Music Is Not A Product, And You'll Never Adapt If You Think It Is
from the lessons-from-the-front dept
About a decade ago, I wrote a long analysis of why digital “goods” were really a “service,” not a “product,” and explained how this was the key to understanding modern business models. I had submitted it to a large publication, who came back and told me that my reasoning made no sense at all and they refused to publish it. It may be true that my reasoning doesn’t make much sense, but it’s nice to see that others are coming to the same conclusion. Hypebot has a nice post from singer/songwriter Jeff Macdougall explaining how music must be viewed as a service, rather than a product, if those in the music industry want to successfully adapt to the changing market:
When a label executive tells you that they are “not in the business of selling discs”, (or vinyl, tape, t-shirts, etc.) and that they are actually “selling music,” they are, at best, fooling themselves, or at worst, lying to your face. Moving plastic, vinyl, paper and/or any other tangible good they can dream up is exactly what the recording industry has been about since it was established.
Sure, the labels spend money and time trying to infuse their products (CDs, posters, etc.) with content (music, album art, etc.) to raise its intrinsic value, but it’s still the CD or poster that they are/were selling… not the music itself.
He goes on to note that music is really an experience, and people should stop focusing on copyright law or the idea that file sharing is “stealing,” and focus on the overall experience and building models based on that.
Of course, he doesn’t quite get into the difference between a service and a product — and it’s one area that people sometimes get confused about, so one way to simplify it is to think of it like this: a product is a single thing created in the past that you now own. A service is paying for something to happen in the future. It’s not a perfect explanation, but in my experience, this simple distinction often gets people thinking creatively about how to turn a business model into one focused on selling a service, rather than a product.
Filed Under: business models, experience, goods, music, products, services
Comments on “Music Is Not A Product, And You'll Never Adapt If You Think It Is”
Grammatical angle
A service is a verb; a product is a noun.
And the revolution is to realise, music is a verb.
Re: Grammatical angle
Hehe, not really.
Re: Re: Grammatical angle
I don’t mean literally :-|.
Re: Re: Re: Grammatical angle
I know 😉
In your opinion
I your article, disagreed with it then, and still do. If you want to think music is a service, go ahead. Treat your own music as a service, and have at it. I’ll continue to treat it as a product, thank you very much.
Re: In your opinion
If you want to think music is a service, go ahead. Treat your own music as a service, and have at it. I’ll continue to treat it as a product, thank you very much.
The fact that music is a service not a product is part of the science of economics like Newton’s laws in physics.
You are at liberty to disagree with Newton’s laws but you would be wrong to do so and if you attempted to use your mistaken opinions as the basis of a design for a mechanical device you would likely end up with a disaster.
In the same way you can disagree with the laws of economics – but if you design an economic device (like a business model) based on that misconception you will end up in trouble – and don’t say we didn’t warn you.
Re: Re: In your opinion
the modern ‘science’ of economics is a load of rubbish anyway. it’s more of an ideology, usually. most of it’s so called laws are complete nonsense based on the desire to make economies work like gravity or electricity, rather than like earthquakes or weather (to which their nature is much closer)
(also, ‘home economics’ is silly, given that the ‘eco’ in economics means ‘home’ anyway.)
sorry, i’ve just been reading up on this and the more i find out about it the more rage inducing the stupid assumptions that have come out of it become :-S
then again, economics probably does have Actual laws, people just haven’t figured them out properly yet… blah.
on a different note, while the music industry may be wrong about whether they’re providing a product or a service, at least that’s better than the software industry, who keep trying to claim to be doing both with the same item, and switching which based on what screwes over the customer/advantages them more…
Re: Re: Re: In your opinion
the modern ‘science’ of economics is a load of rubbish anyway. it’s more of an ideology, usually. most of it’s so called laws are complete nonsense based on the desire to make economies work like gravity or electricity, rather than like earthquakes or weather (to which their nature is much closer)
A bit of a generalisation there. Unfortunately economics has frequently been hijacked for political purposes – and some overblown predictions have been made – but that doesn’t mean that there isn’t some value to be found in it.
Do What you Want
“By choosing to believe, whole-heartedly, that “music is a product” and anyone who hears it without permission (i.e. file sharing, YouTube, hearing it on a radio station or podcast where it hasn’t been sanctioned, etc.) is stealing, you’ve empowered the entire industry to take us all down the drain.”
I’ve been listening to your ilk for ten years whining about this subject. Here’s the thing: you are entirely free to do WHATEVER YOU WANT with your OWN MUSIC. By all means, produce your own music, and give it away, free of charge. Is anyone stopping you from doing this? But please do keep your hands off of my right to distribute my own music as I see fit, including charging a per copy royalty.
Re: Do What you Want
So, if I want to buy a song what’s it cost?
Also, how many times can I play the song that I “bought”?
Do I actually own the song I “purchased” from you (as opposed to the shiny plastic disc) or will you try to sue me if I play it for 150 of my closest friends at a birthday-gala event?
Re: Re: Do What you Want
>>So, if I want to buy a song what’s it cost?
For most commercial music purchases, you do not “buy a song.” You buy a license that grants you certain limited rights with respect to using that instance of the song.
>>Also, how many times can I play the song that I “bought”?
For most commercial music purchases, unlimited numbers of plays.
>>Do I actually own the song I “purchased” from you (as opposed to the shiny plastic disc) or will you try to sue me if I play it for 150 of my closest friends at a birthday-gala event?
No. You do not own the song. You own a license to use the song in a limited way, generally, non-commercial, non-broadcast.
Re: Re: Re: Do What you Want
I didn’t sign a contract, so I don’t have to follow your license rules. Too bad.
Re: Re: Re:2 Do What you Want
The contract is “implicit” when you purchase. Signature is not required. If you don’t like the law, feel free to try to change it.
Re: Re: Re:3 Do What you Want
Feel free? Free ain’t an option!
Re: Re: Re:3 Do What you Want
“The contract is “implicit” when you purchase. Signature is not required. If you don’t like the law, feel free to try to change it.”
I am not provided nor informed about this “Contract” upon purchase, nor does the product direct to such information.
As such, a contract does not imply to me, and I am an uninformed consumer. Remember the ol, “I spilled coffee on me, but didn’t know it was hot” winning lawsuit? Consumers have the benefit of being naive and your “implicit” contract doesn’t spell out a single, damn thing to me. Don’t like it? …Sue me.
Re: Re: Re:4 Do What you Want
Don’t let him confuse you: it’s NOT a contract. Contract law and copyright law are two entirely different things.
Re: Re: Re:5 Do What you Want
I just want to check out some of Bill’s music. Anyone that delusional and/or drug addled has to be making some incredibly awesome notes!
Re: Re: Re:3 Do What you Want
So your licensing is much like the EULA on a video game, you cannot see what the actual licensing conditions are until you purchase the license, and if you disagree you’re up “S” creek because the license is non-refundable?
Also if the license I purchase entitles me to unlimited plays, if my media that holds the licensed content is damaged will you replace the media at no cost?
Re: Re: Re:4 Do What you Want
of course not. because as soon as you try that it’s suddenly a product again.
amusingly, not that it’s ever been tested in court here, if it is not legal to return the software you bought (and that’s the case here) for anything other than another copy of the exact same thing, even if you agree to the EULA, it Should (i’m not a lawyer, never have been, and have never had the time/budget/connections to get this checked out) rate as being signed under duress, if valid at all.
(of course, you also can’t return DVDs for anything but a replacement copy here either… but some places will happily refund you anyway.)
Re: Re: Re:3 Do What you Want
As long as the contract is “implicit,” I’ll go ahead and “follow” it. We could probably throw quotes around “contract” as well. I’ll go ahead and throw quotes around my “respect” for your opinions.
Re: Re: Re:3 Do What you Want
” feel free to try to change it”
what do u think we are talking about then?
Re: Re: Re: Do What you Want
So, they’re not selling music, they’re selling licenses.
Is a license a service or a product?
Re: Re: Re:2 Do What you Want
Neither. A license is grant to use the product in a limited way.
Re: Re: Re:3 Do What you Want
Ah, now you’re saying it’s NOT a product. It took you ten years, but finally you’re opening to new ideas.
Re: Re: Re:4 Do What you Want
? The license is not a product. The music is, of course.
Re: Re: Re:5 Do What you Want
But, you’re not selling the music. You’re selling licenses.
Re: Re: Re:6 Do What you Want
Correct! Not selling music. You never own the song. You have a licensed right to use it in certain ways.
Re: Re: Re:7 Do What you Want
What about public domain music?
Re: Re: Re:7 Do What you Want
So music is not the product, the license is the product.
Re: Re: Re:7 Do What you Want
Correct! And nobody is interested in buying stupid limited “licenses” anymore. And you can’t “sell” music itself as a product, so instead you have to sell it as a service if you want to succeed.
If, instead, you prefer to continue trying to use an obsolete system to sell horrible licenses that nobody wants – well, don’t be surprised when you don’t make much money.
Re: Re: Re:7 Do What you Want
Wrong. You own the song. This isn’t contract law. It’s copyright law. When I buy the shiny plastic disc, I own its contents and can whatever I want with it so long as that is legal. The government decided that if the content on that shiny plastic disc is copyrighted then it automatically restricts me from redistributing it. It does allow me to format shift the content, it allows me to transform the content, it allows me some other fair use rights, but copyright law disallows me from copying it wholesale and redistributing it until the copyright terminates.
The person who sold me the shiny plastic disc (let’s assume they are the copyright holder) can implicitly grant me more rights than that. For example, they can allow me to share it so long as I attribute the work to them. However, if they want to get more restrictive (a non-disclosure agreement for example) then they need to present me with a license.
For example, when I buy a knife, I can do whatever I want with it, but the government won’t allow me vandalize with it. The guy who sold me the knife can be less restrictive. For example he can allow me to scratch up his stuff so long as it is with the knife I bought from him. But if he wants to restrict me further (allow me to only cut bread with it) then he’ll have to get me to sign a contract.
I own the song I buy. Unless I voluntarily signed a more restrictive contract, then I’m only restricted by copyright law.
Re: Re: Re:3 Do What you Want
Not to mince words, but when you say it grants the usage, you mean it provides you the utility of having the ability to listen to that particular song yes? As such, aren’t you saying that it’s an instrument that allows listening to the music? So, irregardless of your stance on music, the license would then be a service that you provide in perpetuity to allow someone to access your song.
Yeah, we do the same thing with software. People who view it as a product really take issue with us not providing free upgrades. The rest recognize that a yearly subscription is a reasonable approach to it.
Re: Re: Re: Do What you Want
But by playing it in your own house, you’re broadcasting it. So, really, you can’t do anything with it. And if Big Media had its way, any plays beyond the first would be commercial use.
So it seems a bit silly now, diesn’t it?
Re: Re: Re:2 Do What you Want
Nope. Playing over a radio station, or an internet feed is considered broadcasting, not playing it in a private residence.
Re: Re: Re:3 Do What you Want
No, really. Because someone Could hear it, it must be broadcasting. That’s what the RIAA, the BPS and the IFPI keep saying. So, unless you’re from Magical Christmas Land, you’re full of crap.
Re: Re: Re:4 Do What you Want
I disagree. If can cite specific regulation and/or case law on that subject that would be appreciated.
Re: Re: Re:5 Do What you Want
well, there’s the british one about the lady who got sued for broadcasting music because she had the radio on where horses could hear it…
and then there was the…hair dresser, i think? again, radio on while she worked, oh, broadcast, sue. can’t remember where that one was, exactly.
those are the classic examples, anyway. (i’m sure someone can give actual links and/or better details on those ones.)
Re: Re: Re:6 Do What you Want
There was also a British police station fined for playing a radio without a license, if memory serves.
Re: Re: Re:6 Do What you Want
Your forgot the collection agencies trying to make it a public performance to have your sound system to loud trying to collect more money from drivers.
Re: Re: Re:3 Do What you Want
How about if I play it loud enough for an entire city to hear? Just because I’m using sound waves instead of radio waves for my broadcast, is it really no longer a broadcast?
Re: Re: Re:4 Do What you Want
That would be construed as a “public performance”, which would violate the terms of commercial music distribution in general. Feel free to try that and let us know how it goes.
Re: Re: Re:5 Do What you Want
apparently so is playing it in the presence of a couple of horses.
Re: Re: Re:3 Do What you Want
“Over the internet” is a broad term, I can set up a webpage with my home computer and have access to my video and music library for my personal use, I can use cyber-lockers to store my multimedia files for personal use and sharing with close friends and relatives.
Are you saying that is illegal?
Re: Re: Re: Do What you Want
No. You do not own the song. You own a license to use the song in a limited way, generally, non-commercial, non-broadcast.
So, Intellectual Property is only to be considered “property” when you own it, and as so as you sell it to someone else it’s only a “license”.
Does anyone else see the problem with referring to Intellectual Property as property or is it just me?
Re: Re: Re:2 Do What you Want
“So, Intellectual Property is only to be considered “property” when you own it, and as so as you sell it to someone else it’s only a “license”.”
Again, you don’t buy the music. You never own the music. You buy the physical medium (e.g, CD) and a license to use the music in limited ways. Don’t like it? Change the law.
Re: Re: Re:3 Do What you Want
Again, you don’t buy the music. You never own the music. You buy the physical medium (e.g, CD) and a license to use the music in limited ways.
Right. That was my point. Intellectual Property is NOT property per se.
Re: Re: Re:4 Do What you Want
It’s not *physical* property. It is *intellectual* property. Duh. With a couple of centuries (in the US) of laws and case law to back it up.
Re: Re: Re:5 Do What you Want
…and those laws and rulings point out on more than one occasion that Intellectual Property is not an analogue of real property and cannot be treated as such.
Re: Re: Re:6 Do What you Want
Too vague. What are you trying to say?
Re: Re: Re:7 Do What you Want
“Too vague. What are you trying to say?”
Bill, I want to check out some of your tasty tunes. Where can I get me some of them (legally, of course!)….
Re: Re: Re:8 Do What you Want
Too bad no one has shared Bill’s music with you in the past. Then you would know if you liked it or not and could purchase more of his music and/or go see him perform his music at a live venue.
Re: Re: Re:8 Do What you Want
I think this is it:
http://www.billlongband.com/index.asp
And let me say Bill, though I disagree with what you say, I will defend to the death your right to be freaking awesome for having rocked out with Dan Castellaneta!
Re: Re: Re:9 Do What you Want
I promise sincerely to take a peek at that site (and hopefully any music samples?) when I get home. I’ve come across plenty of killer music on this site that have been on my side of the debate, and I sure as shit won’t hesitate to give those on the other side a shot as well.
Here’s to hoping I like your music more than your opinions on copyright, Bill the Long!
Re: Re: Re:10 Do What you Want
You are evil if you fund those people.
Re: Re: Re:6 Do What you Want
You and gwiz were debating whether or not you can truly think of Intellectual Property as “property”. You cannot. The courts agree. Common sense agrees.
That’s what I’m trying to say.
Re: Re: Re:5 Do What you Want
Indeed, laws and case law that explicitly state it’s not property but a monopoly, something you said yourself in previous posts.
Re: Re: Re:6 Do What you Want
Intellectual property is a monopoly. Real property is a monopoly too. What’s your point?
Re: Re: Re:7 Do What you Want
There exists no monopoly on the works of Shakespeare.
Re: Re: Re:7 Do What you Want
The defining feature of real ownership is possession (as it has been since the dawn of time); the law only clarifies and systematizes that to make our lives simpler. Economically, real property can be regarded as a monopoly only because of its “uniqueness” (inherent exclusion by possession), not because of the law — and that interpretation is stretching the economic concept of monopolies, as the word “monopoly” is not generally used to define “property”.
Intellectual “property” is a figment created by law that has no actual basis on the natural characteristics of ideas. There is no inherent exclusion by possession, as ideas cannot be owned (as it has been since the dawn of time), and the only way Intellectual “property” can exist is through an artificial monopoly explicitly granted by congress.
I know there are relevant US supreme court rulings that state precisely this. Perhaps an american could cite them for you.
Re: Re: Re:3 Do What you Want
So in other words you completely agree: physical goods are products, and music is a service.
Re: Re: Re:4 Do What you Want
No. Music is a production. And for the sake of IP rights and regulation, it (the song and a particular production of a particular song) are instances of intellectual property. (Live music performance can be viewed as a “service”, the rendition, not the song itself.)
Re: Re: Re:5 Do What you Want
The creation of music is a service, which can then be packaged as a product thanks to copyright.
In a connected world where copyright is virtually unenforceable, clever creators will find ways to sell music as a service, not as a product. That’s the “adapting” part.
That is all there is to this. Adapt or perish.
Re: Re: Re:5 Do What you Want
unfortunately, in this statement you concede that music is indeed a service because a production is an action not a material good, the by-product of this action is a product that can be sold. An action in and of itself cannot be a product, but is instead a service. The product is a medium with the music already loaded on it ready to play. If I hold a copy of the music and can produce another why should I pay for the service of production?
Re: Re: Re: Do What you Want
For most commercial music purchases, you do not “buy a song.” You buy a license that grants you certain limited rights with respect to using that instance of the song.
That makes it a service!
Re: Re: Re:2 Do What you Want
The means of delivery can be a service, such as iTunes, but the product itself is not a service. FedEx is a service. The packages they deliver are not.
Re: Re: Re:3 Do What you Want
If I can’t buy it, it’s not a product. By your very own logic, music is not a product, it’s a service, and the consumer buys an unlimited license to access that service.
Re: Re: Re:4 Do What you Want
Well, let’s see what dictionary.com primary definitions says:
“Product: 1. Something produced by human or mechanical effort or by a natural process.”
“Service: a. Employment in duties or work for another, as for a government:”
The difference here is that a product is an object, whether physical or abstract. A service is not. And whether you can buy something or not is irrelevent. People sell songs all the time. That’s a different matter than licensing. If I write a song, I can sell all of the rights to that song to another party. (And “rights” here is the operative word.)
It’s all about rights. The whiners don’t like the fact that people can create IP and exercise distribution rights over their creations. That’s the bottom line. If you don’t like the laws, you can try to change them. Or use free music only. Or make your own music. Or steal other peoples music. It’s the latter one that feeds the DCMA MPAA machine. Those exist because of IP theft.
Re: Re: Re:5 Do What you Want
Good luck getting consumers to care about any of that.
Re: Re: Re:5 Do What you Want
It’s all about rights. The whiners don’t like the fact that people can create IP and exercise distribution rights over their creations.
Sorry we aren’t whining – we’re trying to offer advice.
The fact is that the “rights” you mention only exist because in the past the equipment necessary for copying was expensive and so could only be justified as part of a commercial enterprise for profit. The owners of the means of copying found it convenient to form a cartel to make their industry more comfortable (by creating barriers to new entrants). Authors (and later musicians) were duped into going along with this arrangement because the publishers allowed a few of them to become very wealthy and the rest were suckered in by the dream.
So long as only the publishers and the (suckered in) creators were affected by this arrangement it could persist indefinitely. However when the means of copying started to become cheap (starting with the tape recorder and the photocopy machine) the general public entered into the equation – and they have never accepted the law and never will. Eventually the law will either be repealed, modified beyond recognition or simply fall into disuse.
The corporations that rely on holding rights are doomed because of their top heavy cost structure – resulting from selling a product (the bit of plastic) that used to be expensive and is now cheap. Sooner or later a new thinking tech company will buy up one of these basket cases and free the old content because it will increase the value of their products. Once that happens it will be difficult to maintain these fictional rights any longer.
Re: Re: Re:5 Do What you Want
Why, after you define what a product is, do you throw that definition out the window in your first statement?
“Product: 1. Something produced by human or mechanical effort or by a natural process.”
“The difference here is that a product is an object, whether physical or abstract.”
You cannot produce something abstract because something abstract is not made through human, mechanical or natural processes. Products can only be physical, the abstract is a service as the abstract can not be produced but rather explained or exemplified through explanation or symbolism.
Re: Re: Re:3 Do What you Want
Exactly FedEx doesn’t sell a product and neither does Itunes. FedEx provides the service of delivering a package to me, they are not selling me the package. Itunes provides the service of delivering music to me, and making it easy to find and a bunch of other stuff, its not selling me the music.
Re: Re: Re: Do What you Want
In that case–I’m not buying. Thanks, but no thanks. I’ll just stream it off youtube or pandora or something for “free.”
Re: Do What you Want
But what happens when more people, when more musicians, start treating (or are already treating) music as a service/experience and not as a product?
What happens when that number is greater than 50% or 60% and keeps climbing each year? At what point does the public (who also treat music as a service/experience and not a product) support those musicians more than others, such as yourself?
How long can you last, as opposed to an unbelievable amount of upstarts?
May we live in interesting times.
Re: Do What you Want
You annoying youngsters with your new distribution channels, your new-fangled baroque music and your ridiculous business models! Do whatever you want, but don’t take away my copyrights, don’t compete with my outdated business practices, don’t complain when the internet is censored because of my obstinacy and unwillingness to get out of my comfort zone, don’t even talk about it! DAMN KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN!!!
Re: Do What you Want
Do as you will, no problem with that.
But stay out of my government, leave my fair use, due process, doctrine of first sale, first, fourth…hell ALL of my amendment rights well alone while you do.
You want to police your copyrights? Go right ahead, but don’t dare expect taxpayers to foot the bill or platform services to haul your freight.
Re: Re: Do What you Want
Then don’t expect the taxpayers to foot the bill for any of your rights either.
Re: Re: Re: Do What you Want
Sorry, Mr Big Content, but *I* am paying for the enforcement of my *own* rights with my *own* taxes.
You are asking the government to enforce *your* monopoly privilege against *other people* with tax money *those people* are paying.
If you want to keep enforcing your privilege, I suggest you pay for it yourself with just your own tax money.
Re: Re: Re:2 Do What you Want
I’m not Mister Big Content, and my monopoly is very small indeed. At any rate, I pay taxes to the government to enforce *all* the rights of everyone (in the USA), including yours. Do you think my rights are less worthy than yours? If so, change the law.
Re: Re: Re:3 Do What you Want
Or break it.
Re: Re: Re:4 Do What you Want
Right. It’s people with that attitude that makes the DMAC and MPAA necessary. Don’t like it? Change it. But don’t be surprised if you get prosecuted for IP theft.
Re: Re: Re:5 Do What you Want
I never will be. Neither are hundreds of millions of people all across the globe.
Re: Re: Re:6 Do What you Want
Are you proud of yourself?
Re: Re: Re:7 Do What you Want
If only copyright didn’t last so long . . . .
Re: Re: Re:7 Do What you Want
Actually, I think pirating music is rather patriotic.
Non-violent protest and all that.
Re: Re: Re:3 Do What you Want
You definitely act like Mister Big Content. You and your monopoly are like Gollum and the ring.
You pay taxes to enforce everybody’s rights, but your taxes are nowhere enough to cover the deadweight loss of enforcing your monopoly privilege.
And yes, my rights > your privilege. At the moment your monopoly is being enforced at the expense of our rights, and because of that we WILL (we MUST!) change the law, you can count on it.
The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.
Re: Re: Re: Do What you Want
Seriously? Did you read AC’s post?
Re: Do What you Want
Ten years and it still hasn’t gotten through.
Amazing.
Re: Re: Do What you Want
Whether it “gets through” to me or not is beside the point, which is right of control of one’s intellectual property, including music. Sure, I may be forced to change my terms of distribution at some point, but it will be my choice. You, and anyone else, has the right to produce your own music and give it away for free right now, today. Why complain that someone else doesn’t want to?
Re: Re: Re: Do What you Want
Because relics like yourself are the excuse some bullies are using to push through things like ACTA, COICA and similar.
Distribute your crappy “product which is only a license and not a product” any way you like, but don’t recruit governments to enforce your antiquated business models at the expense of other people’s rights.
Re: Re: Re:2 Do What you Want
I am pleased when the government enforces my rights. You should be too. If you don’t like the law, try to get it changed. In the mean time, feel free to not buy/steal my crappy product.
Re: Re: Re:3 Do What you Want
Don’t worry, I’m not even mildly interested in your crappy ‘product’, but YOU BET I’ll do everything within my power to reform copyright for the digital age.
Re: Re: Re:4 Do What you Want
Amen
Re: Re: Re:3 Do What you Want
But they’re not YOUR rights. They’re someone else’s. How’s Snow White doing in the public domain? oh, wait: it isn’t. A film from the early 1930s STILL isn’t in the public domain. Public domain is a right,not a privilege.
Re: Re: Re:3 Do What you Want
You do realize that articles and blog posts analyzing the state of the law ARE part of the effort to change those laws, right? So why are you complaining?
Re: Re: Re:4 Do What you Want
Counter efforts. Duh.
Re: Re: Re:5 Do What you Want
Your “counter efforts” are rather weak… instead of defending the law, you are just saying “that’s the law – deal with it or change it”
seems more like an invitation than a counter-effort
Re: Re: Re:5 Do What you Want
But you don’t analyze anything. All you provide is proof that you don’t care about people’s rights, as long as your monopoly privilege is preserved.
Re: Re: Re: Do What you Want
“Sure, I may be forced to change my terms of distribution at some point, but it will be my choice.”
Epic Self Fail Forced, Choice – even you support us
Re: Re: Re: Do What you Want
Why complain?
Because the First Amendment allow it, besides why not?
You are the one going against the grain here, so you hear a lot of complaints what is the problem, you can’t take it?
Re: Do What you Want
And how many times do I have to tell you, you’re entirely free to TRY to lock up your music however you want.
The minute you’ve crossed the line is when you start butchering the legal system to do so.
Presettlement letters? Nope. Hundred thousand dollar fines for minor infringement? Not allowed. Giving a corporate business legal authority? Too bad, not gonna happen. Removing due process? No way in hell. Removal of personal property rights? Go f’ yourself.
I’ve listened to your “ilk” whine and whine for years about how you’re losing out, yet you’ve spent just as much time trampling on rights and freedoms that are worth magnitudes more than your precious “music”.
Re: Re: Do What you Want
Don’t steal music and you won’t have to worry about any of that.
Re: Re: Re: Do What you Want
Did you know that America is not the world?
Re: Re: Re: Do What you Want
Not true at all. Run a music blog where labels send you promo tracks? You have to worry about all that. Make personal backups of your legally bought CDs and DVDs? You have to worry about all that. Produce insanely creative and original music that makes use of unrecognizable samples from other songs? You have to worry about that. Write your own brand new song that, by complete chance, has a few of the same notes as another song? You have to worry about that.
The laws you defend so vehemently DO have negative consequences. You have to accept that. Even if you still feel the laws are necessary and should be enforced, you should acknowledge that they are not perfect and they can interfere with totally legitimate activities.
Re: Re: Re:2 Do What you Want
The laws you defend so vehemently DO have negative consequences. You have to accept that.
I would say these guys have repeatedly demonstrated that they do not in fact accept that. 🙁
Re: Re: Re: Do What you Want
Don’t steal music and you won’t have to worry about any of that.
That’s just dumb. Whether someone infringes copyright (not stealing – but that’s another debate) or not has no relation to being concerned about our legal system being turned into a tool for monopolistic corporations to protect their outdated business models.
Re: Re: Re: Do What you Want
this would be useful if it weren’t utter bullshit.
Re: Re: Re: Do What you Want
I actually live in a country where individuals aren’t sued. In fact, that last people to get sued was the Recording Industry for “stealing” songs of a few thousand artists.
I also don’t pirate music…namely because my play list is tiny, because I’m extremely picky about what I listen to repeatedly. Of course, if it wasn’t for YouTube, I probably wouldn’t buy music at all.
I also work in an industry that whines about piracy as much as you do…and I’d still side with the pirates every day of the week.
Re: Re: Re: Do What you Want
I told you already don’t worry not even pirates want your music anymore.
Re: Do What you Want
You forgot the very next line from the article which also needs to be considered:
And while copyright law has been pushed and stretched over the years to legally say that such an act is indeed “theft”, no right-minded consumer is going to buy into that load of crap. Ever. (bold emphasis mine)
Re: Do What you Want
I agree that you both should be able to do as you wish under the current law. The problem is that too many content owners (I say owners, not creators because the creators are being ripped off too) are lobbying for NEW laws that have additional limits.
Re: Do What you Want
you are entirely free to do WHATEVER YOU WANT with your OWN MUSIC
And here you assume that music can be owned. It can’t. You can own the CD that it resides on, and you can own the hard drive that stores it, but the music itself isn’t property subject to ownership. In fact, your so called “intellectual property” (a phrase which, mind you, is completely absent from the very document that allows the government to grant you a monopoly by force) violates my very real property rights.
It’s my hard drive; I’ll twiddle the bits on it as I please. You can whine and cry and try to send the government in with guns to stop people from twiddling the bits on their hard drives in a manner that you object to, but it won’t make any difference; people across the globe will continue to assert their real property rights in the face of your imaginary ones, and you will lose, like every petty tyrant eventually loses in the end.
Enjoy your descent into irrelevancy.
Re: Do What you Want
actually, some places the local RIA-analog will quite happily take you to court over doing such things, if previous articles are anything to go by.
Re: Re: Do What you Want
or, more likely, your customers. (edit buttons would be nice, even time limited ones :S
Re: Do What you Want
But please do keep your hands off of my right to distribute my own music as I see fit, including charging a per copy royalty.
As you wish.
However, if it’s your insistence for your music to not be heard, I would recommend not releasing it in the first place. It would stop that whole “piracy” problem in its tracks.
Seriously, you must have an extremely high opinion of your abilities to think that anyone will be willing to pay for the “privilege” of listening to your music when they can obtain music for free elsewhere…and legally, no less.
Re: Do What you Want
Don’t worry, there are very strong signs that people are moving away from your “product” and into others “services” 🙂
Which you will have to fallow if you want to make any money at all in the no so distant future.
Re: Do What you Want
So, you did it! You guys invented what has been dreamed for ages! You, and a few other chosen ones realized mankind’s greatest wish, the physically impossible!
You created a perpetuum mobile!!!
Isn’t it just perfect?! You only had to put some finite amount of work into it (your music) and now it will reward you infinitely!
How unfortunate that most of us are not blessed with such gifts… But maybe now you might understand why some of us really think that (to quote some of your famous mates, hoping not to be sued…) you get money for nothing and your chicks for free
A good day to you.
Re: Re: Example
To further expand on this concept, 2 code examples:
model 1 (us):
10 produce something
20 get paid
30 goto 10
model 2 (you):
10 produce something
20 get paid
30 goto 20
I’d say most people bound to model 1 would deem model 2 as… unfair.
Re: Do What you Want
You’ve been listening… but I guess you really haven’t heard anything. The decline in sales over the last 10 years you speak of make my point for me.
Also, I never brought up copyright. I don’t want to take away your control of your own music, I want you to at least consider that looking at things differently, you may have more success.
You have my permission to continue to distribute your music as a product and charge per copy.
How’s that workin’ out for you, anyway?
The music industry knows that they aren’t in the business of selling shiny plastic discs. Unlike some people here, they aren’t caught up or blinded by the “delivery”. They are in the business of producing a product, music.
It isn’t a service. The service would be “delivery of music on the internet”. Itunes is a service, the product they sell is music.
Pandora is a service. The product they provide is music.
Playing word games is amusing, but meaningless.
Re: Re:
Kind of like intellectual property laws.
Re: Re:
Pandora is a company. The service they provide is music.
Re: Re: Re:
Remind me all the music that Pandora has made themselves. Answer, none. They provide a delivery service for music. It could also be a delivery service for voice blogs. It is only a service. The content they deliver is the product.
The only way you fall for this one is if you are swimming in the Kool aid vat.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
I like music. Specifically live music performed by musicians. I pay a cover at a bar or for a concert ticket. The music streamed by Pandora is a service (advertising) for the musician so I’ll go and pay them for their product. Anything else is a reproduction of their art and not the true product.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Pandora doesn’t provide music.
Pandora provides a service that is a stream of high and low bits that is utilized by my computer to send an electrical signal to the speakers connected to said computer which in turn use that signal on magnets attached to cones which are vibrated at specific frequencies specified by the signal to recreate sound that approximately matches an original recording made at a point in the past by a musician.
But they do NOT provide music.
Re: Re:
product (noun) – an article or substance that is manufactured or refined for sale
service (noun) – work done for a customer other than manufacturing
It’s not word-games, it’s correct word usage.
Re: Re:
The recording industry on the other hand is on the business of selling plastic discs that nobody wants anymore, they sell T-Shirts basically and are sinking LoL
Rule #14
Do not argue with trolls – It means that they win.
I play my music very loud while driving in my car. Am I now considered to be broadcasting?
Re: Re:
apparently :S
Radio Paradise and Rhapsody
iTunes has effectively set up a model to sell digital music content like Amazon sells digital written content.
Radio Paradise (and other web radios) offer music as a service.
Rhapsody offers music by subscription.
The non-purchase models exist but iTunes has the lion share of the market dollar wise if not quantity wise (each Rhapsody subscriber has access to over 3 million tracks so a much wider variety of music than they could purchase).
So I guess the author is correct if one looks at iTunes as a digital music download service.
Re: Radio Paradise and Rhapsody
You are correct in that iTunes is a delivery service for the product (music.) Licensing is similar to physical medium purchase. Limited rights of usage. You never “own” the song. You own the right to use it in limited ways.
Re: Re: Radio Paradise and Rhapsody
You keep contradicting yourself. If music is a product, I can own it. If I can’t own it, it’s not a product.
I don’t see why you think you can have it both ways.
Re: Re: Re: Radio Paradise and Rhapsody
Generally, an instance/rendition of a piece of music is a product that is licensed and not sold. The definition of “product” has absolutely nothing to do with who owns it or how it is sold and/or licensed.
Re: Re: Re:2 Radio Paradise and Rhapsody
Yeah but what is really at issue here is business models – and if you want to succeed in business, you need to identify what you are selling and why people want it. And as far as the way successful consumer transactions work in the music industry now, music is a service.
So believe that music is a “product” all you want. I’m sure there are plenty of semantic arguments as to why. But it won’t get you very far in the marketplace.
Re: Re: Re:2 Radio Paradise and Rhapsody
When does this “license” expire?
Re: Re: Re:3 Radio Paradise and Rhapsody
And what does it say? I’ve never been presented with one.
Re: Re: Radio Paradise and Rhapsody
You are correct in that iTunes is a delivery service for the product (music.)
Um.. no. iTunes is a delivery service for DIGITAL FILES, which may contain music (or movies or games). The music itself is absolutely MEANINGLESS without some sort of container for delivery. That container is the product. Music in and of itself is not a product (and I say that as a semi-professional musician).
Re: Re: Radio Paradise and Rhapsody
You’re completely wrong of course. Music is not a product, it’s a small blue hamster that sits in the spaces between 1 moment and the next and broadcasts its sounds into people’s brains. The hamster has his (or her) own rights and is very very cross with you not allowing him to communicate.
putting copyright on some sounds lol
and they want me to take them seriously?
soon they will want to copyright words. So you wont be able to talk anymore unless you pay.
Sheesh, bill long is ....
DEFINITELY in the pay of the RIAA.
Because I can say, I’VE never heard of his “music”.
If it’s anything like his rants here…that would explain why.
And I’d love to know what a DMAC is, lol
The MPAA isn’t necessary.
It’s just another union, lol.
And, I know it been said here before…but I see NO reason I should HAVE to buy another copy of the music I ALREADY bought, just because I want to have it in the formats that are now being used.
It should NOT be illegal for me to convert my LP’s to cd, or mp3 files to use in my mp3 player
But people like him want to make it to where I go to JAIL for doing that?
He can bite my round, red. rosy one. 😀
Bill Long does make a good point – if we don’t like it, change the law. But I think Mike’s point is a stepping stone to that. If we want to change the law, one of the main methods is a policy argument, which is exactly what Mike is making. We can’t blame Bill Long for trying to enforce rights Bill CURRENTLY has under the legal regime in the US. Bill isn?t my problem. He seems like a balanced guy (though I don?t agree with him personally).
He is looking out for his best interest, as he should. I blame the politicians when they only listen to one side. So it is my responsibility to make sure my side is at least heard.
Re: Re:
Which is why Bill Long and people like him are trying to change the law to make copyright rules even crazier…
Somehow Bill seems to think that people are telling him to do. He is free to run his business any way he wants. He can hold on to his business model as long as he wants. No one, here at least, buys the old excuse that there’s no way to compete/make money without curtailing people’s rights even more online.
It’s kind of becoming an old record.
I purchased a mug. It was kinda cool, had this water-sloshy stuff on the inside, and when I put ice in, it would get kinda frosty ….
I drank so many Pepsi’s out of that thing…..it never left my side.
I did lend it to my Grandma once, she thought the rim was too wide for her mouth.
I wanted to take it to the park one day, so I wrote my name on the bottom of it, so no one would steal it.
I accidentally left it at mom’s for a month. Her neighbors that came over for poker every week always used it for holding sunflower seed shells. She finally mailed it back to me when one of her neighbors kids took it out back and used it for building sand castles.
If song = product then why are we even having discussions about fair use. I don’t see the mug manufacturer coming after me to pay for loaning it to grandma, or fining me for putting my name on it, or even suing the neighbor kid for using it to build a sand castle.
Re: Re:
You can loan your music to grandma if you like – but only if you relinquish all control over it, in the same manner that would do with the mug. That means no copies on your computer, on your ipod, whatever. If you lend it, you lend all of it.
Most people aren’t able to do that.
Re: Re: Re:
So it makes perfect sense to demonize the people. It is, after all, their fault.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Exactly. It ISN?T their fault. Various content owners decided to break the ability of a consumer to transfer digital content. If I download a movie to my laptop from a legitimate source, there should be a mechanism for transferring that movie to someone else, like grandma, so she can watch it and give it back to (and it should be a method that doesn?t involve me lending my entire laptop). But these content owners took away that power because they aren’t interested in given consumers choice – quite the opposite – they seem to hate libraries and sharing and such.
Information
Music is information. The only way to sell information is to communicate it. However, once it’s been communicated it becomes infinitely replicable. So, you can either try to sell this infinitely replicable information as you would a physical object using contrived procedures in an impossible attempt to defy the law’s of nature or you can sell it as a service. Which seems more reasonable?
I just want to pop in outside of all the threads here and say BILL LONG YOU ARE HILARIOUS! I’m not sure I’ve ever seen everyone run in so many semantic circles over a single word on Techdirt before.
It’s a product! No, it’s a service! No, it’s a license! No, you license the product but the license is not a product, but you sell the license through a service, which is not a product, which you sell licenses to as a product, to provide a service to access the licensed product that is the music!
…or something like that
Re: you forgot
It’s the law!
Re: Re: you forgot
Only in some countries. Funny how that works.
Re: Re:
mmm. he may well be setting records, indeed.
The defining feature of real ownership is possession (as it has been since the dawn of time); the law only clarifies and systematizes that to make our lives simpler. Economically, real property can be regarded as a monopoly only because of its “uniqueness” (inherent exclusion by possession), not because of the law — and that interpretation is stretching the economic concept of monopolies, as the word “monopoly” is not generally used to define “property”.
Intellectual “property” is a figment created by law that has no actual basis on the natural characteristics of ideas. There is no inherent exclusion by possession, as ideas cannot be owned (as it has been since the dawn of time), and the only way Intellectual “property” can exist is through an artificial monopoly explicitly granted by congress.
Indeed – because the memory of a song, in a person’s head will remain – regardless of laws.
Isn’t that – really the same thing? It’s data, just in a different format – technically, right?
If – hypothetically – that could be done away with, advertising would suddenly become the one’s suing – since no one would remember the product after the ‘rights’ to the ‘idea’ is removed from their head.
It would be *impossible* to maintain this ‘law’ as this kind of level.
Are they to ban the sound waves from traveling out of a person’s car if they are next to me?
Or from a bar I walk past?
Or a music store I walk past?
Wouldn’t that all be ‘infringement’ with this same concept?
Trying to enforce that would either be an exercise in futility or sheer insanity, really both.
If not for ‘free music’ on the radio – you know.. the music industry wouldn’t even exist, as it were. Radio has always been the *core* advertising for music.
How many have bought songs that they have never heard? In the case of a ‘favorite artist’ – sure sometimes, and even the random purchase – but does that contribute to the *majority* of sales? Of course not. But that’s what they are seemingly claiming.
So.. to all this – *why* does ‘free music’ exist on radio?
Sure maybe the station paid for the ‘rights’ – but how many of the listeners did?
dear bill long
Look at it like this Bill. Itunes doesn’t sell a product it sells a service. I am not buying a song from itunes, if I just wanted a song I could find it for free, what I buy from itunes is convience. It allows me to easily find and download a song I want and a I know that song will be of a certain level of quality. The song is free, if you like it or not, and if I put in a little effort I could have it for free. But I don’t always know what I’m getting when I go the free route. I could spend time and download something of horrible quality, a non complete version of the song, a virus, or something else entirely and then I have to spend more time trying to get what I wanted. Or I pay a small free to be provided the song I want as the artist ment for it to be heard with minimal effort on my part. The same for pandora the music isn’t their product the service they provide is, i.e. playing songs I like and introducing me to other songs like it that I may enjoy.
So consider this bill instead of trying to convince us of your right to sell something I can have for free you could have linked to a free streaming version of 1 or 2 of your songs and if I like them I could buy them from you. That is if you provide me with a way to access them that is convient, the service. Hey I might even like it so much I tell all my friends and they buy some and we all come see you next time your in chicago. So you could have used your time to increase you fan base instead of push people away from you. I’m sure DH will give up when he sees you have no samples on your webpage cause your trying to horde your music cause you still think that is your product. So instead of having more possible fans you have nothing.
If you really must insist that you have a product it wouldn’t be your music. Your product is you, or your band, the music is an advertisment. You have to sell me you, I have to like you to want to give you money. And your service just doesn’t have to be provideing access it could be a number of things, like explaining your artisic process, an inside look at making your album, a funny blog. If you can’t provide access to the music provide some kind of service that alows me to connect to you because you are really what you have to sell.
That’s what the article wants you to think about its not trying to argue semantics.
Sorry for any bad grammer ect I’m writing this on my phone on the train home.
Good luck out there dinosaur.
Pirate half-wits indeed. You losers have outdone yourselves in this thread. Congrats.
Re: Re:
You sound like a broken recording industry.
Music as a product, huh?
I can see it now:
(goes back to store after accidentally buying a hair metal album)
“Excuse me, can I have a refund? I think this music expired at least 20 years ago.”
Music is a SERVICE
Nit picking aside, as well your legal semantics.
Bare facts, when weighing it up product versus service.
Its obvious that music is a service, as is a therapy that soothes countless millions in their daily lives. Music is becoming more and more a service everyday, facilitated by technology …whether you think it disruptive or not.
The emotional value is not easily quantifiable.
In fact, some days it effectiveness may even be disputed. But no one can dispute that it is a service, not some product or pill to ease life’s woes.
However, where it gets BITTER and hard to swallow, is when LARGE CORPORATE concerns try to make a HUMAN ARTIST into a commodity and product. This reduces the value of HUMAN LIFE and an artist who shares HIS or HER Life’s journey. This SERVICE was intended to change others lives and make the world more palatable and HUMAN.
Labels however, turn it into a commodity by using it to sell other products, therefore making the whole matter somewhat grey. This in turn has made it about business and money, and then enters the legal dispute.
It would be a perfect world if they were taken out of the equation. Though life is not made simple by business, because its territorial by nature.
In a world where music is used in cross pollinating marketing strategies and psychological manipulation, its no wonder a thing of beauty has become UGLY.
Legalism & Politics aside, what needs to be worked out is how artists are to derive an income in a hostile world of business that treats them routinely as some rape and pillage expedition. It would seem no one has ever made discerning efforts to create a SAFE WORK ENVIRONMENT where artists can work without being EXPLOITED.
Musicians need to stop being apathetic, complacent and lazy about their work place and enforce their rights against exploitation. Those in international governance need to stop supporting BAD CORPORATE CITIZENS as too their nations. Stop the rot of sovereign laws and the abuse of humans. They are NOT a product.
Any record label who thinks there doing some artist a favor by granting him/ her 5-10% of GROSS SALES. When the FINE print suggests in the subject to clauses, that you have no hope in hell of ever getting out of debt. And… the fees they charge artists for THEIR services to MAKE THEMSELVES LUDICROUS AMOUNTS OF MONEY is deemed to be nothing but EXTORTION. Oh by the way, you can’t shop for another quote either. Tough break OUCH!
Labels need to get a whiff of reality and need to get back to serving the artist and developing talent. Not serving themselves and their interests at the cost of humanity.
If they can’t find a better more equitable way of SERVING ARTISTS and THEIR customers, then I do hope TECHNOLOGY puts an end to your BLOOD SUCKING ways.
Good riddance to obsolete rubbish.
Yes its about the LICENCE
Well licence indeed.
At the rates of renumeration compensated the artist, they should never own the music. Indeed initially thats what was meant to have happened. The abuse started with artist, but then was extended to the customers.
So, I have some music and I say, “Mr. Record company exec
I will licence my music for you to exploit for the next 3 YEARS and I get at LEAST 10% NET [ not that I would stoop so low ]. After which the musics rights reverts totally to me.”
Kind of fair, sort of.
But eventually the Mr Record Company Exec said, “This musician’s a bozzo and such a lap dog.” And said, “You’ll be lucky to have paid me back the pittance of a loan I give you in the next 3 years and I’ll exploit you forever and the music’s ours.” And … the artist goes and sign’s such contracts.
Today all musicians are treated like bozo’s because people are weak and never stand up to the slave masters and say “NO MASTER I AINT BAILING SH*T, YOU CRACK THAT WHIP ALL YOU LIKE, YOU WANT MUSIC YOU MAKE IT YOURSELF”
If the law allows such treatment of artists, much less will the customer receive.
I’ll just say this, today the music that is generally speaking a “product” to me, is the disposable stuff that some guys knocks up having fun. It comes it goes it made you smile, but now its gone. Little effort in, “damn it was a hoot and we made a little money.” Great! But it hasn’t got any longevity in the market place and rarely will it be played in years to come.
Disposable music = PRODUCT.
I don’t like this, but its a part of the scene unfortunately.
Music as a service which is the future.
Is made by an artist who bled his heart and soul into his craft, suffered and made vulnerable by sharing his life and with fame, and became a prisoner in his own home and to an image. In the process changed lives and the world and shared what it was like to be human again. This will be heard under subscription and shared with millions globally everyday and as many times as they like.
To quote Marin Luther King, “I’ve SEEN THE PROMISED LAND!”
To see how Big Labels have treated the latter is abhorrent to me and that such people exist with no conscious is a monumental aberration on the record of human history. That such activity should be protected like some animal on the verge of extinction is morally sick and reprehensible.
If the LAW allows them to treat artists with such contempt, what of their customers? Seems a little lopsided huh? No its not money that’s the root of all evil, its peoples intent. And it would seem the intent of BIG LABELS is disingenuous to say the least.
With respect to governance, maybe you need to change the LAW, or throw them out?
Hmmm just a thought
Small blue hamsters aside, it occurred to me reading the comments that in fact music is neither a service nor a product. Music is an Idea. It’s intangible even when expressed because it doesn’t matter what physical medium it’s contained on or how it got there, the music itself exists between whatever is causing the vibrations, your ear and your brain.
You can argue about the container or the method of delivery all you want as product or service because it can be both or neither depending on the how but the music itself is still just an idea that is transferred and copied from one person to another. Look at it that way and it doesn’t really make much sense to argue that another method of transfer of an idea already transferred is somehow not allowed. Once you’ve shared an idea the people you shared it with possess that idea too.
Sony is not going away?
That is not what the news says about the state of affairs inside that company.
Quote:
Source:
Can Doug Morris Bring Stability To Sony? (By Ed Christman, New York, March 02, 2011)
Music as a service Hyden and Handel
Haydn was an employe of the Esterh?zy family until the death of the prince and being pensioned off by his successor he provided a service. After being pensioned he was able to go to London and conduct a series f concerts (again service) which were popular and lucrative.
Mozart was an employee of the Archbishop of Salzburg who at one time jailed him for wanting to leave. Finally he became such a pain that while he was in Vieana the Archbishop fired him. He then pursued a lucrative carrier as a concert pianist and composer give numerous symphony concerts of his works (again service).
Handel was employed by George II and was told to compose music for the Royal Fireworks. He was allowed to conduct a public rehearsal prior to the Fireworks and charged 2 shillings 6p (about equivalent to today’s $100/ticket) again a service.
Let me get this straight. I buy the song but you own it?