Drop In P2P File Sharing Due To Limewire Shutdown A Pyrrhic Victory For The Recording Industry

from the all-those-interested-people...-gone dept

A whole bunch of folks have been submitting NPD's latest report, which notes an apparently large dropoff in P2P file sharing in the fourth quarter, which it attributes to the closure of Limewire. I had hesitated to get into this, because NPD's numbers and analysis have historically been suspect, so I always take anything that comes from them with a pretty large grain of salt. They also work for the usual suspects, calling into question some of their objectivity.

And, indeed, there are certainly some questions about the accuracy of the report, which involves self-reported user surveys -- generally not the most reliable method of getting accurate data on something like file sharing (especially in the wake of something being shut down for being "illegal.") That said, the numbers are big enough that even if they're a bit off, it certainly does suggest something happened, and just to be nice, I'll even grant the basic premise that file sharing in the US slowed down when Limewire shut down. Limewire historically has been popular, though not with the more technically savvy folks, but with a more general crowd, who tended to treat it much more like radio than as a way to "obtain" music.

But here's the big question: assuming we accept this massive dropoff in P2P file sharing, was there a corresponding jump in music sales?

I am pretty sure that we won't see a corresponding giant leap in music sales for the same quarter. And that's kind of the point that we've been making all along. For all this talk of enforcement, why can't anyone provide any evidence that it actually leads people to go back to buying stuff? In the case of Limewire, since most users didn't really look at it as a replacement for sales, but as a replacement for radio, it's not likely that they're suddenly going to run to start paying. Instead, they'll switch to other options, whether it's YouTube, Pandora, GrooveShark or something else. If Spotify were actually available in the US, I would bet that it would sop up many ex-Limewire users.

And that's really the major point here. Rather than seeing this decrease as a "victory" for the RIAA (as some have suggested), it highlights what an astounding lost opportunity it has been. Limewire, whatever its faults, was very eager to work with the recording industry to monetize the massive user base it had. And the record labels refused, just as they refused to negotiate with Napster a decade ago (something many in the industry now claim to regret -- despite the fact that they've done it again and again and again). So rather than taking that opportunity, it's been squandered. Similarly, if the record labels got their act together, services like Spotify would have launched in the US long ago. But the labels keep demanding more and more ridiculous conditions on the deal, and thus, the people go elsewhere... often to places where the labels won't get paid at all.

This is what happens when you mistakenly think that the thing to focus on is stopping infringement rather than making more money. It's the "but... but... piracy" argument all over again, where people get so focused on that, they forget the endgame. So, sure, the shuttering of Limewire may have stopped people from using P2P to obtain files. But will it actually get people to buy? Unlikely. And that's a massive squandered opportunity.


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    Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 8:40am

    And then we have the fact that the drop is only temporary until people figure out that there are other platforms that can be used for exactly the same thing and switch to those. And then the industry will target that platform, bring it down and we start the cycle again.

    None of this, of course, is getting them any money (unless limewire pays them the 75 trillion they apparently owe...lol). Which kinda makes me wonder: what's the point?

     

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      Designerfx (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 8:57am

      bingo

      this is a Limewire -> Bittorrent change, meaning it's harder to be tracked and identified to a decent degree.

      Not the kind of change they'd want.

       

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      Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 9:52am

      Re:

      I am pretty sure that we won't see a corresponding giant leap in music sales for the same quarter.
      No citation, of course. Just wishful thinking.

       

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        Marcus Carab (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:05am

        Re: Re:

        So, to clarify, you are going on record here as believing that there will be a corresponding leap in music sales?

        Let's see how that plays out.

         

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        Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:11am

        Re: Re:

        Has the industry released the figures? If so, why don't you provide the citation? If they haven't released the figures, then how do you expect him to provide a citation for a personal prediction?

         

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        Chronno S. Trigger (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:12am

        Re: Re:

        No citation needed for an "I'm pretty sure..." statement. It's an opinion.

        There's also no citation available yet. The numbers have yet to be released.

         

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        Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:13am

        Re: Re:

        The citations come from the financial reports the labels put out every quarter have you not seen them?

        LoL

         

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        Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:22am

        Re: Re:

        The citations you want.
        Look there at that puny net revenue they call profits.
        http://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:WMG&fstype=ii

        Is all red.

         

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          The eejit (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 2:49pm

          Re: Re: Re:

          To be fair, their gearing ratio is still relatively small. I'm not optimisatic of their chances, however.

           

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          Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 3:11pm

          Re: Re: Re:

          Thanks for that, I was curious what the numbers actually looked like too. Looks like WMG lost 1 million more than this same quester a year ago, and they've been losing boatloads of money for a while now. Hard to believe they are still in business and that shareholders haven't demanded the CEO step down a long time ago.

           

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            Ed C, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 5:51pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            Your right, anyone that manages to piss way that much profit just doesn't deserve to be in business. I guess the labels use the as accounting practices as the studios do. ;)

             

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      ECA (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 3:46pm

      gOOD COMMENT, AC..

      Good comment but lets look at this a different way..

      FROM DOS to WIN95..

      win 95 was created as point and click inferface to introduce computers to MORE PEOPLE..
      After the introduction until NOW.. Computer USERS have been learning things. HOW to make windows DO THINGS, how to FIX windows.. Many of those younger users have gained knowledge of HOW computers work.

      Dont you think they are Learning HOW the internet works?
      IF 1 avenue dont work, LETS FIND ANOTHER.. Then ANOTHER..
      Eventually they MAY find a BETTER WAY.

      All the Corp is doing is FORCING it underground. Forcing SHARING into the mist, where they cant see it. BUT, also into the arena where you will have to PAY to have access to systems and you better KNOW the sysop to gain access. Just like the Drug use gangs. Its going to get to being TOTALLY private.

      AS the DEA has said. 99% of the MJ they find around the country is along irrigation ditches.. Finding GROWERS is getting harder and harder.

       

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    Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 8:41am

    In the other thread(i.e. the one about the study stating piracy is no responsible for sales decline), there was this dude gloating, and honestly I don't think they realize it, that their sales are gone forever, people are not only spending less they are annoyed with the industry.

    There will be no significant increase in sales and we all can laugh hard at the industry pundits who for years said that piracy was to blame for their problems.

    Now they have this great "victory" against piracy, that is being trumpeted as some sort of great moment, but I still didn't see sales go up, so it can't be piracy the problem, not piracy alone anyways.

    I will now ROFLMAO, because I know they will never see a dime from me ever again and that I can promise.

     

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      Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 8:51am

      Re:

      "Now they have this great "victory" against piracy, that is being trumpeted as some sort of great moment, but I still didn't see sales go up, so it can't be piracy the problem, not piracy alone anyways."

      This point cannot be stressed enough. P2P traffic has dropped (sharply, apparently). Now, let's assume that all (or a large majority) of that traffic is "pirate" traffic. If sales do not increase, then one must conclude that piracy is not hurting sales.

       

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        Anonymous Poster, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 9:24am

        Re: Re:

        "P2P traffic has dropped (sharply, apparently). Now, let's assume that all (or a large majority) of that traffic is "pirate" traffic. If sales do not increase, then one must conclude that piracy is not hurting sales."

        This would be true for logical, rational human beings.

        The RIAA clearly employs nobody like that anywhere in their organization.

         

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        Michael, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 9:36am

        Re: Re:

        I will be clear - I do not believe piracy is a lost sale or that the music industry is in shambles, etc., etc.

        However, you have a logic fail:

        "If sales do not increase, then one must conclude that piracy is not hurting sales"

        No, it could also mean that once someone has turned to illegal file sharing they are a permanent lost customer or will become unlikely to come back and buy soon after file sharing is no longer an option. This evidence also supports the idea that "piracy" has already done irreparable damage.

        I don't necessarily believe it, but it is also a possible conclusion.

         

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          Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:04am

          Re: Re: Re:

          Possible but improbable.
          You see if that was true nobody would have bought anything since the introduction of 8-Tracks.

          God knows I pirated everything in my youth and only stop "buying" all that junk after Sony(the DRM) and Napster(The suing), I didn't spent a dime in music since.

           

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            Michael, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:41am

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            "You see if that was true nobody would have bought anything since the introduction of 8-Tracks."

            Not necessarily. They could be ok temporarily. Since they have digital versions of the music, they old re-purchase of music because the media has changed (the CD comes and we all bought the white album again) has almost certainly been reduced. So you may have a portion of time in which people that were "pirating" music may abstain from purchasing anything new in protest. I agree, this seems unlikely, but it is not impossible.

            Your statement that one must now conclude piracy is not hurting sales is taking a rather simplistic view that may not take into account some longer term effects. In actuality, we know the digital age (with piracy as part of it) has absolutely diminished the sale of CD's. What we see from the evidence presented in the article is that, at least short-term, a reduction in PTP activity does not help sell more of them.

            This is not about whether or not piracy and this age of sharing is hurting the record companies, it is about whether or not their strategy of fighting piracy would help even if they "won".

             

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              Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 11:01am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              We don't "know" that piracy was the factor that reduced CD sales.

              What I do know is that I don't see discmans being sold what I do see in stores are MP3 players everywhere.

              What I do know is that if you sell USB thumbdrives they sell more than CD's.

              What I do know is that singles sell 10x less than the price of a full album.

              What I do know is that people pirated and acquired songs for free long before the internet and that didn't appear to have a negative effect on sales.

              What I do know is that after the industry started to sue everyone their sales tanked for good, just plot the numbers from the financial reports of the labels and you will see when that sharp drop happened.

              Piracy may or may not hurt sales, but if it hurts so does radio, so did the 8-track, so did the cassette tapes, what were the long term effects of decades of unabashed piracy since the inception of recording devices?

              As I recall everyone I knew knows what a mix-tape is and they all did it, they also recorded radio and the radio stations even had promotional nights with 1 hour without interruptions, everybody pirated and it was cool, now a younger generation of managers freak out about it?

              Not cool.

              About your comment that people may abstain, well I don't know about others but I have been abstaining for the last 10 years.

               

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              The eejit (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 2:51pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              Who needs the white album when you have a numbered white label version of Black Sabbath's Paranoid on 12"?

               

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          Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 3:16pm

          Re: Re: Re:

          I agree here. Plus, there'll need to be some time before people consider purchasing music again too; it doesn't happen overnight. The people that used Limewire weren't technically savvy, and chances are they don't have an alternative (yet), but they've gotten used to not paying for music they want to listen to, and it'll be difficult to convince them that they should. These are also people who probably didn't buy too much music to begin with, and they definitely would not have bought music in the same quantity they listened to it/downloaded it via limewire.

          My money says they'll simply go back to recording their music off the radio and wait until they hear about the next big thing on the news...

           

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    The Buzz Saw (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 8:43am

    Was there a jump in music sales?

    I don't think corresponding sales matter to them. The war on piracy stopped being about "protecting revenue" long ago. It is an emotional campaign driven by the rage of seeing people enjoy something they did not pay for.

     

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      fogbugzd (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 8:57am

      Re: Was there a jump in music sales?

      >>It is an emotional campaign driven by the rage of seeing people enjoy something they did not pay for.

      Moral outrage may explain the feelings of the artists involved, but I don't think it explains the industry exec's position. I think continuation of the campaign can be attributed to a couple of things. For the music recording industry, they desperately need something to blame for declining sales. They don't want to address the real issues, so they blame piracy for all of their woes. For both the recording industry and the movie industry (which is still doing relatively well by many measures) it is a problem of repeating their own FUD for so long that they now believe it. The myths about private infringement have become embedded in the corporate culture, and if you want to advance in the industry you must recite the "piracy is killing us" mantra.

       

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        Mike42 (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:40am

        Re: Re: Was there a jump in music sales?

        I believe you are both correct, and cudos to The Buzz Saw for pointing out envy is as much at work here as scapegoating.

         

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        Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:51am

        Re: Re: Was there a jump in music sales?

        I agree. In a way this is a lot like Regan's welfare queen. The fiction slowly becomes the fact.

        At some point every conversation about welfare (music, movies, etc.) comes down to those who accept the fiction for truth and those who still realize it is a fiction; people on welfare are all lazy and abusing the system (copyright infringement, wrongly called stealing, is the ONLY problem with the industry).

        I like TechDirt, but sometimes I feel like Mike is wasting his time talking about the "big labels." The people working at these places have so much emotional investment in the lie that any evidence to the contrary is seen as a personal attack. Just look at some of the trolls in this and other threads. Heck, just look at some of the musicians comments in threads on this site. Anyone who has convinced themselves that copyright infringement is literally a form of theft is probably beyond hope, the lie is too ingrained.

         

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      Mr. Oizo, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:00am

      Re: Was there a jump in music sales?

      Yeah well, those that want the money did not create it.

       

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    John Doe, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 8:44am

    But, but

    "It's the "but... but... piracy" argument all over again, where people get so focused on that, they forget the endgame"

    I can understand someone with a dog in the fight focusing on the buts, but what I don't understand is when Joe consumer gets blinded by that argument. I have tried to discuss this with people and they just can't get past the whole "piracy is wrong/theft" argument. I try to get them to see that while yes, piracy is wrong, focusing on stopping pirates just blocks them from seeing the big picture.

    Combating pirates is better left to the Navy while record labels, movie studios and publishers should focus on making money.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 8:48am

    Has anyone considered that by the time Limewire was shut down, the "long tail" desires of most people had been met, and as a result, there is no increase in music sales because most people have huge libraries of pirated music already?

    Also, we don't know the effects if Limewire stayed active. Is the current music industry decline better than it would have been?

    The potential is that piracy has decimated the market for years to come, and has taught an entire generation that just taking what you want is okay, acceptable, and in some way noble.

     

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      Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 8:57am

      Re:

      What I do know for a fact is that the day they started suing people was the day they saw their sales tank sharply, there is no hiding those numbers, it is recorded history.

       

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      Jay (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 9:00am

      Re:

      Please read the article again. PLEASE, especially this part:
      For all this talk of enforcement, why can't anyone provide any evidence that it actually leads people to go back to buying stuff? In the case of Limewire, since most users didn't really look at it as a replacement for sales, but as a replacement for radio, it's not likely that they're suddenly going to run to start paying. Instead, they'll switch to other options, whether it's YouTube, Pandora, GrooveShark or something else. If Spotify were actually available in the US, I would bet that it would sop up many ex-Limewire users.

      I'm sorry, but your "piracy is evil" routine is in another castle.

       

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      Dark Helmet (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 9:08am

      Re:

      "Has anyone considered that by the time Limewire was shut down, the "long tail" desires of most people had been met, and as a result, there is no increase in music sales because most people have huge libraries of pirated music already?"

      Well, if that's the case then we can all just pack up and go home, right? If the great evil of raporacy resulted in people getting to that mythical line where they have all the music they want now and no new artist can break this lack of desire, no matter how good he/she/they is/are, then it's all over. And, more importantly, it would have been over with or without the raporacy. You're suggesting that once we acquire a certain amount of music, we won't want any more. I can't imagine what you're basing that on....

      "Also, we don't know the effects if Limewire stayed active. Is the current music industry decline better than it would have been?"

      You're right, we don't know that, but it really doesn't matter. The execs in charge aren't tasked with slowing the decline of their business, they're tasked with getting their businesses to make as much money as possible. Clearly, what they're currently doing isn't working. It's really that simple.

      "The potential is that piracy has decimated the market for years to come, and has taught an entire generation that just taking what you want is okay, acceptable, and in some way noble."

      Well, which market? The market for recorded music? Absolutely. Piracy had a hand in it, though likely not as much as the emergence of single song digital sales, the economic decline, the emergence of other entertainment options, and the prevalence of indipendently released music on the internet. But, sure, piracy probably had some kind of hand in it.

      But so what? Either way, it's over. CD sales are going to go away for a myriad of reasons. And yet music is still being created. A LOT of it, in fact.

      So where's the global problem here?

       

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        Chosen Reject (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 9:23am

        Re: Re:

        You're suggesting that once we acquire a certain amount of music, we won't want any more. I can't imagine what you're basing that on....
        Hullo! Are you suggesting people have been making music since the release of Greensleeves?

         

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        Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:11am

        Re: Re:

        But so what? Either way, it's over. CD sales are going to go away for a myriad of reasons. And yet music is still being created. A LOT of it, in fact.

        This is my favorite piece of nonsense that gets spewed here. There is some sort of magic belief that "before piracy" or "before the internet" that nobody made music, that there were no bands, except for bands waiting to be plucked up by record labels and made stars.

        What a freaking joke.

        Before the internet (and for people old enough to remember, before the "disco revolution"), the live music scene in the western world was huge. The big clubs were the ones not with the latest laser toy and a guy selling Ecstasy tabs in the washroom, but places with stages, live bands, dance floors, and shows. They made music, they performed music, they sold music... all outside of the "label system".

        Many bands got their breaks not from signing with a record label, but by self publishing. There were tons of EPs, singles, and compilation disks made over the years as bands recorded and promoted themselves, selling swag (t-shirts, singles, and such) after shows, and promoting themselves with it. One famous case is metal band Motley Crue, who pretty much self-promoted themselves out of LA and into the national limelight on the back of a self published disk that sold 20,000 copies. They used that to get a distribution deal in Canada, a tour, and the rest is rock and roll history.

        Music is always created regardless. It was before, it is now, there isn't really a difference.

        The global problem? Ask me again in 10 years when classic rock is still grinding along and the "hot new internet bands" from 2010 are all out there working day jobs and wishing they had actually gotten paid for all the effort they put into music for nothing.

         

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          Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:23am

          Re: Re: Re:

          I think you need to tune your reading comprehension a bit. That text you quoted cannot, in any decent language, imply what you made it imply. To me, it reads "despite the fact that CD sales are dropping, music is STILL being made (as in, music was already being done before)".

          So, basically, you made up something that nobody ever claimed and attacked that. Ok, cool. I could think of better ways to spend an afternoon, but ok...

           

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          Jay (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:30am

          Re: Re: Re:

          I guess you're right. They have day jobs. They don't look like a regular musician.

          Their music isn't mainstream. No one would like it.

          There's a language barrier. We won't understand.

          They're Dutch

          They're Russian

          They're Jewish

          But you know what? At least they're passionate about trying to do something for themselves. Whether it pays off today or in 10 years, at least they get up every day if not to play, then to find a way to make that road easier. When the industry dies, those people will continue to make the music. The money from the defunct lobbying programs and the overpaid Congressmen will eventually be dispersed to newer endeavors.

          I'll just be happy to know that at the very least, the spirit of music will continue to live on.

           

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            Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 3:31pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            Points for Anamanaguchi. One of my more favored Waffles finds...

             

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            AW, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 8:49pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            Jay Awesome recommendations! Now I have some new music to look into. Sadly this is the first new music in a least 3 years I've found worth it to look into.

             

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              Jay (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 11:02pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              If you ever need even more, I'll be more than happy to answer requests on my twitter page. No, I'm not using this to promote my twitter, but I love to help someone find new, legal music that isn't RIAA.

               

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          Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:31am

          Re: Re: Re:

          Exactly music gets created and consumed despite piracy, which is not really piracy, people sharing songs and distributing them among themselves unfortunately will not mean the end of the world because there are other revenues streams available that are capable of supporting artists, they just want have the power to stop people from sharing it no matter which laws are in place, people will just find legal alternatives that gives them what they want and they want to be able to share, if you think that is not clear by now you better pay attention to services like Jamendo that will grow and flourish while the big 3 go under.

           

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          Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:36am

          Re: Re: Re:

          But I'm being rude, let me at least tackle this point:

          "The global problem? Ask me again in 10 years when classic rock is still grinding along and the "hot new internet bands" from 2010 are all out there working day jobs and wishing they had actually gotten paid for all the effort they put into music for nothing"

          The difference is that the bands of today are firmly set in reality. They know they cannot battle piracy through brute force. They must connect with fans and give them a reason to buy. If they fail, I assume they were prepared for the possibility, unlike the aging dinossaurs who bitch and whine every time someone does not buy their new "Our best songs from the 60's" disc (volume 3: a compilation of the songs in volume 1 and 2). If they fail, well tough.

          Also, I don't think that we should cheer the fact that "classic rock" is still "grinding along", if is true in 10 years. That would mean culture was stuck in the 60s. We need to evolve, even if it is at the expense of some decaying stars.

           

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            Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 11:16am

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            The difference is that the bands of today are firmly set in reality

            Yup, they no longer have any long term plans, everything seems to revolve around getting a bunch of views on youtube as fast as you can and then fading away like a one hit wonder - without the hit.

            I don't think that we should cheer the fact that "classic rock" is still "grinding along", if is true in 10 years. That would mean culture was stuck in the 60s. We need to evolve, even if it is at the expense of some decaying stars

            It's not cheering, trust me. It's a rather sad thought of the movie industry ending up like music, where the best movies were made in (say) the 90s, and 20 years from now we will still be watching them because it was a high water mark, and everything after was fairly lame.

            Classic Rock is a the classical music of a generation. We tend to forget that outside of a certain amount of classical music, there are any number of musical trends over the last 500-600 years that have come and gone, and have been all but forgotten, because while they were popular for a short time frame, they were not significant. My personal feeling is that music is in one of those "not significant" times, where the combination of auto-tune and "anyone can do it" tools has created some truly forgettable music, label or not.

            When you step back, the current situation isn't very productive for anyone. There is a lot of flailing about, but very little produced of note (except perhaps Jay-Z's 99 Problems... but I digress).

             

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              Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 1:03pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              Quote:
              Yup, they no longer have any long term plans, everything seems to revolve around getting a bunch of views on youtube as fast as you can and then fading away like a one hit wonder - without the hit.,

              you are aware that what you described is the old business model and how it worked right?, so whats new again?

               

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              The eejit (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 2:57pm

              Evidence you're clearly wrong


              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK2tWVj6lXw

              Moreover, the entire scene has changed - you don't need to be a worldwide phenomenon to make a modest living from music anymore.

               

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              BigKeithO (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 3:38pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              You should listen to more music then, tons of great indie rock out their for instance.

               

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          Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:47am

          Re: Re: Re:

          The global problem? In ten years people will be worrying about the universal problem with all these hot, new alien bands playing for negative space dollars.

           

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          Dark Helmet (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 11:07am

          Re: Re: Re:

          That was the most epic strawman of all time. Not only did you quote me and then willfully misinterpret the quote in such a way that no one with a testicle-sized brain would accept your version, but then you applied it to Techdirt globally.

          I applaud your trolling skills sir, although I wish you could have included a "save the children" reference or car analogy....

           

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          Killer_Tofu (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 11:18am

          Re: Re: Re:

          Holy strawman batman!
          There is no possible way to take what Dark Helmet said and get what you are saying he was arguing. Just no way.
          You have got to tell me how you got there because its such a huge jump I think I would have more luck trying to jump the Grand Canyon.

           

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        Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:33am

        Re: Re:

        "for myriad reasons"...not "for a myriad of reasons"

        oh yea, and "indipendently"?

         

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          Dark Helmet (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 11:00am

          Re: Re: Re:

          ""for myriad reasons"...not "for a myriad of reasons"

          oh yea, and "indipendently"?"

          Coffee machine was broken this morning. It's hell, man....

           

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          RadialSkid (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 1:47pm

          Re: Re: Re:

          Actually "a myriad of" is the more traditional (and grammatically preferred) phrasing.

           

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            A Dan (profile), Mar 28th, 2011 @ 6:55am

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

             

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              RadialSkid (profile), Mar 31st, 2011 @ 5:15am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              Meriam Webster disagrees:

              http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/myriad

              Recent criticism of the use of myriad as a noun, both in the plural form myriads and in the phrase a myriad of, seems to reflect a mistaken belief that the word was originally and is still properly only an adjective. As the entries here show, however, the noun is in fact the older form, dating to the 16th century. The noun myriad has appeared in the works of such writers as Milton (plural myriads) and Thoreau (a myriad of), and it continues to occur frequently in reputable English. There is no reason to avoid it.

              If "myriad" was the Greek word for "ton," the criticism would make sense...but it's not the Greek word for ton, it's DERIVED from said word.

               

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                RadialSkid (profile), Mar 31st, 2011 @ 5:20am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                Correction: That last part should read "Greek word for 10,000," not "Greek word for ton."

                And "Meriam" is also misspelled, for the super-pedantic.

                 

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      Jim L, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 9:23am

      Re:

      No it has taught them the law of supply and demand.

       

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      Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:31am

      Re:

      "piracy ... has taught an entire generation"

      Maybe the teaching is correct?

      "that just taking what you want is okay, acceptable, and in some way noble."

      There is nothing wrong with copying what you want.

       

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      btr1701 (profile), Mar 26th, 2011 @ 3:50pm

      Re:

      > The potential is that piracy has decimated
      > the market for years to come

      A 10% drop in the market isn't so bad. If all they are is decimated, they're doing pretty good, actually.

       

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    Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 8:49am

    Pyrrhic.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 9:00am

    P2P and torrents have indeed declined, but there's been an even bigger increase in datalocker downloads in the past year. There are now some functional search engines for datalockers so the kids have moved on to an even easier method for getting their music.

    The beauty of the datalockers is that there are so many of them. When the **AAs harrass one (rapidshare for example), or one tries to go legit (hotfile for example), there are seven others to take their place.

     

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      Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 9:08am

      Re:

      ...or people are going to legal places to find music and share.

      Like Jamendo, Magnatune, Spotify, Youtube and many, many others, nobody uses lockers to pirate music, people don't need to pirate music illegally anymore they can do it legally now.

       

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        Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 9:15am

        Re: Re:

        nobody uses lockers to pirate music, people don't need to pirate music illegally anymore they can do it legally now.

        They can pirate music legally now?

         

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          Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 9:20am

          Re: Re: Re:

          Well, from the recording industry's point of view, if you acquire music, and you don't pay them, then you are a pirate. So, I suppose that I and many other would qualify as "legal pirates".

           

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            Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 9:21am

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            For downloading form Jamendo, that is.

             

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            Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 9:24am

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            Nobody in the industry is claiming that, talk about bull crap. If the artist puts the music out for free, that is their choice. If a "fan" decides to put an artist's music out for free, that is a problem.

            If you can't understand the difference, it's no wonder you support "piracy", just like Mike does, because neither of you seem to really understand what you are supporting.

             

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              Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 9:33am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

               

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              Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 9:38am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              What are you supporting when you think a fan exposing a favored artist to other potential fans is a problem? Has it ever been anything but? Have you never experienced radio? Have you never played or recorded something for someone else to experience at no cost to them?

              You seem to support a model/system/mindset that is continually proving itself to be too stupid to live in this day and age.

               

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              Marcus Carab (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 9:40am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              Nobody in the industry is claiming that, talk about bull crap. If the artist puts the music out for free, that is their choice

              So what about the dajazz1 seizure affidavit, in which all of the example "infringing" songs submitted as evidence had been sent by the artists for free

               

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              Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 9:57am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              That is why I don't "buy", rent or lease anything from an artist that don't use a CC Commons license, that is why I tell all my friends how wonderful Jamendo and Magnatune are, that is why those artists that don't do it will never see my money.

              It is not a problem if a fan distribute music, it is how we share culture, we pass to one another trying to forbid that is the real problem, but I guess you are blinded by greed and power.

               

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              Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:48am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              "If the artist puts the music out for free, that is their choice."

              That's why collection agencies demand money from restaurants and other venues who want to host independent performers under the pretext that someone "might" infringe, or else the collection agencies threaten the venues with an expensive lawsuit with potentially insane statutory damages if the collection agency wins (but if the venue can even win any damages, the statutory damages in its favor would be relatively small in comparison, often smaller than the legal expenses).

              That's why radio frequencies are wrongfully monopolized by corporate gatekeepers, to wrongfully make it more difficult for artists to create and distribute their free music.

              No, I don't buy the argument that the legal system, record labels, and corporations argue that artists should be able to freely release their content. Outside the Internet the system is exactly designed to resist such a thing and to make content artificially more expensive for absolutely no good reason. They may claim such a thing, that copy'right' is for the artists, but their actions, the actions of our legal system, speak very differently.

               

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                Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 11:19am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                (it's also why copy'right' is opt out and partly why it lasts so long, so that artists will automatically default to not releasing their content for free. CC and other similar licenses were an unintended and unexpected consequence of making copy'right' opt out).

                 

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              Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:50am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              "Nobody in the industry is claiming that"

              That's not true.

              http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090811/0152565837.shtml

               

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            Not an Electronic Rodent (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:09am

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            Well, from the recording industry's point of view, if you acquire music, and you don't pay them, then you are a pirate.

            Well, from the recording industry's point of view, if you acquire, listen to, are informed of or even think about music, and you don't pay them, then you are a pirate.
            There FTFY :-)

             

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          Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 9:53am

          Re: Re: Re:

          Yes they can it is called CC Commons music, which you can freely distribute and share.

          Doubt? here check it out :)
          http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/77452

          That is legalized piracy my friend the new order of things, why would I pay to not be able to share music with people?

           

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            Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:13am

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            +1 Internets to you my friend.

            This is all I have to give back for now:

            http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/4818

             

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            Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 12:07pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            That isn't "legalizes piracy", talk about an oxymoron concept.

            It's just an artist choosing to give away their music. That is always an option.

            If you can't tell the difference between this and actual piracy, then things are much worse than anyone makes out, because the population are turning into morons.

             

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              Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 12:39pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              Speaking of morons . . . .

               

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              Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 12:45pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              The population is using technology available to it.

              The population is the only thing permitting copyright to exist.

              The population is bigger than you. The population has the pockets you want to pick. The population no longer respects your way and has chosen the highway.

              You have always been invited to come along, but choose to stay behind choking on the dust waving a tattered copy of How It Used to Be.

              Who's the moron?

               

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              Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 12:47pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              Of course it is, I can fileshare those files all I want, if I did that with other crap music sold by some creepy people they would call me a thief and pirate, that is the legal version of the piracy you keep claiming happens, which I find to be absolute BS.

               

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    Eric L., Mar 25th, 2011 @ 9:25am

    Actually...

    ...if the RIAA actually thinks this is a victory, maybe they will withdraw and go home.

    I know, wishful thinking. ;)

     

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    McBeese, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 9:35am

    The music war is over...

    I think the music war is over, even if a few battles are still to come over the next few years.

    Streaming has won, most people just don't know it yet. Why would I take the trouble to buy or pirate music, manage it, back it up, and distribute it to my devices when it is available to me on demand from several different streaming services? People are lazy and streaming is easier so streaming will prevail just as surely as water flows down hill.

    Yes, some people will still copy music files but they won't be the mainstream consumer. Everybody will have some obscure favorites that aren't available on many of the streaming services, but these bands weren't likely to generate large followings anyway, so they will be happy if people copy and distribute their music.

    Streams will generate money using advertising and/or reasonably-priced subscriptions.

    Everybody wins.

     

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      Brian Schroth (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 9:45am

      Re: The music war is over...

      Yeah, I'm really going to want to be tied to a data connection to listen to my music...Wait, no, that would be awful. Even when wifi access becomes ubiquitous I'm still not going to want my music to suffer from outages when I could have it all with me without that hassle.

       

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        McBeese, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:00am

        Re: Re: The music war is over...

        Hassle? What hassle? Hassle is downloading, storing, backing up, syncing, organizing, ...

        I may not be typical (yet), but I'm only ever without a data connection when I'm on planes. And don't forget, many of the leading streaming services already offer caching options so that your music isn't interrupted when you're without network coverage.

        You can pretend the world is flat, but it isn't. Streaming has won. If you're holding on to digital file libraries, you're soon to become the new generation of dinosaur.

         

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          Jay (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:12am

          Re: Re: Re: The music war is over...

          I think there's room for both.

          There ARE people that enjoy huge collections of... Stuff for lack of a better word.

          While the cyber locker is great, along with the idea of huge online storage, I still enjoy the idea of having a lot of (my own) music on a hard drive. It might change, but there's still plenty of viability in backing up everything you have on ever larger external hard drives.

           

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            McBeese, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:18am

            Re: Re: Re: Re: The music war is over...

            Sure, and some people still prefer vinyl.

            There will always be stragglers and exceptions, but I think we're at the front end of another mainstream format migration. Vinyl went to tape which went to CD which went to digital files which is now going to streaming. In my opinion.

             

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              Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:29am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The music war is over...

              The only wrench in your theory (and this is no judgement on your theory), is ISP controls on bandwidth consumption, via pricing or capping or throttling or what have you.

              Those efforts plus the entertainment industry's antagonism toward streaming services...okay, two wrenches. ;)

               

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              Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:40am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The music war is over...

              IMO that is not fully going to happen, servers go down, servers loose service, political situations appear that create legal barriers, it reminds me of the lean clients that IT people were so psyched about it and that never really got traction exactly because it was not reliable enough, plus on the cloud is giving the power to someone that is not you to control your life you become dependent on others to come through for you and that never ever ended up well.

               

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              BigKeithO (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 3:42pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The music war is over...

              What if you go camping somewhere without coverage? The entire world isn't covered with data coverage. What if you travel overseas? Would you pay the insane roaming data rates to stream your music?

              Nice theory but no where close to reality.

               

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              Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 3:59pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The music war is over...

              I agree with you for the mainstreamers. Not mainstream as in music, but mainstream is in a majority of listeners in a majority of situations. For most people, streaming is fine. In a lot of cases, it's preferred (road trips and parties come to mind).

              That said, there will still be a ton of people download, collecting, backing up, syncing, etc their own music for any number of reasons. However, the point is moot, that's not at all what you are arguing.

              I think relative to the users in question here (those that were using limewire), streaming music will quickly become their replacement. Until their ISP caps the hell out of their connection and the services go under due to the labels unwillingness to create a fair contract anyway.

               

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          Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 12:06pm

          Re: Re: Re: The music war is over...

          Streaming has won. If you're holding on to digital file libraries, you're soon to become the new generation of dinosaur.

          This is completely wrong, of course, as has already been demonstrated repeatedly when content services have abruptly shut down and left their users with no content, no refund, no recourse. You don't own the bits unless you store the bits, on your media on your computer on your network. Any other alternative -- like the trendy-but-stupid approach of "storing them in the cloud" -- leaves you vulnerable not just to outages and security breaches, not just to government fishing expeditions, but to the deliberate shutdown of the service in question.

          The aggregate price of media (purchase, maintenance, operation, backup) has already dropped to the point where it's easily feasible to store all of one's books, photos and audio on local media. Video will fall within that scope in a few years, given current trends. So, for example, a many-TB network fileserver in the basement, with a synchronized backup in a friend's basement somewhere else -- which by the way, can stream just as easily as anyone else's server -- is a far better idea than relying on a streaming service which may delete all of artist X's artwork or songs or videos tomorrow because of a rights disagreement or a court order or just because.

          "The cloud" is a trendy buzzword favored by marketing departments who would like people to stop doing their own computing and cede power back to corporations. The sad part is that many -- clearly unaware of history and/or unable to learn from it -- do so willingly.

           

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        Marcus Carab (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:11am

        Re: Re: The music war is over...

        Even when wifi access becomes ubiquitous I'm still not going to want my music to suffer from outages when I could have it all with me without that hassle.

        By that logic, you should exclusively use a hand-cranked phonograph, or maybe pay a string quartet to follow you around.

        Connectivity is only going to saturate the world more and more. Outages are always a possibility, as they are with electricity, but that possibility is easily outshined by the convenience.

         

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      Chris Rhodes (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:32am

      Re: The music war is over...

      Streaming

      Don't worry, we have our lawyers working overtime to destroy this technology as efficiently as possible.

      - The RIAA

       

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        The eejit (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 3:03pm

        Re: Re: The music war is over...

        RIAA,

        I'm sorry, your pockets aren't deep enough for us, we're going to lobby your Congresscritters to kill you with dogs and bad lyrics now.

        Sincerely,
        A. S. Inine and M. oran.

         

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    Brian Schroth (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 9:43am

    typo alert, Phyrric -> Pyrrhic

     

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    Steven (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 9:51am

    Double blind

    The Recording industry players are missing two big things that are going to destroy them if they don't wake up.

    The first, that is commonly talked about, is the move from a scarce to a non-scarce product. They just don't seem to be able to break the value/price split that this brings to the table.

    The second, which is talked about in a bit of a round about way, is the move from the advantage of scale to the leveling of the playing field. The entire reason they guys could be the 'gatekeepers' for so long was their ability of scale. The internet has now given everybody that ability of scale. What they could do (if they had any good standing in the community left) is move from gatekeeper to filter to help people connect to music they like. But instead they'll just give that up and die.

    As Mike has noted before it's really worth trying to learn from this as this is going to happen to nearly all industries. The products don't even have to be infinite (as digital files aren't truly infinite anyway) it just has to be able to out produce demand.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:00am

    Has anyone thought of the idea that the results of this hog wash came out late? That it was supposed to help influence the judge to support them suing for the trillions of dollars...only it didn't arrive on time to do the job?

    It is likely you will never hear of this article again because it doesn't send the right message that the music industry wants put in the public's face. If you do hear of it again, it will someone using it to make a point of how wrong the latest industry puff piece is.

    AC #8 has a good point. In the process of chasing after the pirates, hell bent for leather, no matter whom gets in the way, that same industry has generated a lot of ill will.

    I seriously doubt I will ever again buy from the majors just because of how they have been in the past. At some point I woke up and realized what a bastard they've been. That drug me to sites like this where I had my eyes opened more on just what the heck they are up to and why.

    Before that, long before that, I was a regular music buyer. Now I don't buy anymore. I've changed my entertainment values and requirements and music just isn't part of it.

    So no matter if they manage to lock up the net or not, the ill will has had a reinforcing effect and they have lost a customer permanently for all sorts of reasons. The prime one being I don't like how they do business and won't support them.

     

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    VancouverDave, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 10:00am

    What everyone seems to be overlooking here is that RIAA does not do this to increase artists' revenue, or even labels' revenue.

    It does this to increase RIAA's revenue. Showing "results" allows RIAA to continue to charge the labels for its services; I suspect that showing large headlines and purchasing legislation in major countries allows RIAA to also increase its rates and, so, its profitability.

     

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    darryl, Mar 25th, 2011 @ 11:05am

    Poor Mike, cant steal anymore..

    It would not be because you Americans are POOR at the moment, you cant afford your houses, your cars, your food, or anything else.

    You cant even afford to manufacture anything!


    Yet, Mike conviently ignores that, it's all about what you can steal for Mike.

    Who does not mention the massive problems you have, as long as you can steal things.

    and there will not be a direct or immediate change in sales, and the other fact is most DO NOT use limewire as a "radio" they use those services to download music.

    then listen to it, not to be fed with music like radio, where you get what you are given. that is paid for by advertising.

    But the US is a basket case, cant even balance its own books, but as long as Mike can flog his crystal balls, and rip people off with shit stories that feed the trolls.

    and does absolutely no good for anyone (except mike). then the US deserves all it gets.

    Enjoy being powned by China :)

     

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    •  
      icon
      Chuck Norris' Enemy (deceased) (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 11:50am

      Re: Poor Mike, cant steal anymore..

      ...and rip people off with shit stories that feed the trolls.

      I'm so glad you're back darryl...frothing at the mouth no doubt.

       

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    •  
      icon
      Joe (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 12:48pm

      Re: Poor Mike, cant steal anymore..

      "Yet, Mike conviently ignores that, it's all about what you can steal for Mike."

      I hope enjoys those Nikes I got for him, although it seemed a bit of an odd request just to browse a website and read his article.

       

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    •  
      icon
      The eejit (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 3:04pm

      Re: Poor Mike, cant steal anymore..

      Wow, someone forgot to try their brain out for a warm-up again.

       

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  •  
    icon
    artistrights (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 5:46pm

    But here's the big question: assuming we accept this massive dropoff in P2P file sharing, was there a corresponding jump in music sales?

    "Album sales for the five-week period ending March 21 totaled 31.95 million units, up 4.5 percent from the corresponding period in 2010, and digital downloads were up 12.7 percent to 130.1 million units, marking the first time since 2004 that music sales have experienced a year-over-year gain of this length, according to Nielsen SoundScan."

    -Source: http://www.grammy.com/blogs/music-sales-up-for-five-straight-weeks

     

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    •  
      identicon
      Anonymous Coward, Mar 26th, 2011 @ 7:53am

      Re:

      Of course Masnick will ignore how stupendously owned he just got here...

       

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      •  
        icon
        PaulT (profile), Mar 26th, 2011 @ 12:33pm

        Re: Re:

        Still no evidence of causation. How do you explain a similar jump reported last year in the UK (before Limewire was shut down, but after Amazon, Spotify and 7digital were finally allowed to sell to the UK)?

         

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        •  
          identicon
          Anonymous Coward, Mar 26th, 2011 @ 2:05pm

          Re: Re: Re:

          No one really cares whether you want to keep your head in the sand or not, Paul.

          We're going going to see more enforcement this year and next, and the corresponding bump in sales. We already know what your reaction to these things is going to be.

           

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          •  
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            PaulT (profile), Mar 26th, 2011 @ 2:49pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            "No one really cares whether you want to keep your head in the sand or not, Paul. "

            Ah, your usual response. "My opinion is right and yours is wrong", with nothing to back it up. Typical.

            "We're going going to see more enforcement this year and next"

            I'm sure we are. Will it affect file sharing in any direct way? I doubt it, but that's my opinion.

            "the corresponding bump in sales"

            Correlation still != causation

            "We already know what your reaction to these things is going to be."

            My reaction will be to look deeper into the figures and try to work out why any such bump has happened. Will it be because of the enforcement? I very, very much doubt it, but we'll see when we get there.

            But, it could be something else. Will it because Spotify finally got their way around the US licencing maze? Because of whatever ends up happening with Warner and EMI? Will there be something else, say better albums or some musical trend driving sales? I don't know, but we'll see when we get there.

            You, of course, will still be trying to deny that anybody who dislikes the current system could be anything but a pirate, and continue to attack every presentation of alternative business models. Meanwhile, ifg a drop occurs instead of a bump, you'll be saying it's the fault of the pirates and not they continued failures of the industry.

             

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          •  
            identicon
            Anonymous Coward, Mar 26th, 2011 @ 10:12pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            ...LoL

            Well he and another 7 billion people are not very concerned about it sorry.

             

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            •  
              identicon
              Anonymous Coward, Mar 27th, 2011 @ 6:41am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              We'll assume you're worried that your numbers are shrinking, as you had to make up such a silly number there.

               

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              •  
                icon
                The eejit (profile), Mar 27th, 2011 @ 8:26am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                No, there are over 7 bollion people on the planet, by a wide margin. Seeing as only a few million are vested interests, I'd argue that it's more accurate than the RIAA's $75Trn suit against Limewire.

                 

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  •  
    icon
    artistrights (profile), Mar 25th, 2011 @ 5:53pm

    But here's the big question: assuming we accept this massive dropoff in P2P file sharing, was there a corresponding jump in music sales?

    "Taylor Swift enjoys ‘Speak Now’ album sales after Limewire shut down: Swift’s triumph in the sales chart is one of the first success stories of music artist after Limewire.com’s big shut down last week."

    http://www.popherald.com/limewire-taylor-swift-speak-now-album/1609

     

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  •  
    icon
    ECA (profile), Mar 26th, 2011 @ 2:13am

    SOP

    Standard operating procedure in economics is..

    IF your product isnt selling...LOWER THE PRICE..CUT YOUR PROFITS..

    also, is the object of availability..
    IF the store dont have what I want...I aint buying.. And I havnt seen a GREAT music store in YEARS..

     

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  •  
    icon
    PaulT (profile), Mar 26th, 2011 @ 3:19am

    Alternatives

     

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  •  
    icon
    ECA (profile), Mar 27th, 2011 @ 2:31am

    OK, understand something STUPID

    IF I was(stupid) the movie/recording industry...

    I would want the SAME price in all the countries that I send Music/video to..

    So, lets think about that.

    $10 AMERICAN is EQUAL to WHAT in other nations??

    In MANY nations, $10 US, is about equal to a WEEKS/MONTHS PAY for working..

    WHY charge the SAME amount in USA dollars?
    because SOME persons in the USA found something out..."IT WAS" cheaper to order things from other nations..

    SO, what to the Cits, in other nations DO??(I wont tell you)

    HOW does the Audio/Video corps MAKE up the difference?
    CHARGE YOU MORE, AND MORE AND MORE AND MORE..
    They dont want to DEAL with the concepts of capitalism.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]


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