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(Mis)Uses of Technology

by Mike Masnick

Fri, Oct 8th 2010 10:40am




Filed Under:
fbi, gps, tracking


Guy Finds FBI Tracking Device On Car, Posts Pics Online... FBI Shows Up Demanding It Back

from the well-that-confirms-it... dept

Just a couple weeks ago, we had written about a federal lawsuit concerning whether or not the Justice Department needs a warrant to put a tracking device on cars. In a very prescient manner, a bunch of our commenters started discussing what would happen if they found such a device on their car, and whether or not it would be legal to remove it. Well, now we have a case of exactly that happening.

Apparently a guy named Yasir Afifi, who lives in Silicon Valley, discovered a strange device on his car, when he took it in for an oil change. The friend he was with, took some photos and posted them to Reddit, asking if it meant the FBI was after them... or if it was a bomb:
Lots of people in the thread quickly confirmed that it was a tracking device, made by a company who only sold to law enforcement. Then, to confirm things, a couple of days later, the FBI showed up to demand he return the device. Wired has a cinematic description of the encounter:
Afifi considered selling the device on Craigslist before the FBI showed up. He was in his apartment Tuesday afternoon when a roommate told him "two sneaky-looking people" were near his car. Afifi, already heading out for an appointment, encountered a man and woman looking his vehicle outside. The man asked if Afifi knew his registration tag was expired. When Afifi asked if it bothered him, the man just smiled. Afifi got into his car and headed for the parking lot exit when two SUVs pulled up with flashing lights carrying four police officers in bullet-proof vests.

The agent who initially spoke with Afifi identified himself then as Vincent and told Afifi, "We're here to recover the device you found on your vehicle. It's federal property. It's an expensive piece, and we need it right now."

Afifi asked, "Are you the guys that put it there?" and the agent replied, "Yeah, I put it there." He told Afifi, "We're going to make this much more difficult for you if you don't cooperate."
The full story is a lot longer, and a fascinating read, so head over to that link to check it out. It also suggests some of the reasons why the FBI might be watching Afifi -- who says he already knows he's on the federal watchlist -- as well as concerns from the ACLU over the whole thing. Wired also spoke to an ex-FBI agent who thought that the FBI almost certainly would have gotten a warrant to install the device (though, given all the lawsuits, it seems they don't always do so...) and who also pointed out that this particular device is really old. The newer devices, apparently, are much harder to find. They don't come with their own battery pack, but run off the car's battery, and are much more well hidden.

Either way, apparently this gives the FBI's answer to what happens if you find the device. The friend on Reddit claimed they had thought about throwing it in a lake, or even just putting it on another car, "but when you come home to 2 stoned off their asses people who are hearing things in the device and convinced its a bomb you just gotta be sure."

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    Dark Helmet (profile), Oct 8th, 2010 @ 9:57am

    Question...

    "They don't come with their own battery pack, but run off the car's battery, and are much more well hidden."

    Any chance that his runs afoul of laws, constitutional or otherwise, of law enforcement misappropriating lawfully owned property?

     

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      Designerfx (profile), Oct 8th, 2010 @ 10:48am

      Re: Question...

      I could certainly see that occurring. Imagine if it was the GPS device that killed the battery, too.

       

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      :Lobo Santo (profile), Oct 8th, 2010 @ 10:57am

      Re: Question...

      I'd be more like:
      "I found it on my car, it's mine. If you'd like I'll sell you my unidentified device at a very reasonable rate."

       

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      Haywood (profile), Oct 8th, 2010 @ 11:27am

      Re: Question...

      I'd send them a bill for the electricity. Since no price was negotiated in advance, a billion $ a watt sould be fair.

       

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        Anonymous Coward, Oct 8th, 2010 @ 11:35am

        Re: Re: Question...

        He should have burned it and said, "sorry, I thought it came with my car and was mine. Didn't know it belonged to the FBI and I burned it thinking that the car dealer left it there by mistake."

         

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      scarr (profile), Oct 8th, 2010 @ 11:35am

      Re: Question...

      I remember a case of a landlord installing a camera in a tenant's shower, and recording her. (I probably read it here.) The only law he could be prosecuted on was tapping her power to run the camera. I would think the same thing would apply here.

       

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        Christopher (profile), Oct 8th, 2010 @ 12:37pm

        Re: Re: Question...

        Little problem: He OWNED the building in question in that case, that is why he couldn't be charged with any other crime.

        It is NOT a violation of someone's rights to put a camera in a place, even a BATHROOM, where you own the building and are just RENTING IT to a tenant.

         

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          scarr (profile), Oct 8th, 2010 @ 1:08pm

          Re: Re: Re: Question...

          I think you missed the point of the thread.

           

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          Anonymous Coward, Oct 8th, 2010 @ 2:20pm

          Re: Re: Re: Question...

          Actually it IS illegal to put a camera up in the bathroom (and changing rooms). If it wasn't then wouldn't you think stores would do it (or perhaps that hooters wouldn't have been sued)?

           

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          Anonymous Coward, Oct 8th, 2010 @ 3:17pm

          Re: Re: Re: Question...

          > It is NOT a violation of someone's rights to put a camera in a place,
          > even a BATHROOM, where you own the building and are just RENTING
          > IT to a tenant.

          Actually, in many places it is a crime. Haven't you been paying attention to the news lately-- the Rutgers student who webcammed him dorm roommate having a gay romance?

          The two kids have been charged under New Jerseys privacy laws with criminal violations. The same laws would apply to a landlord clandestinely spying on the tenants.

           

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            Buster, Oct 8th, 2010 @ 4:04pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Question...

            The student didn't get in trouble for videotaping it, the problem was it was closed-circuit AND he was purposely displaying it for the public. It's be charged as a hate crime
            Yeah go ahead and say it... "A hate crime because the guy was gay" [roll eyes here]

             

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            101010101010101010101, Oct 15th, 2010 @ 5:22pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Question...

            you have said like 8 million things we get it

             

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          idiotwatch, Oct 8th, 2010 @ 10:24pm

          Re: Re: Re: Question...

          Wrong.

           

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    Anonymous Coward, Oct 8th, 2010 @ 11:03am

    This guy seems like a real winner. Sounds like a great spokesperson for improving justice in the US.

     

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    Robert Ring (profile), Oct 8th, 2010 @ 11:07am

    Embarrassing

    This reminds me of the scene in 'Casino' where the FBI agents are spying on Sam Rothstein (DeNiro) from a small plane, run out of gas, and are forced to land on the golf course immediately behind his house while he's outside watching.

    Gotta be so embarrassing.

     

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    PrometheeFeu (profile), Oct 8th, 2010 @ 11:16am

    I think I might have had to put the device on another car... just for fun...

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Oct 8th, 2010 @ 11:17am

    Doesn't law enforcement have any balls over there in the States? They didn't have the decency of revealing their true intentions from the start and had to wait for him to get into the car and start going to the exit to show up with the heavy artillery.

    If they wanted the device so badly, they should have just approached him (with the appropriate precautions, of course) and demanded the device. Even if they had to bring in the SWAT or the army for the job, it would be a lot better than hiding and lying.

     

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      Christopher (profile), Oct 8th, 2010 @ 12:35pm

      Re:

      Yeah, bring in the NOTORIOUSLY trigger happy SWAT team and Army.... I don't think so!
      That is asking for a severe problem.

       

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      Thomas (profile), Oct 8th, 2010 @ 1:53pm

      The spooks..

      don't give a rats tushie about any such silly things as civil rights or the law. The guy who found the tracking device on his car is very very very lucky he didn't get blown away by several automatic weapons or sent on a one way vacation to gitmo. The Gestapo is alive and well in the u.s. and Himmler would be proud. I am far more afraid of the spooks and police in my own country than of the Taliban.

       

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      oscarjimenez, Apr 10th, 2013 @ 12:09am

      Response to: Anonymous Coward on Oct 8th, 2010 @ 11:17am

      They don't have ballas they follow me every fucken place sneak around my house at 3 am they made me think I was loosing it long story short they don't hellp there just another problem its a bunch of idiots who just have fun and don't really keep the main goal!to stop crime!or help thouse in need ! All they want is the dope .they ignore the kids who get neglected in the dope houses and that's where they should start ! They should cut the fucken cycle from early age.but then again some are fucken to young probly fresh out the fucken army or watever.they even use family .mocking u at stores etc and funny when I drive true long lonley roads at nite by my self ! There to scary to follow me then.what does that tell u ? They need to get there fucken eyes open.and if u wanna stop drugs stop the addicts but they probly just wanna hit the big dogs to colect some cash.

       

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    John Doe, Oct 8th, 2010 @ 11:19am

    I would have had fun with it

    I would have put it under a long haul truck and let them chase their device across the country.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Oct 8th, 2010 @ 11:20am

    This is vandalism

    The police are vandalizing property.. they better have a warrant..

     

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    The Infamous Joe (profile), Oct 8th, 2010 @ 11:27am

    It's an older model.

    It's an older model GPS device because now that they don't need warrants to GPS your car, they've suddenly needed *way* more GPS devices, so the dusted off all the old ones from storage, I bet.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Oct 8th, 2010 @ 11:30am

    Could they have made the thing any bigger, it's so I don't see how anyone would ever notice it.

     

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    Michael, Oct 8th, 2010 @ 11:37am

    Too bad

    He should have smashed and then returned it. What could they do? If they placed it on his car and then knowingly abandoned it there, they have no claim for damages...

     

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      fogbugzd (profile), Oct 8th, 2010 @ 11:54am

      Re: Too bad

      You are right. Watch any spy movie. The official way to handle any discover bug is to put it on the ground and smash it.

      Note: Not recommended if the found device is a bomb.

       

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        Anonymous Coward, Oct 8th, 2010 @ 12:27pm

        Re: Re: Too bad

        "If I had seen the device, I probaly would have called 911 about a bomb and perhaps a TV station or 2. Good pub. for the FBI to have created a bomb scare in the neighborhood."

        From the comments in that post.

        Actually, that's probably a good idea. Better than smashing it, give the FBI bad publicity. I'm sure they would much rather I smash the device than to give them bad publicity over it. If I smash it they may try to make me pay for it and even if they don't make me pay for it I'm sure the lack of bad publicity is worth more to them then the device. If I give them bad publicity what can they do? I'll tell a judge I didn't know it wasn't a bomb, I don't know the difference between a tracking device and a bomb. I wanted to be safe and so I called the bomb squad. Call them from your cell phone and when they show up stay like 300 feet away from the building and explain to them where the device is. Let the news media broadcast the whole thing.

         

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    Skippy T. Mut, Oct 8th, 2010 @ 11:39am

    Why not have a little fun

    Stick it to a public bus and let the FBI wonder why you just drive up and down the same street stopping every few blocks all day

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Oct 8th, 2010 @ 11:39am

    That GPS got to be from the 80's LoL

     

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    Ryan Diederich, Oct 8th, 2010 @ 11:51am

    The Line Between Rights and Laws Fades....

    He could have done many of the things that you all have suggested, sold it, destroyed it, moved it, etc. They would make his life miserable. They control the information, they control the courts.

    Imagine if they filed against him for tampering with police evidence or obstructing an investigation... He would never win.

    Therein lies the problem.

     

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      Christopher (profile), Oct 8th, 2010 @ 12:33pm

      Re: The Line Between Rights and Laws Fades....

      Actually, if you find something like this on your car, they cannot say that you are 'obstructing an investigation' by getting rid of it because it could just be some snot-nosed techie who put it on your car as a joke.

       

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      Andrew (profile), Oct 8th, 2010 @ 1:05pm

      Re: The Line Between Rights and Laws Fades....

      Obstruction requires motive. If he didn't know what it was, there is no motive for him tampering with it.

       

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      btr1701 (profile), Oct 8th, 2010 @ 3:20pm

      Re: The Line Between Rights and Laws Fades....

      > They control the information, they control the courts.

      If you think the FBI controls the courts, you're nuts.

       

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    Anonymous Coward, Oct 8th, 2010 @ 11:53am

    "Just a couple weeks ago, we had written about a federal lawsuit concerning whether or not the Justice Department needs a warrant to put a tracking device on cars."

    If a warrant was granted I think an important question is was there a good reason for the warrant to be granted. If not then the law should require a warrant.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Oct 8th, 2010 @ 12:05pm

    From the wired article:
    " One of the agents produced a printout of a blog post that Afifi’s friend Khaled allegedly wrote a couple of months ago. It had “something to do with a mall or a bomb,” Afifi said. He hadn’t seen it before and doesn’t know the details of what it said."

    http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/ciiag/so_if_my_deodorant_could_be_a_bomb_why_ar e_you/c0sve5q

    The post in question, which is apparently enough to start an FBI investigation (if you're a brown person).

    "bombing a mall seems so easy to do. i mean all you really need is a bomb, a regular outfit so you arent the crazy guy in a trench coat trying to blow up a mall and a shopping bag. i mean if terrorism were actually a legitimate threat, think about how many fucking malls would have blown up already.. you can put a bag in a million different places, there would be no way to foresee the next target, and really no way to prevent it unless CTU gets some intel at the last minute in which case every city but LA is fucked...so...yea...now i'm surely bugged : /"

     

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      Christopher (profile), Oct 8th, 2010 @ 12:32pm

      Re:

      The worst thing about this is that this is the SAME STUFF that I brought up in a forum, and I am white so... that must be the ONLY reason why I wasn't bugged with one of these things.

       

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        Atkray (profile), Oct 8th, 2010 @ 1:17pm

        Re: Re:

        The guys who planted this unit were not particularly careful about concealing it. I wouldn't be so sure you don't have a similar device. I've been under enough vehicles to know it would be simple to hide that were you wouldn't find it unless you knew where to look.

         

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          Anonymous Coward, Oct 8th, 2010 @ 1:30pm

          Re: Re: Re:

          "The guys who planted this unit were not particularly careful about concealing it."

          Much of what the kid said didn't make much since. This thing could have been a joke by the kid to make the FBI look dumb or something? Seems unlikely though but the kids story also seems a bit off.

           

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        btr1701 (profile), Oct 8th, 2010 @ 3:22pm

        Re: Re:

        > that must be the ONLY reason why I wasn't bugged with one of these things.

        How do you know you weren't?

         

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    mrtraver (profile), Oct 8th, 2010 @ 12:15pm

    Not going there

    I won't hypothosize online what I would do, cuz I don't want the Man watching me.

     

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    stokessd, Oct 8th, 2010 @ 12:24pm

    better idea

    Putting it on another vehicle would not really be an issue for the FBI because the thing tells them exactly where it is, so the FBI could call the nearest police dept along the route to stop that car and grab the device. easy peasy.

    The real fun would happen when you start to understand what is there. That device is essentially a GPS receiver, and a data radio. Unless the manufacturer has been rolling their own receivers, dollars to doughnuts, the receiver chip talks to the data radio via a serial protocol. My recommendation would be to cut the serial line from the GPS chip and take a little computer or even an arduino and an SD card and playback the GPS output of a car going in a loop up and down the the PCH or something similar into the data radio. Then take that whole thing and put it on another car. Hilarity ensues...


    Sheldon

     

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      Anonymous Coward, Oct 8th, 2010 @ 6:10pm

      Re: better idea

      Up and down the PCH? How about at three times the legal speed limit? How about doing doughnuts on the White House lawn? Jumping the grand canyon? Visiting the Mariana Trench? I mean you only have so much vacation time, you should do something a little adventurous. I hear the International Space Station is nice.

       

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    out_of_the_blue, Oct 8th, 2010 @ 12:26pm

    They did right: always go as public as possible.

    Police states can't stand the light.

    As think I quoted here before, from Rex Stout: "You cannot answer a policeman by yourself. It takes a whole nation to answer a policeman."

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Oct 8th, 2010 @ 1:30pm

    What makes you think that someone who is on the watch list and says "they had thought about throwing it in a lake, or even just putting it on another car, "but when you come home to 2 stoned off their asses people who are hearing things in the device and convinced its a bomb you just gotta be sure." would ever consider calling 911?

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Oct 8th, 2010 @ 2:31pm

    Clicking on this story from common providers get you redirected to sites that are not related. Didn't take long for the FBI to mess up those links.

     

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    btr1701 (profile), Oct 8th, 2010 @ 3:15pm

    Legalities

    > apparently this gives the FBI's answer to what happens if you find the device.

    Not really. All it does is show what happens when you find it and publicize the fact that you found it. If you find it and do what those guys planned on doing, and put it on another car or something, the question is still open-- what will they try and do to you? Obstruction? Destruction of government property?

    Are you under some legal obligation to leave strange shit alone that you find on your car?

    I'm a cop myself and I have no idea what the actual answers to these questions are.

     

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      Anonymous Coward, Oct 8th, 2010 @ 6:10pm

      Re: Legalities

      Didn't the cops make unauthorized use of his vehicle to haul the thing around? Sort of unauthorized joy riding? Or theft of service (transportation)? Aren't those kinds of things illegal?

       

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      Anonymous Coward, Oct 10th, 2010 @ 7:00am

      Re: Legalities

      I'm a cop myself and I have no idea what the actual answers to these questions are.

      Wow, I don't think I've EVER heard a cop admit before that they don't know it all.

       

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    abc gum, Oct 8th, 2010 @ 6:11pm

    It wont be long till all of us are tagged and we will not know it. It's time to just assume that you are being watched and you are being followed. If not not now, you soon will be. Welcome to the machine.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Oct 9th, 2010 @ 4:06pm

    A friend of mine is a cop and his chief put tracking devices on the squads to make sure his guys were not screwing off. My friend of course knew this, took it off and stuck it on a regional bus. They were pretty pissed off but couldn't prove that he did it.

    What are you doing that you believe that the police (FBI, DEA, NEA, PETA or anyone else) would want to follow you or tap your phone or read your emails? Most of mine even I don't want to listen to or read. As for the following, I guess I must be missing out because where I go wouldn't interest anyone. What is your life about?

     

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      Anonymous Coward, Oct 10th, 2010 @ 7:07am

      Re:

      They were pretty pissed off but couldn't prove that he did it.

      That's the nice thing about being a cop, they have to PROVE that you did something wrong before they can punish you for it (which is probably why the chief went to the extremes that he did). Whereas in the regular world it's pretty much up to whatever your boss happens to think (they don't have to "prove" anything).

       

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    Marco, Oct 10th, 2010 @ 3:45am

    Ah! America ... land of freedom ...

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Oct 10th, 2010 @ 8:24am

    snaek up to a cab and attach

    put a sticker on it "next time you want to follow me do it right"

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Oct 10th, 2010 @ 8:25am

    send hte fbi a power use bill

    plus labour and parts to replace the car battery you will claim they drained, plus lawyer fees of course

     

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    hmm, Oct 12th, 2010 @ 3:08pm

    its not illegal if

    It would only be considered legal IF the landlord clearly mentioned in the tenancy agreement that the tenant was to be spied on, the tenant agreed that this was a part of the deal and the terms for the "spying" were unambiguous.

    e.g.
    section 2: Landlord reserves the right to poke a hole in the toilet stall, insert a camera lens and masturbate furiously in the neighbouring flat whilst you strain to release an enormous poo.........

     

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    johnpombrio, Oct 12th, 2010 @ 4:25pm

    OMG, I found one too!

    In driveway, in driveway, to pizza, in driveway, in driveway, to library, to high school pool, in driveway, to grocery store, in driveway, in driveway.
    Well, there is MY week on the FBIs GPS tracking data. More power to them

     

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    1010101010101010101, Oct 15th, 2010 @ 5:18pm

    wow

    should have made them pay for it

     

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    HighlanderJuan, Feb 24th, 2011 @ 4:22am

    What about Obama

    It's pretty well understood by now that Obama and the dem controlled congress have stolen trillions from the United State's citizens. It is also understood that the union chieftans, who visit the white house every week, get a large portion of the stolen funds.

    My question is, why doesn't the FBI track and harass the powerful thieves in government first, and then go after the miscreants in the public arena?

    Crap. I can answer my own question: the FBI reports to Holder - the second biggest lawbreaker in the central government.

    Sorry, America, you will never see justice or freedom under communist dictatorships like ours.

     

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    Jennifer, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 4:59pm

    A random largish magnet appeared on my car

    I came back to my car after leaving it in a parking lot for about 6hrs one night. It is magnet about the size of my hand, with the picture of a cartoon hornet, looking fierce with a sailors hat, big muscles and giant machine gun lol. I have a few stupid ridiculous(gov sucks) reason why some law enforcement might be tracking me.

    Any chance there could be a chip in the magnet? It was just on the side of my front hood but what a really non obvious way. At first I saw
    it and thought it was funny so I kept it there...what are y'all thoughts?

     

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  •  
    identicon
    Jennifer, Nov 14th, 2011 @ 4:59pm

    A random largish magnet appeared on my car

    I came back to my car after leaving it in a parking lot for about 6hrs one night. It is magnet about the size of my hand, with the picture of a cartoon hornet, looking fierce with a sailors hat, big muscles and giant machine gun lol. I have a few stupid ridiculous(gov sucks) reason why some law enforcement might be tracking me.

    Any chance there could be a chip in the magnet? It was just on the side of my front hood but what a really non obvious way. At first I saw
    it and thought it was funny so I kept it there...what are y'all thoughts?

     

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  •  
    identicon
    computer, Apr 11th, 2012 @ 7:53pm

    tarcjer

    i foud the device and you wont catch me

     

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  •  
    identicon
    Anonimo, Oct 12th, 2012 @ 3:18pm

    good bye bye

    eu estou tentando comprar um carro mas o fbi esta atrapalhando vo se ferrar vocs.

     

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]


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