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Another UK Hairdresser Fined For Turning On Her Radio

from the no-more-radio dept

We recently wrote about a UK hairdresser being fined for not paying the PPL license for playing a radio in his shop -- even though he'd already been paying the PRS license. Now, if you follow this stuff, you probably know that PPL and PRS cover different aspects of collective licensing, but it strikes many, many people as being patently ridiculous that they need to pay two separate license fees just to turn on a radio in your shop. That story has a rather epic comment thread (well over 500 comments at this point), mainly involving one very, very insistent UK resident who sees no problem with this setup. Of course, he also states that if something is in the public domain it means no one's allowed to sell it at all -- so he's a bit confused on the subject.

In the meantime, however, it appears that PPL has decided that targeting hairdressers and barbershops is in the best interests of its members. mike allen points us to the news that a second hair salon in the same town has been hit with fines. Like the first, she had no idea she had to pay two separate licenses just to turn on her radio, and thought that when a PPL person called (and wouldn't leave a callback number) that it was an obvious shakedown scam. Unlike the other guy, this hairdresser is refusing to pay, saying that the whole thing is ridiculous, seeing as she already paid for a license from PRS.

Once again, while people who are heavily involved in this stuff understand the difference between the licenses, it's pretty ridiculous for anyone to expect a mom & pop shop owner to do the same. All these actions are doing is convincing everyday folks just how ridiculous copyright law is -- while, at the same time, convincing these shops to just turn off their radios, which helps no one. It's such an incredibly short-sighted view by PPL.


Reader Comments (rss)

(Flattened / Threaded)

  1.  
    icon
    Dark Helmet (profile), Jul 12th, 2010 @ 9:03am

    Sigh...

    "Another UK Hairdresser Fined For Turning On Her Radio"

    Christ, here we go again....

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  2.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 10:11am

    With this sort of thing getting out of hand I'm surprised shop owners haven't started turning their radios off. And it would probably be better if they did! Or maybe just look for other alternatives to radio... the internet and Jamendo.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  3.  
    icon
    AdamR (profile), Jul 12th, 2010 @ 10:13am

    Next to plate, radio manufactures demand a special license since the equipment is for home use and not commercial use. Since people go to the specific hairdresser because they use only certain branded equipment.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  4.  
    identicon
    Kyazuh, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 10:16am

    Would this rule apply to someone playing music off of an iPod? If not, I'm surprised more shop owners don't just set up a stereo system with a plug in for an iPod and use it for music.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  5.  
    identicon
    Michael, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 10:16am

    Re:

    It's pretty tough to work in silence like that. This is not about the customers, it is about keeping employees happy.

    We need some kind of "Internet Public Radio" that only plays public domain music to help these guys out. I'm sure it could be funded with ad revenue pretty easily.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  6.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 10:20am

    Re:

    I would think THAT needs a license, but what if they are playing public, ad-funded radio?

    I'm sure the broadcaster paid quite handsomely for licenses to play that music, so are separate PPL licenses actually needed, or is this some sort of scam?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  7.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 10:23am

    Re: Sigh...

    Well, it's better than going after people for singing.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  8.  
    icon
    AdamR (profile), Jul 12th, 2010 @ 10:23am

    Re:

    First they would ask for proof the the songs were purchased legally in its digital format, then say that you would need to still the license as its still considered a performance.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  9.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 10:25am

    Re: Re:

    What you need is a lobby.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  10.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 10:26am

    Re: Re: Re:

    (and by lobby I mean a group of people who influence legislators with laws).

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  11.  
    icon
    Dark Helmet (profile), Jul 12th, 2010 @ 10:28am

    Re: Re: Sigh...

    That isn't what I meant. I just don't want to see another abortion of a comment thread like the previous story....

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  12.  
    icon
    harbingerofdoom (profile), Jul 12th, 2010 @ 10:50am

    Re: Re:

    its the use not the source that they are trying to get money out of.
    basically, their stance is that anything other than silence is a public performance... so it doesnt matter what the source of that material is, the fact that you are playing anything makes it a public performance (which is a load of BS).

     

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  13.  
    identicon
    Greg G, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 10:51am

    Re: Re: Re: Sigh...

    Or you could entertain me again, like in the last comment thread, if the same Delta Alpha starts here....

    Or would you rather I give you some duct tape now so you can wrap it around your helmet to keep it from exploding?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  14.  
    identicon
    senshikaze, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 10:54am

    so after the lawyers, it will the PRS and PPL against the wall? im all for that.

     

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  15.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 11:03am

    If I was a hairdresser in the UK I'd get some from indie music to play. Hell, if this was happening over here I'd make sure my hair dressers get them set up with a bunch of music that no one will go hunting them down for.

    Although since this makes to much damn sense there is probably some way for these organizations to bleed cash out of them still.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  16.  
    identicon
    Danny, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 11:04am

    This might be a great opportunity...

    For musicians who aren't associated with those two collection agencies to start advertising just that. I know its sad that you could even entertain the idea of using, "...but at least you can play our music for free." as a marketing ploy but collection agencies are responsible for it.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  17.  
    identicon
    sinrtb, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 11:14am

    Couldn't the hair dresser just have their regular customers 'buy' personal radios to play while they are getting their hair done. It seems radio stations could then sue prs and ppl for breach of contract considering private citizens would not be able to use the radio.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  18.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 11:16am

    What's needed is for people to stop feeding them. Stop buying music. Stop paying license fees. Stop all transactions with the muic industry. Starve them into submission for once.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  19.  
    identicon
    IronM@sk, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 11:19am

    Re: Re: Re: Sigh...

    Yeah, on that note, I just went and had a look at that story to see what the fuss was about AND BOY does techdirt not play nice when people get into a nested conversation.

    After about 10 nested responses they just turn into one-word-per-line replys that take a couple of flicks with the scroll wheel to read. That's pretty poor site design.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  20.  
    icon
    Nastybutler77 (profile), Jul 12th, 2010 @ 11:19am

    Re:

    I remember when you used to use a shift key and make sense, senshikaze. Have you suffered a stroke recently?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  21.  
    identicon
    NAMELESS ONE, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 11:21am

    Put up a sign saying

    We dont play music that you would enjoy in this store cause copyright is STUPID

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  22.  
    icon
    Dark Helmet (profile), Jul 12th, 2010 @ 11:33am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Sigh...

    Duct tape, please....

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  23.  
    icon
    P3T3R5ON (profile), Jul 12th, 2010 @ 11:36am

    Hey now

    I go to that barber shop and I bought the radio so I can have something to listen to when I am having my hair done.

    Thus it's a radio for private use not commercial....

    Piss off useless agencies!!!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  24.  
    identicon
    senshikaze, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 11:38am

    Re: Re:

    i rarely use shift. mostly it is laziness. also i have a problem with not proof reading my comments. besides, does proper capitalization actually matter? grammar, sure, capital "I"? i'm not so sure.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  25.  
    identicon
    senshikaze, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 11:41am

    Re: Re: Re:

    also, at least i don't use CAPS all the time like others...
    >_>

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  26.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 11:47am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Sigh...

    Or perhaps your browser window is not wide enough.

    (Trying to increase the nesting level for this thread a little bit more with this reply...)

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  27.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 12:03pm

    overall, it begs the question: if the music is not relevant to the business, why have it on to start with? at the end of the day, the music is used to improve the atmosphere of the shop, and make it more desirable. if everyone charges about the same for the haircut, isnt atmosphere something that would differentiate one shop from another?

    if it isnt needed, turn off the radio and call it even. how hard is that?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  28.  
    icon
    Dark Helmet (profile), Jul 12th, 2010 @ 12:03pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    ...being ignorant of how to input italics into this window, I use the caps only for emphasis. Sorry....

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  29.  
    icon
    Dark Helmet (profile), Jul 12th, 2010 @ 12:11pm

    Re:

    "overall, it begs the question: if the music is not relevant to the business, why have it on to start with? at the end of the day, the music is used to improve the atmosphere of the shop, and make it more desirable. if everyone charges about the same for the haircut, isnt atmosphere something that would differentiate one shop from another?"

    You know what? You're right! And we ought to take it a step further. Hair cuts really are only there to increase presentability. Shouldn't the hairdresser get a cut of everything improved upon by the haircut? For instance:

    1. A cut of the haircut-ee's paycheck. After all, he wouldn't have gotten that big sale w/o that awesome looking faux hawk....

    2. A cut of the enjoyment of that family photo. Who wants a portrait of a caveman looking family anyway?

    3. A little piece of that bah-dussy I got the other day. My girl told me I looked good the other day after I got my hair cut and promptly performed several sex acts on me (she gives great helmet). It only makes sense that I march her over to the Hair Cuttery so that she can peform the same acts on Monica, my chief of scissor to hair manager....

    Or, I don't know, maybe this is all just silly....

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  30.  
    icon
    Dementia (profile), Jul 12th, 2010 @ 12:11pm

    Re:

    It isn't hard at all, but it isn't necessary either. Since the radio is a public broadcast there should be no reason for a license to begin with.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  31.  
    icon
    Richard (profile), Jul 12th, 2010 @ 12:12pm

    PPL vs PRS

    Once again, while people who are heavily involved in this stuff understand the difference between the licenses,

    Yes and a recent BBC article about the PRS licence didn't even mention the PPL licence at all.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7833982.stm

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  32.  
    icon
    Ben Ash (profile), Jul 12th, 2010 @ 1:15pm

    Sigh

    What's wrong with a low fine? Then people would most likely pay. Heck even a warning is going to be better PR than sueing everyone out there.

    Idiots. I'm surprised fine limits are set by the UK government

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  33.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 1:22pm

    Who-tf reports these violations? Lynch that a-hole.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  34.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 2:08pm

    Re:

    Oh look, TAM fails at reading comprehension again.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  35.  
    identicon
    Joe Public, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 2:19pm

    How Much is Enough?

    How many times should we pay for the same stuff ?

    In the UK we pay a TV / Radio licence fee - no option

    Some of that money pays for the BBC Radio stations which pay for the music they Transmit

    Then they say but wait Now you need to pay the PRS to play what you paid up for to transmit.

    Now the PPL Say Ok So you pay to transmit / Then you pay to play now you need to pay if you hear.

    WTF..?

    O yes and don't forget that every car in the land that has its windows down and the radio on needs to pay just like a shop.

    SO HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH ?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  36.  
    icon
    Nastybutler77 (profile), Jul 12th, 2010 @ 2:37pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I'm not sure that was directed at you DH. More likely it was that subliterate NAMELESS ONE and a few others who do it frequently.

    As for using italics, see the last line of the comment reply box? If you put a "" before the word(s) you want to italicize then a "" at the end of the word(s) it should work. Be sure to Preview before you Submit, because in my browser at least it adds extra tags in that italicize everything in the comment from the start of my italics to the end of the post. Not sure why.

    Sorry for the awkward "quote marks" around the tag descriptions, but it I put them all together than they won't show up.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  37.  
    icon
    Nastybutler77 (profile), Jul 12th, 2010 @ 2:47pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Dammit! It took out the tag description anyway, even though I put some other words and punctuation between the descriptors.

    Um, just look at the "Allowed HTML Tags" at the bottom of the comment box and the "i" one starts italics, and to finish using it, put the same thing but with an "i/" in between those brackets. Sorry if that's not very helpful, but those brackets don't show up as text.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  38.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 2:48pm

    Re: Re:

    it doesnt matter if it is a public broadcast or not, it is being used to bring in business (or as a feature of the business) and is as a result a commercial use. as i said, if the music isnt relevant to making money or keeping people in the place, then just turn it off. no big deal.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  39.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 2:55pm

    Re: How Much is Enough?

    The problem is that people in the U.S./U.K. don't protest enough.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  40.  
    icon
    Nastybutler77 (profile), Jul 12th, 2010 @ 3:00pm

    Re: Re:

    Those are good points. Why aren't all musicians who use a licensed hairdresser, stylist or makeup artist (I'm assuming they have to be licensed in the UK as they do in the States, but I could be wrong) required to pay a fee to the HSCA (Hairdresser, Stylist and Cosmotology Alliance (not real, btw))?

    After all don't they derive a significant amount of their fans based on their look almost as much as their sound? Lady GaGa I'm looking at you. If so shouldn't all musicians who use one have to support all these beauticians? Not just the big name well established ones, but the up and coming struggling stylists who won't be able to make ends meet without these fees, right?

    What's the difference in these two arguments?
    Answer: Nothing. Both are asinine.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  41.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 4:30pm

    Notice that the people who called up this hairdresser's refused to leave a contact number? But then again accountability has never quite been the strong suit of collection societies.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  42.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 4:31pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    Wasn't there something about record labels complaining over venues NOT playing their music?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  43.  
    identicon
    CrushU, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 4:36pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Wonder if this works:
    and gives
    and

    (Previewed... Yes! It works. There you go, DH. For your enrichment. ... Can you send me the girl that gives good helmet?)

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  44.  
    identicon
    CrushU, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 4:36pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Wonder if this works:
    <i> and </i> gives
    and

    (Previewed... Yes! It works. There you go, DH. For your enrichment. ... Can you send me the girl that gives good helmet?)
    (Double post because the preview took away my formatting that made it work and I didn't notice in time.)

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  45.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 4:38pm

    To use italics here do this.

    e.g.
    The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog


    i>The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog/i>

    The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog

    At the end below the comment box there is tags one can use in here.

    * Plain Text: A CRLF will be replaced by break br> tag, all other allowable HTML is intact
    * HTML: No formatting of any kind is done without explicitly being written in
    * Allowed HTML Tags: b> i> p> a> em> br> strong> blockquote> hr> tt>

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  46.  
    icon
    nasch (profile), Jul 12th, 2010 @ 4:39pm

    Re: Re: Re: Sigh...

    I think that thread was the opposite of an abortion. ;-)

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  47.  
    identicon
    CrushU, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 4:39pm

    Hairdresser effect?

    Really, I can't think of any worse business to sue over this than hairdressers.

    Barbers/hairdressers are KNOWN for conversing with their clients quite often. If there's a better way to spread hate over copyright laws, I can't think of it.

    "Mornin Bob, the usual just a couple inches off the top."
    "No problem."
    "Hey, why isn't there any music playing? Your radio broke?"
    "Nope. Those bloody PPL people..."
    "Huh? What're you talking about?"

    Ahem. Et cetera, Et cetera.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  48.  
    icon
    nasch (profile), Jul 12th, 2010 @ 4:41pm

    Re:

    Hell, if this was happening over here I'd make sure my hair dressers get them set up with a bunch of music that no one will go hunting them down for.

    I'm not sure there is any such music. I would be surprised if these collection societies don't try to collect for recordings they don't represent.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  49.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 5:58pm

    Re: Re:

    They already do, under the pretext that you "might" play infringing music.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  50.  
    icon
    Dementia (profile), Jul 12th, 2010 @ 6:53pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    And if it is used for the enjoyment of the individual who owns the radio?? What then? Are they not entitled to use their personal property at a time and place of their using to listen to a public broadcast? So yes, it does matter. If the hairdresser is using it for their own enjoyment they shouldn't need a license. If their clients happen to listen and enjoy it, too freakin bad. Don't let the radio stations play it and no one will be any worse off, except of course the artist, the label, and the collection society.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  51.  
    identicon
    Krash, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 7:00pm

    AIR

    I need a lawyer. I think I will copyright AIR and SCREW the world. Well on second thought.

    Being in an pleasing atmosphere (hair dresser, work/slave shop, you get the picture), where you can relax and enjoy the company of your work mates and patrons is better for all involved. So bring on the radio.

    Now if you are having a bad hair day, no pun intended, doesn't music help calm the screaming beast? So, why charge for something so physiologically positive?

    Now if get the copyright on AIR, I will withhold this precious commodity from certain people unless they pay big time. Then I will return this money back to the little people that got took because of stupid greedy big business IDIOTS.
    Do I see robin-hood here, at least Hollywood style?

    Few seconds should do it, least till they start turning blue. Don't want them to pass out till they sign on the dotted line.

    Brain dead so read between some of the lines and add a little more.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  52.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jul 12th, 2010 @ 7:22pm

    I think those collection agencies are brilliant they are doing for the music business what the unions did for workers in the 90's.

    That is, workers had their jobs transferred to other places and lost their jobs, in the same way musicians will find difficult to find promotion anywhere and will loose their other revenue streams.

    I'm wondering when people will start banning musicians from posting their music anywhere as people could have to pay licenses to those crook's.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  53.  
    icon
    vivaelamor (profile), Jul 13th, 2010 @ 2:32am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Sigh...

    "After about 10 nested responses they just turn into one-word-per-line replys that take a couple of flicks with the scroll wheel to read. That's pretty poor site design."

    You can fix this by logging in and setting your preference to variable width rather than fixed width. Alternatively, it's fairly easy to fix with a greasemonkey script.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  54.  
    icon
    vivaelamor (profile), Jul 13th, 2010 @ 2:39am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I always use <em> and </em>, which works in both plain text and html input.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  55.  
    icon
    martyburns (profile), Jul 13th, 2010 @ 5:24am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sigh...

    Awesome! This has pissed me off for ages. Definitely clicking the insightful button for your response - I bet I don't have to do that for any posts below this one...

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  56.  
    icon
    martyburns (profile), Jul 13th, 2010 @ 5:30am

    Re: Re:

    You need haircuts?!?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  57.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jul 13th, 2010 @ 4:26pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  58.  
    icon
    Dark Helmet (profile), Jul 14th, 2010 @ 6:07am

    Re:

    Testing italics awesomeness....

    i>Italics/i>

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  59.  
    icon
    Dark Helmet (profile), Jul 14th, 2010 @ 6:08am

    Re: Re:

    Well, that didn't work. Trying in HTML mode: Italics/

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  60.  
    icon
    Dark Helmet (profile), Jul 14th, 2010 @ 6:09am

    Re: Re: Re:

    SWEET!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  61.  
    icon
    isabel (profile), Jul 15th, 2010 @ 12:44pm

    So when are they

    going to go after football crowds for singing songs at a match or would they be worried they'd have their heads kicked in

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  62.  
    identicon
    FlyBoyMark, Oct 11th, 2011 @ 8:22am

    You Gotta Be kidding!

    This is why the UK has become a third rate banana republic instead of the great FREE country it used to be. A sign of socialistic values that destroy greatness. This policy makes me want to vomit and never visit the UK. The ignorant little sheep of the UK will continue on their path to lost mediocrity till their country is gone with the winds of time.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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