Murdoch Says Fair Use Can Be Barred By Courts; Will Probably Remove Sites From Google

from the suicide-squeeze dept

And we thought that perhaps -- just perhaps -- Rupert Murdoch was coming to his senses with the plan to delay putting up a paywall. Turns out that may have been wishful thinking. Mathew Ingram alerts us to the news that Murodch has suggested that News Corp. might actually remove its sites from Google. Of course, I won't actually believe it until it happens, but he has had his minions going around slamming Google even as News Corp. offers its own aggregators. But actually following through and removing News Corp's sites from Google would be a huge step to take -- though one right off the side of a big cliff. Still, I'm sure it would make for a fun case study.

In the meantime, his explanation is really quite stunning. He claims that he believes fair use is a concept that the courts will reject:
"There's a doctrine called fair use, which we believe to be challenged in the courts and would bar it altogether..."
Wow. Of course, if that's true, then (again) we need to point out that News Corp. has been making use of fair use for years with its own aggregators. In fact, most news organizations regularly make use of fair use. Perhaps News Corps' lawyers who work in their news divisions might want to sit Murdoch down and explain the importance of fair use from a reporting perspective. They might also want to point him to the history of fair use within copyright law, in case he thinks it's something that was just made up yesterday.


Reader Comments (rss)

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  1.  
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    Lisa (profile), Nov 9th, 2009 @ 10:19am

    I can't believe how utterly clueless he is to how the internet works.

     

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  2.  
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    ChurchHatesTucker (profile), Nov 9th, 2009 @ 10:22am

    He might be right

    The WIPO treaty may de facto wipe out 'fair use.'

     

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  3.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 10:24am

    How long will that take, by the way? In the courts, will it take years? How's that lawsuit Viacom filed against Google's Youtube coming along?

    Three years just to get a ruling. More years of appeal. So by, what, 2017 there should be more of an idea about how fair use pertains to a media-centric world.

    Good luck buddy! You're going to need it.

     

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  4.  
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    Murdoch's #37 fan, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 10:24am

    You have to listen to the interview more carefully to pick up the underlying concepts, and they are actually very powerful.

    Most important, he is realizing that all the eyeballs in the world are just that, eyeballs, and nothing more. Mooch eyeballs, non-payer eyeballs, and eyeballs that never really make it to your site because they stayed somewhere else to read the headlines are all useless eyeballs. The advertisers for the most part don't want them, and especially when you consider regional news services, they don't particularly want or need people from the other half of the world using up bandwidth for nothing.

    Most of their newspapers would be doing really well to basically limit google to their main pages and maybe section pages, but no actual stories. The traffic they would lose would be mostly the traffic that isn't doing anything for them, and they would be able to continue to offer a quality product to their target market.

    Viral connections, the spreading of news person to person will continue. Blog links to stories will continue. But the true mooches, the googles and other aggregators will find themselves with less content AND less relevance. Understand that Google is entirely built on everyone else, that is a key move.

    If every website in the world banned Googlebot tomorrow, google would cease to be relevant within days, and cease altogether within weeks. An out of date search engines isn't very powerful, is it?

     

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  5.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 10:28am

    Re:

    And if everyone bowed down to me tomorrow I would be king!

     

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  6.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 10:39am

    I've always believed that fair use originates from the first amendment. Just because someone copyrights something, doesn't eliminate my ability to talk or write about it. And I'm not just talking about critical commentary. "I just heard this new song come listen to it!" or "Watch this cool video I saw." Being told, "Sorry, they have to pay if you want them to listen or see a copyrighted work" sounds to me like a limitation of my speech.

     

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  7.  
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    wirtes (profile), Nov 9th, 2009 @ 10:46am

    And Texas will secede from the USA

    This is saber rattling, plain and simple. Businessmen usually make this type of statement during a negotiation to strengthen their position, though I fail to see how this helps Rupert/FOX.

    I actually WELCOME Fox News being removed from Google. I've been requesting that Google News give me the ability to EXCLUDE FOX News from their iGoogle News module since launch. I don't WANT to see them, but I can't seem to filter them out of the aggregator's feed.

     

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  8.  
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    Shawn (profile), Nov 9th, 2009 @ 10:47am

    Re:

    If every person in the world poked out one of their eyes with a stick Eye-patch sales would skyrocket!

     

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  9.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 10:48am

    How long has free speech been around? A mere century or two?

    Copyright, on the other hand, has been here since the beginning of western civilization.

    Where would early Greek works be without DRM?

     

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  10.  
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    KevinJ, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 10:49am

    Re:

    You're right, if every website in the world actually 'banned Googlebot' then there would be nothing for Google to list and Google would no longer be relevant. Now what are the chances of that happening? Can you say astronomically low?

    Of course I could turn that around and say this: If every one in the world stopped talking to News Corp. tomorrow, News Corp. would cease to be relevant within days, and cease altogether within weeks. An out of date news organization isn't very powerful, is it?

    Unfortunately, Murdoch is apparently trying to cut off one of the ways for the profitable 'eyeballs' to actually find News Corp. content. How would this move affect News Corp.? I don't know, that's why Mike said this would be an interesting case study.

    As a slight side note, why does it sound like you're one of those sent out to bash Google?

     

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  11.  
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    Spade, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 10:49am

    @ Murdoch's #37 fan

    How exactly would people find these blogs, or make these viral connections, without search engine results to point them there? Google works because it's a one-stop shop to search for whatever you're looking for.

    The fatal flaw in your argument is that there's no way every website in the world will ban Googlebot. Those who do will be at an immediate disadvantage to those who don't. Murdoch's competitors must be salivating over the prospect that he'll actually follow through on this idea, handing them free traffic as a result.

     

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  12.  
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    Derek Reed (profile), Nov 9th, 2009 @ 10:53am

    Re:

    The advertisers for the most part don't want them, and especially when you consider regional news services, they don't particularly want or need people from the other half of the world using up bandwidth for nothing.

    The costs of an individual hitting your web page approaches 0. The potential monetization is greater than that infitessimal number. The solution is not to reduce your traffic in attempts to filter out low value eyeballs, but to more effectively monetize every eyeball that you do get.

    If every website in the world banned Googlebot tomorrow, google would cease to be relevant within days, and cease altogether within weeks. An out of date search engines isn't very powerful, is it?

    This will never even come close to happening because there will always be some people that realize the value of eyeballs, and they will want them. It has nothing to do with Google or the mainstream media, but in the value of search engines and the value of those that create content and want to be searched and found.

    Also I feel like you're extremely overvaluing the mainstream news content. There's a lot more out there besides the main stream press, and a lot of it may even qualify as providing relevant information on news that I care about.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 10:57am

    Re:

    "If every website in the world banned Googlebot tomorrow, google would cease to be relevant within days, and cease altogether within weeks. An out of date search engines isn't very powerful, is it?"

    it sure would, and we would be back to 1988 when you had to know the name of every site you were looking for, or just make enough random guesses until you landed on the right one.

    I hope Murdoch is paying his shills well....

     

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    ChurchHatesTucker (profile), Nov 9th, 2009 @ 10:58am

    Re:

    "Where would early Greek works be without DRM?"

    Dude, the Greeks were PIRATES! They'd just recite Homer's works without any kind of compensation to his grandkids! Just think how many works Homer never produced because he didn't benefit from draconian copyright laws!

     

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  15.  
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    Richard (profile), Nov 9th, 2009 @ 11:00am

    If Rupert Murdoch really wants to beat Google

    Then he has a simple recipe.

    Create a better search engine!

    Google did it once - and what happened to AltaVista, Yahoo and the others?

    It could be done again - no actually it will be done again.

    Not smart enough to do that?

    Well then you deserve to lose so don't whinge about it.

     

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  16.  
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    ChrisB (profile), Nov 9th, 2009 @ 11:01am

    Re:

    > If every website in the world banned Googlebot tomorrow,
    > google would cease to be relevant within days, and cease
    > altogether within weeks. An out of date search engines
    > isn't very powerful, is it?

    This is the stupidest thing I've read today. Why do you think the internet exploded? Without a useful search engine, the internet is a bunch of floating islands. Remember when all websites had a "useful links" page? Good links were gold. Google destroyed all that, because if you forget the link you just google it and find the page again.

    If everyone banned Goggle tomorrow, the internet would collapse.

     

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  17.  
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    Jeff, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 11:01am

    That's it.

    Someone call this a**hole up and tell him to stop whining and declare bankruptcy and just shut down News Corp. already.



    Actually, I might just do that.

     

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  18.  
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    Pat Aufderheide (profile), Nov 9th, 2009 @ 11:01am

    Fair use

    Oh Rupert. Fair use has never been in better shape and more widely used, and yes, you do use it all the time at Newscorp, no more obviously than in all your news reports. For more fair use info, especially for online video, documentary filmmakers, and media literacy teachers, check out centerforsocialmedia.org/fairuse. Sheesh.

     

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  19.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 11:02am

    lol, block Google and try to kill fair use. What does he plan to do after that? I want to hear more absurd comments from this man!

     

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  20.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 11:03am

    Re: Re:

    The costs of an individual hitting your web page approaches 0. The potential monetization is greater than that infitessimal number. The solution is not to reduce your traffic in attempts to filter out low value eyeballs, but to more effectively monetize every eyeball that you do get.

    if you listened to the interview, Murdoch stated the unhappy truth: There are very few news websites making any serious money at it. The margins are too small, the costs too high, etc.

    While it is true that the marginal costs only of one extra viewer are low, if that one extra viewer does not do anything of value, you need another viewer to try to make that up. If a signficant number of your viewers are not profitable viewers, you have an issue.

    Most regional newspapers don't want to get involved in national or internation sales, and the current crop of ad serving networks really don't pay enough to make it work out properly on a large scale. These regional papers / TV stations are set up to market to local, regional, and in some cases national interests, but not to international. The additional costs to attempt to market to an over wide audience of non-clickers is just more money down the same hole.

    Just as importantly, if the index pages of these sites are still indexed, then it is likely that someone searching for "hometown news" will still find the site in google, so they will be satisfied.

    All blocking Googlebot from stories and inside pages does is remove a huge churn of useless visitors. In Murdoch's terms, it is better to let national and international news seekers go to fox news or sky news than it is to run them through a local paper. Those international properties are set up exactly to market to people from all over the world, and do a much better job of it.

     

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  21.  
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    Hephaestus (profile), Nov 9th, 2009 @ 11:03am

    "There's a doctrine called fair use, which we believe to be challenged in the courts and would bar it altogether... but we'll take that slowly." .....
    ...

    step 1) load gun
    step 2) aim at foot
    step 3) pull trigger
    step 4) ??????
    step 5) profit!!!

     

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  22.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 11:05am

    Re:

    I heard he was going to move to the moon!

    With his cat and dastardly plans for the rest of us Earthlings!

     

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  23.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 11:06am

    Re:

    The thing is Google's "fair use" isn't saying "we found this story about such and such, look over here to read it", they just take the text of the page and use that directly. It crosses the line from the standard of fair use and moves right over to what I would call "fronting" the news. Trying to get in the way of the surfer to cause extra page views, and to benefit from the work of others.

     

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  24.  
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    Derek Reed (profile), Nov 9th, 2009 @ 11:06am

    Re: And Texas will secede from the USA

    Agreed. Google's current search is suboptimal. I find a lot of Murdoch's content irrelevant, Fox News in particular. Although the keywords match and hence show up in my search results, the dribble that spews forth is offending to both the eyes and ears.

    Here's an idea, let's start a petition to show how much we appreciate and support his efforts: http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/MurdochGoogleBan

     

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  25.  
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    Lisa (profile), Nov 9th, 2009 @ 11:07am

    Re:

    You must not of heard about the digg effect, in which aggregators linking a story result in the original site getting far more traffic then they were ever prepared to handle.

    How much traffic do you think a site would get if no one knew what kind of site it is?

     

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  26.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 11:13am

    Re: Re:

    Well, if they didn't use any of the copyrighted material then they wouldn't need a fair use claim.

     

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  27.  
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    Scott, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 11:13am

    Re:

    Ever heard of robots.txt? All he needs to do is set the file up properly on his site host, and Google will honor his request.

    http://www.robotstxt.org/faq/prevent.html

    http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer .py?hl=en&answer=156449

     

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  28.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 11:14am

    Re: Re:

    "Fronting" the news? I don't call it that at all.

    I like to call it "fairusing" the news. Or "filesharing" the news, if that gets your knickers in a twist.

     

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  29.  
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    Edmond Woychowsky, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 11:21am

    Cool

    Rupert, since you don't believe in fair use, when can I expect the check from the January 26, 2006 Wall Street Journal article that quoted me? I don't expect much, seven or eight figures will do.

     

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  30.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 11:25am

    Re: Cool

    If those were your precious words they used than I think it's time to lawyer up.

    Everything ever expressed is copyrighted the moment it is created. Those are your words. Who else has a right to use them? Without payment or permission?

    I wish you good fortune in all your endeavours.

     

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  31.  
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    Mike Masnick (profile), Nov 9th, 2009 @ 11:30am

    Re: Re:

    The thing is Google's "fair use" isn't saying "we found this story about such and such, look over here to read it", they just take the text of the page and use that directly.

    That's simply not true.

    The only news that Google posts itself (from AP and AFP) it has licensed (read:paid for) directly. The rest of it it does exactly what you said "we found this story, look over here to read it"

     

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  32.  
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    R. Miles (profile), Nov 9th, 2009 @ 11:30am

    Re:

    If every website in the world banned Googlebot tomorrow, google would cease to be relevant within days, and cease altogether within weeks.
    Well, there's a reason why everyone trashed your remark. It belongs in the Recycle Bin.

    Ever hear of image search, stores, free software, or... hold your breath... gmail?

    You're under the impression Google "takes" and you're incredibly ignorant to believe this. Google doesn't take anything people don't want listed. As stated in other comments, *anyone* can block Google's search indexer.

    Now ask yourself this: Why isn't Murdoch (et al) adding this *extremely simple* option to *their* website?

    Why? Bad press = free press = good press. Murdoch *loves* being the center of attention, and sites like Techdirt are fulfilling his desire.

    Google isn't going anywhere, but the newspaper industry is. I'm sure that for every NewsCorp site blocked by Google, "local home paper" gets added.

    And I truly believe those sites won't whine and complain about increased traffic or "stolen" news. If anything, they'll have reason to charge a bit more for the web ads.

    You really should remove yourself from the 80s and understand what *digital distribution* truly means.

    At least if you do, you won't get your fingers dirty from the ink left by products where *other* factions are whining about (save the trees!).

     

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  33.  
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    interval, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 11:40am

    Re:

    I would substitute step two with "put barrel in mouth". The only question would be is Murdoch's mouth large enough for the job. Oh Look! Its plenty big enough...

     

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  34.  
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    reechard (profile), Nov 9th, 2009 @ 11:46am

    Rupert the red-nosed mogul
    Has a very large empire
    And if you saw his holdings
    You'd see that things are quite dire
    All of the other moguls
    Used to laugh and call him names
    They never let poor Rupert
    Play in any mogul games
    Then one bearish Christmas eve
    Greenspan came to say
    “Rupert with your gold so bright Won't you buy some bonds tonight?”
    Then all the moguls loved him
    As they shouted out with glee
    “Rupert the red-nosed mogul
    You'll own all of history!"

     

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  35.  
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    Overcast (profile), Nov 9th, 2009 @ 11:52am

    Good, it will make it easier searching for real news. And not corporate garbage.

     

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  36.  
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    lavi d (profile), Nov 9th, 2009 @ 12:02pm

    Re:

    Most important, he is realizing that all the eyeballs in the world are just that, eyeballs, and nothing more.

    This is insightful.

    The problem with Murdoch's approach though, is that he doesn't want to compete with Google, he wants to cripple it.

    As Masnick points out repeatedly (and I happen to agree with), you don't grow your business by ruining the customer experience. You grow your business by finding out what the customer wants and figuring out how to provide it profitably.

     

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  37.  
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    cc, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 12:02pm

    He's also suing the BBC for copyright infringement, btw.

     

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  38.  
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    the anti-miles, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 12:11pm

    Re: Re:

    Miles, as usual, your comments are so far off the mark as to be meaningless, but hey, I will try to answer you.

    Ever hear of image search, stores, free software, or... hold your breath... gmail?

    Let's see. image search is just search on images, would also be lost on blocking. Stores? Who would come to the stores that can be found only by searching a stale search engine? Free software? What do you think pays for it (hint, google ads!). It's the same answer I give a lot of people here, you have to look past the curtain to see what is propping up what. Remove one stick, what falls down?

    You're under the impression Google "takes" and you're incredibly ignorant to believe this. Google doesn't take anything people don't want listed. As stated in other comments, *anyone* can block Google's search indexer.

    That is exactly what they are considering doing. You make it sound like he doesn't have a clue. Check your bank account, check his. Check the number of companies you own, check his list. Call me when you catch up. Just being insulting towards a very successful businessman is arrogant.

    Google isn't going anywhere, but the newspaper industry is. I'm sure that for every NewsCorp site blocked by Google, "local home paper" gets added.

    Wake up. They own the "local home paper".

    You really should remove yourself from the 80s and understand what *digital distribution* truly means.

    Snarky answer. Sorry, but digital distribution is just distribution, it isn't content. Without the content, Google is just a nice collection of software nobody is paying for. Distribution should be something you ask for, not something that is shoved onto you without permission. Murdoch is just looking for the best means to control the distribution of his products, and stating that Google doesn't have the right to make that choice for him.

     

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  39.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 12:12pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    Mike, last time I looked, it was just a headline and maybe the first few lines direct from the story, not a "look what we found" or a commentary. Seems like a direct lift with no editorial additions.

     

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  40.  
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    Derek Reed (profile), Nov 9th, 2009 @ 12:25pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    if you listened to the interview, Murdoch stated the unhappy truth: There are very few news websites making any serious money at it. The margins are too small, the costs too high, etc.

    I'd argue that's not because there getting too much traffic, but because they haven't figured out how to make any money off that traffic.

    If I open up a bar next to a college, targetting frat kids, and low and behold; I become an indie hipster hangout, then I'm going to start selling something those indie hipsters want (coffee / fancy drinks) rather than telling them to get the heck out of my store. I don't see how this is different.

    Find out who your community is (whether it's a local community or a topical community or whatever). Find out what they might pay money for. Sell it to them (either via advertising / sponsorships / partnerings or directly yourself). Connect with your user base. Offer them value. Give them a reason to buy.

    In the case of newspapers, I'd personally try something along the lines of what Mike often suggests, community building. I don't see how reducing traffic to your site, wherever that traffic comes from, does anything but hurt your community.

     

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  41.  
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    cc, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 12:42pm

    I think companies like Google and NewsNow effectively "steal" page impressions from the news sites that went through the trouble of putting the content together. While that's not very good for the news sites, it's *extremely* convenient for me as the consumer. I mean, the real problem is, instead of the news sites displaying advertising for "browsing" the news, the aggregators get do that instead at the expense of the news sites.

    Imagine these scenarios:
    1) I want to read the news, so I go to Google news and see if there's anything worth reading. If I see any headlines that look interesting, I click on them.
    2) I want to read the news, so I go to my bookmarks and start sifting through a few news sites. I visit the actual sites to see if there's anything worth reading.

    Thus, they don't get enough advertising revenue to sustain the free news.

    Solution? Stop the aggregators. Will that help? Probably too late now. So, lock down the news and charge for it. Will that work? Probably not, but who knows what other businesses can be convinced to pay for news.

     

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  42.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 1:02pm

    Re: And Texas will secede from the USA

    Yeah, let's remove the only real news out of google's news feed, that would make it really useful, it would just be a link to trash like the new york times and huffington post.

     

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  43.  
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    batch, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 1:03pm

    Please remove!

    Please let him remove all his sites from Google. The collective intelligence of the world will benefit.

     

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  44.  
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    Valkor, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 1:15pm

    Re:

    Are we looking at the same Google News? When I go, I see a headline and a summary sentence, and then a link to one or more different news sites. I click on the headline, go to the "actual" site and get barraged by the ads on the news article page. Related stories and hot links on side bars alert me to other things worth reading.

    The only difference between your scenario (1) and scenario (2) is one (1) home page impression. Google removes that intermediary step automatically. If there weren't a Google news, I'd get news on the internet like I used to; I'd visit Slashdot and Techdirt and Fark. The end result for the newspaper is awfully similar.

    Oh, there is one other difference. In (2), you maybe have time to visit your top three of four news sites before you run out of time to search and explore. In (1), you're exposed to headlines from dozens of news outlets at once. If you're a news outlet, does it make more sense to bank on being one of someone's top three, or hope that you're one of the top dozens on Google News? Looks obvious to me...

     

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  45.  
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    DanC (profile), Nov 9th, 2009 @ 1:17pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    Check your bank account, check his. Check the number of companies you own, check his list. Call me when you catch up. Just being insulting towards a very successful businessman is arrogant.

    Translation: since you're not as successful as Murdoch, you should just automatically assume every idea he has is brilliant. Sorry, that's a logical fallacy.

    The fact is, since they've always had the option to block Google's news aggregating, it's nothing but empty blustering when he bashes them.

    Distribution should be something you ask for,

    Says who?

    not something that is shoved onto you without permission.

    Sorry, the internet doesn't work that way. Linking, aggregating, embedding, etc...no permission required. If you don't want your stuff distributed on the internet, don't put it there.

     

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  46.  
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    Rasmus, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 1:20pm

    re: AC

    Most regional newspapers don't want to get involved in national or internation sales, and the current crop of ad serving networks really don't pay enough to make it work out properly on a large scale. These regional papers / TV stations are set up to market to local, regional, and in some cases national interests, but not to international. The additional costs to attempt to market to an over wide audience of non-clickers is just more money down the same hole.

    Last time I checked Murdoch controlled a global media corporation with tv-stations, newspapers, magazines and you name it. He has local ad-sales people everywhere in the world. If he where smart he would set up his own ad-network and turn all ad-sales people into local sellers for the ad-network selling exposure in ALL his media products globally.

    That way he would be able to monetize every eye-ball even if a particular eye-ball is living in Berlin, Germany and checking out an article about koala roadkill in a local paper in Adelaide, Australia.

    Rupert Murdoch has the means and the resources to do this. If he doesn't then the problem is that he is too stupid and too old. Did I mention too stupid and too old?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  47.  
    identicon
    scientes, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 1:23pm

    HORRAYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Faux News has long polluted attempts to find real coverage. Murdoch knows that the tubes don't wont when you fill them up with junk, so he has graciously taken his step to free up the tubes for the rest of us!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  48.  
    icon
    opit (profile), Nov 9th, 2009 @ 1:27pm

    Blogging

    I thought I'd kick in here because I'm an anachronism today. I'm a blogger. Seriously. I find content online...and refer it forward to readers.
    See...social networking/bookmarking isn't dead. Some of us who came up behind the rush to Wikis still share finds with our friends. Special interest newsgroups are all over the place at Current TV, Care 2, Diigo...
    The multiplying of toys to find content has meant more than grist for newsreaders and aggregators : it means networking is becoming ever easier.
    And Google or whatever don't do what failed Marigold and changed Furl did : keep a cache of an article that works like the Internet Archive and holds it on an independent server.
    Google is addictive. It does not, however, work to stash editorials or whatever for posterity. Search results are time compressed and vary. Plus there is scuttlebutt around that the feds are playing with search parameters to aid obfuscation : hiding the truth.
    The truth is poison in politics. We've been having far too much fun with it.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  49.  
    icon
    The Groove Tiger (profile), Nov 9th, 2009 @ 1:28pm

    Re: Re:

    Holy crap! Really? Wow, those Google thieves. Instead of saying "hey there's some cool news at news corp! go there and read it!" they actually index the story and tell you if it's about tanks, puppies or the economy! The scoundrels...

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  50.  
    icon
    The Groove Tiger (profile), Nov 9th, 2009 @ 1:31pm

    Why exactly doesn't Google take the first steps and remove those sites itself? It would save Murdoch the work of having to open robots.txt in his notepad. I'm sure he will be very happy about it... no more aggregator, no more Google Search results about him or his newscorp.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  51.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 1:33pm

    Re: Murdoch Says Fair Use Can Be Barred By Courts

    That's not fair!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  52.  
    identicon
    Bob, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 1:47pm

    Re: Re:

    "You must not of heard about the digg effect,"

    You must be new around here...

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  53.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 2:13pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    @AC

    Mike, last time I looked, it was just a headline and maybe the first few lines direct from the story, not a "look what we found" or a commentary. Seems like a direct lift with no editorial additions.

    And what's your point? That somehow that headline lead to loss of some sale?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  54.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 2:23pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    If I can read the headlines and the first paragraph on google, why would I go to the website? I got the information I needed without consulting the site that created the content, and the site that created the content got nothing for it.

    Google is very, very close on the edge of fair use. Their moto is "do no evil" but they are proving to be a very evil company indeed.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  55.  
    identicon
    steve, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 2:40pm

    Murdoch's lock

    I have long wondered why WSJ stories are accessible on-line during the initial search but then locked when you share them with others (e.g., via social media channels). It's unbelievable actually.
    In my case, I'm a subscriber to the print edition of the WSJ. When I come across a story that I think my followers on Twitter would enjoy, I find the link on-line and share it. Then hundreds (or even thousands) of others may come in contact with a story, a journalist, the WSJ brand, and its advertisers, who may not have otherwise. And then each of those recipients has a unique opportunity to share it in their own social media circles...
    The decision to charge for this content appears to be driven by a scarcity mentality that suggests, "If we don't sell the story, some one else will." The mentality Murdoch may want to consider is one of abundance.
    I understand that journalists need to get paid and that ad revenue alone may not generate sufficient sales to operate the news services according to current models - that's why current models need to be examined and shaped according to the future of media.
    I don't pretend to have this future figured out but I feel confident that it is more closely aligned with abundance than scarcity and doesn't include content restrictions from major news sources.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  56.  
    identicon
    alternatives(), Nov 9th, 2009 @ 2:59pm

    Rup - save the drama, just put in a block

    Just block them and your problem is solved Mr. Murdock.

    Man up and take action VS your jaw jack'n.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  57.  
    identicon
    Jason, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 3:02pm

    Re:

    Ya see, they got ther new-fangled fer use dock-trine now, but it's jest a passin' thang.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  58.  
    identicon
    teknosapien, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 3:29pm

    Way to strick back

    At all those AD's that were pulled do to bias/and creation of non-news news

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  59.  
    identicon
    dorp, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 3:37pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    If I can read the headlines and the first paragraph on google, why would I go to the website? I got the information I needed without consulting the site that created the content, and the site that created the content got nothing for it.

    If that is all the news you ever consume, you sir, are a moron. What you actually claiming here is that full articles are useless and that news websites can just do headlines and nothing else.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  60.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 4:13pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    If the news article is so shallow and uninteresting that all you need is the lede, the problem lies with that news publication (and/or your ignorance), not Google.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  61.  
    icon
    DanC (profile), Nov 9th, 2009 @ 4:18pm

    Re:

    You're making it sound like Google News provides nothing to the news sites, which obviously isn't true. If it were, every news site would simply modify their robots.txt file and be done with it. Google News sends visitors to the news sites - what they don't like is that Google makes money on providing a service making fair use of their material.

    Your "solution" of stopping the aggregators simply wouldn't work, regardless. The newspapers all complain about Google, knowing full well they can block it easily. It's posturing, plain and simple - they don't want to lose the audience Google sends their way. So they raise the threat of a paywall, to see if they can get Google to cough up some money for them.

    The newspapers aren't interested in solving their problems - they're interested in finding someone to blame, and trying to make them pay. Paywalls have been tried before, and for the most part have failed miserably. And without the ability to share links, social networks won't touch the sites. Micropayments are another dead-end - nobody wants to break out their credit card to read a news story.

    It's not the aggregator's fault the news sites are losing money - they're just being used as scapegoats. The real problem is the news sites themselves, who have developed a massive sense of entitlement to any use of their content. They think if they can just "take back the news", everything will be fine, except what they're proposing is essentially a suicide pact.

     

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  62.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 5:08pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Please don't insult the morons as their lot in life cannot be helped but anyone who thinks a headline and the lede are news needs to read more.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  63.  
    identicon
    Derek, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 5:36pm

    Good riddance, Rupert!

    I had given up on Google News because it treats Fox like a credible news source.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  64.  
    icon
    Allen (profile), Nov 9th, 2009 @ 9:06pm

    Re:

    "Why exactly doesn't Google take the first steps and remove those sites itself?"

    Because Google aren't stupid?

    A company with Google's market share needs to be really careful to avoid knowingly damaging someone else's business.

    Murdoch knows as well as Google does that they have a symbiotic relationship. Murdoch is just posturing as part of their on going negotiations with Google for a bigger slice of the pie.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  65.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 9:18pm

    Well, some people treat Fox like a credible news source because Google's algorithms are based on clicks and not content. Thusly, many of the featured news articles are featured higher than others.

    At times like these, I turn to more enlightening conversations by Murdoch's adversaries.

    Said Sumner Redstone:
    "He basically wants to conquer the world," says Sumner Redstone, the chairman of Viacom. "And he seems to be doing it."
    Source: Annals Of Communications. The New Yorker - November 13, 1995

    Said Ted Turner:
    Rupert Murdoch is is a bad journalist. Sloppy journalist. He runs Britain. I asked Tony Blair why he was allowed to have so much influence and Tony Blair said, "I wouldn't have my job without Rupert." He wants to rule the world. He has Britain, almost has Australia and he would like the US. He has no interest in helping anyone, in charity. He won't even give you an interview. He's not interesting in whether what he is doing is right or wrong.

    The $1M/yr I was getting as Vice Chairman was just hush money.
    Source: 2004 Dinner Interview with Ted Turner


    Now I have no way of knowing if these actual interviews occurred, but the concept of "Ruling The World" has come up several times. But it's worth looking at. He seems to have an uncanny way of setting up people for failure. For example, Chase Carey was CEO of DirecTV. He left shortly after John Malone, acting through his company, Liberty Media, was somehow convinced to divest his interest in IAC. After Malone divested IAC, Barry Diller moved to start his own business, and IPO a company that would focus on internet delivery of content including direct-to-home.


    Vertical integration is bad. And that's why I never use Hulu.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  66.  
    identicon
    steve, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 9:59pm

    Re: Re:

    Dan,
    Hear! Hear!
    Steve

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  67.  
    identicon
    lofa, Nov 9th, 2009 @ 11:55pm

    Good. Let him block his propaganda garbage from Google. Who cares about Murd(er)och. He's just another greedy money monster.

    As the old saying goes, a fool and his money soon part.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  68.  
    identicon
    Franssu, Nov 10th, 2009 @ 6:11am

    Re: Re:

    "If everyone banned Goggle tomorrow, the internet would collapse."

    It is precisely what they want, since they can't begin to imagine how to adapt to the new reality. Unfortunately for them, it won't happen and they will become completely irrelevant.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  69.  
    icon
    Dark Helmet (profile), Nov 10th, 2009 @ 6:29am

    Re:

    "Now I have no way of knowing if these actual interviews occurred, but the concept of "Ruling The World" has come up several times."

    I'd be more apt to listen to Teddy boy on this one if he wasn't regularly dining with Murdoch at Council on Foreign Relations meetings, Trilateral Commission meetings, and Bilderburger meetings where they ALSO talk about running or taking over the world.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  70.  
    identicon
    MattP, Nov 10th, 2009 @ 7:46am

    Re: Re: Re:

    "Distribution should be something you ask for, not something that is shoved onto you without permission."

    From foxnews.com's robots.txt file

    User-agent: *
    Disallow: /printer_friendly_story
    Disallow: /projects/livestream
    #
    User-agent: gsa-crawler
    Allow: /printer_friendly_story
    Allow: /google_search_index.xml
    Allow: /google_news_index.xml
    Allow: /*.xml.gz
    #

    Seems like they're pretty specifically asking for it. Despite all the hot air being spouted about the evils of Google they know it provides value to them.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  71.  
    identicon
    MattP, Nov 10th, 2009 @ 7:48am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    ^ Bingo!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  72.  
    icon
    DanC (profile), Nov 10th, 2009 @ 9:24am

    Re: Murdoch's lock

    I have long wondered why WSJ stories are accessible on-line during the initial search but then locked when you share them with others (e.g., via social media channels). It's unbelievable actually.

    It's actually more evidence that Murdoch is trying to spread FUD about Google. The WSJ checks the referrer header, and if it comes from Google, you get to see the full article. If the link didn't come from Google, you don't.

    Murdoch knows full well that Google provides a valuable service to his organizations, he just doesn't want to have to admit it.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  73.  
    icon
    Michael Loc (profile), Nov 12th, 2009 @ 1:33am

    Re:

    A SITE that nobody knows exists isn't very powerful, is it?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  74.  
    identicon
    ipsographic, Nov 12th, 2009 @ 5:52am

    The truth is that the newspapers are scared, REALLY scared, they are losing their power, and therefore money, because of the internet; Murdoch's desparately trying to claw back some of that power.

    And it doesn't matter that he is being hypocritical, that will occur to very few who hear his words, and the fact is that just by making this statement will give him a tiny bit of extra fame and power.

    BTW Homer didn't actually create 'his' works, he only wrote down the popular tales of the time.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  75.  
    identicon
    Max, Oct 22nd, 2013 @ 1:21pm

    Bankruptcy help

    Since a sole proprietorship is not a separate legal entity, it cannot file a Chapter 7 bankruptcy on its own. When a sole proprietor files a personal Chapter 7 bankruptcy, the business also files as a result.
    bankruptcy advice

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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