And The Lord Said, Let There Be Spywayre

from the moral-relativism-in-digital-worlds dept

Apparently, "Thou shalt not distribute spyware" isn't one of the Ten Commandments. Left Behind Games, a maker of evangelical Christian videogames, has partnered with startup Double Fusion to distribute and track in-game advertising. There's nothing new about in-game advertising itself, and it can even enhance the realism of the game. But when you're battling the Antichrist on the streets of Manhattan, and pause to read a billboard on the side of a building, you probably don't expect that information (along with your personal information) to be sent to the advertiser. For Left Behind's part, the company has been getting these games into kids' hands by distributing free disks at churches around the country. This is straight out of the spyware playbook: give out free games and then track the user. It's no surprise that the in-game advertising market would give rise to user tracking -- information that marketers love -- but who would have guessed that a Christian company would be such a pioneer in this type of activity?


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  1.  
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    Anonymous Bum, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 11:51am

    Christians

    My advice to people about doing business with christians is don't! They are the worst. They expect everything for free because they are Christians.

     

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  2.  
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    LiLWiP, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 11:52am

    And there was spyware

    and it was good. And the lord sayeth unto you, tracking cookies are not edible, but should be present on all religious websites... And so it was done.



    Blessed are the spammers: for they shall inherit the internet.

     

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  3.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 12:15pm

    Re: Christians

    That comment was so stupid I don't know how to respond...

     

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  4.  
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    Ben, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 12:16pm

    hey now, im a christian and don't want everything to be free :P ya bum

     

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  5.  
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    Topher3105, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 12:16pm

    Hmm

    So, when you stop in the game and see "Prepare to meet Thy God", do you get a nasty shock through the controller?

    The real problem with doing business with Christians is that they feel they are right and everybody else is wrong. The customer is always right doesn't apply to them.

     

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  6.  
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    NSMike, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 12:22pm

    Re: Hmm

    The real problem with doing business with Non-Christians is that they feel they are right and all Christians are wrong. The self-righteous tolerance babble doesn't apply to them.

    Unfair generalizations can work both ways.

     

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  7.  
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    Devil in a blue suit., Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 12:26pm

    I don't believe it all Christians. I think we're running into the classical 80/20 rule. That 20%, the fringe radicals, are giving the other 80% a bad name. And its that same 20% that speaks(screams) with the loudest voice.

     

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  8.  
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    qwerty12345, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 12:27pm

    Real Christians

    Real Christians don't expect to be treated any different then anyone else.

    They understand "there is no respect of persons with God."....

     

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  9.  
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    Charlie Bucket, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 12:33pm

    Christians & The Church

    Biggest & nastiest CORP. out there

     

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  10.  
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    anonymgrl, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 12:34pm

    thanks

    this s about the stupidest thing i've read all day...and i was in need of an incredulous laugh. please, keep arguing about it, my day is just getting worse and i might need some more comedy.

     

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  11.  
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    COD, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 12:35pm

    Just think of the possibilities though. They could pump unwholesome ads into the game, and if you pause to long at the ad, or God forbid try to click on it, the game automatically reports you to your parents and pastor, and maybe sends a nasty shock through the controller too.

     

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  12.  
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    Chistian, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 12:41pm

    Chistian

    What's a Chistian?

     

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  13.  
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    Andrew N., Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 12:43pm

    Sigh...

    They should never have come out with a video game in the first place. "Look at us, we're cool, you can be a Christian and still play violent video games!" won't actually win anyone to Chrisitanity.

    The gospel is offensive, at least the Christian one... so it says in the good book (1 Corinthians 1). We're not supposed to win people over with a cool "Christian culture." We're supposed to speak the message, and let it stand for itself. Stuff like this makes me sick.

     

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    MarkPDX, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 12:45pm

    I am not a Christian. If you don't stand up for kids being hit with spyware because they are maybe Christian or maybe just like a free game I won't wish you to hell but I would enjoy a good old case of non-christian spyware/identity theft on you!
    Karma is Alive and Kicking!! Praise Darwin.

     

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    MarkPDX, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 12:46pm

    I am not a Christian. If you don't stand up for kids being hit with spyware because they are maybe Christian or maybe just like a free game I won't wish you to hell but I would enjoy a good old case of non-christian spyware/identity theft on you!
    Karma is Alive and Kicking!! Praise Darwin.

     

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  16.  
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    Stauch_Atheist, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 12:46pm

    Christian: zero value adjective

    I love these threads! The root cause of all the huzzah is the FACT that the term 'Christian' is completely useless as a discriminator. There are ten thousand niche ideologies calling themselves 'Christians' and if you put them all in the Roman Coliseum, they'd kill each other over their differences -- no lion req'd!

     

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  17.  
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    The Enforcer, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 12:47pm

    Re: Hmm

    "The real problem with doing business with Christians is that they feel they are right and everybody else is wrong. The customer is always right doesn't apply to them."

    I would have to believe that that comment could easily apply to any religion (or other belief). How else to explain the prolifigation of wars that have occured because of beliefs?

     

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  18.  
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    Distrustful, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 12:51pm

    Christian Marketing is EVIL

    I think Jesus would get out his whip and clear away all the people who are making themselves rich in the name of religion, specifically Christianity. He did it in the Jerusalem temple, one of the few recorded instances of his anger. Being a Christian has become mostly BUYING the right stuff: T-shirts, little fish icons, WWJD bracelets, music, books, DVDs, the list goes on.

    Let us play in peace!

     

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  19.  
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    NSMike, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 12:57pm

    Frustrations

    It amazes me how many and how often people bash Christians...

    Not all of us are evangelical nutjobs who think Christianity is a marketing campaign or a theocratic ideal. Some of us are just people who want to help others and see love spread around to everyone; who want to see a superficial and spiteful world stop blaming everyone for everything, realize we all have faults and all have to work together to overcome them.

    Before you generalize "Christians" into one group, realize that the word "Christian" is extremely general in and of itself. It covers people on a spectrum from intolerant evangelicals who believe all must conform to them, to liberal idealists preaching tolerance for all. I fall squarely in the middle of that spectrum, but think before you get your Christian hate on.

     

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  20.  
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    Rikko, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 1:04pm

    Re: Frustrations

    You've done a pretty good job of lumping yourself into the group of deluded nut jobs that the growing intellect class is starting to speak out against.
    Don't take it personally, it's just the inconsistency (nay, utter lack) in logic when matters of faith come up that undermines anything else you say.
    Your love is rejected because the sole basis of the comfort is "because my daddy's daddy told my daddy and my daddy told me". Faith is indoctrination, not a trait like respect or empathy.
    It's a scary, cold world without the safety blanket of fictitious love from above, but it's more honest and once you realize that you cope better.

     

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  21.  
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    Xander the Technotheologian, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 1:04pm

    Anyone who has tinkered with PC hardware...

    Anyone who has tinkered with PC hardware knows that serving two masters is a conflicting scenario that can lead to hardware failure. And likewise serving both God and Mammon, to soulware failure.

     

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  22.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 1:07pm

    Big Brother is watching you.

    WAR IS PEACE
    IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
    FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

    lol

     

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  23.  
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    Posterlogo, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 1:07pm

    Nothing wrong with Christians, just the video game

    I am not Christian... don't have much respect for any organized religion, just belive in personal spiritualness, without rigid commandments. Harping on Christains for the ridiculousness of one Christian corporation is just plain dumb. That said, this particular corporation, http://www.leftbehindgames.com/pages/the_games.htm, must be one of the most hypocritical sacks-of-shit out there. The games are all about violence. If you pray hard enough, your military forces improve, thus helping you conduct even more brutal warfare. That must be stupidest thing I've ever heard. The idea that God is on "our" side is pathetic. I just hope I'm on God's side, if there is a God.

     

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  24.  
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    Distrustful, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 1:12pm

    Re: Christian: zero value adjective

    So TRUE! LOL, yet, that would be a sad and gruesome sight, the world is fighting ever religion right now, terrorism is nothing but extremist religious blindness.

     

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  25.  
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    Kilroy, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 1:15pm

    Advertising isn't evil.

    Ok, for starters, the Left Behind series is produced by a company that is doing what companies set out to do: make money. Their target audience is Christians and more specifically, young Christians.

    The act of "making christianity cool" is done by marketing teams for similar compaines that are trying to sell cd's, fictional books, video games, etc. This game wasn't released by the Church as a recruiting tool any more than the Da Vinci Code was.

    Second, if you can lump all Christians into one category and label them you are probably the same type of person who thinks every Muslim carries an Ak-47 and that gravity is a Jewish plot to steal your pocket change.

    Now, having said all that, I think it's time that the world woke up and realized that there is serious marketing potential in video games. Sending information back to a source about which ads you looked at and which you didn't lets companies make ads more effective and drives sales to a target audience. You can't buy feedback that effective in the real world, but in a virtual world you can track everything a player does. As long as they aren't giving out personal information or distracting from my game experience, I say let them do it.

     

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  26.  
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    DV Henkel-Wallace, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 1:27pm

    Snowcrash!

    Didn't Neal Stephenson say that religion was a virus?

     

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  27.  
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    NSMike, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 1:27pm

    Re: Re: Frustrations

    @Rikko

    You assume I'm not intellectual. I happen to be.

    I have a BA in English, which includes much more than you realize. English can become a very philosophical subject when dealing with interpreting literature and literary signs that present themselves in modern culture.

    One of the biggest things that I learned from English is to question everything. I'm not a protestant nutjob evangelical. I'm Roman Catholic. Have been all of my life. I questioned much in college, considering why I believed what I believe, considered going MORE conservative for a time, considered total rejection, and logically reasoned out why I decided to stay Roman Catholic. Not all Christians are intellectual dimwits. Another generalization.

    Because you can't fathom reasons for believing in a "higher power," you condemn and insult others for not following your beliefs. In this manner, you are worse than the great majority of conservative Christians in this country. You're on par with a large minority of conservative evangelical Christians, whose primary task is aggressive conversion.

    Maybe faith is an indoctrination. Maybe cynicism is too. Who is the true victim here, you or me? I can't say. But I can say that I'd rather have faith than be cynical.

     

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  28.  
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    Coward, maybe, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 1:29pm

    Re: Frustrations

    There is a very good reason that a lot of people are bashing christians. 1) Who is trying to limit what I can watch on TV, (indecency act) - Christians. 2) Who is trying to ban books in schools and libraries - Christians. 3) Who is trying to limit what is thought in school about sexuality (abstinance or no federal money) - Christians. 4) Who is trying to prevent women from deciding what to do about their own bodies (abortion) - Christians. 5) Who is trying to ban same sex marriage - Christians. Those are just a few examples of what the Christians are trying to do, controling what others can do. I know it's not all Christians that are doing that, but it's the one that we hear about and have to suffer under.

     

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  29.  
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    paul, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 1:29pm

    they're trying to indoctrinate you

    they're trying to indoctrinate you, and make you think what they think, just like the advertizers. no difference.

     

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  30.  
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    That one Guy, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 1:30pm

    LOL

    I love reading all these comments, especially the ones that actually are well thought out and balanced.

    Am I the only one who thinks that 'Spyware' is spelled 'Spyware', not 'Spywayre' ?

     

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  31.  
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    i'm a christian, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 1:33pm

    Re: Christians

    you are completely right. christians only believe stuff when all they have to do is talk, any more than that and christians might as well be counted out.

     

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  32.  
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    Hrm..., Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 1:38pm

    Re: Re: Frustrations

    Well... your comments show more a lack of intellect rather than an abundance of it.

    First of all, a smart person judges people as individuals... where is the discernemnt in your generalized dismissal of anyone calling themselves a Christian?

    Second, logic will not ever be able to fully explain matters of faith... but some people would rather live without faith than have to trust it...

    Agreed, though - a faith that is rooted in indoctrination is a weak faith indeed... Better the faith that comes through a personal relationship with God... a lot of so-called Christians may fall in the former category, but not all - more and more people are coming to realize that being a Christian is more than lip service.

    As for the "ficticious love from above" ... well, as a follower of Christ, I prefer to rely on the Love that lives inside me... as the Scriptures teach.

     

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  33.  
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    Andrew N., Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 1:43pm

    Re: Re: Frustrations

    1) Limiting indecency is according to our moral standard. Should we probably just be okay with giving up TV? Yeah, I think so. That doesn't mean it's right for indecency to be viewable by any kid.

    2) Trying to ban books in schools and libraries? Could you site some sources? Once again, any cases are becuse we have our values. Should we give up on the public school system and stick with homeschooling? Probably. That doesn't mean it's right to teach biased one-sided arguments in schools.

    3) When I was in sixth grade, an assebly was called and we were told about the dangers of sex and the option of abstinence. Compared with the danger, it looked like the only fool-proof option to me. The other view is to have only the "condoms are the only way to go" viewpoint, which happens to be just as controlling.

    4) The debate of abortion isn't about whether women have rights over their bodies, but whether an unborn baby is a human, because if it is, it's not about women having rights over their own bodies, but whether they have rights over someone else's.

    5) Yes, we are trying to ban same-sex marriage, because according to our values, it's wrong. Yep, that's right, it's wrong.

    Honestly, I'm probably one of those that people would call an intolerant Christian. I am not, however a biggot, and I don't condone everything the religious right does, especially violence. I abhor violence, as I think it is against New Testament teachings. So while I do seek the end of every other religion (including atheism and self-worship), I don't seek to do so violently. Games like this are ridiculous.

     

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  34.  
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    Andrew N., Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 1:45pm

    Re: LOL

    That's the Olde English spelling :)

     

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  35.  
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    charlie potatoes, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 1:47pm

    worshipping the sun

    yeah ... the invisible man who can't seem to manage his money answers prayers at about the same rate as the sun. and the sun is a lot cheaper. plus you can see it..feel it. thank you george carlin...

     

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  36.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 1:59pm

    Re: Advertising isn't evil.

    I though all muslims did have ak-47's just like all indians have american jobs and mexicans are dirty and canadians are stupid.
    You're telling me all this is wrong?
    Except for the canadians right?

     

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  37.  
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    Yaweh, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 2:00pm

    God Hates Christians......

    The trump card on all of this, is the fact that the "Christian Faith" blossomed from an Elite group that traveled the world slaughtering all they did not understand. They never attempted to learn from these "subhumans", nor did they try to tolerate them. This was the "Crusades". Millions of humans with deep ties to century old beliefs were wiped from the face of the earth for failing to denounce their gods and accept "GOD" the ONE AND ONLY. Christians as a whole lump are the scourge of the earth. I have never seen a "Christian" do a good deed to do a good deed. It is always to avoid smite, or stay on gods good side. Its absurd to say one is a "good" christian, By definition a christian is a rapist, thief who will force you to succomb to their way or destroy everything you have and love untill you have nothing left and are forced to grovel at his feet for forgiveness. That sounds a lot like what i was told about god in early years, "You stay on gods good side and he will shower you with gifts and affection.... If you sin YOU WILL BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY ! ! ! " Christian = That Snot Nosed Brat In Kindergarten That Would Cry When You Wouldnt Give Up That Block In YOUR Hand...

     

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  38.  
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    STJ, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 2:01pm

    Here I thought this was a tech thread, not an anti-Christian thread, where's the anti-Budust thread? Wait, there isn't one because that would not be nice..

     

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  39.  
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    Anonymous Christian Gamer Coward, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 2:02pm

    I just got this cool free game, called LEFT BEHIND: Eternal Forces. Anybody want to play with me? I'm on level 87, battling Kirk Cameron, but I keep getting these nasty shocks...

     

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  40.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 2:03pm

    When was the last time a Monk told you your god is the wrong god?????

     

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  41.  
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    dog, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 2:08pm

    god

    "But I can say that I'd rather have faith than be cynical."

    Well English major-
    I'd rather be a philosopher disquieted, than a fool at peace.

    Beliefs are primarily what are wrong with religion- because they can be wrong/false/argued.

    Have an idea of what it is for you to be spiritual and understand that it could (and probably is) different for everyone else.

    The second you assume that right and wrong have anything to do with spirtuality (or lack there of), you make yourself better in your own mind, and it is on the grounds of "superiority" and "righteousness" that people die for peace.

     

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  42.  
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    Judas Pirest, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 2:16pm

    Christian Cookies

    When are we going to make it illegal to utter slurs against creed? OOPS - its already been done and I'm surprised this site lets such stereotypical slander stand. I happen to be a Christian yet I have never taken part in developing this game nor do I condone the tracking they are designed to do. There are dangers in stereotyping and prejudism - these can lead to prosecution in front of a Human Rights Tribunal. Prejudism is prejudism - one doesn't have to just slander a visible minority to be guilty. We Christians aren't all so bad - its just the big mouths you hear from all the time.

     

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  43.  
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    I said it once..., Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 3:12pm

    And I'll say it again...

    Paul was the Karl Rove of Christianity

     

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  44.  
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    Monarch, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 3:20pm

    Re: Re: Re: Frustrations

    Hmmmm..,
    Reading your comments Andrew, and all I read is BIGGOT!!!

    I think I've met maybe 2 people in my life who go to church regularly and call themselves Christian, who don't spout bigotry and show it in their actions. I've met more devout Muslims in my life who are less Bigotted than devout Christians.

    And yet, I would consider myself Christian, yet I believe the Bible to be a ficticious document based on historical fact. But like the telephone game, it is filled with stories passed on by many generations of MEN before it was ever written down. Heck, the original Adam and Eve story could have been God trying to explain to Moses how he created Man and Woman in scientific terms, but it got all messed up, because Moses didn't have an iota of scientific thought processes, and it became what it was, and then even simplified even more after an eon of the telephone game.

     

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  45.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 3:36pm

    what a load of cack, it's funny how you notice Christianity is the only religion people publicly insult these days, what makes me laughis peoples lack of discussion knowledge, "oh all christians are evil" "oh no they aren't" The four year olds at my mums school could come up with arguments like that, absolutely pathetic! So tell me why is it a Christian company can't track advertising when people know about spyware in non-christian software yet we don't hear about it? Seriously the people that write for this place need to rethink whether they are cut out for journalism coz this article is crap

     

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  46.  
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    perdedor, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 3:41pm

    really christians?

    what if the people manufacturing/distributing the game aren't really christians?

    maybe they're just contracted by the authors/editors of the book to make and distribute the game and the authors/editors don't really know that there's spyware attached. i guess they would still be responsible for being foolish anyway.

    also, i didn't see anything in the original article that stated what exactly is being sent back to the advertiser (or wherever it's being sent). can you say yellow journalism?

     

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  47.  
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    Dulcimist, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 4:08pm

    1) That doesn't mean it's right for indecency to be viewable by any kid.

    This I agree with.

    2) Trying to ban books in schools and libraries? Could you site some sources?

    Don't know about that,but I do know the agenda is to ditch the teachings of Darwin and use IE.(And i don't mean Internet Explorer.)

    3) Compared with the danger, it looked like the only fool-proof option to me.

    Resisting that powerful sex drive won't work for most people though.

    4) The debate of abortion isn't about whether women have rights over their bodies,

    Sure it is...And your saying the unborn is more important than the mother..So the woman can be raped,forced into incest,or whatever and she still has to birth the child even if she does not want to and even if it endangers her life...And even if the child has birth defects and she can't/won't care for it.
    And what happens to that child? Will it be abused,dumped into foster care etc.
    I don't see Christians lining up to adopt all the unwanted children birthed in this world.
    BTW, I saw on the news the crime rate in the USA is now as low as it was in the 1930's. The reason is that abortion has been legal and unwanted children were not born and having to grow up in abusive homes and becoming criminals.

    but whether an unborn baby is a human, because if it is, it's not about women having rights over their own bodies, but whether they have rights over someone else's.

    And by the same token,does an unwanted fetus have the right to use a female's body to it's own ends?
    You odviously have an XY chromosome set,don't you.

    5) Yes, we are trying to ban same-sex marriage, because according to our values, it's wrong. Yep, that's right, it's wrong.

    So you try to force your values on everyone else which is wrong.
    That's right, that's wrong. You do not have the right to dictate what adults do with theirt lives. If gays want to marry, I say go for it.
    Way back when it was just as wrong for people to marry people of other races...This whole flap on gay marriages is based on bigotry.
    And if gayness is so wrong,why does it occur across species?
    Yup,birds,mammals, lizards all have same sex relationships.
    if God didn't want gays here (if there is a God)they simply would not be here...It's the homophobes who fear, loathe gay marrages.

    Honestly, I'm probably one of those that people would call an intolerant Christian. I am not,

    You sure sound like it to me.
    Ummm, lets see,gays can't have the same rights hetros' have.
    Women can't decide when/if they will have children and how many they will have cause YOU will outlaw abortion.

    however a bigot, and I don't condone everything the religious right does, especially violence. I abhor violence,

    As do most people, but in the name of religion, as we all know, nasty things have been done to humans like witch burning,etc.And nasty things still go on in the name of religions.
    I truely believe if Christians got control of this country,non-Christians would be killed, and all gays and bi folks would be killed..And woman who abort a child, regardless of the reason,they would be killed as well...And Dr's who helped the women abort would be killed also.
    Do I want to live in a world like that?
    Nope, sure don't.

    So while I do seek the end of every other religion (including atheism

    And there is the problem, everyone has to be a Christian, just like you.Humm,there are some people across the pond who blew up the WTC who feel EXACTLY the same way...Everyone must believe as THEY do. Do you see something wrong with this picture? I sure do.

    Atheism is not a religion. You are not an atheist to Christianity but you are to all other religions.
    Not everyone WANTS to believe what you do,other people just don't see the world the way you do and these people will never see the world the way you do and nothing you say or do will change them...Ever.

    Games like this are ridiculous.

    I agree with you there...

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  48.  
    identicon
    Rich, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 4:13pm

    Maybe they're in league with satan!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  49.  
    identicon
    Lethal Dose, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 5:05pm

    Anyone that belives life is guided by an all powerfull entity simply lacks the will of thinking for himself
    God did not created mankind.
    Mankind created god.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  50.  
    identicon
    The Ghost in the Machine, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 5:19pm

    Re: Christians (1st post)

    "My advice to people about doing business with christians is don't! They are the worst. They expect everything for free because they are Christians."

    Do you know how retarded that post made you look?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  51.  
    identicon
    I, for one, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 7:14pm

    Wasn't there something about spyware?

    Wasn't the point of the article, which so many have spectacularly missed, that religious people who act all high and mighty should have better ethics? You all just saw the word "Christian" and went off on one spouting irrelevant nonsense.

    Spying on people for profit is wrong in anybodys book. I'm sure the bible has some verse on this sickness of the mind.

    Of course hypocrisy isn't the preserve of those of a religious persuasion. You'd just think they'd behave better right?

    Technically I'm a Christian, being baptised and all. But these people make me ashamed. I think the Romans had it, bring back the lions I say.

     

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  52.  
    identicon
    Agreed., Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 9:02pm

    Re: Re: Re: Frustrations

    "4) The debate of abortion isn't about whether women have rights over their bodies, but whether an unborn baby is a human, because if it is, it's not about women having rights over their own bodies, but whether they have rights over someone else's."

    Sounds about right to me eh?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  53.  
    identicon
    Jeremy, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 9:53pm

    Here's a dose of logic

    Post #47, Dulcimist

    1) At least we agree on something

    2) I don't think any prominent or consequential group is trying to "ditch" Darwin, only to get Intelligent design taught alongside neo-Darwinism. And when the "evidence" for an 4 billion year old earth, and genetic mutations causing the millions of species from a single amoeba is specious at best, I think it would be a great )time to introduce the evidence for a earth that is less than 10,000 years old, and the fact that mutations cannot add another viable and novel trait to a species.

    3) A powerful sex drive can be controlled, people do it all the time (no ironic pun intended.) Besides, I think it is the not within the school's jurisdiction to teach children about sexuality, it is the parents responsibility to impart to their children the dangers of unprotected sex and sexual behavior in general.

    4) Ahh, the great abortion issue, how many times do we have to be reminded that all the time abortions are for those who have been raped, and that if she bore the baby, it would endanger her health, and kill her, and that she doesn't want this baby and doesn't care all at the same time.

    Even though that child was a product of rape or incest, it does not remove the legitimacy of the personhood of that embryo/zygote. Obviously, we could argue this forever, but we are arguing from different perspectives. I assume (and can defensibly argue) my belief that life (and personhood) begins at conception. You would probably argue that life (and personhood) begins at birth.

    Our low crime rate may be apart of the fact that we are killing future criminals, but does that justify murder. You have to see things from the other perspective if you want to debate a prolife person effectively, and more importantly, rationally. I support the death penalty after somebody commits a deserving crime, you support it for those who are innocent.

    And just because children are unwanted/won't be adopted, does that mean that their lives are meaningless, and that they should be killed. What do you suggest for the children (that apparently) are unwanted and are out of the womb, do we kill them, do we invoke some time of post-natal retroactive abortion "woman's rights" principle?

    I like how you relegate a human being to a simple parasite, I guess we're all parasites, even when we do come out of the womb. Children who are out of the womb still leech on their parents, and some parents even have to pay alimony, *AGAINST THEIR WILL* to help support the child. Oh the humanity! (pun intended)

    5) You said, "So you try to force your values on everyone else which is wrong."
    But don't laws do that, force a set of values on everyone else, that is why the only "legal" form of government is anarchy. Why can't we extend your logic this way?

    Yes, Christians want to create a theocracy, with the Zionists so we can control the world. Shhh, don't tell anyone about our conspiracy, you'll blow our cover. Christians can't control themselves, they just want to kill all gays (instead of converting them) and want to kill anyone who disagrees with them.
    How did you know that right after church I go out and bomb abortion clinics, it must have become such a common occurrence that the right wing controlled media doesn't really report anymore.

    Christians aren't saying that their is only one path to God, the Bible is saying that. Yes, and Christians are just like fanatical fundamentalist Muslims, running airplanes into towers, and shouting "Allah Akbar" before disemboweling the infidels.

    Of course unbelievers, the secular world doesn't want to follow Christ, Jesus said that the world will hate Christians, and that we are saved by God, not by ourselves "forging" a path to God, God saves us when we accept him. Sadly some Christians don't get the fact that it is not the Christian who ultimately saves the person, it is God.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  54.  
    identicon
    Holy Crap, I'm Catholic, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 10:24pm

    Re: Dulcimist

    Just to get a couple of things straight...

    "2). Don't know about that,but I do know the agenda is to ditch the teachings of Darwin and use IE.(And i don't mean Internet Explorer.) "

    I'm pretty sure the "agenda" is not to ditch Darwinism, but teach intelligent design alongside it, as an alternate theory. Whether ID has merit as a scientific theory is another story. (and pardon the ignorace, but what's IE?)

    "3). Resisting that powerful sex drive won't work for most people though."

    That's pretty much many people hate christianity's view on the issue of pre-marital sex. I think abstinence before marriage is honorable, especially since it takes such a huge degree self-control and determination - a degree which most people, including myself, can't reach.

    4). "And your saying the unborn is more important than the mother..So the woman can be raped,forced into incest,or whatever and she still has to birth the child even if she does not want to and even if it endangers her life."

    Thats not what was said. Let me carify what some people who are pro-life (like me) believe. The debate is whether a fetus is a human, because if it is, it changes things. No one's saying that a fetus is MORE important than the mother, rather, if it is human, it is just as important. Rape and incest are tragic, but if a fetus is human, then you're justifying murder with rape/incest. In no circumstances should a woman be forced to have a child if she could lose her life. I think its a heroic and noble thing - giving your life up for another's - but NO ONE has the right to force you to be such a hero.

    "And what happens to that child? Will it be abused,dumped into foster care etc. I don't see Christians lining up to adopt all the unwanted children birthed in this world. "

    So correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like what you're saying is that you care so much for the quality of life for this child that you're willing to kill it before it really has a chance to live. Is no life better than a (possible) bad childhood?

    "BTW, I saw on the news the crime rate in the USA is now as low as it was in the 1930's. The reason is that abortion has been legal and unwanted children were not born and having to grow up in abusive homes and becoming criminals."

    I read about this too (Freakonomics). I think its wise to understand that this is just a theory of why the crime-rate went down, and even if it is true (I think it probably did have some a effect), its very narrow minded to say this was "The Reason" - rather, it may have played a role amid other causes, but to claim that abortion was the sole reason that the crime-rate went down is foolish. But still, even if it is, what about all the babies who weren't going to be crimminals when they got older? Because of the crime rate, would it be okay to go to every minority's home and kill their children? (since you're a rational human being, I figure you'd agree, of course not).

    "And by the same token, does an unwanted fetus have the right to use a female's body to it's own ends?"

    Does the female have the right to be sexually
    promiscuous when she knows she may get pregnant? After all, if you had the sex, you should be prepared to face the possible consequences. There is no birth control which is perfect, so you know that pregnancy is a possible outcome. (Again, rape, incest are a different story, but in America, abortions because of rape/incest/endangerment of the mother account for less than 2% of all abortions - so for 98% of people having abortions, these tragic issues don't even factor in). So for 98%, no one force them to make that baby, and their life is not threatened by the child's existance. The baby didn't ask to be created - you created it, but that doesn't mean you have the right to destroy it.

    "I truely believe if Christians got control of this country,non-Christians would be killed, and all gays and bi folks would be killed..And woman who abort a child, regardless of the reason,they would be killed as well...And Dr's who helped the women abort would be killed also. "

    And I truly feel sorry for you. What would you think if I said "If atheists got control of this country, all christian's would be killed, most babies would be killed because its mother woke up feeling grouchy, no one would think life was precious, and if anyone believed in something that couldn't be proven, they'd be killed as well..." Do I sound completely ridiculous yet?

    " 'Games like this are ridiculous. '
    -I agree with you there..."

    Me too...

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  55.  
    identicon
    Holy Crap, I'm Catholic, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 10:26pm

    Re: Dulcimist

    Just to get a couple of things straight...

    "2). Don't know about that,but I do know the agenda is to ditch the teachings of Darwin and use IE.(And i don't mean Internet Explorer.) "

    I'm pretty sure the "agenda" is not to ditch Darwinism, but teach intelligent design alongside it, as an alternate theory. Whether ID has merit as a scientific theory is another story. (and pardon the ignorace, but what's IE?)

    "3). Resisting that powerful sex drive won't work for most people though."

    That's pretty much many people hate christianity's view on the issue of pre-marital sex. I think abstinence before marriage is honorable, especially since it takes such a huge degree self-control and determination - a degree which most people, including myself, can't reach.

    4). "And your saying the unborn is more important than the mother..So the woman can be raped,forced into incest,or whatever and she still has to birth the child even if she does not want to and even if it endangers her life."

    Thats not what was said. Let me carify what some people who are pro-life (like me) believe. The debate is whether a fetus is a human, because if it is, it changes things. No one's saying that a fetus is MORE important than the mother, rather, if it is human, it is just as important. Rape and incest are tragic, but if a fetus is human, then you're justifying murder with rape/incest. In no circumstances should a woman be forced to have a child if she could lose her life. I think its a heroic and noble thing - giving your life up for another's - but NO ONE has the right to force you to be such a hero.

    "And what happens to that child? Will it be abused,dumped into foster care etc. I don't see Christians lining up to adopt all the unwanted children birthed in this world. "

    So correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like what you're saying is that you care so much for the quality of life for this child that you're willing to kill it before it really has a chance to live. Is no life better than a (possible) bad childhood?

    "BTW, I saw on the news the crime rate in the USA is now as low as it was in the 1930's. The reason is that abortion has been legal and unwanted children were not born and having to grow up in abusive homes and becoming criminals."

    I read about this too (Freakonomics). I think its wise to understand that this is just a theory of why the crime-rate went down, and even if it is true (I think it probably did have some a effect), its very narrow minded to say this was "The Reason" - rather, it may have played a role amid other causes, but to claim that abortion was the sole reason that the crime-rate went down is foolish. But still, even if it is, what about all the babies who weren't going to be crimminals when they got older? Because of the crime rate, would it be okay to go to every minority's home and kill their children? (since you're a rational human being, I figure you'd agree, of course not).

    "And by the same token, does an unwanted fetus have the right to use a female's body to it's own ends?"

    Does the female have the right to be sexually
    promiscuous when she knows she may get pregnant? After all, if you had the sex, you should be prepared to face the possible consequences. There is no birth control which is perfect, so you know that pregnancy is a possible outcome. (Again, rape, incest are a different story, but in America, abortions because of rape/incest/endangerment of the mother account for less than 2% of all abortions - so for 98% of people having abortions, these tragic issues don't even factor in). So for 98%, no one force them to make that baby, and their life is not threatened by the child's existance. The baby didn't ask to be created - you created it, but that doesn't mean you have the right to destroy it.

    "I truely believe if Christians got control of this country,non-Christians would be killed, and all gays and bi folks would be killed..And woman who abort a child, regardless of the reason,they would be killed as well...And Dr's who helped the women abort would be killed also. "

    And I truly feel sorry for you. What would you think if I said "If atheists got control of this country, all christian's would be killed, most babies would be killed because its mother woke up feeling grouchy, no one would think life was precious, and if anyone believed in something that couldn't be proven, they'd be killed as well..." Do I sound completely ridiculous yet?

    " 'Games like this are ridiculous. '
    -I agree with you there..."

    Me too...

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  56.  
    identicon
    Holy Crap, I'm Catholic, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 10:28pm

    Re: Here's a dose of logic

    HEY...Not only did you steal some my arguements, but you posted before me. The nerve.

    BTW...sorry for the double post everyone...my bad

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  57.  
    identicon
    DittoBox, Jun 23rd, 2006 @ 10:33pm

    Re: Christians

    Gotta love the gross over generalizations and labels people use.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  58.  
    identicon
    Shumanka, Jun 24th, 2006 @ 7:40am

    Last Word??

    Can this be the last post... please?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  59.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 24th, 2006 @ 8:36am

    Okay...

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  60.  
    identicon
    Mick, Jun 24th, 2006 @ 1:52pm

    Re: Christians

    Um, the 'left behind' books and games aren't really Christian.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  61.  
    identicon
    jason, Jun 24th, 2006 @ 10:41pm

    this is freakini nsane...as a christian im appaled...

     

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  62.  
    identicon
    ryad, Jun 25th, 2006 @ 9:27am

    Re:

    4) The debate of abortion isn't about whether women have rights over their bodies, Sure it is...And your saying the unborn is more important than the mother..So the woman can be raped,forced into incest,or whatever and she still has to birth the child even if she does not want to and even if it endangers her life...And even if the child has birth defects and she can't/won't care for it. And what happens to that child? Will it be abused,dumped into foster care etc. I don't see Christians lining up to adopt all the unwanted children birthed in this world.

    Can't you pro-abortion people ever come up with a new arguement? There are always exceptions to every rule. Less than 1% of all abortions come from a rape or incest victim. What is the excuse for the other 99%? Abortion CAN NOT be argued in court as a womans right. There is no one saying that women should not have a right over their body. The arguement is ONLY wether or not there is a living being in their body.

    If you woud like to argue the abortion topic, start coming out with facts that prove that the fetus is not alive, otherwise you are arguing apples vs oranges.

    And by the same token,does an unwanted fetus have the right to use a female's body to it's own ends? You odviously have an XY chromosome set,don't you.

    Assuming the fetus is part of the 99%, the woman had the choice and did not take it. it is not the fault of the fetus. Does a conjoined twin have the right to kill their sibling because it is using their body??? What is the difference? Again, you can not argue womens rights. The only question is wether or not a fetus is alive.

    So you try to force your values on everyone else which is wrong. That's right, that's wrong. You do not have the right to dictate what adults do with theirt lives. If gays want to marry, I say go for it.

    So by this thought process the government does not have the right to tell you that lying is wrong, murder is wrong, rape is wrong, driving over the speed limit is wrong???

    There must be a set of rules for everyone to live by whether you believe that gay marrage is right or wrong. I am no homophobe but I do not believe that gay marriage should be recognized by the government as a legal marriage.

     

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  63.  
    identicon
    The Messiah, Jun 25th, 2006 @ 5:53pm

    Fuck you all

    The real problem with christians is that they believe in quite the greatest hoax ever, mangle the idea of MONO(one)theism, and what the fuck does a fish have to do with a very smart jewish guy. On that note another problem is that they dont keep kosher, that is where they truly falter.
    Jesus was jewish... for christ sake.

     

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  64.  
    identicon
    se7en of nine, Jun 25th, 2006 @ 6:59pm

    resistance is futile

    people must understand that most christians don't study their bibles, if they did they would realize that most of christianity has become a money making machine, if you don't believe me turn on TBN, i garanteee you that after only five minutes more people would ask you to give money tgan people begging you for cash on your way home from work, my favorite are these word faith ministers who extort money from the poor, during the whole year 2000 millenium ordeal they asked for people to send in a pledge of $2000, cos they didn't have enough cash to minister to the africans out there & they were afraid that they would all go to hell if nobody sent in money, now since i'm an african $2000 can feed a bunch of poor people here for like a year, so maybe i should give mmmh, then it hit me, like a bowl of rice between falling between two hungry africans, if its that *NB for us to be saved, since we might go to hell {sounds mighty NB to me} then Benny Hinn should sell his $5 million home & use the 4.5 mil on us here in africa or maybe he could sell his $30 million Lear Jet he travels around in these days, can any of you guys spell crook!

    if you wanna read more head on over to http://Bibletruths.com

     

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  65.  
    identicon
    some random guy, Jun 25th, 2006 @ 9:39pm

    Re: God Hates Christians......

    Idiot.

    The Christian faith is NOT about "destroying everything you have and love untill you have nothing left and are forced to grovel at their feet for forgiveness." Obviously you have never done any kind of research into what ANY of the denominations of Christians (even the radical evangelicals) teach. And just because YOU have never seen a Christian doing good for the sake of doing good, doesn't mean it's not happening.

    Also, Christians (at least all from any of the denominations I know of) don't even believe you can "earn" God's favor, so don't start spewing your narrow minded baloney ("[Christians doing good] is always to avoid smite, or stay on gods good side") until you know what the heck you're talking about!!!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  66.  
    identicon
    just someone, Jun 25th, 2006 @ 10:00pm

    Re: F*** you all

    So just because you don't understand something, you immediately insult it. Smart.

    The fish came from when Christians were being killed for being Christian (yes, it happened). A person would draw half of the fish symbol in the sand, if the other person was Christian, they would draw the other half and then they could talk about Christianity. It was simple and easy to remember and reproduce, and the idea no-doubt came from the fact that Jesus promised to make his disciples "fishers of men."

    So now you should understand that, and then about kosher. Jesus was a pretty radical guy. He didn't adhere very much to the Jewish traditions. He showed that you didn't have to follow all the rules to get into heaven.

    I'm not saying that's what you should believe, I'm only saying that you should know what you're talking about before you talk about it.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  67.  
    identicon
    another someone, Jun 26th, 2006 @ 12:50pm

    Hey Christians

    If you are offended by the negative comments toward Christians on this page, you should complain to the game manufacturer, as they are the ones who are loudly and publicly purporting to represent Christianity.

    If you are not offended by the business practices of Left Behind Games, then you are just as much of a hypocrite as they are and fully deserve the negative comments on this page.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  68.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 27th, 2006 @ 1:09pm

    Re: Hey Christians

    mmm .... thanks for that little slice of judgement ... did you copy that from a chain letter??

    You mke a good point - take the beef to the people responsible - but there's no need for the heavy-handedness...

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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