Fewer Foreigners Coming To US Grad Schools: This Is A Problem

from the not-good-for-anyone dept

I still cannot understand the antagonism that many seem to feel towards skill foreigners getting jobs in the US. The job market is not a zero-sum game, and there are two important things to understand when it comes to these foreigners:
  1. Studies have shown, repeatedly, that bringing in such skilled foreigners helps create new jobs by expanding the economy. In fact, 25% of all tech startups these days are done by foreign-born workers, and in Silicon Valley that number is over 50%.
  2. The even bigger point: it's not as if these skilled workers suddenly disappear if they're not in the US. Instead, they remain in their home countries (or other countries) where they're still just as skilled and now more likely to be competing with US companies, who were hindered in hiring the best employees. Getting beat in the market by a foreign competitor isn't good for US jobs. It's terrible for US jobs.
And yet, thanks to the economy and our own immigration policies, guess what's happening? Not only is it incredibly difficult for skilled foreign workers to get jobs, many foreigners aren't even trying to go to US grad schools any more, knowing how difficult it is to get visas and jobs in the US. As many are noticing, this is undeniably bad for Silicon Valley and bad for innovation. Can someone please explain why it's somehow better to let those people compete with US companies, rather than work with US companies to grow them?


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  1.  
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    Ima Fish (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 6:11am

    No one should have a problem with a foreigner coming here, obtaining an education, and staying here to earn a living. Andy Grove comes to mind.

    What bothers most of us are the foreigners who come here temporarily and are forced to leave and take their knowledge and skills with them to set up competition somewhere else. That makes no fricken sense at all.

     

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    yozoo, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 6:13am

    They wont necessarily be competing - just working for less

    "Can someone please explain why it's somehow better to let those people compete with US companies, rather than work with US companies to grow them?"

    They can still work for American Companies. I work for one of the largest corporations in the world and nearly all of our technology work is done outside the u.s where labor is cheap. So they can still work for us, no problem there Mike.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 6:17am

    If nothing else, this will leave more school space open for American students, who can get an education, start up new businesses, and hire other Americans.

    "25% of all tech startups these days are done by foreign-born workers,"

    What percentage of students are foreign students? I am guessing the number was close to 25%, right? ;)

     

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    Ima Fish (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 6:18am

    Re: They wont necessarily be competing - just working for less

    "So they can still work for us, no problem there Mike."

    Wouldn't it be better to have them work here, buying stuff in our stores and paying our taxes.

     

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    Ima Fish (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 6:22am

    Re:

    "If nothing else, this will leave more school space open for American students, who can get an education, start up new businesses, and hire other Americans."

    Americans are adverse to hard majors such as engineering and science. And by that I mean our schools do a very poor job preparing Americans to do well in such courses.

    Unless you honestly think Americans with communication and art history majors will suddenly start the next big tech company.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 6:34am

    Re: Re:

    Mike's major is "business", and he writes a tech blog. That should be enough proof.

     

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    Mechwarrior, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 6:36am

    Re:

    Yeah, more school space for students who dont exist.

     

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    Chronno S. Trigger (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 6:37am

    Re: Re:

    "Americans are adverse to hard majors such as engineering and science."

    That's because of that stupid belief that college is for drinking. If you want to go drinking for four years, you don't pick a major that involves actual thought (no offense to those who actually did put thought into that major).

    "Unless you honestly think Americans with communication and art history majors will suddenly start the next big tech company."

    The last graduation I was at, half of the graduating class (around 500 people) were in art history (bachelors). Watching them walking down, you could tell that most of them were drinkers and some of them were still drunk.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 6:41am

    "Americans are adverse to hard majors such as engineering and science. And by that I mean our schools do a very poor job preparing Americans to do well in such courses."

    Then why would foreigners come here anyway if the schools do such a poor job. Does this mean that only foreign students are being taught well?

     

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    Kazi, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 6:41am

    Re: Re:

    They (Americans) will just complain to Uncle Sam that their business models are not working (RIAA/AP/something else). They will proceed to sue one another with their Ivy League Educations left and right while other companies outside develop themselves (Many Chinese companies that don't have a "brand" name for example - I think one is Hueng (sp?); a RF chipset/phone manufacturer).

    Oh yea, a larger percentage of Foreigners probably know English as a second language than English natives who know a foreign language.

     

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    Kazi, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 6:44am

    Re:

    Having a US college on your resume is gold for any foreigner - English is the most important aspect of it.

    Coming back to your native country you have many job oportunities. You can also drop your loans / grants in the USA and have some large US student loan company pick up the tab. Seen it done.

     

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    chris (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 6:53am

    Re: Re:

    Americans are adverse to hard majors such as engineering and science. And by that I mean our schools do a very poor job preparing Americans to do well in such courses.

    and by that i mean white people suck at math.

    i am by no means a strong math type, but there is a palpable anxiety over math among a lot of americans. when you start talking about math to anyone without a background in science or education you are likely to get a strong negative reaction.

     

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    Chronno S. Trigger (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 6:57am

    Re: Re: Re:

    "Oh yea, a larger percentage of Foreigners probably know English as a second language than English natives who know a foreign language."

    Since English was (and to an extent still is) the language to speak if you wanted to get into anything business, then yes, I can see that most of the world knows English as ether a primary or secondary language.

    It's just a location thing. You learn French if you go to France, you learn Spanish if you're going to south US, and you learn English if you're getting into international business.

    (It's funny that my spell check doesn't like a lower case in "English" but it's fine wit a lower case in "French". And not funny in the ha, ha way.)

     

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    JackSombra (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:00am

    Really depends on the "skilled foreigners" and who is bringing them in and even more importantly why

    Take the UK with the ICT (Intra Company Transfers) "visas", initially these were put in place so companies could move their high level skilled staff around the world, say skilled project manager from India who has been with company X for 10 years, so not only skilled in his chosen profession but also very familiar with the inner workings of the company.

    That's how things were meant to work, the reality though has been very different, basically companies setting up subsidiaries in places like India, hiring staff though those subsidiaries and bringing them straight over to the UK, where the staff in the UK have to train them in their job's so they can replace the UK staff.

    And why are companies doing this? Because they are vastly cheaper (not only because of lower salaries but also by combining it with fiddles so those staff don't have to pay UK tax's).

    Last year alone, nearly 30,000 IT workers were imported via these methods, during a period with the highest unemployment seen in IT for nearly a decade, and most of them were not filling new roles, but rather directly replacing UK/European staff. Big abusers of this have been the like's of BT and the financial sector

    Ability to bring in skilled staff is good and needed, but if you create a system that is to open or that can be abused you can bet your last dollar it will be abused by companies, to the extream detriment of your local skilled workforce and a local workforce that is not working is not good for the economy, no matter how many start up's the foreigners might create

     

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    mobiGeek (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:00am

    Re: Re:

    Now let's be clear, it isn't just the schools. There is an entire cultural shift that would need to occur. Parents are at least as equal to blame for the lack of preparation (and allowing/forcing schools to slip in their duties).

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:01am

    Re: Re:

    That's discouraging.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:03am

    Re: Re: Re:

    It is pretty sad, there are people fresh out of high school at my job coming in as interns that cannot do math with a calculator! They can't solve SIMPLE word problems. IE "A person is 72 inches tall and there are 12 inches in a foot how many feet tall is this person." I am not joking, that is extremely close to what I was telling this person and they did not grasp as to what to do.

    Sadly it's not cause Americans are naturally stupid, we feel we don't have to do anything cause life is great. People coming from other countries are trying hard to make the most of it and they get rewarded for it. I am sure there are plenty in their home countries that are comfortable and slack off and don't know math cause they are to busy drinking themselves into a coma.

     

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    Jake, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:05am

    "I still cannot understand the antagonism that many seem to feel towards skill foreigners getting jobs in the US."

    Want my guess? It's because they're foreign, and therefore automatically inferior to a pure-blooded American in the eyes of far, far too many registered voters.

     

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    mobiGeek (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:06am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Oh please, the majority of people do not attend college because they want their own personal Animal House experience.

    I believe the majority of people who end up in generalized majors do so because they arrive at college without having had any exposure to the real world and the details of the various fields available to them.

    At 17 and 18, I had one idea of what I wanted to do. By the time I graduated 5 years later, I was on a very different career path. By the time I was 30, I realize that I should shift again.

    Now I'm trying to figure out what I want to be when I finally do grow up. Another 10 years or so should do it.

     

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    El Guapo, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:08am

    Displacement

    As an American IT worker that had to find work out of the country due inability to compete with indentured H1B servants I can't help but grin as the 'cheap' labor leaves for home leaving the U.S. with nothing in its intellectual 'bank'. Foreign labor sacrifices long-term intellectual capital for short-term profitability. And if you think those of us who left will come back to get screwed again, go stuff it. Heck, I now live in a country where 80% of the people believe in Evolution compared to 40% in the States. So long, knuckleheads.

     

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    WammerJammer (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:10am

    Fewer Foreigners Coming To US Grad Schools: This Is A Problem

    Obviously you have never worked at one of the $80,000 a year tech jobs that were taken and given to a foreigner for $50,000 thus putting an American and his family out of work. What was wrong with the American guy? He was probably better educated and most likely spoke English, to me that's a win-win. Instead now we get buggy software with virus's and other malware, that require constant updates. You get what you pay for.
    What does a guy from India care about an American company? He just wants to steal our ideas and go back home and be a success there. He gets noticed in his home country. Here he is just another foreigner who has a lot of people living in his house.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:11am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    You might want to brush up on your mandarin, seriously.

     

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    Dark Helmet (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:13am

    Taking a broader view of the question:

    "I still cannot understand the antagonism that many seem to feel towards skill foreigners getting jobs in the US."

    Well, if you take a really huge step back and understand how the global economy works, who is financing it, and who is profiting off of it, it actual makes a TON of sense. Here's why-

    "1.Studies have shown, repeatedly, that bringing in such skilled foreigners helps create new jobs by expanding the economy. In fact, 25% of all tech startups these days are done by foreign-born workers, and in Silicon Valley that number is over 50%."

    Absolutely true, but that isn't where we're being taken. Our economy is being shrunk down in a purposeful, managed way. America's time as a lone super power is coming to a close, and as a result it isn't getting the preferential treatment from the international bankers like it used to. Some of those bankers might still live here, but they money is pooring into other countries and economies, namely China and India, and perhaps a South American country or two (most likely Argentina, for reasons that ought to be obvious to anyone studying WWII history).

    "2.The even bigger point: it's not as if these skilled workers suddenly disappear if they're not in the US. Instead, they remain in their home countries (or other countries) where they're still just as skilled and now more likely to be competing with US companies, who were hindered in hiring the best employees. Getting beat in the market by a foreign competitor isn't good for US jobs. It's terrible for US jobs."

    Ah, but that's the point, see? This is the winding down of our power and economy through diversification of interests, namely out of the American economy and into others. On a smaller scale, think of the correlation to the so called "Big Tobacco" firms. Everyone cheered when the American govt. slapped down big tobacco, forgetting that those lawsuits had been delayed, pushed back, and continued for nearly 30 years while all the tobacco firms diversified OUT of tobacco.

    -RJ Reynolds merged with Nabisco and makes food, including BOTH the Nabisco brands AND Kraft Food.
    -Philip Morris suddenly changed its name to Altria Corp. and now gets less than a quarter of its income from American Tobacco sales. It deals in Tobacco, wine, food, financial services, and hygiene products. A full 25%, probably more, of its net income comes from foodstuffs.
    -Fortune Tobacco out of the Philipines (but with significant business and holdings in the States), now owns Allied Bank, Tanduay Distillers, Asia Brewery, Century Park Hotel, Eton Properties, and Air Philipines.

    The point is that you delay delay delay, all while diversifying, and that is exactly what groups like the CFR and the Trilateral Commission, with their affiliate the Federal Reserve System, are accomplishing under our noses.

     

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    mobiGeek (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:13am

    Re: Re: Re:

    First, I take complete exception to the "white people suck at math". The majority of my B.Math class of 500 was "white".

    Second, you switch from a generalization of "whites" to a generalization of "americans", leading people to believe you view "americans" == "white".

    There is a palpable anxiety over anything hard when you have not trained yourself to be disciplined. The problem in many first-world countries is that discipline for the youth has slipped drastically, hard work is discouraged, and over-rewarding is now the expectation.

     

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    WammerJammer (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:14am

    Fewer Foreigners Coming To US Grad Schools: This Is A Problem

    Hey Displacement: Glad to see you go, El Guapo. We want our jobs back. Hope you do well in your own country. Your problem is believing that Americans believe in any of that bullshit. Evolve???? From what. That a funny argument. If you're stupid enough to believe you came from an ape. You welcome to your ancestors. Maybe you could move to Africa and help them.
    Just a suggestion.

     

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    mobiGeek (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:16am

    Re: Re:

    Yes, that's it. The majority of foreign students come to the US to build up huge debts and then abandon them.

    I think your thoughts on this subject show way more about you than it does your understanding of foreigners.

     

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    Chronno S. Trigger (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:16am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Exactly, with all the crap that's happening in the US, no one trusts us any more. Everyone is starting to switch to Mandarin Chinese. While we were fucking around with copyright and patent lawsuits, lying until our economy collapses, shoving our beliefs up other peoples asses, and living up to our stereotype of the fat lazy American, China was kicking our ass.

     

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    Richard, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:17am

    Re: The World economic structure

    The market really works best if all particiapants have similar costs and bargaining powers.

    Artificial monopolies create distortions - but so do artificial cost differences.

    In recent years we have seen high tech first world factories out competed by low tech third world factories that relied on cheap labour. Cheap labour is a disaster for economic progress as it can be used as a substitute for technological progress.
    Arguably the existence of slave labour stopped the technological development of the Greco-Roman civilisation and held up the industrial revolution for a thousand years.

     

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    Kazi, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:18am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    English wasn't ... now it is.

    It became in the 1980's when the Berlin wall fell. Before that all the Eastern Countries taught Russian and your native language. After the wall fell it became English and your native language.

    I started Learning English at the age of 8 or so. That is, in addition to my native language.

     

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    CmdrOberon, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:18am

    Re: Re: Re:

    First, I didn't know it took a higher degree to criticize
    how others are operating their businesses.

    Secondly, this blog isn't particularly tech-related.
    It's more about how random old-school businesses are
    missing opportunities.

     

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    AMATI, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:19am

    US A

    "
    rather than work with US companies to grow them?
    "

    The problem with this discussion is the word US, us. Deep within the subconscious the person thinks, "I'll get a job so that I can have income enough to hire someone to do all the chores I don't like to do. I'll own the position then sit down and relax."

    If people who do own positions would actually do more useful things at workplace then it easily follows that workplace generates more profit, profit to hire more workers until the world approaches the asymptote of full employment.

    There is no *us*, no *them*. We all float within the same boat. Each of us needs to think of more useful things to do at workplace, more projects for self, more projects for subordinates. If enough people do this then finding a job will disappear. The jobs will be searching for each of us.

    ☺☻ ☺☻ ☺☻ ☺☻ ☺☻ ☺☻ ☺☻ ☺☻ ☺☻ ☺☻ ☺☻ ☺☻ ☺☻ ☺☻

     

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    Kazi, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:22am

    Re: Re: Re:

    What do they show about me ... ?

     

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    old AmeriCAN, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:22am

    All in the same boat and it's sinking.

    The list of things not good for America is so long that it staggers the mind and would leave you in deep depression. This seems to be the popular state we would prefer to dwell on. Problems abound, but solution is clear, prioritize the problems first and work on it's solution then go to the next on the list. Number ONE, people need JOBS. No money, no food, no houses, no education, no nothing. We developed a service economy and when we outsource, what do we have left. Not a Rocket Scientist, but I am an Engineer and in the words of a SNL skit "Fix IT!!!" Get people to work, build schools, roads, speed trains, mandate E85 to get more farmers, mandate Military equipment and parts be made in USA...hmmm national security? Stop looking a polls and start doing.

     

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    Lang, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:23am

    Mike, I think the majority of the comments here have more or less answered your question. It's not that it makes sense to do so, but we're talking about a lot of misunderstanding, mistrust, paranoia, prejudice, and stereotype.

     

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    Trails, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:24am

    Blech

    It's "They took er jerbs!!!" nonsense spouted by Lou Dobbs and other idiots, and it's damaging the US.

    The quality of life in the US would be worse but for the illegals doing shitty jobs for low pay. If anything they deserve protections (Human Rights, and illegals are Human) not persecution.

     

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    zaven (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:25am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Maybe it has trouble with the lower case English more than french because it's an American spell checker. We do use "french fries" a lot more often than any food that starts with english such as "english muffin".

    On the subject of foreign languages, I would think that part of the reason most Americans don't learn one is due to necessity. I would imagine living in Europe, people travel to other countries every now and then just as we travel from state to state. Only difference is here every state speaks english. The only borders we have are Canada to the north (hey, they speak English there), and Mexico to the south. I'm getting a little ticked off every time I hear the "Americans only speak English because they think the world revolves around them" attitude. Honestly, if you didn't need to speak a foreign language your daily routine, what percentage of people would still learn one? Just wondering.

     

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    mobiGeek (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:26am

    Re: Fewer Foreigners Coming To US Grad Schools: This Is A Problem

    So, what you are saying is that the American management of that company is stupid, lacks foresight and are not noticing or quite accepting that they are building an inferior product?

    This "foreigner" who comes to "steal ideas" must have worked that black magic voodoo on the American immigration staff, the company they come to work for, their co-workers and their neighbors to be able to get away with this.

    If a $80,000 job can be done by someone for $50,000 then why should ANYONE be paid more to do it? As a customer, why would I want to pay more for an equivalent product that could be produced cheaper?

    And if the product ends up being poor, I'll take my business elsewhere.

    So I'm at a loss as to why you vent your anger at these foreigners coming and "stealing". It seems that if that's what is actually happening, a lot of organizations and people are complicit in it.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:31am

    Wow, this is kind of a flip-flop. Mike is saying that competition is bad for us? America NEEDS competition. We NEED to be driven towards achieving higher goals. We have become far, far too complacent.

    I will not argue the point that foreign workers may be helping to start companies in this country. However, why can't American workers do the same thing? Our economy has tanked, and more and more people are jobless all the time. You're telling me that there aren't skilled computer nuts out there that can be hired into these positions?

    I am strongly against foreign workers taking away jobs that rightfully belong to Americans, no matter whether it's on our soil or theirs. Them working here may start companies, but they're doing so at the expense of Americans sitting without jobs. That is not the right way to grow our economy.

    Furthermore, many of these foreign workers are getting a free ride here. They're getting paid through an employment agency in their home country, meaning the money is going out of the country before they get it, meaning no income taxes are withheld, meaning they're living here and getting paid by US companies but don't pay any of the taxes that Americans have to pay in order to live here. So let's recap. They're taking plenty money out of our country, and not putting much of anything back in. How is this an improvement? Don't get me wrong, I don't wish failure on anybody, but when it comes to success, I prefer that my fellow Americans get first dibs.

     

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    mobiGeek (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:33am

    Re: Blech

    But "illegals" is a different thing from foreign students coming to study and, hopefully, settling down in the US.

    This isn't about doing "shitty jobs". It is about a talented individual deciding to do what they are going to do in the US rather than elsewhere. That talent leads to more jobs around them, most of which are available to US citizens.

    Otherwise that talent goes elsewhere and creates jobs around them for the citizens of that other place.

    And I agree with you on the protections front.

     

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    Chronno S. Trigger (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:35am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "Maybe it has trouble with the lower case English more than french because it's an American spell checker. We do use "french fries" a lot more often than any food that starts with english such as "english muffin"."

    That makes sense. I didn't think of that.

    "Honestly, if you didn't need to speak a foreign language your daily routine, what percentage of people would still learn one? Just wondering."

    That's what I meant to say, you just said it a hell of a lot better.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:42am

    I, for one, am all for poaching more women engineers from other countries. Especially women engineers of the Hot Swedish variety.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:53am

    Grad schools in the US

    Before I went to grad school, at a public university, I was put on a wait list and the admissions director told me that my scores/interviews/etc. were great but they already had enough US citizens and they were waiting to see how many foreign applications they received before accepting any more. I got in about two weeks before the semester started and was really pissed to find that many foreign students that were accepted weren't within 60 to 70 points of my GMAT and could barely speak English.

    Now having said that, I met and am still good friends with many of those students, many of whom did stay in the US and are great assets to the companies they work for. But when it comes to public universities, I still strongly believe that US citizens, that meet the published standards for admission, should never lose a place, or even possibly lose a place, to a foreign citizen.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:55am

    Re: Re: They wont necessarily be competing - just working for less

    "Wouldn't it be better to have them work here, buying stuff in our stores and paying our taxes."

    No, its a global economy now . . . remember?

     

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  44.  
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    dino, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:56am

    How about a swap

    Allow me to veer this discussion off in an entirely different direction:

    I'll trade my US programmer job with somebody from a European country. Say, a country with rational healthcare that has no 'preexisting condition' madness. US healthcare is a disaster. We are getting shit on in this country and it's looking like the don't-change-healthcare loons are gaining ground.

    Here, read some fun stories.

     

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  45.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:57am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "Secondly, this blog isn't particularly tech-related."

    That its terribly named and marketed?

     

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  46.  
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    Pat, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 8:02am

    Re:

    Good point. I imagine workforce productivity would increase. I wonder if there have been any studies on this phenomenon. The more I think about it, the more I recognize your subtle genius.

     

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  47.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 8:04am

    Re: They wont necessarily be competing - just working for less

    I've worked in 3 Countries as a "foreigner", each time earning much more than the average in my field.

     

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  48.  
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    Trails, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 8:05am

    Re: Re: Blech

    Absolutely.

    I was chipping in my two cents re: "Can someone please explain why it's somehow better to let those people compete with US companies, rather than work with US companies to grow them? "

    IMO, it's not so much about foreign workers, as foreigners in general, and the resurgence in american xenophobia was brought about by what I'm describing above.

     

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  49.  
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    John Doe, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 8:06am

    Re: Displacement

    Heck, I now live in a country where 80% of the people believe in Evolution compared to 40% in the States. And that's an improvement?

     

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  50.  
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    TheStupidOne, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 8:10am

    Re: Re: Re:

    You do a lot of drinking in any engineering or other technical degree ... After working for 30 straight hours on your senior project and it finally works you get incredibly drunk and pass out. You celebrate and being drunk keeps you from tinkering with the project any more.

     

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  51.  
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    Trails, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 8:12am

    Re: Re:

    Actually there have been. I can't dig it up at the moment, but if you have a group of males and you introduce a female employee, especially a hot one, the males all start to work harder, the theory being that sexual competition innately forces men to try to appear as more desirable partners.

    The same phenomenon has been observed when introducing a male into a female-dominated work environment.

     

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  52.  
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    PrometheeFeu (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 8:12am

    Re: Fewer Foreigners Coming To US Grad Schools: This Is A Problem

    First, the idea that foreign students that stay in the US command less of a salary is just stupid. We operate in the same market and have the same expenses. If foreign students can offer to do the job for $30k less, so can others. Your problem is not competing with foreigners, it's just competing with other people (esp students) period. Students right out of college need a job because of student loans and they have less experience so they will take jobs at a lower price than other people because they get compensated in a better resume and skills learned. Actually, because foreign students don't get access to as many scholarships and subsidized loans as locals, they have higher loans and therefore higher expenses in general which should push their salary requirements higher.
    Also, the idea that foreigners care less about their company than locals is further bullshit. Company loyalty has nothing to do with nationality. If you treat your employees right they will have loyalty. If you don't, they won't. It's as simple as that.
    Also, you should perhaps go and lookup what viruses and malware are. It has nothing to do with buggy software. Buggy software is software that makes mistakes. Malware and viruses are small pieces of software that are installed on your computer with malicious intent. And I can swear to you that we foreigners have better things to do than risk our jobs in order to damage your precious word documents.

     

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  53.  
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    John Doe, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 8:14am

    Re: How about a swap

    So rational healthcare is all it takes for you to be happy? You could probably get that job now, why wait?

    But since you went there, do you really think the proposed "solution" is just that? Real reform would require tort reform, prescription drug regulation, etc. There is plenty that could be done with the system we have without a wholesale replacement but you don't want to hear about that do you?

     

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  54.  
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    Trails, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 8:14am

    Re: How about a swap

    Come to Canuckistan, we have maple syrup and poutine!!!

     

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  55.  
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    PRMan, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 8:16am

    Re: Displacement

    "As an American IT worker that had to find work out of the country due inability to compete with indentured H1B servants I can't help but grin as the 'cheap' labor leaves for home leaving the U.S. with nothing in its intellectual 'bank'. Foreign labor sacrifices long-term intellectual capital for short-term profitability. And if you think those of us who left will come back to get screwed again, go stuff it. Heck, I now live in a country where 80% of the people believe in Evolution compared to 40% in the States. So long, knuckleheads."

    You were too inadequate to compete with H1Bs and you're calling us knuckleheads? OK. Whatever. This creationist (who has consistently blown away the competition, especially H1Bs, with the help of God Almighty) says, "Good luck and have a nice life. I'm glad you are happy, even though I can see that you're really not."

     

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  56.  
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    JackSombra (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 8:17am

    Re: Re: Fewer Foreigners Coming To US Grad Schools: This Is A Problem

    "So, what you are saying is that the American management of that company is stupid, lacks foresight and are not noticing or quite accepting that they are building an inferior product?"
    Truth? Probably. Sadly, as the current recession has proven, most business no longer care about the long term or quality, it's all about short term saving and profit. Who cares about the long term? That does not affect this years bonus's/shareholder profits.

    Why would current management care if actions/savings done now have negative effect 3 to 4 years down the road when the people who made those decisions will be long gone

    Current place I am working is a prime example, they got into the outsourcing craze big time back in early days and made huge savings, initially.

    Now though they are getting ripped off left and right by outsourcers because they know they have them over the proverbial barrel because the company no longer have the internal expertise so they cannot bring stuff back in house and it would be way to complicated to move outsourcers for very little benefit. And guess what? Ones responsible for jumping on that outsourcing bandwagon to such an extent collected their bonus's long ago and are now long gone

    "If a $80,000 job can be done by someone for $50,000 then why should ANYONE be paid more to do it? As a customer, why would I want to pay more for an equivalent product that could be produced cheaper?"
    It can be done for $50,000 because that guy has no intension in remaining long term in the county and building a life there, thus is not looking at paying out for mortgage, kids collage, savings so forth, he will be doing those things back home where the purchasing power of the $50,000 probably buys him the equivalent of $120,000 life style

     

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  57.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 8:21am

    Most of these guys come here, take slots that Americans would love, and can't get into because they are given a slot ahead of qualified Americans because they are minority students. They are given special scholarships because they are minority students. When they graduate, they are given special free loans and grants because they are minority students. They then hire Americans that they treat like shit. It's sad that all this happens on the backs of tax payers. This is just another tool in the progressives bag of tricks to dumb down America and enslave it's uneducated population.

     

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  58.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 8:24am

    who cares

    They take jobs people want and need. Plus, there's a huge number of those immigrants that I can't understand when I need something. Fuck 'em. Let them be skilled in their own country because the price of their goods goes up with shipping.

     

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  59.  
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    Ed C., Aug 25th, 2009 @ 8:25am

    Re: Re: Displacement

    The fact that you even had to ask says a lot.

    BTW El Guapo, what country did you move to?

     

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  60.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 8:35am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    This happens frequently with most good comedy writers as well. Perhaps most notably, with alumnus of the Harvard Lampoon.

     

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  61.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 8:37am

    Re: Displacement

    "Foreign labor sacrifices long-term intellectual capital for short-term profitability"

    This is absolutely true, it is again the by product of a short sighted, "this quarter" corporate mentality.

     

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  62.  
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    Vic, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 8:43am

    But the illegals are here to stay, right?

    They are going to replace that dwindling flow of foreign skilled workers! So, do not worry America, you're still getting fresh blood into your economy. They'll compete...

    Oh, yeah, they are usually less skilled... But that's OK, they will take on problems by numbers, we have many more of them and their numbers are growing.

    So, don't be sad, all you ACs, the schools are not going to be empty - the kids of illegals will take those places!


    P.S. Yes, I am one of those newcomers to the US. Although I did not go to school here, I just work (it was a good job opportunity for a skilled worker). But I do know a few foreigners (my former colleagues) that started their own companies, and the majority of them are in CA - Bay Area.

     

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  63.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 8:47am

    Re: Re:

    "If nothing else, this will leave more school space open for American students, who can get an education, start up new businesses, and hire other Americans."

    Wait, WHAT? School space is not a limited resource. The more demand there is for grad schools, the more grad schools there will be. If foreign students stop coming to US schools, then demand drops and grad schools start shrinking until the supply matches the demand... or, more likely, grad schools compensate by lowering their standards, thus increasing the pool of eligible students by lowering the quality.

     

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  64.  
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    Ed C., Aug 25th, 2009 @ 8:48am

    Re: Fewer Foreigners Coming To US Grad Schools: This Is A Problem

    Actually, we didn't come from apes. Nobody that knows much about evolution believes that either. What the evidence does show (and there is a lot of it) is that we're related to earlier primates. The over 98% of the human genome that we share in common with chimps came from a common ancestral species, which fossil record continues to confirm.

     

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  65.  
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    Ed C., Aug 25th, 2009 @ 9:02am

    Re: Re: How about a swap

    Yes, but with the amount of reform needed, the health-care system would no longer resemble what we have now either.

     

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  66.  
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    Anonymous Coward 2, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 9:02am

    Re:

    US students who historically are not even more than 25% of the population who earn a higher education degree?

    trust me, if foreigners are taken out of our schools (they pay on average 4 to 5 times the amount an American pays to the education system) Americans will feel the burden of the soaring costs.

    Foreign students ARE THE GOLD MINE for our system since they just are taxed wildly. but guess what? when u keep a cap on H1B visas and then after that tap is proved to be stupid after a few years, u still keep it and in response make the process lottery-like, it clearly shows that there is some technically unexplainable hostility toward foreigners. this trickles down the chain and makes people who would have gone for a masters after a BA, not to pursue that at such a high cost and instead head north to Canada which does have much more welcoming immigration policies or for the worst matter to Europe which is a threatening economic power now.

    there is an expression for this: America is seeing as far as the tip of our nose!!!! this is no long-term positive planning...

     

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  67.  
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    sam, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 9:03am

    Americans are simply naive

    first of all, there is no need to argue about whether the USA needs more immigrants or not, as it is obvious from every aspect that this country was found by immigrants and is always in need of workforce of all kinds.

    Second point is as a reply to those who are blatantly claiming China this India that blah blah...
    China was asleep for 100 years now, it is simply natural that when they have finally awaken they will make some noise, but that stops there, noise and just noise till they are saturated...

    from the History of the world, the leading nation was always the most righteous not the most powerful, but the most powerfully only when there was no righteous...
    the USA is leading the world because it is the country with the most social justice, not because of its military power.

    now back to the point, Americans do things because they like them while in most foreign countries people do things because they are forced too or because of necessity.

    an American born will most likely choose a major which leads to a profession where he could have a good life as well as a good paycheck: as in cinematography, fashion, art stuff etc...
    a foreigner will never even think about such a major since he was not prepared for that and most likely have no idea what it even is, plus, the only area he can see as uncharted territory for him would be scientific subjects since they are universal and he has an edge in those subjects VS an American born simply because most of college math in the US is done in high school in most called 3rd world countries .

    so after all of this, the IQ and racism have nothing to do around here, its all about where people are raised in.


    now comes a more important part of this subject which is the US pedagogic system, which as i see it has to main components:
    1- pre college
    2- post college

    in pre college, US students are the worst internationally, and from looking at the curricullum, it is evident that they are not being prepared to be neither scientists nor writers, but just made illiterate enough to absorb any kind of BS thrown at them.

    2- post college is a totally different story, US grads rank no less than first internationally, and that is partly people do what they like and are thus more prone to achieve higher goals faster than others who are forced to researcha subject in which they have no interest.

     

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  68.  
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    Anonymous Coward 2, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 9:03am

    Re: Re: Re:

    this has no bearing. I'm an accounting Major yet I'm a tech geek too. where is your logic smartass?

     

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  69.  
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    Anonymous Coward 2, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 9:07am

    Re:

    why would foreigners come here anyway

    i conclude u r a fucking racist!
    this kind of thinking just shows your behind the scenes rooms!!! well, too bad for u mister, because even the most racist politicians can't do much about 50000 free green cards given out every year by the govt nor can they do much about all the 120000 H1B visas they give out every year and the only thing changing is the pressure mounting by the companies on these ppl to increase these numbers. I'm sorry for you since u will forever live in agony as your imaginationland can never exist!

    now go over this again, find my gramattical errors "than" start coursin my foreigner ass out! :)))) btw u noticed how many white pure americans still get THEN & THAN wrongly, thats fíng embarrassing

     

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  70.  
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    BobinBaltimore (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 9:25am

    Re: Re: Fewer Foreigners Coming To US Grad Schools: This Is A Problem

    "If a[n] $80,000 job can be done by someone for $50,000 then why should ANYONE be paid more to do it."

    Your statement speaks volumes about almost all Unionized labor and, for that, I applaud you. ;-)

     

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  71.  
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    BobinBaltimore (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 9:28am

    Re: Taking a broader view of the question:

    Time for the Dark Helmet blog on Tech Dirt. THAT I would pay for, no need for t-shirts.

     

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  72.  
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    CastorTroy-Libertarian, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 9:31am

    Re: How about a swap

    WOW, so collecting a paycheck from ACORN are ya...
    Because the Government has managed the DMV, the VA (it suxes, ask a Vet) or even cash for clunkers, well... oh wait NO they pretty much run overbudget (yea more tax) and underservice... so no thanks, ill find a way to pay for my health care and you can cry that nobody will give you yours.

     

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  73.  
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    CastorTroy-Libertarian, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 9:36am

    Re: Americans are simply naive

    Ok, thats actually a pretty good point, not sure if i agree 100% but interesting and well said.

     

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  74.  
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    Josh (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 9:52am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Great idea. Just one problem.

    I have a bad feeling that there are actually more good looking female engineers/scientist types then there are male ones.

    Of course I'm the exception. At least that's what my wife tells me.

    ....cue the flaming. :P

     

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  75.  
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    Benjie, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 10:02am

    The blame game

    too many people blame the foreigners for "stealing" their jobs. Really, either the company they work for is crap or that person is crap. In a highly educated market, you don't want to be in IT unless it's advanced stuff like VPN management and visualization. If it's just easy crap like fixing computers, well, I did that just fine when I was 8 years old.

    On the flip side, you also have companies that don't give a crap and if they can buy disposable cheap IT over dedicate good IT.... well, don't work for them.

     

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  76.  
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    mobiGeek (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 10:11am

    Re: Re: Re: Fewer Foreigners Coming To US Grad Schools: This Is A Problem

    Then Business Darwin is doing its job. The poor choices of management are driving the company into the ground and customer dollars are going elsewhere.

    Still don't see how the "foreigners stealing ideas" concept comes out of that. Seems like "foreigners" are the current scapegoat. After Lou Dobbs gets them all run out, what is the next innocent thing to be blamed?

     

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  77.  
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    Alan Gerow (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 10:12am

    Re:

    Why should they have to stay here? Is getting several hundred thousands of dollars out of them for an education not enough? Then, they pay for housing, food, goods & services to live.

    At what point have they put in their indentured servitude that they can return to their families in their home countries with their American education & cultural assimilation?

     

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  78.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 10:15am

    Re: How about a swap

    @dino

    Wow, it amazes me how incredibly short-sighted some people can be. You must be one of those people that accepts everything the government and news media tells you as fact, without checking it out for yourself.

    I won't argue that our current health care system is a mess. However, nationalized health care IS NOT THE ANSWER!!! If you think things are bad now, just wait until the government is running everything. Canada already tried this, and the person who played a major role in pushing for government-run health care now acknowledges that the system is falling apart, and is trying to push for increases in privatized health care. If you don't have a family doctor right now in the USA, I bet you could go get one today. In Canada, you'll be lucky to get a family doctor in 2-3 years time. Yes, that's 2-3 YEARS!!!

    Oh, and don't forget that when the Republicans were trying to pass legislation that would de-regulate much of the private health care industry (thus leading to bigger competition and more affordable health care for all, which is the right way to fix the problem), Obama repeatedly voted against such propositions. Now he's flip-flopped and wants to push health care reform, but in a way that gives the government the right to decide who deserves to live or die. Yeah, that just makes me feel all warm a fuzzy.

    Our constitution does NOT give us the right to health care, and contrary to popular belief, it is not the government's responsibility to provide health care. It is, in fact, our duty as human beings to care for one another, regardless of what country we live in, what government controls us, or how much money we have. That is the true meaning of universal health care, humans caring for other human beings. It makes me very sad to see it being twisted around and used as a tool by greedy and power-hungry politicians, doctors, insurance companies, and pharmaceutical companies. Health care should NEVER be about money or power. It should be about taking care of our brothers and sisters.

     

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  79.  
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    Alan Gerow (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 10:16am

    Re: Re: They wont necessarily be competing - just working for less

    Not necessarily, because then the cost of the items or services they're providing will increase with the increase in business overhead (usually in government licensing costs, industry regulations, union demands, mandatory minimum wage, etc).

    So, they may spend their salaries and pay taxes here, but then every other person in the US has to spend a little bit more of their money which gets filtered into the government coffers instead of personal bank accounts.

    So, better for government, yes. But far worse for the average person.

     

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  80.  
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    Alan Gerow (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 10:19am

    Re:

    There is no shortage of space at schools. If too many foreign students show up, they open up an extra class. Most colleges are having problems filling the slots they have.

    No college has 25% of its students with student VISAs.

     

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  81.  
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    yozoo, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 10:21am

    Re: Re:

    "because even the most racist politicians can't do much about 50000 free green cards given out every year by the govt nor can they do much about all the 120000 H1B visas they give out every year "

    Dont fool yourself, politicans can do ALOT about that (they could end it completely) and if they are properly motivated (if its seen as benefiting them more then the corporate money they recieve) they will indeed do something about it. If you think politicians make decisions based on whats best for the country, then I can only guess you are not American and/or have not been here very long, becuase thats clearly NOT how representative democracy works.

     

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  82.  
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    Dark Helmet (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 10:25am

    Re: Re: Taking a broader view of the question:

    "Time for the Dark Helmet blog on Tech Dirt. THAT I would pay for, no need for t-shirts."

    I appreciate the sentiment, but are you nuts? Who wants to read blog post after blog post of me just ranting and raving on things that piss me off, the majority of subjects of which I have only a modicum(sp?) of knowledge?

    Realistically, I know a few things really well, and lots of things somewhat well. I could do a blog about American/European history, secret societies, conspiracy theories, political science, and maybe a little network security...what a terrible combination.

    That's not a blog, it's a TV show...

     

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  83.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 10:27am

    Re: Re: How about a swap

    "Oh, and don't forget that when the Republicans were trying to pass legislation that would de-regulate much of the private health care industry (thus leading to bigger competition and more affordable health care for all, which is the right way to fix the problem), "

    Thats funny I dont remember republicans doing anything for the six years they totally controlled every aspect of government . . . except the giant pharma giveaway? Did I miss them trying to fix healthcare in between saving Terry Shivo and warning us all against the horrors of gay marriage?

     

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  84.  
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    brent (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 10:40am

    Re: Re:

    it's not about that. Usually the case is that they want to stay here. we certainly dont force them to stay but alot would choose to stay as it wasn't difficult to get a VISA and work here. It's still relatively easy to get an education here but now it's really difficult to get the VISA to stay here to work so many just go elsewhere and use their skills in foreign countries which does not help the US. I will never understand what the reasoning is behind this other than paranoia from 9/11 and what not.

     

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  85.  
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    brent (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 10:45am

    Re: Re: Re:

    that's a ridiculous thing to say. I knew i was going to be an engineering student going into college and was faced with picking Iowa or Iowa State. I definitely chose Iowa because I knew it was a much more fun school to party at. I graduated with an electrical engineering degree and am doing just fine. even people who pick "hard" majors may still want an animal house experience.

     

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  86.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 10:47am

    Re: Re: How about a swap

    "Our constitution does NOT give us the right to health care"

    It also provides no RIGHT to:

    police protection
    fire protection
    highways
    public education
    social security or medicare/medicade
    an air force or the marines
    CIA or NSA
    NASA
    Department of Homeland Security
    etc etc etc

    As a society over the years we have discovered a number of things a modern civilization requires to stay competative in a world market.

     

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  87.  
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    brent (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 10:53am

    Re: Americans are simply naive

    you made me feel better about the future, thanks

     

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  88.  
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    johnney (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 11:03am

    I TOTALLY disagree with your statement that fewer foreigners is bad for our economy.
    Foreigners come here for one reason: MONEY
    That's fair. Except there is no money and it has steadily decreased, regardless of the quantity of foreigners, at a depression level rate.
    The most obvious is that there is no 'economy' but that which the US govt is trying to manipulate & either sell or steal from the rightful, nonforeign, citizen by the simple means of walmarting us to death and then playing the protector or fixer, if you will.
    The very fact that millions of illegal immigrants are staying in this country at the US taxpayer's expense while they steal EVERY job and are allowed to buy illegal ssn cards, jam up our jails only to be rerelaesed back into our own country is proof positive that the govt is and has for quite some time been just about the govt & not about the people at all.
    Hi-tech corporations advertize so that real americans will either be diqualified and or not want to apply while these same jobs are them handed to a lesser payed foreigner.
    Bottom line: as long as our resources are given away, stolen, and sold to anybody and everybody without prejudice, this only truly benefits the very same govt which allows it to happen.
    I don't recall a single bailout dollar going to ANYONE but only to corporations and to keep the thieves in office in office. So from a logical and practical standpoint the entities with large pockets get bailed out while the 'people' who just payed off these self-same 'entities' are the ones who are actually hurting. Meanwhile, the bailed-out entities go on vacation and hand out MASSIVE bonuses to their employees.
    I'm sure you would like to think of the govt as being a responsible, in your interest entity but, sadly, I think you are highly mistaken.

     

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    Alan Gerow (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 11:07am

    Re: Re: Re:

    But the post said "No one should have a problem with a foreigner coming here, obtaining an education, and staying here" with emphasis on "staying here" ...

    I just don't see why that last bit should be there at all, particularly emphasized. Why can the sentence not end with:

    "No one should have a problem with a foreigner coming here, obtaining an education."

    If the person wants to leave and doesn't want to get a work VISA, then does that mean we SHOULD have a problem with someone coming from out of the country to get an education here and wanting to return home?

     

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    Dark Helmet (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 11:10am

    Re:

    "Except there is no money and it has steadily decreased, regardless of the quantity of foreigners, at a depression level rate"

    True, we have a negative trade balance since 1976 and for the first time since 1916 we have more debt owed t foreign creditors than foreign debt owed to us. That's pretty scary...

    "The most obvious is that there is no 'economy' but that which the US govt is trying to manipulate & either sell or steal from the rightful, nonforeign, citizen by the simple means of walmarting us to death and then playing the protector or fixer, if you will."

    You're close, but the true manipulator of the economy is the Fed, which is NOT part of the United States Government, nor has it ever been, despite its name.

    The rest of your post makes you sound extremely xenophobic, which is odd because the problem doesn't lie with poor imigrants that come to America for money, but rathe with the wealthy elite creating a seesaw fluctuation in the market through the Fed in order to manipulate profits.

     

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    johnney (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 11:12am

    And as far as NEEDING foreigners? FUCK foreigners! Every country no matter how big has just so many resources with which to allow it's population to exist upon. the 'need' went away long long ago.

     

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  92.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 11:24am

    Re: Re: Taking a broader view of the question:

    Or maybe not.

     

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  93.  
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    El Guapo, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 11:44am

    Re: Re: Re: Displacement

    Moved to Iceland. Watched the Kreppa (the clench) happen to their economy. Had to scramble a bit but am still on my feet enjoying free health care and low energy bills. Working in medical imaging, so I am not without skills. Tried to get a job in the States during boom time for a year. The only born-Americans that interviewed me were at a Christian Radio website. Every single other interview was conducted by someone from India or China. The fact that I am a Pastafarian and interviewed for a job in Christian Radio should indicate the breadth and desperation of my search. Been an expat four years total and heartily recommend it.

     

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  94.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 11:46am

    Re: Re: Re: Taking a broader view of the question:

    Odd. Well, let me tell you something, about you, Sir. You seem to act like a frightened little child seeking some sort of final, definitive truth. Perhaps this has some roots in your youth. Your quest for this "final truth" as it applies to the Trilateral Commission, the Federal Reserve, and the like, will not be found here. Granted, at times we joke about it like MBAs sometimes tell each other Foucault jokes.

    But as time goes on, it seems what drives you is very different, and it seems your in the wrong place, Dark Helmet. We talk about much lower level things. So you can do one of three things: 1) Instead of trying to understand the Fed and Trilateral, picture them as "black holes" in your mind where the unexplainable is done. Ask a question to the Black Hole, and maybe you'll get an answer. You're from Planet Spaceball. Seen "The Producers"? Get it? Good. 2) If someone offers you help, don't push them away. 3)


    Note: #3 is left intentionally blank. I'll let you write #3.

     

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    Teknodruid, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 11:48am

    Laughable

    they come here and get special loans and grants for being a 'minority' student.

    Then they graduate and get special loans and considerations for being 'minority' business owners/start ups.

    They work for a few years and make really good money compared to their home countries (India is a perfect example in my area) with that money socked away... and live like kings in their country while using their American subsidized college degree to create competing companies that can use CHEAP labor to compete and defeat American companies because of the cheaper labor. since the workers they hire didn't need to pay $100,000 to get a degree and don't have crushing school loans to repay.

    American companies LOVE to hire these guys... they get a nice boost to their EEOC compliance for hiring minorities... and most companies know these workers will only be here for a short time (5-8 yrs on average) and don't care so much about retirement accounts and long term health insurance. So it is cheaper in the long run to get the EEOC compliance and look forward to a turn over before they get/demand too many raises.

    Simple math man... American workers want to stay, get raises, raise kids, pay off loans, get bigger and better junk to buy... Foreign workers want to make money ASAP and then move back to their home countries and live like kings off the American dollars they made and don't create such a drag on the companies.

    Quit ass kissing and do some real reporting... this is a prime example of ass kissing to the minorities.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 12:07pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Displacement

    "Moved to Iceland"

    are all the chicks as georgous as they seem from here?

     

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    Dark Helmet (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 12:09pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Taking a broader view of the question:

    Okay, seems like you have some kind of deep-seeded issue with me that I don't truly understand.

    "Odd. Well, let me tell you something, about you, Sir. You seem to act like a frightened little child seeking some sort of final, definitive truth."

    Absolutely...about EVERYTHING. Now, I know that there is no final, definitive truth on most issues, but the seeking of knowledge and truth is a wonderful, noble ordeal that isn't a juvenile endeavor, as you portrayed, nor does it make one frightened, but is rather the very reason for human existence and civilization. The idea that you can equate the thirst for knowledge, regardless of subject matter, as a detrimental thing...wow, that's truly sad. Call me a child, call me Fox Mulder, hell, you can call me an idiot if you like. If looking for truth makes me child, then I say bring on the footie pajamas and sugary cereal!

    "Your quest for this "final truth" as it applies to the Trilateral Commission, the Federal Reserve, and the like, will not be found here."

    Of course not, not all of it anyway, as that is not what this site is largely about. However, when certain topics warrant their mention in my opinion, I'll bring them up as I please. I don't mention them in every or even most posts, so I'm not sure what your problem is.

    "But as time goes on, it seems what drives you is very different, and it seems your in the wrong place, Dark Helmet."

    I find the posts and people in this community VERY interesting and informative...so how can that statement be true? This is clearly the RIGHT place for me, although perhaps I'm not the right COMMENTER for you. In which case, of course, you're free to pay me no mind.

    "1) Instead of trying to understand the Fed and Trilateral, picture them as "black holes" in your mind where the unexplainable is done. Ask a question to the Black Hole, and maybe you'll get an answer."

    Absolutely not. Never. And if you seriously can't get past my choice of what I thought was a funny name and picture for my TD profile, then I feel bad for you.

    "2) If someone offers you help, don't push them away"

    I'm seriously unsure of to whom you're referring there. What "help" have I pushed away?

     

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  98.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 12:11pm

    Re: The blame game

    "too many people blame the foreigners for "stealing" their jobs. Really, either the company they work for is crap or that person is crap. In a highly educated market, you don't want to be in IT unless it's advanced stuff like VPN management and visualization. If it's just easy crap like fixing computers, well, I did that just fine when I was 8 years old."

    You have it completely backwards. Its the high end stuff that is most likely to be off shored. Its expensive and it can be done remotely. For someone to put more memory in your PC, they have to be local to your PC.

     

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  99.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 12:32pm

    Re: Re:

    "No college has 25% of its students with student VISAs."

    Look at post graduate science programs, at Standford or Berkley maybe. I know of one medical school where the rate is closer to 80%.

     

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    angry dude, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 12:54pm

    simple, dude

    Kids are smart nowadays - american AND foreign

    Nobody wants to be sucker

    To go to grad school for a PhD in hard sciences or engineering these days = be a sucker for the rest of your life (or lose 5-6 most productive years of your life at best)

    I know more people whose (professional) life has been ruined by getting PhD in Physics than by doing drugs

    Heck, I'm one of them (MS, MA and PhD)

    This country no longer offers a reasonable career path for PhD degree holders

     

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  101.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 12:54pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Taking a broader view of the question:

    Nope.

    I just find it odd that you decide to start with first sentence... It was the first sentence I decided to omit.


    Why not stop, and ask the questions you've asked of me to yourself?

    Have fun.

     

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  102.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 12:57pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Displacement

    ""Moved to Iceland""

    "are all the chicks as georgous as they seem from here?"

    Heck no! They're all snaggle-toothed and hunchbacked and scabrous and yucky. You stay away! They're mine! MINE!!!

     

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    The Infamous Joe (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 12:59pm

    Re: Re: Fewer Foreigners Coming To US Grad Schools: This Is A Problem

    Hey buddy, those fossils were put there by the Devil! It's a trick!!

    /sarcasm

     

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    mobiGeek (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 1:05pm

    Re: Re: How about a swap

    the person who played a major role in pushing for government-run health care now acknowledges that the system is falling apart, and is trying to push for increases in privatized health care.

    And just who would this "person who played a major role" be? Are you referring to Tommy Douglas (died 1961)? Or are you referring to players in the newer CanadaHealth Act (adopted in 1984)?

     

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  105.  
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    mobiGeek (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 1:07pm

    Re:

    Care to reference ANY credible source that matches your xenophobic description of foreign student programs?

    Can you reference a SINGLE incident of a capable US citizen that was denied entrance to a post secondary program because foreign students had "filled the slots"?

     

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  106.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 1:09pm

    Re: Re: Re: How about a swap

    LOL busted - this is the problem with regurgitating that right wing garbage, most of it is just made up.

     

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  107.  
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    mobiGeek (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 1:10pm

    Re:

    Right, and as Mike has pointed out, that line of thinking leads to stronger foreign competitors and thereby taking SUBSTANTIALLY more away from US companies.

     

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  108.  
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    mobiGeek (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 1:12pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Yes, because they leave to become competition. If they stay, they will grow the national economy. You don't see a problem with them simply leaving, un-encouraged (not discouraged) to stay?

     

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    mobiGeek (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 1:14pm

    Re: Re: Re: They wont necessarily be competing - just working for less

    OMG, I sure hope you aren't bringing any children into the world and affecting *my* costs.

     

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    The Infamous Joe (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 1:17pm

    All this hate..

    I may have taken a lot of time to read a stale thread-- but I'm amazed at all this distrust over which spot on which land mass another human so happened to be born on. Silly humans, always bickering over pointless topics.

    The root problem is that companies have a quota of "minority" employees they have to meet, which removes the level playing field-- which of course causes bitterness in the ones who now have an upward sloping playing field.

    Remove that, and let the best man/woman win. Now you don't have people saying they had a job "stolen" because some "minority" quota had to be met. Problem solved.

    Next?

     

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    Dark Helmet (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 1:25pm

    Re: All this hate..

    "Remove that, and let the best man/woman win. Now you don't have people saying they had a job "stolen" because some "minority" quota had to be met. Problem solved.

    Next?"

    Uh yes, back here! Infamous Joe? Yes, yes the one in the big helmet? Yes, me!

    Um, since you're deftly solving complex problems with overly simplistic solutions, maybe you want to touch upon what is going to be done about racism's affect on your "let the best man/woman win" theory once you've done away with the quotas?

     

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    mobiGeek (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 1:25pm

    Re: simple, dude

    Huh. Whereas every PhD I've worked with (8 in total now) seem to have achieved what they want in their careers, some being execs, some being directors, and two sitting in a corner happily chugging out incredible products, analysis and other materials.

    "Lose 5-6 years" is an obscenely abstract statement. What is it that these PhDs have "lost"? Was there something they were promised ahead of time, or that they would have achieved by not having more studies? If there is, then why on earth did they go study?

    In my view, those who go study end up with a PhD and a rich understanding of the information they were studying. What exactly is lost there?

     

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  113.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 1:25pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "Yes, because they leave to become competition"

    This statement is simply false. If it were true there might be something to argue about but it just isnt. Again the coporation I work for (one of the largest in the world) already off shores pretty much all of its technical work, so they can still work for us . . . no problem.

     

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  114.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 1:26pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Taking a broader view of the question:

    We're going to have a discussion at 5:00 EDT on a few subjects. Those involved, please click below.

    https://webmeeting.dimdim.com/portal/JoinForm.action?confKey=techdirt

     

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  115.  
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    Alan Gerow (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 2:02pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    So, they can come here and get an education and then have to become a slave to the US for it?

    I don't see a problem with anyone wanting to better themselves and gaining an education. Whether they want to do that in another country or not.

    I don't support the idea of slavery or indentured servitude of any kind.

    Instead, I think it would be better to see WHY they want to leave. What is it about the US economy that makes them see opening a business in their home country more viable? Are our taxes too high? Are the unions creating too costly of a workforce? Is the minimum wage making running a low profit business impractical? Are there too many government licensing costs & restrictions in place to enter a market? Are the incumbent companies keeping out competition through lobbyists? Are patents, copyrights, or trademarks creating too hostile of a marketplace to run a business?

    Instead of just opening a window to let the smoke out, find out where the fire is and put that out. Forcing students to stay is attacking the symptom without even looking at the cause.

     

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  116.  
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    Alan Gerow (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 2:06pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    I'm not talking about foreign-born, or 1st generation American. I'm talking foreign students on VISAs. I went to Boston University for a while, and there were a LOT of ethnic Asian kids in business classes ... but most of them were American citizens! I worked tech support at Harvard Medical School and there were a lot of ethnic Asians ... and most of them were American citizens!

     

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  117.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 2:10pm

    Notes from the conversation at 5:00.

    Thanks to those who joined.

    A multitude of things were discussed. First off, we need to clean up a lot of the crap that seems to be floating around here. Secondly, Mike Ho was nominated Employee of the Month for the next three months. Thirdly, It was declared by by unanimous decision that Mike Ho take Mike Masnick's place.

    To those who wanted to join but couldn't:
    Sorry, the free conference only allowed 20 people.

    Glad you could all join.

     

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  118.  
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    Alan Gerow (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 2:14pm

    Re: Re: Re: How about a swap

    No, over the years, the government has figured out more ways it can control and make money off of its citizens.

    Not a single one of those "services" do I want the government providing me. And if I could chose an alternative I would. But, unfortunately, for the "services" I can choose an alternative for, I still have to pay for the government's sub-standard "service".

     

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  119.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 2:33pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    You seem to think that being an Asian is a negative, Alan. That's sad.

     

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    Derek Kerton (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 2:54pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    If you think it started with paranoia from 9/11, you need to dig a little deeper in history. It won't be hard to see it started earlier than 2001. I could invoke Godwin's Law, but I won't. Instead, I'll go with the Irish migration to the US as an example of xenophobia in recent history.

     

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  121.  
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    Derek Kerton (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 2:57pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "But the post said "No one should have a problem with a foreigner coming here, obtaining an education, and staying here" with emphasis on "staying here"

    That's because the subject of discussion is that we are NOT helping these people stay here, and that as a result we are LOSING very valuable talent. The kind of talent that builds wealth, tax base, jobs, inventions, leadership.

    Your point is also true, that they should be free to leave. Many foreigners certainly pay the full cost of their educations, and even subsidize local students. But Mike's point is that we want them to come to our schools AND we want them to stay here to work. Because we don't let them stay through H1B quotas, they are less interested in even coming here to study at our relatively expensive schools.

     

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    Derek Kerton (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 3:52pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Brilliant. And they can pay taxes in Bangalore instead of Burlingame. And they can come up with their ideas for the next big thing in Punjab instead of Pittsburgh. And they can keep the ownership of startups (and thus the next generation of millionaires) in Chenai instead of Chicago. And they can join the VCs on Sanjay Hill Road instead of Sand Hill Road.

    You're right. Outsourcing hourly/salary tech jobs is just the same as bringing the world's best talent to the USA.

    Fools. This country has remained above average for 250 years not because the best and brightest are born here, but because the boldest, the best, and the brightest always came here.

    I grew up in Canada. Up there, we always used to complain about "the brain drain". It was a tragedy that many of the smartest, most trained professionals would move South for a bigger market and more opportunity. The income disparity in the US meant that to succeed in the US means more than to succeed in other countries. But while all the countries of the world have had to address this problem from an outbound perspective, the US never seemed to appreciate the benefits from an inbound perspective.

    And now the inflow is slowing down, and many out there still don't see how that could be a problem. Cherry picking the worlds best trained people has been good for the US. Is that general concept not ridiculously obvious?

     

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    Derek Kerton (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 4:04pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "Forcing students to stay is attacking the symptom without even looking at the cause"

    We're not talking about forcing them. We're just talking about allowing them.

    You're running around looking for a fire like "What makes America a bad place for starups?" But there is no fire! The US is still a great place to start a biz, but foreign grads simply aren't allowed to stay here, so they move home. Someday, if they start a biz, it will be abroad.

    BTW, while many large businesses shop the best location to build a campus, from what I've seen, most startups are based where the founders lived at the time they honed the idea and built their team. When they get funded, they revisit the issue, but usually stay put.

     

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  124.  
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    Derek Kerton (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 4:08pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    No, that is not enough proof. Nor should it be.

     

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    The Infamous Joe (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 4:09pm

    Re: Re: All this hate..

    Are you suggesting these quotas are to combat racism?

    Ah, Mr. Helmet, surely you jest.

    Affirmative action was put into place with the following thought processes:

    You have two men in a footrace. One man has a ball and chain clamped around his ankle. The gun fires, both men run. Obviously, the shackled man falls behind. Eventually, an enlightened judge says that shackling one and not the other isn't fair. So they remove the shackles. Now, the unshackled man is already so far ahead that there is no chance that the formerly-shackled man will ever catch up if the playing remains fair. So, naturally, you give the formerly-shackled man an edge.

    These came in the form of quotas and other so-called affirmative actions.

    We have a Black President. Any disadvantage that these minorities had are gone. We have minorities as experts in every profession. The playing field should, therefore, be leveled again.

    The shackled man has caught up, and any additional edge he is given is really just shackling the first man.

    Anything else? :)

     

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    Derek Kerton (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 4:16pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "Honestly, if you didn't need to speak a foreign language your daily routine, what percentage of people would still learn one? Just wondering."

    That sounds like a reasonable question, so here's a factual answer. Most French kids, for example, don't really need to speak a word of English. They don't travel much, they don't do much international business. All the media is translated for them (the dutch get subtitles, which has a measurable impact). As a result, they don't need English in their daily routine at all.

    However, their education system recognizes the future value of that ability, so a second and third language is de rigeur in France, and in the EU in general.

    So, to your question, if French kids didn't need to speak a foreign language in their daily routine [they don't], then 100% of them would still learn one.

     

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  127.  
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    Derek Kerton (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 4:26pm

    Re:

    He means American primary and secondary schools do such a poor job preparing Americans for such college courses.

    You know how you could have known? He said "majors", which implies college, and said US schools do a poor job "PREPARING" which only makes sense if the poor job were done *before* college. Apparently our schools don't do so well on reading comprehension, either.

    (Did you catch my use of the subjunctive? Did you think the "were" was a mistake? You still think so, don't you?)

     

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    Dark Helmet (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 4:29pm

    Re: Re: Re: All this hate..

    "Are you suggesting these quotas are to combat racism?

    Ah, Mr. Helmet, surely you jest."

    Having not been involved I have no idea what they were created to do. I simply asked a question about the affect in the present about the removal of all quotas carte blanche.

    Oh, and one other thing...

    "We have a Black President. Any disadvantage that these minorities had are gone."

    What a silly, meaningless statement. My opinions on how the President actually gets elected aside, His Blackness was elected in the same way as every President before him: by the Electoral College. Remember the 2000 election? When a majority of voters elected Gore President, but because of the way the math works out the Electoral College properly elected Bush as President? Think about that for a second.

    That means that 50% of this country could be batshit crazy racist and we could still have a black President.

    Racial equality is certainly BETTER by most citizens in America today, but gone racism is not. Have you been to the south? Or even the far north? I hear racism in my native Chicago all the time, the city from whose loins the President sprang.

    Sorry, brother, but you're dead wrong on that one...

     

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    CrushU, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 4:31pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    It is currently a requirement in this state to have at least taken High School courses in a foreign language to be accepted at any state-funded university. (North Carolina)

    This was actually a burden to me, I was home-schooled. They waived the requirement because I'd earned an Associate's degree. (Sciences, fyi...) At the moment, however, I am taking a foreign language.

    And will have no way to practice and continue using it. That's the main cause of people here not learning a second language. You have plenty of people that took some French/Spanish, but how many of them use/speak it? You *need* to continue using whatever you learned.

     

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    mobiGeek (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 4:48pm

    Re: Notes from the conversation at 5:00.

    Was that 5pm EST or PST?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  131.  
    identicon
    Griper, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 7:09pm

    Competition is good

    This is the swift kick in the pants America needs. Competition is what drives innovation. That's what Mike always says. Why is it bad now?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  132.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Aug 25th, 2009 @ 8:33pm

    Re:

    What's the problem in that since education is private over there?

    Some countries have an education model that favours public education and their concern is how to get foreigners to stay rather than setting barriers. I'd much rather go to a country that's figuring out how to keep me inside than one that's trying to keep me away.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  133.  
    icon
    Alan Gerow (profile), Aug 25th, 2009 @ 11:40pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    What the hell are you talking about? It's an example of how I'm saying that a minority ethnicity does not equal foreign, because I don't believe the percentage of 80% foreign students ... but I would believe 80% other ethnicities but they are American citizens and don't count as foreign.

    I think it's sad that you think mentioning someone being Asian is negative. :P

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  134.  
    identicon
    Indian_Dude, Aug 26th, 2009 @ 11:42am

    Re:

    It's too ironic you start to talk about flip-flopping and then proceed to demonstrate it admirably. If America needs competition, then Americans cannot get first dibs. You can have one or the other.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  135.  
    identicon
    Indian_Dude, Aug 26th, 2009 @ 11:47am

    Re: Grad schools in the US

    When I landed up in the US with a 2270 in the GRE, I had already been mortified by the number of guys in my class who had scored a 2400, or came real close (three people got 2390s). I expected to face similar humiliation when I landed up in school only to find that the average American who had been accepted at my school had barely managed 2000. I have a 770 in GMAT and the guys in business school with similar scores are all foreigners.

    You sound like you went to a loser grad school. Not surprising. The best foreigners usually go to schools that are ranked 20 or better.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  136.  
    icon
    chris (profile), Aug 26th, 2009 @ 3:37pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    First, I take complete exception to the "white people suck at math". The majority of my B.Math class of 500 was "white".

    Second, you switch from a generalization of "whites" to a generalization of "americans", leading people to believe you view "americans" == "white".


    white people are too sensitive. that's probably why they can't handle math.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  137.  
    icon
    Dark Helmet (profile), Aug 26th, 2009 @ 4:39pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "white people are too sensitive. that's probably why they can't handle math."

    True, but we rock the meth like an Asian only WISHES they could...

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  138.  
    icon
    SuperNova (profile), Aug 31st, 2009 @ 11:21am

    Re: Re: Fewer Foreigners Coming To US Grad Schools: This Is A Problem

    This is the proverbial "Hitting the nail on the head"
    Well just an oppinion... this is the "ME" generation... everybody want more money, more time off more of everything. Thank you mobiGeek for a well crafted response.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  139.  
    identicon
    obed Twumasi Ankrah, Sep 18th, 2009 @ 10:45am

    Hi

    I want to work in the US during our long vacations.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  140.  
    identicon
    John Crawley, Feb 15th, 2010 @ 9:27am

    I find it a little disturbing that foreigners coming to attend our schools, and our graduate schools, find it much easier to gain admission than U.S. born citizens that have lived here their entire life. If you have 200 foreign students applying to a medical school, it is much easier for all 200 of these students to gain admission to any medical school program than it is for a white male; regardless of qualifications. A white male with a 4.0 applying doesn't get to matriculate because a foreigner with a 3.0 took his spot because the school has to fill their foreign student requirement. Race supercedes qualifications now.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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