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Bleeding Edge

by Mike Masnick

Mon, Dec 13th 2004 10:28am





Doctors Don't Want You Buying Kidneys Online

from the wonder-why dept

A few years ago, the major connection between the internet and kidneys was that old urban legend that got passed around via email about people waking up with missing kidneys. Now, however, it appears that there's a (non-mythical) growing controversy about people searching for kidney donors online. Recently, there was a kidney transplant that was negotiated through an online donor matching service, but doctors are getting spooked about the ethics of such a system -- worried that people will start offering financial transactions as part of the donor process. However, those who are waiting on exceptionally long lists for a kidney that could save their lives, obviously look at the question in a different light. Either way, it does suggest that the current donor process has some problems and/or inefficiencies if donors and receivers are both migrating to outside systems.

46 Comments | Leave a Comment..


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  1.  

    Profiteering

    identicon
    dorpus, Dec 13th, 2004 @ 12:18pm

    Would we want doctors making bucks as kidney pimps? Even if they don't, a system where they could do so will undermine the patient-doctor relationship. We have enough ethical problems as it is -- a little bit of knowledge is dangerous when it comes to people presuming to be able to make the same judgements as physicians.


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  2.  

    Ethics, Shmethics

    identicon
    Steve Mueller, Dec 13th, 2004 @ 1:04pm

    Come on. It's not like these people are going to back-alley doctors from the Bahamas without medical licenses. Even if the person finds a willing donor, physicians will still need to test for compatibility and do the surgery.

    As for the risk that money will change hands, so what? Abortion (by some accounts baby killing) is legal. Parents with a sick child are having children specifically to serve as donors for sick one. Drug companies take samples from patients, create drugs and make lots of money without the patient seeing a dime. Why shouldn't an organ donor be able to make some money? Yes, I realize that some desperate people might sell their organs, but people sell sperm and blood plasma now.

    The worst aspect, as far as I can see, is that "more deserving" recipients might lose out to people paying for organs. I'd hate to see Larry Ellison or Bill Gates get an organ because they could pay that would have otherwise gone to a sick child, but that's capitalism.

    If we don't want people getting money for saving people's lives, why should doctors get paid, either?

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  3.  

    Re: Ethics, Shmethics

    identicon
    dorpus, Dec 13th, 2004 @ 1:24pm

    So you want to make it easier for people claiming to be "doctors" telling people that they found a match? Or for real doctors who are not qualified phrenologists to become kidney traders, Wall Street style? How about some cheap kidneys from China and India, just ignore the coronavirus-induced inflammation....

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  4.  

    the problem

    identicon
    wig, Dec 13th, 2004 @ 2:25pm

    the "problem" or "inefficiency" with the current kideny donor system (here in canada at least) is that the rich have to wait in the same line as the poor for a kidney donor. they dont like waiting, so they 'buy pass'(haha) the system, and pay someone in a third world country 5 grand for their kidney. here we call it 'transplant tourism.'

    whether or not this is ethical is up for debate. personally, as a canadian, i think someone rich who doesnt like waiting for our public health care can renounce their canadian citizenship and move to the states or to one of those third world countries and enjoy the many benefits/shortcomings of a private health care system. they want to live with the benefits of canadian socialist government, without the shortcomings of private healthcare. i say you can't havee it both ways.

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  5.  

    net transplants

    identicon
    Greg S, Dec 13th, 2004 @ 3:08pm

    As someone who has had a kidney transplant, I have a bit more knowledge on this than most. People who wait for a cadaver transplant, as I did, can wait many years, though it's highly dependent on blood type and state (States that have removed motercycle helmet laws have become better bets if you are waiting for a transplant, for example).

    Anyway, there has long been controvery over whether to accept non-family members as donors. With waiting lists getting longer and longer, there is a greater need for live donors. Doctors do psychological tests on all people donating kidneys since they worry about psychological pressure (as well as money). They expect donors to have strong ties to the person needing the kidney. When people find donors over the net, there obviously are no strong ties, and doctors are automatically suspicious of motives. However, they should not automatically assume there's money involved. Every live donor means another person gets a kidney they ordinarily wouldn't have gotten through the system.

    What really needs to be done is a much better job of getting folks to donate when they die. Everyone should at least be required to say yes or no, and perhaps you should have to have said yes to get a kidney when you need one.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  6.  

    Re: Ethics, Shmethics

    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Dec 13th, 2004 @ 8:08pm


    Actually, when Bill Gates (for example) buys a kidney, he is buying it from someone who would not have otherwise donated it, which means that in buying his kidney, he is not taking the donated kidney, and therefore it will still be available for the person who cannot afford to pay for one.

    Buying organs puts MORE of them on the market, and makes things better for everyone. Does Bill get his kidney before the destitute child? Probably, but they both get a kidney, instead of only one of them getting the only one available… And besides, since when has money not bought speed and comfort? And why shouldn’t it? That is what it is for.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  7.  

    Re: the problem

    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Dec 13th, 2004 @ 8:10pm

    Of course you can have it both ways - IF you can afford it. That is what $$$ buys.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  8.  

    Buying kidneys?

    identicon
    aviator202, Dec 13th, 2004 @ 9:21pm

    Ahhhhhh, folks? There is one itty bitty problem with selling organs. You know those organs you have? You know, your eyes, kidneys, lungs, etc. and all that stuff you are using right now.......and probably want to keep on using? See, if you can't sell organs under any circumstances, your precious organs are economically worthless. However, if you can now sell an organ, any organ, for a profit........Guess what happens? All your stuff that is now worthless becomes worth a lot !!!! And like we now have gangs who steal autos....well, your eyes may be their next target. That is why organ sales MUST remain illegal. It protects all of us healthy folks !!!!<br>is why organs sales must be

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  9.  

    Buying kidneys?

    identicon
    aviator202, Dec 13th, 2004 @ 9:22pm

    Ahhhhhh, folks? There is one itty bitty problem with selling organs. You know those organs you have? You know, your eyes, kidneys, lungs, etc. and all that stuff you are using right now.......and probably want to keep on using? See, if you can't sell organs under any circumstances, your precious organs are economically worthless. However, if you can now sell an organ, any organ, for a profit........Guess what happens? All your stuff that is now worthless becomes worth a lot !!!! And like we now have gangs who steal autos....well, your eyes may be their next target. That is why organ sales MUST remain illegal. It protects all of us healthy folks !!!!<br>

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  10.  

    Organ Gangs

    identicon
    Steve Mueller, Dec 14th, 2004 @ 1:53am

    I've read Larry Niven's stories (like "The Defenseless Dead") that dealt with organ banks, but I still find aviator's organ gangs a bit of a scare tactic for two reasons.

    First, buying stolen merchandise is currently illegal, but people still steal things and sell them. Organs, requiring extreme skill to make use of, are obviously somewhat different, but don't kid yourself that the laws aren't circumvented.

    Second, if somebody rich was on an organ donation list, what (other than morals) prevents them from hiring a gang who starts killing people with compatible organs? If he doesn't get the first victim's organ, he has them kill again until he does get one. He's not paying directly for the organ, but the effect is the same. Well, actually, it's worse, because the "donor" is possibly dead and definitely doesn't get the money for his organ, plus there could be more than one victim.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  11.  

    Re: Organ Gangs

    identicon
    Matt, Dec 14th, 2004 @ 5:57am

    didn't Michael Connelly write a book along those lines..

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  12.  

    Re: the problem

    identicon
    me, Dec 14th, 2004 @ 6:32am

    "...i think someone rich who doesnt like waiting for our public health care can renounce their canadian citizenship"

    Yeah, they're already doing that...It's called the Brain-Drain

    "...the benefits of canadian socialist government"

    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!
    stop...you're killing me..no seriously...the soviet style hospital "bread lines" are literally KILLING ME!

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  13.  

    buying kidneys online, etc...

    identicon
    freddie montana, Dec 14th, 2004 @ 7:12am

    If governments would do their job, (i.e: enforce contracts), then whether a person sell a kidney, or any other body part should be a non issue. Similarily, if they should die from the procedure: well, you get the story...
    It plainly states that government's job is to promote life, liberty, etc: NOT protect it: else they wouldn't have a military. That is by far the biggest waster of life on the planet...
    From the Great Lakes...

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  14.  

    Re: buying kidneys online, etc...

    identicon
    aileen, May 27th, 2005 @ 10:21pm

    I am a person with 4 grandchildren sleeping on the floor. I am poor and have litt;e education. The only thing of value I have is that I have the rarest blood in the world. Why shouldn't I be allowed to sell an organ or bone marrow to increase their quality of life and educate them?

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  15.  

    Re: the problem

    identicon
    KEVIN SELL, Oct 6th, 2005 @ 2:26pm

    I,M A HEALTHY 35 YEAR OLD MALE. I'M NOT IN DIRE STRAIGHTS FOR CASH BUT AM WANTING COMPENSATED FOR MY KIDNEY DONATION. CALL/ 417-935-5051 ASK FOR KEVIN.

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  16.  

    compensation for kidney donation

    identicon
    Nieuwe Nier NU, Oct 7th, 2007 @ 3:41pm

    Everyone has the right for decisions about his organs.If you visit the docter you have this right. Why not to sell organs under the condition that no one forces you to do so. In Holland we have a sadistic government: every year again 200 kidneypatients from the waitinglist die. The government refuses to organise a demand compensating donor system.But it punishes too offering kidneys for money. And a big foundation for kidney-patients called the 'Nierstichting'(social income € 15 mln pro year) plays the role of loyal dog of this goverment.Only sweet words for the patients, but in fact the direction spends all the money for status and own income (€ 14.000,-a month) And the 200 dying every year is not their business!

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  17.  

    can i sell my kiddney

    identicon
    ajmal, Oct 19th, 2007 @ 5:12pm

    hi i am Ajmal and i have O+ blode and i wantid to give my kiddney to some one who can help me for my children bater futur becose i am verry poor person and i have a lots of problam in life. that wye i take a disision for this thing. riply me. thanks ajmal

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  18.  

    kideny doneted

    identicon
    vishal, Oct 30th, 2007 @ 3:20am

    i am vishal. can i doneted kideny to some other person when these persone of my some blood group.b+

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  19.  

    i need money! Want to be a kidney donor O+

    identicon
    tammy sampson, Jan 1st, 2008 @ 8:38pm

    i would like to provide my 3 children w/ a better life. and i understand that there is a long waiting list, just about impossible to reach acceptance. But, i am willing to donate for a certain price. And would also have to have all medical treatments taking care of. I am very serious about this.I don't mean to sound ugly but, i there is money to provide my service. I am very healthy or than a little over weight. I would like for anyone that is serious about my donating, to email me with info.on patient or self.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  20.  

    i need money! Want to be a kidney donor O+

    identicon
    tammy sampson, Jan 1st, 2008 @ 8:46pm

    i would like to provide my 3 children w/ a better life. and i understand that there is a long waiting list, just about impossible to reach acceptance. But, i am willing to donate for a certain price. And would also have to have all medical treatments taking care of. I am very serious about this.I don't mean to sound ugly but, i knowthere is money toprovide my services.i am healthy or than a little over weight. I would like for anyone that is serious about my donating, to email me with info.on patient or self.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  21.  

    i need money! Want to be a kidney donor O+

    identicon
    tammy sampson, Jan 1st, 2008 @ 8:48pm

    i would like to provide my 3 children w/ a better life. and i understand that there is a long waiting list, just about impossible to reach acceptance. But, i am willing to donate for a certain price. And would also have to have all medical treatments taking care of. I am very serious about this.I don't mean to sound ugly but, i knowthere is money toprovide my services.i am healthy or than a little over weight. I would like for anyone that is serious about my donating, to email me with info.on patient or self.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  22.  

    Re: kideny doneted

    identicon
    akriti, Jun 26th, 2008 @ 8:34am

    I want to contact u as I m in need of a kidney donor for my uncle with B+ blood group if u can help...Please reply as soon as possible in very urgent need mail me or call on 9911640838,9350513395,9839150505,9891804252 plz urgent.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  23.  

    Re: Re: kideny doneted

    identicon
    Jennifer, Sep 5th, 2008 @ 4:23pm

    I am B+ healthy as an ox in good physical condition however how much are you willing to pay?

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  24.  

    The Dutch Kidney Foundation (

    identicon
    Nieuwe Nier NU, Sep 26th, 2008 @ 4:26am

    The Dutch people doesn't like to donate organs after death. There is a Minister of Health, named Mr. Ab Klink, who represents this sentiment. He doesn't want to change the non-donation system in a positive donation system like in Belgium, Spain or Austria, where few organ-needers die.
    The consequence of the Dutch non-system is a waiting-list for kidney-demanders from which every year die 200 patients. It is forbidden for kidney-patients in Holland to get a new kidney outside the waiting-list-system.
    Are'nt they organised then? Yes, they are represented by the Nierstichting (Kidney-foundation, yearly income from the charitas 18.000.000 euro).However this foundation spends this money mainly in a for the kidney-patient from today irrelevant way.Such as director's incomes, luxury-offices,60 expensive websites, long-term projects for mechanical and biological kidney-remplacants etc. This takes at least 15 years.
    People from the waiting list in surviving mood try to get "fresh" kidneys from family and friends. And there is a category that flight in the international kidney-commerce, often runned by the organ maffia. "Hey look, I see once more a dead kidney-donor behind the hedge". By refusing good demand- covering donation systems one promotes the jungle of life and death. And that with a potential of enough donor-organs!
    Thank you Nierstichting, thank you minister Ab Klink! That's we -Nieuwe Nier NU- fight against.You -the Nierstichting and gouvernment- are the ennemies of the kidney-patient.Which are factual differences between your way of doing and that of islamic terrorists?
    Best regards, Nierpatientencollectief "Nieuwe Nier NU" See also the YouTube-link in the URL for the protest-song (in dutch)

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  26.  

    kidney

    identicon
    tim, Feb 5th, 2009 @ 2:07pm

    I am a 46yr old,white,healthy male non-drinker, I am not selling my kidney , but rather donating one,however, I would like a generous (gift) for my time/loss of income/pain/transportation/ and all medical costs.my blood type 0- serious inquirers only. you can e-mail me at [email protected]

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  27.  

    i need money

    identicon
    mustafa shujaat khan, Apr 10th, 2009 @ 9:42pm

    ineed money so i donate my one kideny urgently.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  28.  

    Re: Re: kideny doneted

    identicon
    mustafa shujaat khan, Apr 11th, 2009 @ 3:01am

    ineed money so i donate ny one kidney

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  29.  

    donating or selling my kidney

    identicon
    danny, Aug 28th, 2009 @ 5:49am

    I'm a single dad 38 year old. I don't do drug drink or smoke. I'm very healthy. I don't know my blood type, but I like to donate one of my kidney. I live in las vegas nv.
    my phone #702-764-5991 in return if you could help out with the medical expenses and finacial for my time. please contact me at the phone above.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  30.  

    sell kidney

    identicon
    miguel, Oct 21st, 2009 @ 8:31am

    i need to sell my kidney or part of my liver,blood type o+,really healty, i can travel and i'm young,i really do need economic help my price is 300,000 usd but at this point i accept almost any offer please contact me [email protected]

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  32.  

    i am willing to donate my kidney.....

    identicon
    daniel, Jan 5th, 2010 @ 11:59pm

    hi.. i am willing to donate my kidney asap to anybody. i am B+ . sent me air tiket. male, 30, non- drinker, non-smoker. healty.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  33.  

    Re: Buying kidneys?

    identicon
    Shocked at the stupid, Feb 20th, 2010 @ 1:36am

    That's the biggest bunch of crap I have ever heard, talk about circular logic.

    Scarcity is what makes something worth a lot. Making it legal to buyt and sell organs would in no way create more crime. in fact it would reduce it.

    If people could freely buy and sell organs, they would be worth far less, as they would be more readily available. It is the black market buying and selling, because it is illegal, that creates the scarcity, which creates the high value.

    Also, who the hell is stealing eyes, and how would making selling organs legal lead to eye theft? What nonsense. Firstly, eyes are needed to see, and it's pretty fair to say no one is going to be able to walk into a hospital with eyes in a baggies and sell them. Nor would any bio firms be able to buy and sell such organs in such a way.

    Sorry, but your reasoning is completely unsound.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  34.  

    Willing to Donate Kidney

    identicon
    NathanRahl, Feb 20th, 2010 @ 1:43am

    Hello, I am an American, and not a desperate one either, nor am I from some poor 3rd world developing country. I am male, 37 years old, life long athlete and physical trainer, interested in donating my kidney, for compensation. Cost, 200,000 American dollars. You pay for all hospital bills, two way airfare, as well as aftercare, none of which comes out of the initial 200,000. I will expect 1/4 upfront before I leave, another 1/4 when I arrive, and the remaining balance deposited directly before the surgery. This is all to protect me so as to be sure the recipient lives up to their agreed upon obligation. This is for real, as am I. My email is [email protected] Please only those who are serious need contact me, and the amount if non-negotiable.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  35.  

    ready to donate MY 1 kidney

    identicon
    bhogle, Jul 24th, 2010 @ 3:25am

    hello i m 31 year old male, good healthy, non smoker , non alcoholic, my blood group is (A RH NEGATIVE), ANY NEEDFUL

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  36.  

    i m ready to , donate my 1 kidney

    identicon
    BHOGLE, Jul 24th, 2010 @ 3:30am

    hello , i m ready to donate my 1 kidney , i m 31 year mail, i m healyhy & non smoker , non alcoholic, my blood group is (A RH NEGATIVE) ANY NEEDFUL PLEASE CONTACT ON MY E MAIL ID, [email protected]

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  37.  

    Kidney

    identicon
    Rithesh Chandrashekaran, Jul 31st, 2010 @ 1:25am

    Hello sir, I'm Rithesh from Kerala. Graduated, Aged 26, My Blood group is O- (O Negative), non smoker, non drinker, Height 168cm, Weight 62kg. I would like to donate one of my kidney.
    Presently I'm in a financial crisis and I wan't to save my family. I would feel like being blessed if I could help somebody by giving my kidney and also save my family by this. Please contact if interested.
    www.chandraji.rithu@gmail.com

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  38.  

    O-ve / O Negative

    identicon
    Rithesh Chandrashekaran, Jul 31st, 2010 @ 1:33am

    Hello sir, I'm Rithesh from Kerala. Graduated, Aged 26, My Blood group is O-ve (O Negative), non smoker, non drinker, Height 168cm, Weight 62kg. I would like to donate one of my kidney.
    Presently I'm in a financial crisis and I wan't to save my family. I would feel like being blessed if I could help somebody by giving my kidney and also save my family by this. Please contact if interested.
    [email protected]

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  40.  

    need help for kidney treatment

    identicon
    prasanna, Oct 6th, 2010 @ 5:52am

    i m poor
    i had kidney problame.i cant afford expences .pls send money to my account to save my life online donation can be made to ac no 11203445440
    state bank of india

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  42.  

    need to donate my one O+ve kidney

    identicon
    marius, Feb 18th, 2011 @ 5:31am

    i am from ernakulam in kerala(india).i need to donate my one O+ve kidney becouse of the financial problem. please urgently contact me at this email address with your phone nos.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  43.  

    Want to sale my kidney

    identicon
    Anil, Apr 19th, 2011 @ 12:33am

    I am 42yrs. non smoker non drinker A+

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  46.  

    Want to sale my kidney

    identicon
    Discreet227, Oct 9th, 2011 @ 12:36am

    I am really poor. I want to sell my kidney. Email Discreet227 for more info.

    [ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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