David Guetta: The Way To Beat 'Piracy' Is To Give Your Music Away Free

from the more-people-figuring-it-out dept

Award-winning musician/DJ/producer David Guetta seems to have figured out that "free" is not a bad thing. In a recent interview, he notes that he's never worried about "piracy" at all, and that the solution is just to give away stuff for free to keep an audience engaged and to offer more opportunities to continue to build your fan base:
"I have never been very nervous about online pir­acy," the Daily Star quotes him as saying.

"Sometimes you have to give away content, even if it isn't bringing you money. It doesn't have to be music, it can be videos, images and so on."
Plenty of others have made this realization as well, but it's nice to see stars with as big a name as Guetta saying it publicly as well.


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  1. This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
     
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 2:37am

    ... and the way to stop rape is to agree to have sex with every stranger

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 2:37am

    ... and the way to stop rape is to agree to have sex with every stranger

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  3.  
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    PaulT (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 2:43am

    Re:

    It's telling, but unfortunately not surprising, that one of the resident moron ACs here would make that comparison...

     

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  4.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 2:43am

    As a dj/producer, albeit not necessarily a huge guetta fan anymore, its a slightly different world for these types of people. nearly all of their music is written/produced/performed/etc by 1 person. No one really needs to be hired for studio work if you just have a decent enough computer on hand. Promotions are almost self-propelled. But you are right with your usual points: the shows are the primary source of revenue/fame/advertisement. Labels are often self-launched since the dj is a solo marketing machine and solo musician.

    DJs and electronic musicians don't (usually) care about piracy or song sales because of, again, the shows. Lots of people who've never paid for a single song from an edm producer will pay the 10-40 dollars for their show because they've heard a free mix or seen photos of previous shows.

     

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  5.  
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    The eejit (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 2:53am

    Re:

    Wow, comflating a civil action activity with rape now? How imaginative.

     

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  6.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 3:39am

    Re:

    Or do what open-source do, they don't care LoL

    3DMagix and IllusionMage, scam or open source leeches?

    Quote:
    But what can we do? Not much really... lawyers will be a waste of money on this. Best is as usual to just publicize this well. "Sunlight is the best disinfectant" as a U.S. Supreme Court judge once said.

    Ton Roosendaal
    Chairman Blender Foundation

     

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  7.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Poster, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 3:40am

    Re:

    You are a disgusting human being for even thinking that comparison was not only relevant, but intelligent.

    Glenn Beck, is that you?

     

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  8.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 3:47am

    Re:

    I'd like to nominate this as most stupid comment of the week. And it's only Monday!

     

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  9.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 3:56am

    I'm not the biggest fan of Guetta myself, but it shows that if people think you are good/talented file sharing can be a fantastic vehicle for promotion.

    If only the big players in the Music Industry realised this and stopped trying to maximise profits by churning out crap, auto-tuned, one-hit-wonder artists/bands.

     

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  10.  
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    Richard (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 4:03am

    Re:

    and the way to stop being called out as an idiot is to stop making stupid comments.

     

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  11.  
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    Richard (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 4:05am

    Re:

    ... and the way to stop rape is to agree to have sex with every stranger

    the day that it becomes possible to be raped by someone 5000 miles away without even being aware that it has happened is the day when that comment will become sensible.

     

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  12.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 4:22am

    Re: Re:

    Why don't we have a most stupid comment nomination button? We can post it on a wall of shame sorta thread every week, perhaps within all the most insightful and funny comments thread.

    Then TAM et al can call us immature for pointing out their immaturity and stupidity.

     

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  13.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 4:30am

    Re:

    but who ends up getting all the copy protection privileges (and government imposed monopolies over radio broadcasting spectra and cableco infrastructure to distribute content that only they have copy protection privileges on) isn't the artist, it's the collection societies and big corporations.

    Not to mention they deter small venues like restaurants from having independent artists/musicians perform, by demanding money from them or threatening them face a potentially expensive lawsuit if they don't pay up, under the pretext that someone might infringe. In the end, the artist (and the public) loses.

     

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  14.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 4:30am

    Re: Re:

    Why stop? The collective outrage of techdirt hamsters caused by challenging their received wisdom is just too amusing.

     

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  15.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 4:31am

    Re: Re:

    threatening them to face *

     

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  16.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 4:42am

    For crying out loud Masnick,
    every single scenario you suggest works just fine for talented people, that the public want to support.
    But not one single scenario you put forward where free can be used to promote sales will work for talentless hacks that the public cannot stand.

    When and only when you can present a strategy of "free" that will benefit the pointless and the useless will you have a model that can successfully replace the traditional role of labels and studios.

     

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  17.  
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    Gabriel Tane (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 4:58am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Well, at least you're honest at being a troll. Glad it gives you amusement to be a horrible human being.

     

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  18.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 5:06am

    Re:

    It works to, just look at the front page of Youtube those dudes are probably making 6 figures doing unbelievable s--- and I do mean s--- as in bad.

    Or you think Fred is cool?

    And here is a lady who quit her day job because her blog was so successful.

    Hyperbole And A Half

    For crying out loud TAM get a grip, buy some glasses and look around you once in a while.

     

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  19.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 5:10am

    Did anyone notice the new movies in Youtube?

    Ultraviolet

    Of course only available in the U.S.A..

    I only see this because the proxy I'm using was locate in the U.S., where is that dude saying that Youtube had only LoLCats?

     

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  20.  
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    Marcel de Jong (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 5:18am

    Re:

    ... and the way to stop looking stupid is to stop talking now, Anonymous Coward.

     

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  21.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 5:19am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I am sorry if people having critical thinking facility horrify you.

     

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  22.  
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    Marcel de Jong (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 5:22am

    Re:

    +1 for being awesome. :)

     

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  23.  
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    Marcel de Jong (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 5:23am

    Re: Re:

    I don't think this is TAM. After all, he's calling acts backed by the big labels "talentless hacks".

     

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  24.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 5:24am

    Music on Youtube have a lot of schmucks putting things for free there like P!NK - F--kin' Perfect and she works for the record companies wow!

    Oh wait all big labels have their artists there on Youtube, WTF!

    Kicking and screaming they need to give it out anyways is that irony or what?

     

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  25.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 5:26am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Sorry, I didn't mean to say it was that one TAM but a generic TAM like person.

    Next time I will put GTAM(Generic TAM)

     

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  26.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 5:30am

    Re:

    Quote
    When and only when you can present a strategy of "free" that will benefit the pointless and the useless will you have a model that can successfully replace the traditional role of labels and studios.


    Like Youtube Music?

    All big labels are there, why do artists need the labels to put them on Youtube again?

     

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  27.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 5:36am

    Sometimes you have to give away content

    This is the key phrase in all of this. He didn't for a moment suggest you always have to give away content. He understands the value of a promotional video, some promos copies, etc.

    You also have to remember that he comes from the DJ / Remox universe, where they have spent their formative years working with other people's material, often without permission. It sort of changes the view.

    The funniest part of all of this is that this guy makes most of his money producing music for other people (even is "albums" are a bunch of other artists performing the songs he writes). Most of the acts (actually it appear all of them) are label artists. Perhaps this puts him in the position where he can make some of his stuff free, because other people are paying wildly high for his services as producer rather than DJ.

    If it's his choice to make things available for free, more power to him. If it's a "fan" making that choice for him, that is disrespectful.

     

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  28.  
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    velox (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 5:37am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Single sentence ad hominem shots don't qualify as critical thinking.

     

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  29.  
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    bob, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 5:37am

    Re: Re:

    If you want to work for free, fine. Work for free. It's one way to defeat piracy that's for sure. But it's not a way to earn enough money to buy a house or own a car or live a normal life. This kind of attitude forces artists to get day jobs and work in factories.

     

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  30.  
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    bob, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 5:40am

    Re:

    I can't wait for a starving artist to come to him and ask him to donate his producing services for free. Just toss his own words back at him.

     

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  31.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 5:43am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Hi TAMBob !!

     

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  32.  
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    Richard (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 5:50am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I am sorry if people having critical thinking facility horrify you.
    They don't. You do.

     

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  33.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 5:52am

    Re: Re: Re:

    http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/index.php/archives/2011/02/06/deadmau5/

    Tiesto/David Guetta

    8/14/10 Hallenstadion, Zurich
    1 show
    Sold out
    14,500 tickets sold
    Average ticket price: $84.38
    Gross: $1,223,520

    Total chump change.

     

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  34.  
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    Josef Anvil (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 5:52am

    Re: Wow

    Thought the rape comment was pretty silly, but this guy continues to impress.

    "When and only when you can present a strategy of "free" that will benefit the pointless and the useless will you have a model that can successfully replace the traditional role of labels and studios."

    So that means that labels exist to benefit the pointless and useless. If nothing else, this AC gets an A for effort when it comes to comedy.

    The industry can keep complaining about piracy, but the game has changed and if the industry doesn't accept that, new and more nimble players will emerge and become dominant. It's really that simple.

     

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  35.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 5:57am

    Re: Re:

    The starving artist has to work for free too, otherwise they're just being hypocritical.

     

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  36.  
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    Shon Gale (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 5:58am

    Who the hell is David Guetta???? Stars as big as David? What have you been smoking? I never even heard of him. Maybe he should get a professional publicist. Someone will know who he is then. It is a he right?

     

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  37.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 6:03am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    You performance in this thread suggests otherwise.

     

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  38.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 6:07am

    One size doesn't fit all. If he wants to give it away, and that works for him, then great. If others don't want to give it away, and that works for them, then great. Just because giving it away works for one person doesn't mean we need to take other people's ability to not give it away.

    Choice. It's a good thing. Taking away other people's choice. Not a good thing.

     

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  39.  
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    Richard (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 6:12am

    Re: Re:

    You obviously don't get it do you.
    The point is that what you can charge for anything is the marginal cost plus a proportionate margin (usually 5%-50%). That margin can be used to offset the upfront costs. The marginal cost of his producing services is substantial (his time plus equipment etc) so it cannot generally be given away.

    However the marginal cost of making a copy is near zero (and likely to be borne by the consumer). Therefore you cannot load a significant margin onto it. You have to find another product that still HAS a significant marginal cost to cover your fixed costs.

    This is basic economics.

    If you want to understand this more graphically I suggest you visit your local Ferrari dealership. Look at the plush carpets, the fancy suits that the salesmen wear. If you look like a potential Ferrari buyer you could try going in to be offered a free coffee and to explore the shiny showroom. If they believe you are serious you might be offered champagne.

    Now compare the local market stall.

    Why don't you get offered free coffee when you go in to buy a bag of carrots?

    Answer - because you can't cover the same overheads when you're selling $1 items as you can when you're selling $200,000 ones.

    The record industry's problem is that technology has turned their product from a Ferrari into a bag of carrots overnight and they're still saddled with Ferrari dealer overheads.

     

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  40.  
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    Richard (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 6:22am

    Re: Re:

    It was the best spoof comment I've seen in a while - and you fell for it....!!

     

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  41.  
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    Greevar (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 6:27am

    Re:

    Well, they will never do that. They can't, their whole business strategy is dependent on having a complete monopoly on distributing content their artists produce. Without an absolute monopoly, their model falls apart as they have nothing finite to sell. Artists, on the other hand, have always had something to sell.

     

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  42.  
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    Richard (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 6:29am

    Re:

    Choice. It's a good thing. Taking away other people's choice. Not a good thing.

    Their choice was never a real one in the first place. Once published a work is "out there" in the hands of other people. You have no more realistic hope of retaining control of it than Cnut had in holding back the tide.

    "God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, And wisdom to know the difference."

    Reinhold Niebuhr

     

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  43.  
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    PopeRatzo (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 6:37am

    No Big Deal

    To be fair, though, when your music is as trivial and forgettable as David Guetta's, you might as well give it away.

    He'll make his dough as a producer for some big pop divas and that's good enough.

    He's right about free content, though. But in his case, you do get what you pay for.

     

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  44.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 6:41am

    Re: Re:

    So you don't think they should even the choice to try if they want to? If you think they're going to fail, then let them. Let them realize on their own that they're wrong. The reality is, though, that lots of people are doing just fine by not giving it away.

     

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  45.  
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    Greevar (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 6:52am

    Re:

    It's not a magic bullet strategy, it's just adapting to the market. The only "magic bullet" model out there for content is to be continually adaptive. Guetta found a way to do it. Right now, that strategy is to give away recorded music and sell performances.

    As far as taking away choice, those people you defend chose to produce content they knew is easy to copy. You can't keep people from making copies, so why try? Stop pretending that it's a natural right to choose who gets to share ideas and knowledge. It's far more beneficial to society that it gets shared rather than held for ransom. More people with more access to works will inspire far more people to create more works than the previous methods of disseminating works. When controlling access to content becomes a business, it hurts us all.

     

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  46.  
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    Greevar (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 6:59am

    Re: Re: Re:

    That's not guaranteed to last. In fact, the younger generations are already growing up in a culture of free and sharing content. What do you think the market will look like when everyone who did things the old way are gone and those that grew up sharing are the dominant demographic? Let me guess, you think the whole business will go belly up and there will be no more professional music, right? Perhaps not the kind of corporate boondoggle we see today, but there will still be celebrated artists creating works that define a generation. It just won't be kind of business you and I grew up with.

     

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  47.  
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    Richard (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 7:03am

    Re: Re: Re:

    So you don't think they should even the choice to try if they want to?

    The reality is that they don't have (and never had) the choice.

    Once something is published the opportunity to restrict it is gone.

    That doesn't mean that you can't charge for the copies that you make available yourself. The people that you refer to are doing just that - but if you search for Torrents etc you will find that even those people have de-facto given away their stuff - whether they wanted to or not.

    Personally I'm perfectly happy to pay for a download provided it isn't at a silly iTunes price (most of which goes to Apple anyway). I'm also happy to pay more to go to a concert, pay even more to go on a weekend workshop with an artist I like and pay even more up front to fund a recording being made (to be released to the public domain).

    So if you want to make money from me then you had better be aware that you will make so much more from the other routes that giving away the recording (even if not doing it really was an option) makes a lot of sense.

     

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  48.  
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    Anonymous, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 7:12am

    Re: Re:

    Oh p*ss off, you baby.

    That untalented hack Nina Paley once compared piracy with freeing the slaves from the South.

     

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  49.  
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    Richard (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 7:13am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Why stop?

    So you admit that the comments are stupid then...

     

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  50.  
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    Richard (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 7:15am

    Re: Re: Wow

    Thought the rape comment was pretty silly, but this guy continues to impress.

    The rape comment was a different AC.

    This one is a spoof!!

     

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  51.  
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    Richard (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 7:18am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    That's not guaranteed to last. In fact, the younger generations are already growing up in a culture of free and sharing content. What do you think the market will look like when everyone who did things the old way are gone and those that grew up sharing are the dominant demographic?

    Looking at the adverts on TV (including the ones in the programmes) it seems to me that the record indutry is now selling mostly to the over 60's.

     

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  52.  
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    PaulT (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 7:22am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Who's working for free? Last time I checked, Guetta is getting paid very handsomely for his services.

    As for the rest of your comment, I'm not sure if it's missing a sarcasm tag but just in case I'll respond... so what? If you're not trying to sell something that people are willing to pay for, that's your fault for having a bad business model. I'm certainly not going to cry about people being forced to work for a living because they're trying to get income from a system that's effectively unworkable.

    Meanwhile, I'll happily continue to pay the artists who are living in the modern era and adapted to the modern marketplace...

     

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  53.  
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    PaulT (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 7:31am

    Re: Re: Re:

    So, it's OK because one person on "the other side" did something similar once?

    Unfortunately, I'm not surprised that you think that's a valid form of debate. Fits in with your M.O. here...

     

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  54.  
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    PaulT (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 7:45am

    Re:

    Of course, in the time it took you to type this moronic post (*you* don't know who he is, so his opinion doesn't matter?), you could have typed his name into WIkipedia or Google and found out...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_guetta

    "Guetta has sold over three million albums and 15 million singles worldwide.[2]"

    I notice that you don't have a Wikipedia entry, so presumably your opinion means less than Guetta's, right?

     

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  55.  
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    Anonymous Poster, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 7:46am

    Re: Re: Re:

    That's a nice attempt to deflect attention from your own horrible statement.

    Oh wait.

     

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  56.  
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    Anonymous, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 7:59am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Oh wait is right, as I wasn't the one who made the analogy.

    Nonetheless, the OP is doing a good job of demonstrating how silly Masnick's rabid piracy apologism is.

     

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  57.  
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    PaulT (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 8:04am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Still not able to parse his actual points yet? Keep working at it, you'll see what's really being said instead of that poor strawman you keep beating on. Then you might be able to engage in actual conversation for a change.

    If you really do work in the industry as you often claim, it might be nice to get an insider's perspective on the actual points being raised, for once...

     

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  58.  
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    Gabriel Tane (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 8:07am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Who's the rabid one around here? Mike reports stories as he finds them or are sent to him... sometimes he misses points, sometimes he doesn't...

    But every time it's about copyright or the lawsuits there-of, you're the one who comes in flinging wildly accusation posts about things you have never backed up with actual fact.

    You're a troll. You have brought no value to conversation. You have nothing worthwhile to say. You do nothing but insult anyone who disagrees with you. Why are you here? Are you bored? Lonely? Did a pirate board your ship and make you walk the plank in a past life? I think I can safely elevate you above Jack Thompson on the list of ridiculously-personal crusades.

    And the sad part? The windmills are winning.

     

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  59.  
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    Greevar (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 8:17am

    Re: Re:

    You need to get your sarcasm detector checked.

     

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  60.  
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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 8:20am

    Re:

    Wow. Because only strangers can be rapists? Because rape is comparable to piracy?

    Oh, wait, I see. Because you're a complete douchebag.

     

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  61.  
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    mike mech, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 8:20am

    Attitude

    He can talk like that because he's a popular dj and earn 90% of his money with djing.

    So for him his tracks are just promo... to visit one of his gigs.

     

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  62.  
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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 8:23am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Thanks. I totally felt like bringing out my copy/paste on this subject, that I keep filed under MUSIC/WHINING for comments just like yours. :)

    These people that are calling themselves 'artists' are essentially throwing tantrums because they think that they're entitled to make a living doing what they love.

    News Flash: You do what you love because you love to do it. End of story. Most people work a day job, and then do what they love in their spare time. I've got zero sympathy for snivelers who cry about not making a mint from their art, or actually having to work to make money from their talent, just like everyone else does.

    I'll tell you what, it takes talent and work to earn money in sales. It takes talent and work to earn money in customer service. It takes talent and work to earn money as a mechanic. It takes talent and work to earn money as a blogger. It takes talent and work to earn money in every single industry, including music and art.

    You can make all the art you want without getting paid for it. A monetary exchange that benefits the artist isn't necessary for the artist to create art. Look at the countless number of artists who didn't make money from their art in their lifetimes, and only gained recognition after their deaths.

    Let me be clear: The unwillingness of the public to support artists has never stopped the creation of art, and never will.

    If you want to create art, create it. If you want to share your art, share it. If you want to make money, make it. You don't automatically deserve money from me just because you created art and shared it. The end. Deal with it.

     

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  63.  
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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 8:25am

    Re: Re: Re:

    And comparing a current event with a historical event is analogous to comparing a current event with a situation that's happening right now, at this very instant how, exactly?

     

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  64.  
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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 8:26am

    Re: Re:

    Or they can apologize for being the poster child of rape culture.

    I'll take either.

     

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  65.  
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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 8:28am

    Re:

    Wow. Because only strangers can be rapists? Because rape is comparable to piracy?

    Oh, wait, I see. Because you're a complete douchebag.

    I can copy/paste as well.

     

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  66.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 8:29am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    The straw man is down, the straw man is down!! Oh no, what will the intelligent half of the world do now!!

    Woe is me, woe is the artist, woe is the world!!

    Oh wait, never mind, woe is the untalented middleman - who gives a flying f*ck that those without talent don't get paid!!

     

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  67.  
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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 8:31am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Your 'performance' is much worse, I assure you, especially considering that you're the only person here performing.

    The rest of us are engaging in a discussion.

    And by the way, your rendition of Rape Culture Trope #43: Rape Really Is Like Everything Else was pathetic. I've heard it performed way better.

     

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  68.  
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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 8:34am

    Re: Re:

    I think Hyperbole and a Half is hilarious. My kids, whom are homeschooled and relatively immune to peer pressure, think Fred is hilarious.

    Wow, it's so weird. Subjective humor is subjective.

     

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  69.  
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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 8:36am

    Re:

    ...we need to take other people's ability to not give it away.

    We haven't done this. Basic economics has done this.

    God, I really want to put this on a picture of a cat so people can understand it.

     

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  70.  
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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 8:37am

    Re: Attitude

    Yes, that was the point. He's giving away the tracks to help his DJing business. Again, that was the point.

     

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  71.  
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    average_joe (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 8:38am

    Re:

    ... and the way to stop rape is to agree to have sex with every stranger

    Why was this post censored? It was a valid analogy, IMO. And even if it weren't so, I disagree with the techdirt-sponsored censorship of ideas that differ from my own. Doesn't techdirt promote the value of non-censorship? Strange that a censorship feature is built right in to the website that so opposes censorship. What kind of message is that?

    The poster's suggestion is that it's silly to think that the only way to stop someone from violating your rights is to just allow them to violate your rights. Marked as "insightful" by this reader.

     

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    Chris Rhodes (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 8:43am

    Re:

    As a dj/producer, albeit not necessarily a huge guetta fan anymore, its a slightly different world for these types of people.

    "Sure, it works for [the type of artist in the example], but it will never work for [some other type of artist]."

     

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  73.  
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    Chris Rhodes (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 8:45am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Not to defend an anonymous troll with an awful analogy, but how does his statement promote "rape culture"? After the whole PA "Dickwolves" debacle, I'm really confused as to the bounds that some people are trying to erect around that particular word.

     

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  74.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 8:47am

    Re: Re:

    You can uncensor the post by clicking on it.

    This comment has been flagged by the community. Click to show the comment.

    That's a strange form of censorship.

     

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  75.  
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    Ron Rezendes (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 8:50am

    Re: Re:

    Very well put Greevar.

    It's not anything Masnick hasn't already said but it is brief and to the point. Right on mark, I'd say. However, there are those that will take exception to your well versed words of wisdom - it is those that believe the "way we've always done it" must be the right way because they actually produce no content of their own - they just want to be paid because the artist made something that they believe they deserve(?) a share of!

    I have yet to hear an actual artist or content producer raise the objections we see here from the trolls who claim that the content industry is being eroded and devalued by the adaptive marketing practices we see highlighted here on TD! Why do only shills and trolls make these comments, wouldn't actual artists/talented folk be howling if these "new" marketing techniques didn't work at all? Radio and TV have handed the consumer content on a timely basis for 60 years, but when TD writes about how giving away content is viable (when followed up on correctly) the shills and trolls come out from under their bridge to declare the rest of the world is made up of criminal "freetards" who are willing to steal anything from anybody because they don't "have" to pay if it is freely available. Yet, time and again the studies show this simply isn't the case. But who needs facts when you have an axe to grind?!

     

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  76.  
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    Chris Rhodes (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 8:53am

    Re: Re:

    Um, it was "censored" because he posted it twice. =)

     

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    PaulT (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 9:04am

    Re: Re:

    1. It wasn't censored, it was hidden from view, and said hiding is easily undone. If that's censorship, it's an astoundingly mild form. In fact, the different coloured text might attract people to read it who may have glossed over it previously (I know I always click on such text to see what I'm missing...)

    2. It says "flagged by the community", meaning that TD had nothing directly to do with it. The feature is there in part because people do occasionally spam these boards and the trolls can get out of hand. It's a feature that utilises "crowd sourcing" - something that tends to be praised here, and which means that Mike et al. are free to spend their own time more productively. What's the problem there?

    3. If you pay attention, it was clearly flagged because it was a duplicate post of an incredibly stupid and deliberately offensive comment. I feel sorry for you if you think that kind of crap is "insightful".Yeah, duplicated troll posts do tend to be subject to some kind of "censorship", and I fail to see the problem with that. Even so, the flagging was clearly due to the duplication of the post rather than its content, as evidenced by the fact that the original has not been flagged.

    Stop seeing conspiracies where they don't exist. It makes life easier, and allows you to actually converse with people...

     

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  78.  
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    Gabriel Tane (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 9:06am

    Re: Re:

    I agree with not marking it for Report... that should only be done on spam, people.

    Joe, I hardly think it's "techdirt sponsored" anything... someone didn't like the analogy and marked it for report because they found it offensive.

    And insightful or not (in my opinion "not"), this should be filed right next to making references to Nazi and Hitler... a ridiculous extreme made to incite people based on the horribleness of the item used (rape in this case). It's not a valid, insightful reference, it's inciteful trolling.

     

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    Gabriel Tane (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 9:07am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Aaaand now I remember the fact that it was a duplicate post. -facepalm- G'night folks!

     

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  80.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 9:10am

    Re: Re:

    Quit bringing logic into things, AJ.

    Don't you know how it works around here? Piracy = good, anything else = bad.

     

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  81.  
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    Chris Rhodes (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 9:13am

    Re: Re:

    God, I really want to put this on a picture of a cat so people can understand it.

    This is fantastic. I'm going to save that one for later.

    It's not copyrighted, right? ;)

     

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  82.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 9:15am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Straw man = good, straw woman = bad.

     

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  83.  
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    PaulT (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 9:22am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Logic? Where? His post was as logical as your second line was factual...

     

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  84.  
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    average_joe (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 9:28am

    Re: Re: Re:

    You can uncensor the post by clicking on it.

    This comment has been flagged by the community. Click to show the comment.

    That's a strange form of censorship.


    According to techdirt, it's "censorship" for Google to not show certain results in its auto-complete even though those same results show up in the full search. I'm simply applying techdirt's own definition of the word.

     

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  85.  
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    PaulT (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 9:37am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    So, no admission of the mistake you made by jumping to such conclusions, just an attempt to deflect any criticism? Figures.

     

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  86.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 9:42am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Loud expressions of ladylike outrage at politically incorrect opinion does not constitute a meaningful discussion. Sorry, try again.

     

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  87.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 9:44am

    Re: Re:

    Thank you for providing a bunch of irrelevant nonsequiturs. Let me know when you figure out how to make a valid argument.

     

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  88.  
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    average_joe (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 9:54am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I'm sorry, but I don't follow you at all. The post was blocked because of its content. That's censorship, according to techdirt's own logic. What mistake did I make?

     

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  89.  
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    The Infamous Joe (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 10:01am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I agree with you completely, for once. The "report" button should be used to block spam or severely off-topic comments-- never to censor posts, even from trolls.

    That being said, he *did* post the same thing twice, which is in the realm of spam. His original comment, the first one, has not (yet) been voted down.

    So, easy there, fella.

     

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  90.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 10:03am

    Re: Re:

    It is already quite possible to rob someone 5000 miles away.

    In the spirit of Masnick and about 9000 of his techdirt cheerleaders, a nice way to combat this is by handing out the wallet and bank account password to everyone who asks.

     

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  91.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 10:05am

    Re: Re:

    Thank you for providing a bunch of irrelevant nonsequiturs. But do get back when you figure out how to make a correct argument.

     

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  92.  
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    The Infamous Joe (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 10:07am

    Re: Re: Attitude

    I like it best when they get it, but they don't get that the get it.

     

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  93.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 10:07am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    For a conventional man, "stupid" and "original" are synonymous. So I take this as a compliment.

     

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  94.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 10:22am

    Re: Re:

    It is equally as moronic to think you are any less anonymous to the general population here on techdirt than those of us posting without logging in. If I created an account WUOHWSHKGS under the e-mail LWYKUW@throwawayemail.com how does that make my opinion more valid?

     

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  95.  
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    Marcel de Jong (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 10:23am

    Re: Re:

    The producing services are scarce goods, you can ask money for that.

    Music on your website isn't a scarce good, and you don't HAVE to ask money for that.

    Nice try, Bob, better luck next time.

     

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  96.  
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    Marcel de Jong (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 10:27am

    Re: No Big Deal

    Just that YOU don't like it, doesn't mean the rest of the world doesn't like it either.

    He has fans all over the globe.

     

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  97.  
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    Marcel de Jong (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 10:32am

    Pointless battles going on in here

    Why the heck are we arguing the same points over and over again on this blog, we're getting nowhere fast. Because the other side doesn't even want to listen.

    The pro-copyright people will spout the same strawman arguments over and over and over again, meanwhile we try to educate them.
    But they have closed their minds to our solutions, trying to refute them by saying that it works for artist X but wouldn't work for artist Y. Or that it's the same as rape, or they compare a non-scarce good to a scarce good, and argue that they be the same as well.

    To the pro-copyright people, how many of you watched the Superbowl last night? How much did you pay to watch it?

    They are putting it on tv for free (albeit ad-supported), in order to have people become fans, and have those fans then go pay for tickets to visit the games or buy apparel.
    How is THAT any different from what David Guetta is saying here?

     

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  98.  
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    Marcel de Jong (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 10:36am

    Re: Attitude

    Wait! So, one pro-copyright person is saying "Well, he can put it out there for free, because his stuff isn't worth much" and the other pro-copyright person is saying "well, he's a popular dj."...

    So, what is he? An awful or a good dj?

    But clearly you all have now seen that this business model would work for talentless hacks as well for talented people.

     

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  99.  
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    The Infamous Joe (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 10:40am

    Re: Re: Re:

    It doesn't make you less or more anonymous, but it gives you a history. You can go see every comment I've made. We cannot with you. It makes a difference, trust me.

     

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  100.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 11:26am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    And the sad part? The windmills are winning.
    Told you we needed a "Don Quixote" voting button....

     

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  101.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 11:45am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    David Guetta is a superstar in the DJ world, that's why he makes that much. 98 % of artists aren't at that level. So, yeah, he doesn't care about piracy. Do you think an artist that makes no money and is trying to come up wouldn't suffer from people expecting to fet their product for free?

    By the way, as someone who has been in the entertainment business for a decade, 'show gross' never translates to artist cut. I would estimate he made 90K that night personally after all expenses.

     

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  102.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 11:46am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    David Guetta is a superstar in the DJ world, that's why he makes that much. 98 % of artists aren't at that level. So, yeah, he doesn't care about piracy. Do you think an artist that makes no money and is trying to come up wouldn't suffer from people expecting to fet their product for free?

    By the way, as someone who has been in the entertainment business for a decade, 'show gross' never translates to artist cut. I would estimate he made 90K that night personally after all expenses.

     

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  103.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 12:16pm

    Re: Re:

    It was a valid analogy,
    Marked as funny because there isn't a button for "Uh... What???"

     

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  104.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 12:19pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    That's what I said, total chump change.

     

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  105.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 12:31pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    A lot of the music played by electronic djs is not from the RIAA/ASCAP pool of albums. Vast majority of it is small labels or self-published guys, mostly found on www.beatport.com. Like I said, it works well for this type of artist/dj. They expose their own talents and along the way put new music in the spotlight. The general attitude among all listeners and djs and producers of this music is *take it*.

     

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  106.  
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    Mr Big Content, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 12:36pm

    Who’s David Guetta?

    Funny how all these examples Mike offers of musicians being successful by embracing piracy are ones I would never listen to anyway. That shows the fundamental flaw with the idea of giving your stuff away for free: it would never work with any artist I would care about.

     

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  107.  
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    Gabriel Tane (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 12:59pm

    Re: Who’s David Guetta?

    So... does that make it an invalid business model or argument? I hardly think that an incompatibility to your (or any one person's) musical tastes is a 'fatal flaw' in a business model.

     

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  108.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 1:22pm

    Funny how all these examples Mike offers of musicians being successful by embracing reality & the economics of infinite goods are ones I would never listen to anyway.

    This shows the fundamental flaw with the idea of attempting to have a rational discussion with me: it would never work as I will not be brought to a position by logic, evidence or examples as these are things I do not care about.

     

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    Greevar (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 1:31pm

    Re: Re: Who’s David Guetta?

    Oh, but it does! Unless Lady Gaga, and her ilk, starts doing this, the whole thing is without merit because only famous pop artists can be exhibited as proof of a working business model. If they aren't on the billboard top 100, they don't count. It only is considered a working model if the artist makes more money than Bill Gates from it. Let's just forget about the people making a sustainable living from other business models, they don't prove that they work.

    Just in case some of you have an MBA, which negates your ability to grasp the obvious, I am being sarcastic.

     

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  110.  
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    Greevar (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 1:38pm

    Re:

    Really? They are successful despite the fact that someone whom apparently only listens to top-of-the-charts music, doesn't listen to them. I'd say their model works well enough if they can succeed without your kind as a fan.

     

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  111.  
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    Karl (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 1:57pm

    Re: Re:

    It was a valid analogy, IMO.

    So, I guess it's OK if I come over and "fair use" your wife?

     

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  112.  
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    MusicFan06, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 2:03pm

    Did you see the video for the song he did with Rihanna? If you watch it on doritoslatenight.com you can switch between day and night. It's the coolest video I've seen in a long time.

     

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  113.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 2:09pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    Fine by me, but I doubt she'd be into it. LOL!

     

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  114.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 2:22pm

    Greevar, you are missing the whole anonymous point.

    Minor, new or niche artists don't count when they do this kind of thing because they have nothing to lose.

    Major, successful, mainstream artists don't count when they do this as they are rolling in it and can afford to take the risk.

    Midrank artists who no one can think of off hand are the ones who are most damaged by whatever it is that Mike is talking about because they can't don't, do you see?

    Every success is always an exception,
    any failure will be proof positive that there is no workable alternative to suing everyone in sight and the laws must be changed to make suing a profitable, speedy and efficient business model.

    Case closed

     

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  115.  
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    Gwiz (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 2:29pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    Out of context much?

    Nina responded to the question "Name another business model that allowed itself to be ruined by illegal behavior." with the answer "Slavery." Which is true.

    http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20101220/00032812332/piracy-isnt-problem-bad-business-mode l-is-problem.shtml#c807

    You can see for yourself that Nina did not compare piracy to slavery, but only named another business model ruined by illegal behavior.

    I am sure you really don't care what was actually said and will continue to spin untruths just to portray this whole site as "Freetard Apologists"

     

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  116.  
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    Greevar (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 2:47pm

    Re:

    You're funny.

     

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  117.  
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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 3:00pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    Because rape is like theft how?

     

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  118.  
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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 3:12pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html is a terrific primer, especially after witnessing the horror that was Tycho's reaction to being wrong, once. (I realize that he hasn't had much practice, but wow. The first time was the winner for him.)

    Anyway, specifically, his comment:

    1. Assumes that everyone can consent, which is absolutely not true. (Take children, some cognitively impaired adults, and coma victims, for example.)

    2. Assumes that strangers are the potential rapists, even though people are three times more likely to be raped by someone they know than a stranger, and nine times more likely to be raped in their home, the home of someone they know, or anywhere else than being raped on the street.

    3. Diminishes the gravity of sexual assault by using the word 'rape' to describe something other than a forced or coerced sex act.

    And kudos to you for asking, instead of just assuming that since you don't personally understand it yet, I'm wrong. :)

     

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  119.  
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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 3:13pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    It doesn't follow that pointing out the errors in your reprehensible analogy is relevant?

    I see. You're an ignorant douchebag. But do come back when you get a clue.

     

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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 3:16pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Actually, your analogy was perfectly politically correct, which is why I've heard your tune performed so often (but not usually quite so badly).

    And in case you didn't notice, there are quite a few comments on this thread that are completely unrelated to your trolling.

     

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  121.  
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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 3:17pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    According to techdirt, it's "censorship" for Google to not show certain results in its auto-complete even though those same results show up in the full search. I'm simply applying techdirt's own definition of the word.

    Yes, but Mike Masnick hasn't selected what doesn't show. The community had selected what doesn't show. This is less like censorship and more like SafeSearch.

     

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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 3:18pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I do agree that only spam and severely-off topic comments should be moderated, if any moderation occurs at all past the spam filter.

    I would be happier if the pushing of the report button led to a human being looking it over. :/

     

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  123.  
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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 3:24pm

    Re: Re:

    Strange that a censorship feature is built right in to the website that so opposes censorship.

    Previously, Mike has questioned the judgment of companies that 'moderated' their offerings past loud protests and cries of outrage from their customer base (a la Apple's App Store and Google's InstantSearch).

    In this case, Mike is openly offering the community a way to moderate the thread themselves, after several used of incessant begging by said community. In this case, it's a feature, not a bug, esp. to the many people using it.

    That being said, I disagree with this button being used in this manner, and have protested this idea every time that readers have asked for it. I would be happier if the pushing of the report button led to a human being looking it over, and deciding if it's spam or off-topic, but then it really would be Techdirt removing messages, rather than the community, and the cries of censorship would get louder, rather than quieter. :/

     

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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 3:27pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    You're welcome to use it. I've been using it lately, and my fervent hope is that is becomes a meme to stupidity everywhere. ;)

     

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    RadialSkid (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 3:55pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    How exactly does "you can't hear my music unless you pay me" benefit the 98% of artists you're referring to? All the hustling in the world is going to convince someone to pay for something they haven't heard.

    On the other hand, allowing them to download the music for free serves as an excellent form of promotion, since there is less of a risk in downloading the tracks. If you don't like them, delete them, and you've lost nothing, save for perhaps some monthly bandwidth.

     

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  126.  
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    RadialSkid (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 3:57pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Eh, that should be "all the hustling in the world ISN'T going to convince..."

    Mea culpa.

     

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  127.  
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    Marcel de Jong (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 4:23pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    There are four types of people in the world.
    The unknowingly ignorant
    the knowingly ignorant
    the unknowingly smart
    the knowingly smart.

    I peg you at the second option.
    You know that you are ignorant, and you bask in it.
    Because you are deliberately ignoring what we are saying. We keep saying that you can't compare non-scarce goods (like digital downloads) with scarce goods (like cars and cds and purses and tvs and bank account information, and pin numbers and wallets).

    And that this can't be the same as theft, as copyright infringement is treated differently in the lawbooks. In fact, one is a criminal offense (theft), and the other is a civil offense (copyright infringement).

     

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    Marcel de Jong (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 4:26pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I'm one of the person's who clicked "report" on both posts, because it was incredibly offensive to me, and also not at all on topic. Equating copyright infringement with rape, how dare he.

     

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    Karl (profile), Feb 7th, 2011 @ 4:58pm

    Re: Re: Re: Who’s David Guetta?

    Unless Lady Gaga, and her ilk, starts doing this

    Oh, but she has:
    http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100524/0032549541.shtml

     

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  130.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 5:40pm

    Welcome performer/artist,

    We at transgalaxy can pull you out of oblivion and ensure that your music/writings/art will be seen by the public.
    Your redemption is only available through us as without our promotional budget, no one will ever see or hear your work.

    That is unless you use the internet.
    Ssssh

    Don't use the internet, there's all that piracy.

     

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  131.  
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    Trained Pigeon, Feb 7th, 2011 @ 9:44pm

    Re: Rape = Piracy

    So here are a few specific reasons why your comparison is stupid and offensive.

    1. Rape is a crime that is defined not by some "thing" that is "stolen," but as an attack on a person, more similar in spirit to assault or murder than nonviolent larceny.

    2. Rape has a very definite set of victims and is typically prosecuted on their behalf, whereas all the data supports the idea that even inasmuch as the bottom lines of companies can be "victims" in a crime, digital "piracy" is benign if not helpful to sales of copyrighted materials.

    3. While we're at it, most rapes are committed by acquaintances, but that's kind of irrelevant to the comparison. But it does belie further ignorance of, you know, the reality of either of these situations, so I thought it was worth pointing out.

    4. In general, consenting to sex with all strangers is a very poor comparison to free content distribution models, because it does little if anything to mitigate the trauma caused, may not prevent violent sexual assault (Many rapists aren't just desperate for sex, after all), and, as I've mentioned before, free content distribution models actually do solve the "problem" of piracy, and there are numerous studies that support either this or the assertion that it is not a problem for content providers in the first place (In terms of money or even sales).

    Please try to be informed on both or at least one of the two things you're comparing when making analogies. Otherwise they tend to come off as rather infantile (See: Godwin's law)

     

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  132.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 8th, 2011 @ 1:52am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    It takes a rational man to make arguments without resorting to personal attacks.

     

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  133.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 8th, 2011 @ 3:06am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Once you show some shred of ability to find errors in my logic, I just might pay attention. Until then, you must grow up and learn how to argue without making personal attacks.

     

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  134.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 8th, 2011 @ 3:11am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    You ought to familiarize yourself with the concept called "free speech". It entails not trying to censor speech you find offensive. I suggest you begin by reading the constitution of the USA. Otherwise venturing out of your cosy home into wide bad internet is bound to cause you lots of severe anguish.

     

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  135.  
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    Marcel de Jong (profile), Feb 8th, 2011 @ 4:41am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    3 issues with your comment:

    1) Don't be condescending.
    2) I'm not a US citizen, so the USA constitution does not apply to me. (Regardless where the site is hosted)
    3) I am a firm believer of freedom of speech and will defend anyone's right, even if I don't agree with someone. But in this case I figured that it was an unwarranted and unwelcome 'contribution' (if you want to call it as such) to the discussion. In fact it seems to have meant as a willful inflammation of the community. We, as in most of the techdirt readers and commenters have debunked that particular statement many times over in the past. And it keeps getting back. And I just decided to flag it for report.
    Perhaps it wasn't the right move, but I'm sick and tired of these kinds of trolls that equate a civil matter with a highly criminal matter, such as rape and theft. Stop conflating and further complicating an already complex issue by adding needless and woefully wrong rhetoric into the mix.

     

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    Not an electronic Rodent, Feb 8th, 2011 @ 10:33am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I second what he said.

     

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  137.  
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    Chris Rhodes (profile), Feb 8th, 2011 @ 11:37am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    (As far as the PA thing goes, I think that was an example of "failure to pick your battles" from both sides. The original comic didn't seem offensive, so there was a failure there, but then, inexplicably, PA picked up the gauntlet. Why? You got me. Most of the outrage heaped upon them was due to their second comic, not the first.)

    1. Assumes that everyone can consent, which is absolutely not true. (Take children, some cognitively impaired adults, and coma victims, for example.)

    I think his error there is more along the lines of "terrible analogy" rather than "promoting rape culture". Unless you believe one is the other, in which case I grant you the point here.

    2. Assumes that strangers are the potential rapists, even though people are three times more likely to be raped by someone they know than a stranger, and nine times more likely to be raped in their home, the home of someone they know, or anywhere else than being raped on the street.

    So it's more about ignorance or slips of the tongue? For example, he could have said "and the way to stop rape is to have sex with anyone who wants to". Would that have removed his statement from "rape culture" back into "bad analogy" territory, at least for #2?

    3. Diminishes the gravity of sexual assault by using the word 'rape' to describe something other than a forced or coerced sex act.

    How so? He appears (to me) to have used the word "rape" to mean actual rape. I don't think he meant it in a colloquial non-literal sense, such as "and the way to stop [gamers from pwning each other online] is to have sex with anyone who asks" or "and the way to stop [systematic environmental destruction] is to have sex with anyone who asks".

     

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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 8th, 2011 @ 2:00pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    You ought to familiarize yourself with the concept called "free speech".

    No, I'm pretty sure you're the one who needs a refresher.

    It entails not trying to censor speech you find offensive.

    No, it doesn't. It entails the government not censoring speech. The community members are not the government and this website is not public property, ergo, no censorship.

    I suggest you begin by reading the constitution of the USA.

    That's my suggestion to you, sir. Here's the pertinent bit:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    See? This applies to the government, not private citizens on private property.

    Otherwise venturing out of your cosy home into wide bad internet is bound to cause you lots of severe anguish.

    Like you've just experienced? LOL

     

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  139.  
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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 8th, 2011 @ 2:18pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    ...inexplicably, PA picked up the gauntlet. Why? You got me. Most of the outrage heaped upon them was due to their second comic, not the first.)

    Well, I have to say that criticism of art isn't exactly throwing a gauntlet for battle, so with the second comic and everything they did afterward, they were picking up a nonexistent and imaginary gauntlet, which was really a bad idea. But I agree that the second comic (and everything that followed), was really the 'oil on fire' bit. The first comic was cringe-worthy, but the rest was crap.

    I think his error there is more along the lines of "terrible analogy" rather than "promoting rape culture". Unless you believe one is the other, in which case I grant you the point here.

    The fact that he can make that terrible error in a culture where so many people have experienced sexual assault is, in fact, a tenet of rape culture. So it's not an either/or situation. His statement is an example rape culture and terrible analogies, lol.

    So it's more about ignorance or slips of the tongue?

    Rape culture is about both. We aren't ignorant about murder or theft. Actually, we think more of murder and theft than we actually should, statistically. When people have 'slips of the tongue' about theft (especially vs. piracy), people jump on them for them. Rape? Not so much. I was surprised and heartened to see it happen here, although that's probably more of a 'logic' thing than a 'we actually care about rape' thing. (I'll take it how I can get it, though.)

    For example, he could have said "and the way to stop rape is to have sex with anyone who wants to". Would that have removed his statement from "rape culture" back into "bad analogy" territory, at least for #2?

    Again, that's assuming that everyone can consent, and rape only happens to people who can otherwise consent. Millions of Americans raped as children can tell you that's not the case. I guess he could have said:

    'And the way to stop the rape of cognitively able adults would be for them to enthusiastically agree to have sex with every other cognitively able adult who wanted to.'

    In which case it would have been a terrible, illogical analogy. Of course, someone who's spent that much time understanding the reality of rape isn't even going to make a stupid analogy like that, so there's that as well.

    He appears (to me) to have used the word "rape" to mean actual rape.

    Yes, in the inference that rape is analogous to piracy. (Or theft, maybe?) In other words, he's using the word 'rape' to describe an act that isn't even grave enough to be described by the word 'theft' by most people.

    Again, comparing sexual assault to even actual theft and finding them to be equal is a part of rape culture, because it pretends that having your mp3 downloaded or your laptop stolen is as bad as being raped. It's not.

     

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  140.  
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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 8th, 2011 @ 2:20pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    So you're saying that you're not a rational man?

     

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  141.  
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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 8th, 2011 @ 2:22pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I've already pointed out multiple errors in what you're referring to as logic, and you've already paid attention to every comment that I've made.

    So, possibly, you should grow up and quit saying stupid shit?

     

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  142.  
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    Richard (profile), Feb 8th, 2011 @ 2:27pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    For a conventional man, "stupid" and "original" are synonymous.

    My original education is in the field of physics from which that concept arises so I know it very well. However it is clear that not every stupid idea is original in a useful way.

    The classic quote is " we are all agreed that you are crazy - we are arguing about whether you are crazy enough to be right"

    In your case there is no argument - you are "crazy" but not sufficiently (or in the right kind of way) to be right.

     

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    Chris Rhodes (profile), Feb 8th, 2011 @ 3:17pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I guess he could have said: [snip] In which case it would have been a terrible, illogical analogy.

    Yeah, but people are rarely so specific about their wording, even when they aren't using the word rape. If he had said, "And the solution to murder is to let every stranger who wants to kill you do so", would that promote a "murder culture", if (hypothetically) you could point to a statistic that said most murders are committed by non-strangers?

    Yes, in the inference that rape is analogous to piracy.

    Eh, I don't think he was saying the two were equally heinous crimes or otherwise morally equivalent. If I understood his terrible analogy, it was that giving in willingly to a problem is not a solution to the problem. He just chose rape as his particular example. He could have chosen anything from petty theft (popular with the IP crowd, for sure) to murder.

    I guess I don't really understand where a good portion of the outrage comes from, since it doesn't seem to target what I would consider to be the core issue. If you asked me to define "rape culture", I would say it's a cultural disposition toward making rape "normal" or otherwise "not that bad".

    So if you make a joke that laughs about rape, that would qualify (PA's first comic did not do this, but you could argue their second did). Or if you used the word to describe something not related in any way, such as "DUDE! Did you see that shot? I just totally RAPED you! HURR DURR!", then you are guilty of attempting to change and soften the meaning of the word.

    (Under the above definition, and assuming that what we know of Assange's accuser is correct, and it may or may not be, it's very likely I could find her guilty her of promoting "rape culture" by attempting to subvert and twist the word for her own use.)

    Maybe I'm off base, but I'm sure you'll correct me. =)

     

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    PaulT (profile), Feb 8th, 2011 @ 3:18pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    First of all, the post was not blocked because of its content, it was blocked because it was a duplicate. You made the mistake of assuming it was the former, when evidence clearly suggests otherwise.

    Secondly, you made the mistake of assuming that TD was responsible. Yes, the users here utilised tools provided by TD to block the comment, but they were not responsible for said censorship, any more than they were responsible for your attempt to promote such a ridiculous comment as insightful.

    Those are just the most obvious errors.

     

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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 8th, 2011 @ 5:52pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Yeah, but people are rarely so specific about their wording, even when they aren't using the word rape.

    Yes, when people are talking about piracy, they often use the word theft and sometimes rape, but never murder. Why is that? (Answer: We live in a rape culture.)

    ...would that promote a "murder culture"...

    Possibly. Some argue that Americans do have a 'murder' culture, although I don't know much about that.

    He just chose rape as his particular example. He could have chosen anything from petty theft (popular with the IP crowd, for sure) to murder.

    Yes, he could have chosen anything else, but he didn't. Unless you think that words have no meaning, then his choice of words matters.

    I guess I don't really understand where a good portion of the outrage comes from...

    What outrage? Again, a critique of something isn't always, or even usually, prompted by anger or rage.

    ...since it doesn't seem to target what I would consider to be the core issue.

    I don't believe that there is a single core issue that defines a rape culture.

    If you asked me to define "rape culture", I would say it's a cultural disposition toward making rape "normal" or otherwise "not that bad".

    You'd be wrong, largely because that definition assumes that a rape culture is something that we're moving toward, as opposed to something that already exists.

    However, if you said that it's a cultural disposition that reaffirms that rape is normal or otherwise not that bad, I might agree with you. :)

    Of course, even by your definition, his comment was still an example of rape culture, because rape is generally an acceptable analogy but Nazism is not. Ergo, rape is normal or otherwise not that bad, when compared to Nazism.

    So if you make a joke that laughs about rape, that would qualify (PA's first comic did not do this, but you could argue their second did).

    Okay, so PA felt it was okay to create a post that mimics something that actually happens in real life with the implication that it was funny, but that's not a joke that laughs about rape?

    I don't believe that it was intentional, but arguing that it's not a rape joke because they didn't intend for it to be a rape joke doesn't work. I mean, if you accidentally step on someone's foot, you can't say that you didn't actually step on their foot, right?

    (The fact that they didn't realize that it happens every day, in real life, was also an example of rape culture.)

    Regardless, I'm not any more irked about the first comic than I was about what followed, which was willful and intentional and shitty. Which is why I no longer read PA.

    ...if you used the word to describe something not related in any way, such as "DUDE! Did you see that shot? I just totally RAPED you! HURR DURR!", then you are guilty of attempting to change and soften the meaning of the word.

    I agree that the above sentence was promoting a rape culture, but that doesn't excuse less obvious examples.

    (Under the above definition, and assuming that what we know of Assange's accuser is correct, and it may or may not be, it's very likely I could find her guilty her of promoting "rape culture" by attempting to subvert and twist the word for her own use.)

    Hehe, this is a whole thing. There are two women involved, one possible broken condom, one possible act began while one person was asleep and unable to consent, one possible lie, two possible acts of revenge.

    Assuming what we know is true, nothing happened at all. You know, since we have no idea what actually happened, and no conclusive proof for Assange or either of the women.

    Assuming what we've heard is true, Assange is a rapist, one or both of the women are CIA plants, the women just wanted him to take an STD test and the Swedes decided to make them press charges, and the charges were a revenge move by one or both women.

    Maybe I'm off base, but I'm sure you'll correct me. =)

    Hey, you asked what I meant. I didn't just randomly correct something you said. :P

    And just out of curiosity, did you read Rape Culture 101?

     

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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 8th, 2011 @ 5:53pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Also, apologies for my crappy coding in that post.

     

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    Chris Rhodes (profile), Feb 8th, 2011 @ 8:48pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Yes, when people are talking about piracy, they often use the word theft and sometimes rape

    Piracy is usually described as theft outright. I've never seen someone assert piracy as the equivalent of rape (an analogy doesn't apply equivalence). I'll keep a lookout, but I actually don't expect such a thing to be prevalent at all. Maybe I'm wrong and just haven't noticed.

    Possibly. Some argue that Americans do have a 'murder' culture, although I don't know much about that.

    Actually, I would argue that in fact we do have a "murder" culture. Or at least a violence one. Rape, for all its misuses, is rarely portrayed as a good thing, but killing is practically our national entertainment these days. Even so, I wouldn't say that someone making an analogy that happens to use murder is evidence of it.

    Yes, he could have chosen anything else, but he didn't.

    The problem is that its very easy to get selection bias. All the times someone uses "rape" stand out to you, but not the times they use some other crime. They could be choosing what word to use with a dice roll and it would still appear that the use of "rape" is all over the place if that's all you're looking for.

    but that's not a joke that laughs about rape

    The joke wasn't about rape. It was about how shallow our online heroics are, even though we are told of the horrible things that befall the people we leave behind. "Rape" in this context was used as "very bad thing that should make you want to save the rest if you had an ounce of the heroic in you". I would argue that its use in this context is exactly the right way to use it.

    I'll leave off any more judgement on the Assange thing until something concrete happens, I guess.

    And just out of curiosity, did you read Rape Culture 101?

    I was at work for my last post, but I read it now. It's very well written. I can't help but think, however, that while I agree that rape is a terrible problem and that we may indeed have an issue with "rape culture", as it stands now, it seems to be very ill-defined and the debate has been punctuated with "us or them" rhetoric and a big case of confirmation bias.

    Talking about rape in a way that offends somebody promotes rape culture. Not talking about rape promotes rape culture. Disagreeing with the blog writer on the bounds of the issue makes you a part of rape culture. It's really hard to have a discussion when someone starts off by demanding that you agree with them before you can talk.

    I think if the issue is to really gain traction, there has to be a more vigorous, inclusive debate about what's really a problem and what's just a red herring that will turn away potential allies.

     

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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 8th, 2011 @ 11:01pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Rape, for all its misuses, is rarely portrayed as a good thing...

    Neither is it portrayed as a particularly bad thing. Generally, it's an ambiguous thing, to be blamed on the victim's habits, clothing, sexual history, etc., even if it's the rape of a minor, videotaped and plastered on the Internet.

    ...killing is practically our national entertainment these days.

    And rape isn't? Even if it weren't for the prevalence of rape in books, television, and movies, I'd be able to say that it counts as entertainment just from the sheer numbers of people that are raping other people.

    ..."rape culture", as it stands now, it seems to be very ill-defined...

    Rape culture is a term used to describe a culture in which rape and other sexual violence are common and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media condone, normalize, excuse, or encourage sexualized violence.

    I don't see that definition as confusing or ambiguous. Do you? I also don't see how you could argue that it doesn't describe the culture that we live in.

    Talking about rape in a way that offends somebody promotes rape culture.

    I don't see that this statement is true. Can you explain further? I mean, I offend people frequently when I talk about rape, and that's not an example of rape culture.

    I'd also like to point out that being a part of a rape culture doesn't make everyone morally equivalent with a rapist. Only a rapist is morally equivalent to a rapist.

    Sometimes people new to the idea feel offended and subsequently reject it not because it doesn't exist, but because the idea of rape culture means that they're a part of it, and of course, they couldn't be a party to rape. No way.

    But I think you're smart enough to skip that particular trap.

    Not talking about rape promotes rape culture.

    Yes. Not talking about the reality that 1 in 6 American women have been raped is absolutely a part of rape culture.

    How many women do you know? Think about it. Count it out, and then divide by six. That's how many women you know that have been raped.

    For an even more disturbing number, count how many women are in your family. Divide by six. That's how many women in your family have been raped.

    Or how many women you've seriously dated and care for. Divide by six. That's how many of them have been raped.

    The general reaction I see from people when presented with this statistic is disbelief. Then it moves to denial, and they usually want to explain why rape really doesn't happen very often, and how women and children are usually lying, why rape in prison doesn't count as rape (Because it's expected, apparently?), and how the victim could have avoided being raped.

    Disagreeing with the blog writer on the bounds of the issue makes you a part of rape culture.

    Well, sure, why not? I once read an account of Heinlein's trip through Soviet Russia. One of the guides refused to admit that a part of Russia had once been another country. According to the guide, it had always been Russia. Refusing to admit that the boundaries of Russia had changed made the guide a part of the Communist culture. He was perfectly willing to disbelieve the existence of that earlier country and to ignore his own earlier experience with Russian geography in order to keep his head in the ground.

    It's really hard to have a discussion when someone starts off by demanding that you agree with them before you can talk.

    If you want to have a discussion about whether or not rape culture exists on that particular blog, then yes, it does. However, that particular blog doesn't exists to discuss that topic (although there are many others do, and I'd be happy to track a few down if you're interested).

    Again, to use another Heinlein analogy, in Puppet Masters, a government agency has discovered that aliens are attaching themselves to human beings and puppeting (sp?) them. The main characters want to discuss an action plan with Congress. Congress wants to debate the existence of the aliens. It's awfully hard to discuss an an action plan with people who aren't yet ready to concede the existence of the aliens, and it's awfully hard to debate the existence of aliens with people who had seen and been puppeted by them.

    That particular blog wants to discuss an action plan. You still want to debate the existence. The difference is that, in this case, this doesn't close off a discussion of rape culture. It only closes it off on that particular blog, which is one of many, many bus stops on the blogosphere. :P

    I think if the issue is to really gain traction, there has to be a more vigorous, inclusive debate about what's really a problem and what's just a red herring that will turn away potential allies.

    There are many, many vigorous, inclusive debates about the problems inherent in a rape culture. There are even debates about whether or not we live in a rape culture. Potential allies should visit those sites if they want to join in on the discussion. You know, Google is out there. Use it. Educate yourself.

    Really, I only sent you that particular link because your posts are smart and usually logical. In general, that blog is like an advanced course, and I don't think that you've even had the beginner's course yet, but logic and intelligence will get you far on any topic, even one as loaded as this once.

    Anyway, if you're interested in exploring the question of whether or nor a rape culture exists, I encourage you to follow the links in that post. It will take time. Probably alot of it.

    But it will be worth it, if only to debunk the next me that comes along. :)

     

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  149.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 9th, 2011 @ 2:38am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    So far you're the only one in this thread who has been calling names.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 9th, 2011 @ 2:38am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    You have not pointed out a single error. You just angrily complained and called names, like a hurt little girl

     

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  151.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 9th, 2011 @ 2:52am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    No, it doesn't. It entails the government not censoring speech. The community members are not the government and this website is not public property, ergo, no censorship.

    That is plainly false. First amendment does restrict private entities, as, for instance, in "Pruneyard Shopping Center v. Robins" decision.

    Sorry, but it is a waste of time to argue with small petulant girls like yourself.

     

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    Gabriel Tane (profile), Feb 9th, 2011 @ 8:56am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "That is plainly false. First amendment does restrict private entities, as, for instance, in "Pruneyard Shopping Center v. Robins" decision. "
    Um... no. That case established two things:

    1) under the California Constitution, individuals may peacefully exercise their right to free speech in parts of private shopping centers regularly held open to the public, subject to reasonable regulations adopted by the shopping centers
    2)under the U.S. Constitution, states can provide their citizens with broader rights in their constitutions than under the federal Constitution, so long as those rights do not infringe on any federal constitutional rights.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruneyard_Shopping_Center_v._Robins

    So the US Constitution does not apply to censorship by private individual. Individual State Constitutions may broaden the rights if they choose.

    Since we're not a public shopping center in California, I don't think the case really applies to us.

    So, you're wrong.

    And by the way, don't be a dick... no need for such blatant name-calling.

     

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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 9th, 2011 @ 5:00pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I pointed out several ways that your analogy failed. And my little girl is more logical than the average adult, so thanks! :)

     

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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 9th, 2011 @ 5:01pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Right, because implying that everyone else isn't rational isn't a personal attack at all.

    That's as illogical as your analogy.

     

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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 9th, 2011 @ 5:07pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I said that the First Amendment did not apply to private citizens on private property.

    You said: That is plainly false. First amendment does restrict private entities, as, for instance, in "Pruneyard Shopping Center v. Robins" decision.

    Why don't you reread Robins and then see if you can tell me how this blog qualifies as semi-public property in California?

    Sorry, but it is a waste of time to argue with small petulant girls like yourself.

    Your misogyny is pathetic and telling. I sincerely hope that you get some counseling and take a logic class or two.

     

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    Tek Vahana (profile), Feb 9th, 2011 @ 6:00pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Narcissistic Personality Disorder is no substitute for critical thinking.

     

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    vivaelamor (profile), Feb 10th, 2011 @ 6:05pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I'm very late to this discussion (having only just re read this story) and am glad to see you educating people on why rape isn't just another crime. I wish I had time to post my opinion and to nitpick your application of statistics but I'll have to settle for cheering you on instead.

    Whether you call it rape culture or not doesn't matter, the fact is that a awful lot of men are violent to women and the only ones who stand a chance of changing that in our lifetime are other men. Saying 'rape is bad' is redundant but too many men seem to think that is where their responsibility ends. Until men stop making fun of feminists and joking about rape then they haven't even approached responsible. When they become feminists and start treating sexism like a cancer then they've started living up to their responsibility.

     

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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 10th, 2011 @ 8:53pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Saying 'rape is bad' is redundant but too many men seem to think that is where their responsibility ends.

    ^^ This. Thank you. :)

     

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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 10th, 2011 @ 9:01pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I wish I had time to post my opinion and to nitpick your application of statistics but I'll have to settle for cheering you on instead.

    Hehe, I'm very new to explaining rape culture to people who are privileged enough not to have the personal experiences that prove it's real. I tried looking for a Rape Culture 101 type thing written by or for a guy, but couldn't find one. :/

     

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    vivaelamor (profile), Feb 11th, 2011 @ 6:39am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "I tried looking for a Rape Culture 101 type thing written by or for a guy, but couldn't find one. :/"

    I'm not sure they even mention the term rape culture, but I can recommend two books by Shira Tarrant: Men and Feminism and Men Speak Out: Views on Gender Sex and Power. The first is a kind of primer on the subject of men and feminism and the second is a collection of narratives written by men who identify as feminists.

     

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    Spaceman Spiff (profile), Feb 13th, 2011 @ 10:32am

    Re: ...

    Well put. Couldn't have said it better myself, and I can say truthfully that rape (forced, statutory, or otherwise) isn't "nice", having been there, forced to do that...

     

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  162.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 13th, 2011 @ 11:31am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    You can go see every comment I've made.

    We can see every comment you've made as The Infamous Joe. However, how do we know which comments you may have made under other names?

    We cannot with you.

    Well, technically, you can. You just don't know which ones they are. :)

     

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    Any Mouse (profile), Feb 13th, 2011 @ 3:40pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Yeah. So he makes more in ONE SHOW than I make in 5 years, and that's chump change. You guys are total dicks, you know that? Median income in the US is $48k, and he might have made at least twice that in one night. Priority mismatch.

     

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    Dark Helmet (profile), Feb 14th, 2011 @ 9:19am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "How many women do you know? Think about it. Count it out, and then divide by six. That's how many women you know that have been raped."

    Traveled here after the "Favorite stories of the week" post and damn, Rose, you're waaaay to smart to make such a statistcally invalid claim. The 1/6 rape victim number is shocking to me and I'm having trouble believing it's true, but assuming it is, I'll just about gurantee you that the avg. TD reader isn't experiencing that number. Just think of all the socio-economic factors involved....

     

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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 14th, 2011 @ 11:29am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    ...damn, Rose, you're waaaay to smart to make such a statistcally invalid claim.

    You're too smart to knock my stats without even reviewing my data, yet here you are. :)

    As for my stats, they're from a study by the National Institute of Justice.

    The 1/6 rape victim number is shocking to me and I'm having trouble believing it's true...

    Yes, because we live in a rape culture.

    I'll just about gurantee you that the avg. TD reader isn't experiencing that number.

    The average Techdirt reader is male, so no, he's not experiencing that number. He's experiencing a number closer to 1 in 31.

    Just think of all the socio-economic factors involved....

    By 'socio-economic', do you mean 'poor'? If so, you might find it interesting to note that the NIJ found college women to be particularly at risk for sexual assault. Another study that I can find, if you like, notes the high risk of rape in the military, as well, which is another place that the particularly poor don't go.

    Of course, you totes may have meant something else. :P

     

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    The Infamous Joe (profile), Feb 14th, 2011 @ 11:50am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I'm interested to know the definition of rape to achieve that stat.

     

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    Dark Helmet (profile), Feb 14th, 2011 @ 12:05pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "You're too smart to knock my stats without even reviewing my data, yet here you are. :)"

    Actually, you ended up agreeing w/me on my problem w/your assertion, so I guess I am smart enough TO do that ;)....

    "Yes, because we live in a rape culture."

    Well, I'll certainly give the link a look when I get home, but all evidence suggests that virtually EVERY type of violent crime has been receding for the last twenty years or so, so would that indicate that the "Rape Culture" is actually receding?

    "The average Techdirt reader is male, so no, he's not experiencing that number. He's experiencing a number closer to 1 in 31."

    Ding ding ding! Dark Helmet, right again!

    "By 'socio-economic', do you mean 'poor'? If so, you might find it interesting to note that the NIJ found college women to be particularly at risk for sexual assault. Another study that I can find, if you like, notes the high risk of rape in the military, as well, which is another place that the particularly poor don't go."

    Oooooh, I'm cool with the first half and absolutely see the logic in it, but the second half not so much. Are you REALLY postulating that the backgrounds of the military as a whole are not those of a decidedly lower income tax bracket than the average American? Because methinks that would be a VERY bad position to take....

    Also, I was thinking more of all the rape/sexual assault that likely occurs in lower socio-economic classes on children/minors. I'll have to look up stats to see if it's correct, but I'm guessing you'll find more molestation for instance in the rural south and/or urban poor compared with middle-class suburbia....

     

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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 14th, 2011 @ 12:34pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I linked to the study in my comment, so feel free to peruse. :)

     

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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 14th, 2011 @ 12:43pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    ...so would that indicate that the "Rape Culture" is actually receding?

    Rape is a perpetually under-reported crime, so it's hard to say for sure... But I sincerely hope so.

    Ding ding ding! Dark Helmet, right again!

    Hehe, yes, you were right, but I wasn't wrong. :)

    Are you REALLY postulating that the backgrounds of the military as a whole are not those of a decidedly lower income tax bracket than the average American? Because methinks that would be a VERY bad position to take....

    I guess that would depend on your definition of 'average'. My position is based on

    a. personal experience and
    b. the fact that, until recently, the military was able to pick and choose candidates from applicants that were required to have high school diplomas.

    Since children from low-income families are

    a. less likley to have diplomas and
    b. less likely to pass their ASVAB with an acceptable score,

    I think it's safe to postulate that more military personnel come from middle class families than from lower class families.

    However, I'd be willing to change that position if I saw any hard data.

    Also, I was thinking more of all the rape/sexual assault that likely occurs in lower socio-economic classes on children/minors.

    I wouldn't take the position that rape occurs more often to children in lower-income families, and the idea that rape is something that happens to poor people is in itself a rape culture trope.

    But, again, hard data might change my opinion about that.

    I'll have to look up stats to see if it's correct, but I'm guessing you'll find more molestation for instance in the rural south and/or urban poor compared with middle-class suburbia....

    I'd be really interested to see stats that come to that (or any other) conclusion, so please post it if you find any. :)

     

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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 14th, 2011 @ 12:43pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Also, maybe we should move to the bottom, because this is getting hard to read. :)

     

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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 14th, 2011 @ 12:44pm

    Rape sucks.

    And a culture that denies it's prevalence sucks even harder.

    Discuss.

     

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    Dark Helmet (profile), Feb 14th, 2011 @ 1:29pm

    Continued:

    "Rape is a perpetually under-reported crime, so it's hard to say for sure... But I sincerely hope so."

    But the pendulum is beginning to swing the other direction. Rape education has caused it become LESS undereported and some strange combination of influences (IMO: general empowerment of women, lawsuit happy citizens, women entering the workforce, etc.) has led to rape and/or sexual crimes to be a huge problem with regard to false allegations. Please, PLEASE note that I don't think that those causes I listed are inherently bad, I'm just looking at causes, not judging them.

    "However, I'd be willing to change that position if I saw any hard data."

    Well, this article is pretty heavily sourced in the footnotes (http://prhome.defense.gov/mpp/ACCESSION%20POLICY/poprep98/html/chapter_7.html), and note that it is from a PR wing of the DoD (which makes me think their probably hedging their conclusions a bit in the favorable direction, but even THEY note:

    _Three systematic analyses of the socioeconomic composition of accessions during the volunteer period suggest that little has changed with the All Volunteer Force. All found that members of the military tended to come from backgrounds that were somewhat lower in socioeconomic status than the U.S. average, but that the differences between the military and the comparison groups were relatively modest.(5) These results have been confirmed in recent editions of this report, which portray a socioeconomic composition of enlisted accessions similar to the population as a whole, but with the top quartile of the population underrepresented.(6)_

    Note the prevalence of copout words, like "relatively". The bottom line is that even the DRAFT, which was highly accused of selection bias, had a more even background distribution than the volunteer force.

    "I wouldn't take the position that rape occurs more often to children in lower-income families, and the idea that rape is something that happens to poor people is in itself a rape culture trope."

    Okay, take this w/a grain of salt, because these doctors in the following study all seem to be from Indian colleges, but it's written in English, so I'm not sure exactly where the study was conducted. Additionally, if in India, I don't know how much an impact cultural differences play in the percentages:

    http://msl.rsmjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/45/3/256

    Note that most sexual crime victims come from low socio-economic class (no percentage given) and were fairly uneducated (88%). Also, a majority of them were unemployed (93.5%), although that again could be accounted for if it took place in India (I don't know a great deal about women's lib there).

     

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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 14th, 2011 @ 1:42pm

    Re: Continued:

    But the pendulum is beginning to swing the other direction. Rape education has caused it become LESS undereported...

    Citation needed.

    ...and some strange combination of influences (IMO: general empowerment of women, lawsuit happy citizens, women entering the workforce, etc.) has led to rape and/or sexual crimes to be a huge problem with regard to false allegations.

    Again, citation needed.

    The data I have suggests that false rape reports are less common than false car theft reports. And of course, no one looks at the rate of false car theft reports and uses it to judge victims of car theft.

    These are the important bits. Whether or not poor kids get raped more than kids with money is really not very relevant to the original conversation, which had to do with the prevalence of rape, a rape culture that denies that prevalence, and why rape is not the same as any other crime.

    Anyway, this is a good read on rape culture.

     

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  174.  
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    Dark Helmet (profile), Feb 14th, 2011 @ 2:47pm

    Re: Re: Continued:

    "But the pendulum is beginning to swing the other direction. Rape education has caused it become LESS undereported...

    Citation needed."

    Oh, come on. This is obviously a passionate issue for you, but let's not get silly. A myriad of social changes have created a culture at least SOMEWHAT more conducive to reporting rape: empowerment of women, civil judgements in sex crime cases, education of such crimes, police groups becoming better equipped to specifically handling those types of cases, etc. No one is saying rape isn't underreported. It is. It's just becoming less so. Given that reported rape crimes are historically low. But what the hell, you asked for a citation, so I might as well give you one (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/18/AR2006061800610.html)

    FTA: "Several decades after the establishment of rape crisis hotlines, greater sensitivity toward rape victims by police and prosecutors, adoption of policies by news organizations to not identify victims and limitations on how much a victim's sexual history can be placed in evidence during trial, the Justice Department estimates that 61 percent of rapes and sexual assaults are still not reported. But that is down from 69 percent in 1996, and experts say the trend remains downward."

    Rape: WAY down. Unreported rape: less down, but still down. For a rape culture, we're sure raping a lot less women....

    "Again, citation needed."

    False Allegation by Charles McDowell
    Study of false rape allegation. The study concludes that 27 percent of all rape charges are false. Chicago Lawyer June 1985
    FBI Academy 1985

    His study summarized his conclusion that presently some 27% or rape charges are false. He did NOT take into account whether the reporter KNOWINGLY filed false charges, but does note that as a global matter this statistic is waaaaaaay up from thirty years ago in the 70's. Again, since the 70's, rape way down, false rape allegations up.

    "The data I have suggests that false rape reports are less common than false car theft reports."

    I saw the same statistic. It appears to come from a rape victims advocacy group. Certainly no one is unbiased, and I don't know for sure that that group is hedging the data in any way....but do we need to have a discussion on RIAA/MPAA piracy statistics here?

    "And of course, no one looks at the rate of false car theft reports and uses it to judge victims of car theft."

    Probably because one involves a horrific violent crime and the other is essentially a matter of insurance fraud. Kind of a silly comparison.

    "Whether or not poor kids get raped more than kids with money is really not very relevant to the original conversation, which had to do with the prevalence of rape, a rape culture that denies that prevalence, and why rape is not the same as any other crime."

    Sorry, but nonsense. You threw out a statistic, telling the person you were talking to that 1 of every 6 women he knew was raped. That was a garbage assertion and unbecoming of someone who generally argues well and reasonably. The statistics appear to show that rape is in massive decline. While certainly not a disappeared problem, that coupled with what appear to be fairly clear socio-economic factors suggest that you were talking to the wrong people about it. Again, my sources could be wrong, but based on the multiple sources I'm seeing, particularly as compared across multiple countries that have similarly empowered female populations, I doubt it.

     

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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 15th, 2011 @ 6:24am

    Re: Re: Re: Continued:

    Oh, come on. ...let's not get silly.

    Yes, let's not.

    Because the same myriad of changes that have supposedly made it easier to report rape in general, especially the empowerment of women, have also made it easier for rapists to rape women whom are not in a position to take advantage of said changes, such as women in the military, in high-powered jobs, etc. And, of course, for poor women, no real changes have been made.

    Your citation shows an estimate of 8%, using two studies with different methodology. In addition, although the small part that you quoted tends to agree with you, the article itself is all over the map.

    If you want to show me a statistic, then show me a statistic, DH, not a news article about competing statistics.

    Again, let's not get silly.

    His study summarized his conclusion that presently some 27% or rape charges are false. He did NOT take into account whether the reporter KNOWINGLY filed false charges...

    This sentence doesn't tell you that his study was incredibly flawed?

    Anyway, in McDowell's study, he only classified an allegation as 'proved' if 'the overwhelming preponderance of the evidence support the allegation so strongly that there really is no other logical conclusion'.

    Of course, the only cases in which this would happen are the 'stranger pulls a woman from the bushes' type rape, which is the least common kind of rape, and completely exclude spouse rape, rape in which the victim was unable to consent, and so on. In addition, this study specifically looked at military cases, and is not a view of rape in the general population.

    I saw the same statistic. It appears to come from a rape victims advocacy group. Certainly no one is unbiased, and I don't know for sure that that group is hedging the data in any way....but do we need to have a discussion on RIAA/MPAA piracy statistics here?

    If anyone needs a lecture on MPAA statistics in this conversation, it's you. I mean, aside from the news article about a statistic instead of the actual study that provided it, you seem to have picked the oldest, most biased study available. And by biased, I mean by a proud misogynist with a flawed methodology. Of course, this may be the only study that agrees with you, and not me.

    Probably because one involves a horrific violent crime and the other is essentially a matter of insurance fraud. Kind of a silly comparison.

    No, it's not a silly comparison. Rape is the only crime in which we use the small number of completely unrelated false allegations to judge the suspects, rather than the evidence at hand. That has nothing to do with the severity of the crime, and everything to do with our culture.

    And rape is not always, or even usually, a violent crime. Take, for instance, people whom are cognitively disabled, either temporarily or permanently, and people whom are raped by someone in a position of trust, like teachers, relatives, police officers, etc. These people don't fight back and some even 'consent', which makes it not 'rape-rape' in the minds of most folks. (Especially when the media steps in and report that the teacher, relative, officer, etc. is charged with 'having sex with' a minor, their student, their child, etc., as though you can be charged with 'having sex' and not 'rape'.)

    Your characterization of rape as a violent crime is, in itself, a rape culture trope.

    That was a garbage assertion and unbecoming of someone who generally argues well and reasonably.

    I wrote out a statistic that is supported by evidence that you trashed before you even saw it. That, and your comments that followed it (An article about a statistic? Really?), have quite clearly shown your bias on this topic, which is unbecoming of someone who generally argues well and reasonably.

    The statistics appear to show that rape is in massive decline.

    The statistics do not show this.

    While certainly not a disappeared problem, that coupled with what appear to be fairly clear socio-economic factors suggest that you were talking to the wrong people about it.

    I'm sorry? I was unaware that there were 'right' or 'wrong' people to discuss things with. Can you expound on that idea, please? And be sure to explain exactly how answering someone's query can be 'wrong'.

    Again, my sources could be wrong, but based on the multiple sources I'm seeing, particularly as compared across multiple countries that have similarly empowered female populations, I doubt it.

    What 'multiple' sources? You have one article that discusses competition statistics, with zero methodology or links to the actual studies, and one old, military-specific study with flawed methodology.

    I mean, technically, that's multiple, but it's sort of a silly characterization.

    If you have multiple sources, link them and let's discuss. But honestly, please, and not from a defensive stance. No one has accused you of raping anyone, or of being personally responsible for the culture that we live in.

     

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    The Infamous Joe (profile), Feb 15th, 2011 @ 6:48am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Continued:

    Temporarily cognitively disabled?

     

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    The Infamous Joe (profile), Feb 15th, 2011 @ 7:12am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Continued:

    Temporarily cognitively disable?

     

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    The Infamous Joe (profile), Feb 15th, 2011 @ 9:14am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Continued:

    I have a few questions regarding this wall of text your just threw out:

    Your characterization of rape as a violent crime is, in itself, a rape culture trope.

    The study you linked (which, by the way, never explicitly states the definition of rape like I asked) deals with forcible rape, stalking and physical assault. So, that study is just another brick in the so-called rape culture, I assume?

    Take, for instance, people whom are cognitively disabled, either temporarily or permanently

    I am unclear as to what you mean by temporarily cognitively disabled. While you're telling me your definition of rape, please include what this means, too.

    I find it's best to lay out the foundations, especially definitions, before any discussion. It usually saves a lot of time and frustration.

    Thanks!

     

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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 15th, 2011 @ 3:53pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Continued:

    Yes. Someone who has taken a prescription opiate or has been slipped a roofie, for instance, would be temporarily cognitively disabled and unable to consent.

    I'll type in the definition of rape later tonight, when I have more time.

     

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    The Infamous Joe (profile), Feb 15th, 2011 @ 4:12pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Continued:

    Wow, I thought my poor underpowered droid was acting up. Turns out I triple posted.

    Anyway, what about girls who get sloppy drunk? When they make a poor decision to sleep with some guy, is that rape?

     

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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 6:23am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Continued:

    Well, first, if a girl is sloppy drunk, someone should call Children's Services. And if the guy that she poorly decides to sleep with is an adult, then someone should call the police as well.

    But you probably meant adult female and not adolescent female. :P

    Anyway, all snark aside, to answer the obvious question, if you make a poor decision and consent to an act that you later regret, that's on you. This is true whether you are drunk or sober. I've seen people get extremely randy while drunk (and sober) and hang all over (and sometimes sexually assault) other party-goers and then go home with the first person who consents. In these cases, that person is obviously enthusiastically consenting to intercourse.

    To answer the underlying question, a woman who has a drink (or seven) does not give up her bodily autonomy.

    Part of the problem here comes from the social narrative that says 'No means no.'. This was a step in the right direction, but not nearly far enough, because if they're passed out, been slipped a roofie, etc., they can't say no, can they? And if you pull a drunk woman into a bedroom, remove her clothing, and have sex with her, and she hasn't said yes, then you've engaged in intercourse without her consent, and that's rape.

    Another problem here is the view that a woman who drinks deserves what she gets afterward. This is akin to saying that a woman who wears a sexy outfit is 'asking for it'. Sure, the drunk/sexy woman might be asking for it, but that doesn't mean that she's asking anyone who might possibly want her.

    Anyway, it doesn't matter that she was too 'sloppy drunk' or too afraid to say no, because the important part is that she didn't say yes.

    To look at it a different way, what about a woman who takes a prescription opiate for hereditary migraine disease? If she wanders downstairs to the kitchen of her sorority and is pulled into a bedroom by a guy, stumbling and maybe giggling a bit and not very cognizant of what's going on because she's taken a prescription opiate, and then he removes her clothing and has sex with her without her consent and she's too messed up to fight back, is that rape?

    The obvious connection between those two scenarios is that the word yes was absent from both. The underlying issue is that people are conditioned to want to punish the drunk woman for daring to take a drink/wear sexy clothing/go to a party/do anything that 'nice girls don't do'.

    Women in our culture are taught to be careful about what they wear, how they wear it, how they carry themselves, where they walk, when they walk there, with whom they walk, whom they trust, what they do, where they do it, with whom they do it, what they drink, how much they drink, whether they make eye contact, if they're alone, if they're with a stranger, if they're in a group, if they're in a group of strangers, if it's dark, if the area is unfamiliar, if they're carrying something, how they carry it, what kind of shoes they're wearing in case they have to run, what kind of purse they carry, what jewelry they wear, what time it is, what street it is, what environment it is, how many people they sleep with, what kind of people they sleep with, who their friends are, to whom they give their number, who's around when the delivery guy comes, to get an apartment where they can see who's at the door before they can see they, to check before they open the door to the delivery guy, to own a dog or a dog-sound-making machine, to get a roommate, to take self-defense, to always be alert always pay attention always watch their back always be aware of their surroundings and never let their guard down for a moment lest they be sexually assaulted and if they are and didn't follow all the rules it's their fault.

    And not the fault of the person who engaged in intercourse without hearing the word yes.

    And that, Joe, is a rape culture.

    To recap: If she didn't say yes, it's rape.

     

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    The Infamous Joe (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 7:01am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Continued:

    Do you mean literally saying. "Yes"? Because I don't recall ever explicitly asking "do you consent to having sex with me", but I don't consider myself a rapist.

     

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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 3:03pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Continued:

    Do you mean literally saying. "Yes"?

    Personally, I believe that the key is enthusiastic consent. Right now, the standard says that silence is consent, which is really silly. Silence more often means coercion, fear, or downright unconsciousness.

    Anyway, this consent may be in the form of her actually verbalizing, or in her ardent response to your advance. If she hasn't verbally confirmed her willingness and/or isn't ardently responding*, then you probably need to stop and confirm that she wants to have sex. If she's cognitively impaired in some way, like she's been drinking or taken some medication, then you probably need to verbally confirm that she wants to have sex.

    What alot of men don't realize is how intimidating men can be, and how much society tells us wimmins to be nice, not to make a fuss, and - more alarmingly - not to fight back, because you'll be hurt less if you just let him finish. This quiet - and sometimes unintended - coercion is exactly why men should take five seconds to ask their partners to confirm their desire for intercourse.

    (Of course, there are some women who have internalized the idea that they would be bad or slutty for wanting to be touched, but who want it nonetheless. You would annoy someone in that mindset by making them accountable for their own participation in touching or sex. However, that's what needs to happen, for your protection, at least.)

    It's much harder for a rape culture to exist when everyone takes responsibility for what they want and clearly conveys that to their potential partners, and everyone respects everyone else's boundaries.

    Anyway, I have no idea why someone would want to be with someone who didn't know what they wanted, or who wanted it to happen to them somehow without their cognitive participation. I'm bisexual and there's nothing sexier with either gender than someone who knows what they want, and isn't ashamed of it.

    *Wiggling may not count as ardently responding.

    Because I don't recall ever explicitly asking "do you consent to having sex with me"...

    Try it sometime. Or, you know, a variation like 'Does x feel good? Do you like y?". If you already do that, then congrats! The people you're sleeping with are enthusiastically consenting. Way to not be a rapist. :)

    ...I don't consider myself a rapist.

    One study of college-ages males showed that 1 in 8 of them admitted to intentionally and repeatedly targeting inebriated college-age women, because they would be unable to decline intercourse. Again, they repeatedly and intentionally found women that were too drunk to consent (or even stand up), and had sex with them. Yet they didn't consider themselves rapists, either. (More like opportunists, eh? Hurr hurr hurr. /sarcasm)

    I'm not saying that you're a rapist. What I am saying is that rapists - especially pedophiles - don't always think of themselves as rapists, just like many abusers don't think of themselves as abusers.

    "I only hit her when she needs it."

    "I can quit anytime."

    "That wasn't rape. I mean, she was really drunk but she didn't stop me, now did she?"

    Or even, in the case of children:

    "S/he wanted it! I love them! I would never hurt Susie/Johnny!"

     

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    vivaelamor (profile), Feb 20th, 2011 @ 9:18pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "As for my stats, they're from a study by the National Institute of Justice."

    Just to clarify, the issue I was hinting at with my earlier post has nothing to do with the absolute numbers involved, but the statements that one in any six women in the US is likely to be a rape victim.

    For example, take a hypothetical country with a population of 600 women. In that country there are six states, each with a population of 100 women. In one of those states the number of victims is 100% of the population, or simply 100. The statistic for the country is one in six women is a rape victim, but five out of the six states have no reported rapes.

    While obviously that is an important technical point, there are also reasons why it's an important point for the issue of combating rape. The idea of one in six women close to them being victims may seem unrealistic to people, making the factual evidence less credible to them. It suggests the rape rate is equal across all populations, which ignores places where rape has been effectively reduced or where rape is most problematic.

     

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    vivaelamor (profile), Feb 21st, 2011 @ 11:32am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Continued:

    'Do you mean literally saying. "Yes"? Because I don't recall ever explicitly asking "do you consent to having sex with me", but I don't consider myself a rapist.'

    I think the point there is the uncertainty. If you're unable to tell whether you have someone's consent, if there is any doubt in your mind then it's your responsibility to find out for certain.

    The legal aspect is hard. However, knowing whether you've got someone's consent is merely a matter of being conscientious and should be as much part of your routine as using a condom, for example. How you go about it should depend on your partner, not anyone else's opinion.

     

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    vivaelamor (profile), Feb 21st, 2011 @ 11:49am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Continued:

    "The study you linked (which, by the way, never explicitly states the definition of rape like I asked) deals with forcible rape, stalking and physical assault."

    I'm unsure which specific study you are referring to, otherwise I would have a look for the definition they are using.

    "So, that study is just another brick in the so-called rape culture, I assume?"

    Well spotted. This is why there should be a more open process for producing these studies and the data they use should be more publicly accessible. Often the problem with rape statistics is indeed the definition of rape, not only of those conducting the studies but also those gathering the data.

     

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    David Guetta Nothing But The Beat, Jul 25th, 2011 @ 8:34pm

    Love His Music

    Nice Post. I am a big fan of David Guetta. I can't wait till 30 aug 2011 when his new album launches Nothing but The Beat.

     

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