Administration Forces PJ Crowley Out Of The State Dept. After He Admits That Manning Is Being Mistreated

from the what-happened-to-dissent? dept

When President Obama was campaigning and elected, one of the things he frequently talked about was how he was influenced by Doris Kearns Goodwin's book, Team of Rivals, and how President Lincoln brought together may dissenting voices into his cabinet. There were, clearly, political reasons for doing so, but part of the benefit was that it allowed voices of dissent to be heard. However, in practice, it's appearing that President Obama has no real interest in allowing the same thing to occur in his administration, and that's really unfortunate.

On Friday, we wrote about the quite surprising news that State Department spokesperson PJ Crowley had admitted that he felt Bradley Manning was being mistreated in prison. Crowley specifically called it "ridiculous and counterproductive and stupid," despite also saying he believed that Manning clearly belonged in jail, and that the leaks were harmful. When President Obama was asked about this later, he gave a very weak answer about how he had asked the Defense Department, and they assured him everything was fine:
"I have actually asked the Pentagon whether or not the procedures that have been taken in terms of his confinement are appropriate and are meeting our basic standards. They assured me that they are."
Of course, that might just raise serious questions about what the DoD thinks is "appropriate" and what those basic standards are.

But, even more troubling is the report that Crowley has resigned from the State Department, with lots of folks saying this was due to direct pressure from the administration for him to fall on his sword.

Whether or not you believe that Manning's treatment is reasonable, this should trouble you. For a President who claimed he wanted to hear dissent from the people around him, to then force someone out for offering just that kind of dissent suggests someone focusing on remaining in their own bubble, rather than actually listening to concerns of people.


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  1.  
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    Chris Rhodes (profile), Mar 14th, 2011 @ 8:42am

    Well

    Did you honestly expect better from the Bush administration? Wait, you say we've had an election since then?

     

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  2.  
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    The eejit (profile), Mar 14th, 2011 @ 9:01am

    Re: Well

    It appears that you replaced Bush with some kind of sentient AI. Well, either that or a Chicagoan. Can't tell which from over the pond.

     

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  3.  
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    Another User, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 9:02am

    Maybe Obama wants to hear dissent from other people so he knows who to fire.

     

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  4.  
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    Dark Helmet (profile), Mar 14th, 2011 @ 9:05am

    Re: Re: Well

    "It appears that you replaced Bush with some kind of sentient AI. Well, either that or a Chicagoan. Can't tell which from over the pond."

    Chicago politicians ARE especially adept at saying one thing and doing another. Doubly so with regard to pretending to want multiple viewpoints.

    And now Rahm Emanuel is going to be mayor. Sigh....

     

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  5.  
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    Atkray (profile), Mar 14th, 2011 @ 9:09am

    Re: Re: Re: Well

    So at what point is the pizza no longer worth it?

     

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  6.  
    identicon
    daefwan, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 9:15am

    the difference

    between having dissenting voices in a cabinet and presenting a unified administration or far between. his comments appear to damage the administration in public, which is something different from being a dissenting voice. whatever the administration chooses as the voice after hearing all the voices, that voice should be respected. if you disagree enough, you should leave and speak to your heart's content. but part of working in ANY organization is that once the decision is made, you are behind the decision.

     

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  7.  
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    PrometheeFeu (profile), Mar 14th, 2011 @ 9:16am

    Re: Well

    This is different. Under Bush, it would have been a national security issue and Bush would have fired the guy openly. Today, it's an image security issue and so they won't even admit to firing the guy.

    Welcome to Obama's administration. We're just as bad as Bush, but we feel bad about it. We'll also feel bad about lying to you. But it's for the greater good of getting reelected.

     

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  8.  
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    el_segfaulto (profile), Mar 14th, 2011 @ 9:19am

    Re: Re: Well

    Yes we can! Just a tick, that's not the right slogan. I prefer the Who. Meet the new boss...

     

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  9.  
    identicon
    Jes Lookin, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 9:25am

    The Election That Wasn't

    Apparently, the last 'election' was a choice between an old, tired Republican they wanted out of contention and a 'new' Republican out to make a 'change' for whatever the Republicans could get away with and blame the Democrats for.

     

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  10.  
    identicon
    John Doe, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 9:26am

    Re: the difference

    "but part of working in ANY organization is that once the decision is made, you are behind the decision."

    Even if it is the wrong one?

     

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  11.  
    identicon
    Major, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 9:27am

    Leave...

    Leave manning alone !
    Wait, no, that does not sound right...

    Leave manning in solitary confinement !
    Mhhh, still missing something...

    Leave obama's administration in solitary confinement !
    There you go ! That will teach them to accept rampant lobbying and stupid IP protectionnism, Which is the closer you can get of "aiding the enemy" !

    Oh and dont forget to put Obama on "suicide watch" the guy won't survive it otherwise...

     

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  12.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 9:30am

    Should just give it up. Obama lied his ass off to get elected. He's just Bush in a democrat's clothing. Crowley must have been planning to leave anyways. Surely he knew saying something like that would result in him not having a job.

     

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  13.  
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    MrWilson, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 9:34am

    Re: Re: the difference

    Hey, the Nuremberg defense got all those guys off, didn't it?

    Oh yeah... never mind.

     

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  14.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 9:36am

    There's a difference between presenting a dissenting view in private and badmouthing your boss in public. Only an intellectually void person would pretend that those are the same thing. Ahem.

     

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  15.  
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    Dark Helmet (profile), Mar 14th, 2011 @ 9:39am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Well

    "So at what point is the pizza no longer worth it?"

    Hmm, that's pretty tough, actually. I could endure constant latex glove checks if they fed me pizza during it....

     

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  16.  
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    MrWilson, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 9:44am

    Wow. An actual instance in which pointing out that a person has no clothes will get you in trouble with the people in charge.

     

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  17.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 9:52am

    Re:

    So he would have been forced to resign in private?

     

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  18.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 10:04am

    Re:

    Yes, one's personal views should be discussed within the administration before going public. This is simple common sense, unless your goal is to get removed from employment.

     

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  19.  
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    Qritiqal (profile), Mar 14th, 2011 @ 10:14am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Well

    And so shall it be!

     

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  20.  
    identicon
    V, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 10:15am

    Business As Usual

    It's business as usual in the government... Feel free to voice your disent, as long as it agrees with what the government puppetmasters say.

     

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  21.  
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    Jay (profile), Mar 14th, 2011 @ 10:15am

    Re: the difference

    So why do we allow a dictatorship in public office but want a democracy in politics?

     

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  22.  
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    CoCo Was Screwed, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 10:25am

    Let see, this is different than any corporate job because why?

    I encourage any of my team to disagree with me on any decision that I have made, however, it is only appropriate to discuss that differing viewpoint in a closed door meeting. the last thing I need to do is create a conflict within the overall team. If anyone feels the need to call me to the carpet in front of others on my team, they had better prepare for the same.

    Especially if it is one of my senior people, they have an obligation to the organization and to the team to present a consistent message even if they disagree. If they disagree at a substantial level, they are free to find another situation.

     

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  23.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 10:26am

    Re: Re: Well

    > sentient AI

    The Patriots?

     

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  24.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 10:35am

    The wording is all key.

    "admits" is the problem. He didn't admit anything, he expressed his opinion. He stated his own opinion as fact, which is not the case.

    I notice you also left out his opinion that Manning was "in the right place".

    Mike, can you learn the difference between fact and opinion please?

     

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  25.  
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    Richard (profile), Mar 14th, 2011 @ 10:37am

    Re:

    There's a difference between presenting a dissenting view in private and badmouthing your boss in public. Only an intellectually void person would pretend that those are the same thing. Ahem.
    There is a difference between what Crowley said and "badmouthing your boss". Only an integrity-challenged person would attempt to conflate the two.

     

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  26.  
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    coldbrew, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 10:40am

    Re:

    While I agree that is the current practice, and cultural norms are strong in this area, I believe it is a good thing if we move away from this sort of thinking. It shouldn't be forced, but I think those organizations that are capable should be applauded and well-rewarded.

     

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  27.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 10:40am

    Re:

    How is it badmouthing your boss in public when the public is your boss?

     

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  28.  
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    Pixelation, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 10:51am

    This is such a shock.

    My comment from the story on the 11th..."Next up...P.J. Crowley fired, I mean asked to resign."

    Shocker!

     

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  29.  
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    coldbrew, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 10:55am

    Re:

    Here comes the change, EVERYBODY!

     

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  30.  
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    Mike Masnick (profile), Mar 14th, 2011 @ 11:08am

    Re:

    I notice you also left out his opinion that Manning was "in the right place".


    "despite also saying he believed that Manning clearly belonged in jail, and that the leaks were harmful"

    Yup. Can't find anything to criticize me about and just pretend I didn't say something. You amuse me.

     

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  31.  
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    Matt Bennett (profile), Mar 14th, 2011 @ 11:25am

    Mike, you're Liberal, just "admit" it.

    'Cuz you see, there's a mile of difference between a guy "admitting" something, "admitting" something implies there was a fact there, versus that guy stating his opinion about what a series of facts constitute.

    "Admitting" is also Pejorative, and implies something was done wrong. Now that,, right there, is in dispute.

    Cuz the facts here are not in dispute. The military is really pretty open about the exact treatment Manning has received, it's been reported on widely. What's in dispute is what that amounts to. Some people have called it "torture"(Hah!), to others it seems not all that different than normal military prison, which, btw, freaking sucks.

    To me, eh, it looks a little unnecessarily heavy handed, but frankly the military tends to do that. (I got put on "restriction" once.....I might have preferred to sit in a jail cell.)

    Point is, there's nothing to "admit", the facts are neither secret nor in dispute, but the interpretation of those facts is still in debate. By using the pejorative "admit" you saddle the issue with all these accusations--that there are secrets being kept and that military has done wrong--without actually having to say them.

    It's a not so subtle slander attempt, and it really ruins the illusion of non-partisanship you try to convey.

     

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  32.  
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    Matt Bennett (profile), Mar 14th, 2011 @ 11:33am

    Re: Re:

    Mike, I've noticed this pattern of yours a few times. SOmeone calls you out on something, you do sometimes respond.....but only to mock them, never really address the concern.

    Like me, this AC questioned the use of "admit" rather than say "said". You didn't address that.

    Now you did say that Crowley mentioned he should clearly be in jail, indirectly referencing the "in the right place" comment, and so the AC was wrong. But don't you think it would have been better to just point that out, rather being snide, and ignoring his legitimate complaint about "admit"?

     

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  33.  
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    The Original Anonymous Coward (profile), Mar 14th, 2011 @ 11:48am

    What did Crowley "admit"?

    Mike - Please don't turn your excellent blog into another grocery store checkout line newspaper by using outrageous headlines.

    P.J. Crowley didn't "admit" anything. He stated his opinion about Manning's situation and nothing that he said in that story should lead anyone to believe that he has first hand knowledge of how Manning is housed/confined/tortured/etc...

    I agree with you about how the current administration has not lived up to it's earlier promises concerning openness, transparency, diverse views, and so on, so please keep up the good reporting and analysis but don't screw it up with National Enquirer type headlines.

    ps. Check out the latest Charlie Sheen story at the Enquirer. It's a hoot.

     

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  34.  
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    Qritiqal (profile), Mar 14th, 2011 @ 12:16pm

    Re: The Election That Wasn't

    That's not fair! McCain is really a Democrat!

     

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  35.  
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    Matt Bennett (profile), Mar 14th, 2011 @ 12:40pm

    Re: Re: Well

    Hah!

     

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  36.  
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    Matt Bennett (profile), Mar 14th, 2011 @ 12:46pm

    Re: Re:

    No.....there's not. "ridiculous and counterproductive and stupid," These are thing Obama has pretty direct control over. That's badmouthing the boss. Even if he was 100% right, even if Obama agreed with him, or thought he was awesome otherwise, that's mostly going to get you fired.

     

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  37.  
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    Matt Bennett (profile), Mar 14th, 2011 @ 12:46pm

    Re: Re:

    No.....there's not. "ridiculous and counterproductive and stupid," These are thing Obama has pretty direct control over. That's badmouthing the boss. Even if he was 100% right, even if Obama agreed with him, or thought he was awesome otherwise, that's mostly going to get you fired.

     

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  38.  
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    Benjamin (profile), Mar 14th, 2011 @ 1:01pm

    Disappointing

    I very proudly pulled the lever for President Obama, but in doing so, I assumed that I was casting my vote for someone who understood that telling the truth, and doing the moral thing might have consequences, but that those consequences would never be worse than doing the easy-but-unethical thing in secret.

    It seems that I may have gotten the wrong impression. I only wish there were a candidate who wouldn't send us down a vortex of mendacity that could provide a viable alternative. I've never heard a Republican candidate for anything who wouldn't have subjected Manning to the same treatment.

     

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  39.  
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    Mike Masnick (profile), Mar 14th, 2011 @ 1:18pm

    Re:

    Mike, you're Liberal, just "admit" it.


    Wow. When did criticizing a liberal Democratic President make one a liberal? Curious.

    Matt, you seem to have defined "liberal" as someone who disagrees with you.

     

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  40.  
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    Dwayne, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 1:45pm

    Obama..

    President Obama: Same shit, different smell.

     

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  41.  
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    Matt Bennett (profile), Mar 14th, 2011 @ 2:40pm

    Re: Re:

    Well, first of all, you once again refuse to defend the action or comment in question.

    And all sorts of default positions and attitudes have a political spectrum to them.....and two of the clearest is attitude for and against the military, and wikileaks.

    There quite a few issues that pit Liberals against Obama....wikileaks is one of them.

    As far as a "liberal" being someone who disagrees with me......it doesn't hurt.

     

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  42.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 3:58pm

    There is a great deal more going on with this political process than you proles seem to apprehend; pay more attention.

    What are you missing?

     

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  43.  
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    JMT, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 4:41pm

    Re: What did Crowley "admit"?

    "P.J. Crowley didn't "admit" anything."

    The dictionary defines "admit" as allowing or conceding as valid, to acknowledge, to grant in argument. Sounds close enough to me, so I think quibbling over the post's title is maybe missing the big picture.

    "He stated his opinion about Manning's situation and nothing that he said in that story should lead anyone to believe that he has first hand knowledge of how Manning is housed/confined/tortured/etc..."

    Given his (former) position, we might well know exactly what Manning's conditions are, or he might've just read about it in the Washington Post like lots of other people. Does it really matter? Do you think "ridiculous and counter-productive and stupid" is an inaccurate description of Manning's treatment?

     

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  44.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 5:37pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    Mike just enjoys being a dick about things, and at the same time ignoring the obvious error in his own post. See, we can be wrong (and apparently we always are), but he can never be wrong.

    Mike reworded the guys statement, which in turn minimized it's impact. He said that Manning is "in the right place". Not only does that suggest he should be in jail, but that he should be in the jail and conditions he is being held under.

    Mike just really doesn't seem to want to address this, I feel he doesn't want to accept that he once again shaded the truth for the benefit of making the story "better".

     

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  45.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 5:38pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    I'm neither liberal nor conservative, and I still think you're wrong. And a smug ass about it.

     

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  46.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 5:39pm

    Re: Re: What did Crowley "admit"?

    Really, he admitted nothing. He "opined". He expressed his personal opinion, nothing more. An admission would be something that would come officially, as in "The State Department Admits That..."

    Mike once again gets caught shading the truth, and doesn't want to address it.

     

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  47.  
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    vivaelamor (profile), Mar 14th, 2011 @ 6:18pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    "SOmeone calls you out on something, you do sometimes respond.....but only to mock them, never really address the concern."

    Since when is pointing out that someone's wrong 'only mocking' them? Plus, how is it that you call Mike out for being snide, when the original commenter asked Mike to learn the difference between fact and opinion; did you need the extra irony?

     

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  48.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 6:59pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Because in Mike's "mock", he sort of missed the point. He made a vague reference "should be in jail", but the guys actual words "in the right place" are much clearer and more direct: in solitary confinement in jail. Mike got all upset without realizing that even in his mock, he missed the point.

    He didn't answer the other issue either. Crowley expressed his opinion, he didn't "admit" to anything. Mike is trying to paint it like some sort of official statement, which it was not. Why can't Mike address that point? Oh, wait, then he would have to mock himself.

     

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  49.  
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    The Original Anonymous Coward (profile), Mar 14th, 2011 @ 7:23pm

    Re: Re: What did Crowley "admit"?

    I AM quibbling over the post's title because it distracts from the point of the article. From what I understand, Mike wanted to write about a guy who expressed his opinion on a topic and was fired for it. Because of the post's title a good number of people have gone off on tangents about all sorts of other things.

    It bothers me a bit that many writers these days use all sorts of "shocking" headlines to get people to read their articles. I wish that Mike wouldn't do that. I agree with his analysis about 75% of the time but I sometimes have to fight my way past some kind of tabloid headline to get the gist of the article.

    Concerning Mr. Crowley's knowledge of Manning's situation, I seriously doubt that he's been to the military brig and observed the suspect himself. If he had actual first person eyewitness knowledge, I would have thought that he would have stated that in the interview.

    Since I have not been to the brig either, I have no way of knowing if Manning's treatment is "ridiculous and counter-productive and stupid" and I would also be very surprised if anyone who has posted comments to this blog has been there.

     

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  50.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 7:39pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "Not only does that suggest he should be in jail, but that he should be in the jail and conditions he is being held under."

    Wow, TAM, you really are twisting yourself into a knot this time.

     

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  51.  
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    Mike Masnick (profile), Mar 14th, 2011 @ 7:42pm

    Re: Re: Re: What did Crowley "admit"?

    Mike once again gets caught shading the truth, and doesn't want to address it.


    Only one "shading the truth" is you, buddy. But you do it so poorly no one's buying it, other than the few others here who are so desperate to attack me. Fun to watch, but amusing to see how everyone else knows its bunk.

    My post was accurate and I stand by it.

     

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  52.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 7:48pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: What did Crowley "admit"?

    Mike, how come you don't address any of the other issues?

    You don't want to admit you made a couple of good errors on this one?

    I am not "desperate to attack you", it's damn easy to spot when you decide to move the line a little, shade the truth, or downright try to put words in other people's mouths.

    I mean, if you can't accept that the guy expressed his personal opinion (no different from yours), instead of "admitting" something, it's pretty hard to see how anyone can take you seriously.

     

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  53.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 8:18pm

    Re: Re: Re: What did Crowley "admit"?

    I would also be very surprised if anyone who has posted comments to this blog has been there

    Including Mike.

    That is why "admitted" is a reach here. It distracts from the reality of the whole deal:

    This guy, who has a significant official capacity, expressed his opinion in public, and his opinion is the opposite of the "official line" as part of his job. He didn't admit anything, but he did an amazingly good job of undermining his own credibility and as a result, no longer has that job in that official capacity.

    Mike (and many of the other Manning apologists) have been trying to play this as some official statement from the administration, which it is not. There is no "admission", just opinion.

    I do wish Mike would be man enough to admit his error (without attacking me personally to avoid it).

     

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  54.  
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    Jose_X, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 9:53pm

    Re:

    What's next, O'Hare that pays attention and wins a race?

     

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  55.  
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    Jose_X, Mar 14th, 2011 @ 10:52pm

    Re: Re:

    "o hare" plays better than "O'Hare"

    [eg, since it would leave in doubt which "hare" (airport or fast-racing late-comer) is being referenced in the link]

     

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  56.  
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    Mike Masnick (profile), Mar 15th, 2011 @ 12:41am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: What did Crowley "admit"?

    Again. I stand by the title and the story. It is accurate. If I had *any* concerns about it, I would fix it, as I have done many times when I get things wrong. In this case, it's entirely accurate to say he admitted that Manning is being mistreated.

     

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  57.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Mar 15th, 2011 @ 1:12am

    Mistreated how?

     

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  58.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Mar 15th, 2011 @ 1:34am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What did Crowley "admit"?

    It's sad that even after the discussion, you cannot allow for the idea that your choice of words isn't the best, and puts a spin on the story that just isn't there.

    It pretty much sums up your work.

     

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  59.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Mar 15th, 2011 @ 5:42am

    Re:

    OBEY!

     

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  60.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Mar 15th, 2011 @ 5:49am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Why do even bother to read anything on this site?

    You clearly live in an echo chamber of your own delusions. Why not stick to something like Fox News which will say exactly what you want to hear?

    Also, since Crowley had previously stated that Bradley Manning's treatment was appropriate (an opinion) and is now stating otherwise (the opposite opinion), use of the word admit is correct if one assumes that the previous claim was false or not actually his opinion at the time the statement was made. But English can be a difficult language, so I'll forgive your inability to comprehend it.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  61.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Mar 15th, 2011 @ 5:53am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What did Crowley "admit"?

    it's pretty hard to see how anyone can take you seriously.

    Irony alert!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  62.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Mar 15th, 2011 @ 5:55am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What did Crowley "admit"?

    Wow, and I thought the post above deserved an "Irony alert."

    Are you capable of reading your own writing? You've begun to sound like a series of YouTube comments; childish, incomprehensible, devoid of any rational thought.

     

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  63.  
    icon
    Matt Bennett (profile), Mar 15th, 2011 @ 6:07am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I actually sorta agree with AC#2 (ACpost #3, here, and disagreeing with the AC that made post #1&2). I don't think Crowely was agreeing to Manning's treatment (he had just said otherwise), only to him being in jail.

     

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  64.  
    icon
    Matt Bennett (profile), Mar 15th, 2011 @ 6:14am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "I'm neither liberal nor conservative"

    Know thyself.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  65.  
    icon
    Matt Bennett (profile), Mar 15th, 2011 @ 6:18am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What did Crowley "admit"?

    No, mike it isn't. "Admitted" denotes primarily two things. That there was a secret, and that he was revealing a fact. Are you trying to say those two things are true? Cuz I will knock down that assertion quite soundly, if you are.

    I have yet to see you ever admit (no quotes) that you might have shown an inappropriate bias. Just own up to your mistakes, you arrogant bastard, it's not that big a deal, but refusing to either realize it or "admit" it is.

     

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  66.  
    identicon
    JMT, Mar 15th, 2011 @ 6:28am

    Re: Re: Re: What did Crowley "admit"?

    "I AM quibbling over the post's title because it distracts from the point of the article."

    Then you must be easily distracted because I didn't have that problem and neither did most of the other commenters.

    "Concerning Mr. Crowley's knowledge of Manning's situation, I seriously doubt that he's been to the military brig and observed the suspect himself."

    So? Do you think if he had any doubts about the reports of Manning's conditions that he would've stated his "opinion" so vehemently? He's in a much better position than you or I to know the truth. He wasn't pressured to resign because he got the story wrong, it was because he got it right.

     

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  67.  
    identicon
    JMT, Mar 15th, 2011 @ 6:38am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What did Crowley "admit"?

    "Just own up to your mistakes, you arrogant bastard..."

    How about you admit you having serious emotional issues if something like this gets you so worked up you resort to this sort of vile insult. Seriously man, act like an adult or go away.

     

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  68.  
    identicon
    BBT, Mar 15th, 2011 @ 7:15am

    Generally it's a safe bet with Obama...

    "For a President who claimed he wanted to hear dissent from the people around him, to then force someone out for offering just that kind of dissent suggests someone focusing on remaining in their own bubble, rather than actually listening to concerns of people. "

    If Candidate Obama said he was going to do do something, it's a safe bet that President Obama will do the opposite.

    We traded a President who promised he would do terrible things, and then did them, to a President who said he would do good things and then did terrible things anyway. I guess that's progress?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  69.  
    icon
    greg.fenton (profile), Mar 15th, 2011 @ 7:41am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    You believe that there are only two options?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  70.  
    icon
    greg.fenton (profile), Mar 15th, 2011 @ 7:47am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What did Crowley "admit"?

    "Admitted" denotes primarily two things. That there was a secret, and that he was revealing a fact.
    Sorry, I don't see any such requirements when I review the definition of the word "admit". One valid definition is
    to grant in argument; concede: The fact is admitted.
    which neither requires secrecy nor revelation.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  71.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Mar 15th, 2011 @ 8:06am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What did Crowley "admit"?

    to grant in argument; concede: The fact is admitted

    What is funny is you typed it and didn't even understand it.

    The fact is admitted. But it isn't fact, it's his opinion. He admits nothing (because he has no facts to admit), he only has an opinion.

     

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  72.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Mar 15th, 2011 @ 9:14am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What did Crowley "admit"?

    Have you tried looking up the definition of fact?

    Your whole bitchy argument rests on that word and you don't seem to know its many meanings. It isn't an opinion that Bradley Manning is being mistreated; it is a fact. Your lack of objectivity in the matter makes your assertion opinion, whereas, the statements of multiple doctors who have visited him and military personnel who have overseen past prisoners in similar circumstances can be considered an objective fact.

    By your reasoning, there can be no facts except those which you decide based on your own experiences.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  73.  
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    vivaelamor (profile), Mar 15th, 2011 @ 10:10am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "Because in Mike's "mock", he sort of missed the point. He made a vague reference "should be in jail", but the guys actual words "in the right place" are much clearer and more direct"

    Where was that point in the post he replied to? All the original post said was that Mike left out his opinion, not that he didn't use the exact same wording.

    I also notice that you haven't addressed either of my points: you've not explained how he was 'only mocking', but have provided evidence that he was actually making a point (even if you didn't agree with it); and you've not explained why you objected to him being snide despite the original comment being snide.

    I guess we'll have to add another one: why do you require Mike to address every point in a post he replies to, but won't address one point in a post you reply to?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  74.  
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    greg.fenton (profile), Mar 15th, 2011 @ 1:32pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What did Crowley "admit"?

    You didn't address the criticism raised in my comment. You went simply for the attack.

    I argue that (1) it wasn't funny, (2) I do understand it just fine, and (3) your opinion of what is fact vs. what is opinion is, in fact, incorrect or at the very least pure opinion, not fact.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  75.  
    icon
    Qritiqal (profile), Mar 16th, 2011 @ 12:19pm

    Re: The Election That Wasn't

    That's not fair! McCain is really a Democrat!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  76.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Mar 21st, 2011 @ 1:33am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I do know myself, and that is how I know I do not fall into the easy labels you wish everyone to fall to. You do realize there are more than two sides to every issue, right? Your two parties aren't mirror images, they're differently named duplicates. They do not differ so far on the issues as you pretend, and that is making our country weak.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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