 30¢.
Would I miss the USPS if they went away? No, can't say that I would. My paper shredder would get a break, though.
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Re: Re: This isn't New or 'Rarely Enforced'
I still have a half roll of stamps that were paid for at 38¢ each. I haven't used them in years.
I consider snail mail much the same as fax, pointless and archaic. Email is far faster and more convenient.
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Re: This isn't New or 'Rarely Enforced'
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A revenue idea for USPS
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Re: A revenue idea for USPS
Someone should come slap you with a large trout.
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Re: Re: A revenue idea for USPS
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Who doesn't know that it's illegal to peruse someone else's mailbox. I've known that since I was a kid. Where I was grew up, we didn't worry so much about people putting things you didn't want in the mailbox, it was people taking things that you did want out of the mailbox. Either way, hands off the mailbox.
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The truth, who owns the mailbox
The truth is USPS does not own the mailbox itself. That is the property of the person who bought the mailbox. USPS owns the space inside the box. I realize it's splitting hairs, but it is important.
You can paint your box any color, decorate it however you want. It can be any shape or size you want. However, you cannot use the space inside the box without authorization.
That's also why bashing mailboxes is a felony. It compromises the space inside the box. If you do it, better hope you don't get caught because it's not just one charge. It's one charge for each box you bash.
Any way.... Gotta get back to work.
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Re: The truth, who owns the mailbox
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Re: The truth, who owns the mailbox
At least that was the way it was in Virginia, 21 years ago.
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Re: The truth, who owns the mailbox
That means that the US government will be part of the USPS!
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Re: Re: The truth, who owns the mailbox
Except the space now inside the box, yes.
Please don't do that. The Galactic Collective had a hell of a job fixing it last time that happened. They had to get the Time Corps to go back in time and prevent it, and we're still seeing probability ripples from the resulting disruption of the space/time continuum.
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Re: The truth, who owns the mailbox
I have a mail slot in the door, and therefore there is no space for USPS to own, but much of my junk mail gets eaten by the dog.
Does that mean USPS owns the inside of my dog's stomach? If so, they are welcome to take possession of those contents, though I'd recommend they use one of their waterproof priority/express mail envelopes for delivery.
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I would say, after reading through the posts so far, that the USPS owns everything on your side of the slot since technically the slot makes your home the mailbox. Just hope they don't decide to charge you postage for the entire contents of their box!
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MAILBOX MANIA
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Federal law
This isn't some government scheme to create a monopoly.
It's to stop asshats from dropping 9,000 flyers on your mailbox. If they want to mail me, buy a stamp. In my old neighborhood people would drive through the neighborhood and stuff flyers under the flag on the mailboxes. Then 10 minutes later, there would be flyers all over everyone's yards.
I worked from home and could see my mailbox from my office desk. Anytime I would see someone doing this, I would take a photo of them, print the photo, get the flyer, and stick both in an envelop marked "Deliver to Postmaster".
The postmaster then estimates the number of flyers illegally delivered and bills the person. This is a courteous. The other option is that person being tried for breaking a federal law.
I'm all about small government, but I support this law 100%.
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Re: Federal law
(No, I don't support this law.)
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USPS owns lotsa stuff you don't realise.....
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Oh? So if I cut myself on it, I can sue them - right?
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Lot of people put up a "No Advertisment" though, and it works.
If none but the postal service could use your mailbox would be impractical. We have snow in winters.
Ps
Can't you put up a second mailbox with the sign "For non USPS usage only"?
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My HOA would loose their fucking minds if you did that..
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This guy is a world class idiot! Everyone knows it's illegal to use mailboxes for anything other than mail.
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(Just to join the chorus), up here, in Canada, we have no such laws, (that I've ever heard of), and there really aren't any problems. As it happens, it's cheaper, (and more effective), for companies to use the local flyer printing service than to print & deliver themselves, so once a week, I get a yellow bag full of fliers in the mailbox that goes directly into recycling.
I've never been around while the flier boy is delivering, but if I were, I could tell him to stop delivering to my house and that'd be that.
And surely if someone does something mischievous, like stuff a mailbox full or use it to store slugs or something, I'm sure there are other laws that have nothing specifically to do with mailboxes that can be used to punish the person responsible.
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We have a large outdoor mail box container at the end of the street on the very busy road. That is the new trend around here to save money. No longer door service just close to your block. This way the mail person can drive down the busy main streets and stop (blocking all traffic) and fill everyone's mail boxes in the area in about 5 minutes.
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Your Account is Past Due.
To: PostMaster, {Your Hometown}
From:{Name, Address}
This is an official notice that your account is past due. The United States Postal Service (USPS) has an easement upon my property located at {address}, over the course of time, the USPS has blatently ignored my repeated requests to not deliver mail belonging to A:)Former Residents of said property, or B)Mailings addressed to one Current Resident.
As such, it is my duty to inform you that as of {date}, there will be a new rental fee for your use of my property located at {address}. This fee is for the involuntary easement upon my property for the placement of your "Mailbox". This rental fee will apply from {date} to {date} at which point, you may either A) Renew your lease for said rental fee, or B) Renew your lease for free via written agreement to no longer deliver circulars to {address}.
You may also continue leasing said property to host your "Mailbox" for free by signing an agreement that explicitly states the USPS shall no longer deliver mail to {address} that is either addressed to A) Previous tenants of said property, or B) "Current Resident".
Unfortunately in this economic climate, the necessity for this rental fee has become unavoidable.
Should you have any questions about your bill please feel free to contact me at:
XXX-XXX-XXXX
Thank you,
{Current Resident}
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Instead of a "mail" box you bought and paid for and installed (which you don't own?) - what about mail slots in your door? That's what our old house had...no mail box, just a slot labeled "mail"...do they own that too?
We did buy a "mail box" (which we paid for, have the receipt for too...it is ours, NOT the postal service's) and installed it all by our little ole selves. We taped a plastic sign to it that says "newspapers".
Finally had to tape a second sign to it: "This is not a mailbox...please use the slot labeled "MAIL".
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Seriously, the last time I registered a "change of address" for their 1 year forwarding service, I starting getting junk mail within a day or so with my new address. That's right, no forwarding labels, my new address that no one else other than the post office and my landlord had was printed on the envelops and cards! Later, someone sent a package to my old address, so I contacted the new tenant. She gave my the package and a stack of envelopes. None of them had been marked for forwarding, and the post dates went back to 1 1/2 months after the 1 year forwarding service began! About all I get is junk mail anyways, so I don't even bother registering my new address with the post office anymore. Now it just takes a bit longer.
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what if there is no "space inside my box" ?
seriously when taken to the limit, this notion that the USPS owns your mailbox space is absurd. whats the difference between my mail slot that goes into my home, and an open window? it doesnt take a great leap of critical thinking to realize that the man being charged for postage is pretty much set to sue the crap out of the USPS. not to mention this is not exactly the best way to rally the public in support of your dying industry.
double facepalm USPS. Double facepalm.
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At least that's what I read...
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Mailboxes and Election law
It is illegal to place election material inside of a mailbox (unless it's actually mailed). That's why campaigns that are following the law will instruct canvassing volunteers to bow the paper and put it between the doorjamb & the door knob, or slid it under the side of a mailbox, or do basically anything besides physically opening the mailbox & inserting election material.
2. I think a lot of this ignores the root problem. Yes, some overofficious USPS employee is going overboard, BUT why is the USPS in this position? Because the Congress has mandated that they pay ahead the next 70 years of benefits over the next couple of years. This blew a ginormous hole in their budget.
Adding to that is the Republicans insistence on the USPS paying for itself. That makes sense if its a private business, but the mail is a public service with responsibilities of ensuring communication access to all addresses, no matter what, that private companies are not bound to.
Imagine if public transit had to pay for itse- oh wait, no wonder there's always service cuts and price hikes. Or imagine if FIRE DEPARTMENTS had to pay for themselves? Thankfully, we're not there yet in the US, but it's only a matter of time... unless we as a country smarten up.
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Re: Mailboxes and Election law
Well, if republicans had their way, the fire department would only enter or protect buildings that lawfully displayed a notice for fire insurance. Then the democrats would "fix" it by requiring everyone to pay for fire insurance. Finally, you would end up with police harassing the homeless for not having a fire insurance notice on their cardboard "housing", at the behest of the insurers, and the insurers cutting corners by not even making their official notices fire proof, just so they could get out of having to pay for the fire department in addition to the property damage.
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Postal Worker
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Re: Postal Worker
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Re: Re: Postal Worker
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Did not actually break the law (though the courts may disagree)
Furthermore, even if he did know about the law, his choice to use this delivery method was surely predicated on convenience, not financial reasons.
Finally, I doubt the flyer was "mailable matter" in its current form.
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Re: Did not actually break the law (though the courts may disagree)
Hey, that's another fine!
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The problems with the USPS aren't due to the post office
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Property
> by the homeowner) are technically property of the USPS
Still trying to figure out how that works legally. If I go to Home Depot and buy a mailbox, it's my property. No question. At what point does legal title transfer to the government? The moment I affix it to my home or land? The moment a mail carrier puts mail in it? And how can the government convert my private property into public property without reimbursing me for the cost, as required by the 5th Amendment?
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Re: Property
Although I must admit, it is a very fuzzy relationship.
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Re: Re: Who owns mailboxes?
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FPO/APO
I can't tell you the number of times I have tried to order something online and receive a response that, because my address is FPO (Navy overseas), I am unable to receive the package via the Postal Service. I can spend the extra money for UPS or FedEx, if that option is available.
I don't know how the FPO/APO rules are set up, but apparently they must be strict (and stupid) because it is no different sending mail to military overseas than sending it to someone in the States, yet a lot of companies refuse to use it.
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Re: FPO/APO
Now, this is what I want to know. I order from Amazon on almost a weekly basis, and not once has there been a customs form on the outside of it for my APO address. Every other company I've ordered from has had to fill out a customs form.
Here's a little trick if they won't ship to APO/FPO. Use NY as your state. If they aren't checking zipcodes, NY is the same as APO/FPO. Test it out with something not important, but it's worked for me.
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Re: Re: FPO/APO
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It;s Illegal
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Mail Box and ownership
Either the people own it and fund it or the USPS owns it and should be pressured to fund the boxes or shut up and go away.
Almost every day I scream in agony because the USPS sucks so bad. They break more than 50% of what I ship. They frequently lose (and don't reimburse me) for packages sent priority (they also do a horrible job on regular mail too).
Like a growing number of Government functions, if the USPS were a private company, they would be out of business because of how pathetic their quality is. And before the statistic police start yapping, I DON'T GIVE A FLYING MONKEY about "out of XXXXX pieces of mail sent..." because out of the mail I SEND and RECEIVE, about 50% of all non-junk mail is lost, damaged, or takes >3 weeks to receive even though it's all domestic.
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Greatness
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My postman threatened me with legal action
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Just to clarify...
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KBM Lawn & Landscape, LLC
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