H-1Bs Run Out Almost Immediately Yet Again

from the april-fools dept

Just like last year, and as pretty much everyone expected, US immigration officials note that they've received tons of applications for H-1B visas -- way more than the 65,000 allowed by Congress, just in the first day of eligibility. That means that they'll switch to a lottery system and, once again, plenty of highly skilled technology talent will be working for foreign competitors rather than US companies. It's truly a shame that so many people in this country seem to incorrectly think that jobs are a zero-sum game. Bringing more highly skilled workers into this country helps create more jobs. The idea that allowing workers into the country decreases jobs here (or even decreases wages) is simply incorrect. Those workers still exist and will still compete with you for jobs -- it's just that they'll be doing it in other countries where they can undercut you even further and put even more pressure on your own company to close up shop. Not allowing skilled workers into this country is a much bigger risk for American jobs than letting them in.


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  1.  
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    Iron Chef, Apr 8th, 2008 @ 10:26pm

    I think the opposite-- We deserve it for not investing in education, buddy.

    Theme Song to this post: "Shave and a haircut- Two bits"

     

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  2.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 8th, 2008 @ 10:27pm

    It's a myth to believe that the majority of H1B workers are
    highly skilled. India has special schools set up to give people just enough training to pass the 'sniff test' (or 'moron in a hurry'), and then they go work for big consulting firms that farm them out to unsuspecting clients.

    I've never heard of a highly skilled H1B worker on the East Coast working in the finance industry. The West Coast does have plenty of real H1B talent.

    But, the vast majority of visas *are* given to people who are cheaper than US workers.

     

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    Iron Chef, Apr 8th, 2008 @ 11:10pm

    Re:

    But, the vast majority of visas *are* given to people who are cheaper than US workers.

    I am not sure about that. I think it's still an issue of supply vs. demand. Schools should be teaching more tech skills.

    I think we're really doing a disservice to the next generation in that area by essentially importing skill sets instead of trying to grow the skill sets within the schools. But there have been some great inroads and fascinating success stories-- "High Tech High" is a concept high school in Los Angeles that has had good success with a tech-based curriculum, and also aligns nicely with the "Strong American School" program. Eric Schmidt also recently took notice and hosted an insightful discussion about the changes education needs to be cognizant of in a
    wired world.

     

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    Gary, Apr 8th, 2008 @ 11:35pm

    Re:

    My wife and I are highly skilled British workers (me in IT and my Wife in Microbiology). We chose to emigrate to Australia over the US because of this short-sighted, protectionist attitude. Australia has a points system that allows anyone in if they meet the point's target, dependant on their profession. The points awarded to each industry and profession is varied according to the economic demand.

    http://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/general-skilled-migration/index.htm

    Trying to plan a move to the States wasn't worth the hassle of waiting for a 'lottery' visa application.

    I now earn more than many Australians because they have jobs that need done and not enough people to do them. This is partly to a fast growing economy (no recession here) and an aging population where people are retiring.

    There is a healthy demand for skilled workers here and employers do try to train young locals but they still aren't able to recruit all the staff they need locally.

    Only allowing skilled workers over non-skilled workers does however have a drawback with many vacancies in unskilled areas not being filled.

    http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/the-new-drought-151-workers/2008/03/24/12062070123 76.html

    A healthy balance is needed between skilled and unskilled workers if an economy is to grow and if you limit workers when they are needed, skilled or unskilled then you risk your Countries growth.

     

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    KD, Apr 8th, 2008 @ 11:52pm

    It's hard to know who to believe

    Mike, you keep saying that the H1B visas don't displace American workers. I also keep reading articles that detail many cases of people being forced to train their replacements, who are H1B holders, then being laid off. And articles about engineers with quite respectable skillsets not being able to find jobs, and they blame it on employers who are relying on low-cost H1B workers. And articles about salary surveys that document H1B workers' pay as substantially below industry averages.

    It certainly makes sense that if we need more skilled people than are present in this country, we should, at least in the short term, allow in as many as needed to fill the empty slots, and in the long-term, train more Americans in those skills. But it sure sounds to me as if a lot of the people being brought in are displacing American workers. How can I tell whether what I'm reading is just the result of misunderstanding or propaganda, or is true documentation of exploitation of cheap, foreign guest workers to lower American company costs at the expense of local workers?

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 12:31am

    Michael (who posted this article and his commentary here) is full of shit.

    If high paying tech jobs that these H1Bs are applying for in America are so readily available outside of the United States, then why are they in such a massive rush to apply for the jobs in the US *in the first place*?!

    I'm really tired of these apologists coming up with any excuse to justify selling out the American worker. I have nothing against anyone anywhere trying to get the best job they can acquire. I DO have a major problem with corporations that are using "there's no talent in America" as a cover for "there's no talent in America THAT WE ARE WILLING TO PAY".

    Why should the mega-corporation get to select the cheapest labor from a GLOBAL pool of resources, while the worker doesn't get the same choice for THEIR services and goods? I'm sorry if I demand six figures for my job rather than $20k/yr, but I also don't have the option of bypassing my $4/gal milk in the US for a nickel a gallon milk somewhere overseas.

    It is all a scam to find the cheapest suitable labor in the global pool by rigging the game. It's very interesting how people like Michael and CEOs tout how fantastic capitalism is and supply and demand is . . . until supply and demand is no longer in their favor.

    If your product is in short supply, I have to pay more for it. If labor is in short supply, YOU should have to pay more for the labor. Not just import a bunch of it as a big "screw you" to local labor.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 12:38am

    Why is the tech industry so special? In every other industry, a lack of skilled workers results in companies paying HIGHER SALARIES to draw those skilled workers in. That causes people to flood schools seeking education for those areas so that they can graduate and fill the industry needs, eventually resulting in a somewhat lower salary overall, because the demand and supply are more even. THAT is capitalism. THAT is how it has always been.

    But somehow when it comes to the tech industry, the answer isn't related to supply and demand. When it comes to the tech industry, they artificially bend supply and demand to the corporate side's favor by importing extra supply.

    The guy above who says that he moved to AUS instead of the US because of our "protectionism" (what the hell are you talking about? the problem is a LACK of protectionism) has some deeply flawed logic. If he moved to the US, he wouldn't keep that fantastic salary he's getting in AUS right now, because he would be competing with the flood of imported labor.

    Also, it doesn't matter how much imported labor is being paid in relation to local labor. The fact is that they may both be paid the same (but I doubt it). However, if the labor wasn't imported, then the local labor salaries WOULD HAVE TO INCREASE because of the lack of supply compared to the demand. So even if they're getting paid the same, they are impacting us by avoiding an INCREASE in our salaries.

    If supply and demand economics is good enough for corporations, it should be good enough for me. But they want to fuck me in the ass with it when it suits them and shrug it off with bullshit workarounds like H1Bs and the lies that "there's no skilled labor here!" when it doesn't suit them and, instead, favors the worker.

     

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    ATIG, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 12:56am

    Live and work in the USA

    fascinating success stories

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 12:56am

    GOOD! I care more about the skilled AMERICAN then those from obroad, What is a shame that some here think otherwise.

     

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    Mike (profile), Apr 9th, 2008 @ 2:06am

    Re:

    I've never heard of a highly skilled H1B worker on the East Coast working in the finance industry.

    Hmm. JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers, Merrill Lynch, Bloomberg, Morgan Stanley, Credit Suisse... are all listed in the top 100 recipients of H-1B visas.

    So, yes, they do work on the east coast in the finance industry.

     

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    Business Sense, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 2:14am

    Re:

    My 2 cents:

    'If your product is in short supply, I have to pay more for it. If labor is in short supply, YOU should have to pay more for the labor. Not just import a bunch of it as a big "screw you" to local labor.'

    Are you implying that US should stop importing more oil from other countries and use its own resources (however scarce they are or use strategic oil reserves to meet the demand), raise the price to $20/gallon etc. etc. ? Shall we implement the same model to ALL commodities US is currently importing including Japanese cars, Chinese furniture and almost every other thing.

    And US shall also 'flourish' their own people and economy and stop setting up Intel, Dell, Microsoft, IBM, Honeywell and other factories in China and India etc.

    My friend, I know it hurts when someone from outside comes and takes your place. But one should also realize that there must be some business/logical reason why this is happening. May be the local resource is too costly, may be it is not efficient, may it is not available and so on and so forth.

    Take it easy.

    Best regards.

     

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  12.  
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    Mike (profile), Apr 9th, 2008 @ 2:17am

    Re: It's hard to know who to believe

    Mike, you keep saying that the H1B visas don't displace American workers. I also keep reading articles that detail many cases of people being forced to train their replacements, who are H1B holders, then being laid off.

    First off, that would be an obvious and egregious abuse of the system, and anyone in such a situation should file a complaint.

    I've heard such stories with offshoring, but not with H1B. I don't deny that it happens (I'm sure it does), but I doubt that it's particularly common.

    But, more to the point, this doesn't mean that "everybody gets to keep their current jobs." There's NO system that guarantees that. Most of the complaining people are ones who hoped to just sit and keep their jobs forever. That's not how the world works. But, it's undeniable that bringing in more skilled workers creates more jobs in the long run. It may increase churn in the short term, but at a long term advantage.

    And articles about engineers with quite respectable skillsets not being able to find jobs, and they blame it on employers who are relying on low-cost H1B workers.

    Again, people who lose their jobs like to blame it on all sorts of things, but anecdotal stories do little to prove things. Right now in CA it's nearly impossible to hire a skilled engineer. It may be a different story in other locations, but either way, the point these out of work engineers are making is flat out wrong.

    If these same highly skilled individuals go back to their home countries, and these same companies *offshore* the jobs to them in those foreign countries, the same workers are still out of work. Or, if those same folks go back to their home countries and work for local companies that completely undercut the American company, such that it needs to lay people off, how are the American workers better off?

    It's simple. They are not.

    The folks who complain about H-1Bs are pretending we live in a world that we don't. They're pretending that a worker who is in another country isn't competing against them, when he is. They're pretending that the number of jobs is a zero sum game, and having more skilled workers doesn't lead to more jobs.

    They're wrong.

    And articles about salary surveys that document H1B workers' pay as substantially below industry averages.

    Again, that's an abuse of the system. The H-1B rules are clear that they need to pay a prevailing wage. I recognize that many firms do not abide, but then let's get rid of the abuse, not the whole system.

    It certainly makes sense that if we need more skilled people than are present in this country, we should, at least in the short term, allow in as many as needed to fill the empty slots, and in the long-term, train more Americans in those skills.

    Again, you assume a zero sum game. That there's some permanent number of "jobs" in the US. That's simply not true. If you can bring in a skilled worker who will create an innovation that will lead to 100,000 new jobs, do you not let him into the country because he would take the job of one American who would not create that innovation?

    How can I tell whether what I'm reading is just the result of misunderstanding or propaganda, or is true documentation of exploitation of cheap, foreign guest workers to lower American company costs at the expense of local workers?

    Again, the H-1B is not supposed to be about cheap labor (and, yes, again, I know that it's often abused otherwise -- but it's not as widespread as H-1B haters make it out to be).

    And the way to understand what's real is to simply look at the history of any country that lets in skilled workers, and see what it does to their overall industrial output and jobs numbers.

     

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  13.  
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    Mike (profile), Apr 9th, 2008 @ 2:23am

    Re:

    Michael (who posted this article and his commentary here) is full of shit.

    Thank you for resorting to insults. It makes it clear that you have a strong argument.


    If high paying tech jobs that these H1Bs are applying for in America are so readily available outside of the United States, then why are they in such a massive rush to apply for the jobs in the US *in the first place*?!


    I didn't say that the jobs in their home countries were as high paying. So, let's knock out that strawman.

    I don't deny that the jobs here pay better, but that doesn't change the point.

    I'm really tired of these apologists coming up with any excuse to justify selling out the American worker.

    Again, how is creating more jobs selling out the American worker? How is increasing innovation and growing the economy selling out the American worker?

    Do you really think that when you send these folks back to their home countries they're not still competing? Do you really think that if they go back to their home country it doesn't impact jobs here?

    You are incorrect if you do.

    It is all a scam to find the cheapest suitable labor in the global pool by rigging the game. It's very interesting how people like Michael and CEOs tout how fantastic capitalism is and supply and demand is . . . until supply and demand is no longer in their favor.

    Where have I ever complained about supply and demand not being in my favor? The only complaint here is that the American gov't is LIMITING natural supply. It's protectionism, not capitalism.

    If your product is in short supply, I have to pay more for it. If labor is in short supply, YOU should have to pay more for the labor. Not just import a bunch of it as a big "screw you" to local labor.

    First of all, take a look at salary data for engineers. Salaries keep going up. So, it's a total strawman to claim that this is about lowering wages.

    That said, can you explain what happens when these folks go back to their home countries and start competing against you and put your company out of business? Then how does that help your job? How does that help the American economy?

     

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  14.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 2:43am

    Re: by Business Sense

    I hope they take your job next - Fawktard!

     

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  15.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 2:47am

    This article is WACK! This world is not about $$, its about people - until WE get that as human beings, we will continue to kill everything around us - Truth be known, The human race is a virus that needs to be cured. As far as bringing in outside labor creating jobs here, Uhhh, have you been watching the news or just your articles? 70,000 jobs lost in Jan, another 70,000 lost in Feb and 80,000 lost in March - I am not seeing more jobs here, Im seeing less. DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

     

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    Mike (profile), Apr 9th, 2008 @ 3:01am

    Re:

    Uhhh, have you been watching the news or just your articles? 70,000 jobs lost in Jan, another 70,000 lost in Feb and 80,000 lost in March - I am not seeing more jobs here, Im seeing less. DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Yup. Now don't you wish some of those folks creating jobs in foreign countries were working here helping to create more jobs in the US?

     

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  17.  
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    Danno, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 3:15am

    Mike, I've personally got mixed thoughts about the H1-B system (I've personally worked with a few people who definitely deserved to work wherever they damned well please and people who certainly did not), but I don't understand why you are so far in favor of it if you acknowledge that it has serious flaws?

     

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  18.  
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    Ronald J Riley (profile), Apr 9th, 2008 @ 3:36am

    Strange Coincidence

    "by Anonymous Coward on Apr 9th, 2008 @ 12:38am

    Why is the tech industry so special? In every other industry, a lack of skilled workers results in companies paying HIGHER SALARIES to draw those skilled workers in. That causes people to flood schools seeking education for those areas so that they can graduate and fill the industry needs, eventually resulting in a somewhat lower salary overall, because the demand and supply are more even. THAT is capitalism. THAT is how it has always been."

    Anonymous has hit the issue dead on. Isn't it amazing how Mike Masnick consistently is pushing big tech's agenda, patent deform & H1B? A really strange coincidence.

    Ronald J. Riley,


    Speaking only on my own behalf.
    Affiliations:
    President - www.PIAUSA.org - RJR at PIAUSA.org
    Executive Director - www.InventorEd.org - RJR at InvEd.org
    Senior Fellow - www.patentPolicy.org
    President - Alliance for American Innovation
    Caretaker of Intellectual Property Creators on behalf of deceased founder Paul Heckel
    Washington, DC
    Direct (202) 318-1595 - 9 am to 9 pm EST.

     

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  19.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 3:53am

    Re: by Mike on Apr 9th, 2008 @ 3:01am
    No, I wish they would take their job stealing asses back where they came from so we can have our own damn jobs . DONE and DONE!

     

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  20.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 4:49am

    Re: Re:

    Mike,

    You misunderstood me. I didn't say I've never heard of anyone working in the finance industry who has an H1B, I just said that I've never heard of anyone who was highly skilled.

    There's a subtle difference: in the finance industry, they are all trained at special schools in India, just sufficiently enough to pass the 'sniff test' and able to spout the proper set of TLAs. They generally have no experience and couldn't code their way out of a high school programming constest.

    I work in San Jose / Palo Alto and have seen my fair share of incompetence through the H1B system -- and most of these people are hired as warm bodies to fill expansion slots, but they have generally low qualifications and salary.

    However, as contrary evidence that supports your theory, over the last 12 years I've seen a dramatic shift in the type of resumes that are received. 12 years ago, at a famous tools developer we were told that all resumes must go to HR because there were questions being raised about why the company was all young white males. Very low diversity. But, that was because of the resumes received. (Most of those people were not qualified either, but they were home grown).

    Now, most of the resumes which I see are either of people from the Indian subcontinent, or from China -- mostly H1B. Very rarely do I see a resume from a native US citizen.

    The quality of the resumes has not improved, but the asking wage has most certainly dropped.

     

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  21.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 4:54am

    Re: Re:

    > First of all, take a look at salary data for engineers.
    > Salaries keep going up. So, it's a total strawman to
    > claim that this is about lowering wages.

    2% wage increases average are not 'going up'. They are pay cuts. If there wasn't an artificially created pool of cheap labor to fill in, then the wages would go up even more: supply and demand. When wages are going up less than the cost of living increases, then you don't have a shortage.

    If there is no shortage AND you are importing workers...
    how can you claim honestly that there is a shortage?

     

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  22.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 4:58am

    Re: Re:

    > Yup. Now don't you wish some of those folks creating jobs
    > in foreign countries were working here helping to create
    > more jobs in the US?

    What? In a job losing economy, you want more cheap labor to create jobs? That just doesn't bear up with reality.

    Take a look at the devastating impact illegal workers have caused in the construction industry (particularly in the southeast). Wages have dropped. Now you've got unskilled Mongolian hordes building houses for 1/2 the price of the citizens. How is this a good thing? Where do the laid-off workers go to get a job in a shrinking economy if they have to compete with lower-waged immigrants, legal and illegal?

     

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  23.  
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    Earthling, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 5:00am

    HELP WANTED: Individuals willing to bring down the money grubbing corps that are killing life on Earth!

     

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  24.  
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    SomeGuy, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 5:02am

    Re: Strange Coincidence

    As has been noted, the limited number of H-1B visas is putting an unnatural restriction on the supply of skilled workers. Such a restriction might in the short-term drive up local demand and thus present American tech workers with higher salaries, but it is an artificial bubble. It would drive up the costs for American companies relative to their foreign competitors (who are free to draw from the full supply of tech workers). When the foreign companies then cut their expenses and lower costs to their clients, the bubble will burst, American companies will go out of business, and American jobs will be lost.

    Drawing from the global supply may lower salaries but only because that's the natural state of the supply/demand dynamic.

     

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  25.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 5:31am

    Wake up and smell your BS! We need more people in the USA working, and this BS that this visa crap is a good thing is just that BS!!!

     

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  26.  
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    Business Sense, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 5:36am

    Re: Strange Coincidence

    Why is the tech industry so special?

    It is not special - it is just that you can find IT guys outside of US more easily. And also, that 'generally' it is not a threat to national security hiring non-US professionals for the job.

    It is difficult to find Aerospace engineers or Nuclear scientists out of US especially in the context that these are usually highly classified jobs.

    Other skill sets of civil and mechanical engineers are also not that easy to grab since it requires quite some facilities at universities which all foreign students cannot afford to get - means they are not 'that' qualified in the first place. Whereas, software engineering does not require sophisticated lab equipment so they are in abundance.

    Having said that, there are still people working on H1B in automobile industries and others (go to any hospital and you will know that it is correct).

    @Anonymous Coward: Instead of using filthy language, bring out arguments objectively. We are sharing our thoughts and experiences which vary from individual to individual. And yes, I am sure the day my company finds a better fit (either a cheaper guy who can do my job or is more efficient and can produce better results for the same cost), they will replace me. It is always 'survival of the fittest' in this cut-throat market.

    Peace.

     

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  27.  
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    Alexio, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 5:55am

    Re:

    I've never heard of a highly skilled H1B worker on the East Coast working in the finance industry.

    1) There are quite a few. Lurking in the Math Wiz basements of moajor banks. Probably you never been to that part of the building, though.

    2) Try to get to business school (I mean, try to get a loan) without permanent residentship, and you'll know why you don't see H1B's above the surface much. Although it's changing right now.

     

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  28.  
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    AN, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 6:02am

    if a H1 worker dun perform higher than US worker they will be out of a job with no disability payments.. so sniff tests are offset my moron who get kicked out

     

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  29.  
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    Henry Ford, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 6:14am

    US Workers Over-priced.

    SomeGuy got it right.

    What US workers do not seem to understand is that they are not "special" like they were 50 years ago. Now, they have to compete with the world and don't seem prepared to do so. They want to maintain their high wages and yet at the same time do not understand that their company will go under if they do so.

    Time for a US worker wake up call ... it's a flat world and you now have to compete globally. If there are lower wages in a foreign country that has lower costs and can sell at lower prices, they will undercut and knock you out of business. Better to bring in foreign skilled workers for a partial lowering of salaries than a complete loss of your existing ones.

    US worker (anonymous cowards), close your eyes and live in the past, but understand that this is just a part of the sinking high US living standards ... plus it will continue to get worse.

     

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  30.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 6:31am

    In the long run things will even out. Off shore salaries are going up, the dollar is going down. I don't mind them making more money even if I'm not happy about the pressure on domestic salaries.

    In the short term there is plenty of fraud. H1B and illegal unskilled workers are supported by execs that are willing to bend or break the law to make their numbers and their stock options, even while they shift the cost to the tax payer.

    Wonder why kids in the US don't want to go into tech? They watched the older folks get boned and figured they would be better off as investment bankers, lawyers and dentists, much harder to get offshored.

     

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  31.  
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    Getefix, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 6:37am

    Reality Check

    I hear a lot of 'theory' here about how immigrant labor is being used. I have a practical quote from a friend of mine that works at M$:

    "Yeah, and you should see the people we recruit from communist countries... talk about taking a pounding over the head without complaining about anything. Now that the golden handcuffs of the internet stock options age are gone we've resorted to the green handcuffs and cultural handcuffs. When we get foreigners they won't complain about much and can't move jobs even within the same company if it changes job description without delaying their green cards. Therefore it keeps salaries down artificially if you ask me. And then with the people we get from Russia, Ukraine, Romania, etc. they will gladly be exploited without any complaint whatsoever... they are paranoid that anything they say will be used against them by everybody being big brother. You need to hire your own folks for your own company and be the exploiter... we're old enough now to look the part if we can keep a poker face."

     

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  32.  
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    Kilgore Trout, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 6:48am

    Re: Re: It's hard to know who to believe

    I think Mike's getting BJ's from an H1B holder.

     

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    angry dude, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 6:55am

    idiotas

    Just go to dice.com discussion board and read some real stories of real people

    some nice read for fresh CS grads

    right now anything IT/tech related is a dump with no future for any american (except for the likes of Billy Gates of MShit or Mike of techdirt)
    stay out of IT, folks - you will be glad you did when you approach your forties
    Better be a unionized plumber - at least they don't import cheap plumbers from India (so far...)

     

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  34.  
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    mobiGeek, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 7:03am

    Re: Re: It's hard to know who to believe

    Mike,

    Very well put. I'd like to highlight that the majority of the venom spit against the H1B visa program is done by the likes of Lou Dobbs, Fox News, etc... These "journalists" drown their audience in nothing but anecdotal, tear-jerking stories about down-and-out "americans" and tout nonsensical statistics typically without context or stating sources.

    Those who question the benefit of the H1B visa program because of "what they read and hear" really ought to take a good hard look at what they "read and hear" Look beyond the eye-catching, heart-plucking headlines.

     

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  35.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 7:04am

    Re: Re: Re: It's hard to know who to believe

    Please head back to Slashdot; you are being missed over there.

     

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  36.  
    identicon
    mobiGeek, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 7:08am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Please point to a credible report showing that there is a large pool of skilled employees across the US that are out of work with no opportunities available to them.

    Anecdotes do not count, regardless of how many dozens Lou Dobbs has shown you this year so far.

     

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  37.  
    identicon
    angry dude, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 7:12am

    mudak

    my property tax in NJ is f****** 9,000$ a year

    Fir this kind of money I can keep not just one but two skilled programmers employed full time in some other parts of the globe

    Do you live in a cardbox and go to free soup kitchen with the rest of the homeless punks ?

     

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  38.  
    identicon
    mobiGeek, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 7:21am

    Re:

    the problem is a LACK of protectionism [...] because he would be competing with the flood of imported labor


    If you think that 65,000 visa bringing in employees is a "problem", then you truly don't understand the size of the work force in the US. Please define "flood".

    However, if the labor wasn't imported, then the local labor salaries WOULD HAVE TO INCREASE because of the lack of supply compared to the demand


    ...thus making the US company even less competitive and put pressure on that company to send those higher-paying technical jobs ... where? ... to those skilled workers living elsewhere (either via offshoring or by losing business to foreign competitors).

    If supply and demand economics is good enough for corporations, it should be good enough for me.


    It is good enough for you. And if you only concentrate on the next move in any game, economics included, then you will most certainly lose the game. You are worrying about an "american" losing-this-one-job instead of looking at the implications of keeping-this-one-job.

    Instead of throwing back micro-scale points, which Mike has addressed, why not attack his macro-scale points?

     

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  39.  
    identicon
    Steve, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 7:23am

    This world is not about $$, its about people If its not about money, why would people object to lower wages? Maybe because it IS about money? maybe? It's just about money for a different group of people. Screw those foreigners. They shouldn't make as much money as WE do, right? because they're foreigners. Truth be known, The human race is a virus that needs to be cured. Yeah, its about people...

     

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  40.  
    identicon
    mobiGeek, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 7:54am

    Re: Re: Re:

    You are mixing arguments. With hands-on labour such as the housing market, workers and companies have to be in the local region. With IT, it is a very different story as the work can be done anywhere.

    That said, I don't agree with the argument that "illegal workers are destroying the construction industry" either. Either the jobs are worth less and so wages should be lower, or the skilled workers are truly far more productive so as to justify the higher wages. If the work can get done at lower wages, why should customers support paying higher prices??

    Wal-mart is successful for a reason, the ultimate being that they cater to the customer's desire for lower prices as the foremost priority.

    [In fact, I'll retract my statement about construction workers having to be local...housing is moving more and more to pre-fab, meaning outsourcing of more jobs to foreign factories and lowering the skills requirements for installation of these structures. The skilled workers losing their jobs should be looking to innovate (e.g. work with or create construction technologies such as pre-fabs) or they need to change vocations...this is simple economic forces at work.]

    Don't shoot the messengers. Point out problems with the economic arguments and we've got a discussion.

     

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  41.  
    identicon
    mobiGeek, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 8:10am

    Re:

    Great, 80000 jobs lost in March.

    Now, what caused that? Was it because of 65000 H1B visas (of which only 1/12 would be attributed to the month of March)?

    Or is it because the US is failing to compete with skilled workers living abroad? Who could live and work here in the US, innovating and creating new jobs IN THE US?

    Simply pointing at a CNN headline means nothing. The article uses sensationalist language and numbers that scare, but if you actually read the article it boils down to the fact that "this is the worst fall in employment in 5 years".

    5 years?? We're freaking out over a change that hasn't been seen in 5 years? This is nothing more than a normal economic cycle at this point.

     

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  42.  
    identicon
    Henry Ford, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 8:19am

    US Workforce

    "Truth be known, The human race is a virus that needs to be cured."

    Good point, and maybe nature is just getting rid of the worst of the virus ... the overpaid US worker with their overuse and exploitation of the world's resources.

     

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  43.  
    identicon
    angry dude, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 8:34am

    Re: US Workforce

    Yeah, right... if things continue to go the way they are going, the "overpriced" middle-class US tech/IT worker (with wife, 2-3 kids in school, a 2-story house in a good school district, couple cars in a driveway etc.) is going to be replaced by Habib managing servers and routers and hacking some code from his little mudhouse in the swamps of India, thanks to broadband internet and cheap 100$ laptops

    Hey, check this out, folks: http://www.supportresort.com/

    Scary, isn't it ?

    3.36 $ per hour, that;s right
    Doesn't even buy youi a hamburger in good old USA anymore
    maybe just a kids meal
    I ma out of this f****** field of tech/IT
    It's all f***** up

     

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  44.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 8:50am

    Brainwashed souls, so many , as far as the eye can see. American working, Good. Corps want cheaper workers for 1 reason and 1 reason only .... more $$$ for them. This country was created FOR THE PEOPLE!!! Not the Corps! All the brainwashed fools in here that THINK otherwise, We'll see them scratching their ass when $$ means nothen anymore.

    Blessed Be my fellow EARTHLINGS, Screw the rest of you brainwashed fools.

     

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  45.  
    identicon
    Robert Franklin, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 8:51am

    they already do...

    ", plenty of highly skilled technology talent will be working for foreign competitors rather than US companies." -- the biggest high-tech users of H1-B visas are Indian companies used by American companies to off-shore work.

    Yes, we need to raise the cap, but we also need to reform the way H1-Bs work. We should be auctioning off the visas.

     

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  46.  
    identicon
    dorpass, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 8:52am

    Re: mudak

    CS majors from Stanford and Berkeley are getting ~100k salaries this year with near universal employment BEFORE graduating. May be if you weren't such a "mudak" yourself, you wouldn't be complaining so much.

     

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  47.  
    identicon
    DanC, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 8:52am

    Re: Strange Coincidence

    Anonymous has hit the issue dead on.

    Actually, no he hasn't. He's wrong on multiple counts. For instance, in the very next paragraph:

    But somehow when it comes to the tech industry, the answer isn't related to supply and demand. When it comes to the tech industry, they artificially bend supply and demand to the corporate side's favor by importing extra supply.

    The tech industry does not "artificially bend" the supply and demand principle. Protectionism, which Anonymous favors, places an artificial restriction on the supply of IT workers, which runs counter to the competitive principles of capitalism.

    If supply and demand economics is good enough for corporations, it should be good enough for me.

    And yet, apparently, it isn't. Anonymous is trying to portray the import of skilled foreign labor as a corruption of supply and demand, when in actuality it is supply and demand in action.

    Isn't it amazing how R.J. Riley consistently makes unsupported and incorrect statements and insinuates corporate affiliation despite reality?

     

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  48.  
    identicon
    bshock, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 9:06am

    I don't understand my own industry

    I'm a programmer who's lucky enough to have a job right now. Last time the H1B subject arose on Techdirt, I knew half a dozen competent programmers who were looking for work. Now, a few months later, I know nearly a dozen. And yet my manager and the head of HR at my office still moan about "how hard it is to find programmers these days."

    Seriously, what's going on? I see stories about the desperate need for foreign programming talent in the U.S., and yet I know so many guys who are desperate for work, know their subjects well, have years of experience, and don't even want all that much in terms of salary.

    I don't have anything against competent programmers coming to the U.S. to work. I just can't understand why management has the perception that there aren't any local people to do these jobs. Hell, I can't even convince management at my office that there are plenty of good local programmers out there who need jobs.

     

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  49.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 9:09am

    49

    Cause they want to hire much cheaper workers!

     

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  50.  
    identicon
    angry dude, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 9:09am

    Re: Re: mudak

    I really have nothing to complain about at the moment, punk

    As Bill Clinton once said: I feel your pain (I mean the pain of older out of work tech workers who are no longer wanted by corporations)
    Also I am disgusted to read all the moronic comments here:
    "CS majors from Stanford and Berkeley are getting ~100k salaries this year with near universal employment BEFORE graduating"

    Which planet are you from, dork ?
    you mean that Stanford and berkley CS class of 2008 is going to be universally employed at 100k ?

    hey, Stanford/Berkeley seniors, there is a lying piece of shit called dorpas here
    kick him in the butt (unless he can show you those jobs waiting for you)
    reality check: most of those CS graduates are going to have an EXTREMELY difficult time getting any jobs in IT simply because entry-level jobs don't exists anymore in IT

     

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  51.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 9:11am

    ok....I can admit when Im down. You even stated about knowing workers willing to work for less, and even I have to admit that I don't exactly want all that much. So, Your question is still rather valid, I'll go to bed.

     

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  52.  
    identicon
    angry dude, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 9:15am

    Re: Re: Strange Coincidence

    Are you a second reincarnatrion of Mike ?
    His know-all-butt side ?
    What are your credentials to attack Mr. Riley ?

     

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  53.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 9:22am

    Angry Dude needs no credentials, He tells it like he sees it, if you don't see it, you might want to open your eyes

     

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  54.  
    identicon
    SomeGuy, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 9:42am

    Re: Re: Re: Strange Coincidence

    I'm still unclear what place credentials have here. I mean, nevermind that none of Ron's credentials are from any firm or company I've ever heard of, the fact is he rarely does more than say, "I have credentials, so I must be right." He doesn't point out flaws in arguments, he doesn't address issues that are pointed out to him, and *if* he responds to a comment it's usually just to hand-wave and make ad hominem attacks on people who disagree with him.

    I don't care if you're a homeless highschool drop-out, if you make compelling points that are pertinent to the discussion, you're adding something. And if the only 'hole' your opposition can find in your arguments is the uneducated homeless source, then you're argument stands regardless of it's source.

    Sorry, AD, I don't mean to actually engage you: I'm pretty sure you don't care. Just an irritation that's been growing since Ron showed up.

     

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  55.  
    identicon
    DanC, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 9:46am

    Re: Re: Re: Strange Coincidence

    I can certainly understand your standing up for R.J. Riley, since he basically spews out the same nonsense as you (albeit with a decidedly better vocabulary).

    What are your credentials to attack Mr. Riley ?

    Why would I need credentials to point out the Mr. Riley doesn't know what he's talking about? The primary credentials that Riley lists at the end of his "only me" posts are self-granted, which hardly makes them significant.

    I do find it amusing that you try to break it down to a "my credentials" vs. "his credentials" argument rather than actually dealing with the topic at hand. Actually, it's eerily reminiscent of Riley's attempts at discussion. You must be proud.

     

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  56.  
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    angry dude, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 9:48am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Strange Coincidence

    Ron made a valid observation that on ALL important issues (be it patent "deform" or H1-B visas) Mike of techdirt ALWAYS sides with the BIGGEST tech multinational corporations...

    Why is that ?
    The universal answer is this: follow the money, always follow the money...
    The true honest journalism doesn't exists anymore - everybody is someone's pimp

     

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  57.  
    identicon
    SomeGuy, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 9:53am

    See? Not a word about credentials. I waste my breath.

     

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  58.  
    identicon
    Jake, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 9:54am

    There's a case to be made for giving preference to local sources of employees wherever possible, especially if migrant workers are being fleeced into accepting inadequate pay deals or dangerous working conditions. But ultimately, we can only ask businesses to comply with the law; if the local education system cannot supply enough people with the correct qualifications, that is the government's problem. This is precisely the situation that my home country is in; the current government decided to aim to have 50% of all school-leavers embark on a college education without bothering to find out if the job market actually needed that many college graduates, over-centralisation and an obsession with statistics is choking secondary education, and the apprenticeship system has been FUBAR since the seventies with no remedial efforts in sight.

     

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  59.  
    identicon
    DanC, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 10:04am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Strange Coincidence

    I'm sorry...I was actually more concerned with discussing the post's topic than with the throwaway jab at the end. My response to that was equally irrelevant to the topic. That being said, it's hardly surprising that you've only concerned yourself with material that doesn't matter to the subject at hand.

    Mike of techdirt ALWAYS sides with the BIGGEST tech multinational corporations

    Except when he doesn't.

     

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  60.  
    identicon
    mobiGeek, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 10:52am

    Re: Re: Strange Coincidence

    am sure the day my company finds a better fit [...] they will replace me


    Well, that will happen if you've decided not to do something about it. You have a few choices, but from your statement it seems that you are choosing the "wait and pray" approach.

    Personally, I'm working hard to find someone to do my job myself. The best way to get ahead in a corporate world is to find your own replacement and manage them (i.e. push yourself up the ladder).

    Looking for an open slot above you is being a fish fighting up an ever narrowing stream. Instead prove the benefit of your current position by making it so important that you become way overloaded with work and need someone else to fulfill the role. Your one position becomes a small team, then a department, etc... Look for opportunities for your department to grow its responsibilities.

    Market leaders don't become such by by waiting for other businesses to leave town first. They moved in, seize opportunities by gaps left in the current service providers and/or capitalizing on their shortcomings (e.g. over priced, poor customer service, outdated technologies, etc...). They grab new opportunities and take (or win) already serviced opportunities.

     

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  61.  
    identicon
    mobiGeek, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 10:53am

    Re:

    Did you have an argument to put forward?

     

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  62.  
    identicon
    mobiGeek, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 11:06am

    Re: idiotas

    So you've found a pool of individuals who have at least two things in common:

    - they use dice.com
    - they are complaining about not having work

    Realize that their circumstances might have nothing at all to do with the state of hiring in the tech industry. It is quite possible that these individuals are simply poor employees.

    I've put out a few contracts to these sites, and substantially less than 10% of respondents are worth considering having in a negotiation round.

    At our company, we have a serious shortage in IT talent (product managers, developers, senior QA, consultants) and have had open reqs for months. We've turned away TONS of unqualified "IT worker" resumes and have interviewed dozens only selecting about 1/3 of those we interview.

    Though we have lots of work to do, we simply cannot afford to bring on dead weight. Just because someone has "Java" or "software testing" on their resume does not make them a good developer, nor a good employee. We need intelligent, team players who can communicate and be responsible to perform their duties. And there are a number of other managers in area companies I know complaining of the same thing.

    We aren't looking for people with lots of experience, but we are looking for motivated people with the ability and desire to learn and work within our environment.

    Better be a unionized plumber


    If by "unionized" you mean that the employee can get a position and then sit on their laurels simply doing their day-to-day task list, then it doesn't matter what field they get into...they'll eventually get replaced by someone. Even the unions cannot protect stagnant or unproductive employees. Wages increase because with time employees experience and skills improve...not because they've performed the same action time in and time out for some measure of time...though that is not what the typical union leader believes.

     

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  63.  
    identicon
    dorpass, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 11:12am

    Re: Re: Re: mudak

    Hey, perdun.

    Here is one link:
    http://news.softpedia.com/news/Google-and-Facebook-Gear-Up-for-Battle-over-CS-Grads-77671.sht ml

    If Vinnytsia gave you enough comprehension skills, may be you'll understand what they are talking about. And if you were smart enough (not necessary to graduate from Vinnytsia College of Punks, I know), you might have figured out that I am somewhere around those "poor" Stanford/Berkeley seniors you cry about. Of course, being stuck in a communal apartment in Brooklyn probably makes it hard to understand that things can be different in other places.

     

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  64.  
    identicon
    mobiGeek, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 11:13am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Strange Coincidence

    Are you implying that Mike is somehow getting paid by large corporations to push forward support of the H1B visa program?

    I just don't understand what your criticism of points raised in this thread are.

     

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  65.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 11:17am

    Re:

    angry dude is nothing but a barely educated hypocrite who is stuck being a foul mouthed teenager. He is an immigrant from a small village in former USSR benefiting from this country's acceptance of people like him, yet he complains about this country doing it for people OTHER than him. I guess the boat ride was a bit too harsh on him.

     

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  66.  
    identicon
    mobiGeek, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 11:18am

    Re: I don't understand my own industry

    And yet my manager and the head of HR at my office still moan about "how hard it is to find programmers these days."


    Have you brought these out-of-work individuals you know in for an interview? Have you found out why it is that your company, looking for talent, isn't hiring these individuals? Could it be that they don't have the qualifications your company (or all other companies they've interviewed with) are looking for?

    Could it be that they aren't all that employable?

    Just a thought. You have a job, they don't. Either you are better than they are, or you should be scared for yourself.

    I find myself in the same shoes as your manager. Lots of interview candidates, very few with the skills we're looking for (intelligent, motivated, team-oriented...don't care what technology they know, as long as they can learn).

     

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  67.  
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    angry dude, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 11:21am

    Re: Re: idiotas

    If you were an actual techie (which you are obviously NOT) then you would be able to see the real picture

    I did my own research a few months back, not really looking for a job but assessing the current and future perspectives of IT in this country
    Boy, was I dissapointed
    Only afterwards I went to dice.com to confirm my findings
    and suspicions:
    Just like I thought: the tech hiring market is dead and still getting worse by the day
    The 90% of jobs posted on dice.com are non-jobs, recycled over and over again by the same of different recruting agencies
    After nobody local gets hired some H1-B is brought over to work for 15$ an hour (for 60-80 hour week getting paid for only 40 hour week) and to live with 5 other H1-Bs in one-bedroom appartment
    You are clearly either a corporate stooge or a brainless techdirt lemming - pick one

     

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  68.  
    identicon
    angry dude, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 11:26am

    Re: Re: I don't understand my own industry

    "Lots of interview candidates, very few with the skills we're looking for (intelligent, motivated, team-oriented...don't care what technology they know, as long as they can learn)."

    ???????????????????

    What ? Just shut the fuck up already

    Companies have laundry lists of precise SKILLZ and years of experience required for each shitty position paying like 20$ an hour

    When they cann't find 110% match they can hire some H1-B for 12$ and work him to death

    Just leave us alone, you, corporate butt-kisser

     

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  69.  
    identicon
    angry dude, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 11:35am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: mudak

    Wonderful information source you cited:
    "Microsoft and Yahoo are in this race as well, although numbers about their offers weren’t made public, but you know that they want the fresh minds in order to attempt to overthrow the others. It must be a good feeling to know that the biggest companies on the Internet are all checking you out."

    Blya, mudak, ty chto sovsem shuyel ?

    Yahoo has recently announced major layoffs.
    You farking article is a bit old and quite a bit off
    Google is not hiring too
    Go masturbate on your school teacher, punk

     

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  70.  
    identicon
    angry dude, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 11:49am

    Re: Re: idiotas

    "We need intelligent, team players who can communicate and be responsible to perform their duties. And there are a number of other managers in area companies I know complaining of the same thing.

    We aren't looking for people with lots of experience, but we are looking for motivated people with the ability and desire to learn and work within our environment."

    Sounds like you need an H1-B

    motivate him with an impressive 12$ hour salary so he can afford to share one-bedroom with other 5 folks like him

     

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  71.  
    icon
    Mike (profile), Apr 9th, 2008 @ 11:55am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Strange Coincidence

    Mike of techdirt ALWAYS sides with the BIGGEST tech multinational corporations...

    This is the most hilarious argument used against me, because on half my posts, people accuse me of being a communist trying to take down big companies, and on the other half, I'm accused of being a shill for big companies.

    So, angry dude, which is it? When I point out all the ridiculously bad things that big companies do, their failure to understand basic economics, and they way they abuse the political system... who am I working for then?

     

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  72.  
    identicon
    angry dude, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 12:01pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Strange Coincidence

    Mikey, don't use my words out of original context:

    "on ALL important issues (be it patent "deform" or H1-B visas) Mike of techdirt ALWAYS sides with the BIGGEST tech multinational corporations"

     

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  73.  
    icon
    Mike (profile), Apr 9th, 2008 @ 12:03pm

    Re: Strange Coincidence

    Anonymous has hit the issue dead on. Isn't it amazing how Mike Masnick consistently is pushing big tech's agenda, patent deform & H1B? A really strange coincidence.

    Ron, you know what's even more amazing? The fact that you are completely wrong on this. I have repeatedly trashed "big techs" agenda on many topics -- including patents (despite the fact that you like to claim otherwise).

    As I noted, half the time people accuse me of trying to destroy big businesses, and the other half they accuse me of being a shill. Maybe, just maybe, I simply speak my mind?

    Remember, I'm not the one making money off of my positions -- you are.

     

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  74.  
    icon
    Mike (profile), Apr 9th, 2008 @ 12:21pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Strange Coincidence

    Mikey, don't use my words out of original context:

    "on ALL important issues (be it patent "deform" or H1-B visas) Mike of techdirt ALWAYS sides with the BIGGEST tech multinational corporations"


    Ok, so in context then. Can you explain why I disagree with tech companies on patent reform? I have been quite clear that I think they're wrong in pushing for this particular form of patent reform.

    Also, I question your use of "ALL" in terms of important issues. They may be the important issues to you, but I disagree with large multinational companies on many issues, including copyright, licensing rights, trade policy, net neutrality and I'm sure many other things as well...

    I have told you before that we do no public advocacy work. I don't know why you continue to insist that we do.

     

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  75.  
    identicon
    mobiGeek, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 12:42pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: mudak

    I know that fresh CS graduates are being hired by Google for > $80K for work outside of the Valley. I know because I've lost a few candidates to them (Thankfully there are still enough smart entrepreneurs out here that they see beyond the first couple of years' pay stubs).

     

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  76.  
    identicon
    mobiGeek, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 12:47pm

    Re: Re: Re: idiotas

    In North America, as of my management courses in 2000, > 70% of all jobs are attained by referrals NOT by published job ads (print, web or otherwise).

    Taking a job site (Why dice? they aren't even close to the largest...) as a weather vane for the job pool is questionable at best...the kind of stunt I expect from CNN and Fox News.

    How you can claim that I am not a techie is ... interesting.

     

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  77.  
    identicon
    Peter, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 1:15pm

    Good bye, fuckwad Mike Masnick

    Looks like today is the last day I'll ever read this site.

    Mike Masnick is the "CEO" of techdirt, so of COURSE he's going to be pro H-1B. He's one of the people who is trying to screw us over. People like him are exactly the cause of the problem in the first place.

    I don't know about you guys, but I see more and more of these guys at my job, and my yearly raises have been getting more and more anemic. But you all can relate your experiences to Mike Masnick all you want ... he's never going to listen to you because all he's interested in is profits for his company, not what's actually happening to the rank-and-file IT worker.

    And, my fellow IT workers, if you guys had any brains whatsoever, you'd stop reading this site. There's a million sites out there that are pro American worker and pro IT. There's really nothing special about this particular one.

    If you keep reading this site, then maybe you do deserve to get replaced by one this H-1B guys that Mike seems to have a woody for.

    And so, I bid you adieu.

    Pete

    ps- Mike Masnick, go fuck yourself.

     

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  78.  
    identicon
    Kiba, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 1:30pm

    Re: Good bye, fuckwad Mike Masnick

    What reasons he have to screw you guys over?

    His clients paid him to tell them what they don't want to hear. Maybe he is telling you IT workers what you guys don't want to hear for free?

    You don't want to hear that foreign workers entering the country would eventually culminates in more jobs and more demand for workers like you?

    Maybe Mike is just damn honest and you're biased because you live in a fantasy world where only zero sum games exist?

     

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  79.  
    identicon
    angry dude, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 1:30pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: idiotas

    "In North America, as of my management courses in 2000, > 70% of all jobs are attained by referrals NOT by published job ads (print, web or otherwise)."

    Go take more of your "management courses" to become a real bullshit artist, like Mikey

    Then you'll have a wonderful career path in front of you

    one day you can even run for senator or even ,God forbid, a Pres of this country
    hell, the curent bunch of pres candidates aren't looking too good to tech/IT folks, all support more H1B visas, all are corporate buddies, I'm not voting this time
    This country is going downhill, that's all I can tell you

     

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  80.  
    icon
    Mike (profile), Apr 9th, 2008 @ 1:32pm

    Re: Good bye, fuckwad Mike Masnick

    Pete,

    You spew an awful lot of hatred towards me, but you fail to actually make an argument. In fact, you say many things that are simply incorrect.

    Mike Masnick is the "CEO" of techdirt, so of COURSE he's going to be pro H-1B. He's one of the people who is trying to screw us over. People like him are exactly the cause of the problem in the first place.

    I employ no H-1Bs. I've never tried to. To be honest, the process of securing an H-1B visa is so expensive and cumbersome I'm surprised so many companies bother.

    My interest is certainly not in screwing over techies. I'm trying to build a business that helps employ many more of them. Why is that so problematic to you?

    But you all can relate your experiences to Mike Masnick all you want ... he's never going to listen to you because all he's interested in is profits for his company, not what's actually happening to the rank-and-file IT worker.

    Actually, I'm very concerned with the "rank-and-file IT worker." I'm not sure if you noticed, but a big part of our business is helping those rank-and-file IT workers make more money by providing their expertise to companies.

    And, my fellow IT workers, if you guys had any brains whatsoever, you'd stop reading this site. There's a million sites out there that are pro American worker and pro IT. There's really nothing special about this particular one.

    I'm really concerned as to why you would possibly think this site is not pro American worker or pro IT? In fact, I made it quite clear in the post (did you read it?) that the reason we should support more skilled workers is that they HELP this country by INCREASING jobs here.

    Putting your head in the sand doesn't help. Recognizing the actual economics does.

    So if you prefer to leave this site, that is fine. But it doesn't change the economics at play. I am very strongly pro-US innovation. I want to help create more new jobs in this country. But you don't do that by keeping skilled workers out. This is econ 101 stuff. Protectionism HURTS the market.

     

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  81.  
    identicon
    angry dude, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 1:38pm

    Re: Re: Good bye, fuckwad Mike Masnick

    "I am very strongly pro-US innovation."

    Hah ? That's why you want to take patents from little dudes like me and hand them over to large multinational corps ?
    That's really "pro-US innovation"

    (Spare us from hearing your usual bullshit about how innovation is different from invention and why a copycat is more important than original inventor...)

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  82.  
    icon
    Mike (profile), Apr 9th, 2008 @ 1:45pm

    Re: Re: Re: Good bye, fuckwad Mike Masnick

    Hah ? That's why you want to take patents from little dudes like me and hand them over to large multinational corps

    As per usual, you spew, but you do not bother to read or understand. I do not want to take patents from you and hand them over to large multinationals. I have pointed to stacks and stacks of evidence showing that without patents you actually end up with *fewer* large multinationals and many *more* smaller, more innovative entities.

    In a world without patents, companies need to be quick and innovative, not slow and cumbersome. It should favor small innovative teams -- and that's exactly what history has shown.

    I know you like to pretend differently, but you haven't shown any evidence to prove your point.

     

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  83.  
    identicon
    dorpass, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 1:48pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: mudak

    You farking article is a bit old and quite a bit off
    Yes, of course, January 31st, 2008 was sooooo long ago. And how is it off, please do tell? What kind of insight do you have?

    Google is not hiring too
    Right, sitting in your cage of a home across the nation you know it for a fact. I should tell all the new Google hires that they weren't hired, it was just a dream.

    While you are spewing more nonsense, you should address why you, as an immigrant, are so against other immigrants?

     

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  84.  
    identicon
    dorpass, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 1:50pm

    Re: Good bye, fuckwad Mike Masnick

    Looks like today is the last day I'll ever read this site.

    Not true, you obviously have never read it before, just commented on whatever insanity went through your head at the time. So if you are to say that this is the last day you ever comment here, now that will be a cause for celebration.

     

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  85.  
    identicon
    angry dude, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 2:02pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: mudak

    "you should address why you, as an immigrant, are so against other immigrants?"

    I am not against other immigrants, I am against insanity

    And insanity is what characterizes US nowdays, be it H1B visas, patent "deform" or foreign policy

    Idiots like you will literally destroy this country, run
    it to the ground, just like they did it to Enron...
    but at least I have a place to go back, and you don't

     

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  86.  
    identicon
    dorpass, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 2:20pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: mudak

    And insanity is what characterizes US nowdays, be it H1B visas, patent "deform" or foreign policy

    Same policy that has become stricter since the times that your foul mouth floated in on a boat?

    but at least I have a place to go back, and you don't
    Oh reaaally now? One of these times you will talk about something that you actually know about it... but I won't hold my breath.

     

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  87.  
    identicon
    L2H, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 2:21pm

    Consultant

    I'm an EDI consultant who's been on the market for 10+ years. I'm surrounded by H1B's that don't know squat (some programming skill, but no biz knowledge), but have very impressive CV's.
    This shop should be filled with young American grads in their 1st or 2nd job being paid enough to live and make payments on their very large student loans. Instead we have a flock of H1B’s that are sending half the $$’s they make home, and not investing in our economy.
    They are here simply because they are the lowest bidders, not for any special knowledge. If I didn’t have very specific specialized skills I wouldn’t be here. Prior to my arrival they went through two H1B’s that claimed to have my abilities, but couldn’t cut the day to day requirements much less new projects. They, or the firms that represented them, simply lied about their experience to get them in here. This is not an unusual situation.
    The last time we had 150K+ visas available I couldn’t get a contract that would pay me enough to leave the house. I’m a traveling consultant and I need 95 to 100 per hour inclusive of expenses to make it. From late 2001 to 2005 all I was offered was 45 to 50, which at that time was an after expense net of 15 to 20. As I said, that was not even worth leaving the house that I can’t pay the mortgage on at that level.
    Meanwhile, an H1B will drive a used vehicle, live in a sub-standard apartment (usually with several other H1B’s), and not need to travel again until the next contract. This is almost the same as indentured servitude, which is illegal.
    Since ’05 I’ve worked mostly at fixing the mistakes of those H1B’s that took the jobs I wouldn’t/couldn’t do at that price. Happily there is plenty of that kind of work, and sure to be more.

     

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  88.  
    identicon
    dorpass, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 3:30pm

    Re: Consultant

    I'm surrounded by H1B's that don't know squat (some programming skill, but no biz knowledge)

    And I am surrounded by all-American educated engineers that have some engineering knowledge, but no biz knowledge. My company does not even do H1B and we still have trouble finding those young American professionals you are talking about. Having gone to school with them, I do wonder where you come up with a fairy tale of American programmers/engineers knowing much about business. It is a universal problem, they are good on technical side, not business or even common sense. You can blame it on H1B all you want, but once you get an average engineer without regard for his citizenship, you will have to come up with another lame excuse. You'll probably say it's because they wear crappy pants or don't shower enough.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  89.  
    identicon
    Iron Chef, Apr 9th, 2008 @ 10:30pm

    Re: Re:

    My wife and I are highly skilled British workers (me in IT and my Wife in Microbiology). We chose to emigrate to Australia over the US because of this short-sighted, protectionist attitude. Australia has a points system that allows anyone in if they meet the point's target, dependant on their profession. The points awarded to each industry and profession is varied according to the economic demand.

    http://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/general-skilled-migration/index.htm


    Thanks for the link! But I don't like the numbers...

    Management Consultant = 50 points
    Chef = 60 points

    I guess I took the wrong job. Maybe it's not too late for a career change. Heh.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  90.  
    icon
    Ronald J Riley (profile), Apr 10th, 2008 @ 3:00am

    Re: Re: Strange Coincidence

    Sorry Mike, but I do not make money off my positions. In fact I spend my own money, several million dollars worth trying to protect the patent system and our great country from greedy and unethical business interests and their stooges.

    In my opinion at best you spout off about issues which you are totally ignorant about and at worst you might be a stooge/shill for those companies. In the end it does not matter which because you are constantly promoting an agenda which would destroy our patent system and with it our only effective competitive advantage against low wage competition.

    One last point, The Coalition for Patent fairness & PIRACY, otherwise known as the Piracy Coalition has been painting a rosy picture of passage of the Patent Deform bill. Yesterday they had two major defections. The bill is going down in flames just as I have been predicting.

    One of the reasons it is in trouble is inventors are getting ready to give proponents of the bill a political hot foot right where it will cause them the greatest damage.

    See: www.Docs.PIAUSA.org/PIAUSA/

    We are ready to run additional ads targeting specific legislators in their home states :)

    Ronald J. Riley,


    Speaking only on my own behalf.
    Affiliations:
    President - www.PIAUSA.org - RJR at PIAUSA.org
    Executive Director - www.InventorEd.org - RJR at InvEd.org
    Senior Fellow - www.patentPolicy.org
    President - Alliance for American Innovation
    Caretaker of Intellectual Property Creators on behalf of deceased founder Paul Heckel
    Washington, DC
    Direct (202) 318-1595 - 9 am to 9 pm EST.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  91.  
    icon
    Mike (profile), Apr 10th, 2008 @ 3:47am

    Re: Re: Re: Strange Coincidence

    Sorry Mike, but I do not make money off my positions. In fact I spend my own money, several million dollars worth trying to protect the patent system and our great country from greedy and unethical business interests and their stooges.

    You are repeatedly asking for donations from small inventors to help you run this "campaign" of yours. Do none of the organizations you so proudly represent pay you at all?

    If that's the case, how are they actual organizations? What organization does not pay its President? If they do not pay you, can we assume they are merely made up organizations?


    In my opinion at best you spout off about issues which you are totally ignorant about and at worst you might be a stooge/shill for those companies

    Your opinion is incorrect. I'm curious as to why you claim I am ignorant on the topic when I am the one pointing to a ton of peer reviewed research and historical evidence to support my position, and you simply insult me?


    One last point, The Coalition for Patent fairness & PIRACY, otherwise known as the Piracy Coalition has been painting a rosy picture of passage of the Patent Deform bill. Yesterday they had two major defections. The bill is going down in flames just as I have been predicting.


    Ronald, your inability to read astounds me. I have pointed out, repeatedly, that I disagree with this bill. I don't think it helps the problems we face with the patent system. What happens with this particular reform bill one way or the other won't change my position on patents -- which is based on historical evidence.

     

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  92.  
    identicon
    SweatHog, Apr 10th, 2008 @ 5:47am

    Re: Re:

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  93.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Apr 10th, 2008 @ 6:28am

    Re: Re: Re: Strange Coincidence

    Man, I wish I had millions of personal money, period, full stop.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  94.  
    identicon
    angry dude, Apr 10th, 2008 @ 7:03am

    Re: Re: Re: Strange Coincidence

    Ron,

    The common perception that this patent "deform" is a fight between IT industry and everybody else is wrong.

    It is a fight between several largest multinational IT/tech corporations joined by banks and insurance conglomerates AND EVERYBODY ELSE (including small and not so small IT/high-tech companies which actually produce significant inventions, like Rambus or Quallcomm or Interdigital or Amberware etc. etc. etc.)

    I am IT myself and strongly against this destructive bill, because it limits my freedom as a small inventor and entrepreneur to go against the likes of Cisco, Intel or Microsoft.
    Those 1 million IT employeees signing the petition on behalf of the CPF were ordered to do so by their corporate employers. None of the independent inventors/entrepreners in IT/tech would sign such a petition (I mean, of course, those entrepreneurs who actually promote progress, not the likes of Mike of techdirt)

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  95.  
    identicon
    DanC, Apr 10th, 2008 @ 7:30am

    Re: Re: Re: Strange Coincidence

    The Coalition for Patent fairness & PIRACY, otherwise known as the Piracy Coalition

    It's really amusing that you keep repeating this line. The only one who has been calling them "The Piracy Coalition" has been you. It's intentionally misleading on your part to constantly post this propaganda.

    I understand that you're trying to get people to make this association, but it hasn't happened as of yet. It's simply your term for the organization, and nothing else.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  96.  
    identicon
    angry dude, Apr 10th, 2008 @ 7:47am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Strange Coincidence

    Hey dude

    Do yourself a favor and rent some PBS movies like "The Pirates of Silicon Valley"

    "patent pirates" or "technology pirates" is how we (small inventors) call the likes of MShit and Cisco and Intel and RIM and quite a few other large multinational tech corporations

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  97.  
    icon
    Mike (profile), Apr 10th, 2008 @ 10:19am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Strange Coincidence

    I am IT myself and strongly against this destructive bill, because it limits my freedom as a small inventor and entrepreneur to go against the likes of Cisco, Intel or Microsoft.

    Heh. And amusingly, you don't think that all the patent thickets out there limit your freedoms? You've clearly never tried to bring an actual product to market.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  98.  
    identicon
    Chris Brand, Apr 10th, 2008 @ 10:31am

    Re: Re:

    My situation is very similar. I'm also from the UK. I develop software, my wife's in air traffic. We spent six months figuring out how to get into the US before giving up and emigrating to Canada. Canada uses a very similar points system to Austrialia (last time I looked, the hot industry to be in was refrigeration, for some reason).

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  99.  
    identicon
    DanC, Apr 10th, 2008 @ 10:38am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Strange Coincidence

    "patent pirates" or "technology pirates" is how we (small inventors) call the likes of...

    Yes, and that terminology is about as accurate as the term "patent troll" that small inventors and patent abusers are always complaining about. However, I was specifically pointing out that referring to the Coalition of Patent Fairness as the "Piracy Coalition" appears to be Mr. Riley's creation, and he's the only one promoting the term (in just about every post). It isn't "also known as", it's a propaganda phrase.

    You know, for someone who just accused me of being "a second reincarnation of Mike" (who's the first?), you seem to be going out of your way to defend Mr. Riley. Perhaps before trying to call me out on something, you should make sure you aren't being hypocritical.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  100.  
    identicon
    dorpass, Apr 10th, 2008 @ 10:59am

    Re: Re: Re: Strange Coincidence

    In my opinion at best you spout off about issues which you are totally ignorant about and at worst you might be a stooge/shill for those companies

    Says the guy that is a stooge for Rambus. You might try not signing your posts sometimes, at least your hypocrisy does not shine through quite as much. There's not much we can do about your apparent ignorance :)

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  101.  
    identicon
    angry dude, Apr 10th, 2008 @ 11:08am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Strange Coincidence

    hypocrisy and demagogy is the province of Mike

    Your province is idiocy and mental retardation

    BTW why are you "dorpass", punk ? Do you work at Homedepot or Lowes ? Would fit you nicely in your job role: Welcome to HomeDepot, Sir. My name's dorpass. How can I help you ?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  102.  
    icon
    Mike (profile), Apr 10th, 2008 @ 1:03pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Strange Coincidence

    hypocrisy and demagogy is the province of Mike

    Would you care to provide an example of either?

    Oh right, I forgot that backing up your statements isn't what you do.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  103.  
    identicon
    dorpass, Apr 10th, 2008 @ 1:38pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Strange Coincidence

    You must be a complete moron if you cannot understand where "dorpass" comes from. For someone trolling the blog so frequently, you should have noticed another troll that frequents here and likes to post first with unfounded idiocy. So explain, perdun, how is it that you are not even of legal age yet already show signs of alcohol abuse?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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