What Good Will A Swedish Lawsuit Against The Pirate Bay Do?

from the hydra dept

It's been expected for a while, but reports are coming out that Swedish prosecutors will finally get around to filing charges against The Pirate Bay this week. If you don't remember, Swedish authorities bowed to US pressure a year and a half ago, and seized the servers of The Pirate Bay, a bittorrent search engine. As was noted at the time, the Pirate Bay doesn't host any infringing content, but simply acts as a search engine -- one that some artists have learned to use to their own advantage. The raid, which the entertainment industry quickly announced represented a "significant blow" against piracy, actually did the reverse. The resulting publicity, garnered the site a lot more attention, which has only continued to grow. It quickly set up new servers outside of Sweden, and it's hard to see a lawsuit doing very much but increasing the amount of attention given to the site. When the actual lawsuit is announced, expect quotes from the RIAA and MPAA about what a big deal this is -- but the only really big deal is how little this lawsuit will do to help the industry. It won't help them adjust to a changing market. It won't help them to adopt necessary new business models. It will only increase the attention given to the Pirate Bay and other sites. We've seen this before with Napster. We've seen this before with Grokster. We've seen this before with Kazaa. So why does the entertainment industry keep doing this?


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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 1:41pm

    Isn't doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results each time the definition of insanity?

     

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    JDigital, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 1:43pm

    No.

    Its the definition of old people losing their grip.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 2:00pm

    I didn't know a thing about bit torrents/Pirates Bay until the news broke about the raid. Thanks to the MPAA and RIAA I now regularly 'browse' bit torrent search engine sites. Thanks for the heads-up, dipsticks!

     

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    Hellsvilla, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 2:07pm

    I'll second that!

    Thanks to all the publicity that TPB gets, I now browse new stuff there about once a week. When a new game or movie comes out that I feel compelled to try, I usually go find a demo on tpb before I go check out the website.

    As for music, well, my beatles collection was completed years ago... So I have no idea what the music scene is like on tpb.

     

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    Corey, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 2:19pm

    Your "new business model"

    In all your blogs you go on and on about the "new business model" the movie and music industry need. What you seem to ignore is this, even if they all adopt new business models and offer the free content you want (which is really what everyone complaining about the MPAA and RIAA want, its not about right), if we ignore copyright laws and allow anyone to post and "share" anything they want, more and more sites will pop up offering copies of music and movies to compete with the new free sites offered by the music and movie industry. They'll have to compete with their own product, and the pirates will have the advantage. They don't have to invest all of the money into the products, they don't have to pay royalties to the artists like the movie and music industry would have to do, all they have to do is keep their website up and running and keep all of the profits for themselves.

    Whether the movie and music industry need new business models is irrelevant to whether we need copyright protection (which we do), and your bringing it up in every blog you write makes it sound more like an excuse of a whiny little kid - like their lack of creating a new business model entitles you to steal.

    If you don't like their product or what they charge, live without it.

     

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      jonnyq, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 2:51pm

      Re: Your "new business model"

      Personal attacks and strawman arguments aren't helpful and hurt your credibility.

      It doesn't matter how you feel about the issue. It doesn't matter how Mike feels about the issue. Global market forces are going to work however they're going to work regardless. The fact is that you can even slow down piracy without putting unnecessary restrictions on your legitimate consumers. Nothing can change that fact - no DRM, no new law, no magic lamp, no wishful thinking. All you can do is change your business model to offer a better product that's profitable on the market.

      Trying to insist otherwise is more akin to whining.

       

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        Anonymous Coward, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 2:52pm

        Re: Re: Your "new business model"

        grr... "can't". stupid misspellings that screw up an entire paragraph...

         

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          Anonymous Coward, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 10:50pm

          Re: Re: Re: Your "new business model"

          grr... "can't". stupid misspellings that screw up an entire paragraph...

          I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one to have done that. :)

           

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      Mike (profile), Jan 29th, 2008 @ 2:53pm

      Re: Your "new business model"

      In all your blogs you go on and on about the "new business model" the movie and music industry need. What you seem to ignore is this, even if they all adopt new business models and offer the free content you want (which is really what everyone complaining about the MPAA and RIAA want, its not about right), if we ignore copyright laws and allow anyone to post and "share" anything they want, more and more sites will pop up offering copies of music and movies to compete with the new free sites offered by the music and movie industry.

      Corey, perhaps I haven't explained the new business model clearly enough then. The point is that it *doesn't matter* if more sites pop up and offer the same content for free. In fact, that *helps* you by promoting your stuff. You don't care how the content gets out there because it's purely promotional. What you do, though, is tie that back to a scarce good that others can't copy, that is made more valuable the more the content is out there.

      So, if you're a musician, that means access to you or concerts or the ability to write a new song. These are things that simply can't be copied. So it doesn't matter if other sites pop up. In fact, that's a GOOD thing.

      They don't have to invest all of the money into the products, they don't have to pay royalties to the artists like the movie and music industry would have to do, all they have to do is keep their website up and running and keep all of the profits for themselves.

      That totally misunderstands the model. You're basing it on the idea that sites should be profiting directly from the content, but that's not how the model works.

      Whether the movie and music industry need new business models is irrelevant to whether we need copyright protection (which we do)

      Actually, it has everything to do with it. This is a business model question, not a criminal question. And I'd ask you to explain why we need copyright.

       

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        Corey, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 3:13pm

        Re: Re: Your "new business model"

        OK, I'll give you an example from an industry that hasn't been affected much by file sharing yet but probably will be: publishing.

        I'm a true crime offer who has had decent success, I also know other true crime and history authors. My last last book was well reviewed in national magazines. The hardcover sold out and it will be in paperback this fall. Sell out the hard cover barely made me a profit when you take into account the money spent researching the book. That's the case for many authors, most don't make a lot of money.

        Now if you get rid of copyright, when a book comes out others will copy it and sell their own versions, or digitize it (if its not in ebook format) and sell or give those away. For authors barely making a profit already, this will drive them from the business (sorry, when you grow up and have a family, you can't spend all of your money and time writing books when that's the only reward - I spent thousands of dollars researching my last book and couldn't afford to do that if I didn't think I was going to make it back.).

        Now who does this hurt? The author, yes, they lose their lively hood, but it also hurts the consumer because as you drive authors from the business, you have less choices. Also, if you drive profit from the business you have less authors getting published through real presses who have things like editors, which will help any book.

        If enough profits are taken away from any industry, movies and music included, what will happen is you will have less music and movies being produced, and less money going into the production. In the end the consumer suffers.

         

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          Anonymous Coward, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 3:27pm

          Re: Re: Re: Your "new business model"

          Mike and techdirt done very well without copyright's protection, thank you very much.

          The free and open source software sector done very well without copyright's monopoly protection.

          In the early history of the American republic, we don't recognize foreign authors' copyright. Yet American publishers sometime even paid more than the royalty that foreign authors received in their own country.

          I bet books like Free as in Freedom still get sold despite the repealing of copyright's monopoly protection.



          You need to provide solid real world evidence. You still have no bite.

           

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            Corey, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 3:49pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Your "new business model"

            You just like to disagree, don't you. Using Mike and techdirt is idiotic. A website is a different product then a book or movie. There is also less required investment.

            I'm sorry that you don't have an ideas that people would pay to buy, and that you want everyone else's ideas for free.

            You can't make the argument that if copyright protection is lifted, there will be no impact on the person who created the item. Of course if other people are also putting out your product, you will lose some money. That's why I used the example of authors, because most authors would no longer be working authors if they lost a decent percentage of their royalties.

             

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              Anonymous Coward, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 4:01pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Your "new business model"

              I never say anything like if copyright is uplifted suddenly, there would be no impact. I never said anything close to that.
              In fact, if we abolish copyright, I advise a gradual transition plan to give people time to adapt.


              What I am really saying is that copyright is unneccessary as incentive and there is no evidence that copyright improve economic productivity.

              You need stop assuming that I am out there to get everything for free. I am quite willing to pay for books, thank you very much. Mot to mention that I also oppose price controls to keep gas price cheap instead of reflecting their real price.

              Also, you continue to fail as far as evidence goes. You need real evidence to have any weight.

              Hypothetical scenarios are not enough.

               

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              Kevin, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 4:27pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Your

              Corey, the music industry's business model has been well-documented for it's offensive close-mindedness, even before the advent of file-sharing on the internet. It is built upon the mindset (dating back to the days of early radio) that listeners are anxiously waiting to be told what to listen to next, and it rests upon the music industry to decide the "next big thing". Thanks to pop-culture shrines like MTV teaching the young how to be cool, the industry has followed this path to fortunes several times over. For years, music executives have dumped obscene amounts of money into hyping an elite few entities (ranging from very talented to absolutely pathetic), and despite charging outrageous sums for tapes and CD's only a small fraction of the profit was passed on to the artists themselves. I was in college when the bomb dropped, believe me... P2P file-sharing of music was every bit a backlash against the greedy and insulting practices of the music industry as it was people wanting things they couldn't afford.

              It's been said many times, with little retort: every aspect of the commercial music industry has seen a growth in profit except for the sale of vastly over-priced and undervalued plastic discs. Authors have been dealing with an incredibly common and popular form of file-sharing for quite some time... it's called the public library. Don't underestimate the public's willingness to support an artist when their work is appreciated, when the level of support requested is appropriate and reasonable, and the industry medium hasn't managed to alienate and/or antagonize its prospective buyers.

               

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          rstr5105, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 4:10pm

          Re: Re: Re: Your "new business model"

          Copyrights were never intended to be used as liberally as they are today, Mike has said it in the past and I for one tend to agree. Our founding fathers even said that you cannot OWN an idea once you've shared it, it doesn't work. Intellectual property != real & tangible property.

          As an avid reader myself, I can tell you that when it comes to books & writing, the quality of the work dictates the price I'll pay.

          Some books are absolute swill, and those are the ones that I avoid. However with the Wheel of Time series, Robert Jordan, one which I first started reading digitally and "illegally" I now own most of the series in BOTH hard cover and paper back.

          My suggestion to you is this, offer your book online in an open format (drm-free), allow me to copy it around onto disc and such, allow me to share. But also publish it conventionally. If you go back and actually read the article and comments from the past you'll notice that the majority of people are more than willing to buy content they like, and the more you allow me to share that book/document with my friends the more chances you have of one of them liking it too (assuming they've never heard of you before). Mike said it right when he said its about marketing.

          My $0.02

           

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          John, Feb 23rd, 2009 @ 2:31pm

          Re: Re: Re: Your "new business model"

          Yes, I'm hopping on this late, but...

          Corey, did you really expect us to believe that you're an author when you care so little for your craft of writing that your attempt at intelligent discourse is laden with errors such as the dual errors of "I'm a true crime offer," and the comma splice in only the second sentence? The following one isn't any better. "My last last book..." Is that to mean the book before the last one, or do you mean the REAL last one, not the one that was kinda, sorta the last one.

          Oh, wait. There's more. "Sell out the hard cover..." rather than "Selling out the hard cover..." And so on ad nauseum.

          Perhaps if you didn't spend "thousands of dollars researching [your] last book" you'd be able to afford a word processing program that actually catches errors that even my high school students wouldn't dare submit to me in an informal writing assignment.

           

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      Anonymous Coward, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 2:56pm

      Re: Your "new business model"

      First, PROVE TO US with hard cold evidence that copyright actually increase economic productivity.

      If you can't prove, you got no bite.

      I got tons of evidence to prove you wrong. One example is RedHat. Even though RedHat have ton of legal pirates and competitors who are providing the same redhat products, RedHat still make money. Heck, they're even growing.

      This isn't about whether if people can get musics for free or not. This is about selecting the best economic strategy so you can survive and thrive in a world that is getting ever more competitive.

      Let me tell you, I'll be glad to charge you 30 dollars for buying my games. But I live in a time when it is become increasingly infeasible to do so. Not to mention that I already gave up my intellectual monopoly to boot. It is time to invent new business models that take advantage of the internet and the fact that people copy my games.

      For that, I already found ways to make money.

       

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        Corey, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 3:19pm

        Re: Re: Your "new business model"

        FYI, copyright is NOT an "intellectual monopoly". If I'm in a ska band and are songs are copyrighted, that is not a monopoly, that is protection of our product. A monopoly would be if no one else was able to produce ska music but us.

         

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          Anonymous Coward, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 3:37pm

          Re: Re: Re: Your

          It is a monopoly on a specific expression of a work. It is narrow but still a monopoly.

          Here is a definition from answer.com:

          "The legal right granted to an author, composer, playwright, publisher, or distributor to exclusive publication, production, sale, or distribution of a literary, musical, dramatic, or artistic work." -- Answer.com

          Emphasis is mine.

           

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            Corey, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 3:58pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Your

            I just looked through some old posts and saw some by you on this very topic. Trying to equate copyright with a monopoly (like the telephone companies) is really grasping for straws.

            If I write a book on a murder, and that book is copyrighted, you can still go out and write a book on that same murder. Yes, I have the exclusive right to my work, but not a monopoly on that case or murder books in general.

            There is no good reason why somebody having exclusive rights over their specific work is bad for anybody. It is not that same thing as a monopoly like the evil exampleof past monopolies you people what to equate it with.

             

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              Anonymous Coward, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 4:03pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Your

              I am saying that you have a narrow monopoly on your work.

              Simply put, nobody can sell a book without your permission.

               

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                Anonymous Coward, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 4:05pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Your

                Correction:

                Simply put, nobody can sell your book without your permission

                 

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                  Corey, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 4:10pm

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Your

                  Fine, if you want to call that a monopoly.

                  Can you explain how that is bad?

                   

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                    Anonymous Coward, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 4:31pm

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Your

                    Artificial scarcity causes books to be available at higher price than it would otherwise be. It also increase the cost of production.

                    It also cause the unavailability of some out of print books since nobody can print it without permission.

                    In many cases, it also cause some beneficial works to be illegal such as anime fansubs and fan fiction.

                    Copyright laws also happen to be particularly vulnerable to rent-seeking such as the DMCA and copyright extensions.

                     

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                      Corey, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 5:46pm

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Your

                      You are right, artificial scarcity does cause books, and other items, to go for a higher price they they normally would.

                      But on the other side, if you abolish copyright law and any publisher can print someone's work, they have the advantage. The publisher who first published the work has to pay for more then just the printing of the book. They paid for editors, cover design, advertising. After that investment, they can't afford to charge rock bottom for the book and expect to make their money back. They can't compete with people who put out the same product but didn't have to pay for anything but printing the book, and it would be an unfair system if they had to. Their reward for putting the money into the development of the product is the rights to that product. This also goes for movies and music.

                       

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                        Anonymous Coward, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 6:07pm

                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Your

                        I already disprove you with publishers paying for foreign authors' work in early American history.

                        Publishers have incentive to be the first to publish books. This allowed them to charge higher price. I believe economists call this the first mover advantage.

                        They also have incentive to flood the market so other competitors can't complete.

                        For more example why this is not the case, we look back to RedHat again. Despite competitors charging lower price, or even giving away RedHat products free, Redhat were able to charge at a higher price anyway. Thus, allowing RedHat to make lot of money.

                        For some markets, people will prefer the original maker over the copycats. For example even if you make a perfect copy of an excellent and very valuable painting, you will not fetch a high price for it once people know that your is not the original. They will alway prefer the original.

                         

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                          Corey, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 7:16pm

                          Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Your

                          You didn't disprove anything. You can always find examples you think "prove" something, but I'm willing to bet that the American publishers publishing foreign author's work examples, those were very well known authors. This would not work for most authors because it takes time to build an audience and get the book reviewed, etc. By the time many author's sales peak another publisher could easily have another version out. Also, if you know anything about publishing, you'd know that execpt for big mass market book, most books come out in higher priced hardcovers first so the publisher can recoup its costs. If these sales go well, then a paperback cmes out. Now can you honestly say that if another publisher comes out with a cheaper mass market paperback while the original publisher still only has the hardcover out, the original publisher won't be hurt? Of course they will. And again, I used this example because authors generally don't make that much, so this loss in profits could push many authors into other careers. Again, that would hurt the consumer.

                           

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                            Mike (profile), Jan 30th, 2008 @ 3:39am

                            Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yo

                            You didn't disprove anything.

                            Actually he did. You claimed that authors wouldn't get paid, and he explained that this is provably false.

                            You can always find examples you think "prove" something, but I'm willing to bet that the American publishers publishing foreign author's work examples, those were very well known authors. This would not work for most authors because it takes time to build an audience and get the book reviewed, etc.

                            All the more reason to encourage it to be copied. It helps build up the audience. THe more it's out there, the more likely it is to find an audience.

                            Witness Paulo Coehlo's recent decision to pirate his own books:
                            http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20080124/08563359.shtml

                            Note that he ended up INCREASING sales drastically this way.

                            By the time many author's sales peak another publisher could easily have another version out.

                            For the first book. But the next one will be in high demand.

                            And again, I used this example because authors generally don't make that much, so this loss in profits could push many authors into other careers. Again, that would hurt the consumer.

                            You are making the false assumption that the authors make less this way. With a larger audience of potential readers, there are many new ways to profit as well, beyond just selling the book directly. Again, it goes back to my original point: you are ignoring that there are other business models beyond selling content directly.

                             

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                              Corey, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 8:01am

                              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re

                              And you are making false assumptions based on a few examples in a bubble. Its worked for a few authors largely because they are the only one doing it. If everyone gave their work away for free the effect would be lessened.

                              Also, you are ignoring the fact that many, many books are only going to appeal to a certain market. If I write a Civil War book for example, there are only so many people who are going to buy that. As I said, the first edition would be hardcover (so the publisher can recoup the money they invested on it). If someone gets the book the day it come out and prints a paperback, do you think they're doing major advertising and expanding the market? No they are cutting into my sales.

                              I'm not going to waste my time here at work researching this for you - if you want examples go find them. I'm sorry to tell you this, but there are certain products only so many people will want, so creating competition doesn't always expand the market, many times it splits the market.

                              And really if you want an example, look at the record industry. I know there's many people in here who will try to find other reasons for their lagging record sales, but the fact is the record industry has always come under the same criticisms its under now, yet sales always increased (as did the population and market). The fact that sales decline has been at the same time as the rise in file "sharing" (stealing) is not coincidence.

                               

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                              Corey, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 8:15am

                              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re

                              "You are making the false assumption that the authors make less this way. With a larger audience of potential readers, there are many new ways to profit as well, beyond just selling the book directly. Again, it goes back to my original point: you are ignoring that there are other business models beyond selling content directly."

                              Well, the book is the product. There is not much merchandising that can be done for a lot of book. Bigger authors can make money from speaking, but not most.

                              And again, this goes back to hurting the consumer. If you're trying to force authors to use the book as an advertisement and then make money in other ways, you will lose good authors. Just as some people can't write, some authors may not be good at, say, public speaking.

                              You and others in here act like this is so easy, like publishers, record companies and movie studios have ignored revenue streams. Really? Do you think any of these entities don't want to make as much money as possible?

                              What is sounds like is jealousy. You can't make money from writing books or making music, so you want those who do to make less and work harder for it. I'm sorry but books and songs are a product. They are providing the consumer with entertainment. This is what are economy is. Exchange of good and services (entertainment) for money,

                               

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                          Corey, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 7:56pm

                          Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Your

                          Forgot to mention - its the biggest companies who can produce the most products the cheapest. So yeah, get rid of copyrights, great idea, screw the artists, they're supposed to be starving anyway right. If a record company finds a CD on myspce that's starting to gain popularity, why should they have to sign the artist and pay them. Just let them print up CDs, put them in records stores (something most independant artists can't do) and make 100% of the profits.

                           

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              Anonymous Coward, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 10:34pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Your

              I just looked through some old posts and saw some by you on this very topic.

              Now THAT'S funny.

               

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              Mike (profile), Jan 30th, 2008 @ 3:34am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Your

              I just looked through some old posts and saw some by you on this very topic. Trying to equate copyright with a monopoly (like the telephone companies) is really grasping for straws.

              Really? You should learn what a monopoly is then. And you should learn some history.

              Thomas Jefferson to James Madison in discussing whether or not the Constitution should have a provision on copyrights and patents:

              "The saying there shall be no monopolies lessens the incitements to ingenuity, which is spurred on by the hope of a monopoly for a limited time, as of 14 years; but the benefit even of limited monopolies is too doubtful to be opposed to that of their general suppression."

              Note that he calls them monopolies.

              James Madison to Thomas Jefferson:

              "But grants of this sort can be justified in very peculiar cases only, if at all; the danger being very great that the good resulting from the operation of the monopoly, will be overbalanced by the evil effect of the precedent; and it being not impossible that the monopoly itself, in its original operation, may produce more evil than good."

              So, please explain how it's a stretch to call copyright a monopoly. It clearly is a monopoly, granting the holder exclusive rights to the content.


              There is no good reason why somebody having exclusive rights over their specific work is bad for anybody


              Actually, there are tremendous reasons why it's bad for everyone. Read a little Adam Smith and learn why monopolies tend to hurt everyone. It shrinks a market, it limits growth and it harms competitiveness. It's why we moved to a free market from protectionism.

              It is not that same thing as a monopoly like the evil exampleof past monopolies you people what to equate it with.

              Actually, if you look at the research, intellectual monopolies can have an even larger negative impact.

               

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                Corey, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 7:48am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Your

                You are using examples of them talking about patents for inventions. Find examples of them talking about copyright for authors, thats closer to the point.

                I don't really care what Adam Smith says, you can always find someone to back your point. There is also many experts and research that says exactly the opposite of Adam Smith.

                 

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                  Alimas, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 9:05am

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Your

                  Remember Shareware in the 90's? Remember how software companies would release part of their programs as free copies to use and distribute but required money to get the rest of the application? Remember how that was the backbone for marketing for software companies of all sizes that allowed a lot of individual coders and tiny companies to get big followings and reap major financial rewards? Remember "Mother of All Battles", "Scorched Earth", etc..?
                  Thats the kind of model hes talking about.

                   

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                    Corey, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 9:14am

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Your

                    And that's a great model, for certain products, but will not work for all intellectual property.

                    For products it can work for that is great and benefits everyone - but with some products (like ebooks for example) there are limited extras you can sell.

                    And the other thing about your examples is it was the companies who decided to give the software away for free. They new it would benefit them. These companies have a lot of people working on these problems. If everyone giving away all of their content for free worked, they'd be doing it, but it works for some kinds of content, but not for others.

                     

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                      Alimas, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 10:42am

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Your

                      Well, books are a significantly different ball field than music or software. But models taking off the idea can be developed.
                      We are at a point where the technology necessary to simply copy and distribute something such as an e-book can be done very easily by any anyone between 9 and 99 years old and with major to very little computer knowledge and with very, very little chance of negative consequences.
                      The music industry should perhaps consider focusing on doing something to spice up the sale of different kinds of musical products you can't rip - concerts, autographed material, chances to meet the artists, etc..
                      Actually, they could spice up CD sales by providing more than just a piece of plastic with music someone can get anywhere to include books about the band, photo books, etc, etc.. Turn the actual song from the product into bait to get people to spend their hard-earned cash on all kinds of other stuff.
                      I can't think of anything for books off the top of my head, but I'm sure something will come to me by the end of the day.
                      But anyway, that would be the idea.

                       

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 2:30pm

    free advertising for free downloads, how perfect!

    see, the **AA are marketing genuises!

     

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      Corey, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 2:38pm

      Re:

      Perfect? Maybe, maybe not. Advertising only works if a significantly larger number of people visit a record company/band's site to download the album then would buy it.

      Lets say you download a song off of itunes for $0.99. Now if you get rid of that fee and replace it with advertising, you will maybe make $0.01 per customer (actually less). Now that penny has to be divided up among a lot of people. That business model only works if you have like 100 times the people visiting th site to download something for free then would pay for it.

       

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 2:47pm

    Corey

    Corey you must be new here...

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 2:57pm

    I'm sure this has been said before, but Google can be used to find free music and movies. I'm sure it's possible with other search engines too.

    Google doesn't host the infringing content, it just shows you where to find it.

     

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    skyrider (profile), Jan 29th, 2008 @ 3:00pm

    Go Corey!!! NOT!!!

    "In all your blogs you go on and on about the "new business model" the movie and music industry need."

    The movie and music industries need a model where they offer their product at a reasonable price and without DRM. Scratch that, only the movie industry needs to do that now.

    If the music industry had the copyright protection that they demanded, we wouldn't be seeing DRM-FREE MP3's for sale. (In fact, we probably wouldn't see any music on the internet except for Indie music.)

    The music industry adapted, albeit a little late.

    The movie industry, on the other hand, instead of pursuing a DRM-FREE Download model (and reasonable prices) has taken to suing anything/everything in sight. CinemaNow/Movielink was a joke, and so are the iTunes movie store and Amazon Unbox. As long as there is DRM on the video, I will not buy it, sorry.

    The consumer is speaking, and the industry is not listening. NO DRM - So that I can move content that I have paid for to any device or stream it to any device from my computer. The only thing the industry is 'competing' with (in my eyes) right now is DRM-FREE, not FREE.

    If an (industry-sponsored) movie site came online tomorrow, offering (recent) content at a fair price (if a movie sells for 19.99 in the store, then the download should be half that) WITHOUT DRM, then I would have my visa card out so fast that it would make your head spin, Corey.

    "What you seem to ignore is this, even if they all adopt new business models and offer the free content you want (which is really what everyone complaining about the MPAA and RIAA want, its not about right),"

    I don't want free, see above.

    "Whether the movie and music industry need new business models is irrelevant to whether we need copyright protection (which we do), and your bringing it up in every blog you write makes it sound more like an excuse of a whiny little kid - like their lack of creating a new business model entitles you to steal."

    No, it entitles me not to buy.

    "If you don't like their product or what they charge, live without it."

    I can live without the industry, can the industry live without me? Probably. Can the industry live without a million of me? They'll just call it piracy and try to get some legislation passed that demands that every consumer spend at least a hundred dollars a month on their product.

    Can the industry live without ten million of me? How about a hundred million?

     

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      Corey, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 4:18pm

      Re: Go Corey!!! NOT!!!

      "I can live without the industry, can the industry live without me? Probably. Can the industry live without a million of me? They'll just call it piracy and try to get some legislation passed that demands that every consumer spend at least a hundred dollars a month on their product."

      The issue is people are not living without it. If they were the industry would be looking at itself. The issue is people are stealing it, and most of those people would be paying for CDs and DVD if they could not get it for free. CD sales were increasing year to year before p2p.

      If you really have a moral problem with the RIAA and MPAA, just ignore their products. But we all know in reality that the majority of people illegally downloading music don't have some moral objection to the RIAA, MPAA, or anything else, they just want everything for free.

       

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    Shun, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 3:06pm

    Prosecution vs. Lawsuit

    Man, I can't believe no one picked up on this. The summary makes a fundamental error. The Swedish prosecutor is not going to sue anyone. He's going to file formal criminal charges against the Pirate Bay. Perhaps even confiscate their equipment, and all that...not that shutting them down will do any good, but oh well, they have to try.

    This is not like before, where the Swedes shut down the PB, and the owners got to run around to Holland and set it back up again. They'll have to get someone else to do that part, because the owners of the PB will be in jail, or out on bail, with a condition that they not leave the country.

    This is more like the DVD Jon case where the Norwegian prosecutor put the screws on Jon, but in the end, they couldn't convict him of a crime. The prosecution in the PB case is looking to put the hurt on the PB administrators.

    I wonder what law they will have broken? Whatever the case, this will turn into a long battle. Unless they cop a plea (can you do that in Sweden?) this is going to cost them some time, and possibly a fair bit of money. They might still be in court when the next election rolls around, so who knows what the long-term effects of this prosecution will turn out to be?

    One things for sure, if the prosecution actually arrests these folks, that government is not going to stay in power for long. It'll have the Streisand effect all over again, with shades of Kevin Mitnick. Whatever happens, things will get interesting. Sweden's going to have a mutiny on its hands.

     

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      Anonymous Coward, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 10:47pm

      Re: Prosecution vs. Lawsuit

      The Swedish prosecutor is not going to sue anyone. He's going to file formal criminal charges against the Pirate Bay.

      Maybe, maybe not. The linked article doesn't specify that the charges being contemplated are criminal. And if they are, at what level or what that would mean. And I'm not sure that things work the same in the Swedish legal system as in the US system either.

       

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    zipdrivedaddy, Jan 29th, 2008 @ 5:51pm

    doesn`t it all boil down to"you can`t put the tothpaste back in the tube"?
    onward through the fog!!

     

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    mike allen, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 12:37am

    To Corey

    First Corey Im a Bradcaster if I make a voice over or advert I DONT get paid over and over i get a flat fee.
    Now let us look at copyright and its original intentions were to STOP one auther claiming someone elses work as his own. That i dont think anyone disagrees with Same with song and music writing. It was not intended to prevent you as a owner of a COPY of a work doing what you want to do with that copy.

    Music industry records a artist singing or playing a song or music they then have the artist or musician tied up in such a contract that the company keep all copyright money the artists get nothing for their work. IS THAT RIGHT? NO.
    it is time for a new business model and time for the artist to be the winner but the RECORD COMPANIES DONT WANT TO STOP SCREWING EVERYONE FROM THEIR ARTISTS TO CUSTOMERS. this is not new its gone on for years. only now artists are begining to realise they DONT NEED THE CHEATS and customers are finding the same.

     

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    Killer_Tofu (profile), Jan 30th, 2008 @ 5:50am

    Re Corey

    Corey you are seeming quite debunked by now. You still have yet to offer a single case of evidence. You claim that they are citing specific cases, well you still need to cite at least one. All you have offered so far is "this is how it will be". No evidence. No proof. Just stubbornness.

    All evidence argues against you. And the natural forces in the market do too.

    Mike already pointed out the flaw in your "need to get out there and be known" argument (again you stated with no proof). Why not offer it for free to everyone? Then tons more people will know who you are. Makes perfect logical sense. Wouldn't you want everyone to know who you are? Easiest path to do that is to give it away to everyone.

    How many times were you asked for evidence above yet you haven't given any yet? Like 5 times?
    Well, unless you offer actual real life support and not just "this is how it is" arguments, you are getting ignored.

     

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      Corey, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 8:07am

      Re: Re Corey

      Its not stubbornness, its common logic that everyone except the techies on boards like this and a very few "intellectuals" know and agree with.

      For a few examples, people putting their work out for free helped them. I'm sure if you research it, you'll find many examples where it did not help (I'm not going to waste my time doing this for you). And in this case we are talking about unknowns. What if copied and sold your own Harry Potter books. Is that getting them more exposure? No, everyone has heard about Harry Potter, all you would be doing is competing with the author and her publisher and taking money from them. Unfairly I might add, because you didn't have to spent time writing the book, pay for editors, cover design, etc.

       

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        Anonymous Coward, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 11:53am

        Re: Re: Re Corey

        Meanwhile you utterly failed to produce a single shred of compelling evidences to back up what you say. Heck, you don't even try.

        It SHOULD BE EASY FOR YOU to dispute what I and others say with real world counterexamples.

        Your "logic" won't cut it. You must be able to show and demonstrate that is the case.

         

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          Corey, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 1:17pm

          Re: Re: Re: Re Corey

          I have an example above. Since p2p file sharing, music sales have gone down.

          And I'm done responding to you. Its not very hard to understand that one business model doesn't work for everything, or do you not understand "logic".

          I suppose you think car makers should give you free cars because they can charge you for upgrades.

           

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            Anonymous Coward, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 4:06pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Re Corey

            Mike of Techdirt already propose business models that took advantage of it and shown example of musicians that realize how they can take advantage of such technologies.

            You also have to explain why p2p is a bad thing for the economy. Since you are so knowledgeable on this, I expect you to show me empirical evidence that suggest the economic productivity of the music industry has dropped due to filesharing.

            Cars on the hand are something scarce and valuable to a lot of people. So you can sell cars just as you can sell books.

            Please note that I never say that some things should be free of cost. I am a big believer that you must have the freedom to sell something at any price that you want. If you want to sell digital musics, fine with me. I just don't think it is advisable to do so.

             

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              Willton, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 9:55pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re Corey

              Mike of Techdirt already propose business models that took advantage of it and shown example of musicians that realize how they can take advantage of such technologies.

              No, he's shown how this works for performers. He has not shown how this is beneficial to those who create the content but do not perform it (i.e. songwriters).

              You also have to explain why p2p is a bad thing for the economy. Since you are so knowledgeable on this, I expect you to show me empirical evidence that suggest the economic productivity of the music industry has dropped due to filesharing.

              And in the same token, you should be expected to profer evidence on how p2p file-sharing is good for the economy. We're all waiting.

              Cars on the hand are something scarce and valuable to a lot of people. So you can sell cars just as you can sell books.

              There's a fundamental disconnect in this analogy: the car-designers are employed by the car-manufacturers; authors are not employed by publishers or printers.

              Also, cars are not easy and cheap to copy. Books and other writings are. That's why copyright protection is essential to authors looking to make a living at what they do.

              Please note that I never say that some things should be free of cost. I am a big believer that you must have the freedom to sell something at any price that you want. If you want to sell digital musics, fine with me. I just don't think it is advisable to do so.

              So by extension, you in fact do say that music should be free of cost, or at least recorded music should be. Hmm, perhaps you should at least maintain some consistency within a paragraph.

              Well, like I've said before, if recorded music, as expensive as it is to make, is to be free, then there is not much incentive to create the recording in the first place. Oh sure, you say that the music is advertising for the performance, but if it is, then why spend the exhorbinant amounts of money recording it in clean detail? Hell, if it's just advertising, why record more than just 3 songs? "Listen to these 3 songs and come see our show!"

              The reason music artists record albums is so that they may be sold. If they are not to be sold anymore, why create the album?

               

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                Mike (profile), Jan 31st, 2008 @ 3:14am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re Corey

                No, he's shown how this works for performers. He has not shown how this is beneficial to those who create the content but do not perform it (i.e. songwriters).

                Actually, I've discussed how it benefits songwriters in great detail. Again, it's a reputation business, and the stronger your reputation is the more you can charge for your songwriting skills.

                And in the same token, you should be expected to profer evidence on how p2p file-sharing is good for the economy. We're all waiting.

                That's not hard. We've already shown how just about every aspect of the music business (other than selling plastic discs) is on the upswing. We've also seen that file sharing has improved software distribution, allowing for greater productivity and economic growth, and how it's improved demand for telecom services and broadband -- which have also contributed greatly to economic growth.


                There's a fundamental disconnect in this analogy: the car-designers are employed by the car-manufacturers; authors are not employed by publishers or printers.


                Not now. But that's one model that could occur (though, certainly not the only one).

                Also, cars are not easy and cheap to copy. Books and other writings are. That's why copyright protection is essential to authors looking to make a living at what they do.

                That's a fundamental myth again. Easy to copy doesn't mean that the originator loses the ability to sell their goods. In fact, if you look at the studies, you see the opposite. Again, I'll point out that Verdi produced a lot more work when he had no copyright protection than when he did -- because when he did, he had less incentive to keep producing. The problem is that you seem to think people should be forever compensated for one bit of work. I think the model makes more sense when you're encouraged to keep creating.

                And, as for easily copied works, the publishers of the 9/11 commission report, which had no copyright, shows that being first to market matters. The first publisher made the bulk of money on sales of the report, even though other publishers had their copies out within a day. Don't assume that just because something is easy to copy that it means you can't still be the leader in the market.

                Besides, being easy to copy just means you should look to tie it to things that *aren't* easy to copy, such as the ability to produce future works. Want people to buy the "official" copy of your book? Why not include a coupon with the book that gives them the opportunity to buy your next book at a discount? Or perhaps to get a chance to meet you at a personal book signing. That's just off the top of my head and there are many more models where that comes from.

                Well, like I've said before, if recorded music, as expensive as it is to make, is to be free, then there is not much incentive to create the recording in the first place.

                You'd have a much stronger case if there wasn't the very real case study of the world we live in today: all music is essentially available for free (yes, illegally) and yet more music is being created today than ever before. So your claim that the incentive goes away is bogus. Why? Because those musicians are adopting new business models that seem to work much better than the old ones.

                Oh sure, you say that the music is advertising for the performance, but if it is, then why spend the exhorbinant amounts of money recording it in clean detail?

                Because the better the quality, the more likely it is to find fans?

                Hell, if it's just advertising, why record more than just 3 songs? "Listen to these 3 songs and come see our show!"

                Are you seriously asking that question? You want to keep your fans happy, you want to keep them engaged. The more songs they know about, the more they're likely to be interested in your concerts. This isn't a difficult concept.

                The reason music artists record albums is so that they may be sold. If they are not to be sold anymore, why create the album?

                No. That's simply wrong. Sure, it may be the reason why some artists record albums, but there's no business model to support that any more. The reason buggy whip makers made buggy whips was to sell them, but that business model went away.

                As for the reason to create an album, isn't it obvious? It's to make all those other business models more valuable.

                 

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                  Corey, Jan 31st, 2008 @ 7:35am

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re Corey

                  OK, this is my last post on this topic, because I know some of you will never get it, but I have to make a brief response to Mike.

                  First, your examples are just that, examples. It certainly does not mean they will work for every artist or in every industry. Its worked for smaller bands to get the word out. Do you think an artist the size of Sting benefits? When someone reaches that point, people have hear of them, piracy just cuts into their market (or have we decided that its OK to steal from someone if they are successful enough?). And it won't work for every industry - you seem to forget that some things have a finite market.

                  Second, by you using Verdi as an example of no copyright being an incentive to produce more work proves my point, not yours. If lack of copyright was the reason he needed to produce more, then you acknowledge he lost money on the original work because of lack of copyright. Yeah, great for the market that he produced more, but when we're talking about products that take a long time to produces (like history books, which can take years of research), that extra loss of profit will be enough to end the career of many authors (most history books barely cover the costs of research as it is).

                  Third, do you think you are that much smarter then EVERYONE. Record companies, movie studios, and publishers have people whose job it is to tie these products to other products and make more money. That's their job and that's all they do. For some movies merchandising can be very successful, for others not so much (I'm still waiting for my Bridges to Madison County action figures). And as far as authors go, you really show your lack of knowledge. Except for celebrity authors and the biggest authors, book signings do not draw that many people. They are good for overall promotion of the book, but many many authors don't even break even on signing when you take into account the cost of travel. If there were all of these great business models to make more money off of books, don't you think someone at these publishing houses, whose job it is to market a book, would have come up with it. (and again one or two examples won't work - it doesn't help if 10% of authors will benefit from giving their book away if 90% suffer.)

                  If someone writes a book on Jesse James for example, there is a small niche market fr that book. If it gets reviewed well in True West, Wild West, etc, most if the audience that book appeals to will hear about it. Giving it away for free or letting other publishers publish it themselves only cuts into FINITE market for the book and cuts the original publisher's (who invested in the book) and author's profits.

                   

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                  Willton, Jan 31st, 2008 @ 8:14am

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re Corey

                  Actually, I've discussed how it benefits songwriters in great detail. Again, it's a reputation business, and the stronger your reputation is the more you can charge for your songwriting skills.

                  And by suggesting such a model, you clearly have no idea how songwriters earn an income. Songwriters get paid royalties based on how much their songs sell or are performed. They do not create works for hire. Songwriters are not employees of a record company, and they are not on a payroll. Instead they are paid based on how well their works perform.

                  Why is it done this way? Because that is the most inexpensive and fair way to pay songwriters. Record companies should not have to purchase the works of a songwriter without knowing whether the work will be popular. Your model of how a songwriter should get paid does not account for the unpredictability of product performance. A record company does not and should not have to pay for songs up front without knowing how they will perform in the market, but that's what your model proposes. Your model kills the occupation of the songwriter, and that does not "promote the Progress of ... the useful Arts." See U.S. Constitution, Art. I, Sec. 8 Cl. 8.

                  Songwriters should only get paid based on the merit of their work, not the merit of their reputation.

                  "There's a fundamental disconnect in this analogy: the car-designers are employed by the car-manufacturers; authors are not employed by publishers or printers."

                  Not now. But that's one model that could occur (though, certainly not the only one).


                  And that model would fail, because publishers and printers are not going to pay an author to punch a clock. Nor are publishers and printers going to pay upfront for the ownership of a manuscript when they don't know at the outset the popularity of the book.

                  What you seem to fail to understand is that the writing business, beit music or literary works, is a meritocracy: the authors get paid for the quality of their work, not the quality of their reputation.

                  That's a fundamental myth again. Easy to copy doesn't mean that the originator loses the ability to sell their goods. In fact, if you look at the studies, you see the opposite. Again, I'll point out that Verdi produced a lot more work when he had no copyright protection than when he did -- because when he did, he had less incentive to keep producing.

                  Easy to copy means that the originator loses a substantial ability to sell his goods.

                  I don't know what studies you're talking about, but I'm going to guess they are in limited contexts, much like your Verdi example. However, take a look at the history of movable type and the printing press and how it greatly benefited printers but provided no benefit to authors. Also, take a long look at the history of the Copyright Act and figure out why it was drafted in the first place. After all, if all you say is true and an author does not lose a substantial economic incentive to create if the creation is difficult to make but easy to copy, then why was the Copyright Act put in place to begin with?

                  The problem is that you seem to think people should be forever compensated for one bit of work.

                  No, I think people should be compensated justly for their one bit of work. If that one bit of work ends up being hugely popular for a long period of time, then the author should be justly rewarded for that product's popularity.

                  I think the model makes more sense when you're encouraged to keep creating.

                  And that's the way it currently is. The more works you create, the more money you stand to make.

                  And, as for easily copied works, the publishers of the 9/11 commission report, which had no copyright, shows that being first to market matters. The first publisher made the bulk of money on sales of the report, even though other publishers had their copies out within a day. Don't assume that just because something is easy to copy that it means you can't still be the leader in the market.

                  Sure, I buy the first-to-market theory. The problem with your example is that the first publisher of the 9/11 commission report did actually copy it -- from a public file. The original publisher did not create the subject matter, and the original publisher certainly did not spend much money trying to acquire the subject matter. Further, the publisher does not owe any money to the creator of the file, which is the U.S. Government. This example has no bearing on a situation where the original content is difficult and expensive to create and the publisher and author have to clear a substantial amount of overhead cost.

                  Besides, being easy to copy just means you should look to tie it to things that *aren't* easy to copy, such as the ability to produce future works. Want people to buy the "official" copy of your book? Why not include a coupon with the book that gives them the opportunity to buy your next book at a discount? Or perhaps to get a chance to meet you at a personal book signing. That's just off the top of my head and there are many more models where that comes from.

                  Yes, but that loses sight of where the fundamental value lies: in the created product itself. Why should an author have to hawk extraneous stuff, like paraphernalia or public appearances, so that he can make money when the thing of most value is the item he creates? How many John Grisham readers in the United States really want a chance to meet John Grisham? My guess is about half, and I'm willing to bet that even fewer would be willing to pay to do so. The real value lies in the books he writes, not the paraphernalia that is extraneous to it.

                  You'd have a much stronger case if there wasn't the very real case study of the world we live in today: all music is essentially available for free (yes, illegally) and yet more music is being created today than ever before. So your claim that the incentive goes away is bogus. Why? Because those musicians are adopting new business models that seem to work much better than the old ones.

                  Ah, but they still do get copyright protection on their music, do they not? And they still go after the infringers, do they not? And I do know that most musicians try to make it extremely difficult to easily copy their works. So to me, it sounds like musicians still have an incentive to prevent other people from easily copying their works.

                  Are you seriously asking that question? You want to keep your fans happy, you want to keep them engaged. The more songs they know about, the more they're likely to be interested in your concerts. This isn't a difficult concept.

                  It certainly isn't, and I'd buy that argument if albums were not so damn expensive to make. If popular musicians actually had to foot the bill for the cost of making their albums, they'd have a big problem with giving them away for free. However, record companies pay for the production of the album, and that is why they are ones who have a problem of giving the album away for free. And if they knew they had to give them away for free while paying for the cost of recording, I promise you that the quality of recording would go down so that musicians for the sake of lowering costs.

                  As for the reason to create an album, isn't it obvious? It's to make all those other business models more valuable.

                  If that's the case, I would not expect to see much recording going on, especially at the high price it costs.

                   

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                    Willton, Jan 31st, 2008 @ 8:22am

                    Editing

                    And if they knew they had to give them away for free while paying for the cost of recording, I promise you that the quality of recording would go down so that musicians for the sake of lowering costs.

                    Should read "I promise you that the quality of recording would go down for the sake of lowering costs."

                     

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    Debunked, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 6:19am

    Corey Tip

    Mike quote:
    "Actually, if you look at the research, intellectual monopolies can have an even larger negative impact."


    Corey, Mike jumps freely from one intellectual property rights to another with very little distinction and often undifferentiated in the same sentence or argument. The vast majority of the research that he quotes deal with patents and IMHO have very little to do him theorizing that a little old songwriter like myself would-in some long and convoluted chain of logic- harm the world by writing a song.

    Also, I would add that on the theoretical economics side the authors he quotes are hardly universally accepted as theorists and are strongly disputed by many think tanks and other authors.

     

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    Alimas, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 6:43am

    In The End

    You can't prevent piracy. Any "intellectual property" provided to the public can be cracked, ripped, copied, decrypted and whatever else, due to the fact that in order to sell the media, your customer must be able to use it, which means it will at some point show its unblocked self.
    On top of that, we live in a capitalist society where everyones on a life-long mission to get more for less. So, in more cases than not, people are inclined to take something for free if they can avoid paying for it (either in cash or jail time). As a result, P2P is really popular and its not leaving.
    Like it or not, whether anyone believes P2P is legal or not, the music industry is going to have to change its business model, as will likely other companies that deal in "intellectual property".

    While I'm at it, I think copyright law should simply protect an artist's or creator's claim to having created a particular work, not restrict sales or distribution. For example a guy writes a book, another man copies it and starts selling it himself. Man1 can't stop Man2 from selling the copies, but Man2 is legally bound to clearly credit Man1 as the material's artist. In the end, both would probably profit, but Man1 more so as interest in getting his original works now and future will spread fast.

    And thats my few pennies.

     

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    Debunked, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 9:33am

    Exactly

    Corey quote:
    "If everyone giving away all of their content for free worked, they'd be doing it, but it works for some kinds of content, but not for others."

    That is the crux of the matter and IMHO the discussions here need to winnow out more of the nuances and rules of what and where and how giving away for free works (an option that has always been available) and also when it does not work.

    The iron-fisted inflexible mantra exhibited by some here is that there is a grand transcendent unifying theory of the free which looks like some singular law of physics that would describe every action or state of the universe. The insistence on this grand unifying theory leads to very little learning or new knowledge created to the present.

    Corey, your above statement provides a working theory that will allow learning to occur. I remain optimistic that real learning can begin here on this site in the future.

     

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    SomeGuy, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 12:20pm

    Re: Corey

    I'm buried well down in here -- *I* got bored reading before making it this far -- but... I think it's a very important point that Mike makes when he says, "yeah, other publishers can copy your FIRST book, but that will only increase demand for your second."

    I mean, that's kind of the point, isn't it? You write a well-written, well-researched book, people read it, and you get a good reputation. Then you work off of that reputation. You will ALWAYS be the first to market because no one can copy it before you print it. After getting it out there, anything else become more advertising for you and your reputation, and now you're THIRD book is in even more demand. And maybe you start to get famous, and people invite you for interviews and to give Commencement speeches and stuff.

    What you DO as an author is produce content, but that doesn't have to be what you SELL. If you're good at what you do, if people come to know and respect you, there will be other ways of making money. This goes for bands, yes, but I think ESPECIALLY for authors because there are so many out there, all appealing to small little groups and niche interests, and you have to reach far and wide to find your audience, and once you've found them you have to stand out from the crowd.

    Free content is not a PR stunt, it's marketing. More people participating in free-content models will not lessen the effect of reaching more people.

     

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      Corey, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 1:13pm

      Re: Re: Corey

      What you say is nice in theory but won't always translate to the market. Giving software away for free works if there will be a demand for upgrades, etc.

      I know a lot of successful authors and you know what, they don't make all that much money. If it was so easy to come up with some other business model, don't you think this would have been done already so mare authors could make decent money?

      This theory you guys are pushing only works if there is an infinite market. Some products are only going to have so much demand for them, why are you guys ignoring it. So others producing your exact product will only cut into that market, not expand it.

       

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    SomeGuy, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 12:25pm

    And just to make another point....

    It's worth noting, I think, that, perhaps, printing a book -- hardcover or otherwise -- is not *necessarily* the best way to start with this model. There are lots of cheap ways to publish these days -- off the top of my head, write it up as a PDF and send it around to your friends, whore it on some blogs, whatever. People who like books like *books*, and I for one will gleefully buy a hardcover copy of something I like even if I already have other copies of the same content elsewhere. once you get a reputation and get some exposure, then you can start leveraging that to sell other products (and services) -- like the hard-cover editions fans will end up wanting.

     

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      Corey, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 1:23pm

      Re: And just to make another point....

      Book are not the best example now, but what if 5-10 years form now the majority of readers don't buy books, but instead choose ebooks on some device.

      I'm sorry, there are just not that many other products of services for most authors to sell that will make them a 10th of the money the book sales do.And please don't start shouting out examples of exceptions - we all know authors of good economic books can get corporate speaking engagements. But what about the person who writes a novel that sells 10,000 copies? There's usually not much of a market for an author of this popularity for paid speaking engagements, and what other services would they sell? Selling themselves as a writer for companies. Then you're taking working authors and giving them dayjob, reducing the number of books they write, and hurting the consumer.

      Why is it so hard to understand that books, music, and movies are products in themselves? Giving everything away free does not work for EVERY BUSINESS.

       

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    Gary, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 2:30pm

    Because they're idiots.

     

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    Gary, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 2:30pm

    "So why does the entertainment industry keep doing

    "So why does the entertainment industry keep doing this?"

    Because they're idiots.

     

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    Willton, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 3:59pm

    Why we have copyrights

    What some people don't understand is why the copyright exists in the first place. It basically revolves around a simple truth: when something is extremely expensive and difficult to produce yet extremely easy and cheap to copy, there is little economic incentive to produce the thing in the first place. So I ask those of you calling for an abolishment of copyright law: are you willing to sacrifice the creation of a large portion of that content so that what little creation is left be freely available?

     

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    Lucretious, Jan 30th, 2008 @ 8:32pm

    The term is "hitting mercury with a hammer".

     

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    Lambda, Jan 31st, 2008 @ 3:45am

    The Indictment is ready

    Today the indictment was made official and with that the details. Given that they've taken 1.5 years to investigate TPB, the indictments are quite miniscule - 20 music albums, 9 movies and 4 computer games. And the prosecutor is demanding 1.2 million kronor ($190,000) in damages.

    The list of the infringing material in the indictment can be found here: http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=3130&a=738369

     

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    Debunked, Jan 31st, 2008 @ 8:56am

    Excellent Points

    Excellent arguments Corey and Willton. While I may not agree on every point, you both advance the discussion in a fluid manner.

    It amazes me when Mike will presume to know so much about something like songwriters (my field) and their behavior. Has he gotten on the phone like a reporter and called a songwriter or two?

    When well informed posters like Corey and Willton above refute Mike's theory with man on the ground accuracy, Mike refuses to listen. It seems to me that the lack of flexibility that Mike is exhibiting by refusing to learn (the exact opposite of the scientific method) from evidence that is contrary to his theory is exactly parallel to the inflexiblity that he rants about in the RIAA and the MPAA.

    How ironic.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 1st, 2008 @ 9:39am

    Well, don't bands get paid before they're a "known quantity"? They sign a record deal and get paid for making the music before anyone knows how well their songs will do or how their live shows will sell.

    And even at that, why *can't* songwriters be part of a band, or employed by a record label. If nothing else, it would give something that a Label could offer artists, especially with the costs of production coming down. "Sign with us and you can have access to songs written by X."

     

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    Adela, Feb 2nd, 2008 @ 1:50am

    business model

    I think the new business model is quite simple. Make money from touring as has happened through most of recorded human history. Use recorded music as marketing material to get people to come to concerts. Musicians don't make tens of millions but only millions. Was that so difficult?

     

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      Corey, Feb 2nd, 2008 @ 4:39pm

      Re: business model

      Just to correct one thing you said - most musicians, even thouse signed and promoted by record companies, do not make millions. Musicians do not make as much as most people think.

       

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    Adela, Feb 2nd, 2008 @ 2:02am

    business model

    As for the songwriters, again as through the whole of recorded human history, they can sell their songs to performers for a market price or they can perform them themselves.

    Also - fantastic albums can be made for a few thousand these days with the digital recording technology available. How about downloading the software from Pirate Bay for a start to save money lol

     

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    Richard, Jan 27th, 2009 @ 11:45am

    business model...

    Also, remember, that labels make the money from record sales- the artist makes the majority of their money touring. this is a profound point, once you understand it.

     

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    brian sirs, Feb 20th, 2009 @ 6:47am

    industry hipocracy - aiding & abetting - conspiracy to defraud

    the industry that creates the product
    also creates the means to copy the product
    and sells it to us?
    then penalises us for using that product?
    multinational industry`s are making billions from d.v.d. & c.d. writers & computers.
    but make no repriation to the artists,poets, musicians, or software games designers, that lose a certain percentage of their sales.
    it`s not the scapegoats you want
    it`s the makers of the scapegoats
    beware of the cult of the mutilated corpse???

     

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    aaa, Mar 10th, 2009 @ 12:23pm

    a a a

     

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    rebelliousteen, Mar 30th, 2009 @ 8:26pm

    wondering

    Here is the debate in my head, if I do not have to pay for something, why would I? I have 6000 songs in my iTunes, the majority from PTP, but without P2P, I would only have 1000 songs. No one will risk paying 30 dollars for a CD (plus bonus crap that no one wants) that does not have a glowing review or critical praise, but if they get it for free, they will listen to the whole album.

    Maybe they will love it, maybe they will hate it, either way, this CD is getting played in a circumstance when it normally would not. Who knows, maybe I loved it so much, i will go to the concert and shell out 30 dollars for a t-shirt that cost a dollar to produce?

    As the prime example of a music pirate, I need to give some praise to iTunes for making CD's affordable. I love getting gift cards for presents and browsing the 0.99 cent songs, which i would call a fair deal. Stores that revolve around selling hard copies of CDs are going bankrupt everywhere because they are selling discs at pricing that the market does not support.

     

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    Someone, May 11th, 2009 @ 5:35pm

    I love thepiratebay more then most of my family lmfao.

     

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