Ohio University Says No File Sharing Allowed

from the throwing-out-the-baby-with-the-bathwater dept

While some universities have fought back against RIAA complaints about their students using file sharing for making unauthorized copies of content, it appears that Ohio University is going to the opposite extreme. Slashdot points out that the university has announced that all P2P file sharing is banned as of this coming Friday. The university gives a variety of reasons for it and seems to bounce back and forth between rationales. It may be because file sharing could overwhelm network resources, though they give no indication that current file sharing systems have actually been a problem -- just that it could be a problem. Then they claim that file sharing could transmit bad stuff like viruses and spyware. Of course, so can email and the web, but the university doesn't appear to be banning the use of either of those things. Then, finally, the university brings up the real reason for the ban. Apparently, staff at the university are sick of dealing with those new prelitigation letters from the RIAA. Rather than following in the footsteps of the University of Nebraska and sending the RIAA a bill for time wasted, Ohio University has decided it's best to just ban P2P apps altogether. Of course, while they have a "partial list" of banned apps, the description is so vague, it's unclear what might get you kicked off the university network. Something like Skype is P2P and uses up bandwidth -- so based on some of the university's reasoning, it too should be banned. It's a sad statement of the times that an institution designed for educating and learning about new things would decide to completely shut off any use of powerful technologies that have plenty of perfectly legitimate uses just because some backwards industry group can't figure out how to change its outdated business models.


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  1.  
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    Prophet, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 1:49am

    How exactly have they propsed to shut this down. Where theres a will theres a workaround.

     

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  2.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 1:51am

    My university, as well as all of the different universitys my friends go to, block all P2P activity. Why the hell aren't we mentioned. I feel left out.

     

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  3.  
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    Prophet, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 2:06am

    How do they do this, Port blocking ?

     

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  4.  
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    Charles Griswold, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 2:06am

    Re:

    My university, as well as all of the different universitys my friends go to, block all P2P activity. Why the hell aren't we mentioned. I feel left out.

    Whatever universities those are, consider them mentioned.

     

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  5.  
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    Cixelsid, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 2:45am

    Re:

    Good question. With protocol encryption and HTTP tunneling, how exactly would they be able to discern P2P traffic from other net activity? Seems like more of the same tech morons making laws they can't enforce.

     

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  6.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 4:17am

    In their "frequently asked questions" I notice they list Gnutella, which isn't a program, as one of their banned programs. On the other hand, e-mule seems to be in the clear. What do you want to bet that they will be retroactively applying after-the-fact rule changes to bring charges against students? And don't forget that even browsing a web site involves peer-to-peer communications.

     

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    rush, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 4:22am

    Sounds like a good move to me....

     

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    Skippy, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 4:30am

    Business Policies

    I agree, universities should embrace the free flow of new ideas and communication. However, I think we can agree that the majority of college students don't use P2P programs for class work, but rather to get new content for their iPod. A university is a business and needs to have policies that prevent the undermining of it's goals, i.e. a good education for each student. If P2P is slowing the network, or perhaps bringing it to a screeching halt, I don't blame them for blocking the software. If students used it in a responsible way, they wouldn't be making the ban. How many people go to work everyday at any major corporation and use P2P software all day long? Unless I'm sadly mistaken, no one. And it is because those businesses and more mindful of having a successful business with successful employees, rather than if their employees can download stolen content all day long. I see the university situation the same way.

     

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    The infoamous Joe, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 4:35am

    Re: Business Policies

    Good call, but some of us DO go home and use p2p after work.

    I don't think they're so worried about kids doing it in class, but in dorm rooms. Ya know, after or before class-- where they live.

    Saying that it could be a bandwidth problem tell me that currently, it isn't.

    It seems to me that someone who didn't know what they were talking about came up with this, and when it doesn't work, hey, they tried.

     

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    Skippy, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 4:57am

    Re: Re: Business Policies

    Right. I was referring to the use of P2P in the residence halls, where they live. That is the main problem, because students go to their rooms, begin to use P2P, and then bring the network down. It often happens that when students move into the halls at the beginning of the Fall semester, they'll bring down the network for the first three-four days using P2P and then realize "hey, our network isn't fast enough for this." It happens at any university that hasn't upgraded it's network infrastructure in years (which is most of them). The best solution for the students would be for OU to upgrade the network so it can handle traffic that exceeds P2P usage. However, tuition is already high enough, so the students definitely shouldn't pay more and in a state like Ohio, there is barely any state funding to begin with. The solution? Regulate the bandwidth.

     

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    Sneeje, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 5:19am

    Ummm, who cares?

    The network belongs to the University, so I think they can do pretty much whatever they want and no one really has a legitimate reason to complain, unless we're going to start saying that the infrastructure of large organizations really belongs to the public or should be subject to any use as long as it can be argued that it is a public good.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 5:19am

    Re: Re: Re: Business Policies

    Regulate bandwidth you say?

    More than likely the people pushing for this ban would call themselves doing just that. Please explain how to regulate bandwidth. A monthly cap? Pay as you go like cell phone based internet?

     

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    Jellybelly, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 5:21am

    Re: Re: Re: Business Policies

    Actually when napster almost brought down OU's network about 4 or 5 years ago they implemented packet shaping so that things like this is almost impossible to happen now. so that is just a excuse blowing in the wind. As soon as it looks like something is going to overwhelm the network that protocol is throttled back so it can only at most use 25% of it.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 5:41am

    get your own connection

    Will this new rule affect the students ability to purchase broadband service from a third-party provider?

     

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    Geeb, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 6:15am

    Re: Re:

    > Seems like more of the same tech morons making laws they can't enforce.

    Fortunately (for them) they don't have to bother with messy details like actually enforcing a ban - they just need to be able to point out that they have a ban in place, so that they can't be accused of being complicit when the RIAA starts suing.

    More cover-your-ass mentality...

     

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  16.  
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    Strofcon, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 6:15am

    A silver lining, if you look hard enough

    Though an admittedly slight benefit, I suppose one "plus" to the ban is the fact that the RIAA will be deprived of frivolous lawsuits and 'prelitigation' idiocy against Ohio University's students. I like the University of Nebraska's approach a bit better, but hey, if a school's actions help choke off the RIAA (whether that is their intention or not) I'm at least glad that their move has that effect. The negatives may very well outweigh the positives, of course, but I guess we have to look for the silver lining regardless.

     

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  17.  
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    haywood, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 6:43am

    How's this for a work-around?

    Get a large directional wireless internet antenna and point it at the nearest neighborhood. Free internet, no restrictions.

     

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  18.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 7:02am

    P2P and "How they gunna do it"

    To "Anon coward" above, websites are not p2p, by definition p2p is many to many, a website is one to many.

    And to prophet and Cixelsid, they do it by stateful packet filtering. Each packet is identified by more than just the intended port, they also look at the header and the data type.

    And to all. Yes, I steal music, I know it's wrong. but I still do it. Don't dilute yourself into thinking you're not doing anything wrong when you get something without paying for it, because you are. These Universities are doing exactly what they should, they're trying to make sure people who use their resources aren't using them to steal.

     

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  19.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 7:11am

    And to all. Yes, I steal music, I know it's wrong. but I still do it.

    So, you go to a store and five-finger-discount a CD? That's stealing.

    Downloading music: Illegal? Usually. Stealing? No.

    MAFIAA black propaganda has infected you, #20. Fight back. Learn.

     

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  20.  
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    Apennismightier, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 7:30am

    HTTPTUNNEL

    HTTPTunnel is your friend. Good downloading all Ohio Staters.

     

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  21.  
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    Erv, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 7:33am

    won't stop anything

    if this an attempt to stop the downloading of illegal music/movies it will be a failure.There are plenty of work arounds for this.

     

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  22.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 7:55am

    im not in the US and RIAA or MPAA aren't an issue here but at the Uni I was in all they had to do is set a traffic limitation.

    with that student will have to stop using there P2P appz.

    Looks to me there move was for political reasons.

     

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  23.  
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    Brad, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 7:58am

    I love the term

    It's not sharing if the product is copied. It's not sharing if the author of the content doesn't receive compensation. It's stealing.

    Forget the whiny arguments about how taking copies of music you didn't pay actually "help" the record companies by introducing new customers -- that's a business model decision.

    How a creator of content chooses to license their work is not a decision the public gets to make for them. Many authors / artists post their works for free -- sometimes deriving ad revenue from the viewing of the content. Others choose to only publish in physical form. Still others choose a DRM option as a convenience to consumers (and to reduce production costs).

    In all cases the author and publisher decide what the price, if any, is for access to that content.

    Until artists / authors who choose to make a living from their craft can be certain they're being rewarded for their efforts this battle will continue.

    I find the "sharing" crowd disingenuous -- "I want it free, and over time that's a better deal for the author" isn't their call to make.

    I suggest you all work for free today. Your employer would just be "sharing" your labor.

     

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  24.  
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    Brad, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 8:03am

    Re:

    And to all. Yes, I steal music, I know it's wrong. but I still do it.

    So, you go to a store and five-finger-discount a CD? That's stealing.

    Downloading music: Illegal? Usually. Stealing? No.

    MAFIAA black propaganda has infected you, #20. Fight back. Learn.

    Explain to me oh wise one, how downloading and not paying for it is NOT stealing? You're deriving full benefit as if you stole the physical product, and your depriving the artist of due compensation. Is your contention that since it's not a physical product that it can't be "stolen"? You're wrong. You've done harm to the artist. You've taken something without paying for it. How much clearer can it be?

    You're a

     

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  25.  
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    Joe, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 8:10am

    Re: P2P and

    Don't dilute (sic) yourself into thinking you're not doing anything wrong when you get something without paying for it, because you are.

    This is why you feel so guilty when you breathe?

    And I'll have you know I haven't "diluted" myself since I was in my early teens ...

     

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  26.  
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    YouKnowNothing, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 8:18am

    Re: Re:

    "You're deriving full benefit as if you stole the physical product..."

    But I didn't steal it; I made a copy of it without the permission of the copyright holder. That's called copyright infringement and isn't the same as stealing. You don't agree? Well tough shit, the SCOTUS agrees that copyright infringement and stealing aren't the same thing (see DOWLING v. UNITED STATES, 473 U.S. 207 (1985)).

    "...and your depriving the artist of due compensation."

    Maybe. But if I never intended to buy it in the first place, then I haven't deprived the artist of anything. Also, by your logic, if I hear a song on the radio then I've deprived the artist of compensation.

    "Is your contention that since it's not a physical product that it can't be "stolen"? You're wrong."

    I'm not wrong. See SCOTUS decision above.

    "You've done harm to the artist. You've taken something without paying for it. How much clearer can it be?"

    Just because you keep repeating something doesn't make it true. I've only harmed the artist if I intended to buy the CD but made an unauthorized copy of it instead. With your logic, every time I convinced one of my friends to by an iMac instead of a PC then I've harmed MicroSoft and owe them money. Everytime I go see the latest James Bond film but not the latest Jason Bourne film I've harmed the producers of 'The Bourne Supremacy' and owe them money. How much clearer can it be?

     

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  27.  
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    John, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 8:39am

    suggestion!

    They should try GigaTribe (at http://www.gigatribe.com ); it's still relatively unknown (so not likely to be on their list) and it encrypts all exchanges!

     

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  28.  
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    The infamous Joe, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 8:45am

    Call me Oh Wise One.

    I agree with everything YouKnowNothing says and would like to help you understand the difference between the two, Brad.

    If you were holding a lit candle and I came over and used your candle to light my candle, I have not stolen your fire. If you claimed that you had the sole rights to who can use your flame, then I may have infringed upon your rights as the one who controls the flame. In any event, there's twice as much light, now, and you haven't actually lost anything but a little control.

    Summed up: You have a choice, to share the light, or be a controlling flamer.

    Your call, pal. ;P

     

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  29.  
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    Jared, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 12:37pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    Your logic really sucks, "YouKnowNothing". But anyway. Arguing the fine points of the language ove whether it's stealing or copyright infringement is pointless as it boils down to the same thing: They're both illegal.

    The analogy of hearing the song on the radio is just simply wrong. The Artists and the RIAA are getting compensated for the playing of the song on the radio. Not directly by you, as in a CD sale, but by the station who gets money from advertisers who in turn get money from the consumer.

    While the logic that every illegally downloaded song is harming the artist because it's a lost sale is faulty, it doesn't mean that a LOT of them aren't lost sales. I have been guilty of that in the past. I couldn't afford the CD so i downloaded it. If i had had the money, i would have bought it. Or even sometimes when i did have the money but just didn't feel like spending it when it was easier to download it for free. It's still wrong and still illegal. I don't do it anymore.

     

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  30.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 12:59pm

    vpns..

    ok my question.. filesharing banned right... well in order to 'share' a printer you have to have file sharing! could be wrong.

     

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  31.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 1:07pm

    Re: P2P and

    To "Anon coward" above, websites are not p2p, by definition p2p is many to many, a website is one to many.
    Hey Shill,
    You obviously know little about network systems. The whole internet is designed around a peer to peer network model (despite your bogus definition). In fact, two computers can communicate as peer to peer even if they are the only two computer on a network.

    Don't dilute yourself into thinking you're not doing anything wrong when you get something without paying for it, because you are.
    Ok then, how much did you pay Techdirt for the privilege of posting here? Nothing? Then you're a THIEF! You're STEALING! Call up the FBI and turn yourself in right now!

     

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  32.  
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    Mischa, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 1:10pm

    Re: Call me Oh Wise One.

    Hahaha.

    I like your analogy.

     

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  33.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 1:12pm

    Re: Re: Re: Business Policies

    However, tuition is already high enough, so the students definitely shouldn't pay more and in a state like Ohio, there is barely any state funding to begin with.
    Tuition and fees are high enough to pay for bandwidth already. The students should be getting more for their money than they are. That's what the university doesn't really want to admit and is trying to cover up.

     

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  34.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 1:18pm

    Re: Ummm, who cares?

    The network belongs to the University, so I think they can do pretty much whatever they want and no one really has a legitimate reason to complain...
    How about their customers, the students, who are paying for it?

     

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  35.  
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    James Stevens, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 1:19pm

    NOT Stealing...

    By law downloading unlicensed music or programs via P2P is copyright infringement, NOT stealing. Proven by a court case, so those saying it's stealing it's not becuz a court case already said it's copyright infringement.

    At my university, P2P ports are blocked so u can't use any P2P technologies. Tho I'm sure someone in IT needs P2P so I'm thinking there's a port open somewhere on the network, u just gotta find it.

    From 12am-1am P2P ports are actually left open so all the people I know in the dorms start downloading at midnight.

     

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  36.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 1:29pm

    Re: I love the term

    It's not sharing if the product is copied. It's not sharing if the author of the content doesn't receive compensation. It's stealing.
    Man, you shills just never give it a break, do ya? Don't your employers realize that people are catching on to astroturfing?

    Still others choose a DRM option as a convenience to consumers
    Ha ha ha ha! Thanks for the laugh, but you almost made me spill my coffee!

    I suggest you all work for free today. Your employer would just be "sharing" your labor.
    I wish your employer would stop sharing the fruits of your labor with us all.

     

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  37.  
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    Charles Griswold, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 4:21pm

    Re: Re: P2P and

    You obviously know little about network systems. The whole internet is designed around a peer to peer network model

    Your point seems to be that since the internet was designed to facilitate peer-to-peer connections then any connection on the internet must, ipso facto, be a peer-to-peer connection. That can be demonstrated to be false by the very fact of how web servers (the server) and web browsers (the client) work. The server serves up data, which it sends to the browser when requested to do so. The browser software should never serve information from the user's computer when requested to do so by an outside, unsolicited connection. That would be bad.

    Don't dilute yourself into thinking you're not doing anything wrong when you get something without paying for it, because you are.

    Ok then, how much did you pay Techdirt for the privilege of posting here? Nothing? Then you're a THIEF! You're STEALING! Call up the FBI and turn yourself in right now!

    Yeah, taking something (like the privilege of posting here) that the rightful owner is giving for free isn't stealing (or copyright infringement, or whatever), and anyone who says otherwise is a Stupid-Head (TM, patent pending). The previous poster should have thought that one through a little more.

     

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  38.  
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    Brad, Apr 27th, 2007 @ 5:08am

    YouKnowNothing's is a child...

    You're quote: "Maybe. But if I never intended to buy it in the first place, then I haven't deprived the artist of anything."

    You have the product don't you? And hiding behind "no I have a copy of the product is B.S."

    Hearing it on the radio isn't stealing (you child) because the radio us paying the author as are you when you hear their advertisments.

    As to the difference between copyright infringment and outright theft -- in this case there is little practical difference.

     

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  39.  
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    Brad, Apr 27th, 2007 @ 5:12am

    Infamous Joe

    You're flat out wrong. You've gained the benefit of my labor without paying for it. By "copying" music and listening to it, you're depriving the artist of due compensation.

    "YouKnowNothing's" argument "I didn't intend to buy it in the first place, so I've cost the author nothing" is also crap. I guess it's okay if he copies it and never listens to it. Other than that it's childish shit.

     

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  40.  
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    Joe, Apr 27th, 2007 @ 6:46am

    Ok, I'll bite ...

    ... though I should know better than to feed the trolls.

    ;^)

    So to all those defending the MAFIAA here, and claiming any way of listening to the song without SOMEBODY paying the artist is wrong and illegal .... why then can I tape songs off the radio onto a cassette deck legally?

    The next time I listen to the tape in my car, nobody gets paid. In fact, I can make 10 tapes of the same song off the radio and give those tapes to 10 friends, who never had to listen to the radio ads in the first place, and, according to the AHRA, its all perfectly legal.

    Why then is one (taping songs off radio and giving away) legal and right, and the other (downloading songs and sharing with others) illegal and wrong?

    I understand how one can be legal and not the other (knowing a little about how our government works), but I'd be interested to hear your bits of cognitive dissonance on how one is tantamount to "stealing" and the other is not ... or would you all prefer that every listening of a song be paid for, and the AHRA be repealed?

    By your logic, and based on copyright law, do you consider singing a song for 9 of your friends at your house to be "OK", while singing the same song for 10 of your friends at one of their houses to be effectively the same as "stealing"?

    (In case you're wondiering, under our legal system, the first is considered legal, the second is not ... )

    I might also point out that, by your "logic", buying a book from a used book store or taking it as a gift from a friend who has already read it is also "practically the same thing as stealing" (though obviously this is not copyright infringement, since no copies were made).

    Is this another practice you all feel should be made illegal?

    If not, why should this way of consuming art without payment going to the artist be OK and the other ways we're discussing be illegal?

     

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  41.  
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    YouKnowNothing, Apr 27th, 2007 @ 10:06am

    Re: YouKnowNothing's is a child...

    Copyright infringement and theft are not the same thing. Please READ the SCOTUS decision I cited above.

     

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  42.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 27th, 2007 @ 10:09am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "as it boils down to the same thing: They're both illegal."

    I never said copyright infringement wasn't illegal or wrong. I pointed out (and the SCOTUS agrees with me) that copyright infringement and theft are two different things.

    Please READ the SCOTUS decision I cited above.

     

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  43.  
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    YouKnowNothing, Apr 27th, 2007 @ 10:18am

    Re: Infamous Joe

    What if I copy it, listen to it once, then delete it? Is that fundamentally any different than if I hear it on the radio while driving in a friend's car?

    What if I already own the CD or LP (let's say Black Sabbath's "Master of Reality") and I download the mp3 of "Into the Void"? I already bought the music once. Must I pay for it again? And again? And again?

     

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  44.  
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    The infamous Joe, Apr 27th, 2007 @ 10:26am

    Brad is rad.

    Ah, Brad. Brad, Brad, Brad. So quick to tell me I'm wrong without thinking it through. This is how it works in the real world:

    I hear of a band, we'll call them Brad's Band.

    I've never heard of Brad's Band, so I look for them using my favorite p2p program-- I download Brad's Band's first CD, as to see if they are worth the $20 I'm probably going to be forced to fork over for their music.

    (Pay attention, here's the tricky part)

    *if* I like Brad's Band, I either buy their CD, or, go see them when they come around and pick it up at the show.

    If I don't like them, I may not delete the CD (depending on hard disk space) but rest assured now that I know Brad's Band isn't my cup of tea, I never buy or download their 'music' ever again.

    Did you see that? You propose that I buy a CD I haven't heard, and if I find out I don't like them, I'm out $20 and you don't get my money ever again.

    I propose that you don't get *any* of my money until I find out if I like your music.

    So, I'm saying I should only pay for what I like, and you insist we should pay for the chance to see if we like it.

    Who was being a child again, Brad?

     

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  45.  
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    Brad, Apr 27th, 2007 @ 12:41pm

    Re: Re: I love the term

    Shills....I love you children and your paranoid fantasies.

    It's not "stealing" it's just copyright infringment. Idiots.

     

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  46.  
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    Brad, Apr 27th, 2007 @ 12:46pm

    Re: Ok, I'll bite ...

    I agree with you on the notion that content providers lose consistency (and logic) when they treat one method of distribution differently than any other.

    There are a few reasons I think they're okay with you recording off the radio:

    1. qualilty sucks -- it's not of high enough quality to make them feel threatened by loss of sales.

    2. inconvenient -- making tapes is no where near as scalable as posting on a P2P server where thousands of copies can be made at virtually no cost (and you don't have to buy cassette tapes).

    So, they've determined that the risk to their business from piracy from radio is small enough not to worry about.

     

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  47.  
    identicon
    Brad, Apr 27th, 2007 @ 12:54pm

    Infamous Joe

    Joe,

    Still a child -- lecturing someone you don't know on the "real world"....

    Here are some rebuttals to your world:

    A) You could figure out if you like my band without taking the entire album. See me in concert, hear me on the radio, listen to samples on iTunes, Amazon or any other service. You don't have to buy the entire album to see if you like my music.

    B) If you've never heard of my music, why are you downloading anything?

    B) You, being the honest person you are, stated that if you liked the album you just ripped off a P2P site you'd go buy it. What % of users do that? What % just keep the files and listen?

    C) How I distribute my music and what I charge for it ISN'T YOUR CALL.

     

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  48.  
    identicon
    Brad, Apr 27th, 2007 @ 12:56pm

    Re: Re: YouKnowNothing's is a child...

    Stealing: taking something that doesn't belong to you. Don't need the SCOTUS for help there...

     

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  49.  
    identicon
    Brad, Apr 27th, 2007 @ 12:58pm

    Re: Re: Infamous Joe

    No, I think if you own the CD you should be able to make or take as many copies of the music as you wish. You PAID the author of the content their due and owe them nothing else for listening to that song.

    I guess I'm making the distinction at the line where the author of the content ceases to receive compensation for their work.

    If the author gets paid, it should be legal. If the author doesn't get paid, it should be illegal. No matter the distribution method.

     

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  50.  
    identicon
    Brad, Apr 27th, 2007 @ 1:08pm

    Re: Ok, I'll bite ...

    The book comments are on the money ... (I worked in publishing). Publisher's make all their money off the first sale of any book. Same with authors.

    The reasons publisher's don't care as much about the used book market (and they DO care) is that it too doesn't scale as well. There's less risk there.

    The publishers would go insane if you scanned their books and posted the PDFs online -- the risk to sales of their content are higher. Even though in this case reading online is less than a great experience.

    As for the singing a song for 9 versus 10 people -- I was unaware you couldn't sing a song on your own. Or did you mean play the song? Agree that content owners have written unenforeable laws and ones that seem to make no sense...

    This argument started on the notion that downloading an album of songs in lieu of purchasing the CD wasn't somehow damaging the author of that content.

    I'm not defending the full scope of the recording industry's laws -- just reacting to the belief by many that "if it's downloadable it must be free" or that they have a right to anything they can download for free.

     

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  51.  
    identicon
    The infamous Joe, Apr 27th, 2007 @ 1:21pm

    Last call.

    This is the last post I will make on the subject. If you'd like to leave your email, or your band's email (assuming you have a band) I'll be happy to continue the discussion as long as you'd like.

    I can decide if I like your band from a few songs, but I can't decide if I like an album without listening to the entire album. I'm not buying your band, I'm buying a CD.

    Word of mouth is how I hear of most bands. Either the person I heard of the band can send me the songs or I can download them myself-- either way is wrong in your eyes.

    I have no idea what percentage of downloaders does what with music. I concern myself with only what I do. If you want to know what they do with music, ask them.

    How you distribute your music and what you charge is my call, sadly enough. You see, I, being a consumer, get to decide where my money goes. If enough consumers don't like how you do it, then either (a) You change to how we like it or (b) You run out of money and are forced to stop. The free market is a wonderful thing, yes?

    Stealing and copyright infringement are *legally* two different things. You can say they are not until you are blue in the face, but it doesn't change that fact. They *are* both illegal, yes. If I said Murder and Stealing were the same thing, that would not make it so, either. ("But, I'm stealing a life, your honor!")

    What if all my CD's were lost in a fire? Since all I did was buy the rights to listen to the music as the MAFIAA claims, do I then get free license to replace those CDs? My rights didn't burn up in the fire, just little plastic discs. Can I do it in the form of downloading, or should I head to my local record store with a list of CDs and demand they be replaced? I compensated the artist a few years back, afterall.

    I'm sure there's more I should point out. I'll await your response so eagerly it hurts, and don't forget that email address. ;)

     

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  52.  
    identicon
    Brad, Apr 27th, 2007 @ 1:47pm

    Re: Last call.

    Q. What if all my CD's were lost in a fire?
    A. Think that you should have access to all those songs somehow if technically possible. I think current laws allow you to make legit backup copies of all your music -- just don't allow you to give those copies to people who didn't pay for the CDs...

    AGREE -- I Agree that stealing and copyright infringement are different things, but think in this case the distinction is only relevant to lawyers.

    AGREE on the buying a CD, not a song, but the remedies I listed for sampling the music apply to the album as well.

    Someone mentioned books above. Do you think you should be able to get your money back on a book if, after you've read it you've decided you didn't like it, or you didn't like a few chapters? Flip side, I agree that record labels often ship an album of crap with one decent song on them...

    My distribution policies are most certainly not your call. You're free not to buy. I'm free to go out of business.

    You can email me at indyliberal at gee mail dot com.

     

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  53.  
    identicon
    Brad, Apr 27th, 2007 @ 1:51pm

    Last one: for YouKnowNothing

    "With your logic, every time I convinced one of my friends to by an iMac instead of a PC then I've harmed MicroSoft and owe them money. Everytime I go see the latest James Bond film but not the latest Jason Bourne film I've harmed the producers of 'The Bourne Supremacy' and owe them money. How much clearer can it be?"

    Your analogy is off. The operative word is BUY. You convice your friend to buy an iMac NOT SHARE A COPY OF AN iMAC that your friend didn't have to pay for. Go the James Bond film, you're BUYING a ticket. The only way you hurt them is to commit copyright infringment by viewing a copy of film without paying for it (there, I didn't say "steal").

     

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  54.  
    identicon
    |333173|3|_||3, Apr 27th, 2007 @ 10:53pm

    One way in which illegal copies of CDs is OK

    As i see it, if someone at my college has a CD, and I want to listen to it, I can be fairly sure that if I walk over to thier room at any resonalbe time, I would be able to borrow thier backup copy, or listen to it there if they are actually listening to the music, or find whoever has it and get it off him. In this case, how is it any different (morally, not legally) to copy the disk and take the new copy back to my room, the GCR, or whereever I happen to be, ratehr than and only listen to it when I would be able to borrow the original backup., since the only diffeernce is that i don't have to walk a few hundred yards tops to whoever owns the disc.

    If a song (or movie clip etc) is shared in iTunes, then it makes no difference wheter I listen to it off of their computer in iTunes, or I use MyTunes Redux to get a copy, and listen to it off my own HDD instead, except that after the first time I listen to it, I am not using up netowrk bandwidth.

    The same argument could be applied to public library CDs, although less strongly.

     

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  55.  
    identicon
    Brad, Apr 28th, 2007 @ 6:16am

    Re: One way in which illegal copies of CDs is OK

    You're borrowing a copy -- not the original disc -- so you both have access to the music at the same time. That's why it's wrong.

    Musicians, authors, software developers and others who sell intellectual propery don't care if you share a purchased copy of their work. But it's not sharing if the property is copied. At that point, by definition you're not "sharing" anything.

    Same with a library -- you're borrowing a purchased copy of the material. You're not legally supposed to copy the material. Same thing with a book or software.

    Another good example here is the software industry. If you find a way to hack the security on a piece of software (the DRM if you will) and copy the software for your use, then you're not "borrowing" the software. You've committed copyright infringment and you've basically stolen from the author of that product -- you're using his/her product without compensating them.

    Your example also falls apart on P2P networks where "borrowing" someone's music can be done by thousands of people. That goes way beyond the notion of borrowig someone's original CD.

     

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  56.  
    identicon
    Joe, Apr 28th, 2007 @ 7:20am

    Re: Re: Ok, I'll bite ...

    I think you missed my point.

    You stated consuming art without paying the artist to be both morally wrong and legally should be considered to be essentially "the same as stealing".

    I asked you why this is so in some cases and not others, or if you thought ALL cases should be banned.

    You replied with why publishers choose not to "go after" these activities, for which your answer was interesting, if incorrect.

    Like most people, you seem to think these activities are tolerated because "analog is lower quality" or something to that effect, which is incorrect. Book and music publishers don't "go after" these activities because THEY CAN'T -- those ways of "stealing" from artists are enshrined BY LAW as legal activities. I *GUARANTEE* you book publishers would support IN A MINUTE a law that banned used book stores, and even resale of books -- if they COULD make books that'd disintegrate after one reading, the WOULD (and is similar, in effect, to what many publishers are trying to accomplish with e-books.)

    My question remains: why do YOU believe some ways of "stealing" from the artist are OK, and others should be verboten?

    My POINT in all this is to try to help you to realize that what you are wishing could be reality (that artists maintain ultimate control of every use of their art) is both unconstitutional, contrary to history and case law, and basically unenforceable, unless you want to live under a Big Brother, IP-gestapo-like regime that monitors every use of a creative work.

    By your logic, ALL ways of consuming media, except for WATCHING THE ARTIST perform his song, should be illegal, because they were ALL once considered "stealing" from the artist. Traditionally, our stance on new media technologies (radio, VCRs, records, tapes, etc. etc.) is that they allow greater liberty, freedom, and more-fluid dissemination of information, which is vital thing for INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY.

    Like most other rights; yes, even PHYSICAL property rights; copyrights were considered to take a back seat to individual liberty and technological progress. We've have ALWAYS passed laws that said, "this new technology is important, great, and will greatly reduce the cost and effort required for people to see and hear new things, and thats MORE important in a free country than making sure the last generation of rich guys stay every bit as rich in the next generation". Movie industry: don't like people "stealing" shows off TV? Tough turkey, we want people to be able to use new technology more than we want to protect your self-perceived ULTIMATE rights to control your content.

    And EVERY TIME we've done this, because they were FORCED TO DO SO, the content industries have figured out that, even though people were getting content cheaper and easier than THEY would have ever allowed, the expansion of the market made possible by the new technology created so many NEW ways for them to make money, they ended up richer than ever.

    But this time, with the Internet, the opposite seems to be true -- lobbyists have finally succeeded in purchasing enough of the Government where we're now saying -- this new technology is hurting the poor IP busineses so much, lets ban, restrict, control, and regulate people's use of this new technology to protect them. Let's make it illegal to even TALK ABOUT ways to circumvent copy-protection technologies. (Free speech, anyone?)

    Is there any doubt the music companies, if they chose to, could bring back the old Napster, charge 5 bucks a month for it, and pocket 200-300 milllion in PURE PROFIT every month? Don't kid yourself, all this flailing and consternation about downloading is about PUBLISHER'S CONTROL of content, not about "artists getting paid for their work".

    If protectionist policies for one extraordinarily rich group of citizens is more important to you than individual liberty and progress, then I understand your stance. I assume that this is true, or you've simply been deluded into thinking IP rights (or ANY rights, for that matter) are absolute. Either way, when I read your arguments, I weep for the future.

    P.S. -- on the 9 vs. 10 people, I meant "singing". Under our system, one is considered a "public performance", and is therefore illegal, the other is not. Despite what you may've heard, what "cover bands" that play in bars do is quite illegal. This IS, in fact, a case where the music industry CHOOSES not to assert protectionist rights that it has. Why this is the case is one thing the music business does that I DON'T understand -- though ASCAP has tried to extort money from groups like the boy scouts and the similar group for little girls (brownies?) for singing copyrighted songs around their campfires ...

     

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  57.  
    identicon
    Brad, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 2:24pm

    Re: Re: Re: Ok, I'll bite ...

    The simple point is that copying intellectual property for the purposes of alternate, unpaid distribution (as opposed to personal use) is illegal. And wrong.

    IP owners have resisted most forms of new technology until a way to compensate them was developed. Live performances? Get a venue and charge to come in. Recording devices? Charge for the recordings. The flood gates will open on the Internet too -- as soon as people's IP is able to be protected and profits can be driven.

    My "interesting if incorrect" answer comes from 16 years in publishing as Associate Publisher for a major publisher. Sure we don't chase people making photocopies for themselves. We sure as hell do chase people making photocopies for commercial use. Go to your local college campus and ask an instructor if they pay for the photocopied handouts they distribute. They do.

    You use analogies from a technology period (VCRs) that lets individual make a single copy and keep it for their own use. Far cry from a digital copy posted to a server for 1,000's to take.

    Your arguments about the reality of current business models is largely on the money -- consumers are demanding a different way to access content. But no sane consumer is arguing for everything to be FREE. Your tired saws about "if I really like it I'll buy it" are B.S. for 98% of the kids copying music.

    You don't like my business model? Don't buy. If I'm charing too much for something, that doesn't give you the right to take it. Calling it copyright infringement instead of theft doesn't change that.

    "If protectionist policies for one extraordinarily rich group of citizens is more important to you than individual liberty and progress, then I understand your stance. I assume that this is true, or you've simply been deluded into thinking IP rights (or ANY rights, for that matter) are absolute. Either way, when I read your arguments, I weep for the future."

    "extraordinarily rich"? Come on, most every author I've ever worked with wasn't rich. Most busted their asses for the money they earned.

    And your paranoid rantings about "standing in the way of technology" and "individual liberty"? Shit, what's next "It's patriotic to copy music!".

    No one's standing in the way -- the technology is being developed, and no one develops it faster than someone with a profit motive. See VCR / High Def CD / Web video and the porn industry's influence.

    All this said, I see your side of this and bet we agree on 95% of the issue. I'm invested in seeing IP protected (I'm in the software industry now), but agree some of the RIAA stuff is over the top. Guys like you scare them to death.

    Come up with a list of requirements for your ideal business model -- that'd be a great place to start the dialog. What do consumers want? vs. What can be done for profit? seems the balance.

     

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  58.  
    identicon
    Joe, Apr 30th, 2007 @ 8:16am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Ok, I'll bite ...

    The simple point is that copying intellectual property for the purposes of alternate, unpaid distribution (as opposed to personal use) is illegal. And wrong.


    No, as I've just pointed out, its not ALWAYS illegal. Certain ways of copying and distribution have ALWAYS been allowed, ESPECIALLY in the case of new technologies that make that distribution cheaper and easier.

    My "interesting if incorrect" answer comes from 16 years in publishing as Associate Publisher for a major publisher. Sure we don't chase people making photocopies for themselves.


    Unless you were the lead lawyer making the decisions who to sue, "16 years in publishing" makes not one whit of difference. Publishers also "choose" not to go after used bookstores, much as they and authors continually howl about how unfair they are and how buying used books is "stealing" from them. Why do they not go after them? As I've already pointed out, its because THEY CAN'T. This method of "unpaid distribution" is LEGAL. My original point stands: So-called "IP" rights are like other rights -- they are NOT absolute, but fluid and changable with the changing times and technology, and ultimately are only supposed to even EXIST only to "Promote the Progress" not to give authors and publishers CONTROL of what they've created.

    You use analogies from a technology period (VCRs) that lets individual make a single copy and keep it for their own use. Far cry from a digital copy posted to a server for 1,000's to take.


    Not if you go back and look at the arguments made by the movie industry when the VCR was introduced, they're not. Both were/are going to allow people to steal, for free, their property. Both were/are going to put them completely out of business. Same for all the other technologies I've mentioned.

    "extraordinarily rich"? Come on, most every author I've ever worked with wasn't rich. Most busted their asses for the money they earned.


    I was talking about your erstwhile compatriots -- PUBLISHERS. One of the most amazing things to me is in the current debate is that ARTISTS are not LEADING the charge to disintermediate a system that routinely FUCKS THEM to the benefit of rich guys who can afford to buy their copyrights for (pardon the pun) "a song".

    And your paranoid rantings about "standing in the way of technology" and "individual liberty"? Shit, what's next "It's patriotic to copy music!".


    Paranoid? In what way? Is it your contention that publishers DON'T want to "stand in the way" of technological progress that might reduce the price they can charge for their goods? Upon WHAT could you possibly be basing this assumption?

    Ridiculous as you find it, I DO think its patriotic to copy music -- without the Napster theives, there would be no iTunes -- technological progress vis-a-vis new media distribution techniques would effectively come to a halt, I believe, if civil disobedience didn't FORCE publishers to rethink their ridiculous stances. If "Progress" is important enough to enshrine in the Constitution, then its important enough to civilly disobey unjust laws for, IMO. It may surprise you to learn that one of the fundamental tenets over which The Forefathers chose to revolt was the British Throne's insistence on "lording the rights of dead authors over the rights of the living" -- a fairly accurate description of today's copyright system, you'll note.

    All this said, I see your side of this and bet we agree on 95% of the issue. I'm invested in seeing IP protected (I'm in the software industry now), but agree some of the RIAA stuff is over the top. Guys like you scare them to death. Come up with a list of requirements for your ideal business model ...


    Agreed. I too, am in the software business (developer), and am not in favor of abolishment of the system of patents and copyrights -- though significant reforms are needed, IMO, in the Internet age, particularly w/r/t length of the time the monopolies are granted, and also w/r/t what can be protected (MS got granted a PATENT on the != operator!). And, of course, as a software developer, I wish for a system under which creators can be paid for their creative works.

    The key to business models is the same as it is with every technological revolution. The technology inevitably makes creation and distribution cheaper and more fluid. Likewise the new business of selling the technology should make individual unit prices cheaper and the restrictions on what I can do with my media should become lessened, not increased. The key to EVERY ONE of these "technological media revolutions" is that they have EXPANDED THE MARKET while LOWERING THE UNIT PRICE. This is what made them compelling and allowed both artists and publishers to get rich off every new technology that has been introduced. This essential, universal fact is what Publishers are not getting (or are refusing to act like they get). This is not new, however, they've acted similarly with EVERY new technology. The only difference is, this time, our bought-and-paid-for Congress is letting the Publishers write the new technology laws this time around.

    There are a thousand business models. I mentioned one in my last post ($5 a month "Old" Napster). EFF has a compelling suggestion regarding a system similar to radio called "voluntary collective licensing". I think a system in which you can choose to stream (but not save) any song you want on any device you want for a similar price ($5 a month) would be compelling to me (ie, Why would I take the time to download, store, and organize my music collection if I could listen to whatever I want, whenever I want). Labels could have an ad-supported online system where everything is free, but only offer a few tracks off each album, and then include in the system a way to buy the full audio/data CD with all the tracks, lyrics, "making of the album" videos, and any other bonus materials, vis-a-vis the DVD model that has been so successful for the movie business. I almost NEVER pirate DVDs, because they're reasonably priced, and they offer a good value for the money. Technology makes all these things viable, profitable business models, IMO.

    A C64 game-trading friend of mine told me prophetic words in 1986, when the first signs of protectionist actions were happening in that market (a la the "Don't Copy That Floppy" campaign, and others). He told me: "The first and only and effective piracy prevention measure is simple: LOW PRICE". The same holds true to today -- in order to "win" this generation's revolution, publishers have to offer me (and others) a better deal than the pirates are offering. As I explained above, I think they are more than capable of going to market with many different business models that will do exactly that. The problem is THEY DON'T WANT TO. They desire CONTROL more than MONEY. The reason I don't expect this to change, is that IT NEVER HAS. With every generation, the pirates and the government have always DRAGGED Publishers, kicking and screaming the whole way, to the new technology money tree.

    As I said, the difference this time is the Government's been bought by the Publishers and the pirates are having to do it all on their own -- this may change as today's kids (ie, "pirates") grow up and become legislators. Then again, it may not, as this wasn't required in previous generations, and the legislators of tomorrow might be purchased just as easily as today's. There's really no way to know, as we've never allowed the kind of wholesale purchasing of favorable Governmental policy that we are allowing today.

    To sum up, the problem is not "business models". It is the lack of will on Publisher's part to take a risk and step away from the dwindling money tree to which they're clutching as if it held their last breath within it, and invest fully in the nurturing of the growing-like-gangbusters new money tree that is right in front of them, staring them in the face with the inevitabilty of the future.

     

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  59.  
    identicon
    Brad, May 1st, 2007 @ 10:29am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ok, I'll bite ...

    You're last paragraph hit it on the head. And I'd guess that you're hating the recent ruling concerning internet radio. I'm a huge Pandora fan, and fear that the uninformed ruling will kill that service.

    I understand the label's profit fear though. If I can listed to a personalized music stream, then my need to buy albums decreases (a point you made).

    The real dig for the companies though is that internet streaming makes a huge selection of music available to the consumer -- far more than they can profitably manufacture and physically distribute via their normal channels.

    For example, I've found half a dozen bands on Pandora that I like -- and ZERO of those bands were available at local CD distributors (I had to buy them all from Amazon). The more personalized the music streams, the fewer mega-hits they'll have. Time was EVERYONE bought an Elivs record. Now we're picking and choosing single songs from a huge variety of artists. Good for me, good for those artists -- really bad for the P&L of the distributor.

    b

     

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  60.  
    identicon
    Joe, May 1st, 2007 @ 6:18pm

    "... the recent ruling concerning internet radio ..."

    Yeah, just when I meet a reasonable person "on the other side" (I think you know who I mean), who brings me back from my utopian-pirate-wonderland-dreamworld to reality and at least makes me think *for a second* about their side of the argument, they do something like that ruling to make me absolutely, sight-inhibitingly furious again.

    I mean, intentionally setting rates with the express purpose, which they've stated, btw, of eliminating any possible competition I can understand -- it is, in fact pretty typical monopolistic behavior.

    But now the news that they plan to not only charge the exorbitant royalty rates for the music which they control the copyright for, but they've somehow colluded with the Government to make it so they can "legally" charge royalties from webcasters for indie bands that *WANT* their music distributed freely on web radio. ARRRGHH!

    Even Microsoft hasn't tried to extract new-install Vista license prices from people for downloading Linux. (Yet ... ;^)

    I had *almost* convinced myself I would start purchasing some "mainstream" music again when EMI's tracks are offered DRM-free on iTMS, despite the over-charging involved (why do I have to pay higher-than-CD prices just to get CD quality? Its like they're TRYING to make it unsuccessful, so they can whine to Congress for more protection. I mean, at that rate, why don't I just buy the CD and rip it into my iTMS library?), and they pull this repugnant stunt.

    (I do regularly buy local and indie CDs, but haven't purchased mainstream RIAA downloadable tracks or CDs since the industry propped that pinhead Lars Ulrich up in front of Congress.)

    This has not QUITE convinced me that there is NO recourse, and I absolutely MUST abstain from purchasing music until I die or the current industry titans are deposed. There MAY still be something they could do to reconcile with me, but I don't know what it would be at this point.

     

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  61.  
    identicon
    fred, Mar 13th, 2008 @ 6:30am

    it is straange, but i have seen another info- at http://loadingvault.com
    theyhave an account!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  62.  
    identicon
    brain, Nov 20th, 2008 @ 6:32am

    Hi I want to recommend you very useful download files search http://suche-project.eu You can find there a lot of new movies, games and music. Enjoy it!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  63.  
    identicon
    Valus, Nov 20th, 2008 @ 6:38am

    Hi I want to recommend you very useful rapidshare search http://4rapidsearch.com You can find there a lot of new movies, games and music. Enjoy it!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  64.  
    icon
    lrobbo (profile), May 25th, 2012 @ 1:58pm

    Re:

    Er, wut?!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  65.  
    icon
    fodder99 (profile), Jul 11th, 2012 @ 4:41am

    Comes back to Money again as per usual!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  66.  
    icon
    Ophelia Millais (profile), Aug 7th, 2012 @ 1:21pm

    Re: HTTPTUNNEL

    Ohio U. (Athens) ≠ Ohio State U. (Columbus)

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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