Well, Look At That: Offshoring Didn't Destroy The Tech Industry

from the shocking dept

Back during the recession years, whenever we'd write about how offshoring technology jobs wasn't the big problem people made it out to be, we'd get tons of angry comments. However, the points many of us were making were pretty straightforward. First, offshoring wasn't as cheap as people were making it out to be. The monetary costs would continue to increase as demand increased (which is exactly what happened), but more importantly, the non-monetary costs were a lot higher than people expected. Managing a team halfway around the world isn't easy, and there are lots of problems with it for certain types of projects. In fact, that's exactly what many companies discovered. At the same time, there are clearly cases where offshoring makes sense. It's classic comparative advantage economics at work, where benefits tend to accrue to both sides of the equation. People forget this and think that it's a zero sum game and that a job that goes to India is somehow "lost" forever. However, the value from well done offshoring actually opens up new opportunities and so it should come as no surprise that unemployment for techies is the lowest its been in years. This fits with other recent stories about tech wages at new highs and H1-B visas being exhausted in a single day. The simple fact is that the economy is not a zero sum game. Allowing the economy to grow by letting jobs go where they're most efficient will increase the overall pie and open up plenty of new job opportunities in other places -- which appears to be exactly what's happened. As if to underscore this, now that tech jobs are scarce in the US, those who were complaining about "lost" jobs a few years ago must think that there's less demand in India for skilled tech workers -- but the opposite is true. Tech companies there are also having trouble hiring. In other words, the sector just keeps growing, and having jobs move around doesn't mean that any jobs are permanently "lost." At some point, we'll go through this cycle again, but hopefully next time around people will recognize it for what it is, rather than passing around the blame and pushing Congress to pass protectionist laws that actually shrink the economic opportunity.


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    James, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 8:25am

    I work in this field...

    ...and I never once believed I wouldn't be able to find a job due to off-shoaring; and, this was in 2002 when it wasn't quite as easy to be a web developer.

    Most people don't understand what developers do, so they try to think of them as a commodity instead of a resource.

     

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    Bobby Romanski, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 8:30am

    Offshoring for the World Economy

    With the North American Union coming into play, equalizing the average american's prosperity with the rest of the world is key. Check out the new the videos at http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2007/110107pretext.htm

     

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    Evil_Bastard, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 8:46am

    It destroyed customer service.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 8:53am

    jobs are still scarce

    this article isn't very coherent

     

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    angry dude, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 8:57am

    Mike is clueless as usual

    Mike,

    You are either completely clueless or you are a paid stooge for those large tech companies...
    Just give it up, dude...
    it's sickening already

     

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      Casper, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 9:29am

      Re: Mike is clueless as usual

      "You are either completely clueless or you are a paid stooge for those large tech companies...
      Just give it up, dude...
      it's sickening already"

      Idiotic as usual angry dude. You know, maybe if you actually put forth information to support your arguments you wouldn't look so pathetic... that is assuming you have a point other then the fact that you disagree with Mike.

      I happen to work in the tech industry as a software developer and have for many years. I have never had a hard time finding work. Now, I don't think off shore tech support is a good idea, in fact I know of several large companies that are pulling their tech support back to the US slowly, but at the same time I don't see it hurting the work force. Many of the jobs that are going over seas are jobs that are really hard to keep filled over here.

      I know the ISP's near where I live have a very hard time getting good tech support personnel. Most of the problem is that the positions are viewed as an entry level position or part time position, so the employees seeking the positions are usually college students or people looking to pick up a few extra hours. These cause all kinds of problems from delinquency to employees walking off the job for a better paying position. Knowing this, I can see why companies would want to place their tech support somewhere that the employees actually want to work for them and continue to do so for a relatively stable amount of time. Of course I disagree with the idea that this is a good business decision due to the fact that I have heard many complaints about not being able to understand the person on the phone and the fact that they really can't do anything to help.

       

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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 9:01am

    #4 anon coward again:

    I've been looking for a front-end production job for about 5 months now. The only thing out there is two-week freelance gigs. I've been in web production for 7 years. Why can't I find a job with all of these great things going on?

     

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    B, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 9:14am

    Well, Look At That: Once again the whole story is

    "...unemployment for techies is the lowest its been in years. This fits with other recent stories about tech wages at new highs and H1-B visas being exhausted in a single day."

    Could it be that many "techies" switched careers back in the recession years because they could no longer make it? Not because of lack of talent mind you, because they couldn't find a job. Also there are less graduates coming out with CS degrees these days because 4 years ago when they started college they were told they would not be able to find a job. So again, we will be hiring more H1-Bs and outsourcing to fill the demand and the cycle will continue. Blah... Blah... Blah.

     

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      dorpass, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 10:30am

      Re: Well, Look At That: Once again the whole story

      B, thanks for replacing dorpus.

      Look at CS graduation rates over the past years before talking out of your ass.

       

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        B, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 11:37am

        Re: Re: Well, Look At That: Once again the whole s

        Well I'm just going by what the news media is reporting. Are they lying? Where do you get your information?

         

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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 9:22am

    ^^^ maybe that is why you people cannot find jobs - you complain too much, or you guys are replying-to internet blogs instead of actually looking for work/or are work and not doing the jobs you are paid to be doing.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 9:47am

    well #8, you seem to find plenty of time to read and reply while at your job. OR you are unemployed too.

    Once I apply to all of the jobs that I'm qualified for and work on advancing my skillset, there is a little time in the cracks to read about the industry and to eat and sleep.

     

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    chris (profile), Apr 26th, 2007 @ 9:53am

    speaking of economics

    as the demand for offshore work goes up, so too does it's price. the more money people have, the more money they spend, the more they want to make.

    also, as more work (and money) goes out of the US, the value of the dollar will continue to go down.

    it's the old one-two punch... the more you offshore, the more the offshore expects to earn, and sooner or later the value of the dollar drops and it takes more greenbacks to pay wokers the amount you agreed to pay.

    so offshore away... once the dollar loses enough value everyone will be outsourcing to the US for cheap labor and the whole cycle will repeat.

     

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    PH.D, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 9:59am

    You don't do research do you?

    You have delivered some interesting platitudes but you are mistaken in the make up of the industry and global economics
    1.) Zero sum game (or gain) - the benefit in this case would be to the world economy not the tech industry, the united states, or the individual. It is zero-sum if you lose, someone else benefits, and you get nothing. Consider how much better off (or not) those people that manufactured television sets here in the US are now. I am sure these 50 year old men were excited at the opportunity to learn a new trade and must have been paid well. There is only one manufacturer of TVs in the US left, they don't employ everyone that lost their job.
    2.) Shortages in the Industry - There are only perceived shortages in the industry. Anyone in the industry knows that the shortages are artificial based on description. If I need someone with AJAX experience but I don't need 1 of the hundreds of available C++ programmers I say there is a shortage of programmers. Most IT jobs are extremely specific in description and there shortages are fake. It turns out that (look it up) many people in the early 2000's that were formally in IT gave up looking for programming jobs and took up functional positions. Here is a test. Create a fake resume with 25 years of COBOL experience and try to find a job outside of COBOL, even include training in the skill set you would like to pursue. You won't get hired. Programmers experience is often only respected in specific skills. It is better to just lie, the outsourcers do it so to stay competitive you should do what the industry wants apparently.
    3.) letting jobs go where they are most efficient - There is a difference between efficiency and cheap. It is less efficient to manage a team across the world but it is cheap. Quality goes down when code is outsourced as well. That is not a sign of efficiency. Projects take longer, not efficient.

    Don't site other non referenced articles as research. Look for real numbers, real research. That is, unless you have an agenda. Or are a liar.

     

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      Chris Maresca, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 10:14am

      Re: You don't do research do you?

      It's all about continuous learning. If you are a software developer, you have to constantly update your skills.

      If you don't, you will not be in demand. People who think that you can go 5 or 10 years doing the exact same thing with the exact same tools are the ones that get let go first and have the hardest time finding new work.

      Tony Perkins has a great graph about the cost of building a software company (you can find it in this presentation) and much of that applies to software tools as well. It's very possible for software developers to acquire new skills on their own, much more so than 10 years ago.

      So the key to staying relevant and being in demand (and there is a lot of demand, particularly in some markets), is not so much related to whether or not your skills are being outsource, but if you keep up with the industry in general. Of course, geographic location helps as well.

      BTW, if you are going to call someone a liar for not having any numbers in their bit, it would be good to reference numbers yourself.... I don't see any "real research" in your post.

      Chris.

       

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        Anonymous Coward, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 10:25am

        Re: Re: You don't do research do you?

        His name was PH.D, I guess he assumed that was research enough. lol

         

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        angry dude, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 10:53am

        Re: Re: You don't do research do you?

        Blah...blah.. blah...

        Same old shit, always defending Mike.

        Took a second to look up a resume of Chris Maresca:

        Take a look: http://www.chrismaresca.com/resume2.html

        Just what I was thinking, a bunch of BS.

        Education: University of Amsterdam
        Amsterdam, Netherlands
        Graduate Studies (masters) 1991 - 92
        International Environmental Policy
        University of Maine
        Orono, Maine USA
        Bachelor of Arts, 1991
        International Relations/History

        All Public Relations BS

        No wonder you always support Mike - he is also full of it.

        Have you ever written a line of code in Java or C++, Chris ? I guess not...

        Maybe you should try to find a full-time software developmnt position in the US or just shut up

         

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          John Roberts, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 11:35am

          Re: Re: Re: You don't do research do you?

          Angry dude's ad hominem attack on Chris notably excludes his own resume. I, myself, have written hundreds of thousands of lines of code in Java and C++ as well as many other languages. I have found no difficulty in finding full-time software development positions here in the US and neither have any of my friends and colleagues.

          To be fair, some have had to expand their skill set and we have found through experience that this is best done while on the current job. Those that have not had the foresight to learn additional programming languages when presented the opportunity and occasionally simply making the opportunity at work do have a little more difficulty in finding positions outside of their listable experience.

          There is a bit of Catch-22 in that employers do want experience in the particular area and a prospective developer cannot get a job in order to gain that experience. We have found, however, that a little bit of perseverance always finds an employer desperate enough to take an experienced developer with no prior job experience in an area as long as the developer has studied the language/reports system/db on their own.

          I am curious as to what part of the U.S. angry dude is located in where he has had no luck. I have a pretty extensive network of friends and colleagues in the industry and may be able to point you in the right direction.

           

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          Chris Maresca, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 11:53am

          Re: Re: Re: You don't do research do you?

          Hhmm, I used to be a developer. It's on my resume - Java, C, ASM, microcontrollers, you name it, I've probably coded it, everything from automotive HVAC controls to supply chain management systems to high profile e-commerce like Starbucks and HP. Even won awards for the last two. Obviously you can't read.
          Why don't you post your resume so we can compare YOUR career? I'm not hiding behind some anonymous name, unlike you.

          And, BTW, one of the things I am most proud of is that I DON'T have a degree in CS, thus proving my point about continuous learning (aka, eating my own dogfood).

          Chris.

           

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            angry dude, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 12:09pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: You don't do research do you?

            Chris,

            your resume is a bunch of BS
            - Blah-blah-blah and nothing specific

            Any IT recruter will tell you so
            Just try to get a decent full-time IT job with your resume, but no personal connections...

             

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              TheDock22, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 12:32pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You don't do research do you?

              Angry Dude, you are so clueless.

              IT recruiters are in the market to place individuals, but also make money for select markets. If a university pays them enough, of course they are going to tell you to waste thousands of dollars on a CS degree.

              You honestly think a company would deny Chris a job, even though he has programmings skills, knowledge in many areas, and has won awards simply because he does not has a CS degree?

              You obviously have no idea how the world work and I pity you for it.

               

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      Mike (profile), Apr 26th, 2007 @ 10:18am

      Re: You don't do research do you?

      1.) Zero sum game (or gain) - the benefit in this case would be to the world economy not the tech industry, the united states, or the individual.

      It's true that some of the gain can (and will) occur outside the industry, but plenty tends to accrue inside the industry -- and in fact that seems to be what's happening now.

      2.) Shortages in the Industry - There are only perceived shortages in the industry. Anyone in the industry knows that the shortages are artificial based on description.

      First you accuse me of not actually reading what's going on, but they you focus on job shortages -- when that's not what the article is about. It's about *unemployment rate* being the lowest it's been. So, that's quite different and suggests that even if there the scarcity is based on job description there are very few out of work engineers.

      Create a fake resume with 25 years of COBOL experience and try to find a job outside of COBOL, even include training in the skill set you would like to pursue. You won't get hired. Programmers experience is often only respected in specific skills.

      So what? If you tell me that you're skill set is in building horse-drawn carriages and then whine that no automobile company will hire you, why is that my problem? Why didn't you keep up on the skill set you needed to get a job? Why should we be forced to hire someone who doesn't have the skillsets the industry needs? Everyone in the tech industry should know that it's a rapidly changing industry -- and if you fail to update your skillset that's not the industry's problem, it's yours.

      3.) letting jobs go where they are most efficient - There is a difference between efficiency and cheap. It is less efficient to manage a team across the world but it is cheap. Quality goes down when code is outsourced as well. That is not a sign of efficiency. Projects take longer, not efficient.

      Did you even read my post? I said exactly that. That's why many companies have scaled back poorly thought out offshoring projects. However, there are cases where it makes sense to do that where the efficiency does work out.

      That is, unless you have an agenda. Or are a liar.

      Thanks for the constructive criticism -- though it's amusing you say that when you clearly did not read the post or the linked articles.

       

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    Cannen, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 10:06am

    Looking for a good job

    Not too long ago I was looking for an IT job in my home state. I looked in the paper, the internet, and asked all my friends if their jobs were looking for an IT person. Keep in mind that I have a bachelor of science degree from a good school in computer information systems. The only jobs available were for those with 2-4 or 3-5 years of experience. They were all looking for senior level or intermediate level programmers. Where are all the entry level jobs in my field? I've known a lot of people in my field looking for work for a long time and can't find anything.

    I am not really interested in waiting for NAFTA to work. I don't have time to wait for workers in Mexico or India to come up to the standard of living or pay scale that I need to survive in the USA.

    The first job I had out of college was working for an IT consulting firm that could only afford to pay me $9/hr and ended up laying me off after 6mo from lack of enough work.

    How is it that you get to 2-4 or 3-5 yrs of experience when you can't get the entry level jobs?

     

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      Chris Maresca, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 12:18pm

      Re: Looking for a good job

      Geo counts for a lot. Take a look at the link to the Dice market report upthread. I realize that moving is not an easy thing to do, but it can really make a huge difference.

      Also, in my own niche (open source), there is a lot of demand, even for entry level people. Even at the level of people who have participated in open source communities and are technically savvy (but are not necessarily experts in a particular piece of open source), there is a lot of demand as these are skills that are required to do things like community outreach and management.

      Although it might be a bit unpleasant to think of yourself as a 'service', I think it's important to take this frame of mind. You are single individual 'company' offering a service. And, much like an actual company, doing your market research to understand what skills are in demand in which markets, and tailoring your 'services' to that demand, is what's going to lead to good job opportunities. My point (and I don't mean to sound harsh or anything) is that you can't sell your 'services' to a market that does not want or need them, so you either have to find a new market (eg. move) or offer new services (learn a new skill, switch careers).

      Another important thing is to network. I know it sounds trite and a waste of time, but, over time (meaning a couple of years), it can really pay dividends. A lot of jobs are never advertised, so the only way you'll ever hear about them is through your network.

      Chris.

       

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        Anonymous Coward, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 2:36pm

        Re: Re: Looking for a good job

        Sorry no more of that GEO bull***t. We are tech workers...we do not need to be in a building to do our jobs. If someone 10,000 miles away can f**ing work for a US company, I can work from home.

         

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      Subhajit DasGupta, Apr 29th, 2007 @ 6:04am

      Re: Looking for a good job

      Cannen,

      I feel your frustration and pain. About twelve years ago, I found myself in more or less the same situation in my job in India. While I *did* have a job and was employed, the pay was just enough for me to squeak by every month. A time came when I decided that I had to move somewhere where I would find employment that was not only in line with my background, skill sets and experience, but one that would be well paying to boot. To make a long story short, I moved to the United States in May, 1994, and have been happily employed here since.

      The point of the rather long story above is: if your situation and current commitments permit, have you considered moving (at least temporarily) to places where the entry level jobs *are*? I am thinking of places like Ireland and India.

      I understand that our individual situations are unique as we are ourselves, and that something that worked fro me might not necessarily work (or work as well) for someone else.

      Just suggesting, that is all.

      Wish you all the best.

       

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    John W, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 10:19am

    Re: Looking for a good job

    I am in the same situation. Making about $10 and looking to move on. Everyone wants experienced candidates, but you can't get experience because all the entry level jobs are overseas.

    They say outsourcing increase jobs here (in the U.S.) for higher skilled works, but if you can't get the low skilled jobs, you can't work your way to the top.

     

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      John Roberts, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 11:44am

      Re: Re: Looking for a good job

      Internships in college count as experience. Often, the interns are offered full-time jobs upon graduation. Even if the intern decides not to accept the offered position, he has gained resume-listable experience.

       

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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 10:31am

    "How is it that you get to 2-4 or 3-5 yrs of experience when you can't get the entry level jobs?"

    That is exactly the question I've been asking ever since I got my college degree. Almost nobody gives a guy a fighting chance anymore. This is why more and more college students are being forced to take unpaid internships, because fewer and fewer people are willing to pay for no experience. The first job I got out of college didn't work out, and I spent six months without a job, just barely surviving on freelance computer work (spyware cleanup, building PCs, etc.) and some really tiny unemployment payments. I have now been in my current job for two years and am doing fairly well, although I have still not been able to restablish any level of financial savings that got drained during my unemployment. It is getting harder and harder to find good jobs without requiring high level degrees and many years of experience.

    I say that anyone who says that offshore outsourcing hasn't stolen lots and lots of US tech jobs is sorely misinformed and just plain ignorant. Or maybe they just don't want to hear the truth and choose to ignore it. To the software developer above: so you've had good luck finding jobs, great for you. I'm willing to be software development work isn't quite so hard to come by. LAN administrator and PC support tech positions are, which is my niche. People applying for those jobs tend to be a dime a dozen, and the competition is always fierce, especially if, once again, you are trying to get started with your career and lack the experience.

    Has offshoring ruined the tech industry? Of course not. This world lives and breathes technology, so the industry will always exist, somewhere. However, that "somewhere" is quickly moving from the US to India, China, Hong Kong, Korea, Malaysia, Taiwan, Japan, and just about any other country you ever see a "Made in xxx" label on. I dare anybody to find even one PC-related component that has a "Made in USA" label on it. Trust me, you will be looking forever, because it does not exist. Granted, that's a bit off subject, but it still goes with the theme in that everything that's worth buying is slowly and methodically being removed from the US workforce, and that includes services as well as goods.

    All I can hope for at this point is to stay with the company I'm employed by now long enough to get a number of years of experience so that I have a fighting chance to maybe find a better paying job someday. Whether you want to believe it or not, it's a well known fact that offshoring has had a detrimental effect on our society as a whole, and I don't think things are going to get better anytime soon. I for one am sick and tired of trying to talk to guys in India, who I can barely understand, for tech support and other things.

     

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      Anonymous Coward, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 10:55am

      Re:

      LAN administrator and PC support tech positions are, which is my niche.

      What did you do while you were going to school? Nothing? When I was in college, I got a job for campus IT and worked there for 2 years. Before then, I had a job as a Computer Tech at an electronics store for another year. AND I also had experience as a freelance computer person. I did not even finish college, but still was able to get a salary paid position with the amount of experience I had. I do the same thing you do, Network and Systems Administration.

      Why are people complaining about not having experience when straight out of college? You obviously are not looking hard enough. Everyone I knew in college had a job either programming or in IT, while attending school full-time. Most universities need IT staff and developers, they pay cheap, but it is money after all. Plus, it is good experience.

      You should have gotten a job in the field while still in college to gain experience. That is why people like me have an advantage over people like you.

       

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        Cannen, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 11:27am

        Re: Re:

        I went to school in a mid-sized city where there was 1 major university and about 8 other colleges. I worked full time and went to school full time. I didn't have a dorm because the school I had didn't have them. You had to work hard just to make it in both and school I went to wasn't inexpensive. I also worked a second job as an systems administrator for a medium sized real estate company which means that I supported the $250,000 phone system administered through unix, about 60 clients in a Windows network and the alarm system that was run off of another system.

        Walk a mile in my shoes before you start spouting off about what people did when they went to school and how much of a slacker they are now because they can't find a job. You seem to be one of those people who thinks that if someone doesn't have a job, they aren't looking. Get a life. Not everyone lives where you live, has the same opportunities or even the same job market. Sure, I could move 2000 miles away from the family, support network and everything else that means anything for a job somewhere else, but I would rather live in the basement and work at mcdonalds than give up the things that are important to me in life... think about it.

         

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          TheDock22, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 12:28pm

          Re: Re: Re:

          Sure, I could move 2000 miles away from the family, support network and everything else that means anything for a job somewhere else, but I would rather live in the basement and work at mcdonalds than give up the things that are important to me in life... think about it.

          Good point, but then you can not complain that outsourcing is taking away tech jobs when you are unwilling to move to the places that do have tech jobs available. It has nothing to do with outsourcing and everything to do with your own personal preferences.

           

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            Cannen, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 1:12pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            Good point, but then you can not complain that outsourcing is taking away tech jobs when you are unwilling to move to the places that do have tech jobs available. It has nothing to do with outsourcing and everything to do with your own personal preferences.


            This is all part of my point. I'm not unwilling to move, but I don't want to have to move out of the state. I would like to be reasonably close (less than 200mi) to my aging grand parents and the rest of my family. Do you think that it is unreasonable to expect to be able to get an IT job somewhere in my whole state?

            So, I decided to build my own experience by starting a consulting company. I have a few clients and for right now it adds some additional income. But, I'm not getting the pay or benefits as a real job.

            This isn't about a pity party. It's about realistic examples of the current IT industry. People can realize that they had some good luck and/or had some good contacts - or they can think that everyone else is lazy and that the industry is thriving when many of our jobs are going over seas.

             

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              TheDock22, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 1:31pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              You contradict yourself:

              I'm not unwilling to move, but I don't want to have to move out of the state. I would like to be reasonably close (less than 200mi) to my aging grand parents and the rest of my family.

              And then:

              Do you think that it is unreasonable to expect to be able to get an IT job somewhere in my whole state?

              You specifically say you want to find a job within 200 miles of where you currently live which, depending on your state, is an unreasonable expectation. Nurses, teachers, and other careers like that can not even find a job within 200 miles of where they currently are.

              Now as far as their not being a job in the whole state, again depends on the state but I find that hard to believe. Some corporations do not bother posting ads in the paper or online, you need to go to their websites and look up job positions.

              So, I decided to build my own experience by starting a consulting company.

              That's wonderful. Plus it's a good idea for anyone who does not think they have enough experience.

              People can realize that they had some good luck and/or had some good contacts - or they can think that everyone else is lazy and that the industry is thriving when many of our jobs are going over seas

              The majority of jobs going over seas are Tier I Tech Support positions, which companies had to look elsewhere since they had a hard time filling those positions in the US. And as far as Systems, Network, and LAN administration goes, well those jobs are safely secure in the US. Every medium to large sized company needs a hardware guy/gal, not just technology companies.

              As far as programming goes, I see many Tier II and Tier III Support positions open with no one either willing to fill them or not even applying because they do not think they have a shot.

              There are many opportunities out there in the tech world, I searched Monster for Computer Services, Computer hardware, and computer software jobs and my search had over 8,000 jobs posted.

              Plus, if you really want a job, drop your resume off to any of the major companies around your area. If you really have good skills and special talents, then they would create a job for you. Our company does it all the time.

               

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                Anonymous Coward, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 2:39pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                "Nurses, teachers, and other careers like that..." Those jobs require hands on time, mine does not. My keyboard at home works just as well as the one in my office...

                 

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                  TheDock22, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 4:01pm

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                  How hard is it to get up and drive your lazy butt to work? MY job requires hands on time, I do system and network administration.

                  Beside, lots of smaller companies do not let their source code leave the offices because they are afraid someone will steal it, so the only way to work is to go into the office. Also, communication and development with your fellow co-workers can save time and money rather than having to call or e-mail each person you need to speak with.

                  If your argument is "Someone should give me a job because I have experience, but I want to stay where I am" then that is pretty lame and proves you do not want to be a team player for that company. The person who will physically show up at the office will win the job over someone who has experience, but does not want to move (does not show very good initiative).

                  People in India do not work from home and that was not even the topic of discussion, now was it?

                   

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                    Anonymous Coward, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 7:33pm

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                    The point of India was geography being important so it is on topic or did you not read?

                    I drive 22 miles to work every day, so shut you pie hole when you don't know what you are talking about. I also moved 774 miles to take my current job, so again shut your pie hole.

                    Whether the people in India work from home or not is irrelevant, the point is 90% of the people I work with are not geographically near me, therefore geography is irrelevant.

                    The idea that you have to work from the office so people don't steal your source code is stupid and if you actually read techdirt regularly, not going to protect you.

                    Last I checked, we have video conferencing, teleconferencing and Instant message collaboration...I don't call each person on a project, I am on 3 to 20 way calls daily, yet another of your points that is irrelevant.

                     

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                      TheDock22, Apr 27th, 2007 @ 8:41am

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                      I drive 22 miles to work every day, so shut you pie hole when you don't know what you are talking about. I also moved 774 miles to take my current job, so again shut your pie hole.

                      Well then you ignorant fool, what do you have to complain about? The whole flow of the comment discussion was the fact that tech people are having trouble finding jobs. Since you have a job, your comment is completely stupid and irrelevant.

                      My point was there are jobs available as long as you are willing to relocate. You may video conference, teleconference, etc., but you still DRIVE 22 miles to works and relocated 774 miles away which proves my point. The people who are whining they should be able to find a tech job and NOT have to move from where they are have unrealistic expectations.

                      The idea that you have to work from the office so people don't steal your source code is stupid and if you actually read techdirt regularly, not going to protect you.

                      Assuming you can't trust your employees, true. But if setup on an internal info structure completely separated from the outside internet access and not allowing just any employee to access code, you can have quite a handle on this. Many companies has found ways to keep their data secure, only a few companies are too dumb to think about tight security regulations.


                      Last I checked, we have video conferencing, teleconferencing and Instant message collaboration...I don't call each person on a project, I am on 3 to 20 way calls daily, yet another of your points that is irrelevant.


                      Well yay for you. Every company is different. Bigger companies can afford to setup things like that, but smaller companies would prefer to have their employees onsite. The point being though that you go to an office to do your work rather than sit around at home. Go to your boss and ask if you can setup a teleconferencing unit at your house and work from home. I bet he says no.

                      Having the ability to program from home if you physically can't make it to work is one thing. It is completely different to say "I am smart and should be able to work at home if I don't want to move so give me the job over someone in India" is laziness.

                       

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      John Roberts, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 11:49am

      Re:

      LAN Administration and PC tech positions are not generally outsourced overseas. It might be a little difficult to troubleshoot a physical problem from across the ocean. *grin*

       

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      Chris Maresca, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 12:44pm

      Re:

      Linux. As a LAN administrator, you should heavily beef up your Linux skills. Get certified, learn how to do automation, troubleshoot software/hardware issues, etc. Linux is experiencing massive growth (42% increase in demand in the last year alone -see DICE links above) and there is a huge shortage of people with ANY experience in it. Best part is you can install it on that left over PC in your closet and download it for free.

      I dare anybody to find even one PC-related component that has a "Made in USA" label on it.

      You mean other than the three most expensive things in there - the GPU, CPU and the OS (if running WinXX)? ;-)

      While most of the hardware many not be manufactured in the US anymore, the IP certainly is, and that's what makes the hardware valuable (otherwise it's just a bunch of sand...).

      Chris.

       

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      ehrichweiss, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 1:30pm

      Re:

      An AC wrote:

      "That is exactly the question I've been asking ever since I got my college degree."

      I'm willing to bet that your college degree is the thing holding you back. Wait before you spew hatred my direction.

      No one I know in the IT industry will hire anyone who has gone to college in the field because by the time you're done with college, most of the things you've learned have become obsolete. By the time someone has time to write a book on a concept in computers, get it published, added to a college curriculum, professors have time to actually teach it to students and they graduate, that concept has been revised and upgraded twice and the knowledge learned on the subject in college is pointless.

      A friend spent some 5 years in college getting his CS degree; in that time he learned 1/10th of what I had done with self-study. He has no idea how to program any current language and he has no experience. I have most current languages AND 5 years experience using them in the same period(I actually can program in 150+ languages and have 25+ years experience but I digress). He works doing tech support for an ISP owned by a mutual friend. This mutual friend is one of those people I referred to since he refuses to let the college grad do anything other than tech support because that's all he knows how to do. I'll just modestly say that I don't have that problem.

      I DID go to college but dropped out when I was told that they had no plans to teach the, then, new 'C' language and realized that they only had plans to teach us spreadsheets, word processors, and the most advanced language they'd teach us was Pascal. It might have been different if I'd have attended MIT instead but I could barely afford the $3800/semester(read that again, that was 20 years ago so you know it wasn't cheap and at the time they were considered a "decent" technical college) much less what MIT was asking.

       

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    TheDock22, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 10:45am

    Skills

    I agree with the point that technology firms are looking for specific skill sets when it comes to developers. I can guarantee most developers are either too lazy to keep their skills honed or too proud of their accomplishments in one language to start from scratch in another.

    Also, their is pride among developers who feel they are too good for certain jobs that really require technical expertise. For example, we've been trying to fill a position for a product assurance engineer for months now. They would be responsible for taking our product, testing it out with all the different databases, operating systems, etc. and then writing code to fix any bugs. All of our applicants either have the wrong experience (JAVA instead of .NET for example) or want to be an actual developer, the will specifically say that the job is beneath them.

    Also, another factor is developers expect to get jobs in their home state or wherever they want to live. There are plenty of great tech jobs around the country as long as you are dedicated enough in the field to relocate.

    All of you developers saying there are no jobs out there obviously are not making an effort to find them. They do exist around the country.

     

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      John W, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 10:51am

      Re: Skills

      "All of you developers saying there are no jobs out there obviously are not making an effort to find them. They do exist around the country."


      That is a good point. I started looking elsewhere for jobs a few months ago, hope you are right.

       

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        TheDock22, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 10:59am

        Re: Re: Skills

        Try looking in states with lower populations: North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, Wyoming, etc...

        They are just starting to boom in the technology field and are really desperate for tech industry employees. Take a look at the big cable company here:

        http://www.bresnan.com/careers/openings.asp

        And no, I do not work for them. I just know my state is getting desperate to locate good tech people.

         

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    Pro, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 10:55am

    1992

    Some of you entry level guys are probably having the same problem that I had in '92 when I graduated with a EE degree. They were hiring guys with 5 years experience and paying them 19K simply because they COULD.

    I'll state again, like I do every time an article like this gets posted, the tech industry isn't destroyed, but it's a really really bad idea to actually BE a tech guy now. It's very HARD work, and it pays OK, but isn't keeping up with pace. I'm at a time in my life where i'm seeing a lot of my friends do things that i can't do now because i don't have that kind of monetary firepower. These guys are no rocket scientists mind you, but they're joining country clubs and eating at steakhouses while i'm working late sifting through 1s and 0s. Who's the smart one? I dunno anymore.

     

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    TheDock22, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 11:04am

    Another piece of advise...

    Just because the job posting SAYS 2-5 years of experience does not mean they will not consider you at all. Just bring proof to the interview of your skills like a program or sample of code you have written.

    If you have the skills, expertise is negotiable. Give it a shot on your next interview, you may be surprised.

     

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    Steve, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 11:38am

    Greasing the wheels

    Obama's latest book has some good points on this -- He points out (as this blog did) that it's counter productive to try to stop globalization in high-tech jobs and other areas. But he also notes that this country can make make the process more efficient -- and encourage greater risk taking by employers, employees, and investors -- by having some basic systems and programs in place that ease the inevitable transitions most of us will face several times over the nexst 20 years... better retraining & life-long learning programs, more portable health-care, etc. Worth a read.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 11:46am

    Another piece of advice

    You dont have to work for someone to gain experience. Just start developing on your own and build your skill set.

    Its more important that you can speak to what you have done than who you have done it for.

     

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    angry dude, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 12:29pm

    "Another important thing is to network. I know it sounds trite and a waste of time, but, over time (meaning a couple of years), it can really pay dividends. A lot of jobs are never advertised, so the only way you'll ever hear about them is through your network."

    And always, always, wear clean underwear for your job interviews...

     

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    Doin Good, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 12:36pm

    You gotta lie

    Hahaha, I'm laughing all the way to the bank @ >$30hr as a web developer contractor. Been with the same huge company now for over 2 years.

    I'm a 9th grade drop out with a GED who played with the Internet a lot developing web sites. No college or certifications to speak of. But if you saw my resume you'd be impressed. I'm not condoning lying and I don't like to, but I felt I was forced to after about 2 years of job hunting. Once I switched my story about my experience, bam, landed a good one.

    I justify my actions because I really do know what I'm doing. I really am good at what I do and I know I deserve the job and pay in exchange for my skills and contribution. I studied hard and really did earn experience, just not "on the job" experience. Hell, I even created a semi-successful online business that I also used as a reference. Hows that for a go-getter. Still running it and making extra cash on the side too.

    The jobs are out there, you just got to get creative and know what your doing when you get there. I was interviewing at a rate of 2 to 3 a week. Now that I've got this under my belt, the next one will be even easier and hopefully more pay. I keep up with the latest stuff and now have certifications to prove it. Back then I just needed a foot in the door, even if I had to jam it in there and lie about it. Now my resume is a little more semi-honest. Got to have that college degree in there or they won't even read it.

    Whats funny is that of a team of about 30 developers here, I am the most innovative developer. They are all old guys who all have college degrees but I swear they're dumb as nails and not at all into programming. Still doing linear crap instead of OOP. I've never heard a casual conversation from them about technology, just sports and old people stuff. Yes, I'm worth every bit what they're paying me and more. It's good to be me. My own business to fall back on and experience in the latest and hottest demanding technologies. According to career info I'm worth no less than 85k.

     

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    angry dude, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 1:16pm

    "While most of the hardware many not be manufactured in the US anymore, the IP certainly is, and that's what makes the hardware valuable (otherwise it's just a bunch of sand...)."

    So let's kill all patents then...

    Your logic is flawless

     

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    Nagarajan Natarajan, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 1:18pm

    Poor you.

    While all you lab rats whine and rant about how you are not able to find a "good" job your masters are seeking more skilled workers and 9 out of the 10 resumes they get are from H1b workers. You dont want to take that oppurtunity because 1) you need a full time job 2) you want to live with your parents 3) you obviously dont want to keep moving state to state often 4) You need Job security(watever that means) 5) and you need all the benifts like medical insurance, yearly bonus, perks and blah blah blah. If you only could adjust a little bit and compromise on menial things you can definitely find a 'good' job and work your way up.

     

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      identicon
      Anonymous Coward, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 2:45pm

      Re: Poor you.

      I have interviewed 30+ guys from and in India with resumes and degrees that should be able to answer and question I have asked them...between the 3 minute lag to answer questions and different voices answering questions I have come to this conclusion: If you can't tell me to us nslookup and ping -a when you have no network connectivity to an application using hostnames, you are not touching any of my production servers.

      We had guys answering 30 out of 30 questions right, but couldn't use the program to save their lives. How can it be on your resume that you have 5 years of experience with a product and not know how to use it?

       

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    chris (profile), Apr 26th, 2007 @ 2:01pm

    it's called contracting

    if you are pissed about jobs being outsorced, then go work for the people they outsource to.

    there are a hundred "consulting" firms (RHI, manpower professional, aerotek, kforce, etc.) that offer short term projects to help you get your foot in the door. sure, you are pretty much working for cash, and the projects might be pretty short term, but if you need to get paid to work, you have to do the work that's paying.

    except for that rough spot after the dot com bust in 2002 i have been steadily employed either fulltime or with contract work for 10 years. i dropped out of college 7 years ago because school cut into my ability to work overtime.

    i'm now back in school so expand from IT into web media because i have taught myself everything i can.

    and BTW there are no entry level programming jobs becuase there are no entry level software developers.

    you don't graduate from college and walk into development.

    you get into the software industry by testing. you unemployed CS majors should take those degrees and apply for software QA positions. yes you can test while you're in college.

    the work will be easier to get thanks you your mad CS skillz and it will make you a *much* better dev.

    if the QA managers want experience, volunteer with an open source project and test for them. log good bugs and take copies of your bug reports to your interviews.

    you show a QA manager a bug that you logged that lead to a point release and he'll hire you on the spot.

     

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    Nagarajan, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 2:56pm

    @52. This world aint perfect innit? There are always people posing they are something which they are not. I am sorry you had to go thru the ordeal of interviewing but i myself beefed up the resume when i first came to this country looking for oppurtunities. As someone mentioned in their earlier comment there is hardly any entry level positions so i was pushed to do something which i really dont want to do. I entered the industry knowing little or nothing but a month in the gig i learnt everything ...yes everything which is required to deliver my responsibilities. fair enough?

     

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      Anonymous Coward, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 7:37pm

      Re:

      No you lied and someone else had to cover you and train you in something you said you knew how to do. Most likely while someone who really did know what they were doing lost the job. I hate training people like you and love to see their contracts end, and actually revel in the opportunity to get to help make the decision. I have had to train too many people who are supposedly knowledgeable in a subject but take lower pay. They then tend to turn out to be someone I have to train, when we had someone who could do the job but was not chosen due to money.

       

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    identicon
    Paul, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 8:26pm

    Re:

    Hi Mike,

    Your statement above, while technically true, is also misleading (the cited Newsweek article is even worse, fwiw.)

    The math that Newsweek didn't bother to do is here, if you're interested --> http://tinyurl.com/37d9cx

    Best Regards,
    Paul

     

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    freakinmaniac, Apr 26th, 2007 @ 11:49pm

    job 4 me..

    can somebody get ME a job?!

     

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    Donna Lodrini, Apr 27th, 2007 @ 8:17am

    Re: A struggling IT professional

    I have been working for my company in Applications Developement for 8 years, and have been in the buisness for over 15 years. It seems that the industry at large prefers to outsource IT positions rather than mentor and train US graduates and juniors to the field. I do not see any benefits to outsourcing -- every day my position becomes less and less secure, pay-raises are lower, benefits eroded. I am thinking of moving to India, where, with my experience, I could get a well paid job, better benefits, and, because the cost of living is lower, live like a king. I suggest that our college grads do the same. The climate is pretty nice too! Neither the government, nor corporations concerned about the working class, about the next generation, about retaining the intellectual real-estate in this country. Its all about profits!

     

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    identicon
    jLl, Apr 27th, 2007 @ 9:57am

    Job Searching

    Through most of the complaints elaborated on, it seems most just don't know how to find a good job.

    The job listings, at the company I work for, is about 10-15 strong for IT, those usually only stay listed for about 2-3 weeks, and are quickly replaced by someone looking to hire someone else as well.

    While I can't say I read all 61 prior comments, most seem to be labeling "outsourcing" in a similar fashion as "tv and video game violence." You're ignoring countless other possibilities for why you don't get the jobs...going down as far as "you just suck at interviewing". Face it...your skill set doesn't mean much if you piss off the interviewer. Cause, if they don't think they can stand to work with you, they aren't going to hire you.

    For some farfetching...
    Maybe you're one of the few idiots who still aims for the "dark dungeon" room in the back corner of the company.
    Or, you're just too damn greedy and think $120,000/year is too cheap for recent graduates.

     

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    identicon
    jLl, Apr 27th, 2007 @ 10:13am

    Job Searching (cont.)

    Not to mention, all the pessimism, that most of you are radiating, isn't going to get you anywhere either. It sells you as being unconfident in yourself and your work; giving the interviewer no reason whatsoever to be confident in your work either. Ultimately, making it a risk to hire you.

    See...this is optimism and confidence in the future of my career:

    The job listings, at the company I work for, is about 10-15 strong for IT, those usually only stay listed for about 2-3 weeks, and are quickly replaced by someone looking to hire someone else as well.

    People are constantly getting hired and more openings follow.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]


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