Does The White House Have Any Legal Right To Demand No Modifications To Its Photos?

from the doesn't-appear-that-way dept

You may recall earlier this year that there was a fair bit of controversy when the White House started putting photos up on Flickr. Or, rather, there was controversy over the licensing. Everyone thought it was great that the White House would have its own Flickr channel and constantly post photos -- but since Flickr only had certain licensing options that you could put on a photo, there was a problem. Even though the White House chose a Creative Commons Attribution license at the time, that was still too much. Government documents are not covered by copyright, and the photos clearly should be public domain. After a bit of back-and-forth, Flickr created a special public domain license so the White House could properly designate the photos.

And yet... it appears that the White House is now trying to claw back some rights over these photos that it just doesn't have. Tim Lee points out that along with these officials photos is a licensing claim that goes well beyond the public domain, stating:
This official White House photograph is being made available only for publication by news organizations and/or for personal use printing by the subject(s) of the photograph. The photograph may not be manipulated in any way and may not be used in commercial or political materials, advertisements, emails, products, promotions that in any way suggests approval or endorsement of the President, the First Family, or the White House.
The problem is the White House has no right to say that you can't manipulate the photo, since the photo is public domain. It's really unfortunate that, once again, we're seeing how little people seem to understand (or value) the public domain.


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  1.  
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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Nov 6th, 2009 @ 12:25pm

    I disagree.

    It's really unfortunate that, once again, we're seeing how little people seem to understand (or value) the public domain.

    I disagree. This is probably a case of smart people who understand know little people understand about the public domain, and are using that knowledge in their attempt to keep people from doing things that they wouldn't like with those photos.

    I wouldn't assume that the people who posted that notice don't actually understand public domain until I see them file a lawsuit when someone does exercise their rights and use those photos in an attention-getting way.

     

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  2.  
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    Brendan (profile), Nov 6th, 2009 @ 12:44pm

    Re: I disagree.

    But they shouldn't be making such claims to rights they don't hold.

    1) It's wrong. They don't have the right to prevent such activity. (And any lawsuit would find the same.)
    2) It only further complicates the issues of Copyright and Public Domain to a public which already has enough trouble in that area.

     

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    :Lobo Santo (profile), Nov 6th, 2009 @ 1:02pm

    Re: Re: I disagree.

    Pish. Easier answer: there is no 'Public Domain'

    Public domain is simply a pair of words used to describe the non-space and non-rights of the public at large. Your gov (by corporations, for corporations) owns it all--and if you disagree hard enough they'll send cops/FBI/CIA/Guantomo Bay guards/National Guard (other, etc, ad nauseaum) and physically force you to see it their way. Face it, if you live in the USA then you live in a fascist republic.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 6th, 2009 @ 1:06pm

    I pity the poor public domain. It's grown so slowly this past century. So much human knowledge and expression sitting in some vault somewhere.

    Maybe they'll dust it off and show it around, let the people get a good look at their past achievements. Unless it breaks INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY laws. Then that small slice of human culture should remain locked down.

    People might share it. Can't have that. Shouldn't share culture. It isn't right.

    It isn't proper.

     

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    Anonymous1, Nov 6th, 2009 @ 1:07pm

    Face it, if you live in the USA then you live in a fascist republic.

    HAHAHAHA. Totally incorrect. The fact that this is coming from the top however, is pathetic.

     

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  6.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 6th, 2009 @ 1:15pm

    I think you may be missing the point here.

    The photos may be "public domain", but the people in them are NOT. They have the right to control their image, and the use of their image and likeness. So no matter how much the images themselves are in the public domain, you cannot scrub off the rights of the people appearing in them.

    It's two different things, and sort of indicates that you might not truly understand everything that goes into image rights.

     

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  7.  
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    Dark Helmet (profile), Nov 6th, 2009 @ 1:17pm

    Re:

    Hmm, which part of the following wiki definition does not apply to American government today:

    "Fascism, pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/, is a political ideology that seeks to combine radical and authoritarian nationalism with a corporatist economic system, and which is usually considered to be on the far right of the traditional left-right political spectrum."

    1. This country is RIFE with radical and authoritarian nationalism: All that Buy American, love the American Way, You're either with us or against us, flag waving rah rah rah bullshit is THE definition of nationalism.

    2. I can't believe someone who has exhibited intelligence in the past would argue that we don't have a corporatist economic system.

    3. Even with the Dems now in power, we're still on the far right of the spectrum in terms of global politics. And I mean FAR right. Plus, if you're like me you believe that the whole Democrat vs. Republican is simply a control mechanism created solely for public consumption.

    Sorry to disagree again, but we're a fascist nation, no two ways about it...

     

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    Dark Helmet (profile), Nov 6th, 2009 @ 1:18pm

    Re:

    Wouldn't that be negated by their being in a public place? (If, in fact, these photos are depicting solely public places).

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 6th, 2009 @ 1:31pm

    Re: Re:

    Nope, again, it's the issue of use of likeness or image. The photos can be used for news and whatever, but they cannot be used for, say, selling cars or promoting certain issues. President Obama (and everyone else in the images) has the right to control how their likeness is used, outside of the "news" world.

    While he may be the President, he still has the same rights that your or I have when it comes to this.

     

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    Free Capitalist (profile), Nov 6th, 2009 @ 1:41pm

    Re: Re:

    we're a fascist nation, no two ways about it...


    I'm going to have to disagree with you somewhat. Wikipedia has slathered the definition up with some post-modern philosophizing, but the classic definition of fascism includes true authoritarianism which requires a single dictator a la Hitler / Mussolini / that dude in Spain who ruled until the 70's that I can't remember right now.

    If the PotUS has absolute power without being beholden to the congress or SCoTUS, then they make a pretty good show of covering up the process.

    That's not to say I want to blow sunshine up anyone's CEO, on the contrary, we do give all appearances of being a Corporate Republic (by large corporations, for large corporations). When Congress talks about the People they seem to talk about "consumers" a lot more than they talk about "citizens" these days... to me that's the tip-off.

    There is a lot similar to fascism in the way things are run, but it doesn't come off as fascism as defined in the classic sense. We would need someone like The Helmet to abscond with the Presidency and dissolve (i.e. replace) an elected congress and the SCotUS before we reach that pinnacle.

     

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    :Lobo Santo (profile), Nov 6th, 2009 @ 1:46pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    No point in dissolving the presidency. IMHO, Prez job is to distract people from those who are in power. Plus, people are happier (i.e. less prone to violent revolt) if they believe they live in a 'free' country.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 6th, 2009 @ 1:54pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    That all may (or may not) be correct, but that still doesn't cover the first part:

    "The photograph may not be manipulated in any way..."

     

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    Rose M. Welch (profile), Nov 6th, 2009 @ 1:56pm

    Re: Re: I disagree.

    I agree that it's wrong and complicates the issues of copyright and public domain. I also agree that they would lose such a lawsuit.

    I disagree with the sentence that I highlighted, which seems to conclude that this notice was added by people who don't understand the law. I disagree. I think it's probable that they understand the law and are just taking advantage of the fact that Joe Sixpack does not understand the law.

     

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    Mark Murphy (profile), Nov 6th, 2009 @ 1:56pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    Nope, again, it's the issue of use of likeness or image.


    I invite you to look at this image from the White House Flickr stream. Please point out the living person whose likeness is being controlled by the licensing statement.

     

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    Dark Helmet (profile), Nov 6th, 2009 @ 2:00pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    "but the classic definition of fascism includes true authoritarianism which requires a single dictator a la Hitler / Mussolini / that dude in Spain who ruled until the 70's that I can't remember right now."

    Close, but incorrect. The definition requires authoritarian rule by a single or SMALL NUMBER of individuals. And there is nothing in ANY of the definitions that require that ruler or rulers be known to the ruled. Fascism dressed up as democracy is not only still fascism, but is probably the most effective form of it.

    "If the PotUS has absolute power without being beholden to the congress or SCoTUS, then they make a pretty good show of covering up the process."

    That'd be impossible. Instead, perhaps those truly in power control it all and allign their pawns so that it appears that the people are well represented by adversarial parties (Dems vs. Reps that essentially are the same are another example).

    "we do give all appearances of being a Corporate Republic..."

    Benito Mussolini famously said that the key to fascism was the convergence of state and industry, and that the early stages of fascism would better be called corporatism. With the Axis powers, the state ended up controlling industry. No where does it say that industry controlling the state would result in any difference.

    "but it doesn't come off as fascism as defined in the classic sense."

    No, it doesn't "come off" that way, because we're constantly bombarded with the idea that we're free. We're not. Sorry.

    "We would need someone like The Helmet to abscond with the Presidency and dissolve (i.e. replace) an elected congress and the SCotUS before we reach that pinnacle."

    You're joking, and it's funny, but that isn't the way it would be done anymore. Lessons were learned from the early part of the century. You don't dissolve anymore, because that draws too much attention. You simply take over. I've suggested books in the past. I suggest reading them. You might not completely agree with them or me, but they're well sourced and they might change how you think to one degree or another....

     

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  16.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 6th, 2009 @ 2:07pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Larry King.

     

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    Dark Helmet (profile), Nov 6th, 2009 @ 2:11pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "Larry King."

    Seriously, that was awesome, but only becuase I read your comment first and tried to figure out what could possibly be in that photo that would infringe on Larry King's personage...

     

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  18.  
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    Mike Masnick (profile), Nov 6th, 2009 @ 2:16pm

    Re:

    The photos may be "public domain", but the people in them are NOT.

    Yes, that does not change the fact that the photos are public domain and can, in fact, be modified.

    They have the right to control their image, and the use of their image and likeness.

    That is not quite true under US law. It depends on the situation and the state, but for the most part, they DO NOT have unique control over their image and likeness. Depending on the local laws, they may have control, especially in commercial situations, but the license goes significantly beyond that.

    So no matter how much the images themselves are in the public domain, you cannot scrub off the rights of the people appearing in them.

    Right. Nor do you get to make up non-existent "image rights" that do not exist within the law, as you appear to have done. There are state-level publicity rights issues, but a blanked claim by the White House is simply incorrect.

     

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  19.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 6th, 2009 @ 2:17pm

    Re: I disagree.

    This is probably a case of smart people who understand know little people understand about the public domain, and are using that knowledge in their attempt to keep people from doing things that they wouldn't like with those photos.

    I agree. It looks like a pretty obvious case of copyfraud by the Obama administration to me.

     

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  20.  
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    Jason, Nov 6th, 2009 @ 2:20pm

    Re: I disagree.

    I think you're saying the same thing.

     

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    Jason, Nov 6th, 2009 @ 2:22pm

    Re: Re: Re: I disagree.

    No, it goes back and forth every few years from fascist republic to socialist republic in waves.

     

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    Jason, Nov 6th, 2009 @ 2:30pm

    Re: Re:

    Well, when the government buys out the corporations it is no longer corporatist. A radical, authoritarian nationalism where the government controls the factors of production is socialism or even comunism, NOT fascism.

    Oh, and you've got something on your helmet there.

    Oh and on number 3 you're just completely wrong. Like WAY wrong. Except for the last sentence, yeah that's about it.

    Like I said earlier, we swing back and forth from fascism to socialism and are currently a really ugly interspecial thing that probably should cover its face with dark, opaque head gear - oh uh, sorry.

     

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    zcat (profile), Nov 6th, 2009 @ 2:31pm

    Or perhaps copyright isn't the only right involved?

    NASA have similar restrictions; the photos themselves are public domain, but you may not use them in a way that implies endorsement by NASA (a trademark infringement)

    And in the case of photos featuring identifiable people, you also need a 'model release' from the subject of the photo for some uses.

    And this all has nothing to do with copyright.

     

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  24.  
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    Jason, Nov 6th, 2009 @ 2:34pm

    Re:

    Actually, being a public figure is the deciding factor by the Supreme Court in determining that they DON'T have a right to control the use of their image and likeness (cf. paparazzi).

    So no matter what kind of crap you want to make up, we already HAVE scrubbed those 'rights', or more specifically THEY scrubbed those rights (namely the right to privacy) when they decided to be public figures.

     

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  25.  
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    Dark Helmet (profile), Nov 6th, 2009 @ 2:34pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    Hm, you wouldn't consider the USA to be on the far right of the global political spectrum?

    Maybe this is just one of those things we'd have to disagree on then, because I sure as hell do. Even most folks in government will generally agree that we are a relatively conservative people...

     

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  26.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 6th, 2009 @ 2:41pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    the classic definition of fascism includes true authoritarianism...

    Authoritarianism describes a form of government characterized by an emphasis on the authority of state in a republic or union. It is a political system controlled by typically non-elected rulers who usually permit some degree of individual freedom.

    Check.

    ...which requires a single dictator a la Hitler / Mussolini / that dude in Spain who ruled until the 70's that I can't remember right now.

    Nope, that's a dictatorship. Now a dictatorship can also be fascist, but the two terms are not interchangeable. However, speaking of Mussolini, Mussolini called his nation's system "the corporate state".

    Check.

     

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  27.  
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    Jason, Nov 6th, 2009 @ 2:41pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Consider the perspective of Muslim nations, we're a bunch of naked hippies. Consider China, and we're Hitler, but you don't mind doing business with us if it can make you look good.

    No, not on the far right. If we really wanted to talk reality, then we're probably fairly central and swing back and forth in a really odd, sort of extremist way that defies the notion of what is a moderate.

    I'll only disagree with you on odd days of the week, but I reserve the right to determine which those are.

     

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  28.  
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    Jason, Nov 6th, 2009 @ 2:48pm

    Re: Or perhaps copyright isn't the only right involved?

    Exactly, and I think we all get the idea behind why they've done this.

    They're tired of all the adds about what Obama wants you to do, especially the ones that crowd their Facebook pages where they get all their important decisions made.

    HOWEVER, the existing laws already cover this and they are using the verbiage of the blurb, or as I like to say, the blurbiage, to tack on MORE rights that they DON'T have - namely telling you that you can't 'manipulate it in any way' and by saying it's "ONLY" for the "News Organizations" which obviously they intend at some point to exclude FOX (mostly sarcasm there I think, but not totally sure).

     

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    Dark Helmet (profile), Nov 6th, 2009 @ 2:52pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "Consider the perspective of Muslim nations, we're a bunch of naked hippies. Consider China, and we're Hitler, but you don't mind doing business with us if it can make you look good."

    Okay, I see the problem, you're talking about our median score on the spectrum (which, btw, is probably the right measure of what I said), when I'm looking at us based on our mean political spectrum score throughout the world. In other words, no we're not far right if you take the most right/left examples throughout history and call that the spectrum. My spectrum is more about averages in the world, and chops off the outliers (like most good statistics do). In which case I stand by what I said.

    "No, not on the far right. If we really wanted to talk reality, then we're probably fairly central and swing back and forth in a really odd, sort of extremist way that defies the notion of what is a moderate."

    But does that actually happen, or are we fooled into thinking so with pretty words like republican and democrat? I'm not so sure I see a great deal of difference during these idealogical "changes". More so I simply see the steady march forward. I have my suspicians as to who is behind this, but they're extreme enough that most folks laugh, which is their right of course.

    "I'll only disagree with you on odd days of the week, but I reserve the right to determine which those are."

    Heh, fair enough, but all of my days are odd, so I'm not sure how much that helps me ;)

     

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  30.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 6th, 2009 @ 2:53pm

    Re:

    The photos may be "public domain", but the people in them are NOT. They have the right to control their image, and the use of their image and likeness. So no matter how much the images themselves are in the public domain, you cannot scrub off the rights of the people appearing in them.

    I'm sure there are lots of people who with that were true, but it isn't. At least not in the US.

     

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    Free Capitalist (profile), Nov 6th, 2009 @ 2:55pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I'm pretty sure I understand what your writing DH, but my point is that, at least in this country, the art of centralizing control of government to serve the interests of established corporations has clearly evolved beyond the original definition of the word fascism.

    I would also still argue that the reality of corporations controlling the government does not fall into the original context of a state/authoritarian controlled economy that defined fascism.

    Call me a Grammar Nazi, as that's the role I'm playing here. All I'm saying is that it is because of the images the word "fascist" conjures, calling the current method of government pandering to corporations "fascist" would mislead the common, somewhat educated person who would be looking for a pronounced dictator to verify the claim of "fascism".

    The word fascism carried with it a certain... I don't know... penchant (in the past before it was over-used) for creating a "moral panic", and thus it was favored by the hippies and follow on practitioners of modern liberalism (I'm not identifying "The Democratic Party" here... not by a long shot).

    However I think the modern practice deserves a better, more precise word/term to define its nature. If we need a term that evokes more loathe than "Corporate Republic", perhaps "Shadow Government Fuck The Little Guy Raporism" would suffice? I'm not that great of a wordsmith, however.

    I also agree with Lobo's assessment of the President being more image and puppet than executive or even CIC.

    We do both agree that it is a small number of people who wield true power in government, and they don't seem to play for us.

     

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  32.  
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    Rick, Nov 6th, 2009 @ 3:00pm

    Are you nbot paying attention Mike?

    From the quote you used: "..that in any way suggests approval or endorsement of the President, the First Family, or the White House."

    In particular they are only saying you can not suggest official approval or endorsement of any modifications. As long as you don't imply such, you can stil do as you please with the photographs. They are still public domain.

    They are just covering their legal obligations, not expanding copyright. After all, it is illegal to 'impersonate' a government official, they're just clarifying the fact.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 6th, 2009 @ 3:02pm

    Re: Or perhaps copyright isn't the only right involved?

    NASA have similar restrictions; the photos themselves are public domain, but you may not use them in a way that implies endorsement by NASA (a trademark infringement)

    But that does mean that they cannot be modified, as the White House is claiming with these photos.

    And in the case of photos featuring identifiable people, you also need a 'model release' from the subject of the photo for some uses.

    "Some" uses, not all.

     

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  34.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 6th, 2009 @ 3:02pm

    Re: Are you nbot paying attention Mike?

    Good job reading less than half the notice. You seem to have missed...

    "This official White House photograph is being made available only for publication by news organizations and/or for personal use printing by the subject(s) of the photograph. The photograph may not be manipulated in any way..."

     

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    Free Capitalist (profile), Nov 6th, 2009 @ 3:02pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    and also, I appreciate what you're taking the time to illustrate here in this forum.

    "Free your mind, your ass will follow". Live free as best you can no matter where you live.

     

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  36.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 6th, 2009 @ 3:37pm

    Everyone seems to assume (including the individual at the EFF) that the photos in question are in the public domain" by virtue of 17 USC 105. However, that assumption is premature in the absence of a factual demonstration that the person(s) who took the photographs is in fact an employee of the USG within the meaning of Title 17.

    Moreover, note that the statute does recognize that the USG may hold copyright in works transferred to it by assignment, bequest or devise.

     

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  37.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 6th, 2009 @ 3:46pm

    Re:

    You are aware that those "assumptions" were shared by...the USG...which prompted the whole new Flickr "license" situation in the first place?

     

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  38.  
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    The Groove Tiger (profile), Nov 6th, 2009 @ 3:50pm

    Re:

    That implies that you can manipulate the photos, but not the people. Which is incorrect. People manipulate each other all the time.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 6th, 2009 @ 3:56pm

    Re:

    Everyone seems to assume (including the individual at the EFF) that the photos in question are in the public domain" by virtue of 17 USC 105.

    Well, there is that little "United States Government Work" bit right on the page there, now isn't there? So why, other than having the natural inclination of a copyright shill, would you suggest otherwise?

     

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    Jason, Nov 6th, 2009 @ 4:02pm

    Re: Are you nbot paying attention Mike?

    If that was their desire, then they need to learn to write. As it is written, "that in any way suggests approval..." only modifies "may not be used in...." leaving "may not be manipulated in any way" completely unmodified.

    AND THAT to say nothing of "being made available only for publication by news organizations and/or for personal use printing by the subject(s) of the photograph." which, contrary to your empty assertion, most certainly asserts both copyright and license.

     

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    Dark Helmet (profile), Nov 6th, 2009 @ 4:17pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "I would also still argue that the reality of corporations controlling the government does not fall into the original context of a state/authoritarian controlled economy that defined fascism."

    I don't care about the afore mentioned images. Fascism is a word, and it has a definition. I've yet to hear any reason why that definition wouldn't apply to American today (other than maybe we aren't far enough to the right end of the spectrum, something I just don't agree with). In Fascism, the state and industry are one. That applies to the States.

     

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    Brendan (profile), Nov 6th, 2009 @ 4:28pm

    Re: Re: Re: I disagree.

    Fair enough.

     

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    lux (profile), Nov 6th, 2009 @ 4:40pm

    Bored

    Anyone else getting bored of these "controversial" copyright articles?

    Mike, can you post something a bit more upbeat, where it actually looks like people of our like-mindedness are winning the fight, instead stories of the Internet being fought over at by people who know nothing about technology?

    Is anyone else getting far too depressed reading Techdirt arcticle after Techdirt article?

    This is by no means a troll, but I am honestly wondering why I come here to read these stories; I see no light at the end of the tunnel, just illogical acts being made into law and whatnot.

    What I mean to say is, if I want to be depressed when reading an article, I'll just go to CNN!

    :D

     

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  44.  
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    Mike Masnick (profile), Nov 6th, 2009 @ 5:49pm

    Re: Bored

    Mike, can you post something a bit more upbeat, where it actually looks like people of our like-mindedness are winning the fight, instead stories of the Internet being fought over at by people who know nothing about technology?

    Heh. We do post "upbeat" articles pretty frequently, of content creators who get it and are doing well...

     

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  45.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Nov 6th, 2009 @ 6:49pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I would also still argue that the reality of corporations controlling the government does not fall into the original context of a state/authoritarian controlled economy that defined fascism.

    Mussolini called his nation's system "the corporate state" (Rao, B. V. History of Modern Europe Ad 1789-2002. Sterling Publishers Pvt. Ltd, 2006. p. 215). A corporate state is one with a political culture of corporatism in which the corporate group is the basis of the state, as exemplified and developed by Benito Mussolini.

    That sounds a lot like what we have today. So, are you really trying to say that Mussolini wasn't a fascist by your standards?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  46.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 7th, 2009 @ 3:44pm

    Re: Re:

    Mike,
    You are right, celebrities and public figures do not have unique control over their images. Tabloids can snap whatever images they want and run it, however unflattering. BUT, i think you will find that the celebrity/public figure can protect their image with regards to product endorsements.
    I can't just take a picture of Michael Jordan, stick it next to my hypothetical new line of shoes and pass it off as a protected use.
    I agree the pictures are public domain, but i think the right asserted to limit the image use in "commercial or political materials, advertisements, emails, products, promotions that in any way suggests approval or endorsement of the President" is correct. You can still use the images for whatever purpose, including commerce and satire, but you can't put it next to a product to suggest an endorsement. I feel that's reasonable.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  47.  
    identicon
    ntlgnce, Nov 8th, 2009 @ 7:26am

    DUH, No story here, you should be fired.

    The white house is not saying you cant change the photo, they are saying that you cant use the photo to make it look like the white house endorses whatever it is you are using the photo for. END OF STORY. Now go find something worth reporting fool.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  48.  
    identicon
    Dale Sheldon, Nov 8th, 2009 @ 8:36pm

    Civil Disobediance

    I dunno; that "and" between "manipulated in any way" and "may not be used in..." sounds like they are asserting BOTH that you can't use it for those purposes AND that you can't manipulated them in any way. If that "and" was a "for" then there'd be no complaint.

    Anyway. Folks who are crying about how wrong this is, I invite you to put up or shut up. I have. The White House; you have my email.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  49.  
    identicon
    imaanuroos, Mar 15th, 2010 @ 4:54pm

    i tahnk it is yes

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  50.  
    identicon
    Rolo, Jul 20th, 2010 @ 8:17pm

    Re: Re: Re: I disagree.

    no such thing as a "fascist republic" . That's like saying "dry water". It's either fascist or republic. In the case of the U.S. it is fascist.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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