Band Claims File Sharers 'Are Going To Hell'
from the well,-that'll-sort-it-out-then dept
Apparently, when confronted with changing business models that make your old model less reliable, different people act in different ways. An anonymous reader points us to the news that the singer of the band Elbow, Guy Garvey, has decided to take a religious view on the matter and has declared that file sharers are going to hell. His view of the religion of music economics is apparently that it’s okay to download if you’re poor, but if you can afford to pay, it’s a sin to download and share. He then goes on to thank his record label — whom he refers to as his “paymaster” — and suggest that the band is “lucky.” While I’m sure luck plays a part in all of it, perhaps not damning people to hell for just listening to your music would be a good start.
He notes that the band has a dedicated bunch of fans, which is great, but shouldn’t they be focusing on giving them real reasons to buy, rather than invoking threats of brimstone and hellfire to guilt people into buying? It really comes down to a simple equation. You can make people feel good about buying something, or you can focus on making them feel bad if they don’t buy. I tend to think that, in this day and age, the former is much better than the latter. Why worry about those who are downloading, when you can focus on providing good value and a good experience for those who want to support you?
Filed Under: elbow, fans, file sharing, guy garvey
Comments on “Band Claims File Sharers 'Are Going To Hell'”
Don’t doubt the power of fire and brimstone threats. They’ve worked to varying degrees for at least 2000 years thus far.
Re: Brimstone!
Yes, but there’s a direct link between a persons likelihood towards superstition (religion, et al) and said persons feelings of lacking control in their own life.
Therefore, if education improves, superstitions should wane.
Hopefully with time superstitions will wane to the point where anybody following superstitious nonsense will be regarded as a person whose mind is obviously defective.
Re: Re: Brimstone!
+1
Was going to comment something to this effect, but meh, you said it more eloquently.
Re: Re: Re: Brimstone!
: D
Re: Re: Brimstone!
Um, I would venture to say that most Christians I know have far more control in their lives than non-Christians. Their lives don’t get out of control because they have increased self-control.
And education doesn’t make people not superstitious. Many “educated” people I know talk about “karma” despite them not having any method in their worldview for it to take place. That’s infinitely more superstitious than believing that God is correcting those same people by showing them the error of their ways.
Re: Re: Re: Brimstone!
1) I’m guessing you do not know many people.
2) Control is subjective.
3) Possibly you know less about religion than you think
Re: Re: Re: Brimstone!
They are in control because they live in a fantasy world.
Religion is just a substitute for a conscience and critical thought. You don’t need to blame yourself if you can blame “Satan” or “Gods will”.
You don’t need to stop and think about the consequences of your actions or someone else’s actions if you can blame it on “The Book” (bible). Hence, Christians have no need for a conscience or a moral compass. “The book” and their faith replaces those. That’s why they THINK they are in control. The delegate the “complicated stuff” to God, and just carry on with their pathetic mundane lives.
A non-believer obviously has a lot less control on his life. I mean, he cannot control gravity, the passing of seasons or life itself. HOWEVER, he can study them and understand them. And that gives him much more power. But that power comes at a terrible price: responsibility.
(notice that I bashed Christians, but every other religion is the same basically…they just worship different gods or the same one under a different name)
Re: Re: Re: Brimstone!
Um, I would venture to say that most Christians I know have far more control in their lives than non-Christians.
So just because you don’t know any of those catholic priests beating/raping children doens’t mean they don’t exist.
Re: Re: Re: Brimstone!
> Um, I would venture to say that most Christians I know
> have far more control in their lives than non-Christians.
> Their lives don’t get out of control because they have
> increased self-control.
So that’s why one of the local “Christian” radio stations has billboards for a “debt management” radio show?
An education helps you focus on the right details. This is even useful in a religious context. It helps you to know what’s really right, and really important, and to avoid being distracted by stuff that’s not nearly as important as it’s portrayed.
Awesome!
I’m a big heavy metal fan and I take his statement that I’m going to hell as a compliment. Seriously, all the best bands will be there anyways.
Re: Awesome!
Heh. I hope a good black metal band will give it the good twist it deserves…
“ALL YOU FILESHARERS! YES, YOU ARE GOING TO HELL… TO OUR NEXT GIG!!”
Re: Awesome!
“I’m a big heavy metal fan and I take his statement that I’m going to hell as a compliment. Seriously, all the best bands will be there anyways.”
The one big problem I see with going to hell is you will be surrounded by laweys and record label execs … have fun though
Meh, it’s warmer down there anyway.
*Downloads all their albums*
Man...
This dude seems like a real cool guy in person!
Congrats to Mr Elbow, he has made my shitlist.
He has zero understanding of the business side of his profession (and hasn’t even tried), and blindly depends on his middlemen.
Imo, he’s the worst kind of artist (or any other professional, for that matter) — he was bred in captivity and can’t even imagine surviving outside his little cage and without the scraps of food his masters give him.
If it wasn’t for artists like him, file-sharing would be a non-issue that provides creators with new opportunities to reach their audience — as it should be.
My, how the music industry has changed
It used to be that you would join a band to get all the chicks. Now it seems you join a band to tell customers to go to hell.
Don’t blame your customers for your inability to convert potential customers into paying customers.
But the overall thing about going to hell is nice, and quite classy.
Re: My, how the music industry has changed
You’re so RIGHT!!! It’s the same with everything, if I want to live in the Ritz, I should be able to until I decide the time is right to become a paying customer! I’m still a potential customer until then!
This is a revolutionary idea.
I'm trying to remember...
The last time someone told me to “Go To Hell”, and I willingly bought their product at full retail.
I can’t remember. But there were a few times that I bought U2 CDs used from Craigslist.
Re: I'm trying to remember...
+1
Last time someone told me to go to hell I asked if I should save him a seat.
Brimstone!
Yes, but there’s a direct link between a persons likelihood towards superstition (religion, et al) and said persons feelings of lacking control in their own life. Therefore, if education improves, superstitions should wane.
Bravo, Sir. While this indeed seems like an axiom, do you have a link or research that can back this up? I desire to share the findings of said research with certain people… 🙂
Re: Brimstone!
Saw a really really good 12 minute(?) long TED Conference video about it.
Sadly, I do not have the link, but hopefully you now have a starting point.
Re: Brimstone!
“Bravo, Sir. While this indeed seems like an axiom, do you have a link or research that can back this up? I desire to share the findings of said research with certain people… :-)”
Here you are.
Re: Brimstone!
“do you have a link or research that can back this up? I desire to share the findings of said research with certain people… :-)”
There is an excellent blog called ‘epiphenom’ that is full of all sorts of interesting studies about the psychological and social consequences of, and reasons for, religion.
http://epiphenom.fieldofscience.com/
In the archives, check out July 2010 for an article on the connection between anxiety and superstitious beliefs.
on topic: if someone told me to ‘go to hell’, I would be likely react by making a verbal counterattack.*
Purchasing something from them would be the last thing on my mind at that point.
*if those words are part of the lyrics to a really cool song, the above condition may not apply
Re: Re: Brimstone!
Counterattack? Too much work. My answer regularly is: “there is no hell”.
Well, it kind of makes sense...
…the entire music business is owned by the Devil anyway.
“Guy Garvey, has decided to take a religious view on the matter“
Which is funny because property rights in the US are natural rights. “Natural rights” is another way of saying rights given by God. The purpose of the Constitution and the government is to protect those God given rights.
Copyrights and patents are not natural rights. They are government granted monopolies. Originally they were doled out to authors and writers as an incentive to create, but now they’re doled out to middlemen, because middlemen such as Disney and Viacom fills the coffers of various IP friendly politicians.
Re: Re:
“Which is funny because property rights in the US are natural rights. “Natural rights” is another way of saying rights given by God. The purpose of the Constitution and the government is to protect those God given rights.“
I would bet that if Mr Garvey read Locke’s treatise, he would misinterpret it as intellectual property existing purely from the ‘sweat of the brow’ argument.
Re: Re: Re:
Europe uses “sweat of the brow” and moral rights as a basis for copyright. Thank God we don’t in the US. Our copyright right is screwed up, but not that much.
Class Of 99; Wear Sunscreen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwVVpwBKUp0
Wear sunscreen people, we are all going to hell, everyone shared something at some point.
I love that statements like this reveal the reality about people who, for entertainment and business purposes, attempt to otherwise portray themselves as a completely different persona.
It’s like Lars from Metallica complaining about file-sharing. These guys try to portray themselves as hardcore mofos who say “screw the world” and they write these passionate songs about dark experiences and hard-edged lifestyles (Disclaimer: I’ve never heard of Elbow). But then they reveal that they’re just trying to make it rich by appealing to a particular aesthetic. Lars ends up sounding like a whiny little kid and this guy sounds like the Church Lady.
He’s right of course. It’s right there in the New Testament. Jesus said, “The loyal consumers of commercial music acts shall inherit the kingdom of Heaven and file-sharers shall be thrown into the pit of fire.”
Re: Re:
Well, isn’t that special
Randy Pausch Last Lecture: Achieving Your Childhood Dreams
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji5_MqicxSo
Someone should send those people this video, very inspiring.
Well, it kind of makes sense...
…the entire music business is owned by the Devil anyway.
Read this book. It will open your eyes…
“Hit Men: Power Brokers and Fast Money Inside the Music Business” By Fredric Dannen
and jesus kicked the moneychangers out of the temple
great story about how you never mix religion and money just like they are doing
Ha ha, his name is Elbow.
Have a little pity.
Hmm, and I really like Guy’s track with Massive Attack, “Flat of the Blade”
Never would have heard of him if it wasn’t for torrents. Same goes for Justin Beiber.
Re: Re:
the House theme song is by massive attack i think
I find it strange that somebody who believes in a hell would think that anyone could possibly qualified to say who is really going to end up there, other than perhaps God.
Thanks! That’s perfect!
The great thing about all of this is that I changed, I no longer feel joy consuming that crap, I feel sick literaly and have moved on to find things that are more acceptable to me.
That means no more money to the “paymasters” of that “industry”, not a single dollar is leaving my pockets to pay for those things, they are offering.
I’m the end of it all, I hold the cash and I’m aware of my power no laws or moral panics are going to safe their asses from my wrath.
Heavenly Accountant
Well it seems that God is ok with poor people file sharing but not with people who can afford it.
I just have to wonder why the creator of the universe is so interested in money. Going to hell for file sharing is like getting a death sentence for stepping on an ant.
I guess I missed the chapter in the Bible on file sharing.
Re: Heavenly Accountant
I guess I missed the chapter in the Bible on file sharing.
It’s there all right – in Matthew 10 V8: “Freely you have received, freely give.”.
Or maybe this passage – about “bread- sharing”.
Bread sharing is killing the baking industry!
Note the early “estimate of losses suffered by the baking industry as a result of “bread sharing” in V7.
Seriously though I think that it is a pity that when someone blatantly misunderstands Christianity and makes a foolish statement, which is nowhere supported in the Bible, all the Christian/Religion bashers come out to say how terrible religion is.
Surely this is a blunder when any reasonable reading of the Bible would support the general line espoused by this blog.
Christians (at least those who actually look at what the Gospels say) are your natural allies here. Don’t knock the religion – much better to call out the errors of those who misunderstand it or try to abuse it for their own ends.
Re: Re: Heavenly Accountant
Don’t forget about all that copyright infringement during that illegal multiplication of fish.
never heard of this asshole…so I youtubed the band, and as I suspected, they suck.
That asshat should be thankful that anyone would DL his crummy music, in hopes the downloader has an ignorant friend willing to shell out money for elbows attempt at music.
Ohh..I would also like to point out this. If this moron really wants to bring religion into it, then he should not be a hypocrite and go full force with it.
“”What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.”
The body is a temple and defiling it is a sin. That includes obesity (which he is), masturbation (which I am sure he does) and smoking (which he does).
So, Mr. Guy Garvey, you too sir are a sinner and therefore going straight to hell.
I think AC/DC wrote a song for you.
Re: Re:
1 Cor 6: 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.”[b] 17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit. 18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.
Look I disagree with the guy too, but sexual sin is the only sin against the body. So you might have a case with the masturbation, but obesity and smoking are not sins against the body, no matter how literal your interpretation is.
Is he on Jamendo?
Nope? then he is nobody.
http://torrentfreak.com/utorrent-gets-an-eztv-ted-and-jamendo-app-100927/
Sorry Guy, but that's how I discovered you...
Mr. Guy Garvey,
It’s unfortunate you take this position. I have legally purchased every single one of Elbow’s releases, both CDs & DVDs that are somewhat difficult to find in the U.S. I bought them *AFTER* I’d downloaded them off the ‘Net.
Why would I bother to pay for something I’d already gotten for free? Because you and your bandmates are fantastic artists and I strongly believe in supporting musicians I love to listen to. I also encourage others to follow this model. Listening before I purchase allows me to determine whether the value you are charging me for your material is actually worth the dollar I give up. And when it is, I give it up. When it’s not I don’t give you my dollar and I delete your material. Seems a fair practice to me.
After this bit of crap you’ve slung across my bow, I’m afraid I’ll question whether you’re an artist worth supporting in the future. The problem is you’ll still have your talent. You just won’t have the respect of this fan who now sees you don’t value my dollar enough to consider the sales model you and your “paymaster” continue to worship has no place in my world.
-A Disappointed Eblow Fan
Sorry Guy, but that's how I discovered you...
Mr. Guy Garvey,
It’s unfortunate you take this position. I have legally purchased every single one of Elbow’s releases, both CDs & DVDs that are somewhat difficult to find in the U.S. I bought them *AFTER* I’d downloaded them off the ‘Net.
Why would I bother to pay for something I’d already gotten for free? Because you and your bandmates are fantastic artists and I strongly believe in supporting musicians I love to listen to. I also encourage others to follow this model. Listening before I purchase allows me to determine whether the value you are charging me for your material is actually worth the dollar I give up. And when it is, I give it up. When it’s not I don’t give you my dollar and I delete your material. Seems a fair practice to me.
After this bit of crap you’ve slung across my bow, I’m afraid I’ll question whether you’re an artist worth supporting in the future. The problem is you’ll still have your talent. You just won’t have the respect of this fan who now sees you don’t value my dollar enough to consider the sales model you and your “paymaster” continue to worship has no place in my world.
-A Disappointed Eblow Fan
Double jeopardy
Great! If they’ll be punished in Hell, no need for costly litigation here on Earth!
Religion having lost versus the hard sciences is now trying its hand versus economics. Pretty soon it will be down to religion v gender studies. Finally a foe worthy of religious nonsense.
Jesus made copies of few fishes and loafs of bread, so that would make him a pirate too. 😉
In his defense, he says that people who genuinely can’t afford music are not getting a one-way ticket to aych-ee-double-hockey-sticks.
So when you’re called up to the Pearly Gates, remember to bring your tax forms.
im going to hell ,at least its warm and i’ll know people there
Then Jesus is a sinner
Jesus ‘copied’ fish and loaves to feed 5000. Before that act it was likely they’d have bought their own dinner. Jesus deprived local shopkeepers of revenue. He sinned.
Quote from Wiki:
************************************************
According to the Gospels, when Jesus heard that John the Baptist had been killed, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place near Bethsaida.
The crowds followed Jesus on foot from the towns. When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick. As evening approached, the disciples came to him and said, “This is a remote place, and it’s already getting late. Send the crowds away, so they can go to the villages and buy themselves some food.”
Jesus replied, “They do not need to go away. You give them something to eat.”
“We have here only five loaves of bread and two fish,” they answered.
“Bring them here to me,” he said.
Jesus directed the people to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the people. They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over. The number of those who ate was about five thousand men, besides women and children.
Re: Then Jesus is a sinner
Guy Garvey should read this passage about sharing and the consequences of pretending to share but actually holding things back (like copyright does).
Good thing i dont believe in hell, i might of been a little nervous
I heard this band a few years ago…
… I re-listened and they’re still awful.
I don’t know where he lives, but I already live in hell. It’s called Earth.
The Christians need to get over it. Jesus is dead. Buried. Finito. Get a grip. No one comes back. There is no rapture. There is no escape. You are stuck here. You can’t leave the planet. Maybe it will be easier on you if you live in a fantasy world. But I prefer to face my hell head on.
Thou shalt...
He is obviously referring to one of the missing comandments:
11) Thou shalt not share they neighbors music, lest ye be struck down and die and thy soul be committed to hell for all eternity.
It’s actually interesting to think about. I don’t think there’s any mention of intellectual “property” in the Bible. No copyright, no trademark, no patents.
So it would be interesting to know whether God DOES see file sharing as “stealing”, since there is no physical goods being “stolen”.
More than likely, someone downloading something they didn’t pay for would be guily of “coveting”… though…. there’s no mention of “Coverting thy neighbors infinte goods”.
Elbow? Never heard of them.
Maybe Elbow should embrace the free copying of their music. Being anonymous isn’t good for business either.
Get a clue.
There's a first for everything...
I’m afraid I don’t totally agree with Mike here. Just the other day I was reading a post dedicated to societal pressure as a way to change behaviour. Sounds to me like that’s exactly what the band is doing. Saying that those who can pay and don’t are “bad people” is exactly that. And, technically, he is right about that. I’m not a psychologist but it would also be interesting to hear from someone who knows human motivations whether a person who can afford to pay for music and doesn’t even do that is likely to become a kind of person that would dedicate his/her won time to help the band in other ways.
I’m not saying that the band’s strategy is a good one. As Mike said: “You can make people feel good about buying something, or you can focus on making them feel bad if they don’t buy.” And as, literally, a century worth of research shows, that positive reinforcement is much more efficient than the negative one.
Besides, what about atheists? Can we have a clear conscience about downloading Elbow’s music even if we can pay for it?
And another thing...
By the way, where’s Dark Helmet in all of this? Reading DH’s comments is practically my reason for existence. 😉
Sharing music and Hell
Wow, was I wrong! I thought doing something useful would get you someplace, and God was in Heaven.
Now I find sitting around strumming on a guitar (or something) is okay – evidently God is in the band with you.
Strange – I wonder how I made a few million, when I wasn’t paying for (or normally even listening to) music? Of course, I gave it all to the kids, and now am too poor to buy music (though I am wealthy beyond belief with my family relations!), so maybe God won’t mind my not paying, still?
this is why I dont listen to christian rock
sdfsdfsdf
Um, I wonder if any of you offended pirates have ever heard a single Elbow song…
The file sharing thing is a complicated issue, I admit. Internet has made it easier for smaller bands to reach wider audiences, but at the same time it makes it harder for them to make a living because people are too selfish to pay for the music when they can get it so easily. I can understand his frustration about this. But I think you’re taking this too seriously. If you knew something about british humour, you’d think it was more of a tongue-in-cheek sarcastic remark than a serious statement. Have you considered that maybe the whole thing was taken out of context? Even if you don’t believe in Hell or God or whatever you have to admit that downloading and not paying for it when you can is just wrong.
Re:
Elbow are not christian rock.