RSS
Twitter
To Make Its Case, Coupons.com Says It Blocks Users When It Doesn't
from the let's-get-this-straight dept
We recently noted the somewhat mixed ruling in the Coupons.com lawsuit over whether or not it's a DMCA violation to merely tell people to delete some files from their hard drive. The ruling noted that Coupons.com was trying to make a rather questionable argument. It's a bit technical, and it required multiple readings to really understand what's going on here, but effectively, Coupons.com is trying to invoke the DMCA's anti-circumvention clause to punish a programmer who figured out how to get around the limits enforced by Coupons.com's software, which lets users use a coupon a limited number of times. The real issue in this case is whether the software is about preventing uses or copies. If it's uses, then it's not covered by the DMCA. If it's copies, then it is. The court noted that it certainly seems like the software is focused on uses rather than copies, as there's no actual part of the software that blocks you from accessing the coupons as much as you want. It just blocks you from using them.
The programmer, John Stottlemire, who is being sued in this case, writes in to let us know that Coupons.com has just described its system in a misleading way in order to convince the court that its software really is copy protection rather than use protection, claiming: "The features block an individual computer's access to a particular coupon offer altogether if that computer does not have the proper registry keys in place." In other words, there is copy protection that blocks access if the registry keys are missing.
That claim may sound a lot like copy protection, but that's not actually how their system works. Coupons.com doesn't block access to its coupons based on a registry key -- because if you don't have a registry key, Coupons.com simply issues you new one. And that's not how copy protection usually works; that's how usage protection works. If the system worked the way it was described to the court, then first-time users, who would not have the proper registry keys, should not be able to use Coupons.com because they would be blocked from accessing coupons. But Coupons.com doesn't do that to new users -- all users without registry keys are simply given new keys (and not blocked whatsoever).
Basically, Coupons.com appears to be pretending that its software doesn't work without a certain registry key in order to convince the judge that its software actually qualifies under the DMCA as copy protection. But, if it were copy protection, then Stottlemire's programs (or written instructions) for how to defeat the software by deleting the registry key wouldn't work. All Stottlemire's method of "circumvention" would do is trigger the copy protection to deny access. So, either Coupons.com is lying to the judge, or Stottlemire's program and instructions couldn't have done what they claim it did (in which case he wouldn't have broken the law). So... basically, it sounds like Coupons.com is either lying or they have no case. And, if they're lying, they don't have much of a case either.
Reader Comments
(Flattened / Threaded)
Fighting over Coupons? You got to be kidding me.
A registry key? Oh geez. I can buy two copies of the newspaper and get two coupons!
This is total bullshit for what may amount to $1.00 off a frozen dinner. Give me a break! Isn't there something better to quarrel about during a recession?
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
Re: Fighting over Coupons? You got to be kidding me.
I've never used the site, however if it were my company I'd be pissed. This isn't a single $1.00 off coupon, who knows how much money is involved. Why do people stupidly make comments without thinking about situations.
If it were your business where you sold some kind of service, wouldn't you be pissed off at all at the potential of losing money?
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
Re: Re: Fighting over Coupons? You got to be kidding me.
"This isn't a single $1.00 off coupon, who knows how much money is involved. Why do people stupidly make comments without thinking about situations.If it were your business where you sold some kind of service, wouldn't you be pissed off at all at the potential of losing money?"
errrr, maybe i mistunderstand your post, but the point of coupons is to drive business, doof. you cant just string together 10 $1-off coupons and get a $10 item for free - the business makes the $9 based on the premise that MORE people buying at $9 is better for them than less people buiying at $10 (for a limited time).
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
Re: Re: Fighting over Coupons? You got to be kidding me.
I've never used the site, however if it were my company I'd be pissed. This isn't a single $1.00 off coupon, who knows how much money is involved. Why do people stupidly make comments without thinking about situations.
You're complaining about the morality of printing out multiple coupons. That article is pointing out that, regardless of morality, the guy didn't break any law in disclosing the information.
If this was your company, you should be pissed. The company released deficient code that doesn't properly lock the customer in as intended. In other words, it's the company's fault, not a consumer's. Covering up bad programming with legislation is a complete misuse of the law.
You might believe the guy is morally wrong, but being morally wrong isn't necessarily against the law.
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
Yeaah Streisand Redux
This is a perfect example of the Streisand effect. I am an occasional user of coupons.com, and it never would have crossed my mind to tamper with my Windows registry key so that I could print out more than one internet coupon.
There have been times when the printer malfunctions, but coupons.com, in their infinite wisdom, won't let me reprint the coupon that didn't print the first time. Their customer service is no help either. Sorry, Charlie. You don't get bread with one meatball.
Now I know the secret. Thanks a million, coupons.com.
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
People still use Coupons.com?
None of the grocery stores around me will accept coupons from Coupons.com. They always say they have a policy against accepting "Internet coupons". So the times I have tried, it's been a waste of my time and paper.
Regardless of that, wouldn't it be easier to just take a screenshot of the coupon and print THAT multiple times, rather than messing with the registry?
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
Re: People still use Coupons.com?
I was told the same thing at a Ralphs Market (a Southwest grocery store chain owned by Kroger) by a clerk. I emailed Kroger customer service after a friend pointed out to me that there's a coupons.com link on the Ralphs market own website.
The response I received was polite and to the point, and I printed it out (I'm such a geek) so I could carry it with my coupons. I was told that at least as far as Kroger stores, internet coupons are accepted. The only thing they won't accept are printed out coupons for free products, which is understandable, because of the potential for fraud.
If you feel sufficiently motivated, you might email customer service or call corporate HQ for the last store that gave you the problem. It was worth it to me to spend the extra few minutes, as my family relies on coupons, and really, I wouldn't hack coupons.com registry just to print out extra. It's just hilarious that now I know how to do it, thanks to their bonehead lawsuit.
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
Save the page
It's just rendered html right? Just save the html page and print it natively.
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
Or just print to PDF
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
Staying on subject
The entry by Mike is about a company who is suing a guy who does not have an attorney but has successfully had the claims against him dismissed twice thus far.
In response, the company makes false and misleading statements in the latest complaint they filed with the court.
Forget for a moment that its about coupons and ask yourself, "Why is the company so desperate that they have to lie to advance their claim against a pro se litigant?" Is their case that weak?
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
Re:
That was what I meant to say, it was a typo. I meant my computer registry.
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
How is it that this has even gotten to court in the first place? They are not the sole carriers of these coupons. I can get the same exact ones from others sites such as smartsource.com.
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
coupons.com
I'll be the first to admit, I am not very computer literate, but, why can't you just print out copies of the coupons you just printed?
I know you're probably all LOL!
Lacey
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
You can't print to a PDF machine, an all-in-one or anything else that can grab the prnt stream. There never is an image of the coupon until it pops out of your pritner.
Frankly, no one cares if YOU print out an extra copy and go buy an extra can of peas. It is about RETAILER fraud. The retailer gets reimbursed the face value plus a handling fee. Without protection they could cheat, print out hundreds or thousands of extra coupons and turn them in for the cash.
That is also the point of the unique bar codes. If a cheating retailer made 100's of photocopies they would be detected and civil/criminal action could ensue.
If the security is compromosed then the brands would no longer participate and that's the end of the business.
THAT is why this is a big deal to them.
Oh and FYI - Most stores DO have printable coupons (from a different company, but same concept) on their websites, meaning most DO accept them. But sometimes the cashiers are clueless.
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
Re: #12
You're wrong... pdf995.com, has a FREE (w/html ads) PDF printer.. very nice. The screen shot idea should work very nicely, too... just use some image editing software and cut off the edges.
Anyone against this (unless the coupons are for FREE products) is probably a shill for coupons.com
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
Re: Re: #12
The coupon never shows on the screen and although it does not detect 100% of image printers the "technology measure" checks to see if you are attempting to print as a PDF file. If you are, they do not allow you to print the coupon. Again, this is not 100% effective as there are some pdf printers that they are not testing for.
And trust me, I'm not a shill for coupons.com.
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
Re: Re: Re: #12
You also are not tech savvy enough to know how to defeat the limitation.
Trust me, PDFs can capture anything, if you know how it's done.
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
Re: Re: Re: Re: #12
Hi Dumbass,
The coupon is NEVER DISPLAYED on-screen. There is no way for Adobe to intercept a 3rd party application that prints directly to your PRINTER without ever providing the option to print to PDF.
Try the program before you open your mouth.
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: #12
Hello Bigger Dumbass,
Perhaps you should learn a little about how software works. The software is not printing directly to your printer, hence the need for computers to have printer drivers.
K thx, go back to ur cave.
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
Re: Preventing multiple prints for a coupon
So, is there any way to prevent people from printing a coupon multiple times?
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
...not to mention that the coupons are free--why steal something that's free? you get two of each coupon for goodness sake, leave some for the rest of the folks out there trying to make ends meet. companies don't issue an unlimited amount of coupons, they'd just drop the price if that was their goal. sheesh
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
Note also that the coupons have two or three serial numbers on them, so even if you could print to PDF it wouldn't do you much good, because any decent store scanning system would flag it as used. And if they didn't catch it at the point of sale, they'd catch it later and possibly just decide to discontinue accepting such coupons in the future.
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
So?
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
An update.
I've filed a motion for an extension of time with the Court so I could address this issue. I fully intend on filing a Motion for Sanctions Pursuant to Rule 11 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.
Hoepfully, they won't get away with this.
-john
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
Re: An update.
Good luck with your case.
I'm really curious what kind of idiot programmers wrote the software for this company. Didn't anyone happen to think "What if they just delete the registry key?" Seriously, it could hardly be more obvious to anyone who understands how their system works, it seems like it is either the fault of the project manager or the engineers who designed the system that it's broken, not the fault of the person who was able to get around it. When was the last time the DMCA actually did ANYTHING good?
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
Oh, now that's just plain weird.
Pwn-a-tort Contest
Make a DCMA case:
Someone borrowed a cup of milk from me and never paid me back.
One, two, three,... Go!
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
coupon printer workaround. So sue me.
Even the latest software blocks printing to a pdf fake printer. I lost too many coupons due to my printer not working. So having a pdf copy ensures me I will not loose the coupon. I found a work around to the latest pdf-blocking software. Stall the print job by printing with the printer off or not ready. Go to c:windowssystem32spool and copy the print job to a safe place. Open the spooler from the systray and cancel the job. Open the spooler file with a viewer the supports the format. I downloaded "O&K Printer Viewer" for this. Print it to my pdf fake printer driver. Done.
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
Re: coupon printer workaround. So sue me.
Thanks jm it took a while for me to go through this situation. This will work perfect... We don't have a printer at home and our work is cool with us printing out little stuff like this at work. Now... just to setup a run in outlook to print from email.... YAY!
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
Coupons.com are not being open or honest about how their software works. The software collects unique identifiers from your computer to build up a serial number which is then placed on the coupon. This serial can then be verified as being valid on their website by anyone. Their policies are not clear to the end user what it is the software actually does. Hence there are privacy concerns as the data collected can be used to identify individual computers.
Further the software does not fully uninstall and leaves various registry keys/files behind. The names of which are made to look like legitimate windows registry keys/files, hence coupons.com are deliberately making it hard to find and remove them manually.
What coupons.com are doing is simply bad practice (there are better ways) and when someone rightly shouts about it or does something about it they try to lie and sue. Not a nice company.
This software shouldn't be carrying the Truste, Verisign etc logos!
More info: http://www.benedelman.org/news/082807-1.html
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
Coupons ROCK!
Who needs coupons.com!!??
I like http://couponsearcher.blogspot.com. What I do is use that site to search for everything I want to buy before I go shopping and it saves me tons of money. Can’t beat that!
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
Thanks jm it took a while for me to go through this situation
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
Thanks
http://www.h22h.com
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
Check out this article: http://www.benedelman.org/news/082807-1.html
(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
Add Your Comment