Canadian Copyright Group Sending Huge Bills To Schools For Daring To Teach Kids With Photocopies

from the can't-educate-unless-you-pay-up dept

A recent ruling by the Copyright Board of Canada has changed how much schools had to pay for copying educational materials, such as textbooks, newspapers and magazines. Michael Geist lets us know that collections group Access Copyright, apparently wasted little time before sending bills that reached hundreds of thousands of dollars to various school districts. Apparently, you can't educate kids unless you pay up.


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  1.  
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    Dark Helmet (profile), Sep 29th, 2009 @ 11:16am

    Huh...

    "Canadian Copyright Group Sending Huge Bills To Schools For Daring To Teach Kids With Photocopies"

    The only way this could be more infuriatingly funny would be if they pulled out a "Think of the children" defense of their actions, just to round out the absurdity....

     

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  2.  
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    Canadian Goose, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 11:24am

    Re: Huh...

    If they owners of the copyright don't get paid for their work then they won't keep making quality educational material. They will go bankrupt and us Canadians will be forced to use education material from our neighbors to the south. What do you think will happen to our children's education then, eh? Thank you Access Copyright for thinking of the children!

     

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  3.  
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    Chuck Norris' Enemy (deceased) (profile), Sep 29th, 2009 @ 11:27am

    Drop 'em!

    When will schools say 'Enough!'?
    All we need is a netbook for each child and WiFi hubs on school grounds. We can access thorough information on any topic that teachers can approve on websites for free. We can access newspaper and magazine articles for free. I am certain that the cost of maintaining a WiFi connection would be peanuts when compared with the costs of textbooks that are "Edition" changes with little change happens besides the art on the cover. Sadly, the schools will in turn, go to the government and get more money to pay these copyright collectors. And the government will gladly increase your taxes...you know...'for the children.'

     

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  4.  
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    Anonymous Poster, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 11:28am

    What a bunch of dicks.

     

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  5.  
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    LoL, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 11:32am

    Open source educational books

    Teachers everywhere should start using open source books.
    It is a reality for many already and it cost a lot less.

     

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  6.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 11:38am

    Re: Re: Huh...

    you forgot the /satire tags.

     

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  7.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 11:42am

    I'm fairly certain that the lobbyists would never let it happen, but are there any legal reasons that prevents the government from enacting a fair use exemption for copying done for educational purposes?

     

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    Hephaestus (profile), Sep 29th, 2009 @ 11:47am

    Re: Re: Huh...

    There is open source educational material up to the 4 yr college level. Just use that and be done with it ...

    ...but of course the publishers will ask us to ... "think of the children what sort of quality education can you get from FREE text book!"

    ...and we all know what poor quality educations come out of MIT ... sarcasm

    here are a couple links in case you are interested ...
    Google Search on - MIT educational resources
    MIT K-12
    MIT Open Course ware

     

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  9.  
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    zaven (profile), Sep 29th, 2009 @ 11:47am

    Re: Huh...

    You stole the words out of my mouth Helmet. I checked the comments just to see if someone already said "Think of the children"

     

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  10.  
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    Hephaestus (profile), Sep 29th, 2009 @ 11:47am

    Re: Re: Re: Huh...

    I dont think he is kidding or being sarcastic

     

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  11.  
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    LoL, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 11:54am

    Open source educational books

    Connexions is a good source too and advanced.

    Wikipedia also have a lot of info about it.

    And if people are not familiar with it they should see the TED talk "Richard Baraniuk on open-source learning" that explains a lot and is responsible for the Connexions project(I think).

     

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  12.  
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    Hephaestus (profile), Sep 29th, 2009 @ 11:58am

    Re: Open source educational books

    We should send these open text book links to ....

    Kawartha Pine Ridge District School Board
    The Peterborough Victoria Northumberland
    Clarington Catholic District School Board

    That will learn the Copyright Board of Canada ... GRIN ...

     

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  13.  
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    LoL, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 12:01pm

    Copyright laws have little to no chance of changing.

    What is needed and badly is to people to do something about it.

    If they won't change the laws and in fact are trying to make them more obnoxious is up to us people to change how we do things, if they want to create little castle around themselves let them. Just use and promote open ideas and they will have to bulge at some point.

     

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  14.  
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    Michial Thompson, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 12:01pm

    So now it's not just musicians that need to take it up the ass

    So now mikee is not just saying that musicians should not be paid for their work, but writers too....

    WOW funny how his ramblings wouldn't exist if his advertisers pulled out... And funny thing is most of the advertisers also depend heavily of their patents to protect them...

    WOW

     

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    Free Capitalist (profile), Sep 29th, 2009 @ 12:04pm

    Re: Huh...

    What should we do? Let these uneducated consumers continue to consume stolen information? And let's not mince words, by consuming stolen information they are, in fact, complicit midget thieves. Use of these photocopying devices in the consumer education system can bring nothing but evil, and all of these dubious thingamawhoppers should disconnected from the power grid.

    Think of the uneducated midget consumers!

     

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  16.  
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    Headbhang (profile), Sep 29th, 2009 @ 12:04pm

    Re: Re: Huh...

    Poor publishers, they must have been starving before big mamma gov't came to rescue them with this.

    Wonder how much the real authors will get from this...

     

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  17.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 12:05pm

    Stupid system.

    Ah.... the teachers I had knew exactly how much they where allowed to photocopy and give out. The rule of you can only copy x% of a book with out permission thingy.

    So now schools will have to spend tax payers money to defend themselves from a potentially liable claim.

    I really really hate blanket lawsuits... if they do not at least some reasonable proof of the copyright infringement then they can not proceed. Failure to do so does not show due diligence on part of their legal teams so they should all be disbarred for going on a fishing expedition. Doing against tax based institutions should carry even larger penalties.

    Yes many some of those in the blanket lawsuit are in fact guilty and should pay... but the lawyers should ethically be required have just cause.

     

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  18.  
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    TheStupidOne, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 12:06pm

    Re: Drop 'em!

    "the costs of textbooks that are "Edition" changes with little change happens besides the art on the cover."

    I never had that happen to me in elementary/high school ... it was more like using 15 year old textbooks which talked about the cold war in the present tense. (around year 1998)

     

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  19.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 12:07pm

    Re:

    I thought there already was something like that. At least an understanding if not actual case law

     

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  20.  
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    Robert Ring (profile), Sep 29th, 2009 @ 12:08pm

    "Do Not Copy"

    I used to teach English at a small, non-profit high school. The books were recycled each year so the students didn't have to pay for their books. This meant that the workbook pages had to be photocopied before the students could use them. Quite humorously, on the bottom of each workbook page there was an box reading, impotently, "Do No Copy," but no legal warning whatsoever (probably because there couldn't be). It always got a good laugh out of me just because it was such a weak attempt to keep people from copying the pages.

     

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    Josh in CharlotteNC (profile), Sep 29th, 2009 @ 12:09pm

    Propaganda

    Does this make it more or less likely that schools receiving the huge bills will start using the propaganda materials distributed by copyright holders?

    I bet the schools couldn't make (free) copies of the materials, since they're covered under copyright, and I don't see them paying extra for them.

     

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  22.  
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    LoL, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 12:13pm

    @Michial Thompson:

    Banks too deserve to take up the arse.

    See the last viral video to hit YouTube.

    LoL

     

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  23.  
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    Thomas Gideon, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 12:13pm

    Mike,

    Read the linked article a bit more closely. In this instance, the schools have been negotiating with the copyright board for some time. A public trustee says she felt that the negotiated rate was better than what the schools would originally have had to pay. She also admitted that no one at the public school boards expected to not have to pay. The article mentions the public board itself generally paying out a sum of $90K, suggesting this tariff existed before the negotiations, though the article really doesn't say for certain or whether the scope of the tariff was expanded.

    Out of context, the sums seem enormous. In context, they may still be a burden to schools, but maybe not as outrageous, especially since the lump sums are the retroactive fees for the past few years while the new tariff rate was being hammered out.

    This is definitely a case where I wished that Prof. Geist had skipped his usual laconic posting style and giving us some more commentary to put this story into a better context so if there is an issue to act on, we do so over the correct one.

     

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  24.  
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    Trails, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 12:19pm

    Re: Re: Huh...

    Let's take it one step further!! Any school found to have photocopied more than 3 times, that is to say one work three times, three works one time each, or one work once and another twice, should be disconnected from the power grid, that they may learn their lesson.

    After all, educating photo-pirating teachers is more important than educating kids!!

     

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  25.  
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    RBSplat, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 12:20pm

    School Copyrights

    Their not getting enough money for the books that cost 4 to 5 times what a normal book costs, so now they need to get paid for a few copies. Of course they have no way of knowing how many copies get made of anything so they have to assume that every child attending gets 10 copies of everything.

    PAY UP you don't need know stinking education.

     

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  26.  
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    Trails, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 12:22pm

    Re: So now it's not just musicians that need to take it up the ass

    WOW somebody confuses patents and copyrights. WOW. Also, WOW.

    What writers and musicians? Mike discusses copyright collectives like RIAA and Access Copyright, both of whom represent publishers.

     

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  27.  
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    Trigeia Twins, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 12:24pm

    It is what it is

    Why in the world would schools be teaching with photocopied materials. Come on our kids should have a first class education. Are these schools teaching their kids how to pirate music as well?

     

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  28.  
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    Dark Helmet (profile), Sep 29th, 2009 @ 12:28pm

    Re: It is what it is

    "Why in the world would schools be teaching with photocopied materials. Come on our kids should have a first class education. Are these schools teaching their kids how to pirate music as well?"

    Your comment was stated with such trollitude that it went of the charts on trollchter scale in such a trolltastic trolly way that I troll troll troll.

    .....troll.

     

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  29.  
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    Mike Masnick (profile), Sep 29th, 2009 @ 12:28pm

    Re: So now it's not just musicians that need to take it up the ass

    Michial,

    I'm not sure why you continue to have so much trouble understanding this, despite the fact that many of us here on the site have spent a great deal of time patiently explaining this to you.

    So now mikee is not just saying that musicians should not be paid for their work, but writers too....

    I have never said that content creators should not get paid for their work. Why do you think we spend so much time posting about smart business models that help content creators get paid?

    WOW funny how his ramblings wouldn't exist if his advertisers pulled out..

    This site existed for 7 years before we had any advertisers at all.

    Advertising revenue on this site represents a tiny fraction of our revenue.

    But, separately, how much could you possibly miss the point by? Yes, we survive on revenue (mostly not from advertisers, but that's besides the point). But we get that revenue by providing a useful service that companies want to pay for -- not by having the gov't force people to pay us.

    You really do understand the difference, don't you?

     

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  30.  
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    sceptic (profile), Sep 29th, 2009 @ 12:39pm

    As much as it sucks there is an educational materials market. However, why this sort of tax on a school district would be allowed is beyond me. The article does state however that the fee was changed to lower the per student fee from an original proposed rate of 12$ per student to 4.64$. not the other way around as mike implies int he opening line. Probably the worst part about this is that it will likely give teachers and school districts an incentive to never buy new books. If they are now paying for the right to copy the books, they might as well always copy them and hand them out to students in need, as this will be far cheaper than getting updated texts even when the need is justified.

     

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  31.  
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    Lucretious, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 12:42pm

    Re: It is what it is

    Helmet is right, that has to be one of the more ham-fisted troll attempts I've seen yet on this site.

    Keep practicing young Jedi, you'll get there eventually.

     

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  32.  
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    Free Capitalist (profile), Sep 29th, 2009 @ 12:42pm

    Re: Re: Re: Huh...

    Any school found to have photocopied more than 3 times, that is to say one work three times, three works one time each, or one work once and another twice, should be disconnected from the power grid, that they may learn their lesson.


    I like, no, LOVE the way you think, and have forwarded this to my senator.

    In the future I totally recommend you avoid use of the word 'kids'. People get all weepy and idealistic talking about things so closely tied to organic nature.

    Can we re-educate our uneducated midget consumers? YES! WE! CAN!

     

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  33.  
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    Ouside The Box, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 12:49pm

    Out of date technology

    I think there is a major oversight going on here. First, the publishers should force the copy machine producers to place DRM or even ARM (Analog Rights Management) controls on their devices. In so doing, the schools can purchase just the licenses necessary to utilize the precise amount of materials.

    Furthermore if the copy machine producers failed to do so, they should be fined for each unauthorized copy made with their machine. Let's not put blame where it does not belong.

     

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    Free Capitalist (profile), Sep 29th, 2009 @ 12:52pm

    Re: Out of date technology

    Everything Outside the Box Said


    YYYYYYYYESSS! Finally someone gets it!

     

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    reboog711 (profile), Sep 29th, 2009 @ 12:53pm

    Is there something like this in the US? Is that why my wife, an elementary school teacher, needs to buy her own chalk, pencils, notepads, books, and other equipment?

     

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  36.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 12:55pm

    Re: Re: So now it's not just musicians that need to take it up the ass

    RIAA does not represent publishing companies. So dumb.

     

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  37.  
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    JH, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 12:58pm

    Coming soon...copy machine taxes

    Since Canadian copyright groups have already imposed a blank cd tax, and want an iPod tax I can only imagine someone will come up with the clever idea of a copy machine tax next. I mean, what else are copy machines used for but to make illegal copies?

     

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  38.  
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    TW Burger (profile), Sep 29th, 2009 @ 1:02pm

    Re: It is what it is

    You sound like one of those Fox News assh@les that try to convince their audience of morons that Obama is using public schools for recruiting children into the NAZI party. Why don't you just accuse teachers of instructing identity theft methodology?

     

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  39.  
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    Griff, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 1:05pm

    Wot no paperless business model ?

    I'm surprised noone has mentioned that in this day and age there should be some way the schools should be able to rent access to the material (rate based on school size) and print it off as required. Or let their students access the material via the intranet on netbooks. Will nobody think of the children trees ?

     

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  40.  
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    Michial Thompson, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 1:16pm

    My point is

    My point here is simple. Why do schools have the right to copy any copyright material at all???? The material should be purchased PERIOD. So for the government to step in and remotely even have a say in forcing the copyright holder to allow the copy is just as wrong.

    If a school chooses to use a piece of education material that requires the student to write in it, then the parents should purchase that material as part of that kids school supplies. That's just a part of the expense of having a kid in the first place.

    WHY should a copyright holder be forced to accept a discounted price for the use of material which they sold?

    You claim it's wrong to expect fans to pay for music and the musician should find ways to make money without charging for the music. Now you have a publisher that has establisvhd a value for the material being published and you expect that publisher to take less than that value just because its a school using it?

    What's the value of an education? Why shouldn't the education material be paid for?

    Hipocracy runs rampant on this site. You sit and slam copyrights and patents but prey upon vendors that make their living with it. You slam corporations for charging too much yet put no value into R&D. You claim musiciand don't get paid for the sale of their music but offer no value to the industry promoting their fame.

    Sad mikee, but exactly what would you do if someone decided to mirror this site and strip all your advertising off? Would you then file copyright infringement agains them? My guess is yes.

     

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  41.  
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    Michial Thompson, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 1:16pm

    My point is

    My point here is simple. Why do schools have the right to copy any copyright material at all???? The material should be purchased PERIOD. So for the government to step in and remotely even have a say in forcing the copyright holder to allow the copy is just as wrong.

    If a school chooses to use a piece of education material that requires the student to write in it, then the parents should purchase that material as part of that kids school supplies. That's just a part of the expense of having a kid in the first place.

    WHY should a copyright holder be forced to accept a discounted price for the use of material which they sold?

    You claim it's wrong to expect fans to pay for music and the musician should find ways to make money without charging for the music. Now you have a publisher that has establisvhd a value for the material being published and you expect that publisher to take less than that value just because its a school using it?

    What's the value of an education? Why shouldn't the education material be paid for?

    Hipocracy runs rampant on this site. You sit and slam copyrights and patents but prey upon vendors that make their living with it. You slam corporations for charging too much yet put no value into R&D. You claim musiciand don't get paid for the sale of their music but offer no value to the industry promoting their fame.

    Sad mikee, but exactly what would you do if someone decided to mirror this site and strip all your advertising off? Would you then file copyright infringement agains them? My guess is yes.

     

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  42.  
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    TW Burger (profile), Sep 29th, 2009 @ 1:18pm

    Re: Coming soon...copy machine taxes

    sarcasm starts > They should tax ink and paper too. Books could be copied in long hand like I did in college and high school. Pens should have a $0.50 copyright tax and paper $0.05 per sheet to cover the poor publishers imaginary losses. And don't forget the pages could be memorized. Each person should pay a yearly tithe to the publishers for the right to remember the book's contents and utilize the information. Also, all money earned from work done using that information will require a 10% royalty to the publishers. > end sarcasm.

    These publishers are the same conniving creeps that change a couple of chapters (in very minor ways) and demand schools pay full price for the 'new' edition.

     

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    Josh in CharlotteNC (profile), Sep 29th, 2009 @ 1:21pm

    Re: Out of date technology

    Too late.

    Some copy machines already have such technology in them, to a limited extent.

    I used to work for Canon, doing tech support for various products, including copiers. Many of them had anti-counterfeiting tech built in to prevent duplication of money and security paper (stocks, bonds and such). Depending on the particular machine, some would just mangle the output to be illegible, up to locking the machine up until it was serviced by a technician that could remove the lock.

    Not just the million dollar machines had this. The tech had worked its way down some sub-$1000 copiers a few years ago.

     

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  44.  
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    James, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 1:26pm

    How long before they start billing you for talking about something in a book?

    The way things are going they are going to start imposing fees if you talk about something you read in a book. Imagine living in that society...

     

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  45.  
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    Jeff, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 1:51pm

    Re: My point is

    FAIL

    Do not pass GO, proceed to JAIL.


    Perhaps you might slow down, take a deep breath and try and understand the issues presented both in relation to this topic and the myriad of others on this site. NOBODY is advocating content creators/providers not be paid. What we are advocating is the abuse and absurdities perpetuated upon us by "Content Providers" who continue to demand to be paid over and over and over and over and over and over for the same material.

    Given your inability to even articulate a coherent thought on this site, you might benefit from a better educational experience - perhaps with open source textbooks???

     

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  46.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 1:55pm

    Is hipocracy a government run by hippopotamuses? If so, I think it sounds better than one run by lobbyists.

     

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  47.  
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    Jeff, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 2:11pm

    Re: Re: My point is

    dammit - that should be

    "What we are advocating against is..."

    FAIL Me

     

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  48.  
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    Luci, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 2:13pm

    Re:

    I'm pretty sure this is fair use. It's only a tiny part of the entire work and it is not for commercial purposes (no one's makin' any money).

    Besides, I thought there was an exemption for education. Maybe that's just US or something.

     

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  49.  
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    Luci, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 2:27pm

    Re: Re: Re: So now it's not just musicians that need to take it up the ass

    RIAA does represent publishing companies. Sony Music? BMG? Etcetera. Recording companies do what? That's right, they PUBLISH music.

     

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    Alan Gerow (profile), Sep 29th, 2009 @ 2:29pm

    Re: Re: Huh...

    Photocopiers aren't new. Teachers have been photocopying educational materials for DECADES. Why is it now a problem? Oh, that's right, it's just a money grab ... there is nobody actually in threat of going out of business because of teachers photocopying magazine articles and a couple pages from different textbooks to round out their course material.

    There are no new damages, there are no damages at all. It's a problem that is only a problem because someone finally saw some dollar signs and wants as much of it as they can get. They see the music industry making grabs at everybody, and now its time for book publishers to try to get some for themselves.

     

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  51.  
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    PrometheeFeu (profile), Sep 29th, 2009 @ 2:41pm

    Re: My point is

    "So for the government to step in and remotely even have a say in forcing the copyright holder to allow the copy is just as wrong."

    Actually, the government is doing no such thing. Copyright is not a natural right such as property of physical objects. In this case, the government is stepping in to restrict the use of our ideas and property in order to grant a monopoly to some people. Right now, the government is preventing me from in the privacy of my own house playing music over my speakers unless I went and paid some amount of money to some person.

    "What's the value of an education? Why shouldn't the education material be paid for?"

    The point is not that education materials should not be paid for. The point is that if I purchased a book and a photocopying machine, what gives the government the right to come into my house and prevent me from using MY property? If I purchased a CD, what gives the government the right to come into MY house and tell me how I am allowed to use MY CD and MY computer?

    What you need to understand is that copyright is an intrusive form of government intervention in our private and economic lives. Limiting its influence is not a new form of government intervention. It is allowing nature to take its course without giving publishers and musicians a handout. Copyright is the ultimate form of protect

     

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  52.  
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    PrometheeFeu (profile), Sep 29th, 2009 @ 2:43pm

    Re:

    No... It is a government run by dead guys who invented medicine.

     

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    Dark Helmet (profile), Sep 29th, 2009 @ 2:44pm

    Re: My point is

    Okay, are we making this more difficult than it needs to be?

    "My point here is simple. Why do schools have the right to copy any copyright material at all???? The material should be purchased PERIOD."

    Well, namely because they're allowed to under the provision of fair use. From the page linked below, which is from a Yale University site (hey, I hear they're super duper smart and stuff), "This "fair use" exception to copyright has been defined as use of the copyrighted work "for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research...". That seems pretty clear cut to me: if you're using copyrighted material for the purpose of education in the classroom, make as many photocopies as you like.

    http://www.cls.yale.edu/page.asp?file=2/170

    "WHY should a copyright holder be forced to accept a discounted price for the use of material which they sold?"

    Well, that's a fair question, though I think it's answered by Fair Use in the betterment of society as a whole, but let's turn your question around: Why should parents be subjected to school board mandated curriculum that forces them to purchase copyright material when we have compulsory education laws mixed with public schooling? This smacks of the RIAA insistance that radio stations MUST pay them to play music, oh and they MUST play that music, too.

    "What's the value of an education? Why shouldn't the education material be paid for?"

    Well, in the matter of public education, the answer to the first question is "invaluable, but priced at FREE!", and the answer to the second question is somewhat more detailed, but I think that "because the founding fathers said so" shall suffice for now. If you don't understand why public education should be FREE! and how that should affect the price of educational material, well then I don't know boss, you're a tad nutty.

    "Hipocracy runs rampant on this site."

    Word, sister!

    "You sit and slam copyrights and patents but prey upon vendors that make their living with it."

    Oh, you meant us. Well, that doesn't seem like hippocracy to me, that seems like two sides of the same coin, though as someone who despises hippocracy I'd be willing to listen to an explanation of what you meant.

     

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  54.  
    identicon
    Silver, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 2:55pm

    It was honestly, only a matter of time before this happened.

    I wonder how long it'll be before someone comes up with the argument "But the human brain is basically a copying machine, so therefore, letting students read our material is essentially allowing them to make a copy illegally."

     

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  55.  
    identicon
    batch, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 3:02pm

    call me crazy

    but I don't think copyright holders should get paid when it gets in the way of education, which it clearly will when their budget is entirely swallowed by copyright tax, which is apparently happend to the Quebec schools. There are more important things, like having educated students become adults who can pay for things like copyrighted crap. Or I guess we could just go back to letting the privileged few with ultra wealthy parents get an education and everyone else can just be lackeys. That will work out well.

    God-emperor Leto II forbid we come up with a sane way of paying the people who make school books a fair price without the possibility of restrictions or other nonsense like a photocopy tax. Logic? Rationale? Other things that make sense to a non-douche-bag? NOOOOO!!!!

     

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  56.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 3:07pm

    How bad can it get?

    Imagine this, a student in Canada goes into the library listening to a song on her iPod that she got on a Mix CD from her friend who downloaded it off of Lily Allen's web site. She is wearing generic shoes that she put on a Nike swish with a pen during a boring class. In her Taiwanese Hello Kitty backpack, she has a laptop that her brother put Office on for her. For her report on governments in small countries in the southern hemisphere she checks out Helen, Portrait of a Prime Minister by Brian Edwards and photocopies a couple of pages to mark up. Then goes to a friend's house and watches a movie that they rented.

    There must be more that this criminal is doing!

     

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  57.  
    identicon
    Luci, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 3:09pm

    Re: My point is

    My own point is just as simple: Why should the only people who get to educate their children be the people with money? You say the PARENTS should pay for all of this, and yet isn't that what taxes are for?

    Please, pull your head out from under the rocks and start thinking.

    As to your question: 'Sad mikee, but exactly what would you do if someone decided to mirror this site and strip all your advertising off? Would you then file copyright infringement agains them? My guess is yes.'

    Mike has stated numerous times that people can copy his material. Why would he do that? Because people will still know where it came from. That can't be hidden, even if the one doing the copying doesn't cite sources, or *gasp!* claims they wrote it, themselves. Please, if you're going to troll, be good at it? Because you aren't.

     

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  58.  
    identicon
    Valkor, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 3:23pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Huh...

    I think he is. The gratuitous "eh?" is the giveaway.

     

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  59.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 3:37pm

    Re: So now it's not just musicians that need to take it up the ass

    angrydude, is that you?

     

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  60.  
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    Mike Masnick (profile), Sep 29th, 2009 @ 4:32pm

    Re: My point is

    My point here is simple

    By which you appear to mean both wrong and uninformed. Which is odd, because you've been commenting on this site for a while now, and these points have been raised to you in the past.

    Why do schools have the right to copy any copyright material at all????

    Because they purchased the originals and they purchased a photocopier, and thus they have the right to make a copy.

    So for the government to step in and remotely even have a say in forcing the copyright holder to allow the copy is just as wrong.

    Um. But that's not what's happening.

    If a school chooses to use a piece of education material that requires the student to write in it, then the parents should purchase that material as part of that kids school supplies. That's just a part of the expense of having a kid in the first place.

    So, you honestly think that we should make educating our children more expensive for no reason other than that you can't think of a smart business model for content creators?

    WHY should a copyright holder be forced to accept a discounted price for the use of material which they sold?

    No one is saying that. Honestly, could you try reading before spewing?

    You claim it's wrong to expect fans to pay for music and the musician should find ways to make money without charging for the music. Now you have a publisher that has establisvhd a value for the material being published and you expect that publisher to take less than that value just because its a school using it?

    No. All we're saying is that they should focus on business models that work. Not "take less than that value," but put in place a business model that is more effective.

    No one has a right to get paid. You only have a right to try to put forth a business model that works.

    What's the value of an education? Why shouldn't the education material be paid for?

    Let's try this one more time: they get paid if they put in place a smart business model.

    Why is that so difficult to comprehend.

    Hipocracy runs rampant on this site. You sit and slam copyrights and patents but prey upon vendors that make their living with it.

    Huh? Excuse me? How do I "prey" on anyone?

    You slam corporations for charging too much yet put no value into R&D.

    Huh? I put tremendous value in R&D. What makes you think I don't?!?

    You claim musiciand don't get paid for the sale of their music but offer no value to the industry promoting their fame.

    Huh? We've discussed numerous business models that show musicians doing much *better* by giving away their music for free and embracing other business models.

    Sad mikee, but exactly what would you do if someone decided to mirror this site and strip all your advertising off? Would you then file copyright infringement agains them? My guess is yes.

    You are a confused person. Which part of *we don't make our money from advertising* did you not understand?

    Even better, try READING for once: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090116/0348223430.shtml

    There are plenty of sites that copy us and strip out the advertising, and that's great. If you want to, go ahead and do it. Read that post where we explain why it's dumb, but go ahead. It only helps us, because we put in place a business model that makes us *better off* when you do that.

    That's all we're suggesting here: that content creators learn to put in place those types of business models.

     

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  61.  
    identicon
    Rabbit80, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 4:34pm

    Think of the photocopier salesmen...

    they have the right to earn a living as well...

    Just as little Tommy has a right to learn - despite the fact he forgot his textbook or his parents can't afford it - or even that his class is overcrowded and the school hasn't got enough to go around!

    In my mind, educational books that are used and required for teaching the curriculum should be paid for with a set fee per year - plus printing costs... not profit per book!

     

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  62.  
    identicon
    AnonY1, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 5:43pm

    !

    @Rabbit80: Dude, that reads like a thought. I don't want to alarm you, but I'm pretty sure the RIAA copyrighted that awhile ago. CEASE AND DESISTA! Nice idea....

     

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  63.  
    identicon
    ..., Sep 29th, 2009 @ 6:24pm

    What if no one at the school copies anything?

    "t all goes back five years, when Access Copyright proposed a $12 tariff per fulltime equivalent student to cover school board photocopying of copyrighted material, as a result of a study which showed the majority of items copied are textbook pages."

    What if no one at the school copies anything?
    What if the school does not possess a copy machine?
    Is there a provision in this Access Copyright proposal which addresses the possibility that a school might not have access to a copy machine and therefore not be subject to their demands?

    No - I didn't think so. And therefore they are not being honest about their motives. Big suprise there huh. Same thing has been said about the draconian blank CD tax.

    s As we all are well aware, the only use for a blank CD is to copy music. No one would ever use them to store their own data. In a similar fashion, the only use for a copy machine in a school is to make copies of books, mags, etc. It would never be used for making copies of a report card, or attendance records. /s

     

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  64.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 6:54pm

    Re:

    The government/public schools should be subject to sovereign immunity. This should not apply to them.

     

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  65.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 6:57pm

    Re: Re: So now it's not just musicians that need to take it up the ass

    Remember, angrydude claims that his English is broke becaus it's not his primary language but when I ask him what his primary language is so that he can substantiate the alleged fact that he speaks another language to someone else who speaks i, he doesn't say respond.

     

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  66.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 6:58pm

    Re: Re: Re: So now it's not just musicians that need to take it up the ass

    Remember, angrydude claims that his English is broken because it's not his primary language but when I ask him what his primary language is so that he can substantiate the alleged fact that he speaks another language to someone else who speaks it, he doesn't respond.

     

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  67.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 7:07pm

    Re: Re: Coming soon...copy machine taxes

    "sarcasm starts"

    What about a sarcasm tax since sarcasm is a concept I have a patent on?

     

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  68.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 7:11pm

    Re: My point is

    "Sad mikee, but exactly what would you do if someone decided to mirror this site and strip all your advertising off? Would you then file copyright infringement agains them? My guess is yes."

    Uhm... People have asked Mike this before and he has answered that he doesn't care. You must be new here.

    "WHY should a copyright holder be forced to accept a discounted price for the use of material which they sold?"

    First of all, the government nor society owes anyone a monopoly on anything. If society is to grant a monopoly on things it should ONLY be granted to the extent that it helps out society. Current intellectual property laws harm society far more than it helps society. The publisher only get a copyright because society grants it, not because society OWES it. If someone doesn't like it s/he can stop making stuff, but others will be glad to create works.

     

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  69.  
    identicon
    Irate Pirate, Sep 29th, 2009 @ 9:48pm

    Re: Huh...

    "If the owners of the copyright don't get paid for their work then they won't keep making quality educational material."

    It is the artists who actually create the content. Most often the owners of copyright are the ones actually distributing copies of a contracted artists work, making themselves middle men basically. The internet has made the very lucrative position of middle man obsolete and this is why the various industries are so afraid, lashing out at everyone in a feeble effort to hold onto a legacy that was never destined to last forever.

    True or false: if the recording industry were to cease making their eye popping profits year after year, music would cease to exist, correct?

    True or false: if the movie industry were to cease making their eye popping profits year after year, movies would cease to exist, correct?

    True or false: if the print industry were to cease making their profits year after year, the written word would cease to exist, correct?

    True or false: if the software industry were to cease making their profits year after year, programs and video games would cease to exist, correct?

    Based on your logic the answer would be true to all of those questions, but anyone with half a brain and an iota of common sense will tell you that the answer is false, not just on a intellectual level but an instinctual one as well.

    The days of getting rich and powerful by simply acting as gate keepers to the process of duplication may coming to an end but that doesn't mean culture will suddenly end as some believe. If anything, culture will more than likely thrive once unshackled and shine more brightly that it has in ages.

    Personally I'm looking forward to a world where formulaic carbon copy entertainment no longer exists and everyone actually has to have real talent again, where the only way to get noticed is by offering something truly unique just like how it used to be prior to the 20th century. It's all about separating the wheat from the chaff. Nobody deserves to be rich simply because they feel entitled. Those with talent and true passion for their craft will be successful and those that don't will have to be part of the rat race just like the rest of us, the natural way it's meant to be.

     

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  70.  
    identicon
    Michial Thompson, Sep 30th, 2009 @ 5:33am

    Re: Re: Re: So now it's not just musicians that need to take it up the ass

    I'll answer it... My FIRST language was Russian, I have spoken english since age 5, and have not spoken Russian since. At best my Russian is at less than a 2 yr olds level, if not even worse.

    My English Grammar is affected by this, but nothing more. I do not speak with an accent, nor am I even able to carry on a simple conversation in Russian. I would be lucky to be able to ask for directions at bes.

     

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  71.  
    identicon
    mertz, Sep 30th, 2009 @ 11:01am

    Re: It is what it is

    wow. i don't know if you are being sarcastic or not, but some schools, although they have textbooks that they do purchase new and some they do recycle cannot afford to buy books every year so they make do with photocopying, and i guess it is up to them to pay for what they are doing. not all the schools who go to school can afford to purchase the course materials...texbooks being one of them, so that must mean that kids should not be going to school...not all kids but definately the poor one's who can't afford a textbook.

     

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  72.  
    identicon
    Michial Thompson, Sep 30th, 2009 @ 11:12am

    Mertz

    Mertz;

    The most likely reason for the high cost of the books in the first place is the fact that they are copied and reused time and time again so the publishers are compensating with higher per unit costs with this knowledge in hand.

    Using the excuse that the parents cannot afford the books is pretty lame when the same parents have a 3 pack a day habit of cigarettes, or a case of beer a day habit etc....

    The education is free, the least the parent can do is put down the beer a couple days a week and spend the money on the materials their kids use.

     

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  73.  
    icon
    Chuck Norris' Enemy (deceased) (profile), Sep 30th, 2009 @ 11:13am

    Re: Re: Drop 'em!

    Of course, you borrowed the books for your classes then and you personally never had to buy the replacement. You would just return your book at the end of the year/semester. Now the school on the other hand would have to update their texts.

     

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  74.  
    identicon
    mertz, Sep 30th, 2009 @ 11:14am

    i heard this morning and it was depressing because apparently the school districts haven't budgeted for this cost, even though they knew something like this would come down on them one time, but i don't think they expected it to still be this much, especially after putting in so much effort to reduce the bill. i don't know how i would have ever gone through without teachers making photocopies when i was in school. yes some schools purchase books for students, but some schools also make the kids purchase all materials. there are different circumstances that need to be looked at here. sometimes classes are over the limit and you get a student who doesn't have the materials and has no means of purchasing the materials for courses. sometimes you have teachers who teach only through photocopying and others who teach from the books. i wanted to know if this was all about the textbooks used in class or the other materials (storybooks) that are required for some courses. i think the schools take on as much costs as they can and leave the rest up to the student to provide their own materials, but what are they supposed to do for the other kids who have no means of getting these materials? so i understand that the authors need to be compensated for their works and apparently education is not charity nor are schools a means of welfare, but would people really like the alternative of kids who can't afford materials not being in school/school setting. yeah sometimes kids have to share materials, but that's not enough for some people. the teachers and the administrators are the one's who have to deal with this and have been trying to get around this by changing the cirriculum and school days as much as possible. i heard that in other provinces though the cost is upgraded to the provinces or the ministry of education, but it's not that way in ontario...proabably because of the population and the many school districts. this whole thing is just unfortunate and sad. it's nice to see bankrupt schools have to shell out more that they don't have. i hope they are successful in getting the government body/agency to deal with this instead of in different districts.

     

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  75.  
    icon
    Dark Helmet (profile), Sep 30th, 2009 @ 11:54am

    Re: Mertz

    Okay, fuckhead, now you're pissing me off:

    "The most likely reason for the high cost of the books in the first place is the fact that they are copied and reused time and time again so the publishers are compensating with higher per unit costs with this knowledge in hand."

    I would enjoy seeing one shred of evidence that backs that claim up. What makes that reason "the most likely"? Honestly, do you have any idea how much money the majority of textbook publishers are making? In the below article for instance, the culprit identified is the USED BOOKS Market, not photocopying at all, that is responsible for the high cost of textbooks. And if you want to outlaw the used books market, well best of luck to you.

    "Using the excuse that the parents cannot afford the books is pretty lame when the same parents have a 3 pack a day habit of cigarettes, or a case of beer a day habit etc...."

    You're really going to try to equate every parent that can't afford what we've already agreed are relatively high textbook prices with those addicted to nicotine and alcohol? Are you truly that dumb and arrogant?

    It's probably worth mentioning that since many of the textbook publishers were bought up by megacorps throughout the world, many textbooks are supplied by companies that are ALSO supplying cigarettes, like Riga Holdings for instance.

    "The education is free, the least the parent can do is put down the beer a couple days a week and spend the money on the materials their kids use."

    Two points that should be addressed. First, if the education that is free REQUIRES a book that is not, then guess what? That education is no longer free.

    Secondly, your continuing insistence that anyone who can't afford these high cost textbooks is smoking 3 packs a day or drinking a case of beer a day is IDIOTIC, ELITIST, and ARROGANT on a level that rivals some Hollywood types that think because people know them, and that they have money, that they have any business telling me about religion or world events.

    I was trying to be level before, but you're an arrogant ass Michial.

    Cheers. Here's to hoping any wealt you have immediately disappears and you can't eat (well, you would be able to, but you must have a 3 pack and case of beer a day habit).

    Idiot.

     

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  76.  
    icon
    Dark Helmet (profile), Sep 30th, 2009 @ 11:56am

    Re: Re: Mertz

     

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  77.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 1st, 2009 @ 12:49pm

    "The most likely reason for the high cost of the books in the first place is the fact that they are copied and reused time and time again so the publishers are compensating with higher per unit costs with this knowledge in hand."

    Ok so they want to charge more for the book as it is being copied and then they want to charge for copies as well.

     

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  78.  
    identicon
    mertz, Oct 1st, 2009 @ 5:22pm

    Re: Mertz

    i can't claim to not know the reality of how adults act in the world, but my parents don't spend money on smokes and starbucks or shit like that because we spend money very wisely. i never asked my teachers to photocopy material for me but i know that my teachers have done that, along with the administrators at school because they don't have enough material, the school doesn't have money, the students don't have money and that the teacher actually has to make it through the day teaching. otherwise we'll have lots of kids in class either sharing books or not taking photocpied materials home, either throwing it out or doing work, just because their personal situation isn't right. i don't think those kids should be left behind just because of their personal situation or just because school is supposedly free. i went to a public school, a special streamed school, and to a private school. at each time i had to pay not only for my own course materials but also pool funds with other students, teachers, and staff to buy materials when the schools funds were cut. i've been in many cituations where anyone from the secretary to the librarian to the teachers to the admins photocopied. i'm glad you think it's a lame excuse.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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