So the question is…

How do we live up to our expectations and treaties while stop looking hypocritical?

I bet if we were to dissolve the CIA, FBI, and DHS might help with that obligation considerably.

Again, another link to another harpers story, which is already more than a month old, about Spanish involvement. This new story isn’t about wikileaks directly, but about what was reported on Polish Radio.

It should be noted that both stories are written by the same guy, and contain plenty of wishy-washy terms like “apparently”, which is a nice way of saying he is filling in the blanks. Are these actual news stories, or opinion columns? Yup, it’s a US based lawyer writing an opinion piece.

See? This is the same problem I have with TD. Pile enough opinion up, and others will refer to it as fact.

Wow…

You REALLY stepped into it for your first post didn’t you?

The US has a false sense of security governed by the TSA.
We allow for covert assassinations through the CIA.
We are strong armed and bullied through the FBI.
We lose our rights through the DHS.

And yet, you’re okay with this?

Maybe it’s time to read a little more information on the four subjects above rather than come to uninformed conclusions that make you look rather dumb.

AKA tl;dr, whine

What are you trying to argue here AC? — That you can’t see how Wikileaks has anything to do with this story,… and because TD said the source was Wikileaks rather than Polish radio or Harper’s, therefore TD must be an unreliable opinion site?

FYI–
Following the Harper’s references it is apparent that this concerns the El-Masri cable issue, discussed here by the Washington Post.
The actual text of the cable can be read here.

Again, check your facts before you spout.

Dear DJ,

You are right about the U.S. Military.

BUT

Can you say the same about the U.S. Government ?

They’re just torturing people. It’s not like they downloaded a song or something!

Hopefully, the actions our respective countries take which bend treaty rules, are justified in the results

sorry, but the ends don’t justify the means.

you say rules have to be broken to achieve peace. but the USG is not interested in peace, just more war. i’m an american, and i love my COUNTRY and its PEOPLE, but not the current government. it has become the military-industrial complex we were warned about. it is becoming increasingly tyrannical and violent, sacrificing all for the illusion of “security”–sacrificing our freedoms, sacrificing our economic solvency, sacrificing our soldiers’ lives, sacrificing the lives of millions of people around the globe. meanwhile, we are distracted from the real issues by partisan theatrics and mass-produced entertainment.

so no, we’re not such a great country anymore. maybe someday we will be again, though.

USA is not like any other government. Thanks to the self-delusion of American Exceptionalism, many in office believe religiously that they have a mandate to bring civilization to the barbarians.

This is White Man’s Burden 2.0.

If a large Taliban army came to US soil trying to eliminate our military and establish a new government through force, I’d call them terrorists, albeit on a larger scale.

What do you think Iraqis think of the Good Ole U.S.?? Not very highly I would imagine.

If we defend ourselves, that’s cool. Toppling other nation’s governments preemptively and without just cause is bullshit and essentially amounts to grand scale terrorism. Establish a government suitable and favorable to us or we blow you and everything around you up. Is that not terrorism to you? Have fun in your blissful, boy-howdy, ‘patriotic’ dreamworld.

Remember also that as the US dissolves other countries subversively, ‘diplomatically’ and through sheer force, they also chisel away every freedom we are entitled to. They run us now, instead of the other way around.

America! Fuck Yeah!

Pff

It really stinks that so many people judge an entire country of people, on a governments action. Thus, war, and unnecessary loss of innocent life,

Yes it does, especially when it is the USA judging IRAQ, the entire country, on a governments action, (that is was found out later they did not even DO !!!).. (ie WMD’s)

My country is great, if you are not violating humanitarian rights, then so is yours.

So are you saying that the US of A is not violating humanitarian rights ? or are you saying that even though your country is violation humanitarian rights, it is still great ?

If you’re from USA and putting it down – LEAVE.

You ‘free speech’ and constitution tell me, that if I am a US citizen I have a RIGHT to ‘put it down’, that is set out in my constitution.. have you heard of that,, your constitution?

Do you sleep good at night? Do you ever wonder why? Hopefully, the actions our respective countries take which bend treaty rules, are justified in the results – and done in only extreme cases in efforts to PROTECT our, and our allies, citizens.

So you sleep well at night !! because why ?? oh, I see because your respective countries ‘take which bend treaty rules’.

Oh so you sleep well at night because your country bends treaty rules ???

But only in extreem cases to protect out allies, ….

So its OK, to do what you like, break the rules, as long as you feel you are right !!!.

What happens then if you feel like you are right (like with weapons of mass destruction), but you KNOW that you are wrong, (ie you know the truth), but you act anyway, based on a known lie, and faulsehood. Yes you still disregard the rules and act.

So what if you lived in Iraq, would you feel the same way about your government, and believe (rightly) they are right in their beliefs and idealogies ? would you defend them in the same way ?

IS it right for the USA to invade Iraq based of the false premise that there were weapons of mass destruction, when at the time of the invasion it was clear to the US government, the UK Government, and the Australian Government that there were NO WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION in Iraq ?

Did that stop the US invading Iraq ?? hell no.

Did the fact the US government was lying to its people, to allow this invasion make you think for a second ? I guess not.

I bet you are one of those (few) people left who still think Iraq has or had weapons of mass destruction, but after 10 plus year’s, NONE HAVE EVER BEEN FOUND !!!.

It was a blatent lie, and those that made that lie have since admitted it..

I do not feel safer at night because of the USA, particularly if I resided in the USA. The US does not really care about the safty of its citizens, after all it has very free gun laws, that help keep your numbers down.

The USA does not generally need any reason to do anything, and if no easy reason is found, they will simply make something up. (like WMD’s) and invade anyway..

As for this haveing anything to do with wikileaks, this ‘special rendition’ tricks was an attempt at finding and exploiting legal loopholes, same as Gitmo, was in another country so it was not under US law.

Same as “enemy combatants” is an invented term to get around international laws and rules of engagement.

As for ‘treaties’ the US has a long and proud history of disregarding treaties, and it does not take wikileaks to reveal them.

Just as it did not take wikileaks to reveal special rendition and gitmo, we are all aware of what has and is happending, wikileaks did not add anything to this.

And if you think diplomats would not be discussing these issues you do not understand what a diplomat is..

A diplomat is not someone who is there just to agree with and look good in another country.

They are that other countries representative, of that government, countries and governments like to work with each other in trade, politics, governments, policy, laws and so on.

Its not pressure, its help, its working with other countries to understand that countries goals, desires, and to make them work with your own countries goals and desires and future, and laws..

What do you think diplomats do if they do not work to allow countries, and governments work better with each other.

It stops things like wars, it solves problems before they get out of hand, it helps people who are in that country but who are citizens of the other country if they have problems.

diplomats balance, cultural, political, social, and international concepts throughtout the world, they work to solve differences and issues between countries, between the laws of various countries, and they make the world work in a much more efficient, and viable, and social manner.

What do people here who are critical of what has been said that diplomats do,, what do you think Diplomats DO ???

What do they do, do they sit in their embassy and do nothing, not talk to the local government, not talk about their laws, and rules and ideals, dont they talk about how the two countries can work more closely together for mutual benefit ?

What do you think a diplomat does ?

Ofcourse, sometimes they apply pressure, sometimes they would have pressure applied to them, that is negiotation, that is the diplomatic process.

That is what happens in virtually every human encounter, people ask questions, make suggestions, give reason for those suggests, receive suggestions, and their reasons, they discuss those issues and they come to a diplomatic agreement. they find common ground, they may not agree on every issue, but they also may agree on some issues.

Progress has been made, and that progress would not have been possible if it were not for diplomats doing what diplomats do, take pressure, apply pressure, make arguments, present idea’s, receive idea’s, make agreements that are mutually benificial and so on.

A diplomat that just applied pressure, or wrote threatening letter to politicians is not a diplomat and would not stay in that position for very long.

one that engages the country they are in, debates, asseses, advises, and takes advice, works out fair and even rule and ideas and so on.

USA is strong, and sometimes wrong, but always there to help. Does the rest of the world really want THAT to change?

The US is not that strong, it is in massive financial problems right now, it cannot make ends meet, it cannot balance its budget, it cannot affort to care for its aged and ill people. It owes trillions of dollars to china, and it appears it will be many years until the US is able to survive without borrowing huge sums of money overseas.

US manufacturing is collapsing, US housing market has collapsed, US financial markets have collapsed.

You are spending $10 billion dollars per month on a war in Iraq that was based on a lie.

Yet you give tax cuts to the mega rich, and offer no economic stumulation to reboot your failed economy.

Normally a war is good for the US economy, historically so.. WW2 got you out of the great depression.

But that does not work when you borrow the money for that war off china, you are not stimulating your economy, you ARE stimulating China’s economy, and Iraq’s, and the middle east’s.

But not the US’s, The US was stong once, and yes, often WRONG, but certainly NOT always there to help.. (were they helping iraq ?)

Does the rest of the world really want that to change, ??

HELL YES,, my god, what are you yanks thinking ?? ‘lets borrow billions of dollars off china to find a war in iraq, and let our domestic economy collapse as a result’..

good work,

there are many countries that would be quite happy if the US or A did not ‘come and help’ them !!!..

ww2,Bonsnia, middle east, iraq, iran, vietnam, mexico, cuba, america, india, afganistan…. (yes you have had wars with yourself), most you lose, most cost ALOT..

The difference is the US military are not in the US, they are in a foreign country.

so what they are saying, “if we invade your country, and you fight back, you are a terrorist, and we can do with you what we like”.

No USA, it does not work that way, just because someone fights back when you invade their country does not make them wrong and you write.

If a large group from Iraq, flew over to new york and attacked it, would you fight back or would you accept the attack as OK ?

You would fight back, of course. so why is it wrong for someone in Iraq to fight back when they are invaded.

Even if it is by the USA, does it matter, an invasion is an invasion, you can lie down and die, or you can fight back.

But fighting back does not make you wrong, or a terrorist, or a ‘really bad person’.. It might be considered that those that are invading could be considered terrorists, and really bad people..

So its ok if you do it to someone else, but its not ok if someone does it to you..

Has America ever fought anyone that signed the Geneva Convention?

What most would describe as torture happens every day right here in the US, perpatrated by local police officers. Where is the outrage in the streets of NYC or LA or Chicago? Get a clue and grow up.

props for the Team America ref 😀

On 7 October, reports the PAP news agency, the US informed prosecutors that the motion had been rejected on the basis of the international Agreement on Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters and that the U.S. authorities consider the matter ?to be closed?.

According to the agreement, a country has the right to refuse to provide legal assistance if the execution of the request would encroach on this country?s security or another interest of this country.

That is what they all agreed too, so what is your problem ?

They did not break any treaty and they did not break any agreement, they had previously agreed that any country could refuse to help on this basis, and they accepted that agreement.

So, Mike once again, you are not being very accurate, or truthfull here are you !!!

The US complied with the set out agreements, and did not break any rules or laws, or agreements.

That is what can happen when you dont follow the fair rules of engagement, and when you consider it fair game if they ‘did it first’.

In world war 2, when germany was bombing england, it was a navigation error from the German pilots, and on the first night, 1 or 2 bombs fell in the wrong place, not the industrial area, but in populated area’s.

Hitler was furious about this error, because he guessed what was going to happen next, that’s right, Churchill ordered a blanket bombin of dresden, or berlin or somewhere that has a big city full of civilians.

So the blitz was started by england, in retaliation for a navigation error from a newbie german pilot.

So england, USA and many others, will kill innocent citizens when they feel it is right.

But in modern times, with smart technologies and up to date Intel, it should be possible to reduce civilian deaths.

but if you want to change a country, its society, its religions, its government, and everything else, then you have little choice, but to clean house, so you can start again on their behalf, if they like it, or want it or not.

Too bad, the US sticks its nose in and you know you’re country is screwed.. you will be assimilated, resistance is futile.. you might as well wait, the US will seft destruct before it is destroyed by a hostile outside force.

China will just ask for its loans back, and you’re screwed.. you’ll just have to hand over your country..

The USA will default on its Treasuries too.