H-1Bs Run Out Almost Immediately Yet Again
from the april-fools dept
Just like last year, and as pretty much everyone expected, US immigration officials note that they've received tons of applications for H-1B visas -- way more than the 65,000 allowed by Congress, just in the first day of eligibility. That means that they'll switch to a lottery system and, once again, plenty of highly skilled technology talent will be working for foreign competitors rather than US companies. It's truly a shame that so many people in this country seem to incorrectly think that jobs are a zero-sum game. Bringing more highly skilled workers into this country helps create more jobs. The idea that allowing workers into the country decreases jobs here (or even decreases wages) is simply incorrect. Those workers still exist and will still compete with you for jobs -- it's just that they'll be doing it in other countries where they can undercut you even further and put even more pressure on your own company to close up shop. Not allowing skilled workers into this country is a much bigger risk for American jobs than letting them in.
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I think the opposite-- We deserve it for not investing in education, buddy.
Theme Song to this post: "Shave and a haircut- Two bits"
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It's a myth to believe that the majority of H1B workers are
highly skilled. India has special schools set up to give people just enough training to pass the 'sniff test' (or 'moron in a hurry'), and then they go work for big consulting firms that farm them out to unsuspecting clients.
I've never heard of a highly skilled H1B worker on the East Coast working in the finance industry. The West Coast does have plenty of real H1B talent.
But, the vast majority of visas *are* given to people who are cheaper than US workers.
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Re:
But, the vast majority of visas *are* given to people who are cheaper than US workers.
I am not sure about that. I think it's still an issue of supply vs. demand. Schools should be teaching more tech skills.
I think we're really doing a disservice to the next generation in that area by essentially importing skill sets instead of trying to grow the skill sets within the schools. But there have been some great inroads and fascinating success stories-- "High Tech High" is a concept high school in Los Angeles that has had good success with a tech-based curriculum, and also aligns nicely with the "Strong American School" program. Eric Schmidt also recently took notice and hosted an insightful discussion about the changes education needs to be cognizant of in a
wired world.
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Re:
My wife and I are highly skilled British workers (me in IT and my Wife in Microbiology). We chose to emigrate to Australia over the US because of this short-sighted, protectionist attitude. Australia has a points system that allows anyone in if they meet the point's target, dependant on their profession. The points awarded to each industry and profession is varied according to the economic demand.
http://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/general-skilled-migration/index.htm
Trying to plan a move to the States wasn't worth the hassle of waiting for a 'lottery' visa application.
I now earn more than many Australians because they have jobs that need done and not enough people to do them. This is partly to a fast growing economy (no recession here) and an aging population where people are retiring.
There is a healthy demand for skilled workers here and employers do try to train young locals but they still aren't able to recruit all the staff they need locally.
Only allowing skilled workers over non-skilled workers does however have a drawback with many vacancies in unskilled areas not being filled.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/the-new-drought-151-workers/2008/03/24/12062070123 76.html
A healthy balance is needed between skilled and unskilled workers if an economy is to grow and if you limit workers when they are needed, skilled or unskilled then you risk your Countries growth.
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It's hard to know who to believe
Mike, you keep saying that the H1B visas don't displace American workers. I also keep reading articles that detail many cases of people being forced to train their replacements, who are H1B holders, then being laid off. And articles about engineers with quite respectable skillsets not being able to find jobs, and they blame it on employers who are relying on low-cost H1B workers. And articles about salary surveys that document H1B workers' pay as substantially below industry averages.
It certainly makes sense that if we need more skilled people than are present in this country, we should, at least in the short term, allow in as many as needed to fill the empty slots, and in the long-term, train more Americans in those skills. But it sure sounds to me as if a lot of the people being brought in are displacing American workers. How can I tell whether what I'm reading is just the result of misunderstanding or propaganda, or is true documentation of exploitation of cheap, foreign guest workers to lower American company costs at the expense of local workers?
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Michael (who posted this article and his commentary here) is full of shit.
If high paying tech jobs that these H1Bs are applying for in America are so readily available outside of the United States, then why are they in such a massive rush to apply for the jobs in the US *in the first place*?!
I'm really tired of these apologists coming up with any excuse to justify selling out the American worker. I have nothing against anyone anywhere trying to get the best job they can acquire. I DO have a major problem with corporations that are using "there's no talent in America" as a cover for "there's no talent in America THAT WE ARE WILLING TO PAY".
Why should the mega-corporation get to select the cheapest labor from a GLOBAL pool of resources, while the worker doesn't get the same choice for THEIR services and goods? I'm sorry if I demand six figures for my job rather than $20k/yr, but I also don't have the option of bypassing my $4/gal milk in the US for a nickel a gallon milk somewhere overseas.
It is all a scam to find the cheapest suitable labor in the global pool by rigging the game. It's very interesting how people like Michael and CEOs tout how fantastic capitalism is and supply and demand is . . . until supply and demand is no longer in their favor.
If your product is in short supply, I have to pay more for it. If labor is in short supply, YOU should have to pay more for the labor. Not just import a bunch of it as a big "screw you" to local labor.
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Why is the tech industry so special? In every other industry, a lack of skilled workers results in companies paying HIGHER SALARIES to draw those skilled workers in. That causes people to flood schools seeking education for those areas so that they can graduate and fill the industry needs, eventually resulting in a somewhat lower salary overall, because the demand and supply are more even. THAT is capitalism. THAT is how it has always been.
But somehow when it comes to the tech industry, the answer isn't related to supply and demand. When it comes to the tech industry, they artificially bend supply and demand to the corporate side's favor by importing extra supply.
The guy above who says that he moved to AUS instead of the US because of our "protectionism" (what the hell are you talking about? the problem is a LACK of protectionism) has some deeply flawed logic. If he moved to the US, he wouldn't keep that fantastic salary he's getting in AUS right now, because he would be competing with the flood of imported labor.
Also, it doesn't matter how much imported labor is being paid in relation to local labor. The fact is that they may both be paid the same (but I doubt it). However, if the labor wasn't imported, then the local labor salaries WOULD HAVE TO INCREASE because of the lack of supply compared to the demand. So even if they're getting paid the same, they are impacting us by avoiding an INCREASE in our salaries.
If supply and demand economics is good enough for corporations, it should be good enough for me. But they want to fuck me in the ass with it when it suits them and shrug it off with bullshit workarounds like H1Bs and the lies that "there's no skilled labor here!" when it doesn't suit them and, instead, favors the worker.
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Live and work in the USA
fascinating success stories
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GOOD! I care more about the skilled AMERICAN then those from obroad, What is a shame that some here think otherwise.
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Re:
I've never heard of a highly skilled H1B worker on the East Coast working in the finance industry.
Hmm. JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers, Merrill Lynch, Bloomberg, Morgan Stanley, Credit Suisse... are all listed in the top 100 recipients of H-1B visas.
So, yes, they do work on the east coast in the finance industry.
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Re:
My 2 cents:
'If your product is in short supply, I have to pay more for it. If labor is in short supply, YOU should have to pay more for the labor. Not just import a bunch of it as a big "screw you" to local labor.'
Are you implying that US should stop importing more oil from other countries and use its own resources (however scarce they are or use strategic oil reserves to meet the demand), raise the price to $20/gallon etc. etc. ? Shall we implement the same model to ALL commodities US is currently importing including Japanese cars, Chinese furniture and almost every other thing.
And US shall also 'flourish' their own people and economy and stop setting up Intel, Dell, Microsoft, IBM, Honeywell and other factories in China and India etc.
My friend, I know it hurts when someone from outside comes and takes your place. But one should also realize that there must be some business/logical reason why this is happening. May be the local resource is too costly, may be it is not efficient, may it is not available and so on and so forth.
Take it easy.
Best regards.
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Re: It's hard to know who to believe
Mike, you keep saying that the H1B visas don't displace American workers. I also keep reading articles that detail many cases of people being forced to train their replacements, who are H1B holders, then being laid off.
First off, that would be an obvious and egregious abuse of the system, and anyone in such a situation should file a complaint.
I've heard such stories with offshoring, but not with H1B. I don't deny that it happens (I'm sure it does), but I doubt that it's particularly common.
But, more to the point, this doesn't mean that "everybody gets to keep their current jobs." There's NO system that guarantees that. Most of the complaining people are ones who hoped to just sit and keep their jobs forever. That's not how the world works. But, it's undeniable that bringing in more skilled workers creates more jobs in the long run. It may increase churn in the short term, but at a long term advantage.
And articles about engineers with quite respectable skillsets not being able to find jobs, and they blame it on employers who are relying on low-cost H1B workers.
Again, people who lose their jobs like to blame it on all sorts of things, but anecdotal stories do little to prove things. Right now in CA it's nearly impossible to hire a skilled engineer. It may be a different story in other locations, but either way, the point these out of work engineers are making is flat out wrong.
If these same highly skilled individuals go back to their home countries, and these same companies *offshore* the jobs to them in those foreign countries, the same workers are still out of work. Or, if those same folks go back to their home countries and work for local companies that completely undercut the American company, such that it needs to lay people off, how are the American workers better off?
It's simple. They are not.
The folks who complain about H-1Bs are pretending we live in a world that we don't. They're pretending that a worker who is in another country isn't competing against them, when he is. They're pretending that the number of jobs is a zero sum game, and having more skilled workers doesn't lead to more jobs.
They're wrong.
And articles about salary surveys that document H1B workers' pay as substantially below industry averages.
Again, that's an abuse of the system. The H-1B rules are clear that they need to pay a prevailing wage. I recognize that many firms do not abide, but then let's get rid of the abuse, not the whole system.
It certainly makes sense that if we need more skilled people than are present in this country, we should, at least in the short term, allow in as many as needed to fill the empty slots, and in the long-term, train more Americans in those skills.
Again, you assume a zero sum game. That there's some permanent number of "jobs" in the US. That's simply not true. If you can bring in a skilled worker who will create an innovation that will lead to 100,000 new jobs, do you not let him into the country because he would take the job of one American who would not create that innovation?
How can I tell whether what I'm reading is just the result of misunderstanding or propaganda, or is true documentation of exploitation of cheap, foreign guest workers to lower American company costs at the expense of local workers?
Again, the H-1B is not supposed to be about cheap labor (and, yes, again, I know that it's often abused otherwise -- but it's not as widespread as H-1B haters make it out to be).
And the way to understand what's real is to simply look at the history of any country that lets in skilled workers, and see what it does to their overall industrial output and jobs numbers.
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Re:
Michael (who posted this article and his commentary here) is full of shit.
Thank you for resorting to insults. It makes it clear that you have a strong argument.
If high paying tech jobs that these H1Bs are applying for in America are so readily available outside of the United States, then why are they in such a massive rush to apply for the jobs in the US *in the first place*?!
I didn't say that the jobs in their home countries were as high paying. So, let's knock out that strawman.
I don't deny that the jobs here pay better, but that doesn't change the point.
I'm really tired of these apologists coming up with any excuse to justify selling out the American worker.
Again, how is creating more jobs selling out the American worker? How is increasing innovation and growing the economy selling out the American worker?
Do you really think that when you send these folks back to their home countries they're not still competing? Do you really think that if they go back to their home country it doesn't impact jobs here?
You are incorrect if you do.
It is all a scam to find the cheapest suitable labor in the global pool by rigging the game. It's very interesting how people like Michael and CEOs tout how fantastic capitalism is and supply and demand is . . . until supply and demand is no longer in their favor.
Where have I ever complained about supply and demand not being in my favor? The only complaint here is that the American gov't is LIMITING natural supply. It's protectionism, not capitalism.
If your product is in short supply, I have to pay more for it. If labor is in short supply, YOU should have to pay more for the labor. Not just import a bunch of it as a big "screw you" to local labor.
First of all, take a look at salary data for engineers. Salaries keep going up. So, it's a total strawman to claim that this is about lowering wages.
That said, can you explain what happens when these folks go back to their home countries and start competing against you and put your company out of business? Then how does that help your job? How does that help the American economy?
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Re: by Business Sense
I hope they take your job next - Fawktard!
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This article is WACK! This world is not about $$, its about people - until WE get that as human beings, we will continue to kill everything around us - Truth be known, The human race is a virus that needs to be cured. As far as bringing in outside labor creating jobs here, Uhhh, have you been watching the news or just your articles? 70,000 jobs lost in Jan, another 70,000 lost in Feb and 80,000 lost in March - I am not seeing more jobs here, Im seeing less. DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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http://money.cnn.com/2008/04/04/news/economy/jobs_march/index.htm?section=money_topstories
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Re:
Uhhh, have you been watching the news or just your articles? 70,000 jobs lost in Jan, another 70,000 lost in Feb and 80,000 lost in March - I am not seeing more jobs here, Im seeing less. DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yup. Now don't you wish some of those folks creating jobs in foreign countries were working here helping to create more jobs in the US?
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Mike, I've personally got mixed thoughts about the H1-B system (I've personally worked with a few people who definitely deserved to work wherever they damned well please and people who certainly did not), but I don't understand why you are so far in favor of it if you acknowledge that it has serious flaws?
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Strange Coincidence
"by Anonymous Coward on Apr 9th, 2008 @ 12:38am
Why is the tech industry so special? In every other industry, a lack of skilled workers results in companies paying HIGHER SALARIES to draw those skilled workers in. That causes people to flood schools seeking education for those areas so that they can graduate and fill the industry needs, eventually resulting in a somewhat lower salary overall, because the demand and supply are more even. THAT is capitalism. THAT is how it has always been."
Anonymous has hit the issue dead on. Isn't it amazing how Mike Masnick consistently is pushing big tech's agenda, patent deform & H1B? A really strange coincidence.
Ronald J. Riley,
Speaking only on my own behalf.
Affiliations:
President - www.PIAUSA.org - RJR at PIAUSA.org
Executive Director - www.InventorEd.org - RJR at InvEd.org
Senior Fellow - www.patentPolicy.org
President - Alliance for American Innovation
Caretaker of Intellectual Property Creators on behalf of deceased founder Paul Heckel
Washington, DC
Direct (202) 318-1595 - 9 am to 9 pm EST.
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Re: by Mike on Apr 9th, 2008 @ 3:01am
No, I wish they would take their job stealing asses back where they came from so we can have our own damn jobs . DONE and DONE!
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Re: Re:
Mike,
You misunderstood me. I didn't say I've never heard of anyone working in the finance industry who has an H1B, I just said that I've never heard of anyone who was highly skilled.
There's a subtle difference: in the finance industry, they are all trained at special schools in India, just sufficiently enough to pass the 'sniff test' and able to spout the proper set of TLAs. They generally have no experience and couldn't code their way out of a high school programming constest.
I work in San Jose / Palo Alto and have seen my fair share of incompetence through the H1B system -- and most of these people are hired as warm bodies to fill expansion slots, but they have generally low qualifications and salary.
However, as contrary evidence that supports your theory, over the last 12 years I've seen a dramatic shift in the type of resumes that are received. 12 years ago, at a famous tools developer we were told that all resumes must go to HR because there were questions being raised about why the company was all young white males. Very low diversity. But, that was because of the resumes received. (Most of those people were not qualified either, but they were home grown).
Now, most of the resumes which I see are either of people from the Indian subcontinent, or from China -- mostly H1B. Very rarely do I see a resume from a native US citizen.
The quality of the resumes has not improved, but the asking wage has most certainly dropped.
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Re: Re:
> First of all, take a look at salary data for engineers.
> Salaries keep going up. So, it's a total strawman to
> claim that this is about lowering wages.
2% wage increases average are not 'going up'. They are pay cuts. If there wasn't an artificially created pool of cheap labor to fill in, then the wages would go up even more: supply and demand. When wages are going up less than the cost of living increases, then you don't have a shortage.
If there is no shortage AND you are importing workers...
how can you claim honestly that there is a shortage?
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Re: Re:
> Yup. Now don't you wish some of those folks creating jobs
> in foreign countries were working here helping to create
> more jobs in the US?
What? In a job losing economy, you want more cheap labor to create jobs? That just doesn't bear up with reality.
Take a look at the devastating impact illegal workers have caused in the construction industry (particularly in the southeast). Wages have dropped. Now you've got unskilled Mongolian hordes building houses for 1/2 the price of the citizens. How is this a good thing? Where do the laid-off workers go to get a job in a shrinking economy if they have to compete with lower-waged immigrants, legal and illegal?
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HELP WANTED: Individuals willing to bring down the money grubbing corps that are killing life on Earth!
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Re: Strange Coincidence
As has been noted, the limited number of H-1B visas is putting an unnatural restriction on the supply of skilled workers. Such a restriction might in the short-term drive up local demand and thus present American tech workers with higher salaries, but it is an artificial bubble. It would drive up the costs for American companies relative to their foreign competitors (who are free to draw from the full supply of tech workers). When the foreign companies then cut their expenses and lower costs to their clients, the bubble will burst, American companies will go out of business, and American jobs will be lost.
Drawing from the global supply may lower salaries but only because that's the natural state of the supply/demand dynamic.
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Wake up and smell your BS! We need more people in the USA working, and this BS that this visa crap is a good thing is just that BS!!!
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Re: Strange Coincidence
Why is the tech industry so special?
It is not special - it is just that you can find IT guys outside of US more easily. And also, that 'generally' it is not a threat to national security hiring non-US professionals for the job.
It is difficult to find Aerospace engineers or Nuclear scientists out of US especially in the context that these are usually highly classified jobs.
Other skill sets of civil and mechanical engineers are also not that easy to grab since it requires quite some facilities at universities which all foreign students cannot afford to get - means they are not 'that' qualified in the first place. Whereas, software engineering does not require sophisticated lab equipment so they are in abundance.
Having said that, there are still people working on H1B in automobile industries and others (go to any hospital and you will know that it is correct).
@Anonymous Coward: Instead of using filthy language, bring out arguments objectively. We are sharing our thoughts and experiences which vary from individual to individual. And yes, I am sure the day my company finds a better fit (either a cheaper guy who can do my job or is more efficient and can produce better results for the same cost), they will replace me. It is always 'survival of the fittest' in this cut-throat market.
Peace.
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Re:
I've never heard of a highly skilled H1B worker on the East Coast working in the finance industry.
1) There are quite a few. Lurking in the Math Wiz basements of moajor banks. Probably you never been to that part of the building, though.
2) Try to get to business school (I mean, try to get a loan) without permanent residentship, and you'll know why you don't see H1B's above the surface much. Although it's changing right now.
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if a H1 worker dun perform higher than US worker they will be out of a job with no disability payments.. so sniff tests are offset my moron who get kicked out
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US Workers Over-priced.
SomeGuy got it right.
What US workers do not seem to understand is that they are not "special" like they were 50 years ago. Now, they have to compete with the world and don't seem prepared to do so. They want to maintain their high wages and yet at the same time do not understand that their company will go under if they do so.
Time for a US worker wake up call ... it's a flat world and you now have to compete globally. If there are lower wages in a foreign country that has lower costs and can sell at lower prices, they will undercut and knock you out of business. Better to bring in foreign skilled workers for a partial lowering of salaries than a complete loss of your existing ones.
US worker (anonymous cowards), close your eyes and live in the past, but understand that this is just a part of the sinking high US living standards ... plus it will continue to get worse.
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In the long run things will even out. Off shore salaries are going up, the dollar is going down. I don't mind them making more money even if I'm not happy about the pressure on domestic salaries.
In the short term there is plenty of fraud. H1B and illegal unskilled workers are supported by execs that are willing to bend or break the law to make their numbers and their stock options, even while they shift the cost to the tax payer.
Wonder why kids in the US don't want to go into tech? They watched the older folks get boned and figured they would be better off as investment bankers, lawyers and dentists, much harder to get offshored.
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Reality Check
I hear a lot of 'theory' here about how immigrant labor is being used. I have a practical quote from a friend of mine that works at M$:
"Yeah, and you should see the people we recruit from communist countries... talk about taking a pounding over the head without complaining about anything. Now that the golden handcuffs of the internet stock options age are gone we've resorted to the green handcuffs and cultural handcuffs. When we get foreigners they won't complain about much and can't move jobs even within the same company if it changes job description without delaying their green cards. Therefore it keeps salaries down artificially if you ask me. And then with the people we get from Russia, Ukraine, Romania, etc. they will gladly be exploited without any complaint whatsoever... they are paranoid that anything they say will be used against them by everybody being big brother. You need to hire your own folks for your own company and be the exploiter... we're old enough now to look the part if we can keep a poker face."
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Re: Re: It's hard to know who to believe
I think Mike's getting BJ's from an H1B holder.
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idiotas
Just go to dice.com discussion board and read some real stories of real people
some nice read for fresh CS grads
right now anything IT/tech related is a dump with no future for any american (except for the likes of Billy Gates of MShit or Mike of techdirt)
stay out of IT, folks - you will be glad you did when you approach your forties
Better be a unionized plumber - at least they don't import cheap plumbers from India (so far...)
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Re: Re: It's hard to know who to believe
Mike,
Very well put. I'd like to highlight that the majority of the venom spit against the H1B visa program is done by the likes of Lou Dobbs, Fox News, etc... These "journalists" drown their audience in nothing but anecdotal, tear-jerking stories about down-and-out "americans" and tout nonsensical statistics typically without context or stating sources.
Those who question the benefit of the H1B visa program because of "what they read and hear" really ought to take a good hard look at what they "read and hear" Look beyond the eye-catching, heart-plucking headlines.
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Re: Re: Re: It's hard to know who to believe
Please head back to Slashdot; you are being missed over there.
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Re: Re: Re:
Please point to a credible report showing that there is a large pool of skilled employees across the US that are out of work with no opportunities available to them.
Anecdotes do not count, regardless of how many dozens Lou Dobbs has shown you this year so far.
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mudak
my property tax in NJ is f****** 9,000$ a year
Fir this kind of money I can keep not just one but two skilled programmers employed full time in some other parts of the globe
Do you live in a cardbox and go to free soup kitchen with the rest of the homeless punks ?
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Re:
If you think that 65,000 visa bringing in employees is a "problem", then you truly don't understand the size of the work force in the US. Please define "flood".
...thus making the US company even less competitive and put pressure on that company to send those higher-paying technical jobs ... where? ... to those skilled workers living elsewhere (either via offshoring or by losing business to foreign competitors).
It is good enough for you. And if you only concentrate on the next move in any game, economics included, then you will most certainly lose the game. You are worrying about an "american" losing-this-one-job instead of looking at the implications of keeping-this-one-job.
Instead of throwing back micro-scale points, which Mike has addressed, why not attack his macro-scale points?
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This world is not about $$, its about people If its not about money, why would people object to lower wages? Maybe because it IS about money? maybe? It's just about money for a different group of people. Screw those foreigners. They shouldn't make as much money as WE do, right? because they're foreigners. Truth be known, The human race is a virus that needs to be cured. Yeah, its about people...
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Re: Re: Re:
You are mixing arguments. With hands-on labour such as the housing market, workers and companies have to be in the local region. With IT, it is a very different story as the work can be done anywhere.
That said, I don't agree with the argument that "illegal workers are destroying the construction industry" either. Either the jobs are worth less and so wages should be lower, or the skilled workers are truly far more productive so as to justify the higher wages. If the work can get done at lower wages, why should customers support paying higher prices??
Wal-mart is successful for a reason, the ultimate being that they cater to the customer's desire for lower prices as the foremost priority.
[In fact, I'll retract my statement about construction workers having to be local...housing is moving more and more to pre-fab, meaning outsourcing of more jobs to foreign factories and lowering the skills requirements for installation of these structures. The skilled workers losing their jobs should be looking to innovate (e.g. work with or create construction technologies such as pre-fabs) or they need to change vocations...this is simple economic forces at work.]
Don't shoot the messengers. Point out problems with the economic arguments and we've got a discussion.
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Re:
Great, 80000 jobs lost in March.
Now, what caused that? Was it because of 65000 H1B visas (of which only 1/12 would be attributed to the month of March)?
Or is it because the US is failing to compete with skilled workers living abroad? Who could live and work here in the US, innovating and creating new jobs IN THE US?
Simply pointing at a CNN headline means nothing. The article uses sensationalist language and numbers that scare, but if you actually read the article it boils down to the fact that "this is the worst fall in employment in 5 years".
5 years?? We're freaking out over a change that hasn't been seen in 5 years? This is nothing more than a normal economic cycle at this point.
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US Workforce
"Truth be known, The human race is a virus that needs to be cured."
Good point, and maybe nature is just getting rid of the worst of the virus ... the overpaid US worker with their overuse and exploitation of the world's resources.
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Re: US Workforce
Yeah, right... if things continue to go the way they are going, the "overpriced" middle-class US tech/IT worker (with wife, 2-3 kids in school, a 2-story house in a good school district, couple cars in a driveway etc.) is going to be replaced by Habib managing servers and routers and hacking some code from his little mudhouse in the swamps of India, thanks to broadband internet and cheap 100$ laptops
Hey, check this out, folks: http://www.supportresort.com/
Scary, isn't it ?
3.36 $ per hour, that;s right
Doesn't even buy youi a hamburger in good old USA anymore
maybe just a kids meal
I ma out of this f****** field of tech/IT
It's all f***** up
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Brainwashed souls, so many , as far as the eye can see. American working, Good. Corps want cheaper workers for 1 reason and 1 reason only .... more $$$ for them. This country was created FOR THE PEOPLE!!! Not the Corps! All the brainwashed fools in here that THINK otherwise, We'll see them scratching their ass when $$ means nothen anymore.
Blessed Be my fellow EARTHLINGS, Screw the rest of you brainwashed fools.
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they already do...
", plenty of highly skilled technology talent will be working for foreign competitors rather than US companies." -- the biggest high-tech users of H1-B visas are Indian companies used by American companies to off-shore work.
Yes, we need to raise the cap, but we also need to reform the way H1-Bs work. We should be auctioning off the visas.
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Re: mudak
CS majors from Stanford and Berkeley are getting ~100k salaries this year with near universal employment BEFORE graduating. May be if you weren't such a "mudak" yourself, you wouldn't be complaining so much.
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Re: Strange Coincidence
Anonymous has hit the issue dead on.
Actually, no he hasn't. He's wrong on multiple counts. For instance, in the very next paragraph:
But somehow when it comes to the tech industry, the answer isn't related to supply and demand. When it comes to the tech industry, they artificially bend supply and demand to the corporate side's favor by importing extra supply.
The tech industry does not "artificially bend" the supply and demand principle. Protectionism, which Anonymous favors, places an artificial restriction on the supply of IT workers, which runs counter to the competitive principles of capitalism.
If supply and demand economics is good enough for corporations, it should be good enough for me.
And yet, apparently, it isn't. Anonymous is trying to portray the import of skilled foreign labor as a corruption of supply and demand, when in actuality it is supply and demand in action.
Isn't it amazing how R.J. Riley consistently makes unsupported and incorrect statements and insinuates corporate affiliation despite reality?
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I don't understand my own industry
I'm a programmer who's lucky enough to have a job right now. Last time the H1B subject arose on Techdirt, I knew half a dozen competent programmers who were looking for work. Now, a few months later, I know nearly a dozen. And yet my manager and the head of HR at my office still moan about "how hard it is to find programmers these days."
Seriously, what's going on? I see stories about the desperate need for foreign programming talent in the U.S., and yet I know so many guys who are desperate for work, know their subjects well, have years of experience, and don't even want all that much in terms of salary.
I don't have anything against competent programmers coming to the U.S. to work. I just can't understand why management has the perception that there aren't any local people to do these jobs. Hell, I can't even convince management at my office that there are plenty of good local programmers out there who need jobs.
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49
Cause they want to hire much cheaper workers!
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Re: Re: mudak
I really have nothing to complain about at the moment, punk
As Bill Clinton once said: I feel your pain (I mean the pain of older out of work tech workers who are no longer wanted by corporations)
Also I am disgusted to read all the moronic comments here:
"CS majors from Stanford and Berkeley are getting ~100k salaries this year with near universal employment BEFORE graduating"
Which planet are you from, dork ?
you mean that Stanford and berkley CS class of 2008 is going to be universally employed at 100k ?
hey, Stanford/Berkeley seniors, there is a lying piece of shit called dorpas here
kick him in the butt (unless he can show you those jobs waiting for you)
reality check: most of those CS graduates are going to have an EXTREMELY difficult time getting any jobs in IT simply because entry-level jobs don't exists anymore in IT
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ok....I can admit when Im down. You even stated about knowing workers willing to work for less, and even I have to admit that I don't exactly want all that much. So, Your question is still rather valid, I'll go to bed.
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Re: Re: Strange Coincidence
Are you a second reincarnatrion of Mike ?
His know-all-butt side ?
What are your credentials to attack Mr. Riley ?
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Angry Dude needs no credentials, He tells it like he sees it, if you don't see it, you might want to open your eyes
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Re: Re: Re: Strange Coincidence
I'm still unclear what place credentials have here. I mean, nevermind that none of Ron's credentials are from any firm or company I've ever heard of, the fact is he rarely does more than say, "I have credentials, so I must be right." He doesn't point out flaws in arguments, he doesn't address issues that are pointed out to him, and *if* he responds to a comment it's usually just to hand-wave and make ad hominem attacks on people who disagree with him.
I don't care if you're a homeless highschool drop-out, if you make compelling points that are pertinent to the discussion, you're adding something. And if the only 'hole' your opposition can find in your arguments is the uneducated homeless source, then you're argument stands regardless of it's source.
Sorry, AD, I don't mean to actually engage you: I'm pretty sure you don't care. Just an irritation that's been growing since Ron showed up.
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Re: Re: Re: Strange Coincidence
I can certainly understand your standing up for R.J. Riley, since he basically spews out the same nonsense as you (albeit with a decidedly better vocabulary).
What are your credentials to attack Mr. Riley ?
Why would I need credentials to point out the Mr. Riley doesn't know what he's talking about? The primary credentials that Riley lists at the end of his "only me" posts are self-granted, which hardly makes them significant.
I do find it amusing that you try to break it down to a "my credentials" vs. "his credentials" argument rather than actually dealing with the topic at hand. Actually, it's eerily reminiscent of Riley's attempts at discussion. You must be proud.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Strange Coincidence
Ron made a valid observation that on ALL important issues (be it patent "deform" or H1-B visas) Mike of techdirt ALWAYS sides with the BIGGEST tech multinational corporations...
Why is that ?
The universal answer is this: follow the money, always follow the money...
The true honest journalism doesn't exists anymore - everybody is someone's pimp
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See? Not a word about credentials. I waste my breath.
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There's a case to be made for giving preference to local sources of employees wherever possible, especially if migrant workers are being fleeced into accepting inadequate pay deals or dangerous working conditions. But ultimately, we can only ask businesses to comply with the law; if the local education system cannot supply enough people with the correct qualifications, that is the government's problem. This is precisely the situation that my home country is in; the current government decided to aim to have 50% of all school-leavers embark on a college education without bothering to find out if the job market actually needed that many college graduates, over-centralisation and an obsession with statistics is choking secondary education, and the apprenticeship system has been FUBAR since the seventies with no remedial efforts in sight.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Strange Coincidence
I'm sorry...I was actually more concerned with discussing the post's topic than with the throwaway jab at the end. My response to that was equally irrelevant to the topic. That being said, it's hardly surprising that you've only concerned yourself with material that doesn't matter to the subject at hand.
Mike of techdirt ALWAYS sides with the BIGGEST tech multinational corporations
Except when he doesn't.
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Re: Re: Strange Coincidence
Well, that will happen if you've decided not to do something about it. You have a few choices, but from your statement it seems that you are choosing the "wait and pray" approach.
Personally, I'm working hard to find someone to do my job myself. The best way to get ahead in a corporate world is to find your own replacement and manage them (i.e. push yourself up the ladder).
Looking for an open slot above you is being a fish fighting up an ever narrowing stream. Instead prove the benefit of your current position by making it so important that you become way overloaded with work and need someone else to fulfill the role. Your one position becomes a small team, then a department, etc... Look for opportunities for your department to grow its responsibilities.
Market leaders don't become such by by waiting for other businesses to leave town first. They moved in, seize opportunities by gaps left in the current service providers and/or capitalizing on their shortcomings (e.g. over priced, poor customer service, outdated technologies, etc...). They grab new opportunities and take (or win) already serviced opportunities.
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Re:
Did you have an argument to put forward?
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Re: idiotas
So you've found a pool of individuals who have at least two things in common:
- they use dice.com
- they are complaining about not having work
Realize that their circumstances might have nothing at all to do with the state of hiring in the tech industry. It is quite possible that these individuals are simply poor employees.
I've put out a few contracts to these sites, and substantially less than 10% of respondents are worth considering having in a negotiation round.
At our company, we have a serious shortage in IT talent (product managers, developers, senior QA, consultants) and have had open reqs for months. We've turned away TONS of unqualified "IT worker" resumes and have interviewed dozens only selecting about 1/3 of those we interview.
Though we have lots of work to do, we simply cannot afford to bring on dead weight. Just because someone has "Java" or "software testing" on their resume does not make them a good developer, nor a good employee. We need intelligent, team players who can communicate and be responsible to perform their duties. And there are a number of other managers in area companies I know complaining of the same thing.
We aren't looking for people with lots of experience, but we are looking for motivated people with the ability and desire to learn and work within our environment.
If by "unionized" you mean that the employee can get a position and then sit on their laurels simply doing their day-to-day task list, then it doesn't matter what field they get into...they'll eventually get replaced by someone. Even the unions cannot protect stagnant or unproductive employees. Wages increase because with time employees experience and skills improve...not because they've performed the same action time in and time out for some measure of time...though that is not what the typical union leader believes.
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Re: Re: Re: mudak
Hey, perdun.
Here is one link:
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Google-and-Facebook-Gear-Up-for-Battle-over-CS-Grads-77671.sht ml
If Vinnytsia gave you enough comprehension skills, may be you'll understand what they are talking about. And if you were smart enough (not necessary to graduate from Vinnytsia College of Punks, I know), you might have figured out that I am somewhere around those "poor" Stanford/Berkeley seniors you cry about. Of course, being stuck in a communal apartment in Brooklyn probably makes it hard to understand that things can be different in other places.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Strange Coincidence
Are you implying that Mike is somehow getting paid by large corporations to push forward support of the H1B visa program?
I just don't understand what your criticism of points raised in this thread are.
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Re:
angry dude is nothing but a barely educated hypocrite who is stuck being a foul mouthed teenager. He is an immigrant from a small village in former USSR benefiting from this country's acceptance of people like him, yet he complains about this country doing it for people OTHER than him. I guess the boat ride was a bit too harsh on him.
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Re: I don't understand my own industry
Have you brought these out-of-work individuals you know in for an interview? Have you found out why it is that your company, looking for talent, isn't hiring these individuals? Could it be that they don't have the qualifications your company (or all other companies they've interviewed with) are looking for?
Could it be that they aren't all that employable?
Just a thought. You have a job, they don't. Either you are better than they are, or you should be scared for yourself.
I find myself in the same shoes as your manager. Lots of interview candidates, very few with the skills we're looking for (intelligent, motivated, team-oriented...don't care what technology they know, as long as they can learn).
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Re: Re: idiotas
If you were an actual techie (which you are obviously NOT) then you would be able to see the real picture
I did my own research a few months back, not really looking for a job but assessing the current and future perspectives of IT in this country
Boy, was I dissapointed
Only afterwards I went to dice.com to confirm my findings
and suspicions:
Just like I thought: the tech hiring market is dead and still getting worse by the day
The 90% of jobs posted on dice.com are non-jobs, recycled over and over again by the same of different recruting agencies
After nobody local gets hired some H1-B is brought over to work for 15$ an hour (for 60-80 hour week getting paid for only 40 hour week) and to live with 5 other H1-Bs in one-bedroom appartment
You are clearly either a corporate stooge or a brainless techdirt lemming - pick one
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Re: Re: I don't understand my own industry
"Lots of interview candidates, very few with the skills we're looking for (intelligent, motivated, team-oriented...don't care what technology they know, as long as they can learn)."
???????????????????
What ? Just shut the fuck up already
Companies have laundry lists of precise SKILLZ and years of experience required for each shitty position paying like 20$ an hour
When they cann't find 110% match they can hire some H1-B for 12$ and work him to death
Just leave us alone, you, corporate butt-kisser
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Re: Re: Re: Re: mudak
Wonderful information source you cited:
"Microsoft and Yahoo are in this race as well, although numbers about their offers weren’t made public, but you know that they want the fresh minds in order to attempt to overthrow the others. It must be a good feeling to know that the biggest companies on the Internet are all checking you out."
Blya, mudak, ty chto sovsem shuyel ?
Yahoo has recently announced major layoffs.
You farking article is a bit old and quite a bit off
Google is not hiring too
Go masturbate on your school teacher, punk
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Re: Re: idiotas
"We need intelligent, team players who can communicate and be responsible to perform their duties. And there are a number of other managers in area companies I know complaining of the same thing.
We aren't looking for people with lots of experience, but we are looking for motivated people with the ability and desire to learn and work within our environment."
Sounds like you need an H1-B
motivate him with an impressive 12$ hour salary so he can afford to share one-bedroom with other 5 folks like him
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Strange Coincidence
Mike of techdirt ALWAYS sides with the BIGGEST tech multinational corporations...
This is the most hilarious argument used against me, because on half my posts, people accuse me of being a communist trying to take down big companies, and on the other half, I'm accused of being a shill for big companies.
So, angry dude, which is it? When I point out all the ridiculously bad things that big companies do, their failure to understand basic economics, and they way they abuse the political system... who am I working for then?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Strange Coincidence
Mikey, don't use my words out of original context:
"on ALL important issues (be it patent "deform" or H1-B visas) Mike of techdirt ALWAYS sides with the BIGGEST tech multinational corporations"
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Re: Strange Coincidence
Anonymous has hit the issue dead on. Isn't it amazing how Mike Masnick consistently is pushing big tech's agenda, patent deform & H1B? A really strange coincidence.
Ron, you know what's even more amazing? The fact that you are completely wrong on this. I have repeatedly trashed "big techs" agenda on many topics -- including patents (despite the fact that you like to claim otherwise).
As I noted, half the time people accuse me of trying to destroy big businesses, and the other half they accuse me of being a shill. Maybe, just maybe, I simply speak my mind?
Remember, I'm not the one making money off of my positions -- you are.
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