Looks Like Visa Program For Science & Tech Grads Isn't Really Being Used For The Best & Brightest
from the unfortunate dept
theodp writes in to let us know:
“By enacting a controversial ’emergency’ rule in 2008 allowing foreign students who earn degrees in science, technology, engineering or math (STEM) in the U.S. to work for American employers for 29 months of Optional Practical Training (OPT) without the need for an H-1B visa, Department of Homeland Security Chief Michael Chertoff boasted he was ‘giving U.S. companies a competitive advantage in the world economy.’ Microsoft applauded the move, saying the program would allow U.S. companies to recruit and retain the ‘best’ science and tech students educated at the top U.S. universities. And last April, the DHS quashed a legal challenge to the program, telling the U.S. Supreme Court that ‘the public interest would be disserved’ without the program.
Noticeably absent from the DHS brief, however, were any details on the two-year old program’s participants. But now, a Computerworld report suggests why the agency may have been less-than-eager to share any details with the Court. Not only is the DHS program dominated by for-profit Stratford University, whose 727 approved OPT STEM extension requests is more than twice the combined total of the entire Ivy League – Brown (26), Columbia (105), Cornell (90), Dartmouth (18), Harvard (27), Princeton (16), Penn (50), and Yale (9) – it turns out the program is also being embraced by IT outsourcing and offshoring companies like Kelly Services, whose entities snagged about 50 approvals, more than twice the combined total of Google (15), Amazon.com (2), Yahoo (2), and Facebook (3). More details on the 20,000 OPT STEM extension requests filed since mid-2008 can be found in Computerworld’s interactive database.”
I’ll admit that I was a supporter of this program when it was first announced. I believe that we should absolutely be opening our borders to those skilled in science and technology, and keep them working in the US so that they’re working to improve US competitiveness, rather than competing with US firms elsewhere. Unfortunately, it certainly looks like (as with the H-1B program) that it is not being used in the way it should be used. This is unfortunate, as anti-immigration folks will simply use this as evidence to block important, useful and job-creating immigration, insisting that all such efforts are abuses. That’s not true, but when a program like this is not really being used for the best and brightest, then it’s been improperly designed.
Filed Under: immigration, science, technology, visa
Comments on “Looks Like Visa Program For Science & Tech Grads Isn't Really Being Used For The Best & Brightest”
That name keeps popping up...
Michael Chertoff? Again?
This guy has his greasy fingerprints all over government programs.
Poison Cup
Why not follow your assertions to their logical extreme and replace _all_ American workers with cheaper foreign labor? The business interests of a country are not automagically aligned with the interests of the citizenry. Using cheaper labor to depress wages will do the opposite of making businesses more competitive by forcing native workers to chase undiluted wages outside of the country.
Re: Poison Cup
Right back at you.
Why not follow your assertion to their logical extremes? Remove all educated jobs from the USA.
Here’s where your logic fails. Someone comes into the USA for education. They pay $80k for an engineering degree. Yay, we made $80k. Now we kick that person out of our country. That person goes to ANOTHER country and bring in that country $200k per year.
I don’t know about you, but my bring in money for my company. The products and services I offer to my companies customers is worth well over double what my company pays me.
Good Engineers and Programmers are a limited resource world wide. By kicking them out of our country just means they have to go to another country and make that country money.
Also, because of the lack of total engineers and programmers in the USA, our education is getting worse and worse for these degrees. China is offering better education for engineering and computer science. The more people they educate, the more people stay and the more money the country makes as a whole.
Uneducated labor can be out sourced, educated labor cannot.
Re: Re: Poison Cup
This assumes that the person with the degree acquired it *here* and is earning a wage *here*. This is patently false in reality.
It’s not a lack of engineers or scientists, it’s a lack of wages commensurate with living here. Apparently, IT is viewed as a commodity, some technological equivalent of janitorial services, because top jobs are impossible to acquire if you have no means of being employed at the lower rungs of your career ladder.
This is the missing element in every argument, every single one: if you remove all of the junior positions, you create a gap in the career ladder. Outsource your mid-career spots, a larger gap. This, and only this, is causing the artificial scarcity of native talent. Natives do not view a science or CS career as a $35000/ yr entry-level spot. I made that in 1995. However, the billable rates and commensurate starting spots are just around that, and most American graduates just don’t see the ROI of their $80k education in a $35k job; even with a longer view, they correctly perceive the attack on our own people from corporate employers and the local industry.
Re: Re: Busting the Myth that Americans Can't Cut It
1. American 4th and 8th graders outperformed their classmates in Germany in the latest round of TIMSS, the prestigious math and science international test.[1] India and China , the two countries where tech companies recruit most from, don?t participate in TIMSS[2].
2. Black Computer Science graduates essentially reached parity in 2006; no longer can they be dismissed as an ?under-represented minority?.[3]
3. Over the past decade, US colleges and universities graduated roughly three times more scientists and engineers than were employed in the growing science and technology workforce.[4]
4. American?s don?t need science degrees to work in science and tech jobs, especially Information Technology. 40% of these jobs were held by liberal arts graduates from academic years 1997-2000.[5]
America Needs Equal Opportunity to Be Competitive:
1. “H-1B workers may be hired even when a qualified U.S. worker wants the job, and a U.S. worker can be displaced from the job in favor of the foreign worker,” according to theDepartment of Labor’s Strategic Plan, Fiscal Years 2006-2011.
2. Americans face “H1-b Only” or ” OPT Only” want ads for US job openings; many advertising free training and green cards.[6]
3. Silicon Valley now has fewer White, Black, Hispanic and Female IT professionals than in 2000.[7]
4. 55% of America ?s ?best and brightest? STEM graduates, those with the higest GPAs, didn’t land jobs in STEM fields in the late ?90s.[5]
5. Microsoft, Intel, Goldman Sachs and other American companies have increased their hiring abroad while laying off thousands of Americans in 2009.[8]
It’s time to play fair now. We?ve got an over abundance of experienced tech professionals and an oversupply of new science & technology graduates whom we have paid dearly to educate.
IT pros have the power to shape the circumstances of their lives. Join the expanding political trend to re-write corporate visa programs like H-1b, L-1 and OPT.
All discriminate against American talent, facilitate the offshoring of top-dollar white collar jobs, force us to train our foreign replacements, and displace us from our jobs in favor of foreign citizens.
[1] New York Times, 12/09/08
[2] http://timssandpirls.bc.edu/
[3] Nov/Dec 2008 issue of NSBE Magazine/Career Engineer.
[4] Lindsay Lowell, Director of Policy Studies, Georgetown University
[5] “Steady as She Goes Three Generations of Students through the Science and Engineering Pipeline”, Heldrich Center for Workforce Development, Rutgers University [6] Businessweek, March 31, 2009 [7] Mercury News, 2/13/2010 [8]http://www.businessweek.com/interactive_reports/1210_h1b.html?sortCol=benefits&sortOrder=1&pageNum=1&resultNum=50
Re: Re: Poison Cup - Busting the Myth of Inferiority in Sci & Tech
America?s Got Talent:
1. American 4th and 8th graders outperformed their German classmates in the latest round of TIMSS, the prestigious math and science international test.[1] India and China , the two countries where tech companies recruit most from, don?t participate in TIMSS[2].
2. Black Computer Science graduates essentially reached parity in 2006; no longer can they be dismissed as an ?under-represented minority?.[3]
3. Over the past decade, US colleges and universities graduated roughly three times more scientists and engineers than were employed in the growing science and technology workforce.[4]
4. American?s don?t need science degrees to work in science and tech jobs, especially Information Technology. 40% of these jobs were held by liberal arts graduates from academic years 1997-2000.[5]
America Needs Equal Opportunity to Be Competitive:
1. “H-1B workers may be hired even when a qualified U.S. worker wants the job, and a U.S. worker can be displaced from the job in favor of the foreign worker,” according to theDepartment of Labor’s Strategic Plan, Fiscal Years 2006-2011.
2. Americans face “H1-b Only” or ” OPT Only” want ads for US job openings; many advertising free training and green cards.[6]
3. Silicon Valley now has fewer White, Black, Hispanic and Female IT professionals than in 2000.[7]
4. 55% of America ?s ?best and brightest? STEM graduates, those with the higest GPAs, didn’t land jobs in STEM fields in the late ?90s.[5]
5. Microsoft, Intel, Goldman Sachs and other American companies have increased their hiring abroad while laying off thousands of Americans in 2009.[8]
It’s time to play fair now. We?ve got an over abundance of experienced tech professionals and an oversupply of new science & technology graduates whom we have paid dearly to educate.
IT pros can shape the circumstances they face by joining the emerging political trend to end legal employment discrimination against American talent.
This will also stop the offshoring of top-dollar white collar jobs, end the despicable practice of forcing us to train our foreign replacements, and prevent companies from displacing us from our jobs in favor of foreign citizens.
[1] New York Times, 12/09/08
[2] http://timssandpirls.bc.edu/
[3] Nov/Dec 2008 issue of NSBE Magazine/Career Engineer.
[4] Lindsay Lowell, Director of Policy Studies, Georgetown University
[5] “Steady as She Goes Three Generations of Students through the Science and Engineering Pipeline”, Heldrich Center for Workforce Development, Rutgers University
[6] Businessweek, March 31, 2009
[7] Mercury News, 2/13/2010
[8]http://www.businessweek.com/interactive_reports/1210_h1b.html?sortCol=benefits&sortOrder=1&pageNum=1&resultNum=50
Re: Re: Poison Cup
What about American STEM grads who have to move back home and wait tables while foreign grads are given the jobs they would have gotten?
Re: Re: Re: Poison Cup
I’m honestly unconvinced there are many American STEM grads unable to find work.
I’m an American college student, and everyone I know studying “technology/engineering” have no problems finding jobs.
The people I know studying science and math are having a little bit more trouble. I know a physics student and a math student that have been only somewhat successful in their job hunts.
Honestly though, the CS/engineering students may not all get jobs at Microsoft/Google, but they have no trouble finding work, and certainly won’t be waiting tables. The science and math people aren’t fighting off recruiters, but haven’t had trouble finding jobs either.
A much bigger issue is the students studying English. They’re screwed.
I only have a small question for you Mike, does IVY League neccassarly mean “best & brightest”. I know a lot of people in academia are in there for research purposes to through many many many universities. I think its narrow sighted to use the correlation of IVY for the purpose of causation to worse & dumbest” Its intellectually dishonest.
Re: Re:
You’re the only one on this whole page that mentions “worse & dumbest” and I think you meant “worst & dumbest” at that. Either way, there is no intellectual dishonesty, as the only claim he makes about them is that they are not the “best & brightest.” Based on their attendance of Stratford University, of which half the country has probably never heard, that is a fair assumption.
And no, that does not mean that I believe ‘best & brightest’ only comes from ivy league, just that I realize they don’t all come from some no-name university…
Well-educated
Technically speaking, Barack Obama is “well-educated” — he has what, three degrees? And yet with all that education, he’s still wrong about everything.
Give me a hungry Stratford graduate with a good work ethic over an Ivy-league graduate who thinks the world owes him something.
Re: Well-educated
Obama is wrong about “everything”? I think a better example would be George W. Bush… a graduate from both Yale and Harvard Business School yet still not the brightest tool in the shed.
But you’re spot on about the Ivy League attitude.
Re: Well-educated
Sorry the facts don’t support your assertion that Obama is wrong on everything. The facts support him being right on most things. Search for tax cuts for example.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/
Don
“This is unfortunate, as anti-immigration folks will simply use this as evidence to block important, useful and job-creating immigration, insisting that all such efforts are abuses. That’s not true, but…”
Yes, that’s true.
You’re just playing yet another elitist shell game. Get over yourselves.
OK, you outsource manufacturing to lower prices and the company grows, because markets overseas start to buy more of that product and other products because their standard of living starts to go up.
Of course, workers here in the US take a hit and demand in the US will start to decline, but that is ok, because markets overseas will pick up the slack.
Then you offshore more and throw in some BPO, now your back office is gone and you lower costs even more. Overseas you raise the standard of living even more, creating even more demand overseas. Of course, the US workforce takes a hit and demand in the US drops even more because even with lower prices, if you don’t have a good job, you don’t spend as much. The company continues to improve though because it is lean and mean, able to do battle in the global marketplace, but the US market continues its decline, which is ok, because overseas the markets are picking up.
The stock market does fine because the company is actually improving, but that won’t help the under and unemployed, because by now they have sold off their 401K, IRA’s and are living on borrowed time, the “rich” are actually doing great because they are investing more in the stock market and it is going up.
Is this correct? How can offshoring help the US? It creates even more demand for farmers that are paid to not grow crops already? It increases agricultural demand while the small farmers are going extinct? It generates more demand for products that are not made by American workers anymore? It generates a marketplace for startups that don’t hire anyone? Explain to me where I am wrong, because if I am not, the US is in for a whole lot of trouble.
Re: You aren't wrong....
Yep, you have described the vicious cycle that’s helping to keep this recession on the edge of a depression.
If people aren’t paid enough, they can afford to buy. If people don’t buy then demand goes down. More attempts are made to ‘reduce costs’. Off shoring, closing factories, laying people off, everything _except_ reducing the highly inflated wages of those at the top. This leads to more people out of work, and the cycle repeats.
Some companies can realize some profits, on paper, for a short time, but it’s unsustainable.
Things like NAFTA could have been used to raise the standard of living for workers everywhere. Something as simple as not allowing out sourcing to locales that didn’t have at least our level of workers protections, environmental protections, etc. Instead it has lead to a race to the bottom. Labor is moved to localities that are the cheapest and most exploitable. Mexico -> India -> China, etc.
This is only a short term solution. It makes the corporate officers more money now, but it’s unsustainable. Eventually, as all the work goes to the most exploitative regions no one will be able to afford any of the products produced.
Even Henry Ford understood the virtuous cycle. He was roundly criticized for paying his workers enough to purchase the products they were creating. If you pay your workers a decent wage, they can afford to buy more things. That raises demand, leading to more employment and higher wages.
Of course this requires a commitment to long term sustainability as opposed to maximizing short term profits. It also requires workers to be paid decently. CEO’s making 2000x what the average worker makes needs to be a thing of the past.
Government can help establishing a real living minimum wage. By prohibiting out sourcing to exploitative regions. By providing a standard retirement and health care package for all its citizens. Government should be providing a base and defining the rules of the game that favor the long term health of the country as a whole.
Unfortunately, government has become the puppet of big businesses that are too greedy and short sighted to know or care what’s good for this country.
Until the government starts putting the welfare of the country and its citizens ahead of ‘easy money’ then unfortunately I think things are only going to get worse.
Re: Re: You aren't wrong....
The only problem with prohibiting outsourcing (or restricting it) is then that just encourages companies to incorporate in other countries that don’t have any restrictions. Then we don’t get the jobs, and don’t get the tax revenues either. As long as money is the objective and there’s a big standard of living gap between countries, it seems like a no-win situation.
I fear the “solution” will come when the standard of living of the industrialized and developing worlds converge, leaving no further reason to outsource jobs. Unfortunately for those of us typing on our computers in our heated offices and homes, that will mean a much more meager existence than we’re used to now.
Now somebody correct me because that’s really depressing.
Techdirt’s very brave when it comes to inciting people to bootleg. Nothing like hiding in a herd, eh?
When it comes to spending taxpayer dollars, it’s still “what’s good for me is good for the country”. Maybe some minor riots will change their attitudes but I doubt it.
They’ll just imagine themselves to be prophets of the people, and then promptly sell them out when they don’t riot on demand. There’s a certain successful politician that comes to mind here but his name escapes me. 😉
Corporatized reality catching up with you, eh?
“I’ll admit that I was a supporter of this program when it was first announced. I believe that we should absolutely be opening our borders to those skilled in science and technology, and keep them working in the US so that they’re working to improve US competitiveness, rather than competing with US firms elsewhere.”
Everything recent is done to benefit the plutocracy at the expense of the middle class and poor, *especially* workers. The Rich have almost no devotion to a country or a people, they can always move elsewhere.
So the whole bit about “best and brightest” was sheerly to improve corporate profits by depressing the wage market. A knowing and cynical exercise of industry and gov’t in conspiracy.
Skilled jobs here for either immigrants or Americans are disappearing fast. Gov’t and “security” are about the only growth areas, and most of those require only thug skills.
THE SOLUTION is to start putting limits on The Rich, at minimum tax them at *same* rates, first dollar to last, as workers are taxed. Arrest some of the giant crooks on Wall Street, and hang ’em. Even more importantly, tax *every* transaction in the stock market, prevent wild speculation and “high frequency” trading. Out Credit Default Swaps. Put banks back into traditional limits. — I could go on. — Point is, society is not just for the benefit of The Rich. They’re already privileged, won’t be harmed by limits.
Look at the top 10 on the list
If you look at the top 10 on that list, you’ll notice that none of the Ivy League schools and only USC from the “West Coast Ivy League” schools are on it.
Of course I’m biased but I’ll agree with Matt Dycus’ comment above. Well educated doesn’t necessarily mean they will be successful. They have to have more than an education to be successful in the work world. I know of too many Harvard MBAs that have ran companies into the ground or given their employers no more value than a person with a ungrad from State U. I also know of many “uneducated” people that have an idea, a plan, and drive that are now CEOs, presidents of companies, or retired because they sold off their companies.
If you want theorists and researchers give me MIT or Stanford any day. If I want successful business people give me anyone else but them for the most part.
One more thing...
All of these “top” schools are actively keeping qualified American students out of their programs so they can say their schools have an international view. For a private institutions such as USC, Stanford, Duke, Harvard, etc. I have only a little problem with this because they are private. My only problem with this stand is that they receive Federal money for their programs so I feel that Americans should have first shot at getting in. Now I have a huge problem with public universities such as UT Austin, Michigan, UNC, etc. selecting foreign students to Masters and Ph.D. programs before selecting American students. If these universities weren’t squeezing out American citizens from their programs then this rule wouldn’t be as big an issue as it is.
Also see
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20091229/1217317536.shtml
Re: Re:
Free speech? Yeah right.
academic eliteism... !!
Principle Skinner:
“Otto, you graduated from Brown didn’t you ?”
Otto:
Yep, nearly got tenure too !!.
but seriously its nice to see Mike bring in a bit of academic eliteism here.
Ofcouse only the richest and most well of should be given access to something that might help you get a job 🙂
So can we add academic snob to your CV mike ?
****
someone said america needs an opportunity to be competitive, they had that, they lost it, they need to stop borrowing off china, tax your own people, stop borrowing off you’re kids, and start to make things for yourselves.
You’ve done it before, why cant you work out how to do it again.
Thats right it’s easier to just blame Obama, after all he’s had 2 years to clear a 10 trillion dollow debt, with no congressional help.. but it’s all his fault..
time will tell,, and not much time, you think its bad in the US now, wait a couple of years..
because then its really going to suck, when you find your Government is broke. and china own’s you..
This is the same crap we saw in the 1990’s where we watched 2 or 3 foreign visa workers take 1 programming job in Silicon Valley. They weren’t any smarter or trained any better. As a manager I had a hell of a time just understanding them. I thought they were simply a ruse to get cheap labor and get rid of an American job. Microsoft sucks bones about foreign labor. It’s the same old British slave system, when the people at home get too prosperous then to cut costs the Company will hire foreigners or open a foreign office and staff it with cheap labor and a well paid manager. Same old shit, new industry.
You can rely on corporations to do one thing
The one thing you can count on is that corporate attorneys will exploit any program’s loopholes and given the complexity of the laws and regulations.
The H-1b can’t be effectively reformed, nor can any visa designed to deliver labor. The only solution is to abolish employer sponsored visas and remove the most corrupt from the system.
First ask yourself what the purpose of immigration should be. Should the primary goal be economic expansion and cheap labor, or should it be creating a stronger nation and including those who want to join our union?
Many people on the H-1b visa are intelligent people and many contribute to our economy in various ways. They may also be great citizens of their own country. However, those coming to work temporarily here have no loyalties towards our nation and most are more interested in reaping economic reward than becoming American citizens.
Immigration should be more about one’s heart and soul – about one’s love for Democracy and American values – and not about finding a temporary gig for Infosys or Microsoft.
Even if immigration created a better economy and fattened my own purse, I would much rather live among poor citizens who love this nation than among wealthy people who could care less. This is a matter of the heart, not the wallet.
We are a nation with a robust marketplace – not a marketplace that happens to be in a nation.
Re: You can rely on corporations to do one thing
“Immigration should be more about one’s heart and soul – about one’s love for Democracy and American values – and not about finding a temporary gig for Infosys or Microsoft.”
Would I need Democracy, I’d rather move to Europe.
American values? Tattoo salons, Nascar and Fox News?
Re: Re: You can rely on corporations to do one thing
“Would I need Democracy, I’d rather move to Europe.
American values? Tattoo salons, Nascar and Fox News?”
Clearly, you have no idea of what it means to be an American. If you are an American, God help us. If you aren’t one, given your obvious contempt for our society perhaps you should move to Europe.
What do you have against Tattoo parlors? And obviously you’ve never been to a Nascar race.
As far as Fox News is concerned – well no country is perfect. The President of Italy OWNS the Italian media outright. That’s one example of European news.
Don’t forget that not too long ago Europe elected a dictator who used the media (Goebles) to manipulate the masses. This same dictator marched through cities across Europe and would have owned the entire continent had Americans not come to the rescue. Some Europeans couldn’t make white flags fast enough they were so eager to surrender. Yeah Poland and France that’s you. And Italy – well big surprise there. Americans could have stayed home and watched from afar, but we didn’t. Our wives picked up wrenches and we picked up guns.
The only thing I dislike about the state of this country is that so few people understand what it really means to be an American and why some of us still have pride in our nation.
And Americans – we are just so terrible that instead of raping a defeated Germany and Japan we built the countries up to become super-economies. You’re welcome. Now STFU.
So J&J lays off a bunch of people and then hires TCS (Tata Consulting) and haves them staff 800 indians that are flown in to work in NJ. How does that help America?
Our universities have very high standards to get in if you are not rich, yet welcome foreign students (who pay very high tuition) how does this help American students?
Things are not going in the right direction.
What difference does it make if a company picks up and moves to other countries? They have already shipped the jobs overseas, what is left?
It really is a race to the bottom, the pie may be getting bigger, but the American worker has a smaller and smaller spoon.