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1.  

   

   Ima Fish (profile), Nov 13th, 2009 @ 6:03am

   
   

   When I was in law school my international law class was taught by a very nice french lady who despised common law legal systems. She constantly raved how most of Europe used a much more efficient civil law system where courts never had to interpret the law, they simply followed the law.
   
   I can't help but wonder which law specifically says that the police can randomly seize and keep property "so long as is necessary in all the circumstances."

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2.  

   Re:

   

   Anonymous Coward, Nov 13th, 2009 @ 6:08am

   
   

   UK uses a common law legal system though.

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3.  

   

   Anonymous Coward, Nov 13th, 2009 @ 6:10am

   
   

   Similar things happen with cars, homes, and just about any other items of interest. If you are unlucky and your car happens to the scene of a crime (someone is shot outside your car, blod splatters on the bumper) the car can be seized and it is often difficult if not impossible to get the car back in a timely manner.
   
   Ima Fish, I that that the original seizure was done under court order, which would indicate that there was enough valid information for a court to order such a seizure. Thus, it isn't "random", but rather with a court order. In other words, there are no jack booted thugs randomly bursting into houses to take computers without reason and handing them over to FACT (or anyone else).

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4.  

   Re:

   

   PaulT (profile), Nov 13th, 2009 @ 6:11am

   
   

   Doesn't the UK use common law? I'm pretty sure it does.

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5.  

   Why?

   

   Imnot Suprised, Nov 13th, 2009 @ 6:25am

   
   

   Why does this suprise anyone? The governments of the world are controlled by corporations - corporations that put money (directly or indirectly) into the pockets of politicians.
   
   Governments are corrupt and are to be feared. They will not hesitate to trample you underfoot to proponent their private (read: corporate sponsered) agenda.
   
   Sad, but true.

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6.  

   Re: Re:

   

   Ima Fish (profile), Nov 13th, 2009 @ 6:45am

   
   

   Damn, I should learn to read. For some bizarre reason I thought this was happening in Sweden.

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7.  

   Re: Re:

   

   Ima Fish (profile), Nov 13th, 2009 @ 6:46am

   
   

   Yeah, I'm an idiot. See above. Thanks!

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8.  

   Re:

   

   Dark Helmet (profile), Nov 13th, 2009 @ 6:47am

   
   

   "Similar things happen with cars, homes, and just about any other items of interest. If you are unlucky and your car happens to the scene of a crime (someone is shot outside your car, blod splatters on the bumper) the car can be seized and it is often difficult if not impossible to get the car back in a timely manner."
   
   That's absolutely true, but once criminal charges are no longer forthcoming, parties are able to retrieve their property. As long as charges are being considered, the authorities can keep them, but after that they have to give them back, at least in America.
   
   It's difficult to understand how a private entity, like a trade organization, can be allowed to retain another person's property simply because they're CONSIDERING a civil trial. It's civil, so evidentiary procedures like chain of evidence don't really apply, nor do, I believe, rules of discovery. So, again, where in the law does it say one private entity can sieze and retain another's property simply because they're considering civil litigation?

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9.  

   UK, not US (so far...)

   

   RD, Nov 13th, 2009 @ 6:58am

   
   

   This is the kind of Muppet Nation(tm) that the UK is turning into, with an almost complete subversion of individual rights to the state/corporation. The stories I read about topics like this on sites like The Register and others is downright scary, and is starting to make people wistfully pine for Stalinist Russia as the "good old days". It is not nearly this bad here in the USA, so far, but dont be too surprised if the insanity you see in the UK is just a precourser of things to come.

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10.  

    

    Overcast (profile), Nov 13th, 2009 @ 6:59am

    
    

    How nice of them. Guilty until proven... well.. it doesn't matter, we're keeping your stuff anyway.
    
    Back to the days of Longshanks, huh?!

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11.  

    Re: Re:

    

    Designerfx (profile), Nov 13th, 2009 @ 7:07am

    
    

    if I recall correctly, parties often have to sue to retrieve property after charges are dropped, because the police are lazy as hell about this. I recall something about someone who had a server seized supposedly for illegal crap and then 5 years later they gave it back, at which point it was useless.

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12.  

    Re: Re: Re:

    

    Dark Helmet (profile), Nov 13th, 2009 @ 7:15am

    
    

    Hm, I thought that was only if they want back property siezed in a criminal investigation and not returned within the allotted time. I'm getting this from what I've read on the Drew Peterson case....

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13.  

    

    CastorTroy-Libertarian, Nov 13th, 2009 @ 7:17am

    
    

    But i can just see how it would work if FACT or some other idiot Piracy group said we can seize computers in the US... I am from from **AA and we think your a pirate, hand over the computer... NO... WE have the right... NO... Give us the computer or we call the cops... NO, Arrrggh me mates to the sheets and lets keel haul the lot of them...
    
    Sorry i just have visions of that one ending badly... and funny... for some reason every time i try to visualize it a rope appears the the "suspected pirate" has cutlass and swings in to lop the heads off... anti-piracy goup insert name here hechmen... I have issues...

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14.  

    

    Call me Al, Nov 13th, 2009 @ 7:30am

    
    

    Almost everytime I hear something about the actions of the UK police, judiciary or politicians I become more convinced that the whole lot of them are morally bankrupt.

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15.  

    Born in the wrong time

    

    Sergio, Nov 13th, 2009 @ 7:36am

    
    

    The next generation is going to look back at things like this and think "Wow, what a bunch of idiots."

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16.  

    Re:

    

    interval, Nov 13th, 2009 @ 8:04am

    
    

    That's funny because Napoleonic Code (the legal system in France) is one of the most f'd up systems around. An inspector can be a judge, and a judge can be a prosecutor, and talk about bias in the courtroom...

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17.  

    Re:

    

    Free Capitalist (profile), Nov 13th, 2009 @ 8:09am

    
    

    Back to the days of Longshanks, huh?!

    
    
    Update to Braveheart:
    "The problem with the Internet, is that its full of users."

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18.  

    Re: Re:

    

    Chris-Mouse (profile), Nov 13th, 2009 @ 8:35am

    
    

    That's absolutely true, but once criminal charges are no longer forthcoming, parties are able to retrieve their property. As long as charges are being considered, the authorities can keep them, but after that they have to give them back, at least in America.

    Umm no, that's not the case. Check out this article from the Detroit area... The Detroit News

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19.  

    Two Comments

    

    Adub, Nov 13th, 2009 @ 8:38am

    
    

    I know someone who had a .22 rifle seized when police were called to a domestic dispute. No one was arrested or charged, the rifle was not used in the dispute, but was in plain sight, so they seized it. It took almost two years to get it back...with the help of a friend who worked for the sheriffs dept.
    
    I know someone who had his computer seized by the FBI. He was trying to get a job with the FBI and made it to the polygraph portion of the application process, which is really good. I won't go into detail about it because frankly, the FBI scares the hell out of me. Basically, they went into his apartment and took his computer (without a warrant) while he was still in the interview. It took about a month for him to get it back and he was also advised to file charges. He did nothing wrong.
    
    The US government does this all the time.

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20.  

    

    taoareyou, Nov 13th, 2009 @ 8:44am

    
    

    Does the UK law allow the police to seize property, then turn that property over to a private party and allow that private party to keep said "evidence" until such time they decide they may want to file a civil action?
    
    So basically any private party can accuse another private party of something and have the accused's property taken by force and turned over to the accuser without the need of any criminal act?

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21.  

    Fair is Fair

    

    sysadmn (profile), Nov 13th, 2009 @ 8:49am

    
    

    So if the alleged Pirates want to countersue, and claim that the "private, industry-backed anti-piracy group FACT" engaged in criminal conduct (perhaps by making fraudulent claims to the police in the course of the "assistance"), can they get the police to seize FACT's computers?
    
    It seems only fair, and there is a delightful irony in using the same tactics in reply. Perhaps Surfthechannel could use the BSA's tactics and offer a cash reward to former FACT employees to report illegal conduct ;-)
    
    
    Dark Helmet - we Americans have a much more obscene variant of the law that allows the police to seize property alleged to be associated with criminal activity and sell it, keeping the proceeds. No criminal charges are filed, and the 'target' of the seizure is the property, not the owner, sidestepping many constitutional protections.
    http://www.isil.org/resources/lit/looting-of-america.html
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset_forf eiture

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22.  

    Re: Re: Re:

    

    Dark Helmet (profile), Nov 13th, 2009 @ 8:57am

    
    

    Nice, and thanks for the link. I'll check that out. Hate it when I'm wrong...

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23.  

    Re:

    

    The Infamous Joe (profile), Nov 13th, 2009 @ 9:41am

    
    

    So basically any private party can accuse another private party of something and have the accused's property taken by force and turned over to the accuser without the need of any criminal act?
    
    Any *wealthy and well connected* private party can, yes. If you tried it on them, I suspect it wouldn't work out so well.

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24.  

    common law / civil Law

    

    Nick, Nov 13th, 2009 @ 9:49am

    
    

    The UK does have common law, as does the US (except Louisiana that got its code from the French). Europe has Civil law inherited from the French. Civil law gets criticised because no one has the pewer to interpret it and it can go out of date and be irrelevent (France and internet / copyright law anyone?). Common law has its own issues and this is one of them. In common law judges interpret the law based on previous cases. If FACT could successfully argue that a precedent existed to keep the kit (ie someone in a vaguely related case of the police / anyone else keeping seized kit) then that is the way the judge should rule. Obviously this will be appealed and part of that will be an application to set a new precident which the appeals court will consider.
    
    This could technically happen anywhere where common law exists and where one party has a good enough barrister to argue the case. Given the number of questionable decisions Mike reports on in US courts I am sure that there are US judges capable of make this monumentally bad (and I do agree it is) decision given the quality of judgements that come out of the US from time to time...

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25.  

    

    Daemon_ZOGG (profile), Nov 13th, 2009 @ 9:52am

    
    

    FASCIST PIGS!! (..refering to the judge and the coppers)
    
    As for the IFPI we already know about their MAFIA Activities!
    " }:> "

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26.  

    Re:

    

    Dementia (profile), Nov 13th, 2009 @ 10:03am

    
    

    Let me just say that if anyone shows up to my house, without a warrant, insisting they have a right to seize my property, they will be met with whatever force I feel necessary to defend my home, family, and property.

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27.  

    Re: Dementia

    

    Adub, Nov 13th, 2009 @ 10:54am

    
    

    "...they will be met with whatever force I feel necessary to defend my home, family, and property."
    
    And you would be correct in doing so, but unfortunately, history paints a different picture. You would go down in a hail of gunfire and then be made out to be some crack-pot and/or terrorist when all you were doing was protecting your home.

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28.  

    Re: Re: Dementia

    

    Dark Helmet (profile), Nov 13th, 2009 @ 11:09am

    
    

    "And you would be correct in doing so, but unfortunately, history paints a different picture. You would go down in a hail of gunfire and then be made out to be some crack-pot and/or terrorist when all you were doing was protecting your home."
    
    I think it's fairly common knowledge that Dementia is a puppy-kicking, nun-slapping raporist....

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29.  

    

    Anonymous Coward, Nov 14th, 2009 @ 3:34am

    
    

    It makes perfect sense, when judgments are bought and paid for.

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30.  

    POLICE FRAME PEOPLE TO COVER UP

    

    blahblah, Nov 28th, 2009 @ 7:14am

    
    

    Apparantly I was told by a once serving police officer that the tech unit have a specialist software called a "TORPAEDO" which they can use to download onto someones computer and frame them for having indecent images. the software embedds images at various intervals throughout the pcs memory making it look like the material has been collected over a period of time instead of only just downloaded. I believe they used this software on those muslim guys when they broke into their homes and shot one of them. They use it as a bartering system for cover ups. OOOps sorry we f***d up, tell ya what dont say anything and we wont frame you. LOL Jesus, german jack boots are still in England. Rest assured, if you have a dispute with the police, they will illegally seize your laptop or pc and put whatever they want on it. Porn, Terrorist software, whatever the situation calls for.

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31.  

    Good work done by Police

    

    Tringula Dating, Dec 16th, 2009 @ 4:31am

    
    

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32.  

    Good work done by Police

    

    Assignment Help, Dec 16th, 2009 @ 4:36am

    
    

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33.  

    Assignment Help

    

    Assignment Help, Jan 31st, 2010 @ 7:38pm

    
    

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