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Culture

by Mike Masnick

Tue, Oct 11th 2005 8:20am





Because Without The Internet, Suicide Would Never Happen

from the fighting-the-symptoms dept

It's absolutely true that stories of online suicide pacts or discussion groups represent a fairly gruesome subject, but that doesn't mean that getting rid of them solves the real problem. As Australia has done before, the UK is now freaking out about suicide websites and is considering making them illegal while also pushing for search engines to manually change their search results to hide these sites. This is the wrong way of looking at it. It's hiding the problem and pretending it doesn't exist rather than dealing with the real issue of depression. While blaming the internet for suicide is an easy cop out, it's missing the fact that these people have real issues and need help. In fact, there's a good chance that banning these sites simply isolates some people even more, which could increase the risk of suicide. All of the horror stories about these sites like to pick up on the fact that people visited these sites before committing suicide -- but that shouldn't be a surprise. If someone is thinking about suicide, it seems quite likely that they would do some research online first. There's nothing wrong with suicide help groups working with search engines to provide prevention and help links as public service announcements in traditional ad spots, or working to make their own sites more relevant on standard suicide searches. However, simply banning these sites, pushing them down in the search results and pretending they don't exist does little to get at the root cause of why these people are committing suicide. It's hiding the problem, not solving it.

35 Comments | Leave a Comment..


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  1.  

    Suicide Predators

    identicon
    dorpus, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 8:46am

    It's not so simple. There are perverts who frequent these suicide sites, lure the (usually teenage) suicidal kids into a false pact, and sexually assault them. Or there are suicidal adults who figure they might as well take down as many people as possible, and organize big pacts. Or murderers who organize the big pacts, leave everyone dead, and walk away. All these things have happened in Japan. One sicko was recently arrested for killing 4 kids this way, and keeping trophies.


    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  2.  

    Re: Suicide Predators

    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 8:51am

    predictable

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  3.  

    survival of the fitest

    identicon
    glad_aboutit, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 9:39am

    suicide helps thin the herd of weaklings, and prevent further breeding.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  4.  

    Re: survival of the fitest

    identicon
    fantababy, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 9:46am

    People are turning towards suicide as they are unable to face the problems in life. Also they resort to suicide only when there is nobody to listen to their woes.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  5.  

    Re: survival of the fitest

    identicon
    bokou, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 9:47am

    wow you are heartless...

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  6.  

    Re: Suicide Predators

    identicon
    Me, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 9:47am

    mmmm...teenage girls...

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  7.  

    No Subject Given

    identicon
    CanOfSpam, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 9:49am

    Check out the current Supreme Court - one of the first things that happened was to poke around in the issue of assisted suicide in Oregon.
    They're blowing everything out of proportion. People aren't offing themselves in droves up there. It's to help out the terminally ill who make a conscious decision.

    Most of this is religious-backed asshattery.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  8.  

    Dead on!

    identicon
    Steven Border, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 9:59am

    That is dead on guys! Those heartless bastards in the UK need to get off their asses and do something, not hide the problem.
    I'm in IT in the Financial Services industry and some of our main IT guys in ATL do the exact same thing. The try and tell you different things to steer you away, but it doesn't help with the fact that the customers can't call in becasue the IVR is in a loop or goes no where... Thanks for the "uncommon sense". I needed that!
    border

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  9.  

    Re: Dead on!

    identicon
    yuck, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 10:13am

    your website is quite disturbing - my, how you seem to love yourself.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  10.  

    the terminally ill

    identicon
    stormin, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 10:23am

    Most terminally ill patients who express a desire to commit suicide are also clinically depressed. Clinical depression can be triggered by traumatic experiences (like gettig cancer). It can also be treated. For the record at least in Virginia terminally ill means "a disease from which yo will never recover" not "a disease that will kill you" - so a lot of people with terminal illnesses or handicaps have a lot of life to live. So allowing the terminally ill access to physician-assisted suicide is not a kindness, it is discrimination. (Allowing them to refuse treatment, on the other hand, is just common sense. That's been the law since medieval times, literally).

    It is illegal to commit suicide. This is the kind of law that kids make fun of - what's the point? The point, as near as I can tell, is to provide law enforcement the authority to stop people from killing themselves so that they can be helped. Why? Because when a person tries to committ suicide we (rightly) tend to see that not as a genuine desire to end one's own life, but as a cry for help.

    Bottom line: if a young, healthy person tries to jump off a building, we all say "don't jump!", but if an elderly person with cancer (or paralyzed below the waist, etc.) tries to jump off a building we are more likely to say "good for you" or "that'll help bring health care costs down". That's not mercy or equal rights, that's discrimination.

    (I say this as someone who has watched a loved one die of cancer and as someone who's lost a close friend to suicide).

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  11.  

    Re: the terminally ill

    identicon
    futile optimist, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 10:37am

    Your "bottom line" ignores quality of life. A young healthy person might wait a week or be given medication and be happy for the next 60 years. A elderly patient who can't be cured in a decade let alone a week and who cannot stand the pain or shame of living in their own body obviously has the right to choose not to live.

    How some people think they have the right to force others to live is beyond me. It is the pervasive religious swell in this previously secular country that permits this debate to even exist. Our forefathers would kill themselves in shame if they saw what we have wrought.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  12.  

    Re: survival of the fitest

    identicon
    glad_boutit, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 10:46am

    unable to face the problems in life=weakness
    nobody to listen to their woes=weakness
    we are better without weaklings=strong
    mother nature kick ass=deal with it

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  13.  

    Re: the terminally ill

    identicon
    only one way out, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 10:48am

    if an elderly person paralyzed below the waist, etc.) tries to jump off a building , then they have been cured

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  14.  

    Re: the terminally ill

    identicon
    Sam, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 10:57am

    You igrnore a couple of the most important issues in the Oregon case (see also: the Neatherlands, where doctor assisted suicide has been legal even longer). First, it is important to note that in Oregon, it's not as simple as saying "Hey Doc, I don't really feel right. Wanna throw me some potassium chloride, huh?" It's an involved process that requires 3 independent doctors to determine that you will NOT live more than 6 months, and a psychiatrist to determine that you are in sound mental health. The latter requirement is a bit of a sticking point, because if you have three doctors tell you that you have less than 6 months to live, and you're in incredible pain, you're obviously going to be more that a little depressed. Can you really fault someone facing 6 months of unrelenting pain that palliative care cannot abate (think bowel cancer) from looking for a more humane end? Who are you, a health, pain-free individual, to decide how someone with a terminal disease is to spend their last moments? Who are you, with opportunities and useful life ahead of you, to force pain on someone with nothing but suffering to look foreward to? If someone wants to stick it out till the end, more power to them. But if the prospect of adamant pain is too much to take, who are we, the healthy, to say what "too much" is?

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  15.  

    Re: the terminally ill

    identicon
    left to right, top to bottom, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 10:59am

    "It is the pervasive religious swell in this previously secular country that permits this debate to even exist. Our forefathers would kill themselves in shame if they saw what we have wrought."

    Read a little history. This is not a previously secular country. Moron. People like you who repeat untrue things help to perpetuate ignorance.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  16.  

    Re: survival of the fitest

    identicon
    Anonymous of Course, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 11:13am

    What a remarkably simplistic view. I can think of many examples where animals in the wild have cared for the infirm their pack or herd. Sometimes people commit suicide in order to avoid being a burden on society or their families, is that weakness? Often the most impressive measure of strength is restraint. We're better without sociopaths.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  17.  

    Re: the terminally ill

    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 11:14am

    So instead of insulting, try enlightening us...

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  18.  

    Re: Dead on!

    identicon
    no one, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 11:19am

    my god - what a freak!
    Are people really like this? This makes my want to kill myself out of pure shame.
    As a mantra:
    "This person is not a memeber of my species."
    "This person is not a memeber of my species."
    "This person is not a memeber of my species."
    "This person is not a memeber of my species."
    ...
    There I feel better already.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  19.  

    Re: Dead on!

    identicon
    no one, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 11:21am

    my god - what a freak! Are people really like this? This makes my want to kill myself out of pure shame. As a mantra: "This person is not a member of my species." "This person is not a member of my species." "This person is not a member of my species." "This person is not a member of my species." ... There I feel better already.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  20.  

    Re: Dead on!

    identicon
    no one, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 11:22am

    my god - what a freak! Are people really like this? This makes my want to kill myself out of pure shame. As a mantra: "This person is not a member of my species."
    "This person is not a member of my species."
    "This person is not a member of my species."
    "This person is not a member of my species."
    ... There I feel better already.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  21.  

    Re: the terminally ill

    identicon
    futile optimist, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 11:31am

    Insults from a right-wing religious fanatic who wants to control my life from cradle to grave? What a surprise. Not.

    Despite the current spin that your people have spread the last few years, the founding fathers intended this country to be governed by laws and not religion. Thanks to you and your friends in high office that long tradition is ending. Welcome to your new theocracy, AmerIran. I will be leaving it.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  22.  

    Re: the terminally ill

    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 11:58am

    Haven't you ever seen this image before? (Image caption for the firewalled work masses: "Arguing on the Internet is like competing in the Special Olympics... - picture of Down Syndrome child crossing a finish line - ... even if you win, you're still retarded.")

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  23.  

    Too large of a problem

    identicon
    Devin, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 12:22pm

    While it is true that such an act does not solve the problem, it does not help to have those sites so readily available. Visiting those sites will only give suicidal people the confidence to go through with it as they will learn how to do it right. The larger issue at hand for those contemplating suicide cannot be solved. It is broad and varied and can be related to something medical so getting to the bottom of the issue for the majority of a country is pretty impossible. Im not saying that support groups for such topics are useless or should not be readily available because every life saved is priceless. However, having such suicide sites is counterproductive to such an effort.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  24.  

    Re: the terminally ill

    identicon
    futile optimist, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 12:23pm

    I started arguing on BBSs in the 1980's when the most malevolent asshole I ever encountered was only anti-gay (admittedly virulently). Now the malevolence is unbounded and masquerades as conservativitism and patriotism (those words didn't used to mean anything like what they do now). It may be retarded but I still have to fight it.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  25.  

    Re: Too large of a problem

    identicon
    futile optimist, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 12:30pm

    How can you say so blithely "it does not help to have those sites so readily available"? How do you know that? Is there some study of how many suicidal people visit the sites, how many suicide afterward vs. how many find the strength to not, etc.? I doubt it. You really want to deny people a meeting place where they can air and share their feelings? People are just so smart these days - they seem to know exactly how to run everyone else's lives. Me, I just try to run my own. If depressed people feel better talking to one another and maybe even have their conversations monitored by someone who knows something about depression, maybe, just maybe, some good can come out of it. Vs. the totalitarian approach - burn the books, ban the sites, cut out the tongues of anyone who dares to talk plainly. Geesh.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  26.  

    Re: survival of the fitest

    identicon
    glad_as_can_be, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 12:51pm

    Just people who can't face their problems or woes
    should commit suicide, boo hoo hoo weakling.
    The "infirm" that accept help are not commiting suicide. Killing yourself to avoid being a burden on society or family is a strength. Sociopaths need love too. lighten up dude.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  27.  

    Re: survival of the fitest

    identicon
    Wow - Like the topic, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 1:14pm

    There are so many people out there who try to tell others what is right or what is wrong. This is not about helping those with the issues, this is about making people who strive for some purpose in their life have something to do.

    Fact, people who really want to kills themselves do it. They don't attempt it, they do it right. Those wanting attention attempt it. These are typically the same people on these sites.
    Why don't people wanting to help do someting instead of finding work of others and say "bad"?

    Hint, we all die. No matter how bad smoking is for you, how you should eat more fiber and less fat, or excercise like L Armstrong we all end up dead. Allowing people to do it gracefully, or on their terms, or when they feel necessary to end suffering is their right and should be respected.

    And before someone jumps in and asks have I ever had to make a life decision, I had to make the call to remove my 17 month old son from life support. It is the hardest decision you will ever have to make, so be understanding and allow others the right to make their own decisions. Don't try to legislate your morality into my life. Because you can put all the laws on the books you want, I will still be my own person.

    Cogito Ergos Sum

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  28.  

    Re: Too large of a problem

    identicon
    SuperBelt, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 1:15pm

    Researching to learn how to die efficiently is, at least in my opinion, better than doing it inefficiently or incorrectly and waking up permanently maimed, or as a vegetable, or perhaps even worse, suffering unspeakably for hours or days for a method that was unresearched and most likely unwise to work, not to mention the likelihood of the unconsidered suicide unknowingly endangering the lives of others who DON'T want to die who may find the suicide or otherwise be at the scene after the fact (such as if carbon monoxide is used in an unventilated area) with the lethal agent still present.
    Whether or not suicide sites are counterproductive to 'saving lives' or any other jingoistic aim is completely irrelevant. The fact is that some percentage of the population DO NOT want to live any longer (most, or at least many, being terminal patients suffering intractable and largely unmanageable pain), and hiding the information they need to most efficiently, painlessly and safely (for others) end their suffering is the very worst sort of stupdity.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  29.  

    Instead of wasting time trying to stop suicidal pe

    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 5:05pm

    Why don't you just be thankful that you don't have the psycological issues these people have developed to make them want to do such a thing to themselves.

    Why don't you just be thankful that you were not put through the horror that they were.

    Why don't you realize that you will never fully understand what pain they are feeling that would make them want to do such a thing.

    Whatever the reason, if a human being has the need to end their own life, just know that if you are trying to stop them, YOU HAVE NO FUCKING CLUE.


    The people visiting these sites are crying for help. If it wasn't a cry for help, they wouldn't still be alive and visiting these sites.

    THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO SAVE SOMEONE WHO HAS REACHED THEIR BREAKING POINT.

    Taking away informative websites such as these is NOT going to make the people forget their pain and suddenly want to live again.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  30.  

    Re: Suicide Predators

    identicon
    doubledoh, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 6:41pm

    It's not so simple. There are perverts who frequent these suicide sites, lure the (usually teenage) suicidal kids into a false pact, and sexually assault them. Or there are suicidal adults who figure they might as well take down as many people as possible, and organize big pacts. Or murderers who organize the big pacts, leave everyone dead, and walk away. All these things have happened in Japan. One sicko was recently arrested for killing 4 kids this way, and keeping trophies.

    Who cares. There are always going to be "ifs" and danger. That doesn't mean we should outlaw free speech. You can't make something illegal simply because it MIGHT lead to some other illegal behavior (well I suppose you can, but it isn't right). We should only punish malicious acts themselves, not the inspiration behind them. People are ultimately responsible for themselves. When are we going to learn that the government's job isn't to hand-hold us through life...it's only legitimate job is to protect our freedom.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  31.  

    Re: survival of the fitest

    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Oct 11th, 2005 @ 6:48pm

    Someone beats your grandmother to death: survival of the fittest.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  32.  

    That Meeting in Full

    identicon
    Pete Austin, Oct 12th, 2005 @ 1:15am

    Re: Ministers have considered outlawing sites which appears to encourage suicide, but were warned that new legislation could also criminalise fictional depictions of suicide and hinder academics and counsellors writing about the subject.

    Minister 1: "Let's take five seconds to consider outlawing these Websites"
    Minister 2: "Fine by me."
    Secretary: "This Sun editorial says it's a bad idea."
    Minister 1: "And we're done. Please issue a press release saying we considered it."
    Links to "Yes Minister"

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  33.  

    But wait ...

    identicon
    Newob, Oct 12th, 2005 @ 3:14am

    Now hold on a minute there. Have you stopped to consider the advantages of suicide?

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  34.  

    Re: survival of the fitest

    identicon
    glad_aboutit, Oct 12th, 2005 @ 5:42am

    You are missing the point, go fantasize about beating someone else's grandmother, mine is dead.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  35.  

    Why is it...

    identicon
    crystalattice, Oct 16th, 2005 @ 7:18pm

    that there is a huge battle over "right to life", whether it's for babies or terminally ill? The way I see it, the only right you have is the right to die. Prior to being born, you have no rights; technically you aren't even a citizen so you can't even claim a Constitutional right to anything. When you're living, it seems that if you want to kill yourself, you should be allowed to. It's the most fundamental thing you can control in life: your own life. If you have the cojones to off yourself, then more power to you.
    In a side note, the article mentioned "...people visited these sites prior to commiting suicide...". Well of course they did. They very well couldn't do it after they committed suicide. ;-)

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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